really wild analogies
[email protected]
<< > So if I open a door and my daughter is standing on the other side and
is like hitting a kid in the head with a door???
Maybe taking a break from the list would be helpful.
Arguing to help people understand unschooling is the purpose of this list,
not disrupting with crazy examples designed to... designed to WHAT!?
If I decide to unschool but I'm not very good at it, is that like driving a
car without a license? And if I run over someone does it matter if I saw them
or not? Sheeeeesh.
Let's talk about REAL things, helpful to children's learning.
I know that extreme analogies can help clarify thinking, but to take
something benign and happy and compare it to assault is no longer analogous in a
useful way.
Sandra
> theBuying a microscope with the intent to lure a child into taking a peek
> door slams into her head and knocks her down, does it matter whether I
> realized she was there and intentionally meant to assault her, or . . . >>
is like hitting a kid in the head with a door???
Maybe taking a break from the list would be helpful.
Arguing to help people understand unschooling is the purpose of this list,
not disrupting with crazy examples designed to... designed to WHAT!?
If I decide to unschool but I'm not very good at it, is that like driving a
car without a license? And if I run over someone does it matter if I saw them
or not? Sheeeeesh.
Let's talk about REAL things, helpful to children's learning.
I know that extreme analogies can help clarify thinking, but to take
something benign and happy and compare it to assault is no longer analogous in a
useful way.
Sandra
nnylnell
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
imply that strewing was the same as assault, just that a parent's
intent in doing it might be relevant to how successful it is.
think if it's shut down and the questioners are shooed off the list,
less learning about strewing and unschooling will happen.
If there are people out there who are seriously worried that strewing
is or can be manipulative, wouldn't it be more productive to keep
talking about how to do it (as people have been, I know, and it's been
great) so it's not manipulative, rather than dismiss the concerns of
the worriers as nonsense or crazy or personally offensive?
I know from being on other lists that "strewing (or some forms of
strewing) is manipulative" is an idea that's out there. Should we not
acknowledge that some people think that, or should we argue against
it, so there's an argument out there to counter the idea?
"Expect your ideas to be challenged."
"If you don't want it discussed, don't bring it up."
"Don't tell the rest of us that you think so-and-so is being rude and
don't bother trying to help them improve their manners."
"Ignore what you don't like, it might be something others like a lot."
Those are all self-proclaimed "rules" of the list. Do they apply to
list owners, too, or just the rest of us?
I'm going to take a little break from the list myself. It's been
brought to my attention that I could stand to do a little more strewing.
Lynn
>side and
> << > So if I open a door and my daughter is standing on the other
> > the. . . >>
> > door slams into her head and knocks her down, does it matter whether I
> > realized she was there and intentionally meant to assault her, or
>It probably wasn't the best analogy, but I don't think she meant to
>
> Buying a microscope with the intent to lure a child into taking a peek
> is like hitting a kid in the head with a door???
imply that strewing was the same as assault, just that a parent's
intent in doing it might be relevant to how successful it is.
> Maybe taking a break from the list would be helpful.list,
> Arguing to help people understand unschooling is the purpose of this
> not disrupting with crazy examples designed to... designed to WHAT!?I think this discussion is helping people understand unschooling. I
think if it's shut down and the questioners are shooed off the list,
less learning about strewing and unschooling will happen.
If there are people out there who are seriously worried that strewing
is or can be manipulative, wouldn't it be more productive to keep
talking about how to do it (as people have been, I know, and it's been
great) so it's not manipulative, rather than dismiss the concerns of
the worriers as nonsense or crazy or personally offensive?
I know from being on other lists that "strewing (or some forms of
strewing) is manipulative" is an idea that's out there. Should we not
acknowledge that some people think that, or should we argue against
it, so there's an argument out there to counter the idea?
"Expect your ideas to be challenged."
"If you don't want it discussed, don't bring it up."
"Don't tell the rest of us that you think so-and-so is being rude and
don't bother trying to help them improve their manners."
"Ignore what you don't like, it might be something others like a lot."
Those are all self-proclaimed "rules" of the list. Do they apply to
list owners, too, or just the rest of us?
I'm going to take a little break from the list myself. It's been
brought to my attention that I could stand to do a little more strewing.
Lynn
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/4/2005 12:53:59 PM Mountain Standard Time,
nnylnell@... writes:
It probably wasn't the best analogy, but I don't think she meant to
imply that strewing was the same as assault, just that a parent's
intent in doing it might be relevant to how successful it is.
==============
Well then it's even worse.
Hit with the door is hit with the door, regardless of intent. A purposeful
hit isn't always harder than an accidental one.
But in the case of a GOOD outcome--kid sees a streetmap of his own town for
the first time--it doesn't matter where he saw it (filling station, school,
home) as long as it was fascinating for him.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nnylnell@... writes:
It probably wasn't the best analogy, but I don't think she meant to
imply that strewing was the same as assault, just that a parent's
intent in doing it might be relevant to how successful it is.
==============
Well then it's even worse.
Hit with the door is hit with the door, regardless of intent. A purposeful
hit isn't always harder than an accidental one.
But in the case of a GOOD outcome--kid sees a streetmap of his own town for
the first time--it doesn't matter where he saw it (filling station, school,
home) as long as it was fascinating for him.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/4/2005 12:53:59 PM Mountain Standard Time,
nnylnell@... writes:
I know from being on other lists that "strewing (or some forms of
strewing) is manipulative" is an idea that's out there. Should we not
acknowledge that some people think that, or should we argue against
it, so there's an argument out there to counter the idea?
-----------------
Yes, there are wrongheaded ideas about unschooling out and about.
This list isn't a catalog of those. It's to help people who do want to
understand to understand it better. It's to help those who are on the path move
further along the path.
-=-"Expect your ideas to be challenged."
"If you don't want it discussed, don't bring it up."
"Don't tell the rest of us that you think so-and-so is being rude and
don't bother trying to help them improve their manners."
"Ignore what you don't like, it might be something others like a lot."
Those are all self-proclaimed "rules" of the list. Do they apply to
list owners, too, or just the rest of us?
-=-
Three of the most vocal posters are on moderation, and moderators are letting
those posts through. If there was no intent to discuss it, the conversation
would've mysteriously ended yesterday morning. The suggestions to discuss it
more clearly and less wildly are intended to help others understand
unschooling better.
When you're quoting the rules (not self-proclaimed, carefully composed by
the listowners with the advice of others, and posted in two places so people can
find them more easily even after they've received them in the mail when they
join), please don't forget the purpose of the list. If a discussion is no
longer serving the purpose, it's time to move on.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nnylnell@... writes:
I know from being on other lists that "strewing (or some forms of
strewing) is manipulative" is an idea that's out there. Should we not
acknowledge that some people think that, or should we argue against
it, so there's an argument out there to counter the idea?
-----------------
Yes, there are wrongheaded ideas about unschooling out and about.
This list isn't a catalog of those. It's to help people who do want to
understand to understand it better. It's to help those who are on the path move
further along the path.
-=-"Expect your ideas to be challenged."
"If you don't want it discussed, don't bring it up."
"Don't tell the rest of us that you think so-and-so is being rude and
don't bother trying to help them improve their manners."
"Ignore what you don't like, it might be something others like a lot."
Those are all self-proclaimed "rules" of the list. Do they apply to
list owners, too, or just the rest of us?
-=-
Three of the most vocal posters are on moderation, and moderators are letting
those posts through. If there was no intent to discuss it, the conversation
would've mysteriously ended yesterday morning. The suggestions to discuss it
more clearly and less wildly are intended to help others understand
unschooling better.
When you're quoting the rules (not self-proclaimed, carefully composed by
the listowners with the advice of others, and posted in two places so people can
find them more easily even after they've received them in the mail when they
join), please don't forget the purpose of the list. If a discussion is no
longer serving the purpose, it's time to move on.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
averyschmidt
> When you're quoting the rules (not self-proclaimed, carefullycomposed by
> the listowners with the advice of others, and posted in two placesso people can
> find them more easily even after they've received them in the mailwhen they
> join), please don't forget the purpose of the list. If adiscussion is no
> longer serving the purpose, it's time to move on."The purpose of this list is to move out of our own comfort zones as
we critically examine our beliefs, ideas, and viewpoints about
learning, and seek a deeper understanding of unschooling and more
respectful relationships with our children."
It seems to me that this conversation has fit the list purpose
beautifully. Several people have said onlist (and several offlist)
that this conversation has been helpful and enlightening to them.
One person insisting that it HASN'T been helpful won't change that
fact.
Patti
pam sorooshian
On Jan 4, 2005, at 1:25 PM, averyschmidt wrote:
And if there are people who want to know more about what is meant by
"strewing" and why it is often suggested as something unschooling
parents can do, then feel free to ask. Otherwise, I think it is pretty
clear that we've all heard that Holly and Dar are critical of strewing,
at least under some conditions, and others have defended it and we've
all had a chance to hear both sides. I trust that people having heard
it will make up their own minds.
I'm also sure that Sandra, Joyce, and I and others will continue to
suggest "strewing" things in the paths of children as a way for
unschoolers to create a rich learning environment!
-pam
> It seems to me that this conversation has fit the list purposeThat's great - I'm glad.
> beautifully. Several people have said onlist (and several offlist)
> that this conversation has been helpful and enlightening to them.
> One person insisting that it HASN'T been helpful won't change that
> fact.
And if there are people who want to know more about what is meant by
"strewing" and why it is often suggested as something unschooling
parents can do, then feel free to ask. Otherwise, I think it is pretty
clear that we've all heard that Holly and Dar are critical of strewing,
at least under some conditions, and others have defended it and we've
all had a chance to hear both sides. I trust that people having heard
it will make up their own minds.
I'm also sure that Sandra, Joyce, and I and others will continue to
suggest "strewing" things in the paths of children as a way for
unschoolers to create a rich learning environment!
-pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/5/2005 12:41:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
I'm also sure that Sandra, Joyce, and I and others will continue to
suggest "strewing" things in the paths of children as a way for
unschoolers to create a rich learning environment!
This thread helped me to realize how far I've come with "strewing." I have
one child who 'strews" for me as much as I do for her. This morning I got up
to find the words from an Indigo Girls song by the coffee pot to read. Last
night, she called me into her room to listen to the song and I had a hard
time understanding the lyrics. It was cool to wake up and see why she was so
taken with the song.
My son has interests that are so different than anything I would ever be
drawn to but I learn so much as I find things that he might enjoy. Lately it's
been origami, robot making, and lots of computer sites that he shares with
me. Late last night we were playing with the voice activation on the computer.
So often, I see something on one of the unschooling sites and it becomes a
new adventure for us all.
When I was first starting to "strew" it was just not natural. I would look
into the closet or go into stores and try and find "Things to Strew." I just
kept at it until now it's something that is a natural progression from
conversations or something one of us reads or sees on TV. That's one of the
coolest things about unschooling....not knowing what the day will bring but
realizing that it will be fun. For me, it's been just being open to anything that
might come up and then just finding a way to explore it soon rather than
thinking..."I'll get that someday" or "We'll do that someday." I try to get it
or do it now.
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
I'm also sure that Sandra, Joyce, and I and others will continue to
suggest "strewing" things in the paths of children as a way for
unschoolers to create a rich learning environment!
This thread helped me to realize how far I've come with "strewing." I have
one child who 'strews" for me as much as I do for her. This morning I got up
to find the words from an Indigo Girls song by the coffee pot to read. Last
night, she called me into her room to listen to the song and I had a hard
time understanding the lyrics. It was cool to wake up and see why she was so
taken with the song.
My son has interests that are so different than anything I would ever be
drawn to but I learn so much as I find things that he might enjoy. Lately it's
been origami, robot making, and lots of computer sites that he shares with
me. Late last night we were playing with the voice activation on the computer.
So often, I see something on one of the unschooling sites and it becomes a
new adventure for us all.
When I was first starting to "strew" it was just not natural. I would look
into the closet or go into stores and try and find "Things to Strew." I just
kept at it until now it's something that is a natural progression from
conversations or something one of us reads or sees on TV. That's one of the
coolest things about unschooling....not knowing what the day will bring but
realizing that it will be fun. For me, it's been just being open to anything that
might come up and then just finding a way to explore it soon rather than
thinking..."I'll get that someday" or "We'll do that someday." I try to get it
or do it now.
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
Oh Gail - this was a very heartwarming note to wake up to this morning!
Thank you for sharing it!
I have to admit - it really gives me a good feeling to think about all
of you, all over the WORLD, raising children in this sweet way.
I know we all have our bumps in the road - my own kids seem to have
been bickering nonstop for the past two weeks - but, overall, isn't
unschooling just GRAND????!!!!!
-pam
Thank you for sharing it!
I have to admit - it really gives me a good feeling to think about all
of you, all over the WORLD, raising children in this sweet way.
I know we all have our bumps in the road - my own kids seem to have
been bickering nonstop for the past two weeks - but, overall, isn't
unschooling just GRAND????!!!!!
-pam
On Jan 5, 2005, at 7:04 AM, gailbrocop@... wrote:
>
> When I was first starting to "strew" it was just not natural. I would
> look
> into the closet or go into stores and try and find "Things to Strew."
> I just
> kept at it until now it's something that is a natural progression from
> conversations or something one of us reads or sees on TV. That's one
> of the
> coolest things about unschooling....not knowing what the day will
> bring but
> realizing that it will be fun. For me, it's been just being open to
> anything that
> might come up and then just finding a way to explore it soon rather
> than
> thinking..."I'll get that someday" or "We'll do that someday." I try
> to get it
> or do it now.
diana jenner
pam sorooshian wrote:
and hasn't stopped <vbg> It's going to be a very fun, lazy, joyful day
'round here! :) diana
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 12-30-2004
>Oh Gail - this was a very heartwarming note to wake up to this morning!We're snowed in today!! Our first snowfall of winter started yesterday
>Thank you for sharing it!
>
>I have to admit - it really gives me a good feeling to think about all
>of you, all over the WORLD, raising children in this sweet way.
>
>I know we all have our bumps in the road - my own kids seem to have
>been bickering nonstop for the past two weeks - but, overall, isn't
>unschooling just GRAND????!!!!!
>
>
and hasn't stopped <vbg> It's going to be a very fun, lazy, joyful day
'round here! :) diana
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 12-30-2004