Curbing undesirable behavior (Re: Economics)
Shannon Entin
At 08:45 AM 1/14/2005 +0000, you wrote:
homeschool email group. I've been struggling with this issue for probably
the past year. I believe in this philosophy, BUT I have issues with the
discipline side. HOW do I teach my child to make his own choices, while AT
THE SAME TIME discouraging undesirable behavior? I'd *like* to let him do
whatever he wants, but what about when he does things that are just not
acceptable, for example hitting or yelling at me? This is our big issue now
and, while it may not exactly equate to TV watching, I still think the idea
is the same. So do I let him hit me and bark orders at me for two years
until the marginal utility of this behavior comes down? No. I guess what I
am asking all of you for advice on is - how do you curb an undesirable
behavior *without* punishment/restriction? (And before anyone brings it
up, there is never *any* hitting in this family, so he is not learning it
from us. I am very loose with discipline and it is suggested by many
friends and family members that *I* am the reason he acts this way -
because I am not strict enough. Typical.)
"Do or do not. There is no try."
-- Yoda
Shannon Entin, entinfamily@...
Low Carb Living, Scrapbooking & Homeschooling at www.ShannonEntin.com
Family updates at www.TheEntins.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>But - when you restrict an activity, you keep the person at the pointPam, first - I loved your post and have forwarded your "lesson" to my
>where the marginal utility is really high.
homeschool email group. I've been struggling with this issue for probably
the past year. I believe in this philosophy, BUT I have issues with the
discipline side. HOW do I teach my child to make his own choices, while AT
THE SAME TIME discouraging undesirable behavior? I'd *like* to let him do
whatever he wants, but what about when he does things that are just not
acceptable, for example hitting or yelling at me? This is our big issue now
and, while it may not exactly equate to TV watching, I still think the idea
is the same. So do I let him hit me and bark orders at me for two years
until the marginal utility of this behavior comes down? No. I guess what I
am asking all of you for advice on is - how do you curb an undesirable
behavior *without* punishment/restriction? (And before anyone brings it
up, there is never *any* hitting in this family, so he is not learning it
from us. I am very loose with discipline and it is suggested by many
friends and family members that *I* am the reason he acts this way -
because I am not strict enough. Typical.)
"Do or do not. There is no try."
-- Yoda
Shannon Entin, entinfamily@...
Low Carb Living, Scrapbooking & Homeschooling at www.ShannonEntin.com
Family updates at www.TheEntins.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
I just didn't put up with any hitting - when the kids were little - 2
or 3 or up - if they lashed out, I'd just wrap my arms around them and
hold them as gently as possibly but firmly and say, "No hitting." If
they persisted, I'd carry them into another room away from the victim
and say, "You can't be around other people if you hit." I didn't deal
with whatever their issue was, to be honest, if they were hitting,
because the hitting itself became the higher priority issue to deal
with. So - my answer is that other things stop - they get separated
from "society" - they don't get to hit me or anybody else because that
is just not going to be tolerated and it is my job to make our home
safe for the rest of our family or guests.
As soon as they're calm, we THEN go back to trying to resolve whatever
the original problem was, of course.
With yelling - things are a little different. Yelling can be a step UP
if they've been being physical and now they're using words - albeit
mean and loud ones.
But - still - screaming in my face is going to get a similar response
as hitting.
-pam
or 3 or up - if they lashed out, I'd just wrap my arms around them and
hold them as gently as possibly but firmly and say, "No hitting." If
they persisted, I'd carry them into another room away from the victim
and say, "You can't be around other people if you hit." I didn't deal
with whatever their issue was, to be honest, if they were hitting,
because the hitting itself became the higher priority issue to deal
with. So - my answer is that other things stop - they get separated
from "society" - they don't get to hit me or anybody else because that
is just not going to be tolerated and it is my job to make our home
safe for the rest of our family or guests.
As soon as they're calm, we THEN go back to trying to resolve whatever
the original problem was, of course.
With yelling - things are a little different. Yelling can be a step UP
if they've been being physical and now they're using words - albeit
mean and loud ones.
But - still - screaming in my face is going to get a similar response
as hitting.
-pam
On Jan 14, 2005, at 4:05 AM, Shannon Entin wrote:
> HOW do I teach my child to make his own choices, while AT
> THE SAME TIME discouraging undesirable behavior? I'd *like* to let
> him do
> whatever he wants, but what about when he does things that are just not
> acceptable, for example hitting or yelling at me? This is our big
> issue now
> and, while it may not exactly equate to TV watching, I still think the
> idea
> is the same. So do I let him hit me and bark orders at me for two years
> until the marginal utility of this behavior comes down?
Robyn Coburn
<<<<HOW do I teach my child to make his own choices, while AT
THE SAME TIME discouraging undesirable behavior? I'd *like* to let him do
whatever he wants, but what about when he does things that are just not
acceptable, for example hitting or yelling at me? >>>>
Shannon I forget how old you mentioned your kid(s) are, however it is
something that we struggle with at times with Jayn (5), especially since she
sometimes seems to get a great kick out of doing something that is
irritating to us. Here's something I wrote fairly recently on another list
that still applies to Jayn.
Long Quote begins:
<<<<<This "what to do about our youngster hitting out and kicking us" is one
of the *big* issues related to the children that are these young ages. I
often find it a real struggle. So this is going to be a bit of an essay.
Just thinking about my answer I have had a couple of revelations about Jayn,
so thanks for asking.
There are two different types of unpleasant hitting behavior - towards other
kids, and towards Mom and Dad. They have different motivations behind them,
and I act differently for each.
The first step in this for me was to make a commitment to not spanking or
punishing. I did this before Jayn was born. She has never had a time out,
although she sometimes takes herself off to the other room if she wants a
moment to calm herself. My commitment reminds me to stop and breathe at
those times when it just seems impossible - and presto it isn't.
About two years ago, when I still allowed Jayn to play at my neighbors'
home, I got a call from their mother. Jayn had apparently kicked Jonah, a
boy her age, while all three children were left alone in the kids' bedroom
to play. His mother was upset because Jayn would not apologize to Jonah, but
had evidently made no effort to get to the cause of the event, or to comfort
Jonah who was *still* crying (more in hurt pride not actual hurt body) by
the time I got down the hall to their apartment.
Jayn was doing a kind of skipping around song to herself, which I recognize
as avoidance/denial behavior. It is not that she is really callous; it is
that she had no tools for how to act in the situation when the other adult
was making a demand that she didn't want to comply with.
Ignoring the woman, who just kept repeating, "She won't apologize, she won't
apologize", in favor of dealing with the more urgent situation, I got down
on the floor close to Jonah and held his hand, gently pulled Jayn to me in
one arm, and asked him if he was hurt, and to tell me what had happened. I
listened for a few minutes while he calmed down and told me that Jayn had
kicked him and how it had hurt, and Jayn in my arm did also. I apologized on
her behalf, and then gave him a hug. All this time, Renee just kept playing
herself. At no time did she contribute anything to the story of what had
actually happened. At the end of this Jayn and Jonah hugged, and she said
something about not kicking in the future.
I then took Jayn off home, and I asked why she had wanted to kick Jonah. She
wasn't ready to tell me until a little later, when she explained that Jonah
had come over and knocked over the girls' little town. We talked about some
alternative courses of action next time someone was doing something that was
bothering her, or interrupting her play: using her words, inviting Jonah to
play, getting a grown up to help. It was clear to me that Jonah was
resenting being left out of the game and having his space invaded, and so
disrupted their game. I suspect he was afraid that if it came out that he
had provoked the kick, he would at best lose all sympathy and at worst be
punished himself.
This kind of physically supporting Jayn's emotions (with my arm around her)
while not condoning her actions and acting to comfort and apologize to the
injured other party has been the model of what I do in any event where Jayn
is unpleasant to another child. Sometimes I remind her that sand is
dangerous if it gets in someone's eyes. I usually have taken her away to
speak to her privately about her actions.
This last action has become more problematic for me recently, as it is
starting to fall under the purview of an idea that I have been thinking and
writing about a lot recently - that our children don't need us to elucidate
their mistakes for them, or try to ensure that they have learnt something
from them (they will anyway).
Jayn has been resenting/rejecting me wanting to point out her bad behavior
to her. She resists listening to me go on about how she shouldn't throw a
toy at someone. She already knows it. On these rare occasions, her judgment
is overcome by a moment of annoyance, or possibly a desire to conduct an
experiment into the usefulness of whacking someone. My solution to this has
become to focus more on comforting the other person, mirroring back their
emotions, and apologizing on her behalf. Jayn can sense my concern, and is
starting to say sorry spontaneously. She is now more likely to talk about
why she did it and what she could do instead at a *much* later time, like
when cuddling on the sofa later in the evening, rather than immediately
after the event.
In terms of Jayn hitting or kicking me or dh, there seem to be several
reasons for it.
The first one is when she is trying to distract me from speaking to her
seriously about something she is doing that really should stop. Sometimes it
means I am being long winded about it. Usually I protect my face by grabbing
her hands and *completely ignore* the hitting. In other words I refuse to be
distracted from my mission to stop her from whatever discourteous behavior
she is engaged in. Recently it was continuing to splash a child in the pool
who didn't wish to play a splashing game. When Jayn realizes her ploy won't
work she usually becomes calm and listens (I try to be brief) and then will
agree to another course of action that either she or I devise.
When Jayn was kicking and hitting (then laughing) dh a lot recently, we
divined that it was because she was missing him while he was at work, and
wanted more of his undivided attention for a while in the evenings. She
didn't have the words or grasp of her emotions to explain her resentment. Dh
and she had a conversation on a walk, after I suggested to him that this
might be the reason for her pushing away behaviors. They came up with a plan
for them to spend time playing their games together, and he agreed to make
her his first priority. It has worked really well. I'm feeling like the hit
and laugh action is more on this theme - wanting attention or the chance to
be close. I continue to suggest other ways to express those desires to Jayn,
like to say, "I need your attention."
The third reason for hitting out is just plain overwhelmed with emotion.
Jayn is very articulate and loquacious, but she still is just a little one.
She sometimes just can't find the words to adequately express that she is
tired, frustrated, irritated or disappointed. Even adults sometimes have
trouble doing that! She has meltdowns, but the good news is that they are
getting fewer. Usually my first goal is self-protection - I push away her
hands from my face, or hold up my arms in front. I tell her forcefully to
take some deep breaths. I sometimes will hold her briefly. I am reluctant to
do so too much after reading Jan Hunt's "The Dangers of Holding Therapy" at
www.naturalchild.org .
If I feel anger I try to breathe and speak about it - which is what I want
to model for her. If I want to hit her, which does still sometimes come up
(which is why I *need* that stated commitment), I often try blowing a
raspberry on her instead. Walking away sometimes is possible, but usually
she will follow. I do repeat, "No hitting/biting people" and sometimes
suggest she thump the chair or bite a pillow instead. This last action
sometimes turns into a game with some giggles.
The big thing is to try and remember that it will pass as she ages, that she
is often mirroring my emotional state, that the good thing behind this is
that she has no fear of us. When she is at her most obnoxious is also her
most vulnerable and needy.>>>>>>
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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THE SAME TIME discouraging undesirable behavior? I'd *like* to let him do
whatever he wants, but what about when he does things that are just not
acceptable, for example hitting or yelling at me? >>>>
Shannon I forget how old you mentioned your kid(s) are, however it is
something that we struggle with at times with Jayn (5), especially since she
sometimes seems to get a great kick out of doing something that is
irritating to us. Here's something I wrote fairly recently on another list
that still applies to Jayn.
Long Quote begins:
<<<<<This "what to do about our youngster hitting out and kicking us" is one
of the *big* issues related to the children that are these young ages. I
often find it a real struggle. So this is going to be a bit of an essay.
Just thinking about my answer I have had a couple of revelations about Jayn,
so thanks for asking.
There are two different types of unpleasant hitting behavior - towards other
kids, and towards Mom and Dad. They have different motivations behind them,
and I act differently for each.
The first step in this for me was to make a commitment to not spanking or
punishing. I did this before Jayn was born. She has never had a time out,
although she sometimes takes herself off to the other room if she wants a
moment to calm herself. My commitment reminds me to stop and breathe at
those times when it just seems impossible - and presto it isn't.
About two years ago, when I still allowed Jayn to play at my neighbors'
home, I got a call from their mother. Jayn had apparently kicked Jonah, a
boy her age, while all three children were left alone in the kids' bedroom
to play. His mother was upset because Jayn would not apologize to Jonah, but
had evidently made no effort to get to the cause of the event, or to comfort
Jonah who was *still* crying (more in hurt pride not actual hurt body) by
the time I got down the hall to their apartment.
Jayn was doing a kind of skipping around song to herself, which I recognize
as avoidance/denial behavior. It is not that she is really callous; it is
that she had no tools for how to act in the situation when the other adult
was making a demand that she didn't want to comply with.
Ignoring the woman, who just kept repeating, "She won't apologize, she won't
apologize", in favor of dealing with the more urgent situation, I got down
on the floor close to Jonah and held his hand, gently pulled Jayn to me in
one arm, and asked him if he was hurt, and to tell me what had happened. I
listened for a few minutes while he calmed down and told me that Jayn had
kicked him and how it had hurt, and Jayn in my arm did also. I apologized on
her behalf, and then gave him a hug. All this time, Renee just kept playing
herself. At no time did she contribute anything to the story of what had
actually happened. At the end of this Jayn and Jonah hugged, and she said
something about not kicking in the future.
I then took Jayn off home, and I asked why she had wanted to kick Jonah. She
wasn't ready to tell me until a little later, when she explained that Jonah
had come over and knocked over the girls' little town. We talked about some
alternative courses of action next time someone was doing something that was
bothering her, or interrupting her play: using her words, inviting Jonah to
play, getting a grown up to help. It was clear to me that Jonah was
resenting being left out of the game and having his space invaded, and so
disrupted their game. I suspect he was afraid that if it came out that he
had provoked the kick, he would at best lose all sympathy and at worst be
punished himself.
This kind of physically supporting Jayn's emotions (with my arm around her)
while not condoning her actions and acting to comfort and apologize to the
injured other party has been the model of what I do in any event where Jayn
is unpleasant to another child. Sometimes I remind her that sand is
dangerous if it gets in someone's eyes. I usually have taken her away to
speak to her privately about her actions.
This last action has become more problematic for me recently, as it is
starting to fall under the purview of an idea that I have been thinking and
writing about a lot recently - that our children don't need us to elucidate
their mistakes for them, or try to ensure that they have learnt something
from them (they will anyway).
Jayn has been resenting/rejecting me wanting to point out her bad behavior
to her. She resists listening to me go on about how she shouldn't throw a
toy at someone. She already knows it. On these rare occasions, her judgment
is overcome by a moment of annoyance, or possibly a desire to conduct an
experiment into the usefulness of whacking someone. My solution to this has
become to focus more on comforting the other person, mirroring back their
emotions, and apologizing on her behalf. Jayn can sense my concern, and is
starting to say sorry spontaneously. She is now more likely to talk about
why she did it and what she could do instead at a *much* later time, like
when cuddling on the sofa later in the evening, rather than immediately
after the event.
In terms of Jayn hitting or kicking me or dh, there seem to be several
reasons for it.
The first one is when she is trying to distract me from speaking to her
seriously about something she is doing that really should stop. Sometimes it
means I am being long winded about it. Usually I protect my face by grabbing
her hands and *completely ignore* the hitting. In other words I refuse to be
distracted from my mission to stop her from whatever discourteous behavior
she is engaged in. Recently it was continuing to splash a child in the pool
who didn't wish to play a splashing game. When Jayn realizes her ploy won't
work she usually becomes calm and listens (I try to be brief) and then will
agree to another course of action that either she or I devise.
When Jayn was kicking and hitting (then laughing) dh a lot recently, we
divined that it was because she was missing him while he was at work, and
wanted more of his undivided attention for a while in the evenings. She
didn't have the words or grasp of her emotions to explain her resentment. Dh
and she had a conversation on a walk, after I suggested to him that this
might be the reason for her pushing away behaviors. They came up with a plan
for them to spend time playing their games together, and he agreed to make
her his first priority. It has worked really well. I'm feeling like the hit
and laugh action is more on this theme - wanting attention or the chance to
be close. I continue to suggest other ways to express those desires to Jayn,
like to say, "I need your attention."
The third reason for hitting out is just plain overwhelmed with emotion.
Jayn is very articulate and loquacious, but she still is just a little one.
She sometimes just can't find the words to adequately express that she is
tired, frustrated, irritated or disappointed. Even adults sometimes have
trouble doing that! She has meltdowns, but the good news is that they are
getting fewer. Usually my first goal is self-protection - I push away her
hands from my face, or hold up my arms in front. I tell her forcefully to
take some deep breaths. I sometimes will hold her briefly. I am reluctant to
do so too much after reading Jan Hunt's "The Dangers of Holding Therapy" at
www.naturalchild.org .
If I feel anger I try to breathe and speak about it - which is what I want
to model for her. If I want to hit her, which does still sometimes come up
(which is why I *need* that stated commitment), I often try blowing a
raspberry on her instead. Walking away sometimes is possible, but usually
she will follow. I do repeat, "No hitting/biting people" and sometimes
suggest she thump the chair or bite a pillow instead. This last action
sometimes turns into a game with some giggles.
The big thing is to try and remember that it will pass as she ages, that she
is often mirroring my emotional state, that the good thing behind this is
that she has no fear of us. When she is at her most obnoxious is also her
most vulnerable and needy.>>>>>>
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.830 / Virus Database: 565 - Release Date: 1/6/2005
[email protected]
Hi all--
Am new to this home/unschooling journey, although I've been
reading/talking/thinking about it all since well before my
now-8-year-old daughter was born.
Started out the year attempting schedules and "assignments" and the
whole she-bang - not Susan Wise Bauer-level torture for my child, but
still a couple hours worth of "required" "work". (Yes, yes, I know.
It was a starting point.) This quickly proved a terrible idea, because
when I did actually manage to implement said imaginary schedules, my
daughter was unhappy, bored and frustrated and so was I. My daughter,
who loves to learn and is always excited about new ideas, was suddenly
asking me suspiciously "Is this for SCHOOL or for FUN?" when I handed
her a new book. Smart kid.
So out the window that goes and here I am, back to the unschooling
ideas that compelled me in the first place before I got some sort of
misguided ideas in my head about what I needed to do. Been reading and
lurking and reading some more for a while now, and am immensely
grateful for this list.
I find myself hitting a wall without externally imposed schedules. I've
never been very good without them, to begin with (thanks a lot, public
schools). My daughter is currently happy to read/watch television/surf
the internet all day, and I'm trying to stay out of her way while she
decompresses a little.
So I guess this was a longwinded and not very clear request for advice
on how you all "developed your own interests." I worry that I will end
up playing nethack for hours on end and ignoring my child, which I
think would not quite be what I'm going for here. :) I'm sure we'll
find ourselves a rhythm here eventually, and we do have outside things
scheduled most days which helps keep me from spending every day in my
pajamas in bed with a book. I assume that once she has more
deschooling time, some of her other interests will re-emerge and we can
explore those.
Are there others here who had difficulty structuring their days when
they got started? I worry that I'm just not nearly as enterprising and
creative as the rest of you, who are always doing far more interesting
and exciting things. heh.
-lisa near Chicago
Am new to this home/unschooling journey, although I've been
reading/talking/thinking about it all since well before my
now-8-year-old daughter was born.
Started out the year attempting schedules and "assignments" and the
whole she-bang - not Susan Wise Bauer-level torture for my child, but
still a couple hours worth of "required" "work". (Yes, yes, I know.
It was a starting point.) This quickly proved a terrible idea, because
when I did actually manage to implement said imaginary schedules, my
daughter was unhappy, bored and frustrated and so was I. My daughter,
who loves to learn and is always excited about new ideas, was suddenly
asking me suspiciously "Is this for SCHOOL or for FUN?" when I handed
her a new book. Smart kid.
So out the window that goes and here I am, back to the unschooling
ideas that compelled me in the first place before I got some sort of
misguided ideas in my head about what I needed to do. Been reading and
lurking and reading some more for a while now, and am immensely
grateful for this list.
I find myself hitting a wall without externally imposed schedules. I've
never been very good without them, to begin with (thanks a lot, public
schools). My daughter is currently happy to read/watch television/surf
the internet all day, and I'm trying to stay out of her way while she
decompresses a little.
So I guess this was a longwinded and not very clear request for advice
on how you all "developed your own interests." I worry that I will end
up playing nethack for hours on end and ignoring my child, which I
think would not quite be what I'm going for here. :) I'm sure we'll
find ourselves a rhythm here eventually, and we do have outside things
scheduled most days which helps keep me from spending every day in my
pajamas in bed with a book. I assume that once she has more
deschooling time, some of her other interests will re-emerge and we can
explore those.
Are there others here who had difficulty structuring their days when
they got started? I worry that I'm just not nearly as enterprising and
creative as the rest of you, who are always doing far more interesting
and exciting things. heh.
-lisa near Chicago
Angela S
You wrote:
My daughter is currently happy to read/watch television/surf
the internet all day, and I'm trying to stay out of her way while she
decompresses a little.
I assume that once she has more
deschooling time, some of her other interests will re-emerge and we can
explore those.
____
It sounds like she already has some interests that you could help her
explore. You could watch the TV programs that she likes to watch and see
what she likes about them. You could surf the internet with her and see
what kind of things she likes to find. I think it's a mistake to try to
stay out of her way. I think it would benefit you both if you explored the
things she already likes together.
---
You wrote:
Are there others here who had difficulty structuring their days when
they got started?
--
The only structure we have to our days is the structure that happens
naturally. I guess you wouldn't call it structure, but more of a rhythm.
We tend to do a lot of things at the same time every day, but not because we
feel we have to, but because that's when it works for us.
Is there anything that you would like to do that you haven't found the time
for over the years. Do you want to knit, do rug braiding, learn about
horses? What floats your boat? Find something that fascinates you and find
a way to learn about it. Also, spend time with your child and help them
research and seek out the things that fascinate him/her.
Angela
game-enthusiast@adelphia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My daughter is currently happy to read/watch television/surf
the internet all day, and I'm trying to stay out of her way while she
decompresses a little.
I assume that once she has more
deschooling time, some of her other interests will re-emerge and we can
explore those.
____
It sounds like she already has some interests that you could help her
explore. You could watch the TV programs that she likes to watch and see
what she likes about them. You could surf the internet with her and see
what kind of things she likes to find. I think it's a mistake to try to
stay out of her way. I think it would benefit you both if you explored the
things she already likes together.
---
You wrote:
Are there others here who had difficulty structuring their days when
they got started?
--
The only structure we have to our days is the structure that happens
naturally. I guess you wouldn't call it structure, but more of a rhythm.
We tend to do a lot of things at the same time every day, but not because we
feel we have to, but because that's when it works for us.
Is there anything that you would like to do that you haven't found the time
for over the years. Do you want to knit, do rug braiding, learn about
horses? What floats your boat? Find something that fascinates you and find
a way to learn about it. Also, spend time with your child and help them
research and seek out the things that fascinate him/her.
Angela
game-enthusiast@adelphia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/14/2005 6:25:09 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
audrey@... writes:
-=-I find myself hitting a wall without externally imposed schedules.=\=
Make a schedule for your own self, then. Maybe plan some outings. Shopping
or lunch. Find fun things to do with your daughter outside the house. Go to
an arcade, a movie, a giftshop, a fabric store. Just slowly look at things
at a crafts store. Buy some nice paper and sparkle glue, or something just
for fun.
Maybe checklists would help, in a scheduly sort of way.
_http://sandradodd.com/checklists_ (http://sandradodd.com/checklists)
_http://sandradodd.com/truck_ (http://sandradodd.com/truck)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
audrey@... writes:
-=-I find myself hitting a wall without externally imposed schedules.=\=
Make a schedule for your own self, then. Maybe plan some outings. Shopping
or lunch. Find fun things to do with your daughter outside the house. Go to
an arcade, a movie, a giftshop, a fabric store. Just slowly look at things
at a crafts store. Buy some nice paper and sparkle glue, or something just
for fun.
Maybe checklists would help, in a scheduly sort of way.
_http://sandradodd.com/checklists_ (http://sandradodd.com/checklists)
_http://sandradodd.com/truck_ (http://sandradodd.com/truck)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], audrey@i... wrote:
routine varies, but I found that I need to have their clothes
available if not actually on their bodies, my clothes on, my
breakfast eaten (I offer bfast to the kids and sometimes they don't
want it right away), plans made/maps consulted if we're going
somewhere (or might go), etc. I pushed myself to do this for a month
or two and now it's easier than not doing it! I feel like I'm ready
for the day and it keeps me from thinking negative thoughts about how
little I might do for the rest of the day. I've gotten the structure
out of the way, I guess.
Some people like to get ready for the next day at night. I tend to go
to sleep as soon as the kids do, but this week they've been asleep
earlier and I've been restless, so I've been organizing and putting
away laundry, setting out clothes, etc. at 11:30 at night. Seems
bizarre and solely due to pg hormones to me, but some people actually
have energy at night on a regular basis!
Oh dear, I need to go talk to ds who is suddenly sad about fireworks
that we missed...on July 4th!
--aj
> Are there others here who had difficulty structuring their dayswhen
> they got started?I find that having a structured morning routine helps me. The kids
routine varies, but I found that I need to have their clothes
available if not actually on their bodies, my clothes on, my
breakfast eaten (I offer bfast to the kids and sometimes they don't
want it right away), plans made/maps consulted if we're going
somewhere (or might go), etc. I pushed myself to do this for a month
or two and now it's easier than not doing it! I feel like I'm ready
for the day and it keeps me from thinking negative thoughts about how
little I might do for the rest of the day. I've gotten the structure
out of the way, I guess.
Some people like to get ready for the next day at night. I tend to go
to sleep as soon as the kids do, but this week they've been asleep
earlier and I've been restless, so I've been organizing and putting
away laundry, setting out clothes, etc. at 11:30 at night. Seems
bizarre and solely due to pg hormones to me, but some people actually
have energy at night on a regular basis!
Oh dear, I need to go talk to ds who is suddenly sad about fireworks
that we missed...on July 4th!
--aj
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/14/2005 8:24:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
audrey@... writes:
So I guess this was a longwinded and not very clear request for advice
on how you all "developed your own interests."
_________
This was tough for me. As we moved into unschooling I realized that my
passion had been "homeschooling" and my life had become consumed with schedules,
curriculums, field trips, support groups etc. I didn't know what I loved any
more.
I started a list with all the things I'd ever been interested in and just
kept adding to it. Then I just started doing some of those things. Some of it
was short-lived...I really hated crocheting! :-) Some of it I love....I'm
running and weight lifting. Next week I start a belly-dancing class. The
woman (Mindy) who is teaching the class gave a workshop at the last Live and
Learn Conference and now has her own troupe and performs locally.
I think just being open to the possibilities and trying something is the
key. It doesn't have to be a long term thing but it can open the door to
discovering something you may become passionate about.
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
audrey@... writes:
So I guess this was a longwinded and not very clear request for advice
on how you all "developed your own interests."
_________
This was tough for me. As we moved into unschooling I realized that my
passion had been "homeschooling" and my life had become consumed with schedules,
curriculums, field trips, support groups etc. I didn't know what I loved any
more.
I started a list with all the things I'd ever been interested in and just
kept adding to it. Then I just started doing some of those things. Some of it
was short-lived...I really hated crocheting! :-) Some of it I love....I'm
running and weight lifting. Next week I start a belly-dancing class. The
woman (Mindy) who is teaching the class gave a workshop at the last Live and
Learn Conference and now has her own troupe and performs locally.
I think just being open to the possibilities and trying something is the
key. It doesn't have to be a long term thing but it can open the door to
discovering something you may become passionate about.
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/15/2005 7:50:13 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
gailbrocop@... writes:
-=-I think just being open to the possibilities and trying something is the
key. It doesn't have to be a long term thing but it can open the door to
discovering something you may become passionate about.-=-
I've developed new interests from looking up things the kids were interested
in. And if it seems too self-indulgent or artificial to just "find a
hobby," maybe do it for the kids' sake. Marty's interested in the 19th century. I
never was. But sometimes if I have a moment and am sitting where google.com
is, I'll look something up for him, check out a ghost town near where we
might be going or some such, and either mention it to him or just file it away
in my own support-of-Marty mental area.
It's okay if we never tell our kids everything we know.
I have a kinda stupid but very useful interest I was thinking about picking
back up just this morning. I used to scrounge firewood, when I had to drive
the kids places and hang out a while. Some years back, each had an interest
that involved the hockey rink or dance school or karate dojo, and while I
waited 20 minutes or an hour or whatever, I would drive in alleys or go to
vacant lots and pick up people's tree trimmings, or abandoned old broken lumber.
It was a combination free firewood and community service, I guess. Too much
good wood goes to the dump, while people are paying money for firewood.
Now we have a wood-fired hot tub in addition to the fireplace, and it's
COLD, and I'm thinking I should just go by myself (since the boys are driving and
they often drive Holly around now) and just look for wood sometimes.
It's also exercise and a good "explore" sometimes.
The hot tub itself has been a good new toy that I've played with a lot,
figuring out how most efficiently to heat it, and how best to drain it and all.
Water play and pyromania combined, with a good soak pretty often! And
there's a tactical/physics element. It's winter and the hose will freeze if we
leave it attached and don't drain it, but if three people use the tub there's
too much displacement to keep 3" over the stove, so if the stove is already
cool that's fine, but if it has a fire in it, more water has to be added. We
have 20 full & closed gallon millk jugs we can chuck in, but that only replaces
a person and a half or so. It's been a fun puzzle. Holly's been in the
most, of the kids, but yesterday Marty (on his 16th birthday) sat out with his
dad and me for half and hour in the late afternoon, and it was a sweet time we
can all look back on in years to come.
The kids and I have shared music back and forth, and humor (movies,
comedians on recordings or video, musical parodies, websites, books). The kids
turned me on to Eddie Izzard, I offered them things I had of Bill Cosby and
George Carlin. For Christmas I got Marty some cassette tapes, cheap, of older
comedy because he has that interest and is driving a car without a CD player.
He's loving some old Eddie Murphy. He knows Eddie Murphy as a famous
protective father, actor in kids' movies, Dr. Doolittle, cartoon voices. This stuff
from when he was young and childless and wild is surprisingly crass, and so
seeing his career backwards is fun for Marty.
Your kids can kind of be your main hobby, but if you can learn to just be a
support figure in their projects and interests and spend some time making
yourself a better "librarian" or resource person you might find some of your own
interests through theirs.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
gailbrocop@... writes:
-=-I think just being open to the possibilities and trying something is the
key. It doesn't have to be a long term thing but it can open the door to
discovering something you may become passionate about.-=-
I've developed new interests from looking up things the kids were interested
in. And if it seems too self-indulgent or artificial to just "find a
hobby," maybe do it for the kids' sake. Marty's interested in the 19th century. I
never was. But sometimes if I have a moment and am sitting where google.com
is, I'll look something up for him, check out a ghost town near where we
might be going or some such, and either mention it to him or just file it away
in my own support-of-Marty mental area.
It's okay if we never tell our kids everything we know.
I have a kinda stupid but very useful interest I was thinking about picking
back up just this morning. I used to scrounge firewood, when I had to drive
the kids places and hang out a while. Some years back, each had an interest
that involved the hockey rink or dance school or karate dojo, and while I
waited 20 minutes or an hour or whatever, I would drive in alleys or go to
vacant lots and pick up people's tree trimmings, or abandoned old broken lumber.
It was a combination free firewood and community service, I guess. Too much
good wood goes to the dump, while people are paying money for firewood.
Now we have a wood-fired hot tub in addition to the fireplace, and it's
COLD, and I'm thinking I should just go by myself (since the boys are driving and
they often drive Holly around now) and just look for wood sometimes.
It's also exercise and a good "explore" sometimes.
The hot tub itself has been a good new toy that I've played with a lot,
figuring out how most efficiently to heat it, and how best to drain it and all.
Water play and pyromania combined, with a good soak pretty often! And
there's a tactical/physics element. It's winter and the hose will freeze if we
leave it attached and don't drain it, but if three people use the tub there's
too much displacement to keep 3" over the stove, so if the stove is already
cool that's fine, but if it has a fire in it, more water has to be added. We
have 20 full & closed gallon millk jugs we can chuck in, but that only replaces
a person and a half or so. It's been a fun puzzle. Holly's been in the
most, of the kids, but yesterday Marty (on his 16th birthday) sat out with his
dad and me for half and hour in the late afternoon, and it was a sweet time we
can all look back on in years to come.
The kids and I have shared music back and forth, and humor (movies,
comedians on recordings or video, musical parodies, websites, books). The kids
turned me on to Eddie Izzard, I offered them things I had of Bill Cosby and
George Carlin. For Christmas I got Marty some cassette tapes, cheap, of older
comedy because he has that interest and is driving a car without a CD player.
He's loving some old Eddie Murphy. He knows Eddie Murphy as a famous
protective father, actor in kids' movies, Dr. Doolittle, cartoon voices. This stuff
from when he was young and childless and wild is surprisingly crass, and so
seeing his career backwards is fun for Marty.
Your kids can kind of be your main hobby, but if you can learn to just be a
support figure in their projects and interests and spend some time making
yourself a better "librarian" or resource person you might find some of your own
interests through theirs.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shannon Entin
At 08:50 AM 1/15/2005 +0000, you wrote:
"schedules" but somehow my life has come to the point where routine and
schedules do not exist. My husband works from home and we just get up every
day and never know quite what to expect. I laughed at your comment "we do
have outside things scheduled most days which helps keep me from spending
every day in my pajamas in bed with a book." Ditto for me! We have lots of
"pajama days" in my house!!
I tried for 2 years or more to implement a "family schedule" with specific
times for getting up, working, going to the gym, eating. Ugh. What a waste.
While I might do well on this type of plan, it DOES NOT work for my family.
I also attempted to "plan" my son's schooling at first. Ha. For the past
year (he's 6 now) I've been letting him do what he wants, while planning
outings and field trips with our local homeschool group, providing ample
books and workbooks strewn about the family room, and playing computer
games. He has pretty much taught himself to read and has developed
interests in chess, medieval times, and has become a Star Wars maven. He is
well advanced beyond many of his friends that go to public school. (I try
not to compare his progress, but the system has ingrained that in me and
I'm trying to fight it.)
Don't try to structure and don't worry about being creative. Just let it
happen and it will.
"Do or do not. There is no try."
-- Yoda
Shannon Entin, entinfamily@...
Low Carb Living, Scrapbooking & Homeschooling at www.ShannonEntin.com
Family updates at www.TheEntins.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Are there others here who had difficulty structuring their days whenHi Lisa. You sound just like me. I, too, have difficulty without
>they got started? I worry that I'm just not nearly as enterprising and
>creative as the rest of you, who are always doing far more interesting
>and exciting things.
"schedules" but somehow my life has come to the point where routine and
schedules do not exist. My husband works from home and we just get up every
day and never know quite what to expect. I laughed at your comment "we do
have outside things scheduled most days which helps keep me from spending
every day in my pajamas in bed with a book." Ditto for me! We have lots of
"pajama days" in my house!!
I tried for 2 years or more to implement a "family schedule" with specific
times for getting up, working, going to the gym, eating. Ugh. What a waste.
While I might do well on this type of plan, it DOES NOT work for my family.
I also attempted to "plan" my son's schooling at first. Ha. For the past
year (he's 6 now) I've been letting him do what he wants, while planning
outings and field trips with our local homeschool group, providing ample
books and workbooks strewn about the family room, and playing computer
games. He has pretty much taught himself to read and has developed
interests in chess, medieval times, and has become a Star Wars maven. He is
well advanced beyond many of his friends that go to public school. (I try
not to compare his progress, but the system has ingrained that in me and
I'm trying to fight it.)
Don't try to structure and don't worry about being creative. Just let it
happen and it will.
"Do or do not. There is no try."
-- Yoda
Shannon Entin, entinfamily@...
Low Carb Living, Scrapbooking & Homeschooling at www.ShannonEntin.com
Family updates at www.TheEntins.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/15/2005 10:46:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Your kids can kind of be your main hobby, but if you can learn to just be a
support figure in their projects and interests and spend some time making
yourself a better "librarian" or resource person you might find some of your
own
interests through theirs
==========
It's been a bit weird that as Brenna has explored interests, she has become
involved in many of the same interests I had in my college
days....photography, eastern philosophy, psychology. It's been fun because I have been able
to share some of what I know but I've also learned much more that I didn't
know as she has gotten deeper into these areas.
For Christmas, she asked for Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance ...a
book I had loved 25 years ago. Someone from NBTSC had recommended it to her.
She often recommends books to me that she thinks I will like. She's been
listening to a lot of Elton John lately and playing some of his older songs on
the piano. Cool for me!!
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
Your kids can kind of be your main hobby, but if you can learn to just be a
support figure in their projects and interests and spend some time making
yourself a better "librarian" or resource person you might find some of your
own
interests through theirs
==========
It's been a bit weird that as Brenna has explored interests, she has become
involved in many of the same interests I had in my college
days....photography, eastern philosophy, psychology. It's been fun because I have been able
to share some of what I know but I've also learned much more that I didn't
know as she has gotten deeper into these areas.
For Christmas, she asked for Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance ...a
book I had loved 25 years ago. Someone from NBTSC had recommended it to her.
She often recommends books to me that she thinks I will like. She's been
listening to a lot of Elton John lately and playing some of his older songs on
the piano. Cool for me!!
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/15/2005 11:25:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
gailbrocop@... writes:
It's been a bit weird that as Brenna has explored interests, she has
become
involved in many of the same interests I had in my college
days....photography, eastern philosophy, psychology. It's been fun because
I have been able
to share some of what I know but I've also learned much more that I didn't
know as she has gotten deeper into these areas. <<<
I have a weird parallel too.
Cameron has, through the years, had interests that were close to my heart
too. Oddly, I've had boyfriends with the same interests---AND good
relationships with them---the ex-boyfriends, I mean!
When he started showing a strong interest in art/drawing, I called William,
and he and William worked together a bit.
When he showed an interest in magic (after I showed him a pack vanish that I
learned from Jeff), I called Jeff and asked for more info. We also stopped in
and had lunch with Jeff & his family when we were in DC. Jeff showed Cameron
a few things, and Cameron wowed Jeff with his new talent.
Then he found film-making. I knew John was a camera-operator because I saw
his name in the credits of some movie. We called him and chatted about schools
and cameras and such. We're going to drive up to Wilmington, NC to spend a
few days with him and use some really fancy cameras.
Those connections *I* made in my late teens and twenties have made a huge
difference in my son's life. It's pretty cool.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
gailbrocop@... writes:
It's been a bit weird that as Brenna has explored interests, she has
become
involved in many of the same interests I had in my college
days....photography, eastern philosophy, psychology. It's been fun because
I have been able
to share some of what I know but I've also learned much more that I didn't
know as she has gotten deeper into these areas. <<<
I have a weird parallel too.
Cameron has, through the years, had interests that were close to my heart
too. Oddly, I've had boyfriends with the same interests---AND good
relationships with them---the ex-boyfriends, I mean!
When he started showing a strong interest in art/drawing, I called William,
and he and William worked together a bit.
When he showed an interest in magic (after I showed him a pack vanish that I
learned from Jeff), I called Jeff and asked for more info. We also stopped in
and had lunch with Jeff & his family when we were in DC. Jeff showed Cameron
a few things, and Cameron wowed Jeff with his new talent.
Then he found film-making. I knew John was a camera-operator because I saw
his name in the credits of some movie. We called him and chatted about schools
and cameras and such. We're going to drive up to Wilmington, NC to spend a
few days with him and use some really fancy cameras.
Those connections *I* made in my late teens and twenties have made a huge
difference in my son's life. It's pretty cool.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diana
>>Next week I start a belly-dancing class. The woman (Mindy) who isteaching the class gave a workshop at the last Live and Learn
Conference and now has her own troupe and performs locally.
>SO JEALOUS!! Mindy has started a Belly Dancing revolution - all across
> Gail
the country! I'm doing belly dancing with the high school girls from
church, 3rd Thursday at our local Mediteranian eatery :) Hey, that's
this week - wooo hooo!
Just goes to prove you never know what you'll come home with from the
Live and Learn conference :)
~diana <bg>
Danielle Conger
==
Just goes to prove you never know what you'll come home with from the
Live and Learn conference :)
~diana <bg>
===
I had so much fun in Mindy's funshop. I just posted about this, too! The
girls and I got a bellydancing kit for Christmas, put out by Fat Chance
Bellydance and Barnes & Noble. It's challenging, but fun!
Kelly's funshop on service dogs planted a seed that may someday reach
fruition.
And the beautiful socks that Jill knit inspired me to learn to knit.
That was one of my New Year's resolutions, and I got two of my
Unschooling friends to show me at our last Unschooling Support meeting.
I'm now in the midst of two scarves for the kids. Still a long way off
on those gorgeous socks, but I'm hopeful. Plus, I figure someone at the
next Live and Learn will be kind enough to help me along!
The conference was life changing for *me*!
--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
Just goes to prove you never know what you'll come home with from the
Live and Learn conference :)
~diana <bg>
===
I had so much fun in Mindy's funshop. I just posted about this, too! The
girls and I got a bellydancing kit for Christmas, put out by Fat Chance
Bellydance and Barnes & Noble. It's challenging, but fun!
Kelly's funshop on service dogs planted a seed that may someday reach
fruition.
And the beautiful socks that Jill knit inspired me to learn to knit.
That was one of my New Year's resolutions, and I got two of my
Unschooling friends to show me at our last Unschooling Support meeting.
I'm now in the midst of two scarves for the kids. Still a long way off
on those gorgeous socks, but I'm hopeful. Plus, I figure someone at the
next Live and Learn will be kind enough to help me along!
The conference was life changing for *me*!
--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/17/2005 11:26:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
danielle.conger@... writes:
The
girls and I got a bellydancing kit for Christmas, put out by Fat Chance
Bellydance and Barnes & Noble. It's challenging, but fun!
______
I'm thinking we should just all get up at the talent show and do some
bellydancing.
That could be quite a show! :-)
We actually did go and watch Mindy recently at a performance with some of
her troupe...just amazing. She is so professional and doing really well with
her dance classes. She is such a inspiration and a good example of someone
who has followed her passions.
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
danielle.conger@... writes:
The
girls and I got a bellydancing kit for Christmas, put out by Fat Chance
Bellydance and Barnes & Noble. It's challenging, but fun!
______
I'm thinking we should just all get up at the talent show and do some
bellydancing.
That could be quite a show! :-)
We actually did go and watch Mindy recently at a performance with some of
her troupe...just amazing. She is so professional and doing really well with
her dance classes. She is such a inspiration and a good example of someone
who has followed her passions.
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/17/2005 10:50:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
hahamommy@... writes:
Just goes to prove you never know what you'll come home with from the
Live and Learn conference :)
Talk it up! Talk it up!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hahamommy@... writes:
Just goes to prove you never know what you'll come home with from the
Live and Learn conference :)
Talk it up! Talk it up!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jenneferh2000
Oh, yeah! A Belly Dancing thread on this list? FUN!
I've been belly dancing for about 5 years now, taking classes off and
on between having babies....
I gave a Belly Dance Basics parent/child class for our local
homeschooling association. It was great fun, although it did seem
like the moms were more into it than the young girls! ;-)
Fat Chance Belly Dance is a great tribal troupe to watch/study! I
LOVE this troupe which is based in San Fran., CA.
If a touring group called Belly Dance SuperStars come to your town-
do not miss them! They're HOT! I just caught them for the second
year yesterday. Oh, and bring spending money as they have stuff to
sell during intermission. They are also coming out with a movie in
February about the forming of the touring act and also the
controversies surrounding belly dance between the sexes and since
September 11th.
Shimmie On!
Jennefer in Oregon
--- In [email protected], "diana"
<hahamommy@s...> wrote:
I've been belly dancing for about 5 years now, taking classes off and
on between having babies....
I gave a Belly Dance Basics parent/child class for our local
homeschooling association. It was great fun, although it did seem
like the moms were more into it than the young girls! ;-)
Fat Chance Belly Dance is a great tribal troupe to watch/study! I
LOVE this troupe which is based in San Fran., CA.
If a touring group called Belly Dance SuperStars come to your town-
do not miss them! They're HOT! I just caught them for the second
year yesterday. Oh, and bring spending money as they have stuff to
sell during intermission. They are also coming out with a movie in
February about the forming of the touring act and also the
controversies surrounding belly dance between the sexes and since
September 11th.
Shimmie On!
Jennefer in Oregon
--- In [email protected], "diana"
<hahamommy@s...> wrote:
>is
> >>Next week I start a belly-dancing class. The woman (Mindy) who
> teaching the class gave a workshop at the last Live and Learnacross
> Conference and now has her own troupe and performs locally.
> >
> > Gail
>
>
> SO JEALOUS!! Mindy has started a Belly Dancing revolution - all
> the country! I'm doing belly dancing with the high school girls fromthat's
> church, 3rd Thursday at our local Mediteranian eatery :) Hey,
> this week - wooo hooo!the
>
> Just goes to prove you never know what you'll come home with from
> Live and Learn conference :)
> ~diana <bg>
[email protected]
If any of you have any free-floating energy and want to defend belly dancing,
it has been attacked as being inappropriate to have been performed at the Not
Back To School Camp.
http://www.unschooling.com/discus/messages/3583/11005.html
It's interesting, like a train wreck.
The belly dancing objection kind floored me, though, as my kids have seen
lots of bellydance in and around the SCA, and some outside of there as another
homeschooling mom did parties and once took Kirby and Holly as her sound guy and
her lovely costumed assistant. She had made Holly a very cool little
cabaret-style costume when she was seven or so.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
it has been attacked as being inappropriate to have been performed at the Not
Back To School Camp.
http://www.unschooling.com/discus/messages/3583/11005.html
It's interesting, like a train wreck.
The belly dancing objection kind floored me, though, as my kids have seen
lots of bellydance in and around the SCA, and some outside of there as another
homeschooling mom did parties and once took Kirby and Holly as her sound guy and
her lovely costumed assistant. She had made Holly a very cool little
cabaret-style costume when she was seven or so.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]