open disrespect
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/29/05 2:59:56 AM, joyerin@... writes:
<< What I seem to have seen is that any disrespect of children, woman or
minorities
is more open for whatever reasons in the south compared to the north >>
It seems that would mean they think it's acceptable to most people, wouldn't
it?
Where and in what circumstances are children most openly spanked? In my
experience, sadly, church and at family gatherings of extended spanking families.
When I was really little, in Texas, in the 50's, Rastus and Liza jokes were
common. They were along the lines of two-character moron jokes. The effect,
though, was to create prejudice and an image of African Americans as, well,
morons. I moved to Northern New Mexico, a WHOLE different culture, and never
heard another one.
In the late 60's and early 70's, anti-female jokes were common. Nasty jokes
about rape and about stupidity. Not like blonde jokes, but worse. The
women's movement made people less likely to tell or laugh at those jokes. It empo
wered women to say "That's not funny," and "That attitude is sexist and
ignorant."
The next wave to which people rarely object is anti-child humor.
I'm not saying that none of those jokes are funny. One can't help laughing
sometimes at a surprising ending or a ridiculous situation, and the laughing
itself can be forgiven, but I do think if there is to be cultural change, it's
worth pointing out to our friends, our parents, our children, that humor that
undermines a class of people, and humor to which others are afraid to object
(or to which they never considered objecting) perpetuates problems we could
benefit from dumping.
I was on someone's humor list, and once received a set of anti-child jokes
that really offended me. I responded to the list and said something along the
lines of what's above (but very short version), and got three hateful e-mails
and lost my friendship. I don't care. The people on that list were almost
all teachers in the public schools, in Salt Lake City. Some of them I know to
be childless. My friend adopted three Russian sisters who were already
schoolage (and they're BIGTIME in school, in which she is fully invested). I liked
that friendship a great deal at one time, but I like my children's future much
more.
On a New Mexico list for homeschoolers I created and maintained for years,
someone put up a quote from e-Bay (? great source of quotes?) that said raising
a teenager was like nailing jello to a tree. I objected to it, lightly, said
I wasn't having problems with my unschooled teens, and was hooted down by
some people insulting me and unschooling. The upshot was I gave the list to
someone with thicker skin and newer energy, and I quit the whole list. If on a
homeschooling list it's to be fine to insult those whole people to whom we have
supposedly dedicated our lives, there are problems with homeschoolers.
And maybe it's just a problem with the image of children in this culture.
I think it's like hazing. Whatever psychology make fraternities, military
training facilities, high school football teams, etc., WANT to torment the new
recruits is what makes adults torment children. They were tormented and their
solace was that someday they would be the tormentors. How does it stop?
People die. Football players and fraternity members and recruits die. And
children die when parents believe that they have the right to "discipline" them or
torment them, and when they think that other adults around them will not
object.
The U.S. has not and will not ratify the United Nation's Right of the Child
resolution.
The first version of that (as far as I know) was 1924.
There was another in 1959.
The one that all member nations were asked to sign off on was 1989.
This isn't new stuff.
Here's something I found, and here's a quote from that. Not the same, but
same principles, and the U.S. has not signed the binding treaty. Last I knew,
two nations had not signed.
-=-This document is a non-binding resolution of the United Nations General
Assembly. It should not be confused with the International Convention on the
Rights of the Child which was adopted by the UN General Assembly on the thirtieth
anniversary of this document, 20 November 1989. That document is a binding
treaty to which 176 nations have become "states parties".]
-=-
http://www.cirp.org/library/ethics/UN-declaration/
You can probably guess which element of U.S. political culture I have
heard/read complain most bitterly about that resolution violating THEIR rights.
Sandra
<< What I seem to have seen is that any disrespect of children, woman or
minorities
is more open for whatever reasons in the south compared to the north >>
It seems that would mean they think it's acceptable to most people, wouldn't
it?
Where and in what circumstances are children most openly spanked? In my
experience, sadly, church and at family gatherings of extended spanking families.
When I was really little, in Texas, in the 50's, Rastus and Liza jokes were
common. They were along the lines of two-character moron jokes. The effect,
though, was to create prejudice and an image of African Americans as, well,
morons. I moved to Northern New Mexico, a WHOLE different culture, and never
heard another one.
In the late 60's and early 70's, anti-female jokes were common. Nasty jokes
about rape and about stupidity. Not like blonde jokes, but worse. The
women's movement made people less likely to tell or laugh at those jokes. It empo
wered women to say "That's not funny," and "That attitude is sexist and
ignorant."
The next wave to which people rarely object is anti-child humor.
I'm not saying that none of those jokes are funny. One can't help laughing
sometimes at a surprising ending or a ridiculous situation, and the laughing
itself can be forgiven, but I do think if there is to be cultural change, it's
worth pointing out to our friends, our parents, our children, that humor that
undermines a class of people, and humor to which others are afraid to object
(or to which they never considered objecting) perpetuates problems we could
benefit from dumping.
I was on someone's humor list, and once received a set of anti-child jokes
that really offended me. I responded to the list and said something along the
lines of what's above (but very short version), and got three hateful e-mails
and lost my friendship. I don't care. The people on that list were almost
all teachers in the public schools, in Salt Lake City. Some of them I know to
be childless. My friend adopted three Russian sisters who were already
schoolage (and they're BIGTIME in school, in which she is fully invested). I liked
that friendship a great deal at one time, but I like my children's future much
more.
On a New Mexico list for homeschoolers I created and maintained for years,
someone put up a quote from e-Bay (? great source of quotes?) that said raising
a teenager was like nailing jello to a tree. I objected to it, lightly, said
I wasn't having problems with my unschooled teens, and was hooted down by
some people insulting me and unschooling. The upshot was I gave the list to
someone with thicker skin and newer energy, and I quit the whole list. If on a
homeschooling list it's to be fine to insult those whole people to whom we have
supposedly dedicated our lives, there are problems with homeschoolers.
And maybe it's just a problem with the image of children in this culture.
I think it's like hazing. Whatever psychology make fraternities, military
training facilities, high school football teams, etc., WANT to torment the new
recruits is what makes adults torment children. They were tormented and their
solace was that someday they would be the tormentors. How does it stop?
People die. Football players and fraternity members and recruits die. And
children die when parents believe that they have the right to "discipline" them or
torment them, and when they think that other adults around them will not
object.
The U.S. has not and will not ratify the United Nation's Right of the Child
resolution.
The first version of that (as far as I know) was 1924.
There was another in 1959.
The one that all member nations were asked to sign off on was 1989.
This isn't new stuff.
Here's something I found, and here's a quote from that. Not the same, but
same principles, and the U.S. has not signed the binding treaty. Last I knew,
two nations had not signed.
-=-This document is a non-binding resolution of the United Nations General
Assembly. It should not be confused with the International Convention on the
Rights of the Child which was adopted by the UN General Assembly on the thirtieth
anniversary of this document, 20 November 1989. That document is a binding
treaty to which 176 nations have become "states parties".]
-=-
http://www.cirp.org/library/ethics/UN-declaration/
You can probably guess which element of U.S. political culture I have
heard/read complain most bitterly about that resolution violating THEIR rights.
Sandra
arcarpenter2003
_Inventing the Child_ is a book by J.Zornado that talks about how our
culture is built around the concept of children being second-class
citizens. It's expensive, but I requested in through interlibrary
loan at our college library once -- they let me read it on site, not
take it home. Someday I'm going to save up the money and own my own copy.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0815335245/qid=1107028902/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-2366673-7050408?v=glance&s=books
Peace,
Amy
culture is built around the concept of children being second-class
citizens. It's expensive, but I requested in through interlibrary
loan at our college library once -- they let me read it on site, not
take it home. Someday I'm going to save up the money and own my own copy.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0815335245/qid=1107028902/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-2366673-7050408?v=glance&s=books
Peace,
Amy
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> I think it's like hazing. Whatever psychology make fraternities,
military
> training facilities, high school football teams, etc., WANT to
torment the new
> recruits is what makes adults torment children. They were tormented
and their
> solace was that someday they would be the tormentors. How does it
stop?
> People die. Football players and fraternity members and recruits
die. And
> children die when parents believe that they have the right to
"discipline" them or
> torment them, and when they think that other adults around them will
not
> object.
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/29/05 1:10:17 PM, arcarpenter@... writes:
<<
_Inventing the Child_ is a book by J.Zornado that talks about how our
culture is built around the concept of children being second-class
citizens. It's expensive, but I requested in through interlibrary
loan at our college library once -- they let me read it on site, not
take it home. Someday I'm going to save up the money and own my own copy. >>
Thanks!
I've added that to my just building page on not-funny humor, which will no
doubt grow and change. I will add that set of jokes I was sent by the teachers'
list when I find it.
http://sandradodd.com/notfunny
Sandra
<<
_Inventing the Child_ is a book by J.Zornado that talks about how our
culture is built around the concept of children being second-class
citizens. It's expensive, but I requested in through interlibrary
loan at our college library once -- they let me read it on site, not
take it home. Someday I'm going to save up the money and own my own copy. >>
Thanks!
I've added that to my just building page on not-funny humor, which will no
doubt grow and change. I will add that set of jokes I was sent by the teachers'
list when I find it.
http://sandradodd.com/notfunny
Sandra