[email protected]

In a message dated 1/27/05 8:20:09 PM, anderclan@... writes:

<< makes me wonder how she takes care of her horses too! >>

Horses get more respect than kids, with some people. If they're harsh with
kids, it doesn't mean they would be harsh with a horse, or a dog, or a stranger.

The culture of the SE U.S. has a medieval history. Where feudalism died out
in other parts of the world, it was thriving there, in a new and kinda weird
way. A lower class is necessary to the psyche, and when slavery was gone and
women were no longer good legal victims, children were next. The first part
isn't my speculation. The second part is my observation of the Big differences
in the way some of the people I've met from there treat their kids (and get
irritated with the way I treat mine), and from working for several years with a
board of directors of a group trying to decide how much to include minors in
various positions and what rights to give them within the group, and it being
the representatives from Georgia and Florida who said "No Way" to treating
older teens as adults in ANY way. And they had dug up medical research and legal
precedent (all from where they lived, which I guess had been used locally to
keep kids down) to defend their positions, so there was the pretence that it
was for the only for the kids' own good.

I've heard similar defenses about keeping women out of certain jobs, out of
the military, and in the house, for their own good. They lost those fights.

Yes, things are changing (always, everywhere) and there are families who are
wonderful with their children and other people's children, but if that area
never got outvoted by other parts of the country, I think they would still have
segregation of race and gender.

Last time I brought this up I got jumped on by people saying "Prejudice!" but
pointing at prejudice against minors and saying "Look" isn't me being
prejudiced against the people was pointing at. It's me seeing a pattern and saying,
"Look, a pattern."

If I'm wrong, I'm wrongs, and YES I know it's changing. But it's already
changed other places. And YES there are kid-resenting people all over the place
and it's not exclusively one region. But if it is apparent in one region to
the extent of children having to use different forms of address, that's
something one can point to.

Sandra

Johanna San Inocencio

Hi, I am new to the list but I had to respond to this. First let me give
a introduction. I am Johanna, wife to Raymond and we have 6 children,the
oldest is Cindy who is 20 and has our first grandson Caesar Ramon. They
live in Massachusetts. Raymond is our 18 yo and a talented guitarist,
singer and songwriter. Michael is 14 and loves old cars and drumming.
Julian is 12, skateboarding and LOTR are his current passions. Gabriel
is 7 and fascinated with anything to do with science or government. Tory
is the youngest at 5, very much the little girl, she loves Barbies, tea
parties and dressing up.(her choice, not mine) While I have loved the
unschooling philosophy for many years, my husband is reluctant to
believe in it and this does cause tension on occasion. We lived in
Massachusetts until 5 years ago. Tennessee is now our home. When we
moved here our whole family went through quite a cultural adjustment.
While we have always expected common courtesy and respect out of each
other as fellow human beings I was surprised how many people here feel
like it is their right to be respected just because of their position.
some have been downright rude but it is executed subtly. The first 6
months we were here Cindy and Raymond were in public school by their own
choice and Michael and Julian were also because my husband felt that was
best while we were in the middle of moving to a rental property and
buying our own home. The principal of the middle school gave me many
"lessons" in southern authority. I will share one example. Ray came home
from school one Wednesday afternoon with a note saying he had to write
100 times " I will not have a rubber band in the NCE gym." He was a bus
student and after class ended the bus students wait in the gym until
their bus arrives. They are allowed to talk, but have to stay in
assigned areas. Ray had a rubber band on his wrist and was snapping it
when a teacher walked up to him and took it off his wrist. He asked her
why she took it away. She ignored him so he asked again. She asked him
if he would like to discuss it with the principal and he said sure. He
gets in trouble for questioning authority. He didn't do it that night
because of schedule conflicts and the next day is sent home with a note
stating if it is not returned finished the following day he has
detention. We pulled out the student handbook and in it it states if a
student disputes a disciplinary action, he must state his dispute in
writing, so Ray writes an excellent 2 page letter stating any object
could be construed as a potential weapon and unless there was some
intention or attempt to use it as such, he is innocent. The principal
did not like this challenge to authority and I am now called into a
parent conference with the principal. after 45 minutes in his office in
conference with the teacher I am told I am as rebellious as my son and
he has to do the sentences or he will be suspended from school. He
didn't do the sentences and was suspended from school, all over
possession of a rubber band. My son came out with a stronger sense of
how ridiculous some adults can be. Many people here have been wonderful
and good friends but there is and underlying attitude of superiority in
southern culture.
Johanna

" A man is as free as he chooses to make himself, never an atom freer."
The Raven, Lillith by George MacDonald



SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 1/27/05 8:20:09 PM, anderclan@... writes:
>
> << makes me wonder how she takes care of her horses too! >>
>
> Horses get more respect than kids, with some people. If they're harsh
> with
> kids, it doesn't mean they would be harsh with a horse, or a dog, or a
> stranger.
>
> The culture of the SE U.S. has a medieval history. Where feudalism
> died out
> in other parts of the world, it was thriving there, in a new and kinda
> weird
> way. A lower class is necessary to the psyche, and when slavery was
> gone and
> women were no longer good legal victims, children were next. The
> first part
> isn't my speculation. The second part is my observation of the Big
> differences
> in the way some of the people I've met from there treat their kids
> (and get
> irritated with the way I treat mine), and from working for several
> years with a
> board of directors of a group trying to decide how much to include
> minors in
> various positions and what rights to give them within the group, and
> it being
> the representatives from Georgia and Florida who said "No Way" to
> treating
> older teens as adults in ANY way. And they had dug up medical
> research and legal
> precedent (all from where they lived, which I guess had been used
> locally to
> keep kids down) to defend their positions, so there was the pretence
> that it
> was for the only for the kids' own good.
>
> I've heard similar defenses about keeping women out of certain jobs,
> out of
> the military, and in the house, for their own good. They lost those
> fights.
>
> Yes, things are changing (always, everywhere) and there are families
> who are
> wonderful with their children and other people's children, but if that
> area
> never got outvoted by other parts of the country, I think they would
> still have
> segregation of race and gender.
>
> Last time I brought this up I got jumped on by people saying
> "Prejudice!" but
> pointing at prejudice against minors and saying "Look" isn't me being
> prejudiced against the people was pointing at. It's me seeing a
> pattern and saying,
> "Look, a pattern."
>
> If I'm wrong, I'm wrongs, and YES I know it's changing. But it's already
> changed other places. And YES there are kid-resenting people all
> over the place
> and it's not exclusively one region. But if it is apparent in one
> region to
> the extent of children having to use different forms of address, that's
> something one can point to.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
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>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

cslkll

Yes ma'am doesn't really roll of the tongue when you
have a midwestern accent :-) I'm not bothered by calling
someone miss whatever. For me it's more friendly that being
called Mrs. so and so. But someone acting like a boot camp
instructor telling my child "don't you walk away from me!
You hear me, you say yes ma'am!" etc.........ugh..just a yucky
person.

I understand what you have said in this post Sandra. It is
a shocking realization for dh and I. We are rethinking if this
is really where we are to be raising our children.
krista

> "Look, a pattern."
>
> If I'm wrong, I'm wrongs, and YES I know it's changing. But it's
already
> changed other places. And YES there are kid-resenting people all
over the place
> and it's not exclusively one region. But if it is apparent in one
region to
> the extent of children having to use different forms of address,
that's
> something one can point to.
>
> Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/28/2005 9:35:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

But if it is apparent in one region to
the extent of children having to use different forms of address, that's
something one can point to.

Sandra



Some people would say that is courtesy, manners, respect to teach a child to
do that, not prejudice in any way.

Much the way SCA uses titles to refer to those who hold rank.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On Jan 28, 2005, at 8:07 AM, rubyprincesstsg@... wrote:

> Some people would say that is courtesy, manners, respect to teach a
> child to
> do that, not prejudice in any way.

The point was that DIFFERENT manners are expected of children - they
are expected to show respect in a way that adults are not. Children are
expected to politely say, "Yes ma'am" no matter what idiot thing the
adult is saying or doing.


pam

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/28/2005 11:03:14 AM Mountain Standard Time,
rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
-=-Some people would say that is courtesy, manners, respect to teach a child
to
do that, not prejudice in any way.-=-

The arguments for keeping women home in this culture were couched in terms of
respect and courtesy too. And in cultures where now women are not allowed
out, not allowed to drive or go to college, that's described in terms of respect
for women, and protecting them.

-=-Much the way SCA uses titles to refer to those who hold rank.=

They're playing, and they're playing at the Middle Ages.
The SCA doesn't confuse what they're doing with the 21st century.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/28/2005 1:15:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:

"Yes ma'am" no matter what idiot thing the
adult is saying or doing.



Just using the term for any generic reason, especially to agree with
something an "idiot" is saying or doing isn't the way "yes ma'am" was intended or
mostly used.

Rude people who expect that obedience and graveling at the feet of the
elders come in all parts of the Country, not just in those that use "old" manners.
I also know that has been pointed out, but I really don't think the
Southern folk have any monopoly on "idiots" who disrespect children or expect blind
allegiance, that is found world wide.

Of course that's just my observations.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/28/2005 11:55:18 AM Mountain Standard Time,
rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
-=-I also know that has been pointed out, but I really don't think the
Southern folk have any monopoly on "idiots" who disrespect children or
expect blind
allegiance, that is found world wide.-=-
-Africa doesn't have a monopoly on AIDS, which is found world wide.
Should no one discuss the fact that it's epidemic in Africa because that
somehow isn't fair?

Southern folk have a Miss Gulch condition that doesn't exist in most part of
the U.S. It has affected some families here, and we could pretend it's
nothing or we could look at it.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/28/2005 2:10:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

Southern folk have a Miss Gulch condition that doesn't exist in most part of
the U.S. It has affected some families here, and we could pretend it's
nothing or we could look at it.

Sandra



We certainly can look at it, but to me it looks like rude disrespectful
people, who feel entitled to somehow treat children badly or minimally without
respect, while demanding it from the child.

Now, whether that happens in Savannah GA or in Detroit MI, it's still
disrespect of our children and worthy of conversation about how to best equip our
children to handle these situations if they might occur.

Whether it occurs mostly in the south, one can speculate or tell of
observations, but my observations are that rude insensitive nasty people are a part
of life. They can be found anywhere and sometimes where you least expect it.

Personally I can't attribute this more so to any one region or locality but
they do tend to crop up in instances where one of the aforementioned rude
people seems to feel some "power" has been given to them.

It's never acceptable and I'm sorry that children are exposed to people like
this in life.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/28/2005 11:07:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, rubyprincesstsg@... writes:


>>>>Some people would say that is courtesy, manners, respect to teach a child  to do that, not prejudice in any way.<<<<

*I* would say that it is courtesy, manners and respect that I *model*. My children see the difference it can make. I also use courtesy, manners and respect with THEM, so it's not something they're unfamiliar with at all.

But *teaching*?????

~Kelly, the one below the Mason-Dixon Line <g>

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/28/2005 2:05:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, SandraDodd@... writes:

>
>Southern folk have a Miss Gulch condition that doesn't exist in most part of
>the U.S.  It has affected some families here, and we could pretend it's
>nothing or we could look at it.<<<<<

Sandra's going to get a GOOD dose of ma'aming next week! Cameron's a Southern boy!
Have a good time! <G>

~Kelly

cslkll

I think what surprises me the most is not that someone would talk
to a child like that, but that someone would think they could talk
to someone else's child in such a manner.....when both dh and I
were right there! I guess it's accepted down here :-( She was
quite shocked that I stuck up for my daughter. Again, ladies, thank
you for the acknowledgement that it is different depending on where
one lives. krista


> >
> >Southern folk have a Miss Gulch condition that doesn't exist in
most part of
> >the U.S.  It has affected some families here, and we could
pretend it's
> >nothing or we could look at it.<<<<<
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/28/2005 4:44:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
cslkll@... writes:

when both dh and I
were right there! I guess it's accepted down here :-( She was
quite shocked that I stuck up for my daughter.


Please don't think it's accepted "down here" as a general rule. I am
acquainted with many true southerners and they would not think of speaking to a
child in such a manner, much less someone else's child!

It's wrong no matter where one might be living.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/28/2005 3:45:10 PM Central Standard Time,
cslkll@... writes:

I guess it's accepted down here :-( She was
quite shocked that I stuck up for my daughter.


~~~
I live in Arkansas, not Alabama.

It's NOT accepted down here. There are plenty of people who deal with kids
that way, but that doesn't mean it's just *accepted*.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/28/2005 2:22:48 PM Mountain Standard Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
-=-Sandra's going to get a GOOD dose of ma'aming next week! Cameron's a
Southern boy!-=-

Tell him to try to refrain. Honestly, it's New Mexico.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Juli Kearns

Decades ago, I was removed down to Georgia from the way far North and at
the age of ten confronted, "Yes, ma'am."

My school experience went like this:

Teacher asks me a question.
Me: Yes.
Teacher: Yes, what?
Me: Uhhh....yes?
Teacher: Yes, what?
Me: Uhhh...maybe?
Teacher: Maybe, what?
Me: No???
Teacher: No, what?!!!

And off I went to the principal's office. I had never heard of yes ma'am
in my life and it was all very confusing to me, but I was more confused by
the passion concerning yes ma'am and no ma'am, yes sir and no sir. And I
was even more confused by people expecting a child who was known to be from
the North to be versed in Southern etiquette.

I never did get used to Yes ma'am/no ma'am and somehow managed to slip
through childhood not using it, finding it repugnant (I think only because
of the attitude accompanying). So it never entered my lexicon.

My husband was raised entirely southern, his family never having ventured
above the Mason-Dixon line, from backwoods LA and the Gulf. He said yes
ma'am and no ma'am. His father said yes ma'am and no ma'am. His mother
said yes ma'am and no ma'am. It was an address of respect and was used
with everyone regardless of income level or race or age. Even children
were addressed by ma'am or sir, if "Yes" or "No" was not followed by an
affectionate identifier such as "honey". I have never heard his family
instruct anyone not in their family to use ma'am or sir, and they have
never instructed our son to use it. My husband says he has never heard his
parents say to anyone, "Yes, what?" If you weren't raised to use it as a
customary address it wasn't expected. I don't know if this is peculiar to
the areas from which my husband's family came.

I still didn't like it. It felt fake to my ear. But many Southern
conventions that were supposed to be a matter of respect and neighborliness
felt fake to me, probably because I was thoroughly abused as a child from
the North, and also because I had moved down here pre-integration, to a
land of black maids daily bussed in from their poor segregated neighborhood
to serve white families, where white swam in their own pools and drank from
their own water fountains. So I certainly connected yes ma'am with
authoritarianism and repressiveness.

A couple of years after we were married my husband and I moved to Atlanta
and the Atlanta we moved to and move about in is populated by
non-southerners and people from more southern areas who "escaped" to
Atlanta. For a couple of decades I have very rarely heard yes ma'am or no
ma'am. My family didn't adopt it. My son doesn't say it nor has anyone
ever requested he do so and his father's parents have not instructed him to
do so or expected him to do so. I have only been addressed "Ma'am" once in
a number of years (on a personal level where I wasn't a customer) and it
was recently by a friend of a niece, the individual being Vietnamese, his
family being refugees who moved here in the 70s, and I imagine they took
significant pains to adopt what they saw as customary and insisted their
children do so. I know my Midwest grandmother had told me, "When in Rome,
do as the Romans do", when I was being moved down South, but I decided not
to do so, nor did my family encourage me to do so. But a Vietnamese
family--I don't know but in Vietnam they may have their own system of
respectful address and so were comfortable with it, or felt it especially
important to adopt the convention as they were refugees.

Down here, Ma'am and Sir are part and parcel of systems of address by
service industry workers and that is a matter of authoritarianism. Still,
I'm infrequently addressed as ma'am and it could be because I never did
pick up much of a Southern accent and that lack of an accent may signal me
as an individual with which that formal address doesn't need to be used as
it's not expected. My husband doesn't get it much either however. There
are certain cues as to use that even my husband goes by as sometimes I will
hear him with strangers using yes ma'am, no ma'am, yes sir, no sir. Or
with certain friends but with those friends it's a matter of affection.

Juli

Nisha

When I was a space camp couselor, I completely enjoyed my team of
kids from southern Louisiana. I had to get used to the yes ma'am
thing really fast. They were a good bunch.
THe one bunch that was really a trip for me, was the blind/visually
impaired group. They started listening as soon as you started
talking. They all got quiet just immediately. I never really thought
about how important listening is to someone who can't see before
that week.
Being blindfolded and led around was an interesting experience too.
I really had to focus on using sight related words when talking
about the stuff we were going over too.
Nisha

--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
> Sandra's going to get a GOOD dose of ma'aming next week! Cameron's
a Southern boy!
> Have a good time! <G>
>
> ~Kelly

Robyn Coburn

<<<<<Again, ladies, thank
you for the acknowledgement that it is different depending on where
one lives.>>>>

When James and I were held up at gunpoint about 9 years ago, in Hollywood,
one of the young perpetrators called me "Ma'am" a couple of times. I
remember feeling surprised.

Robyn L. Coburn

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.841 / Virus Database: 572 - Release Date: 1/21/2005

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/2005 1:12:52 AM Central Standard Time,
nishamartin@... writes:

When I was a space camp couselor


~~~

Were you a space camp counselor in Huntsville?

My son is going to Aviation Challenge there in April and I'd like to get
your input.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

cslkll

I've decided not to let this one incident outweigh the
many positive and wonderful interactions we've had in
our explorations of our new home :) The ladies at the
sewing store I visit have been darn near overly friendly,
and very accomodating to allowing my girls to sit there
while they show me some stuff on the sewing machines, etc.
There have been other complimentary situations as well.

This thread does have me wondering if some of the people
I've met think I was rude by not saying yes ma'am to them, lol.
Oh well. krista

--- In [email protected], rubyprincesstsg@a...
wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 1/28/2005 4:44:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> cslkll@h... writes:
>
> when both dh and I
> were right there! I guess it's accepted down here :-( She was
> quite shocked that I stuck up for my daughter.
>
>
> Please don't think it's accepted "down here" as a general rule. I
am
> acquainted with many true southerners and they would not think of
speaking to a
> child in such a manner, much less someone else's child!
>
> It's wrong no matter where one might be living.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nisha

Yes I was. The Aviation challenge was only a couple of years old
when I was there, but it was a good program, but very militarily
structured. The thing I liked best about AC was the zip line. We
used to go "Play" on the zip line sometimes when it was really hot.
IT's a cable, with a handle attached to a pulley, that goes over a
big pool of water. You let go about the middle(about 8 -10 feet over
the water depending on where youlet go) and it's a blast. Idon't
know that they still do it, but when I was there, it was a good
program. I'm planning on doing parent child camp with my kids at
some point. (they do that there too) They really are interested in
space related stuff. They may decide to do AC with their dad if we
can afford it too. The military thing is much more his deal than
mine.
Nisha

--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a...
wrote:
> Were you a space camp counselor in Huntsville?
>
> My son is going to Aviation Challenge there in April and I'd like
to get
> your input.
>
> Karen
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/2005 2:17:21 PM Central Standard Time,
nishamartin@... writes:

Yes I was. The Aviation challenge was only a couple of years old
when I was there, but it was a good program, but very militarily
structured. The thing I liked best about AC was the zip line. We
used to go "Play" on the zip line sometimes when it was really hot.
IT's a cable, with a handle attached to a pulley, that goes over a
big pool of water. You let go about the middle(about 8 -10 feet over
the water depending on where youlet go) and it's a blast. Idon't
know that they still do it, but when I was there, it was a good
program. I'm planning on doing parent child camp with my kids at
some point. (they do that there too) They really are interested in
space related stuff. They may decide to do AC with their dad if we
can afford it too. The military thing is much more his deal than
mine.



~~~

Thanks! We have a zip line in our back yard, but no pool to drop into. I'm
sure Will would enjoy that.

Is there anything academic about the camps? No writing or math or anything
like that?

I don't want Will to feel uncomfortable about not knowing how to fill in
worksheets or whatever. I doubt they'd get too many school kids to go if it
were too academic, and his session is in April, so I'm hoping there are lots of
homeschooled kids there (unschooled kids are too much to hope for).

He's really excited. Took his chicken pox shot like a man. :)

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]