Re: Unschooling philosophy question.
Julie Bogart
One of the mantras I repeat at home is:
Coercion breeds subversion.
Kids who are repeatedly told what to do and when at the expense of their own internal
logic either become complacent rule followers to appease their imposing superiors or they
become adept "beat the system" subverts and rule breakers.
I'm repeatedly amazed at how willing teens are to lie, cheat, avoid, and ignore the rules
handed down to them. I am not exaggerating. Even kids whose reputations are "pure gold"
in terms of grades and popularity all know how to beat "the system" (home or school)
when they need to.
Each time we use our power or authority to compell someone against that person's will, we
are damaging the relationship. There may be times when we intervene or compell based
on physical danger (toddler runs into the street and we chase her down and literally
remove her from oncoming traffic), but in nine times out of ten cases, our need to compell
our kids to "do" something is motivated by our own needs (to think we are schooling
them, teaching the hygiene, are responsible parents - not losers like we fear others will
think we are, fear that our kids are not normal or will fail).
My advice: find something to learn and od for yourswelf. Get busy and happy and have
things to do that make your life so exciting to live that you stop worrying about your
daughter's life. Your enthusaism for learning will be contagious if you are learning and not
teaching or compelling.
Julie B
P.S. And about those pesky times tables... I didn't finish learning mine until this year when
someone on this list wrote: 5, 6, 7, 8 and said it was a trick for learning 7x8. My life
changed, I tell you! I have never had certainty about 7x8 and have always used calculators
to compensate for multiplication.
Yet I just celebrated my five year anniversary as a business owner and have served over
1000 families. Not hurting me so far. <g>
Coercion breeds subversion.
Kids who are repeatedly told what to do and when at the expense of their own internal
logic either become complacent rule followers to appease their imposing superiors or they
become adept "beat the system" subverts and rule breakers.
I'm repeatedly amazed at how willing teens are to lie, cheat, avoid, and ignore the rules
handed down to them. I am not exaggerating. Even kids whose reputations are "pure gold"
in terms of grades and popularity all know how to beat "the system" (home or school)
when they need to.
Each time we use our power or authority to compell someone against that person's will, we
are damaging the relationship. There may be times when we intervene or compell based
on physical danger (toddler runs into the street and we chase her down and literally
remove her from oncoming traffic), but in nine times out of ten cases, our need to compell
our kids to "do" something is motivated by our own needs (to think we are schooling
them, teaching the hygiene, are responsible parents - not losers like we fear others will
think we are, fear that our kids are not normal or will fail).
My advice: find something to learn and od for yourswelf. Get busy and happy and have
things to do that make your life so exciting to live that you stop worrying about your
daughter's life. Your enthusaism for learning will be contagious if you are learning and not
teaching or compelling.
Julie B
P.S. And about those pesky times tables... I didn't finish learning mine until this year when
someone on this list wrote: 5, 6, 7, 8 and said it was a trick for learning 7x8. My life
changed, I tell you! I have never had certainty about 7x8 and have always used calculators
to compensate for multiplication.
Yet I just celebrated my five year anniversary as a business owner and have served over
1000 families. Not hurting me so far. <g>
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/11/2005 12:35:07 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
julie@... writes:
I'm repeatedly amazed at how willing teens are to lie, cheat, avoid, and
ignore the rules
handed down to them. I am not exaggerating. Even kids whose reputations are
"pure gold"
=======
I don't see it much in the unschooled teens I know.
One admitted in a blog to having made cheat notes for a college math test.
Others? Pretty straightforward as far as I've seen.
Kirby has lot of friends who are honest but I don't see them in school or
family-of-origin surroundings, just at my house or public places.
Some of their in-school teen friends, though, are neaky liars, but the
sneaking seems to have to do with school and parents. Then again, for a lot of
teens all they have in their lives are school and parents, and the desire to
get away from one or both of those.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
julie@... writes:
I'm repeatedly amazed at how willing teens are to lie, cheat, avoid, and
ignore the rules
handed down to them. I am not exaggerating. Even kids whose reputations are
"pure gold"
=======
I don't see it much in the unschooled teens I know.
One admitted in a blog to having made cheat notes for a college math test.
Others? Pretty straightforward as far as I've seen.
Kirby has lot of friends who are honest but I don't see them in school or
family-of-origin surroundings, just at my house or public places.
Some of their in-school teen friends, though, are neaky liars, but the
sneaking seems to have to do with school and parents. Then again, for a lot of
teens all they have in their lives are school and parents, and the desire to
get away from one or both of those.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
school or parents). That was my point really - that kids who live in those coercive contexts
are the ones I know who are more likely to "bend the rules" and really think little of it than
kids who are making choices for themselves.
My son recently sent me to his blog to read a recent entry entitled: Mom this is not your
fault.
In it he shared at length a choice he made that he regretted. As I read, I kept thinking,
"What teen in his right mind would want to share this with his mother?" But that was what
struck me. He wanted me to know. He wanted me to know because he has not had any
reason to hide things from me (or from my husband).
His choices are his and I am one of his support systems.
One of my daughter's friend's life is a long plot to disobey her parents' abusive rules. And
while I actually appalud her chutzpah for not letting their sickness ruin her life, I do worry
for her because she has to lead such a double life in order not to be completely dominated
by them that I wonder how much damage to her own consciense she is doing.
That's an extreme example, but I see so many little deceptions in the public schooled kids
my kids know that it breaks my heart.
I don't know any unschooled kids in person.
Julie B
>I should have clarified that I meant kids who were in "systems of coercion" (whether it be
> In a message dated 1/11/2005 12:35:07 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
> julie@b... writes:
>
> I'm repeatedly amazed at how willing teens are to lie, cheat, avoid, and
> ignore the rules
> handed down to them. I am not exaggerating. Even kids whose reputations are
> "pure gold"
>
>
>
> =======
>
> I don't see it much in the unschooled teens I know.
> One admitted in a blog to having made cheat notes for a college math test.
> Others? Pretty straightforward as far as I've seen.
school or parents). That was my point really - that kids who live in those coercive contexts
are the ones I know who are more likely to "bend the rules" and really think little of it than
kids who are making choices for themselves.
My son recently sent me to his blog to read a recent entry entitled: Mom this is not your
fault.
In it he shared at length a choice he made that he regretted. As I read, I kept thinking,
"What teen in his right mind would want to share this with his mother?" But that was what
struck me. He wanted me to know. He wanted me to know because he has not had any
reason to hide things from me (or from my husband).
His choices are his and I am one of his support systems.
>That's my point there.
> Some of their in-school teen friends, though, are sneaky liars, but the
> sneaking seems to have to do with school and parents. Then again, for a lot of
> teens all they have in their lives are school and parents, and the desire to
> get away from one or both of those.
One of my daughter's friend's life is a long plot to disobey her parents' abusive rules. And
while I actually appalud her chutzpah for not letting their sickness ruin her life, I do worry
for her because she has to lead such a double life in order not to be completely dominated
by them that I wonder how much damage to her own consciense she is doing.
That's an extreme example, but I see so many little deceptions in the public schooled kids
my kids know that it breaks my heart.
I don't know any unschooled kids in person.
Julie B
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart" <julie@b...> wrote:
Geesh. This is what I get for being on the computer working all day today. Tired eyes.
Those typos and grammatical mistakes stand corrected below:
One of my daughter's friend's life is a long plot to disobey her parents' abusive rules. I
applaud her chutzpah for not letting her parents' sickness ruin her life. However, I do
worry for her anyway. I wonder what kind of damage to this girl's conscience results when
she chooses to lead a double life, and does so because her parents (who should love and
support her) are actually dangerous.
> That's an extreme example, but I see so many little deceptions in the public schooled
kids
> my kids know, that it breaks my heart.
>
> I don't know any unschooled kids in person (except my own).
>
> Julie B
Elizabeth Hill
** One of my daughter's friend's life is a long plot to disobey her
parents' abusive rules. And
while I actually appalud her chutzpah for not letting their sickness
ruin her life...**
I'd be tempted to tell her "I know your parents have been wrong about
many, many things, but bear in mind that it is possible for them to be
right sometimes, perhaps accidentally." <g>
Betsy
parents' abusive rules. And
while I actually appalud her chutzpah for not letting their sickness
ruin her life...**
I'd be tempted to tell her "I know your parents have been wrong about
many, many things, but bear in mind that it is possible for them to be
right sometimes, perhaps accidentally." <g>
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/11/2005 9:02:27 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
I'd be tempted to tell her "I know your parents have been wrong about
many, many things, but bear in mind that it is possible for them to be
right sometimes, perhaps accidentally." <g>
=========
But she shouldn't be looking to her parents about what is right, wrong,
right or good. They've broken the bond of trust.
If she finds other adult role models who might sometimes agree with her
parents and sometimes not, she'll be working from more than one source and not
just being resistent and reactive.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ecsamhill@... writes:
I'd be tempted to tell her "I know your parents have been wrong about
many, many things, but bear in mind that it is possible for them to be
right sometimes, perhaps accidentally." <g>
=========
But she shouldn't be looking to her parents about what is right, wrong,
right or good. They've broken the bond of trust.
If she finds other adult role models who might sometimes agree with her
parents and sometimes not, she'll be working from more than one source and not
just being resistent and reactive.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Andy Holly Clarke
"Kids who are repeatedly told what to do and when at the expense of their
own internal
logic either become complacent rule followers to appease their imposing
superiors.... "
this sounds like me. unfortunately i took being the good child, the
compacent child too far, or it took me too far. i almost always did what my
parents or teachers or any authority figure or adults told me to do. i have
trouble with it to this day. for example... if my dh tells me to do
anything (almost anything) i have to do it, even if i don't want to. he'll
tell me to go make dinner, and i'm off to make dinner. usually if i don't
want to, i am grumbling about how i don't want to make dinner, or about him
making me make dinner. but i am still making dinner.
i am starting to get better about saying "no" and following through on the
no, but it has been very difficult for me.
i think complacency puts children in a real dangerous situation. dh get
frustrated when the kids don't always do what he tells them, but i am
relieved by it (annoyed sometimes, but relieved). i feel it helps them to
stick up for themselves. if someone were to try and take them, or touch
them, they need to be able to say "no" and say it loudly and fight for it.
kwim.
holly
PS
I am glad for this topic, i plan on showing dh some of the posts in the
hopes that he will start to understand my point of view.
"P.S. And about those pesky times tables... I didn't finish learning mine
until this year when
someone on this list wrote: 5, 6, 7, 8 and said it was a trick for learning
7x8."
I missed this trick, can you show me!?
own internal
logic either become complacent rule followers to appease their imposing
superiors.... "
this sounds like me. unfortunately i took being the good child, the
compacent child too far, or it took me too far. i almost always did what my
parents or teachers or any authority figure or adults told me to do. i have
trouble with it to this day. for example... if my dh tells me to do
anything (almost anything) i have to do it, even if i don't want to. he'll
tell me to go make dinner, and i'm off to make dinner. usually if i don't
want to, i am grumbling about how i don't want to make dinner, or about him
making me make dinner. but i am still making dinner.
i am starting to get better about saying "no" and following through on the
no, but it has been very difficult for me.
i think complacency puts children in a real dangerous situation. dh get
frustrated when the kids don't always do what he tells them, but i am
relieved by it (annoyed sometimes, but relieved). i feel it helps them to
stick up for themselves. if someone were to try and take them, or touch
them, they need to be able to say "no" and say it loudly and fight for it.
kwim.
holly
PS
I am glad for this topic, i plan on showing dh some of the posts in the
hopes that he will start to understand my point of view.
"P.S. And about those pesky times tables... I didn't finish learning mine
until this year when
someone on this list wrote: 5, 6, 7, 8 and said it was a trick for learning
7x8."
I missed this trick, can you show me!?
nellebelle
>>>for example... if my dh tells me to doanything (almost anything) i have to do it, even if i don't want to.
<<<<Ella Enchanted? (The book, not the movie. The movie is too far different to be the same story.)
In case you haven't read it, a fairy puts a spell on Ella at birth. She must follow any direct command, and gets very creative at doing it in a way that is not what the commander had in mind.
It's another spin on the Cinderella story.
Mary Ellen
----- Original Message ----- i almost always did what my
parents or teachers or any authority figure or adults told me to do. i have
trouble with it to this day. for example... if my dh tells me to do
anything (almost anything) i have to do it, even if i don't want to. he'll
tell me to go make dinner, and i'm off to make dinner. usually if i don't
want to, i am grumbling about how i don't want to make dinner, or about him
making me make dinner. but i am still making dinner.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
Good Lord, that is me! I'm 43, and it has bothered me for years. When I was a child, I was subject to things no child should be, because I had this robotic automatic mode in me. If an adult said to do it, I was complying - immediately. I always thought it had something to do with being the middle child (the pleaser, the peacemaker). Hmmm, I'm gonna have to think on this.
My kids are bold! When I hear them speak up for themselves with others, I always flinch - waiting for them to get "in trouble".
I love lurking here. Take care, MaryW
Andy Holly Clarke <ahclarke@...> wrote:
"Kids who are repeatedly told what to do and when at the expense of their
own internal
logic either become complacent rule followers to appease their imposing
superiors.... "
this sounds like me. unfortunately i took being the good child, the
compacent child too far, or it took me too far. i almost always did what my
parents or teachers or any authority figure or adults told me to do. i have
trouble with it to this day. for example... if my dh tells me to do
anything (almost anything) i have to do it, even if i don't want to. he'll
tell me to go make dinner, and i'm off to make dinner. usually if i don't
want to, i am grumbling about how i don't want to make dinner, or about him
making me make dinner. but i am still making dinner.
i am starting to get better about saying "no" and following through on the
no, but it has been very difficult for me.
i think complacency puts children in a real dangerous situation. dh get
frustrated when the kids don't always do what he tells them, but i am
relieved by it (annoyed sometimes, but relieved). i feel it helps them to
stick up for themselves. if someone were to try and take them, or touch
them, they need to be able to say "no" and say it loudly and fight for it.
kwim.
holly
PS
I am glad for this topic, i plan on showing dh some of the posts in the
hopes that he will start to understand my point of view.
"P.S. And about those pesky times tables... I didn't finish learning mine
until this year when
someone on this list wrote: 5, 6, 7, 8 and said it was a trick for learning
7x8."
I missed this trick, can you show me!?
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Take care, Mary (http://www.geocities.com/maryw80)
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My kids are bold! When I hear them speak up for themselves with others, I always flinch - waiting for them to get "in trouble".
I love lurking here. Take care, MaryW
Andy Holly Clarke <ahclarke@...> wrote:
"Kids who are repeatedly told what to do and when at the expense of their
own internal
logic either become complacent rule followers to appease their imposing
superiors.... "
this sounds like me. unfortunately i took being the good child, the
compacent child too far, or it took me too far. i almost always did what my
parents or teachers or any authority figure or adults told me to do. i have
trouble with it to this day. for example... if my dh tells me to do
anything (almost anything) i have to do it, even if i don't want to. he'll
tell me to go make dinner, and i'm off to make dinner. usually if i don't
want to, i am grumbling about how i don't want to make dinner, or about him
making me make dinner. but i am still making dinner.
i am starting to get better about saying "no" and following through on the
no, but it has been very difficult for me.
i think complacency puts children in a real dangerous situation. dh get
frustrated when the kids don't always do what he tells them, but i am
relieved by it (annoyed sometimes, but relieved). i feel it helps them to
stick up for themselves. if someone were to try and take them, or touch
them, they need to be able to say "no" and say it loudly and fight for it.
kwim.
holly
PS
I am glad for this topic, i plan on showing dh some of the posts in the
hopes that he will start to understand my point of view.
"P.S. And about those pesky times tables... I didn't finish learning mine
until this year when
someone on this list wrote: 5, 6, 7, 8 and said it was a trick for learning
7x8."
I missed this trick, can you show me!?
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Take care, Mary (http://www.geocities.com/maryw80)
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Andy Holly Clarke
i agree the book was way better than the movie. when i read it (and when i
saw the movie) i mentioned to dh that she sounded a lot like me. LOL
holly
saw the movie) i mentioned to dh that she sounded a lot like me. LOL
holly
----- Original Message -----
From: "nellebelle" <nellebelle@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Unschooling philosophy question.
>
> >>>for example... if my dh tells me to do
> anything (almost anything) i have to do it, even if i don't want to.
>
> <<<<Ella Enchanted? (The book, not the movie. The movie is too far
different to be the same story.)
>
> In case you haven't read it, a fairy puts a spell on Ella at birth. She
must follow any direct command, and gets very creative at doing it in a way
that is not what the commander had in mind.
>
> It's another spin on the Cinderella story.
>
> Mary Ellen
> ----- Original Message ----- i almost always did what my
> parents or teachers or any authority figure or adults told me to do. i
have
> trouble with it to this day. for example... if my dh tells me to do
> anything (almost anything) i have to do it, even if i don't want to.
he'll
> tell me to go make dinner, and i'm off to make dinner. usually if i
don't
> want to, i am grumbling about how i don't want to make dinner, or about
him
> making me make dinner. but i am still making dinner.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Andy Holly Clarke
" I always thought it had something to do with being the middle child (the
pleaser, the peacemaker)."
Then what is my excuse? I am the youngest (the baby - 32yo and still
referred to this way by my mom). I have always been the pleaser/peacemaker.
I have been making progress stopping this, but it is slow.
holly
pleaser, the peacemaker)."
Then what is my excuse? I am the youngest (the baby - 32yo and still
referred to this way by my mom). I have always been the pleaser/peacemaker.
I have been making progress stopping this, but it is slow.
holly
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary" <maryw80@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Unschooling philosophy question.
>
> Good Lord, that is me! I'm 43, and it has bothered me for years. When I
was a child, I was subject to things no child should be, because I had this
robotic automatic mode in me. If an adult said to do it, I was complying -
immediately. I always thought it had something to do with being the middle
child (the pleaser, the peacemaker). Hmmm, I'm gonna have to think on this.
>
> My kids are bold! When I hear them speak up for themselves with others, I
always flinch - waiting for them to get "in trouble".
>
> I love lurking here. Take care, MaryW
>
> Andy Holly Clarke <ahclarke@...> wrote:
> "Kids who are repeatedly told what to do and when at the expense of their
> own internal
> logic either become complacent rule followers to appease their imposing
> superiors.... "
>
> this sounds like me. unfortunately i took being the good child, the
> compacent child too far, or it took me too far. i almost always did what
my
> parents or teachers or any authority figure or adults told me to do. i
have
> trouble with it to this day. for example... if my dh tells me to do
> anything (almost anything) i have to do it, even if i don't want to.
he'll
> tell me to go make dinner, and i'm off to make dinner. usually if i don't
> want to, i am grumbling about how i don't want to make dinner, or about
him
> making me make dinner. but i am still making dinner.
>
> i am starting to get better about saying "no" and following through on the
> no, but it has been very difficult for me.
>
> i think complacency puts children in a real dangerous situation. dh get
> frustrated when the kids don't always do what he tells them, but i am
> relieved by it (annoyed sometimes, but relieved). i feel it helps them to
> stick up for themselves. if someone were to try and take them, or touch
> them, they need to be able to say "no" and say it loudly and fight for it.
>
> kwim.
> holly
>
> PS
> I am glad for this topic, i plan on showing dh some of the posts in the
> hopes that he will start to understand my point of view.
>
> "P.S. And about those pesky times tables... I didn't finish learning mine
> until this year when
> someone on this list wrote: 5, 6, 7, 8 and said it was a trick for
learning
> 7x8."
>
> I missed this trick, can you show me!?
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>
> Take care, Mary (http://www.geocities.com/maryw80)
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/12/2005 11:56:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
nellebelle@... writes:
In case you haven't read it, a fairy puts a spell on Ella at birth. She
must follow any direct command, and gets very creative at doing it in a way that
is not what the commander had in mind.
It's another spin on the Cinderella story.<<<<
Cinderella or Sleeping Beauty?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle@... writes:
In case you haven't read it, a fairy puts a spell on Ella at birth. She
must follow any direct command, and gets very creative at doing it in a way that
is not what the commander had in mind.
It's another spin on the Cinderella story.<<<<
Cinderella or Sleeping Beauty?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Hill <ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
from her home at this time. I would say they aren't right just about ever.
Julie B
> ** One of my daughter's friend's life is a long plot to disobey herthese are abusers. I've contacted CPS but the system is overrun and they can't remove her
> parents' abusive rules. And
> while I actually appalud her chutzpah for not letting their sickness
> ruin her life...**
>
> I'd be tempted to tell her "I know your parents have been wrong about
> many, many things, but bear in mind that it is possible for them to be
> right sometimes, perhaps accidentally." <g>
>
> Betsy
from her home at this time. I would say they aren't right just about ever.
Julie B
nellebelle
Well, Ella Enchanted has evil stepmother and sisters, a usually absentee father (clueless when he is around), a fairy godmother, and a charming Prince Charmont.
Mary Ellen
Mary Ellen
----- Original Message -----It's another spin on the Cinderella story.<<<<
Cinderella or Sleeping Beauty?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]