Kirby, school, two weeks in
[email protected]
Apologies to new members or those with little kids, and anyone should feel
free to skip this by. Kirby is 18 and taking a few classes at the community
college.
Kirby loves his math class. When they've had in-class things they've scored,
he's gotten 8 out of ten and 7 out of ten.
He likes the college success class. Today they made 3x5 cards of their
priority projects. Here's what his says:
1 Work on my essey (he misspelled it)
Get a place to do it
Get moms help
follow the step by step walkthrough
Do it!
I hadn't seen that before he came in today and asked me to help him with his
English homework.
It's due Wednesday.
I asked if we could do it in the library,our upstairs room, which has a clean
table this week. (I didn't know he had a list that said 'get a place.')
When I saw his pages and PAGES of instructions and policies and samples, I
was not a bit hopeful. I thought there was no way it would be finished in time.
I have singing practice tomorrow night. He has math tomorrow, and karate
for hours.
The assignment was daunting and the details were making me cranky and I was
trying to be calm and hopeful and peaceful.
He needed a "sentence outline." The sample we finally found in the depths of
his stuff was unclear, but we did one. I could've guessed wrong. I thought
that would be a stopping place, but Kirby was upstairs writing while I was
downstairs printing the outline. My computer's the only one with a printer.
He's finished! Finished a day and a half early.
I never finished anything a day and a half early when I was in college.
Two things bother me: This is the kind of English class to make people
despise English classes. I'm sad about that. It's over-blown pomposity and
obfuscation.
Second thing:
"A paragraph must consist of at least 100 words."
That is not qualified, no "for the purposes of this class," or anything.
There it is, just as though it's fact, law, definition.
And furthermore, it's in a paragraph that's maybe 45 words long. But here it
is with its explanation:
"A paragraph must consist of at least 100 words. Short paragraphs result in
inadequate development of your thesis."
I told Kirby just not to count. I told him if it's interesting enough, the
teacher won't count.
Now I hope I'm right.
I have the urge to liberate him, <g> but he's still having fun.
I've read LOTS and lots of long paragraphs which were the result of lack of
friggin' CLUE about thesis or development, but reeked of the hyperawareness of
word count.
His handwritten language is very tacky looking and hard to read, and he types
fast and well. He's still iffy on the commas and apostrophes and quotation
marks. He usedtoo many quotation marks on his hand-written first draft, and he
didn't use paragraphs, but there were some good phrases and most of them
ended up in the final, though it had a different slant.
Here's the assignment:
**
"New Directions," by Maya Angelou, is a narrative essay about Mrs. Annie
Johnson, an African-American woman who lived int he American South one hundred
years ago. Identify at least three personal attributes that the author obviously
admires in this woman. Explain why she admires these traits. Use examples
from the text to support your statements.
**
Huh.
Just noticed Kirby answered another question.
He wrote about three personal attributes HE admired.
How could he explain why Maya Angelou admires the traits? He would be
guessing, not explaining.
If he's marked down for that, I'm liberating him. Might need some ninja-moms
to help me...
(No, probably I'll just let him do what he wants to do, as usual.)
I can't believe it's finished,and it didn't take all the hours I thought it
would, and that he rejected some of my ideas. (Good for him all the way
around.)
Maya Angelou wouldn't get a good grade on her essay if she had written it for
this class, if the teacher is going to be as much a stickler for her
particular rules as she claims to be. And Kirby says the teacher keeps mentioning
Stephen King. I'm sure he's had some paragraphs shorter than 100 words, and kept
a lot of his thesis to himself so the reader can do some of the thinking.
(Yeah, yeah... novels and not essays. Still, being a person who has habitually
written essays designed to get people to think, I don't think writing until
there's nothing left to discover makes the best essay.)
I'm really sorry for even writing this. I'm torn between reporting this
stuff and just not saying any schoolish thing ever, EVER, on this list.
Yuck, and I'm sorry.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
free to skip this by. Kirby is 18 and taking a few classes at the community
college.
Kirby loves his math class. When they've had in-class things they've scored,
he's gotten 8 out of ten and 7 out of ten.
He likes the college success class. Today they made 3x5 cards of their
priority projects. Here's what his says:
1 Work on my essey (he misspelled it)
Get a place to do it
Get moms help
follow the step by step walkthrough
Do it!
I hadn't seen that before he came in today and asked me to help him with his
English homework.
It's due Wednesday.
I asked if we could do it in the library,our upstairs room, which has a clean
table this week. (I didn't know he had a list that said 'get a place.')
When I saw his pages and PAGES of instructions and policies and samples, I
was not a bit hopeful. I thought there was no way it would be finished in time.
I have singing practice tomorrow night. He has math tomorrow, and karate
for hours.
The assignment was daunting and the details were making me cranky and I was
trying to be calm and hopeful and peaceful.
He needed a "sentence outline." The sample we finally found in the depths of
his stuff was unclear, but we did one. I could've guessed wrong. I thought
that would be a stopping place, but Kirby was upstairs writing while I was
downstairs printing the outline. My computer's the only one with a printer.
He's finished! Finished a day and a half early.
I never finished anything a day and a half early when I was in college.
Two things bother me: This is the kind of English class to make people
despise English classes. I'm sad about that. It's over-blown pomposity and
obfuscation.
Second thing:
"A paragraph must consist of at least 100 words."
That is not qualified, no "for the purposes of this class," or anything.
There it is, just as though it's fact, law, definition.
And furthermore, it's in a paragraph that's maybe 45 words long. But here it
is with its explanation:
"A paragraph must consist of at least 100 words. Short paragraphs result in
inadequate development of your thesis."
I told Kirby just not to count. I told him if it's interesting enough, the
teacher won't count.
Now I hope I'm right.
I have the urge to liberate him, <g> but he's still having fun.
I've read LOTS and lots of long paragraphs which were the result of lack of
friggin' CLUE about thesis or development, but reeked of the hyperawareness of
word count.
His handwritten language is very tacky looking and hard to read, and he types
fast and well. He's still iffy on the commas and apostrophes and quotation
marks. He usedtoo many quotation marks on his hand-written first draft, and he
didn't use paragraphs, but there were some good phrases and most of them
ended up in the final, though it had a different slant.
Here's the assignment:
**
"New Directions," by Maya Angelou, is a narrative essay about Mrs. Annie
Johnson, an African-American woman who lived int he American South one hundred
years ago. Identify at least three personal attributes that the author obviously
admires in this woman. Explain why she admires these traits. Use examples
from the text to support your statements.
**
Huh.
Just noticed Kirby answered another question.
He wrote about three personal attributes HE admired.
How could he explain why Maya Angelou admires the traits? He would be
guessing, not explaining.
If he's marked down for that, I'm liberating him. Might need some ninja-moms
to help me...
(No, probably I'll just let him do what he wants to do, as usual.)
I can't believe it's finished,and it didn't take all the hours I thought it
would, and that he rejected some of my ideas. (Good for him all the way
around.)
Maya Angelou wouldn't get a good grade on her essay if she had written it for
this class, if the teacher is going to be as much a stickler for her
particular rules as she claims to be. And Kirby says the teacher keeps mentioning
Stephen King. I'm sure he's had some paragraphs shorter than 100 words, and kept
a lot of his thesis to himself so the reader can do some of the thinking.
(Yeah, yeah... novels and not essays. Still, being a person who has habitually
written essays designed to get people to think, I don't think writing until
there's nothing left to discover makes the best essay.)
I'm really sorry for even writing this. I'm torn between reporting this
stuff and just not saying any schoolish thing ever, EVER, on this list.
Yuck, and I'm sorry.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
** And Kirby says the teacher keeps mentioning
Stephen King. **
I believe Mr. King doesn't like adverbs.
He wrote a book "On Writing" that is more a memoir than a how-to-write
book, but it is quite entertaining. (I got it on tape from the library.)
He mentions a childhood babysitter named either Eulah or Beulah who used
to knock him down and sit on him and fart stupefyingly in his face. He
said this was great preparation for enduring literary criticism later in
life. <g>
Betsy
Stephen King. **
I believe Mr. King doesn't like adverbs.
He wrote a book "On Writing" that is more a memoir than a how-to-write
book, but it is quite entertaining. (I got it on tape from the library.)
He mentions a childhood babysitter named either Eulah or Beulah who used
to knock him down and sit on him and fart stupefyingly in his face. He
said this was great preparation for enduring literary criticism later in
life. <g>
Betsy
Angela S
Gosh, don't be sorry Sandra. I find it very interesting to read about
Kirby's transition to college after being unschooled his whole life. Thanks
for sharing it.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
Yuck, and I'm sorry.
Sandra>>>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kirby's transition to college after being unschooled his whole life. Thanks
for sharing it.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
>>>I'm really sorry for even writing this. I'm torn between reporting thisstuff and just not saying any schoolish thing ever, EVER, on this list.
Yuck, and I'm sorry.
Sandra>>>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
April M
Sandra, I appreciate the comments about Kirby's college experience. Kate is
also taking classes, not her first, but her first at the college she's
planning on getting her degree from. It's been an interesting transition.
And mostly positive. Like Kirby, she's never had academic deadlines, never
had to get up for school (oh, the comments I've heard-"how will she know how
to get up when she has to work?"). She followed her interests and lived
life. Now she is taking three classes, works two jobs, volunteers. She has
yet to be late for class, is far more contientious than I ever was about
doing homework and is complaining about a teacher because she figured out in
the first week that in the psych class you don't have to do any reading if
you go to class and listen. Homework is answering questions by lifting the
correct paragraph from the book. No thinking required. Kate says it's a
waste....but she needs the class. And I think these discussions are
applicable to unschooling because so many parents have fears of what will
happen when the kids get older. I know I did. I heard all kinds of horror
stories about what could happen if my children didn't learn at a young age
how to get up with an alarm, how to structure their day, if they didn't have
deadlines and rules to get used to....none of the dire predictions have come
true. For any of my kids. I'm not trying to imply that college is the only
path either...it's the path Kate chose. But she chose it deliberately, not
because that's 'what you're supposed to do at 18'. And not all of my kids
may choose college...but I believe they'll each find their own way as they
get older and will be successful at whatever they do.
~April
Mom to Kate-18, Lisa-15, Karl-13, & Ben-9.
*REACH Homeschool Group, an inclusive group meeting throughout Oakland
County.. http://www.homeschoolingonashoestring.com/REACH_home.html
*Michigan Youth Theater...Acting On Our Dreams...
<http://www.michiganyouththeater.org/>
"A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions."
~~ Oliver Wendell Holmes (1809 - 1894)
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 12:14 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Kirby, school, two weeks in
Apologies to new members or those with little kids, and anyone should feel
free to skip this by. Kirby is 18 and taking a few classes at the
community
college.
Kirby loves his math class. When they've had in-class things they've
scored,
he's gotten 8 out of ten and 7 out of ten.
He likes the college success class. Today they made 3x5 cards of their
priority projects. Here's what his says:
1 Work on my essey (he misspelled it)
Get a place to do it
Get moms help
follow the step by step walkthrough
Do it!
I hadn't seen that before he came in today and asked me to help him with
his
English homework.
It's due Wednesday.
I asked if we could do it in the library,our upstairs room, which has a
clean
table this week. (I didn't know he had a list that said 'get a place.')
When I saw his pages and PAGES of instructions and policies and samples, I
was not a bit hopeful. I thought there was no way it would be finished in
time.
I have singing practice tomorrow night. He has math tomorrow, and karate
for hours.
The assignment was daunting and the details were making me cranky and I
was
trying to be calm and hopeful and peaceful.
He needed a "sentence outline." The sample we finally found in the depths
of
his stuff was unclear, but we did one. I could've guessed wrong. I
thought
that would be a stopping place, but Kirby was upstairs writing while I was
downstairs printing the outline. My computer's the only one with a
printer.
He's finished! Finished a day and a half early.
I never finished anything a day and a half early when I was in college.
Two things bother me: This is the kind of English class to make people
despise English classes. I'm sad about that. It's over-blown pomposity
and
obfuscation.
Second thing:
"A paragraph must consist of at least 100 words."
That is not qualified, no "for the purposes of this class," or anything.
There it is, just as though it's fact, law, definition.
And furthermore, it's in a paragraph that's maybe 45 words long. But here
it
is with its explanation:
"A paragraph must consist of at least 100 words. Short paragraphs result
in
inadequate development of your thesis."
I told Kirby just not to count. I told him if it's interesting enough,
the
teacher won't count.
Now I hope I'm right.
I have the urge to liberate him, <g> but he's still having fun.
I've read LOTS and lots of long paragraphs which were the result of lack
of
friggin' CLUE about thesis or development, but reeked of the
hyperawareness of
word count.
His handwritten language is very tacky looking and hard to read, and he
types
fast and well. He's still iffy on the commas and apostrophes and
quotation
marks. He usedtoo many quotation marks on his hand-written first draft,
and he
didn't use paragraphs, but there were some good phrases and most of them
ended up in the final, though it had a different slant.
Here's the assignment:
**
"New Directions," by Maya Angelou, is a narrative essay about Mrs. Annie
Johnson, an African-American woman who lived int he American South one
hundred
years ago. Identify at least three personal attributes that the author
obviously
admires in this woman. Explain why she admires these traits. Use
examples
from the text to support your statements.
**
Huh.
Just noticed Kirby answered another question.
He wrote about three personal attributes HE admired.
How could he explain why Maya Angelou admires the traits? He would be
guessing, not explaining.
If he's marked down for that, I'm liberating him. Might need some
ninja-moms
to help me...
(No, probably I'll just let him do what he wants to do, as usual.)
I can't believe it's finished,and it didn't take all the hours I thought
it
would, and that he rejected some of my ideas. (Good for him all the way
around.)
Maya Angelou wouldn't get a good grade on her essay if she had written it
for
this class, if the teacher is going to be as much a stickler for her
particular rules as she claims to be. And Kirby says the teacher keeps
mentioning
Stephen King. I'm sure he's had some paragraphs shorter than 100 words,
and kept
a lot of his thesis to himself so the reader can do some of the thinking.
(Yeah, yeah... novels and not essays. Still, being a person who has
habitually
written essays designed to get people to think, I don't think writing
until
there's nothing left to discover makes the best essay.)
I'm really sorry for even writing this. I'm torn between reporting this
stuff and just not saying any schoolish thing ever, EVER, on this list.
Yuck, and I'm sorry.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
also taking classes, not her first, but her first at the college she's
planning on getting her degree from. It's been an interesting transition.
And mostly positive. Like Kirby, she's never had academic deadlines, never
had to get up for school (oh, the comments I've heard-"how will she know how
to get up when she has to work?"). She followed her interests and lived
life. Now she is taking three classes, works two jobs, volunteers. She has
yet to be late for class, is far more contientious than I ever was about
doing homework and is complaining about a teacher because she figured out in
the first week that in the psych class you don't have to do any reading if
you go to class and listen. Homework is answering questions by lifting the
correct paragraph from the book. No thinking required. Kate says it's a
waste....but she needs the class. And I think these discussions are
applicable to unschooling because so many parents have fears of what will
happen when the kids get older. I know I did. I heard all kinds of horror
stories about what could happen if my children didn't learn at a young age
how to get up with an alarm, how to structure their day, if they didn't have
deadlines and rules to get used to....none of the dire predictions have come
true. For any of my kids. I'm not trying to imply that college is the only
path either...it's the path Kate chose. But she chose it deliberately, not
because that's 'what you're supposed to do at 18'. And not all of my kids
may choose college...but I believe they'll each find their own way as they
get older and will be successful at whatever they do.
~April
Mom to Kate-18, Lisa-15, Karl-13, & Ben-9.
*REACH Homeschool Group, an inclusive group meeting throughout Oakland
County.. http://www.homeschoolingonashoestring.com/REACH_home.html
*Michigan Youth Theater...Acting On Our Dreams...
<http://www.michiganyouththeater.org/>
"A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions."
~~ Oliver Wendell Holmes (1809 - 1894)
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 12:14 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Kirby, school, two weeks in
Apologies to new members or those with little kids, and anyone should feel
free to skip this by. Kirby is 18 and taking a few classes at the
community
college.
Kirby loves his math class. When they've had in-class things they've
scored,
he's gotten 8 out of ten and 7 out of ten.
He likes the college success class. Today they made 3x5 cards of their
priority projects. Here's what his says:
1 Work on my essey (he misspelled it)
Get a place to do it
Get moms help
follow the step by step walkthrough
Do it!
I hadn't seen that before he came in today and asked me to help him with
his
English homework.
It's due Wednesday.
I asked if we could do it in the library,our upstairs room, which has a
clean
table this week. (I didn't know he had a list that said 'get a place.')
When I saw his pages and PAGES of instructions and policies and samples, I
was not a bit hopeful. I thought there was no way it would be finished in
time.
I have singing practice tomorrow night. He has math tomorrow, and karate
for hours.
The assignment was daunting and the details were making me cranky and I
was
trying to be calm and hopeful and peaceful.
He needed a "sentence outline." The sample we finally found in the depths
of
his stuff was unclear, but we did one. I could've guessed wrong. I
thought
that would be a stopping place, but Kirby was upstairs writing while I was
downstairs printing the outline. My computer's the only one with a
printer.
He's finished! Finished a day and a half early.
I never finished anything a day and a half early when I was in college.
Two things bother me: This is the kind of English class to make people
despise English classes. I'm sad about that. It's over-blown pomposity
and
obfuscation.
Second thing:
"A paragraph must consist of at least 100 words."
That is not qualified, no "for the purposes of this class," or anything.
There it is, just as though it's fact, law, definition.
And furthermore, it's in a paragraph that's maybe 45 words long. But here
it
is with its explanation:
"A paragraph must consist of at least 100 words. Short paragraphs result
in
inadequate development of your thesis."
I told Kirby just not to count. I told him if it's interesting enough,
the
teacher won't count.
Now I hope I'm right.
I have the urge to liberate him, <g> but he's still having fun.
I've read LOTS and lots of long paragraphs which were the result of lack
of
friggin' CLUE about thesis or development, but reeked of the
hyperawareness of
word count.
His handwritten language is very tacky looking and hard to read, and he
types
fast and well. He's still iffy on the commas and apostrophes and
quotation
marks. He usedtoo many quotation marks on his hand-written first draft,
and he
didn't use paragraphs, but there were some good phrases and most of them
ended up in the final, though it had a different slant.
Here's the assignment:
**
"New Directions," by Maya Angelou, is a narrative essay about Mrs. Annie
Johnson, an African-American woman who lived int he American South one
hundred
years ago. Identify at least three personal attributes that the author
obviously
admires in this woman. Explain why she admires these traits. Use
examples
from the text to support your statements.
**
Huh.
Just noticed Kirby answered another question.
He wrote about three personal attributes HE admired.
How could he explain why Maya Angelou admires the traits? He would be
guessing, not explaining.
If he's marked down for that, I'm liberating him. Might need some
ninja-moms
to help me...
(No, probably I'll just let him do what he wants to do, as usual.)
I can't believe it's finished,and it didn't take all the hours I thought
it
would, and that he rejected some of my ideas. (Good for him all the way
around.)
Maya Angelou wouldn't get a good grade on her essay if she had written it
for
this class, if the teacher is going to be as much a stickler for her
particular rules as she claims to be. And Kirby says the teacher keeps
mentioning
Stephen King. I'm sure he's had some paragraphs shorter than 100 words,
and kept
a lot of his thesis to himself so the reader can do some of the thinking.
(Yeah, yeah... novels and not essays. Still, being a person who has
habitually
written essays designed to get people to think, I don't think writing
until
there's nothing left to discover makes the best essay.)
I'm really sorry for even writing this. I'm torn between reporting this
stuff and just not saying any schoolish thing ever, EVER, on this list.
Yuck, and I'm sorry.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/24/2005 11:19:27 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Second thing:
"A paragraph must consist of at least 100 words."
That is not qualified, no "for the purposes of this class," or anything.
There it is, just as though it's fact, law, definition.
~~~
If Kirby had been in school, he'd know that this was one of the abitraries
of school, and if that instruction had not been in there, he would have known
to ask, "How long should our paragraphs be?" :) He'd just take it in strid
e.
It's better that he doesn't take those things in stride, of course.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
Second thing:
"A paragraph must consist of at least 100 words."
That is not qualified, no "for the purposes of this class," or anything.
There it is, just as though it's fact, law, definition.
~~~
If Kirby had been in school, he'd know that this was one of the abitraries
of school, and if that instruction had not been in there, he would have known
to ask, "How long should our paragraphs be?" :) He'd just take it in strid
e.
It's better that he doesn't take those things in stride, of course.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heidi Here
> Sandra,how other unschooled children are living life freely. Please do not
> Thanks for posting this. I do have older kids and NEED to see/hear
feel bad about posting this, most of the posts are about younger kids
and for those of us with teens and up its really good to see these
posts!
> Have a great day all,[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Heidi
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/25/05 5:38:55 AM, abmorris23@... writes:
<< I heard all kinds of horror
stories about what could happen if my children didn't learn at a young age
how to get up with an alarm, how to structure their day, if they didn't have
deadlines and rules to get used to....none of the dire predictions have come
true. >>
None of that has been a problem.
And maybe the only "problem" is that he doesn't believe that what he writes
will make or break his future.
Hmmm..... He's smart already. <g>
I'm a little afraid this irritating English class will cause him to decide
college is stupid. If he comes to that conclusion, I'd like for it to be on the
basis of several assorted classes, not just one. <bwg>
Honestly, anyone who would slavishly do every single thing this teacher
claims to want would be learning to follow arbitrary rules without having a stroke,
not learning to write.
Sandra
<< I heard all kinds of horror
stories about what could happen if my children didn't learn at a young age
how to get up with an alarm, how to structure their day, if they didn't have
deadlines and rules to get used to....none of the dire predictions have come
true. >>
None of that has been a problem.
And maybe the only "problem" is that he doesn't believe that what he writes
will make or break his future.
Hmmm..... He's smart already. <g>
I'm a little afraid this irritating English class will cause him to decide
college is stupid. If he comes to that conclusion, I'd like for it to be on the
basis of several assorted classes, not just one. <bwg>
Honestly, anyone who would slavishly do every single thing this teacher
claims to want would be learning to follow arbitrary rules without having a stroke,
not learning to write.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/25/05 7:41:38 AM, tuckervill2@... writes:
<< If Kirby had been in school, he'd know that this was one of the abitraries
of school, and if that instruction had not been in there, he would have known
to ask, "How long should our paragraphs be?" :) He'd just take it in
stride. >>
Yeah, I guess.
It just sits in stark contrast to our many years of lack of bullshit. I
haven't told him things ARE or MUST BE. We've always really talked about things
truthfully and now he runs up against truth that exists because someone has a
PhD or Master's degree and an academic position. I knew of those pockets of
Truth Lite and Truth Temporary, but I hadn't thought he'd need to know so soon
(or maybe, I fantasized, *ever*).
Sandra
<< If Kirby had been in school, he'd know that this was one of the abitraries
of school, and if that instruction had not been in there, he would have known
to ask, "How long should our paragraphs be?" :) He'd just take it in
stride. >>
Yeah, I guess.
It just sits in stark contrast to our many years of lack of bullshit. I
haven't told him things ARE or MUST BE. We've always really talked about things
truthfully and now he runs up against truth that exists because someone has a
PhD or Master's degree and an academic position. I knew of those pockets of
Truth Lite and Truth Temporary, but I hadn't thought he'd need to know so soon
(or maybe, I fantasized, *ever*).
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/25/05 10:18:32 AM, kleincrew@... writes:
<< I do have older kids and NEED to see/hear
how other unschooled children are living life freely. Please do not
feel bad about posting this, most of the posts are about younger kids
and for those of us with teens and up its really good to see these
posts! >>
Well thanks, and while I kind of see the point I think my concern is that
it's not only about school and schoolishness, but I'm afraid someone will pass
through quickly and think that I thought college was really an important
end-goal. I don't anymore, though when we first started I just kind of assumed the
kids would all go to college.
My view of the world hs changed because of unschooling.
Sandra
<< I do have older kids and NEED to see/hear
how other unschooled children are living life freely. Please do not
feel bad about posting this, most of the posts are about younger kids
and for those of us with teens and up its really good to see these
posts! >>
Well thanks, and while I kind of see the point I think my concern is that
it's not only about school and schoolishness, but I'm afraid someone will pass
through quickly and think that I thought college was really an important
end-goal. I don't anymore, though when we first started I just kind of assumed the
kids would all go to college.
My view of the world hs changed because of unschooling.
Sandra
Elizabeth Hill
** Honestly, anyone who would slavishly do every single thing this teacher
claims to want would be learning to follow arbitrary rules without
having a stroke,
not learning to write.**
Isn't that the system? To figure out who will make good sheep for
lower-level corporate jobs? To test for rule-following ability and to
screen out the rebelliously inclined?
The thought about writing that makes me totally insane is the idea of
trying to develop an essay test for the SAT (or similar level test) that
can be completely computer-graded, to reduce cost. What kind of dumb
writing-grading rules would a system like that use?
::::::: getting off of high horse :::::::: ::::::::: heading off for
the open road :::::::
Betsy
claims to want would be learning to follow arbitrary rules without
having a stroke,
not learning to write.**
Isn't that the system? To figure out who will make good sheep for
lower-level corporate jobs? To test for rule-following ability and to
screen out the rebelliously inclined?
The thought about writing that makes me totally insane is the idea of
trying to develop an essay test for the SAT (or similar level test) that
can be completely computer-graded, to reduce cost. What kind of dumb
writing-grading rules would a system like that use?
::::::: getting off of high horse :::::::: ::::::::: heading off for
the open road :::::::
Betsy
Cally Brown
>Here in New Zealand we used to have a national examination called School
>
>Maya Angelou wouldn't get a good grade on her essay if she had written it for
>this class, if the teacher is going to be as much a stickler for her
>particular rules as she claims to be.
>
Certificate, which was for 15yos - not sure what grade level that is in
the USA. Anyway, a few years ago there was a tremendous outcry when
part of the English exam involved a comprehension / critique exercise of
a piece of writing by a New Zealand author: not only did most of the
kids get the answers 'wrong', but the author came out and said he would
have got the answers wrong also. The interpretation given by the
examiners had nothing to do with HIS story!!
Cally
Sylvia Toyama
I'm a little afraid this irritating English class will cause him to decide college is stupid. If he comes to that conclusion, I'd like for it to be on the basis of several assorted classes, not just one. <bwg>
****
If he lets one class convince him that college is stupid, we'll all know that it's because he's smart enough to not need to be hit over the head with several classes to see the truth. <g>
Sylvia
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
****
If he lets one class convince him that college is stupid, we'll all know that it's because he's smart enough to not need to be hit over the head with several classes to see the truth. <g>
Sylvia
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
arcarpenter2003
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
often *do* run fewer than 100 words in all kinds of essays, some of
them very effective. But I think her rule is her way of dealing with
students who are used to getting by and using quantitative means to do
so. She's dealing with the shortcomings of the system (I agree, not
well, but it seems like that's where it's coming from). If Kirby
talks to her on a personal level, during office hours, and nicely asks
her to explain herself -- that's a good way to bypass the system and
problems like this one.
I found college to be fun and more personal once I discovered the
"trick" of talking to profs during office hours. I didn't have to
like them (though I often did), but I did get to hold them accountable
for my time and my tuition dollars. I paid for my own education and
had to work a lot, so that was a very real issue to me. I think
having been unschooled will give Kirby the same sense that *he's* the
one in control of this experience, to a very large degree.
Peace,
Amy
> Second thing:anything.
> "A paragraph must consist of at least 100 words."
>
>
> That is not qualified, no "for the purposes of this class," or
> There it is, just as though it's fact, law, definition.But here it
>
> And furthermore, it's in a paragraph that's maybe 45 words long.
> is with its explanation:result in
>
> "A paragraph must consist of at least 100 words. Short paragraphs
> inadequate development of your thesis."I won't defend the sloppiness of this teacher -- obviously paragraphs
often *do* run fewer than 100 words in all kinds of essays, some of
them very effective. But I think her rule is her way of dealing with
students who are used to getting by and using quantitative means to do
so. She's dealing with the shortcomings of the system (I agree, not
well, but it seems like that's where it's coming from). If Kirby
talks to her on a personal level, during office hours, and nicely asks
her to explain herself -- that's a good way to bypass the system and
problems like this one.
I found college to be fun and more personal once I discovered the
"trick" of talking to profs during office hours. I didn't have to
like them (though I often did), but I did get to hold them accountable
for my time and my tuition dollars. I paid for my own education and
had to work a lot, so that was a very real issue to me. I think
having been unschooled will give Kirby the same sense that *he's* the
one in control of this experience, to a very large degree.
Peace,
Amy
Jenny Altenbach
arcarpenter2003 wrote:
thinking about a lot lately. When I don't have small children to raise
and a house to build, I sometimes work part time as a biology instructor
at TVI (the same place where Kirby is going). I teach courses for
biology majors and for non-majors, and by far my favorite is Biology 100
for non-majors. In this course I am able to offer a semester long
project where the students can choose to either write a paper or
volunteer at a local agency that is involved in biology in some way.
TVI sponsors this program, which is known as "experiential learning"
(which totally cracks me up now that I have a better understanding of
unschooling). Anyway, since I have learned more about unschooling I
have been thinking of ways to apply some of the principles of
unschooling to a college course, especially an introductory one like
this (the one for majors is pretty inflexible in terms of assessment).
I'd like the students to know that I trust that they will learn as much
or as little as they desire. Some of them are in the course because
they want to be, while others are there to fulfill a requirement. I
have some broad thoughts about how I might approach this, which I'll run
by y'all later, but right now I'm wondering if anyone else out there
teaches in a traditional setting with required syllabi, testing, and so
on. I guess that's where I'd like to start--by asking if any of you
have BTDT?
have to "play" me to get the grade. That it is up to them to decide how
much they want to get out of my course.
Thoughts?
Jenny
>This seems like a good time to bring up something that I have been
> --- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> > Second thing:
> > "A paragraph must consist of at least 100 words."
> >
> >
> > That is not qualified, no "for the purposes of this class," or
> anything.
> > There it is, just as though it's fact, law, definition.
> >
> > And furthermore, it's in a paragraph that's maybe 45 words long.
> But here it
> > is with its explanation:
> >
> > "A paragraph must consist of at least 100 words. Short paragraphs
> result in
> > inadequate development of your thesis."
>
>
> I won't defend the sloppiness of this teacher -- obviously paragraphs
> often *do* run fewer than 100 words in all kinds of essays, some of
> them very effective. But I think her rule is her way of dealing with
> students who are used to getting by and using quantitative means to do
> so. She's dealing with the shortcomings of the system (I agree, not
> well, but it seems like that's where it's coming from). If Kirby
> talks to her on a personal level, during office hours, and nicely asks
> her to explain herself -- that's a good way to bypass the system and
> problems like this one.
thinking about a lot lately. When I don't have small children to raise
and a house to build, I sometimes work part time as a biology instructor
at TVI (the same place where Kirby is going). I teach courses for
biology majors and for non-majors, and by far my favorite is Biology 100
for non-majors. In this course I am able to offer a semester long
project where the students can choose to either write a paper or
volunteer at a local agency that is involved in biology in some way.
TVI sponsors this program, which is known as "experiential learning"
(which totally cracks me up now that I have a better understanding of
unschooling). Anyway, since I have learned more about unschooling I
have been thinking of ways to apply some of the principles of
unschooling to a college course, especially an introductory one like
this (the one for majors is pretty inflexible in terms of assessment).
I'd like the students to know that I trust that they will learn as much
or as little as they desire. Some of them are in the course because
they want to be, while others are there to fulfill a requirement. I
have some broad thoughts about how I might approach this, which I'll run
by y'all later, but right now I'm wondering if anyone else out there
teaches in a traditional setting with required syllabi, testing, and so
on. I guess that's where I'd like to start--by asking if any of you
have BTDT?
>See, this is what I'd like my students to understand. That they don't
> I found college to be fun and more personal once I discovered the
> "trick" of talking to profs during office hours. I didn't have to
> like them (though I often did), but I did get to hold them accountable
> for my time and my tuition dollars. I paid for my own education and
> had to work a lot, so that was a very real issue to me. I think
> having been unschooled will give Kirby the same sense that *he's* the
> one in control of this experience, to a very large degree.
have to "play" me to get the grade. That it is up to them to decide how
much they want to get out of my course.
Thoughts?
Jenny
>
tarazspot
Sandra worte:
"Identify at least three personal attributes that the author
obviously
admires in this woman. Explain why she admires these traits. Use
examples
from the text to support your statements.
**
Huh.
Just noticed Kirby answered another question.
He wrote about three personal attributes HE admired"
Kirby actually managed to turn this assignment in to something
WORTHWHILE! What a wonderfully gifted young man! To gain insight into
a character and thus gain understanding and insight into ourselves is
so much more powerful then attempting to explain what the author
thinks. That is, like you said, just a guess at best anyway. If
education were geared to open the doorways into our own thoughts,
beliefs, and desires then and only then could it actually serve a
necesasary function. But alas no, education serves only to tell us
what to think not how to think, furthering the notion that are own
thoughts are just not good enough.
I do hope as you do that his teacher is not all rules and form. In
short, I hope she sees the genuis in Kirby but I fear that may not be
the case. Luckily for Kirby he has a mother who stands behind him to
let him know that his thoughts do have value, think of all the kids
in all forms of school who have parents that stand along side the
teacher. These childern are really left believing that their thoughts
are wrong and therefore worthless.
Tara
"Identify at least three personal attributes that the author
obviously
admires in this woman. Explain why she admires these traits. Use
examples
from the text to support your statements.
**
Huh.
Just noticed Kirby answered another question.
He wrote about three personal attributes HE admired"
Kirby actually managed to turn this assignment in to something
WORTHWHILE! What a wonderfully gifted young man! To gain insight into
a character and thus gain understanding and insight into ourselves is
so much more powerful then attempting to explain what the author
thinks. That is, like you said, just a guess at best anyway. If
education were geared to open the doorways into our own thoughts,
beliefs, and desires then and only then could it actually serve a
necesasary function. But alas no, education serves only to tell us
what to think not how to think, furthering the notion that are own
thoughts are just not good enough.
I do hope as you do that his teacher is not all rules and form. In
short, I hope she sees the genuis in Kirby but I fear that may not be
the case. Luckily for Kirby he has a mother who stands behind him to
let him know that his thoughts do have value, think of all the kids
in all forms of school who have parents that stand along side the
teacher. These childern are really left believing that their thoughts
are wrong and therefore worthless.
Tara
tinajoyulrich
> Wow! Sandra, don't apologize for posting this stuff! This is(10
> exactly what I'm dealing with right now. I have two unschoolers
> & 13) and a very determined 15yo who insists on staying inschool.
> It's driving me nuts to watch her study for midterms this week.about
> It's all so inane and I know from my own experience that all that
> info has no meaning in real life and that whe will never think
> it again. She knows it too, I think. It kills me to think of howand
> she could be spending that time and energy.
>
> (Hmmmmm. Were there enough words in that paragraph?)
>
> So, thanks! I would LOVE to hear about Kirby's college classes
> your thoughts on "higher education" as seen through the eyes of antuition
> unschooling mom. A couple of years ago we started pre-paid
> programs for all three kids. It will pay two years at a stateto
> school for each. Now I'm having second thoughts. Will they want
> go to college? What will they do if they don't? Wouldn't that
> money be better spent NOW on traveling, books, music lessons,
> concerts, legos, goats, go-karts, software, another computer, etc.?
>
> So, yes. Please continue! :-)
>
> Tina
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/26/05 1:04:58 AM, TarazSpot@... writes:
<< Just noticed Kirby answered another question.
He wrote about three personal attributes HE admired"
<< Kirby actually managed to turn this assignment in to something
WORTHWHILE! What a wonderfully gifted young man! >>
Or maybe he just didn't read the directions carefully. <g>
I'm a little unbalanced about how much to press him to "read the directions
carefully" and how much to stand back and let it go its own way. He did ask me
for help. Then I'm left to define "help," because if I do a half-assed job
on purpose, he might not appreciate it. If I do a teacher-supporting "get back
here and do another draft" to-the-wall "help," I'm going into territory I
don't want to defend.
We'll know more after this paper's graded, I guess.
His five paragraphs were 408 words (Macs like to do word count <g>). The
checklist (a full page long) reiterated the 100 words per paragraph thing, and I
asked him last night before we printed the final copy whether he wanted to pad
it out. He said no, because sh had also said to use as few words as
necessary to say what you want to say. He seemed not a bit anxious or worried, and
happy with it as it was.
Sandra
<< Just noticed Kirby answered another question.
He wrote about three personal attributes HE admired"
<< Kirby actually managed to turn this assignment in to something
WORTHWHILE! What a wonderfully gifted young man! >>
Or maybe he just didn't read the directions carefully. <g>
I'm a little unbalanced about how much to press him to "read the directions
carefully" and how much to stand back and let it go its own way. He did ask me
for help. Then I'm left to define "help," because if I do a half-assed job
on purpose, he might not appreciate it. If I do a teacher-supporting "get back
here and do another draft" to-the-wall "help," I'm going into territory I
don't want to defend.
We'll know more after this paper's graded, I guess.
His five paragraphs were 408 words (Macs like to do word count <g>). The
checklist (a full page long) reiterated the 100 words per paragraph thing, and I
asked him last night before we printed the final copy whether he wanted to pad
it out. He said no, because sh had also said to use as few words as
necessary to say what you want to say. He seemed not a bit anxious or worried, and
happy with it as it was.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/25/05 7:21:14 PM, arcarpenter@... writes:
<< I won't defend the sloppiness of this teacher -- obviously paragraphs
often *do* run fewer than 100 words in all kinds of essays, some of
them very effective. But I think her rule is her way of dealing with
students who are used to getting by and using quantitative means to do
so. >>
Using quantitive means to fight quantitative means?
Writing's not about counting or measuring.
-=-If Kirby
talks to her on a personal level, during office hours, and nicely asks
her to explain herself -- that's a good way to bypass the system and
problems like this one.-=-
She has the right to make her arbitrary rules, and he has the right to follow
or ignore or whatever. He can drop the class or change to an ungraded option
if he wants. I don't think he cares enough to spend the time to go up there
and talk to her. He might later, but right now, he's had to make room in his
busy social life for these classes already. <g>
Keith the dad is having a GREAT time living vicariously through Kirby. Keith
had some friends at that age, but Kirby has LOTS. Keith was ridiculed at
home and at school for being fat and he had a lot of closed-down posture and
attitude and some over-the-top bravado when he was a teen. Kirby has none of
that, and Keith LOVES seeing him be whole and tall and confident. (Not literally
as tall as Keith was, but spiritually and emotionally tall and upright.)
-=-I found college to be fun and more personal once I discovered the
"trick" of talking to profs during office hours. I didn't have to
like them (though I often did), but I did get to hold them accountable
for my time and my tuition dollars. I paid for my own education and
had to work a lot, so that was a very real issue to me. I think
having been unschooled will give Kirby the same sense that *he's* the
one in control of this experience, to a very large degree.-=-
If he were headed straight toward a degree for a purpose, that would make
sense. He's just toe-in-the-water at this point, seeing if he likes it. They
dynamic is not such at this point that he has the urge to negotiate for a grade
or whatever.
He doesn't need her positive regard to feel whole. It's so weird to see
someone that calm. I remember the edgy, nervous energy in and all around me
when I was a college freshman.
Sandra
<< I won't defend the sloppiness of this teacher -- obviously paragraphs
often *do* run fewer than 100 words in all kinds of essays, some of
them very effective. But I think her rule is her way of dealing with
students who are used to getting by and using quantitative means to do
so. >>
Using quantitive means to fight quantitative means?
Writing's not about counting or measuring.
-=-If Kirby
talks to her on a personal level, during office hours, and nicely asks
her to explain herself -- that's a good way to bypass the system and
problems like this one.-=-
She has the right to make her arbitrary rules, and he has the right to follow
or ignore or whatever. He can drop the class or change to an ungraded option
if he wants. I don't think he cares enough to spend the time to go up there
and talk to her. He might later, but right now, he's had to make room in his
busy social life for these classes already. <g>
Keith the dad is having a GREAT time living vicariously through Kirby. Keith
had some friends at that age, but Kirby has LOTS. Keith was ridiculed at
home and at school for being fat and he had a lot of closed-down posture and
attitude and some over-the-top bravado when he was a teen. Kirby has none of
that, and Keith LOVES seeing him be whole and tall and confident. (Not literally
as tall as Keith was, but spiritually and emotionally tall and upright.)
-=-I found college to be fun and more personal once I discovered the
"trick" of talking to profs during office hours. I didn't have to
like them (though I often did), but I did get to hold them accountable
for my time and my tuition dollars. I paid for my own education and
had to work a lot, so that was a very real issue to me. I think
having been unschooled will give Kirby the same sense that *he's* the
one in control of this experience, to a very large degree.-=-
If he were headed straight toward a degree for a purpose, that would make
sense. He's just toe-in-the-water at this point, seeing if he likes it. They
dynamic is not such at this point that he has the urge to negotiate for a grade
or whatever.
He doesn't need her positive regard to feel whole. It's so weird to see
someone that calm. I remember the edgy, nervous energy in and all around me
when I was a college freshman.
Sandra
Pam Sorooshian
On Jan 25, 2005, at 7:29 PM, Jenny Altenbach wrote:
traditionally (except I use a variety of activities from a book called:
"Teaching Economics as if People Mattered") but I work with each
individual student to come up with a semester project of their own and
I encourage them to be creative in designing their project AND I let
them combine it with something they might be doing for another course,
if the other professor also agrees. A great example was a student who
was taking a photography course - she took pictures to show the
disparity between high-income housing and low-income housing in Los
Angeles. The pictures were captioned with current information about
income distribution. Her photography teacher liked them so much that
she was chosen as one of the few students to have her own show in the
photo department's gallery that semester. It was a FAR more valuable
activity than having her write a research paper.
I also offer them a choice of reading a couple of science fiction books
as their semester project, such as Frederick Pohl's "Midas World" or
George Orwell's, "1984." I make suggestions - they can choose. I was
THRILLED today after class - a former student came up and told me he
had never read for pleasure at all - only reads for school (he is
planning to be a pharmacist). But he read decided to choose to read a
couple of science fiction books off my list, for my class, and it got
him hooked and now he reads all the time. He said he'd thought science
fiction wasn't very good literature, before, but found out that it is
really thought-provoking and entertaining.
-pam
> Some of them are in the course becauseYes. I teach introductory economics courses. I teach fairly
> they want to be, while others are there to fulfill a requirement. I
> have some broad thoughts about how I might approach this, which I'll
> run
> by y'all later, but right now I'm wondering if anyone else out there
> teaches in a traditional setting with required syllabi, testing, and so
> on. I guess that's where I'd like to start--by asking if any of you
> have BTDT?
traditionally (except I use a variety of activities from a book called:
"Teaching Economics as if People Mattered") but I work with each
individual student to come up with a semester project of their own and
I encourage them to be creative in designing their project AND I let
them combine it with something they might be doing for another course,
if the other professor also agrees. A great example was a student who
was taking a photography course - she took pictures to show the
disparity between high-income housing and low-income housing in Los
Angeles. The pictures were captioned with current information about
income distribution. Her photography teacher liked them so much that
she was chosen as one of the few students to have her own show in the
photo department's gallery that semester. It was a FAR more valuable
activity than having her write a research paper.
I also offer them a choice of reading a couple of science fiction books
as their semester project, such as Frederick Pohl's "Midas World" or
George Orwell's, "1984." I make suggestions - they can choose. I was
THRILLED today after class - a former student came up and told me he
had never read for pleasure at all - only reads for school (he is
planning to be a pharmacist). But he read decided to choose to read a
couple of science fiction books off my list, for my class, and it got
him hooked and now he reads all the time. He said he'd thought science
fiction wasn't very good literature, before, but found out that it is
really thought-provoking and entertaining.
-pam
Pam Sorooshian
On Jan 26, 2005, at 6:56 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
really irate.
But I might ask: "How will this teacher react if you don't exactly
follow directions?"
Once the kids are in that college environment, the reality is that
there will be great teachers, awful teachers, and so-so teachers and
the kids learning to get what they want from the courses is a skill
they have to figure out.
-pam
> I'm a little unbalanced about how much to press him to "read theI NEVER defend the teacher's idiocies. I gripe about them and get
> directions
> carefully" and how much to stand back and let it go its own way. He
> did ask me
> for help. Then I'm left to define "help," because if I do a
> half-assed job
> on purpose, he might not appreciate it. If I do a teacher-supporting
> "get back
> here and do another draft" to-the-wall "help," I'm going into
> territory I
> don't want to defend.
really irate.
But I might ask: "How will this teacher react if you don't exactly
follow directions?"
Once the kids are in that college environment, the reality is that
there will be great teachers, awful teachers, and so-so teachers and
the kids learning to get what they want from the courses is a skill
they have to figure out.
-pam
Julie Bogart
Couple quick thoughts to help out Kirby (and you). :)
want to know "what's required" so they can do that and no more. By stating what a
paragraph "is" in no unequivocal terms, the student cannot just say to the teacher he
didn't know how long the teacher was expecting... and so it goes.
If Kirby writes *well* and is in depth in his support (if his syntax is strong and clear and
natural) those "rules" won't even be noticed by the teacher, nine times out of ten.
or the professor. Instead, use the professor to get what he needs to become an effective
writer. My husband teaches freshman comp (has for fifteen years). I teach composition too
and substitute at the college level.
What impresses teachers the most (imho) is a student who is eager to learn, who takes
input seriously and who is wanting to improve the piece because it can be improved, not
because he needs a better grade.
Most comp professors love to teach and wish more students loved to learn.
mess mechanically. Just a fact of human nature. I would work as his editor (as his mom)
and help him to make corrections before turning in the final draft.
question I think.
is.
minimum. That's all that rule meant, I'm sure of it.
shocking, don't you think?
Julie
>These "rules" in school are for kids who are used to doing the minimum of work. Most kids
> Second thing:
> "A paragraph must consist of at least 100 words."
>
want to know "what's required" so they can do that and no more. By stating what a
paragraph "is" in no unequivocal terms, the student cannot just say to the teacher he
didn't know how long the teacher was expecting... and so it goes.
If Kirby writes *well* and is in depth in his support (if his syntax is strong and clear and
natural) those "rules" won't even be noticed by the teacher, nine times out of ten.
>I think you're right.
> I told Kirby just not to count. I told him if it's interesting enough, the
> teacher won't count.
> Now I hope I'm right.
>I hope I'm not out of line here. I would suggest not worrying too much about all the details
> I have the urge to liberate him, <g> but he's still having fun.
>
> I've read LOTS and lots of long paragraphs which were the result of lack of
> friggin' CLUE about thesis or development, but reeked of the hyperawareness of
> word count.
or the professor. Instead, use the professor to get what he needs to become an effective
writer. My husband teaches freshman comp (has for fifteen years). I teach composition too
and substitute at the college level.
What impresses teachers the most (imho) is a student who is eager to learn, who takes
input seriously and who is wanting to improve the piece because it can be improved, not
because he needs a better grade.
Most comp professors love to teach and wish more students loved to learn.
>For first drafts, that will work. But it is a deterrent to reading quality writing (prose) if it's a
> His handwritten language is very tacky looking and hard to read, and he types
> fast and well. He's still iffy on the commas and apostrophes and quotation
> marks. He usedtoo many quotation marks on his hand-written first draft, and he
> didn't use paragraphs, but there were some good phrases and most of them
> ended up in the final, though it had a different slant.
mess mechanically. Just a fact of human nature. I would work as his editor (as his mom)
and help him to make corrections before turning in the final draft.
> Just noticed Kirby answered another question.The prompt is asking you to surmise Angelou's opinion through the writing. It's a fair
> He wrote about three personal attributes HE admired.
>
> How could he explain why Maya Angelou admires the traits? He would be
> guessing, not explaining.
question I think.
>Hey it's a first essay. This is just the one the prof uses to get a feel for what level the class
> If he's marked down for that, I'm liberating him. Might need some ninja-moms
> to help me...
> (No, probably I'll just let him do what he wants to do, as usual.)
is.
>Lol. Sandra, relax! <bg> Remember, most kids don't want to write more than the
> I can't believe it's finished,and it didn't take all the hours I thought it
> would, and that he rejected some of my ideas. (Good for him all the way
> around.)
>
> Maya Angelou wouldn't get a good grade on her essay if she had written it for
> this class, if the teacher is going to be as much a stickler for her
> particular rules as she claims to be. And Kirby says the teacher keeps mentioning
> Stephen King. I'm sure he's had some paragraphs shorter than 100 words, and kept
> a lot of his thesis to himself so the reader can do some of the thinking.
> (Yeah, yeah... novels and not essays. Still, being a person who has habitually
> written essays designed to get people to think, I don't think writing until
> there's nothing left to discover makes the best essay.)
minimum. That's all that rule meant, I'm sure of it.
>Lol. We all like to hear real life examples. The transition to someone else's agenda is so
> I'm really sorry for even writing this. I'm torn between reporting this
> stuff and just not saying any schoolish thing ever, EVER, on this list.
shocking, don't you think?
Julie
[email protected]
-=-=-=-=-=- (except I use a variety of activities from a book called: "Teaching Economics as if People Mattered") -=-=-=-\
Boy, wouldn't that be a good title for a teacher's manual? "Treating Children as if They Mattered"
~Kelly
Boy, wouldn't that be a good title for a teacher's manual? "Treating Children as if They Mattered"
~Kelly
nellebelle
The most important things I learned through college writing (English classes and writing assignments in other classes) are:
The importance of repeat drafts. The first draft is to get your ideas out. Then you modify your ideas. Then you go over with a fine tooth comb for spelling, punctuation, and grammar. Then you have someone else check it and you fix any errors they found.
The value of peer editing and editors. Professional writers always have someone else go over their stuff, both for content and accuracy. My favorite writing prof had us edit each other in the class and also hand in 3 drafts of each assignment before the final paper. English and writing weren't my major, but I took extra classes from her because I enjoyed the first one I took from her so much.
Format does matter. If a student bothers to take care with spelling, punctuation, and grammar, it is easier for the prof to focus on whether the assignment accomplished what it was supposed to. However, as someone else said, if the student covers the assignment well and bothers to edit, the prof will be likely to overlook minor details such as exact word count.
As for total length, OSU required lots of majors to take a particular technical writing course. Most of the teachers assigned 20 page papers for the final project. The teacher I had assigned a 5 page final. He said nobody in the business world has time to read lengthy reports. He stressed brevity and clarity.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The importance of repeat drafts. The first draft is to get your ideas out. Then you modify your ideas. Then you go over with a fine tooth comb for spelling, punctuation, and grammar. Then you have someone else check it and you fix any errors they found.
The value of peer editing and editors. Professional writers always have someone else go over their stuff, both for content and accuracy. My favorite writing prof had us edit each other in the class and also hand in 3 drafts of each assignment before the final paper. English and writing weren't my major, but I took extra classes from her because I enjoyed the first one I took from her so much.
Format does matter. If a student bothers to take care with spelling, punctuation, and grammar, it is easier for the prof to focus on whether the assignment accomplished what it was supposed to. However, as someone else said, if the student covers the assignment well and bothers to edit, the prof will be likely to overlook minor details such as exact word count.
As for total length, OSU required lots of majors to take a particular technical writing course. Most of the teachers assigned 20 page papers for the final project. The teacher I had assigned a 5 page final. He said nobody in the business world has time to read lengthy reports. He stressed brevity and clarity.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Emile Snyder
On Tue, 2005-01-25 at 19:29, Jenny Altenbach wrote:
out of a class? It doesn't take too many years as a child of being
rewarded for pursuing the extrinsic goal of good grades and being
punished for pursuing the intrinsic goals of personal interest and
pleasure in learning (at the expense of grades) before you get a student
population skewed pretty heavily in the grade oriented direction. If
your students are primarily motivated by getting good grades, then they
do in fact have to play you; you are in charge of grading them.
I'm intrigued by your desires to bring an unschooling sensibility to
conventional classes, but somewhat skeptical about the possibility.
What changes are you willing to make to demonstrate that your students
don't have to "play" you for grades? How much of the system to you feel
is worthwhile?
For instance, I took a scientific computing course in college from an
emeritus professor who's whole life was his research. He maintained
formal ties to the college in order to get access to computing
facilities and suchlike, and the college pretty much left him alone to
do his thing because he published great stuff. Every now and again he
would teach this course, and it would basically be a series of lectures
about the current state of the art in research in a bunch of areas of
scientific computing, and students would pick research problems and try
to make progress on them. He always told the class at the beginning
that he was going to give everyone an A, and he always followed
through. He just wanted to explore interesting problems, and get the
class to do so as well. He was disturbingly smart, and it was one of
the most challenging courses I ever took.
Would you ever pursue this method of letting students pursue their own
interests? If not, why not? It was very disturbing to many students;
once you've been convinced to care about the grade, then arbitrariness
in their awarding is very painful, and profoundly unfair feeling.
Thanks,
-emile
> arcarpenter2003 wrote:Well, this is an interesting question. What is it that students do want
> See, this is what I'd like my students to understand. That they don't
> have to "play" me to get the grade. That it is up to them to decide how
> much they want to get out of my course.
out of a class? It doesn't take too many years as a child of being
rewarded for pursuing the extrinsic goal of good grades and being
punished for pursuing the intrinsic goals of personal interest and
pleasure in learning (at the expense of grades) before you get a student
population skewed pretty heavily in the grade oriented direction. If
your students are primarily motivated by getting good grades, then they
do in fact have to play you; you are in charge of grading them.
I'm intrigued by your desires to bring an unschooling sensibility to
conventional classes, but somewhat skeptical about the possibility.
What changes are you willing to make to demonstrate that your students
don't have to "play" you for grades? How much of the system to you feel
is worthwhile?
For instance, I took a scientific computing course in college from an
emeritus professor who's whole life was his research. He maintained
formal ties to the college in order to get access to computing
facilities and suchlike, and the college pretty much left him alone to
do his thing because he published great stuff. Every now and again he
would teach this course, and it would basically be a series of lectures
about the current state of the art in research in a bunch of areas of
scientific computing, and students would pick research problems and try
to make progress on them. He always told the class at the beginning
that he was going to give everyone an A, and he always followed
through. He just wanted to explore interesting problems, and get the
class to do so as well. He was disturbingly smart, and it was one of
the most challenging courses I ever took.
Would you ever pursue this method of letting students pursue their own
interests? If not, why not? It was very disturbing to many students;
once you've been convinced to care about the grade, then arbitrariness
in their awarding is very painful, and profoundly unfair feeling.
Thanks,
-emile
> Thoughts?
>
> Jenny
Elizabeth Hill
** Boy, wouldn't that be a good title for a teacher's manual? "Treating
Children as if They Mattered"**
Great idea. We have a culture that disrespects the abilities of
children and a school system that sometimes uses dishonesty to get kids
to perform. These things become so ingrained and seem so "normal" that
it can be difficult to assess them clearly.
I wanted to connect this back to the lengthy discussion a monthh ago
about the (hypothetical) mom looking through a microscope and possibly
remarking "Gee, this is interesting. Come take a look." (My phrasing
added). I believe it should go without saying that one doesn't say
"Gee, this is interesting" to one's kids unless the item IS interesting
and the parent is speaking truthfully. This seems like a pretty simple
standard of honesty. But there can be so much dishonesty and faking of
interest by teachers in school, that one may start to suspect dishonesty
will follow whenever a schoolish agenda is present.
Betsy
Children as if They Mattered"**
Great idea. We have a culture that disrespects the abilities of
children and a school system that sometimes uses dishonesty to get kids
to perform. These things become so ingrained and seem so "normal" that
it can be difficult to assess them clearly.
I wanted to connect this back to the lengthy discussion a monthh ago
about the (hypothetical) mom looking through a microscope and possibly
remarking "Gee, this is interesting. Come take a look." (My phrasing
added). I believe it should go without saying that one doesn't say
"Gee, this is interesting" to one's kids unless the item IS interesting
and the parent is speaking truthfully. This seems like a pretty simple
standard of honesty. But there can be so much dishonesty and faking of
interest by teachers in school, that one may start to suspect dishonesty
will follow whenever a schoolish agenda is present.
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/26/05 12:58:39 PM, julie@... writes:
<< Lol. We all like to hear real life examples. The transition to someone
else's agenda is so
shocking, don't you think? >>
Yes, and I feel the sinking feeling of having protected him from arbitrary
school craziness all these years and now he wants me to help him with it.
Maybe that's the problem. If he were off far away someone else could help
him who wouldn't be personally traumatized. <g>
But the good thing about me helping him is I can say "100 words is HER rule,
for this class, not the definition of a paragraph the world over." I'd like
to do that without the full-on eye-rolling and clucking that might make him
think I think the whole thing is stupid. Because I don't think it's stupid, I
just wish she hadn't built it up hugely and then laid it out to calcify. It's
such a concrete block sculpture where it could have been a butterfly.
Language is alive, but not the way it's being taught in that class.
Kirby doesn't know anyone else in that class. He said in his other two
classes they work in groups and talk and joke, but in the English class nobody
chats–-they don't even look at each other.
Sandra
<< Lol. We all like to hear real life examples. The transition to someone
else's agenda is so
shocking, don't you think? >>
Yes, and I feel the sinking feeling of having protected him from arbitrary
school craziness all these years and now he wants me to help him with it.
Maybe that's the problem. If he were off far away someone else could help
him who wouldn't be personally traumatized. <g>
But the good thing about me helping him is I can say "100 words is HER rule,
for this class, not the definition of a paragraph the world over." I'd like
to do that without the full-on eye-rolling and clucking that might make him
think I think the whole thing is stupid. Because I don't think it's stupid, I
just wish she hadn't built it up hugely and then laid it out to calcify. It's
such a concrete block sculpture where it could have been a butterfly.
Language is alive, but not the way it's being taught in that class.
Kirby doesn't know anyone else in that class. He said in his other two
classes they work in groups and talk and joke, but in the English class nobody
chats–-they don't even look at each other.
Sandra