[email protected]

In a message dated 2/10/05 10:05:11 PM, pamsoroosh@... writes:

<< I did not succeed, really, in making my visions of the perfect
lifestyle come true. I have many regrets - there are many things I wish
I'd done way better. >>

There's a topic open about just this thing at unschooling.com. The question
was what we wished we had known sooner.

It's very cool and is here:
http://www.unschooling.com/discus/messages/23/1952.html

I would paste the text in here but I'm afraid it will mess up what I have, so
I'll put it in another e-mail.

Sandra

[email protected]

By Jenny on Wednesday, February 9, 2005 - 03:11 pm:

I saw a book on Amazon by this title. Haven't read it yet, but I thought it
would an interesting thread.

What things do you wish you'd known ... when your kids were younger? ... when
you first began homeschooling?

Jenny
------------------------------------------------------------------------
By homeskulmom on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 07:16 am:

Good thread!

I wish I'd known...

that some normal babies don't sleep through the night EVER.

that there's no such thing as putting a baby on a schedule.

that being high strung about mentally stimulating a baby can
cause a high-strung, overstimulated child.

that it's all right to sit quietly and do nothing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Treehuggermama (Treehuggermama) on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 07:24 am:

I wish I'd known...

that how I treated my children is how they would treat others. (I know, you
would think this would be an easy one, but it wasn't for me. sigh.)

that school would hurt their ability to love learning

that freedom to choose was the best way to learn self control
------------------------------------------------------------------------
By cmbell (Cmbell) on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 07:55 am:

i wish I'd known...

That I didn't have to send them to school - ever (too late, they were already
there too long)

That the best learning takes place far away from a school building :)

Luckily I'm still learning too, so this list will grow and grow. Thanks for
the thoughts!!
Cathy
------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Bugsmom on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 09:05 am:

I wish I'd known...

that vaccinations don't have to be "routine"

that there are other options to ear infections besides antibiotics

Glad I knew that unschooling existed though - that's opened up lots of other
avenues of thought
------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Ren Allen (Ren) on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 10:09 am:

"that some normal babies don't sleep through the night EVER. "

Same here.

I wish I'd known how to exude peace even when faced with difficult moments.

I wish I'd known that children don't need to be taught.

I wish I'd known that television wouldn't harm them.

I wish I'd known that heaven was accessible right here, right now and that
religion was only tearing my soul in pieces.

Ren
------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Anne O (Anneo) on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 10:40 am:

I wish I'd known that I only needed to use my voice at times of injustice ~
no...I wish I had known that I HAD a voice that was of value...because the only
voices I ever heard were everybody else's...

~ Anne...who found her voice (inner and outer!) and uses it now...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Sandra Dodd (Sandradodd) on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 10:56 am:

I wish I had known how helpful it would have been to go to La Leche League
BEFORE Kirby was born. I waited until he was four months old, and those four
months would have been WAY easier and better had I found people who could help me
before I had a baby, and before I was having some problems. Things got better
the moment I found others who had been there and could help me.


That wouldn't be an unschooling story, except that it was attachment
parenting that became unschooling for us. The things we learned about learning and
choices and freedom that transferred so easily to academic areas, we learned with
eating, sleeping, and daily choices with babies and toddlers.

I would LOVE to have been able to roll back four months and give Kirby a
closer and more peaceful beginning. He slept with us a lot, and I tried to nurse
him more, but I just needed more coaching and to be around people who were
familiar with kids like Kirby.

Sandra
------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Gippetto (Gippetto) on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 11:42 am:

ah.. the nursing thing.
To have not listened to my mother with my first born when
she said that nursing was a "filthy thing.." ( I nursed the
other 8)

I wish I had known how fast time would fly.. and how fast
they would grow.. (my oldest is 25)

I wish I had known I was smart and that I had a voice.

I wish that I knew that I didn't have to send my kids to
school to suffer the abuse.. I wish I knew that the system is
not so right and powerful.

I wish I knew how many choices there really are in life...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Sallyb on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 12:45 pm:

I wish I had listened to my heart sooner.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Tammy on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 01:17 pm:

Things I wish I would have known , well , the list could go on and on....and
on , but...

I wish I would have known how to be the kind of parent my children needed me
to be , not the kind of parent others thought I should be. ( Im trying now ! )

I wish I would have known scheduals and control don't make a family.

I wish I would have known to just trust my children and myself , but that ,
im learning too :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
By momtojosh on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 02:18 pm:

I wish I would of known about unschoolong when my youngest was sent off to K.
and not finding out about it when she was 13.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
By momtojosh on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 02:19 pm:

i meant my oldest
oops
------------------------------------------------------------------------
By lr_cottrell on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 07:17 pm:

I wish I'd known, too, that "school would hurt their ability to love
learning". I never would have sent my daughter to school, and I'm deeply sorry that I
did.
I wish I'd known that it's okay to be who I am and ok to be the kind of
parent that I want to be. I could have spared years of heartache and the
difficulties implicit in living outside of myself, living someone else's life.

This is a great thread; great thoughts and inspirations here.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
By wesunschool on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 07:20 pm:

I wish I'd known (earlier)

that control over my own life doesn't equate to a clean house...

that a messy, lived in house means creative energy is alive...

that my intuition is my most loyal friend...

and

I wish I'd known I could treat everyone as if this could possibly be the last
moment we'll spend together...I'd be kinder, I'd let go of presumption, I'd
hug more deeply...

Thankfully...I am always Knowing more -NOW!

kim
------------------------------------------------------------------------
By wesunschool on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 07:25 pm:

and another...

i wish i'd known my son was always right in his perception of his former
teacher...

i wish that i would have believed him--sooner,
and he could have been shielded years of her chipping away at his esteem...

i wish i listened deeper back then...

kim
------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Thea LaCross on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 08:31 pm:

I too wish I'd known that my child didn't need me to control him, however
gently, in order to teach him to control himself. I wish I'd known how rich life
can be when I trust my child and myself. I'm so glad I can begin to know, and
keep knowing this, now. All of you on this board have contributed enormously
to that, for which I am deeply grateful.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
By dragonfly (Dragonfly) on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 11:18 am:

I wish I'd known how much easier parenting is when you trust your kids, and I
wish I'd known that you really can flip a mental switch and say, "From today,
I trust my kids."

I wish I'd known how much more I would trust *myself* once I started to trust
my kids!

I wish I'd known about positive discipline (at the very least) from the
beginning so I wouldn't have spent a couple of years being so hard on my oldest
daughter.

I wish I'd known not only that learning happens all the time, but that school
can do tremendous damage to the desire to learn. I hesitated over sending my
kids to school, but my hesitation sprang from emotional concerns. If I'd been
able to add "academic" concerns to those at the time, I might never have sent
them.

Most of all I wish I'd known about the peace, joy, familial bonds, and, yes,
learning that comes from unschooling.

df

Julie

I couldn't resist responding to this post to thank Sandra for sharing it.
I'm still in my two-week "listening period" and am enjoying all your
conversations. Actually, I think I was a member of this list a couple of
years ago after leaving my job as a teacher!

I'm expecting my first child in April, and all the advice in the posts meant
so much to me. I promise to quiet down and listen some more now. :-)

Julie (who can be "Julie in NY" if there are multiple Julies here)
________________________________________________
"The founding fathers in their wisdom decided that children were an
unnatural strain on their parents. So they provided jails called school,
equipped with tortures called education." 
-John Updike
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingourselves/  

Kelle Kjeer

Julie wrote:



>>>>>I'm expecting my first child in April, and all the advice in the posts
meant
so much to me.<<<<







To read this before you have children, and to take it into your heart and
your life � what a gift to your firstborn!



I second the thanks to Sandra for posting all the �I wishes��. I don�t feel
quite so alone now.



Kelle







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-=-
>I'm expecting my first child in April, and all the advice in the posts meant
>so much to me. -=-

Go to La Leche League!

April is any minute now, and babies don't have a calendar in there.

Sandra

Julie

Sandra wrote:
<<Go to La Leche League! >>

Just went to my first meeting last month. So nice to be able to see so many
nursing mamas and learn how it all works! I’ve also been going to a local
attachment parenting group with my husband Joe, so we're feeling very
supported in our decisions these days. :-D

Julie
______________________________________________
"The founding fathers in their wisdom decided that children were an
unnatural strain on their parents. So they provided jails called school,
equipped with tortures called education." 
-John Updike
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingourselves/  

[email protected]

-=-I’ve also been going to a local
attachment parenting group with my husband Joe, so we're feeling very
supported in our decisions these days. :-D
-=-

I never knew until VERY lately (last week or so <g>)that there was such a thing as "attachment parenting groups" other than the mentions it gets at La Leche League meetings and in conjunction with other things.

What I heard was not encouraging, either. Seemed the "attachment" was kinda one way. <G>

For me, with La Leche League, it was encouraged that we consider ourselves our children's partners, and that we read The Continuum Concept, and not try to press our kids to be separated from us until they were good and ready and wanted on their own to walk away a ways or to stay at someone else's house. Sure enough, that worked! It worked really, really well.

Issues of TV and plastic toys and organic juice and t-shirts with Disney characters on them never entered into it, and as it was a pretty simple philosophical point (not a TON of points, one basic principle) nobody could have worked those in and still called it "attachment parenting."

I hope the group you're going to isn't as weird as that.

Sure, within the larger La Leche League world I was hanging out with (several leaders of several groups) there were some "organicer than thou" and "oh no, I would never buy from Discovery Toys because they use plastics" types. But they knew and the rest of us knew that was a personal preference not directly related to nursing babies and attachment parenting.

And what's TRULY weird is when people treat it as a temporary philosophy, to be thrown off when a kid is three or five years old.

Once we trusted Kirby and he trusted us, nothing was going to induce us to break that bond if we didn't have to, and that made unschooling a snap.

Sandra

Jenny Altenbach

SandraDodd@... wrote:

> -=-I’ve also been going to a local
> attachment parenting group with my husband Joe, so we're feeling very
> supported in our decisions these days. :-D
> -=-
>
> I never knew until VERY lately (last week or so <g>)that there was
> such a thing as "attachment parenting groups" other than the mentions
> it gets at La Leche League meetings and in conjunction with other things.
>
> What I heard was not encouraging, either. Seemed the "attachment" was
> kinda one way. <G>

I am very much an attachment parent and it is because of AP that
Unschooling is the obvious way to go for us. I would never dissuade
anyone from learning about and practicing attachment parenting. But I
want to address the ways that attachment parenting and unschooling can
sometimes be at odds with each other, at least in the parent's mind
(they are not at odds with eachother in reality, IMO).

>
> For me, with La Leche League, it was encouraged that we consider
> ourselves our children's partners, and that we read The Continuum
> Concept, and not try to press our kids to be separated from us until
> they were good and ready and wanted on their own to walk away a ways
> or to stay at someone else's house. Sure enough, that worked! It
> worked really, really well.

Yes, this is what AP is all about in its purest sense, and this is the
single concept of AP. Bed sharing, breastfeeding on demand, babywearing
in a sling or soft carrier, responding to baby's cries, etc. I think
where things get muddy is when you look at the different kinds of people
who are practicing AP. Anyone who does it is necessarily the kind of
person who is willing to think outside the box and go against the
mainstream. So by default a large proportion of those who practice AP
are also against the mainstream in other aspects of their lives: they
are often ultra-crunchy, politically very left, often involved in
spiritual pursuits outside the mainstream, concerned about sustainable
living, and so on.

So when their kids are babies it's all good because the babies pretty
much have to go along with the philosophy of the parents, which, in our
case, is very heavily influenced by the excesses of our culture, our
disproportionate use of resources, and the military-industrial complex
that drives our society (our choices are based on our opinions about
these things--so for example I don't shop at Wal-Mart because I don't
want to support them, I buy free-trade coffee, etc). I know many other
AP parents who share these values.

>
> Issues of TV and plastic toys and organic juice and t-shirts with
> Disney characters on them never entered into it, and as it was a
> pretty simple philosophical point (not a TON of points, one basic
> principle) nobody could have worked those in and still called it
> "attachment parenting."


So yes, some AP groups may have this kind of flavor. It's very much the
Mothering Magazine kind of thing--touting all natural toys, organic
foods, cloth diapers, alternative medicine, and abhoring commercialism,
TV, video games, and junk food. And I *have* felt judged in certain
circumstances because I made choices that were not as "alternative" as
others when our babies were young. ***The thing is, many of these AP
moms are complete control freaks because they are trying so hard to
"protect" their kids from mainstream culture. That's where it conflicts
with unschooling.***

What I have come to understand is that MY philosophy in life is just
MINE--and that at 4 and 1 my kids can't possibly feel the same way that
I do about Wal-Mart or sweatshops or oil wars. It's been hard to realize
that and let go, but I'm so glad I did. In fact, I let my subscription
to Mothering expire because I just don't have any use for it any more.
Now I buy it as a shower gift for new moms, becasue I do think they are
right on about baby care (although they refuse to print an article on
Elimination Communication, which is really wierd).

>
>
>
> And what's TRULY weird is when people treat it as a temporary
> philosophy, to be thrown off when a kid is three or five years old.


Yeah, that's what gets me too. There's a lady who I met in La Leche
League, who is very AP/crunchy but has gone the Waldorf route and her
kids get no TV, no sugar, very few toys, and she is very short tempered
with them when they complain about it. There's another one I know who
was a huge influence on me (introduced me to extended breastfeeding,
bought me my first subscription to Mothering) and now she is actually
spanking her kids. Another one is dead set against homeschooling, let
alone unschooling. Oh, and they all use time outs and other shaming
types of discipline. One of them actually gave her 5yo daughter a buzz
cut as a punishment for cutting her little brother's hair! I don't get it.

>
> Once we trusted Kirby and he trusted us, nothing was going to induce
> us to break that bond if we didn't have to, and that made unschooling
> a snap.

That was my motivation too--not to break that bond. I thank my lucky
stars every day that I discovered unschooling and that I have had the
opportunity to learn from all of you who generously give of yourselves
on this and other forums.

Jenny

>

Julie

Sandra wrote:
<<Issues of TV and plastic toys and organic juice and t-shirts with Disney
characters on them never entered into it, and as it was a pretty simple
philosophical point (not a TON of points, one basic principle) nobody could
have worked those in and still called it "attachment parenting."

I hope the group you're going to isn't as weird as that.>>

Nope, not weird in that way at all. We live in a pretty mainstream area, so
I'm probably the crunchiest mom there. It's just a nice way for me and Joe
to connect with other parents and kids who don't think we're crazy. What
you said did resonate with me, however, as I've recently made the transition
from being the type of person who would limit sugar and TV "for the sake of
the child" to one who would instead communicate with the child about these
issues (like any other issues), attempt to find a common preference, and be
there as the child learns through experience. I'm glad I've achieved that
philosophical shift AND the ability to let my house get a little messy
before the little one comes. Big breakthrough for me! And, as a bonus, I
don't feel like such a prissy ass anymore. :-D

The way in which the AP group IS weird is just funny to observe. They seem
to be quite open and flowing with their children, but each meeting is
conducted strictly and rigidly, without deviation, according to the
directives from some AP home office. The discussion is good, but the format
is stilted. I offered to donate a couple of books to the lending library,
and they said they had to check with the central group to see if they're
"approved" first. Yikes! I think they need to take a cue from their kids
and loosen up a bit, but they're very nice people.

Julie in NY
________________________________________________
"The founding fathers in their wisdom decided that children were an
unnatural strain on their parents. So they provided jails called school,
equipped with tortures called education." 
-John Updike
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingourselves/  

[email protected]

-=-***The thing is, many of these AP
moms are complete control freaks because they are trying so hard to
"protect" their kids from mainstream culture. That's where it conflicts
with unschooling.***-=-

That's where the concept of principles and priorities comes in. For some parents, the children are secondary in life. They have their causes and the drag the children along because it's good for them (they think) to have a global awareness (before the kid even knows what town he's in, sometimes, let alone that there are more than a hundred people in the world).

I think when children are little they need to be the center of someone's universe. Their own, their mom's maybe. If they are steeped in love and attention, they become whole and strong earlier, and then the mom really can do other things sooner.

Some parents get the idea that they can't be happy themselves or that they don't deserve to be happy until war is eliminated from the planet, or there is no hunger or strife in Africa, or the rainforest is restored to its 1900 state. That's the biggest was of codependency ever, to say "I'll try to be happy when Bosnia is at peace," when they don't even KNOW anyone in all of Europe. Did Ghandi eliminate violence in India? Did Jesus save the Middle East from war? (WAY far from it.) No crunchy-activist American is going to prevent war either, but a whole LOT of them prevent peace in their own lives and their own families out of free-floating angst and anxiety.

Lots of 22 year olds say "We can change the world!" Prove it small-scale, I say. Make one child's life really safe and peaceful and happy. Live your own life deeply instead of being a surface reflecting jagged images of problems 10,000 miles away.

Sandra

[email protected]

-= The discussion is good, but the format
is stilted. I offered to donate a couple of books to the lending library,
and they said they had to check with the central group to see if they're
"approved" first. Yikes! -=-

Sounds like La Leche League! Is it an offshoot of that?

Sandra

Deborah Harper

There are many attachment parenting organizations, but probably the largest one is Attachment Parenting International [API] http://www.attachmentparenting.org/ . I am a Leader of a local NC chapter affiliated with API so I can speak for them. They are not an off shoot of LLL, however, there is much mutual respect between the two organizations and API has mirrored many of LLL's policies. Still, in general, API has much less red tape than LLL.

Much I'd like to say about the conversation I have seen here on this topic, but I will try to be brief for everyone's sake.

First, attachment parenting according to API is a general philosophy of raising children with respect and empathy. They offer 8 Ideals of Attachment Parenting for infants, and another set for School-aged children, that they suggest help to foster a strong attachment between parent and child. You can see these ideals at the website above if you are interested. In brief they are breastfeeding, baby wearing, co-sleeping, POSITIVE DISCIPLINE, maintaining family balance, responding sensitively, etc.

Second, the issues that I am seeing discussed here as associated with attachment parenting, like sugar, TV, as well as issues like circumcision and vaccination, are issues that are fringe to AP and on which API takes no stand other than to say that they encourage every parent to be as informed as possible so as to make the best choices for their own families. They discourage us from talking about these at meetings specifically because they don't want folks to think you have to cloth diaper and throw away your TV to be AP. AP is about encouraging strong attachment, rather than pushing independence. I think that most of these fringe issues are big issues to any parent who is a conscious thinking breathing, heavily involved parent. It is not Attachment Parenting that is the source of these issues though. Again, API only encourages parents to educate themselves about the issues so that they can make thoughtful and informed decisions.

Thirdly, API does have guidelines for leaders to follow. The format of the meetings is completely open to the area specific leaders. API headquarters basically only asks that we stay on topic with the 8 ideals or some offshoot there-of and avoid those fringe issues. They suggest that if folks want information about those other issues, that folks can organize enrichment meetings, like LLL, that happen outside of the API regular meetings, to discuss those things. They do have a book list like LLL, and actually, their list is a short one appended by anything on the LLL booklist. They do not script us like LLL does with The Breastfeeding Answer Book, from which LLL Leaders literally read answers to questions. Rather, they give us the 8 ideals and the research to support them, as well as evidence for the case of raising children compassionately (with respect for their individuality) and then ask us to do our best to provide this information and to support parents and children. The only really limit us in that they ask us to keep our advice in accord with their philosophy, which only makes sense. If we want to offer other advice, then we should start our own parenting group and not align ourselves with API. I chose to become a leader with this group because I embrace AP and have benefited from this group greatly, and also because I liked that Leaders were not asked to be Robots or simply talking heads. They do not have many rules at all, really, but they do request that the library be kept in accord with their bibliography. Again, they want to be sure that groups carrying their name represent their philosophy. Not stifling, but common sensical. We actually decided to expand our library in the interest of providing more information to parents, but we have clearly marked which books are part of the API library and which are shared/donated items that have not yet been approved by API as representative of their philosophy.

Lastly, I would add that I have seen much of these turn-off aspects of attachment parenting folks in our own group. There are fringe issues, and they have been somewhat divisive within our group when they have come up. Most moms feel very passionately about these things whichever camp they subscribe to. I think the link between AP parents and these issues, though, is that the parents are willing to invest themselves heavily into doing whatever they believe is best for their child. They believe AP is best for their child, and they believe that wherever they stand on TV is the best they can do for their child. As a leader it is my job to moderate and ask folks to take such conversations offlist or outside the meeting that are outside the scope of API's mission and are likely to undermine the goal of supporting one another in the core philosophy of attachment parenting.

An important afterthought that I wanted to address is that API would never condone spanking or other violence on children. Still, there are parents in our group who have spanked, and probably some who still do. But API clearly maintains their position here of advocating the use of Positive Discipline, which spanking clearly is not.

If anyone has any questions about attachment parenting or API philosophy feel free to post and ask, or email me offlist at debbliz@.... I also encourage you to check out the API website as it has lots of really good information. And if anyone is interested in becoming an API support group leader, it is actually quite easy to get approved as a Leader and start up your own group in your area, or join an existing group and change the rigidity that you don't like. You can find this info on the website as well.

Interestingly, after just inserting my signature line I re-read API's motto of Peaceful Parenting for a Peaceful World and it reminded me of Sandra's last post on this topic, about creating peace in our own little corner of the world, right in our home with our children, rather than fighting so hard to save the whole world. That is really what this motto is all about. The more folks there are involved in peaceful respectful warm and loving parenting the more empathy and peace their will be in future generations and this can only lead to a more peaceful world.

Warmly,

Deborah Harper
debbliz@...
Momma to Bethany 6-1-00
Wife to Tom 7-9-99
API of the Raleigh Area
http://www.attachmentparenting.org/
Peaceful Parenting for a Peaceful World



----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 12:28 PM
Subject: RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] "I wish I had known..."


-= The discussion is good, but the format
is stilted. I offered to donate a couple of books to the lending library,
and they said they had to check with the central group to see if they're
"approved" first. Yikes! -=-

Sounds like La Leche League! Is it an offshoot of that?

Sandra


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[email protected]

In a message dated 2/12/05 1:43:34 PM, debbliz@... writes:

<< They discourage us from talking about these at meetings specifically
because they don't want folks to think you have to cloth diaper and throw away your
TV to be AP. >>

Good! because they don't have anything to do with physical closeness and
safety and acceptance of the child's needs in the moment, do they? (Maybe the
disposable diapers and safety, in some theories...)

-=API headquarters basically only asks that we stay on topic with the 8
ideals or some offshoot there-of and avoid those fringe issues. -=-

Like La Leche League and their series of four topics. Makes sense.

How does the topic of homeschooling fare when it comes up?

Sandra

Amy and Cory Nelson

As an LLL Leader, I just wanted to jump in and say that we aren't "scripted"
when we lead our meetings or help individual mothers. The Breastfeeding
Answer Book is just one of the resources we use to share information, and
sometimes I do read straight from the book when talking with mothers since
it's easier than paraphrasing all of the time :)

I've know about API since my daughter was born, but I've never attended a
meeting. Interesting to learn more about the organization!

Just a quick intro: I've belonged to this list for several years but go back
and forth being on no mail since it takes a lot for me to keep up with all
of the emails :) I'm Amy and live in southeastern South Dakota (only an hour
away from the very cool Diana!) and have two children: Accalia is 5 and Cole
is 2. I decided to start reading this list again because I was really
starting to feel myself drift away from the way we've found our family to be
happiest, and this list always gives me so much to think about and so much
inspiration. I'm hoping to attend my first Live and Learn Conference this
year, especially since it's a driveable distance! I told my dh that I'm
going to this conference and that he just has to help me make it happen :)

--
Amy
Mama to Accalia (6/14/99) and Cole (9/03/02)
"What we must decide is perhaps how we are valuable rather than how valuable
we are." --Edgar Z. Friedenberg
http://thissideofsomewhere.com/


> They do not
> script us like LLL does with The Breastfeeding Answer Book, from which LLL
> Leaders literally read answers to questions.

jwvastine

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:

>
> I think when children are little they need to be the center of
someone's universe. Their own, their mom's maybe. If they are
steeped in love and attention, they become whole and strong earlier,
and then the mom really can do other things sooner.

> Sandra

I wanted this to stand alone, because for me this is the core of
what I try every day to do. Sometimes successful, sometimes not,
but I try. When people say things about how difficult homeschooling
must be or question how I can be around my kids so much, this is the
thing I try to highlight. Needless to say, most don't get it.

Judy

Deborah Harper

I stand corrected on the workings of LLL. I know a bit about LLL as I have been a member for a long time and most of my friends are LLLLeaders, but I am not a leader and so probably should not have made statements about that organization. I certainly don't want to be spreading misinformation, so I thank those who have clarified LLL's workings and position.

Regarding the topic of homeschooling, this topic is brought up frequently on our local email list as many many of us are emerging homeschoolers (I would say at least half, maybe more), though information is always shared with OT in the subject line so as to distinguish this from the core of AP. We once had a wonderful meeting based on the 8 ideals of school-aged children that centered around local educational alternatives. We hosted a local Montessorian, a local Waldorf school instructor, and a local homeschooler. Each presented information about their institution and their basic philosophies. The homeschooler doing an excellent job of presenting broad information about varying homeschooling philosophies with a focus on traditional schooling at home and unschooling which juxtaposed nicely against the other presenters. She also provided many handouts with basic information about local homeschooling requirements and local support groups. A leader applicant organized and led this meeting and I have to say it was one of the best meetings we've ever had. There was really good information shared with an excellent member turnout. The meeting was a huge success.

So, it seems to me that most folks are sour on the public school system, but there are varied ideas about what is best for the individual children. I think that unschooling is excellent for all children, however, there are some children that are thriving in Montessori, and others in Waldorf schools. API encourages us to study our children and learn what they like and what their preferred learning styles are.

Of those of us that are (or are planning on) homeschooling I would say about half are unschoolers. Then there are those in our group that are Christian and so choose to homeschool for religious reasons and choose a curriculum like Sonlight. Still others who are attached, but simply not willing to completely let go and completely trust their children and still feel some need to see learning in measurable packets, choose some other unit studies program or a Montessori or Waldorf at home approach. Most everyone does, however, purport to follow (to the degree they are capable of handling at the moment) their child's lead within the limited framework of the HS philosophy they choose, rather than following a strict calendar or plan for the day/week/year.

Personally, I knew from the time my daughter was about 3 weeks old and I had fallen completely in Earth-shattering love with her that the only way I could do the blessing of mothering her justice would be to respect her for the incredible individual person that she is (she could be the next Messiah you know! ;) ).... by treating her with consideration, concern, compassion, respect, empathy, and all the love in my heart. Attachment Parenting is a label that fit fairly well with the lifestyle I was living, and homeschooling seemed to be the only educational option that would hold her up as the lone authority on herself and celebrate her individuality and her interests. I will settle for nothing less.

Deborah Harper
debbliz@...
Momma to Bethany 6-1-00
Wife to Tom 7-9-99
API of the Raleigh Area
http://www.attachmentparenting.org/
Peaceful Parenting for a Peaceful World


----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] "I wish I had known..."



In a message dated 2/12/05 1:43:34 PM, debbliz@... writes:

<< They discourage us from talking about these at meetings specifically
because they don't want folks to think you have to cloth diaper and throw away your
TV to be AP. >>

Good! because they don't have anything to do with physical closeness and
safety and acceptance of the child's needs in the moment, do they? (Maybe the
disposable diapers and safety, in some theories...)

-=API headquarters basically only asks that we stay on topic with the 8
ideals or some offshoot there-of and avoid those fringe issues. -=-

Like La Leche League and their series of four topics. Makes sense.

How does the topic of homeschooling fare when it comes up?

Sandra



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jimpetersonl

"That the little things I do can and do make a difference."

~Sue

so342p

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/12/05 5:48:28 PM, debbliz@... writes:

<< API encourages us to study our children and learn what they like and what
their preferred learning styles are.
>>

Sounds so clinical, put in terms of "study...learn."
It seems attachment parents would just know.

But I really believe strongly that Howard Gardner's onto something new and
real in his interpersonal intelligence writings. And I think people without
that skill wouldn't be interested in attachment parenting much anyway, or that if
they thought they were interested they might have a hard time getting it to
work out, unless and except that the kids could be genetically similar and also
not have interpersonal intelligence as one of their top three. If so,
neither could much "study" the other, but they might still get along fine together.

-=-Most everyone does, however, purport to follow (to the degree they are
capable of handling at the moment) their child's lead within the limited
framework of the HS philosophy they choose, rather than following a strict calendar or
plan for the day/week/year.-=-

That sounds good.

Sandra

Barbara Chase

>But I really believe strongly that Howard Gardner's onto something


Sandra,

I've been wanting to read something of his for a long time. My Mom had one
of his books a few years ago, and I had a chance to skim it... but didn't
get to read it in any detail. So I was just on Amazon and it came up with
110 matches for this author! Did you know he wrote a book titled "The
Unschooled Mind", but unfortunately it's subtitle is "How Children Think
and How Schools Should Teach."


Anyway, my question is which book would you recommend to read first?


Thanks
Barbara

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sylvia Toyama

> I think when children are little they need to be the center of
someone's universe. Their own, their mom's maybe<

> Sandra

I wanted this to stand alone, because for me this is the core of
what I try every day to do. Sometimes successful, sometimes not,
but I try. When people say things about how difficult homeschooling must be or question how I can be around my kids so much, this is the thing I try to highlight. Needless to say, most don't get it.

Judy

****

Even worse, they often say things about how important it is for kids to learn NOW that they aren't the center of the universe.

Sylvia




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-=-Even worse, they often say things about how important it is for kids to learn NOW that they aren't the center of the universe.
-=-

Yeah.
"You're just one of six billion" is harsh, for a kid who can't count to three yet. And it doesn't have to be said in words. It can be expressions of exasperationand impatience.

I do feel for people who have children they never wanted. What a bummer. But those who chose to have children and then don't treat them gently and respectfully are not good people.

Sandra

Deborah Harper

Deborah wrote: << API encourages us to study our children and learn what they like and what
their preferred learning styles are.
>>

Sandra replied: Sounds so clinical, put in terms of "study...learn."
It seems attachment parents would just know.


Deborah: The words study and learn are words that Dr. Sears has used, but I think his meaning, and certainly the meaning I have perceived through years of communication with API, is "study" by spending time holding and bonding and loving with your baby and coming to know their very selves.... so that we "just know."

Elimination communication is a related concept. When truly attached you have come to know within your bones your child so well that you can sense their cues, even those that they are about to urinate or defacate, so as to effectively save your carpet by taking your infant to the toilet.

I think the feeling you are imagining when you say, "just know" is exactly what AP and API feel and mean. I am just struggling a little with vocabulary. :-)

Thank you for your interest and for allowing me to speak here for API.

Deborah Harper
debbliz@...
Momma to Bethany 6-1-00
Wife to Tom 7-9-99
API of the Raleigh Area
http://www.attachmentparenting.org/
Peaceful Parenting for a Peaceful World



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-=-Thank you for your interest and for allowing me to speak here for API.-=-

I'm really glad you know enough to clarify, because in a couple of different places in the past month or so, I've written "attachment parenting" just as part of other unschooling chat and get pulled back short by someone saying, "Yeah, but attachmnent parenting says..." and I didn't even know there WAS an official voice of attachment parenting, or that "it" was saying to limit TV and avoid plastic toys. <g>

Just for one example (not to link this to attachment parenting!), I got to spend a day in a Waldorf school with the staff and kids were gone. We had rented for an event, and had the full run of the whole building. As a former teacher and as a musician, I was fascinated with all the music reference, with the art, with what was where, etc. So I went home and read about it. And it's VERY attractive, in an inner-child fantasy kind of way. I thought about how much *I* would have liked a school where they danced and played recorder and told stories about gnomes. HELL YES!

But... On the other hand, it's even more limiting than public school is, because you HAVE to play with silk cloth and dance, and you HAVE to play recorder, and you HAVE to interact with other people's ideas about gnomes. The gnomes and silk cloths form a veil between the parents and their own children. They trust that the teacher knows Steiner well enough to know what a dead guy thinks is best for their children. Too many removals and too many veils for me!

Sandra

queenjane555

> Just for one example (not to link this to attachment parenting!),
>I got to spend a day in a Waldorf school with the staff and kids
>were gone. We had rented for an event, and had the full run of the
>whole building. As a former teacher and as a musician, I was
>fascinated with all the music reference, with the art, with what
>was where, etc. So I went home and read about it. And it's VERY
>attractive, in an inner-child fantasy kind of way. I thought about
>how much *I* would have liked a school where they danced and played
>recorder and told stories about gnomes. HELL YES!

When we were looking for a school for seamus (for K), we went to the
local waldorf school's open house. Everything was muted, like the
place was drenched in this pastel haze. They had cookies and juice
out, and the teachers doing their little puppet plays and ringing
their bells and singing in their long flowing skirts. I thought, no
way could seamus come here....he'd tear this place apart! I just
couldnt imagine my very "primary color" kid, very active and
spirited (and so into technology)in this school.

When we went to the Montessori school, with its bright colors and
manipulatives all around, it felt way more comfortable, like it
would be ok for him to do his own thing there. And it was (it seems
Mont. focuses more on individual work and Waldorf on the group
experience?), too bad his teacher was evil.

When i was all into attachment parenting though, Waldorf did seem
like a warm, natural, wholesome place to send your child.


Katherine

Deborah Harper

<<<<When i was all into attachment parenting though, Waldorf did seem
like a warm, natural, wholesome place to send your child.>>>>

I have definitely felt the same way. But like you, I have had to take a close look at reality.... that while *I* think the all natural, low tech, warm, flowing, singing atmosphere of Waldorf and other different schooling alternatives, are really quite enchanting for me, my daughter would walk all over that stuff. Some of my friends have children who seem to be perfectly suited to such places, but my daughter has her own agenda, and that aint it. I'm finding (duh ;) ) that if I really want to follow my child (4.5yo) that I need to let go of my own preconceived notions about what would be ideal for her. Just when I think I know something, she really shuts me up. Like about a year ago my husband brought home an antique school desk for me and Bethany to use in our homeschool. I completely railed against it because I did NOT plan to do school at home! I wanted it out. Well, my daughter LOVED it. She kept all her markers and crayons and paper under it and would sit there for hours drawing and cutting and pasting. I was completely amazed. My child never sat *anywhere* for more than about 5 minutes before. So, I learned to just keep my mouth shut and watch. :-)

Deborah Harper
debbliz@...
Momma to Bethany 6-1-00
Wife to Tom 7-9-99
API of the Raleigh Area
http://www.attachmentparenting.org/
Peaceful Parenting for a Peaceful World



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi

Did you know he wrote a book titled "The
> Unschooled Mind", but unfortunately it's subtitle is "How Children
Think
> and How Schools Should Teach."

Reminds me of the Dr. Mel Levine book I'm reading right now "One Mind
at a Time" which is informative and full of ideas about how
different "intelligences" function together to optimize learning, and
how different people have strengths in different intelligences. And
throughout, he's bringing up ideas how teachers can make it work in
the classroom, or how unfortunate it is that there is no such thing
as school at night, for Night Children. And how you have to strive to
get the kid caught up in a weakness, in order to not fall behind.

good book, otherwise.

blessings, HeidiC



>
> Anyway, my question is which book would you recommend to read first?
>
>
> Thanks
> Barbara
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]