Need advice on visitation situation.
Nichole Fausey-Khosraviani
Where to begin... Um... Okay, I was married to XH (Ex-Husband) for 11 years. We separated when Margaux was almost a year old. Margaux is now 7.5. XH has flown her to Pennsylvania usually twice a year since she was about 3.5. It's always a very difficult situation for her. XH has read the unschooling books I've asked him to read, namely Learning All the Time, Teach Your Own, and The Unschooling Handbook. He kinda gets it, but he's the only one who does there in PA among his relatives and in-laws.
Since Margaux's first visit, she's had to be cared for by XH's mother-in-law (MIL) during the day because XH and his wife both worked outside the home. They have no other children. There have always been problems with this woman (XH's MIL) taking care of Margaux-- she's nearly 80 and not in the best of health, has little patience, watches television all day....and likes things quiet.
After the first year, I asked XH not to take Margaux there again, that he should ask his own mother, who I've always loved and trusted, to take care of Margaux or to arrange his vacation such that he can be with Margaux while she's visiting. That seems pretty reasonable to me, that he would want to be with his daughter more than just 2 to 3 hours in the evenings. In times past, these visits have been 3 weeks--a terribly long time. This time, however, is two weeks and she's coming home on Sunday night. She's been gone since the nineteenth. Anyway... he still has had his MIL watching Margaux for at least one of the weeks she's been there each time, except this one.
The first week of this visit was fairly uneventful. Margaux did call home the first night crying that she wanted to come home, she missed me and wanted me to tell her some stories. XH had agreed to sleep with her, but it wasn't anything like sleeping at home with me. The next morning she called me crying--she was lonely though Grandma and Grandpa were there (and they were there for the first week, as well as some teenage cousins and an aunt and uncle). XH was at work and his wife was shopping. (Wife now works from home.)
Everyday Margaux and I talk a few times and are silly on the phone. We also discuss any difficulties she may be having and how she might want to deal with them. On occasion I will talk with XH because of something his wife did that was mean or hurt Margaux's feelings...for instance, not letting Margaux eat when she says she hungry because it's not yet *lunch time* according to her or telling Margaux that it makes no sense to suck her finger (something she usually does only when she's nervous) and that she doesn't understand it... over and over and over again...not to mention forced baths, and hair brushing and being made to finish every last bite of any meal she's eating..
Today there was a melt-down in the situation and that's why I'm writing. I feel really sick about the whole thing. Here's what happened:
XH's MIL regularly watches a little boy and Margaux has gotten used to him over the past 4 years. So, when XH told Margaux that the little boy would be there and asked if she wanted to see him, Margaux said she would like that. They did not discuss this with me. Had they done so, I would have talked with Margaux about possible scenarios and solutions, but they didn't. I don't fault Margaux for this, of course.
So, XH takes Margaux at 8am to his MIL's home. He also took a lunch for her. He didn't think very far, however, and only took a can of Spaghetti-O's. So, around 11, she tells the MIL that she is hungry. MIL says that the little boy usually eats at 12 or 1 and that she'd have to wait. Grrr! So, Margaux says Okay and goes back to watching the gorilla movie they were watching. A few minutes later, and she's feeling homesick, hungry, lonely, she asks if she can have her spaghetti-O's now.
MIL repeats that she will have to wait until the little boy has his lunch.
So, Margaux goes into the bathroom with her cell phone and calls me. After a minute or two, she tells me that she's at MIL's house. Tells me that she's hungry and she's not allowed to eat. I ask her why and she tells me. She starts to cry a little, but I can tell she's trying hard to keep it together. I told her that I would call her dad at work and that he would take care of it. She felt good about that and I told her to just hang tight and all would be well shortly. She said she was okay, and we got off the phone.
As she came out of the bathroom, she discovered that MIL had been listening to her phone call with me. MIL yelled at her and said she was really hurt and was so upset because of what XH would think. She made her the spaghetti-O's.
Meanwhile, I called XH and told him what was going on. After I told him, he continued to talk to me as if nothing was wrong, until I said I'd talk to him later and could he please take care of this situation right now. He said he would.
So, I called Margaux back right away on her cell phone. She didn't answer and I figured she was talking with XH. I waited about 20 minutes and called again. She answered and I asked if everything was okay. She said she was eating and things were fine. She said that XH's wife just got there, and she told me that they were going to go shopping at the Christmas Village store. She sounded Okay. Wanting her to get out of there as quickly as possible, I told her that I love her and that I'd call her later, and to call me whenever she wanted to talk with me.
I went off to paint and then called her at 5:30. I asked her how shopping went. She told me that she didn't go shopping. I asked her why. She said because she had hurt MIL's feeling and XH's wife didn't want to take her shopping. guh...
I asked her what she meant and she told me that she shouldn't have gotten me involved. Whoa... that doesn't sound like Margaux at all. Again, I asked her what she meant. She was hesitant and I could hear XH and his wife in the background. Margaux told me she was working on an apology card to send to MIL. I asked why she was apologizing. She said she was apologizing for calling me. I told her she didn't do anything wrong by calling me and that she could call me anytime for any reason. She said she was confused. I told her I was sorry that she was feeling like that and sorry that she had to deal with this situation. After a little while, I asked to talk with XH.
XH pleaded ignorance, said he just got home from work and didn't know what happened. He assumed that Margaux was being rude and jumping up and down and yelling at MIL's house. I was not only angry that he said that about Margaux without knowing anything about what happened, I was mad *for* her. I told him that Margaux must have been made to feel guilty about the situation by his wife and that it was ridiculous to make her send an apology. He said he knew nothing about it and to his knowledge it was Margaux's idea to send the card. I asked to speak with Margaux again.
I asked Margaux to go to a private area of the house where she could speak freely. She told her dad and his wife that she needed some privacy and they agreed. She went upstairs to her room and closed the door. I asked her what had happened and why she was writing this card.
She said that MIL was nearly crying when she (Margaux) was leaving and that XH's wife made Margaux apologize to both MIL and the little boy, which Margaux did. Then, XH's wife would not allow Margaux to use her (Margaux's) cell phone to call me on the drive home, which is about 20 to 30 minutes. On this drive, XH's wife told Margaux that Margaux would have to spend some time in her room when they got back home and that she should take a nap. She also told Margaux how upsetting it was that she had made her mother (the MIL) so sad just because "she didn't get her way."
Then I told Margaux again that it was not wrong of her to call me. She said that if she hadn't, this wouldn't have happened, and that calling me was what started the whole mess. I told her that if MIL would have allowed her to eat when she said she was hungry that this wouldn't have happened. She saw the logic in that. I told her that I don't like it when she goes to MIL's house because she always feels bad afterward. Last visit MIL told her that if she went to public school they'd teach her some discipline. This was because Margaux wanted to dance to some music on the television and MIL wanted her to sit quietly.
I asked her if there was anything else that she wanted me to discuss with her dad. She said there wasn't. I asked her if it was Okay to tell him what she told me. She said it was and I asked to speak with him.
He got on the phone and I related Margaux's side of the story, including what MIL said about XH being upset. XH is not violent or quick to anger by any measure. He's very calm, even-tempered, and good natured--not someone to fear. After I told him everything Margaux had said and gave my commentary as to how inappropriate I thought it was for Margaux to have been made to apologize to MIL and then to be guilted into writing a card, he said that everyone is terrified of me.
Huh?
He said the MIL is terrified that if she does something to upset Margaux that I'm not going to let her visit again. I said that I don't want Margaux to go over there and I haven't wanted her there for the last 3 years. He said that's not the fear. The fear is that I won't let Margaux visit XH again. I told him that was ridiculous and that I never said anything like that to Margaux or to anyone else...that I don't even talk with MIL, so she's not getting that from me. Regardless, that's her fear.
Then we went on to talk about custody agreements. I have been living under the impression that our custody agreement is that we have joint legal custody and I have full physical custody. Visitation is by agreement and that should I protest a visit, he would have to take me to court to rectify the situation. He said we have no custody agreement at all.
As the conversation went on, he started getting upset...like I said, he doesn't get upset easily. He started saying that his mother is also terrified of me because of what happened last summer. Last summer, Margaux spent a week at her house and she had my permission to keep Margaux as long as either she or her daughter, Carol, were the only people who'd ever take care of Margaux--in other words, Margaux was not to be left alone with anyone else. She was to be under no one else's care. I called Margaux when Grandma and Grandpa were not home. She was under the care of her uncle, a prejudiced, racist, horrible individual, and his new girlfriend. I was livid and very nervous. I stayed on the phone acting as if nothing were wrong, telling Margaux jokes and being silly until Grandma got home. Then I called XH and told him what had happened--even he was unaware. At this point, I may have said that I didn't want Margaux to go to XH's mother's, that XH's mother clearly didn't understand the stipulations of keeping Margaux for a week. I really don't remember if I said that or not, but I still remember the feeling. I think XH made it clear to his mother that no one else was to be her caregiver and then she did understand. So, now he's telling me that she is terrified of me, too, that I won't let Margaux see XH if she makes another mistake. I know Margaux didn't tell her this. I have to believe that this is all coming directly from XH himself.
So, I've analyzed this for about 5 hours now. I don't know how much of this sick feeling in my stomach is unease with Margaux being there, feeling like she is really not protected from people who are not going to understand how to treat children with respect and compassion, and how much is my own experience of being a child around my step-mother and always feeling afraid of doing something she'd consider wrong or bad and punishing me, making me feel ashamed for telling my mother or my father (my father and step-mother raised me, but my step-mother never treated me like I was her own). I want Margaux's visits to be enjoyable for her and I want her to be able to cope well. I don't know what to do. Am I doing something wrong by telling her that she can call me whenever she wants to call me? Am I wrong in thinking that she should be able to eat when she's hungry? Am I wrong in thinking that she should be treated like a whole human being with as much respect as any adult would be given in the same situations? Am I right in thinking any of these things? If I am, how do I help the situation and not hinder it. I feel very conflicted, nervous, angry, sick, sad, and I'm desperately missing my little girl. Is the freedom we enjoy here hurting her when she visits? What should I do? Should I not teach her to assert herself? How do I help her? Is there anything I should do to communicate with XH's mother or his MIL?
Anxious & uneasy,
Nichole
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Since Margaux's first visit, she's had to be cared for by XH's mother-in-law (MIL) during the day because XH and his wife both worked outside the home. They have no other children. There have always been problems with this woman (XH's MIL) taking care of Margaux-- she's nearly 80 and not in the best of health, has little patience, watches television all day....and likes things quiet.
After the first year, I asked XH not to take Margaux there again, that he should ask his own mother, who I've always loved and trusted, to take care of Margaux or to arrange his vacation such that he can be with Margaux while she's visiting. That seems pretty reasonable to me, that he would want to be with his daughter more than just 2 to 3 hours in the evenings. In times past, these visits have been 3 weeks--a terribly long time. This time, however, is two weeks and she's coming home on Sunday night. She's been gone since the nineteenth. Anyway... he still has had his MIL watching Margaux for at least one of the weeks she's been there each time, except this one.
The first week of this visit was fairly uneventful. Margaux did call home the first night crying that she wanted to come home, she missed me and wanted me to tell her some stories. XH had agreed to sleep with her, but it wasn't anything like sleeping at home with me. The next morning she called me crying--she was lonely though Grandma and Grandpa were there (and they were there for the first week, as well as some teenage cousins and an aunt and uncle). XH was at work and his wife was shopping. (Wife now works from home.)
Everyday Margaux and I talk a few times and are silly on the phone. We also discuss any difficulties she may be having and how she might want to deal with them. On occasion I will talk with XH because of something his wife did that was mean or hurt Margaux's feelings...for instance, not letting Margaux eat when she says she hungry because it's not yet *lunch time* according to her or telling Margaux that it makes no sense to suck her finger (something she usually does only when she's nervous) and that she doesn't understand it... over and over and over again...not to mention forced baths, and hair brushing and being made to finish every last bite of any meal she's eating..
Today there was a melt-down in the situation and that's why I'm writing. I feel really sick about the whole thing. Here's what happened:
XH's MIL regularly watches a little boy and Margaux has gotten used to him over the past 4 years. So, when XH told Margaux that the little boy would be there and asked if she wanted to see him, Margaux said she would like that. They did not discuss this with me. Had they done so, I would have talked with Margaux about possible scenarios and solutions, but they didn't. I don't fault Margaux for this, of course.
So, XH takes Margaux at 8am to his MIL's home. He also took a lunch for her. He didn't think very far, however, and only took a can of Spaghetti-O's. So, around 11, she tells the MIL that she is hungry. MIL says that the little boy usually eats at 12 or 1 and that she'd have to wait. Grrr! So, Margaux says Okay and goes back to watching the gorilla movie they were watching. A few minutes later, and she's feeling homesick, hungry, lonely, she asks if she can have her spaghetti-O's now.
MIL repeats that she will have to wait until the little boy has his lunch.
So, Margaux goes into the bathroom with her cell phone and calls me. After a minute or two, she tells me that she's at MIL's house. Tells me that she's hungry and she's not allowed to eat. I ask her why and she tells me. She starts to cry a little, but I can tell she's trying hard to keep it together. I told her that I would call her dad at work and that he would take care of it. She felt good about that and I told her to just hang tight and all would be well shortly. She said she was okay, and we got off the phone.
As she came out of the bathroom, she discovered that MIL had been listening to her phone call with me. MIL yelled at her and said she was really hurt and was so upset because of what XH would think. She made her the spaghetti-O's.
Meanwhile, I called XH and told him what was going on. After I told him, he continued to talk to me as if nothing was wrong, until I said I'd talk to him later and could he please take care of this situation right now. He said he would.
So, I called Margaux back right away on her cell phone. She didn't answer and I figured she was talking with XH. I waited about 20 minutes and called again. She answered and I asked if everything was okay. She said she was eating and things were fine. She said that XH's wife just got there, and she told me that they were going to go shopping at the Christmas Village store. She sounded Okay. Wanting her to get out of there as quickly as possible, I told her that I love her and that I'd call her later, and to call me whenever she wanted to talk with me.
I went off to paint and then called her at 5:30. I asked her how shopping went. She told me that she didn't go shopping. I asked her why. She said because she had hurt MIL's feeling and XH's wife didn't want to take her shopping. guh...
I asked her what she meant and she told me that she shouldn't have gotten me involved. Whoa... that doesn't sound like Margaux at all. Again, I asked her what she meant. She was hesitant and I could hear XH and his wife in the background. Margaux told me she was working on an apology card to send to MIL. I asked why she was apologizing. She said she was apologizing for calling me. I told her she didn't do anything wrong by calling me and that she could call me anytime for any reason. She said she was confused. I told her I was sorry that she was feeling like that and sorry that she had to deal with this situation. After a little while, I asked to talk with XH.
XH pleaded ignorance, said he just got home from work and didn't know what happened. He assumed that Margaux was being rude and jumping up and down and yelling at MIL's house. I was not only angry that he said that about Margaux without knowing anything about what happened, I was mad *for* her. I told him that Margaux must have been made to feel guilty about the situation by his wife and that it was ridiculous to make her send an apology. He said he knew nothing about it and to his knowledge it was Margaux's idea to send the card. I asked to speak with Margaux again.
I asked Margaux to go to a private area of the house where she could speak freely. She told her dad and his wife that she needed some privacy and they agreed. She went upstairs to her room and closed the door. I asked her what had happened and why she was writing this card.
She said that MIL was nearly crying when she (Margaux) was leaving and that XH's wife made Margaux apologize to both MIL and the little boy, which Margaux did. Then, XH's wife would not allow Margaux to use her (Margaux's) cell phone to call me on the drive home, which is about 20 to 30 minutes. On this drive, XH's wife told Margaux that Margaux would have to spend some time in her room when they got back home and that she should take a nap. She also told Margaux how upsetting it was that she had made her mother (the MIL) so sad just because "she didn't get her way."
Then I told Margaux again that it was not wrong of her to call me. She said that if she hadn't, this wouldn't have happened, and that calling me was what started the whole mess. I told her that if MIL would have allowed her to eat when she said she was hungry that this wouldn't have happened. She saw the logic in that. I told her that I don't like it when she goes to MIL's house because she always feels bad afterward. Last visit MIL told her that if she went to public school they'd teach her some discipline. This was because Margaux wanted to dance to some music on the television and MIL wanted her to sit quietly.
I asked her if there was anything else that she wanted me to discuss with her dad. She said there wasn't. I asked her if it was Okay to tell him what she told me. She said it was and I asked to speak with him.
He got on the phone and I related Margaux's side of the story, including what MIL said about XH being upset. XH is not violent or quick to anger by any measure. He's very calm, even-tempered, and good natured--not someone to fear. After I told him everything Margaux had said and gave my commentary as to how inappropriate I thought it was for Margaux to have been made to apologize to MIL and then to be guilted into writing a card, he said that everyone is terrified of me.
Huh?
He said the MIL is terrified that if she does something to upset Margaux that I'm not going to let her visit again. I said that I don't want Margaux to go over there and I haven't wanted her there for the last 3 years. He said that's not the fear. The fear is that I won't let Margaux visit XH again. I told him that was ridiculous and that I never said anything like that to Margaux or to anyone else...that I don't even talk with MIL, so she's not getting that from me. Regardless, that's her fear.
Then we went on to talk about custody agreements. I have been living under the impression that our custody agreement is that we have joint legal custody and I have full physical custody. Visitation is by agreement and that should I protest a visit, he would have to take me to court to rectify the situation. He said we have no custody agreement at all.
As the conversation went on, he started getting upset...like I said, he doesn't get upset easily. He started saying that his mother is also terrified of me because of what happened last summer. Last summer, Margaux spent a week at her house and she had my permission to keep Margaux as long as either she or her daughter, Carol, were the only people who'd ever take care of Margaux--in other words, Margaux was not to be left alone with anyone else. She was to be under no one else's care. I called Margaux when Grandma and Grandpa were not home. She was under the care of her uncle, a prejudiced, racist, horrible individual, and his new girlfriend. I was livid and very nervous. I stayed on the phone acting as if nothing were wrong, telling Margaux jokes and being silly until Grandma got home. Then I called XH and told him what had happened--even he was unaware. At this point, I may have said that I didn't want Margaux to go to XH's mother's, that XH's mother clearly didn't understand the stipulations of keeping Margaux for a week. I really don't remember if I said that or not, but I still remember the feeling. I think XH made it clear to his mother that no one else was to be her caregiver and then she did understand. So, now he's telling me that she is terrified of me, too, that I won't let Margaux see XH if she makes another mistake. I know Margaux didn't tell her this. I have to believe that this is all coming directly from XH himself.
So, I've analyzed this for about 5 hours now. I don't know how much of this sick feeling in my stomach is unease with Margaux being there, feeling like she is really not protected from people who are not going to understand how to treat children with respect and compassion, and how much is my own experience of being a child around my step-mother and always feeling afraid of doing something she'd consider wrong or bad and punishing me, making me feel ashamed for telling my mother or my father (my father and step-mother raised me, but my step-mother never treated me like I was her own). I want Margaux's visits to be enjoyable for her and I want her to be able to cope well. I don't know what to do. Am I doing something wrong by telling her that she can call me whenever she wants to call me? Am I wrong in thinking that she should be able to eat when she's hungry? Am I wrong in thinking that she should be treated like a whole human being with as much respect as any adult would be given in the same situations? Am I right in thinking any of these things? If I am, how do I help the situation and not hinder it. I feel very conflicted, nervous, angry, sick, sad, and I'm desperately missing my little girl. Is the freedom we enjoy here hurting her when she visits? What should I do? Should I not teach her to assert herself? How do I help her? Is there anything I should do to communicate with XH's mother or his MIL?
Anxious & uneasy,
Nichole
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<<<Then we went on to talk about custody agreements. I have been living
under the impression that our custody agreement is that we have joint legal
custody and I have full physical custody. Visitation is by agreement and
that should I protest a visit, he would have to take me to court to rectify
the situation. He said we have no custody agreement at all. >>>>>
My thought is that this should be investigated, and used as an opportunity
to create something more flexible. Would a couple of shorter long weekend
(ie when Dad is home from work) visits be better than this long work-weeks
visit? Would the new wife be an ally or hindrance in this?
I always understood that visitation was supposed to be primarily the child's
right to contact with their parent, with the parent's right to contact with
the child secondary. I guess I am wrong. It seems completely pointless to
send her to be baby sat by others all day long. My nephew, now a teen, sees
his father only on the weekends and holidays, unless he goes to his father's
work with him over school holidays (when they travel to exotic locations for
movies).
Keep all these negative events documented. Keep your phone records of these
calls.
Thank goodness you have the cel phone to support your daughter. Have you
thought of asking your xh's wife to read some of the books you mentioned, or
some more general parenting books, like "How to talk etc".
<<<<<Is the freedom we enjoy here hurting her when she visits? What should
I do? Should I not teach her to assert herself? >>>>>>
The freedom you enjoy is helping her for the vast majority of the time when
she is with you, and helping her keep her authentic self intact. If you
start telling her to not assert herself what might be the result? Fear,
confusion, distrust of you, not speaking to her father about her immediate
concerns? I think you should continue to support her self confidence and
ability to be assertive. Maybe she should also have her own snacks that do
not require an adults' further preparation.
<<<< How do I help her? Is there anything I should do to communicate with
XH's mother or his MIL?>>>
I guess there is no communicating with the wife?
It seems like your desires/expectations are all being communicated verbally
and through several people. It seems to me that is a recipe for
misunderstandings - remember playing "Chinese Whispers" as a kid - "send
reinforcements; we are going to advance" became "send three and fourpence;
we are going to a dance" according to an old WWI story or myth.
I would suggest any communication that is done be done in letters, with
copies to XH (including stipulating about her own snacks in a bag).
I can't help feeling that XH's mother probably wants to love her
granddaughter, but doesn't know what M. needs.
<<<<Anxious & uneasy,>>>>
(((((((((Nichole)))))))))
I suppose you couldn't move to where they live, to allow a more direct
relationship between father and daughter, without the "extra caregivers"
complication.
Robyn L. Coburn
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under the impression that our custody agreement is that we have joint legal
custody and I have full physical custody. Visitation is by agreement and
that should I protest a visit, he would have to take me to court to rectify
the situation. He said we have no custody agreement at all. >>>>>
My thought is that this should be investigated, and used as an opportunity
to create something more flexible. Would a couple of shorter long weekend
(ie when Dad is home from work) visits be better than this long work-weeks
visit? Would the new wife be an ally or hindrance in this?
I always understood that visitation was supposed to be primarily the child's
right to contact with their parent, with the parent's right to contact with
the child secondary. I guess I am wrong. It seems completely pointless to
send her to be baby sat by others all day long. My nephew, now a teen, sees
his father only on the weekends and holidays, unless he goes to his father's
work with him over school holidays (when they travel to exotic locations for
movies).
Keep all these negative events documented. Keep your phone records of these
calls.
Thank goodness you have the cel phone to support your daughter. Have you
thought of asking your xh's wife to read some of the books you mentioned, or
some more general parenting books, like "How to talk etc".
<<<<<Is the freedom we enjoy here hurting her when she visits? What should
I do? Should I not teach her to assert herself? >>>>>>
The freedom you enjoy is helping her for the vast majority of the time when
she is with you, and helping her keep her authentic self intact. If you
start telling her to not assert herself what might be the result? Fear,
confusion, distrust of you, not speaking to her father about her immediate
concerns? I think you should continue to support her self confidence and
ability to be assertive. Maybe she should also have her own snacks that do
not require an adults' further preparation.
<<<< How do I help her? Is there anything I should do to communicate with
XH's mother or his MIL?>>>
I guess there is no communicating with the wife?
It seems like your desires/expectations are all being communicated verbally
and through several people. It seems to me that is a recipe for
misunderstandings - remember playing "Chinese Whispers" as a kid - "send
reinforcements; we are going to advance" became "send three and fourpence;
we are going to a dance" according to an old WWI story or myth.
I would suggest any communication that is done be done in letters, with
copies to XH (including stipulating about her own snacks in a bag).
I can't help feeling that XH's mother probably wants to love her
granddaughter, but doesn't know what M. needs.
<<<<Anxious & uneasy,>>>>
(((((((((Nichole)))))))))
I suppose you couldn't move to where they live, to allow a more direct
relationship between father and daughter, without the "extra caregivers"
complication.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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Nichole Fausey-Khosraviani
----- Original Message -----
From: Robyn Coburn
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 10:46 PM
Subject: RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Need advice on visitation situation.
******************
My thought is that this should be investigated, and used as an opportunity
to create something more flexible. Would a couple of shorter long weekend
(ie when Dad is home from work) visits be better than this long work-weeks
visit? Would the new wife be an ally or hindrance in this?
************
Actually, Margaux had more anxiety about this trip than any she's had before and she told me that she wants XH to visit her in Texas this year instead of her going to PA. I think he is considering this and I've told him we'll do all we can to accomodate him here. My dh and I are willing to stay at a nearby hotel if he'd like to stay in the house and he can use one of our cars if he wants to. Dh and I have already discussed this at length.
As to XH's new wife, I think she's bright enough to be able to see that a Xh spending a few long weekends in Texas are better for her--less responsibility on her part and XH's two or three weeks of vacation can be all hers instead of spent piece-meal through the year.
It is also cheaper for him to fly here than to fly her up there. I'm really hopeful that he will come down here this year.
**************************
I always understood that visitation was supposed to be primarily the child's
right to contact with their parent, with the parent's right to contact with
the child secondary. I guess I am wrong. It seems completely pointless to
send her to be baby sat by others all day long.
******************
Yes, I've been saying this for years. XH says he wants her to see how he lives and feel what it's like to be part of his life. Bleck, she hates it. She only enjoys it when he's not working and when he'll play games with her, but he seems quite unwilling to take a long vacation with her. His wife is against M going on vacation with them. :o(
**************************
Keep all these negative events documented. Keep your phone records of these
calls.
*****************
Okay, will do.
**************************
Thank goodness you have the cel phone to support your daughter. Have you
thought of asking your xh's wife to read some of the books you mentioned, or
some more general parenting books, like "How to talk etc".
******************
Oh, that's a great idea. I'll order it for them. I was going to send him With Consent: Parenting for All to Win, but I think How to Talk... would go down more easily for both of them right now.
<<<<<Is the freedom we enjoy here hurting her when she visits? What should
I do? Should I not teach her to assert herself? >>>>>>
****************************
The freedom you enjoy is helping her for the vast majority of the time when
she is with you, and helping her keep her authentic self intact. If you
start telling her to not assert herself what might be the result? Fear,
confusion, distrust of you, not speaking to her father about her immediate
concerns? I think you should continue to support her self confidence and
ability to be assertive. Maybe she should also have her own snacks that do
not require an adults' further preparation.
******************
She and I have a beautifully close relationship and I would never want to do anything to weaken her trust in me. My gut told me not to do anything differently, but I'm so passionate about our manner of living, that I wasn't sure if I was seeing clearly. Thank you.
Own snacks. Yes. She should have them. I think that XH has a half day tomorrow and M is staying home with XH's wife in the morning, then it's just Saturday, and on Sunday she flies home. XH said he wouldn't take her to MIL's again. I hope he was being sincere. I think he was.
****************************************
<<<< How do I help her? Is there anything I should do to communicate with
XH's mother or his MIL?>>>
I guess there is no communicating with the wife?
**************************
Well, last year I did speak with her about her arbitrary lunchtimes, but she's really out there as far as child-rearing goes. She's 10 years older than XH and had a tubal ligation without every having been pregnant to assure she'd never have children...way back in her 20s--she's 48. So, she's really inexperienced and is very defensive of her style of dealing with Margaux. When I asked why Margaux couldn't have strawberries (Margaux's favorite food on the planet), she told me it was because it was 15 minutes until lunchtime. Okay, so was lunch a cooked meal that was almost finished? No, it was a peanutbutter and jelly sandwich and grapes.
If I attempt to talk with her again, what would I say? Would it be better if I wrote a letter?
********************************
It seems like your desires/expectations are all being communicated verbally
and through several people. It seems to me that is a recipe for
misunderstandings - remember playing "Chinese Whispers"
********************
Yes, that's true. When Margaux was younger, I used to send along notes and instructions. Maybe I should still be doing that.
*****************************
I would suggest any communication that is done be done in letters, with
copies to XH (including stipulating about her own snacks in a bag).
******************
Okay, yeah, I can do that.
*****************************
I can't help feeling that XH's mother probably wants to love her
granddaughter, but doesn't know what M. needs.
******************
I'm sure that XH's mother loves her. She calls her a few times a month to see how she is, to chit chat, stay close, and they play postal tic-tac-toe. I've never communicated anything negative to XH's mother about anything. I should have communicated with her when Margaux was going to stay there. Yes, I should have done that myself instead of leaving it up to Craig. I see that now, and I should have sent a letter along also.
******************
<<<<Anxious & uneasy,>>>>
(((((((((Nichole)))))))))
*************
Thank you.
************************
I suppose you couldn't move to where they live, to allow a more direct
relationship between father and daughter, without the "extra caregivers"
complication.
***************
No, I couldn't do that--for many reasons, but I think the next time she visits, I'll just drive her there and stay in a nearby hotel. Then I can be with her doing things when Craig is not available. I should have done that this time. There was really nothing stopping me from doing that. What's wrong with me?!! (rhetorical) Yeah, that's what I'll do next time. Why did it take me 4 years to figure out?!!
Thanks, Robyn.
Nichole
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/30/2004 10:00:06 PM Central Standard Time,
ms_fausey@... writes:
He said the MIL is terrified that if she does something to upset Margaux
that I'm not going to let her visit again. I said that I don't want Margaux to
go over there and I haven't wanted her there for the last 3 years. He said
that's not the fear. The fear is that I won't let Margaux visit XH again. I
told him that was ridiculous and that I never said anything like that to
Margaux or to anyone else...that I don't even talk with MIL, so she's not
getting that from me. Regardless, that's her fear.
~~~
You should have said, "Okay, then you will let Margeaux do *anything* she
wants while she's there, and you will stay home with her on vacation for at
least one week while she's there, and you will find someone more child-friendly
to watch her while you work."
You absolutely did the right thing by giving her a cell phone and
encouraging her to call any time. However, I understand how the other adults might
feel that you're spying on them. That Margeaux is "tattling" when she calls.
Still, she should have the freedom to call you whenever she wants.
That uneasy feeling IS that your daughter is half a country away, and you
obviously feel that she is suffering. I do, too. Although, that pretty much
sounds like my childhood and we all "turned out fine". (yeah right) It's just
quite a contrast for Margeaux. Several times I while I was reading I
thought perhaps you should get on a plane and get yourself over there. I don't
know what your situation is with other children or whatever, but maybe you
should make arrangements to be in the area while Margeaux visits her father.
For Margeaux's sake, I think I'd definitely consider moving close enough
that she didn't have to take a plane to get there. Like, within an hour's
drive.
Here's where you get a scolding: Aren't you familiar with your own custody
agreement? Do you have the papers? Have you read them? You're just
believing what he tells you? Know your rights so you can defend them.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ms_fausey@... writes:
He said the MIL is terrified that if she does something to upset Margaux
that I'm not going to let her visit again. I said that I don't want Margaux to
go over there and I haven't wanted her there for the last 3 years. He said
that's not the fear. The fear is that I won't let Margaux visit XH again. I
told him that was ridiculous and that I never said anything like that to
Margaux or to anyone else...that I don't even talk with MIL, so she's not
getting that from me. Regardless, that's her fear.
~~~
You should have said, "Okay, then you will let Margeaux do *anything* she
wants while she's there, and you will stay home with her on vacation for at
least one week while she's there, and you will find someone more child-friendly
to watch her while you work."
You absolutely did the right thing by giving her a cell phone and
encouraging her to call any time. However, I understand how the other adults might
feel that you're spying on them. That Margeaux is "tattling" when she calls.
Still, she should have the freedom to call you whenever she wants.
That uneasy feeling IS that your daughter is half a country away, and you
obviously feel that she is suffering. I do, too. Although, that pretty much
sounds like my childhood and we all "turned out fine". (yeah right) It's just
quite a contrast for Margeaux. Several times I while I was reading I
thought perhaps you should get on a plane and get yourself over there. I don't
know what your situation is with other children or whatever, but maybe you
should make arrangements to be in the area while Margeaux visits her father.
For Margeaux's sake, I think I'd definitely consider moving close enough
that she didn't have to take a plane to get there. Like, within an hour's
drive.
Here's where you get a scolding: Aren't you familiar with your own custody
agreement? Do you have the papers? Have you read them? You're just
believing what he tells you? Know your rights so you can defend them.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/31/2004 2:48:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ms_fausey@... writes:
Actually, Margaux had more anxiety about this trip than any she's had before
and she told me that she wants XH to visit her in Texas this year instead of
her going to PA.
I wanted to share what has worked for us and perhaps it will give you some
ideas. I live with my two children (11 and 15) in Florida with my husband of
5 years. My XH lives in Texas. My husband has 3 children (11, 13 and 15)
who also live in Texas. We have all been divorced almost 8 years and after an
adjustment period this is what has worked best for the children.
My XH comes to Florida 3 times a year for about 5 or 6 days each time. He
comes in March for our son's birthday, in September for our daughter's
birthday and at Christmas. He stays next door at my mom's house but spends the days
with the kids. In the summer, our two children fly to Texas for one week
and stay with him. He is not remarried and he takes a week's vacation to be
with them. He may not "get" our unschooling lives but he does respect it and is
just a wonderful dad to them and in recent years has become a good friend to
me.
My husband's children come to stay with us for one month in the summer. In
Texas, he has to stay at a hotel and that isn't the best situation so they come
here and since I'm home and my husband has a home office, the children can
visit with their dad almost every day and all five of the kids have become
very good friends over the years. After Christmas, my husband goes to Texas (he
just got home last night) and spends 2 or 3 days with them and stays at a
hotel. He occasionally has business trips to their town in Texas and can see
them for an overnight visit during the year.
It's never easy but I think we all made the decision in the early years that
we would just do whatever worked best for each child. Initially, my
daughter was not comfortable going to see her dad so we respected that and I
remember one year I only flew my son to XH house (it was Florida to Denver then) and
back the same day so I would be home to be with my daughter my bedtime. This
last year was the first year we let any of the children fly without one of
the adults with them. All the children spend Christmas at their own homes
because that is what they want to do.
I think all the kids see that we respect their wishes and all the adults are
loving and respectful towards each other. All the decisions need to be
about what is best for your children. I'm not sure if this will help but I do
think that there are creative and healthy ways to do what is best. I really
liked your idea about going to where Marguax is staying to be with her when her
dad is not available.
As she gets older, it may not get easier but your comfort level may be
better because of her maturity and ability to handle situations on her own. It
sounds like your XH respects your daughter and wants to do what is best for
her. My husband's ex-wife had some serious concerns last summer because of our
unschooling lifestyle. She was worried that they were not eating on schedule
and not getting enough sleep. My husband reassured her and to her credit she
even read up on unschooling although she does think we're a bit crazed..:-).
We all love these children and want what is best for them. Our parenting
ideals are very different and the best we can do is keep the communication open
and try to help our children adjust to different lifestyles in a respectful
way. I would give just about anything for my children to have grown up in a
home without divorce but I try very hard to see the positives in our
situation. That's a whole different post, however.
I think you are doing exactly the right thing by examining all the different
possibilities. It may be doing something others think is weird (He's stays
next door with your mother and you all have Christmas dinner together!! :-)
but I've learned just to ignore all that.
I'm sending along many hugs and good wishes. I think your daughter is very
lucky to have you for a mom.
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ms_fausey@... writes:
Actually, Margaux had more anxiety about this trip than any she's had before
and she told me that she wants XH to visit her in Texas this year instead of
her going to PA.
I wanted to share what has worked for us and perhaps it will give you some
ideas. I live with my two children (11 and 15) in Florida with my husband of
5 years. My XH lives in Texas. My husband has 3 children (11, 13 and 15)
who also live in Texas. We have all been divorced almost 8 years and after an
adjustment period this is what has worked best for the children.
My XH comes to Florida 3 times a year for about 5 or 6 days each time. He
comes in March for our son's birthday, in September for our daughter's
birthday and at Christmas. He stays next door at my mom's house but spends the days
with the kids. In the summer, our two children fly to Texas for one week
and stay with him. He is not remarried and he takes a week's vacation to be
with them. He may not "get" our unschooling lives but he does respect it and is
just a wonderful dad to them and in recent years has become a good friend to
me.
My husband's children come to stay with us for one month in the summer. In
Texas, he has to stay at a hotel and that isn't the best situation so they come
here and since I'm home and my husband has a home office, the children can
visit with their dad almost every day and all five of the kids have become
very good friends over the years. After Christmas, my husband goes to Texas (he
just got home last night) and spends 2 or 3 days with them and stays at a
hotel. He occasionally has business trips to their town in Texas and can see
them for an overnight visit during the year.
It's never easy but I think we all made the decision in the early years that
we would just do whatever worked best for each child. Initially, my
daughter was not comfortable going to see her dad so we respected that and I
remember one year I only flew my son to XH house (it was Florida to Denver then) and
back the same day so I would be home to be with my daughter my bedtime. This
last year was the first year we let any of the children fly without one of
the adults with them. All the children spend Christmas at their own homes
because that is what they want to do.
I think all the kids see that we respect their wishes and all the adults are
loving and respectful towards each other. All the decisions need to be
about what is best for your children. I'm not sure if this will help but I do
think that there are creative and healthy ways to do what is best. I really
liked your idea about going to where Marguax is staying to be with her when her
dad is not available.
As she gets older, it may not get easier but your comfort level may be
better because of her maturity and ability to handle situations on her own. It
sounds like your XH respects your daughter and wants to do what is best for
her. My husband's ex-wife had some serious concerns last summer because of our
unschooling lifestyle. She was worried that they were not eating on schedule
and not getting enough sleep. My husband reassured her and to her credit she
even read up on unschooling although she does think we're a bit crazed..:-).
We all love these children and want what is best for them. Our parenting
ideals are very different and the best we can do is keep the communication open
and try to help our children adjust to different lifestyles in a respectful
way. I would give just about anything for my children to have grown up in a
home without divorce but I try very hard to see the positives in our
situation. That's a whole different post, however.
I think you are doing exactly the right thing by examining all the different
possibilities. It may be doing something others think is weird (He's stays
next door with your mother and you all have Christmas dinner together!! :-)
but I've learned just to ignore all that.
I'm sending along many hugs and good wishes. I think your daughter is very
lucky to have you for a mom.
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-=-I told him that Margaux must have been made to feel guilty about the
situation by his wife and that it was ridiculous to make her send an apology. -=-
-=-He started saying that his mother is also terrified of me -=-
"Terrified"? Terrified is a big emotion to invoke or claim when what they
really probably mean is nervous or concerned. Terrified means unable to
function, heart racing, fight-or-flight. How and WHY should adults in their own
homes be "terrified" about anything involving a little girl, unless they know
they're taking risks they don't need to be taking?
And that reminds me of another thing I learned about Holly within the last
two days. She has never had a nightmare.
-=-So, now he's telling me that she is terrified of me, too, that I won't
let Margaux see XH if she makes another mistake. -=-
Were the arrangments in writing?
And speaking of writing, do you have papers from the time of the divorce?
Were there separate custody hearings?
You are keeping the e-mail you wrote, right? I think you should put it in a
Word file, add dates and approximate times, and keep it safe. Maybe if it's
true there was never a custody agreement, it's time to make one and on your
terms of what's safe.
-=-Am I doing something wrong by telling her that she can call me whenever
she wants to call me? Am I wrong in thinking that she should be able to eat
when she's hungry? Am I wrong in thinking that she should be treated like a
whole human being with as much respect as any adult would be given in the same
situations? Am I right in thinking any of these things?-=-
I can understand their hesitation, epecially on the last one. It's just not
normal.
But I understand your feelings too.
If the things were reversed and she were a schoolkid with all the rules of
traditional mainstream, would you be willing to enforce "vacation reading" and
bedtime/rising "so she'll still be able to get up on time when school
starts" and fixed mealtimes and no-candy rules and dessert only after plate cleaned
rules? Sleeping by herself rules?
Kids are resilient about different kinds of rules. Honestly, I think if it
were me I would tell her, "Their rules are very different, but theirs are
like MOST of the people in this culture. Just figure out how to deal with
them. See ya in two weeks!" and smile really big. Then I would write (on paper
writing) to the relatives on the other end and say "This isn't what she's
used to, and if you don't try to accomodate her any at all that's your option,
but the odds that she'll quit visiting as soon as she's old enough increase
every time you disregard her feelings about something. Have a nice visit!"
-=- Is the freedom we enjoy here hurting her when she visits?-=-
No.
The visits she's having will improve the freedom she enjoys when she gets
home.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
situation by his wife and that it was ridiculous to make her send an apology. -=-
-=-He started saying that his mother is also terrified of me -=-
"Terrified"? Terrified is a big emotion to invoke or claim when what they
really probably mean is nervous or concerned. Terrified means unable to
function, heart racing, fight-or-flight. How and WHY should adults in their own
homes be "terrified" about anything involving a little girl, unless they know
they're taking risks they don't need to be taking?
And that reminds me of another thing I learned about Holly within the last
two days. She has never had a nightmare.
-=-So, now he's telling me that she is terrified of me, too, that I won't
let Margaux see XH if she makes another mistake. -=-
Were the arrangments in writing?
And speaking of writing, do you have papers from the time of the divorce?
Were there separate custody hearings?
You are keeping the e-mail you wrote, right? I think you should put it in a
Word file, add dates and approximate times, and keep it safe. Maybe if it's
true there was never a custody agreement, it's time to make one and on your
terms of what's safe.
-=-Am I doing something wrong by telling her that she can call me whenever
she wants to call me? Am I wrong in thinking that she should be able to eat
when she's hungry? Am I wrong in thinking that she should be treated like a
whole human being with as much respect as any adult would be given in the same
situations? Am I right in thinking any of these things?-=-
I can understand their hesitation, epecially on the last one. It's just not
normal.
But I understand your feelings too.
If the things were reversed and she were a schoolkid with all the rules of
traditional mainstream, would you be willing to enforce "vacation reading" and
bedtime/rising "so she'll still be able to get up on time when school
starts" and fixed mealtimes and no-candy rules and dessert only after plate cleaned
rules? Sleeping by herself rules?
Kids are resilient about different kinds of rules. Honestly, I think if it
were me I would tell her, "Their rules are very different, but theirs are
like MOST of the people in this culture. Just figure out how to deal with
them. See ya in two weeks!" and smile really big. Then I would write (on paper
writing) to the relatives on the other end and say "This isn't what she's
used to, and if you don't try to accomodate her any at all that's your option,
but the odds that she'll quit visiting as soon as she's old enough increase
every time you disregard her feelings about something. Have a nice visit!"
-=- Is the freedom we enjoy here hurting her when she visits?-=-
No.
The visits she's having will improve the freedom she enjoys when she gets
home.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/31/2004 12:48:05 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
ms_fausey@... writes:
I think he is considering this and I've told him we'll do all we can to
accomodate him here. My dh and I are willing to stay at a nearby hotel if he'd
like to stay in the house and he can use one of our cars if he wants to.
-------------
If you can afford that, get THEM the hotel room. Several reasons: they'll
feel vacationish and will be more pleasant. If they're at your house, there
will be stress for all involved. Let them use someone else's bathroom, and
not have to find your silverware drawer or have an opinion on how you keep
your cabinets.
And if the hotel has a pool and restaurant, Margaux will have fun going
there to hang out with them.
-=-I think the next time she visits, I'll just drive her there and stay in a
nearby hotel. Then I can be with her doing things when Craig is not
available. I should have done that this time. There was really nothing stopping me
from doing that. What's wrong with me?!! (rhetorical) -=-
That's a good idea too! And she can swim in the pool while her dad's at
work. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ms_fausey@... writes:
I think he is considering this and I've told him we'll do all we can to
accomodate him here. My dh and I are willing to stay at a nearby hotel if he'd
like to stay in the house and he can use one of our cars if he wants to.
-------------
If you can afford that, get THEM the hotel room. Several reasons: they'll
feel vacationish and will be more pleasant. If they're at your house, there
will be stress for all involved. Let them use someone else's bathroom, and
not have to find your silverware drawer or have an opinion on how you keep
your cabinets.
And if the hotel has a pool and restaurant, Margaux will have fun going
there to hang out with them.
-=-I think the next time she visits, I'll just drive her there and stay in a
nearby hotel. Then I can be with her doing things when Craig is not
available. I should have done that this time. There was really nothing stopping me
from doing that. What's wrong with me?!! (rhetorical) -=-
That's a good idea too! And she can swim in the pool while her dad's at
work. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
queenjane555
> Kids are resilient about different kinds of rules. Honestly, II agree with this. Seamus goes to visit his father periodically
>think if it were me I would tell her, "Their rules are very
>different, but theirs are like MOST of the people in this
>culture. Just figure out how to deal with them. "
(about once a month for a few days, sometimes a week). I have found
that my worrying about what was going on, and making a big deal
about it, was waaay more stressful to him than what i thought they
were "doing to him". I think ultimately kids just want their parents
to get along, so if you have to put up with less-than-idylic
circumstances in order to keep the peace, that might be a good trade-
off.
We went through a situation in which seamus' paternal g.mother was
always bashing homeschooling (specifically unschooling)to him,
trying to sign him up for tutoring when he was down there, giving
him all this "educational" crap he wasnt interested in, and
generally being a meddling irritating woman. My reaction to that
turned the situation into one that was larger than it needed to be,
and i ended up sending seamus with a bunch of (verbal)rules (for his
father and any other family member)that i think made his father feel
less like a parent and more like a babysitter, and yes, i think they
were "terrified" (overreaction IMO)that if they didnt tow the line,
i'd cut off contact.
I've decided in the past couple of weeks that the stress isnt worth
it, and that short of them abusing seamus or doing something like
enrolling him in school, that its up to seamus and his father to
figure out their relationship, apart from me. (He is 8 yo btw.)
They'll have to do that eventually anyway.
It helps to have a kid that is pretty good at being able to weigh
the pros and cons of articulating his desires/needs, and sucking it
up and going along with the program. Seamus does a good job of
knowing what his nonnegotiables are (won't go to sleep in a dark
room, alone, without a tv or videogame to keep him company, or a
bedtime story) versus stupid stuff he puts up with to make the other
person feel better (letting grandma buy him educational computer
games or toys and letting her comments slide.)
I also have been trying really hard to not quiz my son when he gets
back on "what did they say? What did you do? where did you sleep?
How much did your dad work? Did grandma say anything about me or
about HSing??" He REALLY hates it, he knows i am just fishing for
what they did "wrong" and i think it somehow taints the fun they
have together. If someone really wrong was going on, i'm confident
he'd let me know. The thing my son hates more than anything (more
than an enforced bedtime or weird food issues or staying with
various babysitter friends instead of dad)is when we disagree/fight
no matter how "nicely" we do it, no matter how much i say its
just "a discussion."
One problem i have is sending seamus down to his dad's (four hours
by car)with clothes, toys, etc and he comes back with much of it
missing. Like the gameboy charger i had to replace, or the shoes, or
underwear or whatever. This time i wrote a list of what i was
sending so they can refer to it before they left to come back (they
didnt, of course!)Seamus' dad was so *scared* (he's a little afraid
of me i think!)when he admitted they had lost one of the Gameboy
Videos, and was digging in his pocket to pay me for it. Seamus
looked at me with eyes that basically were saying "Please dont make
it a big deal!!" and even said HE'D pay to replace the game. They
both looked like two little boys waiting to be punished by their
mom. So i took a breath and said "Hey no big deal! Mistakes
happen...don't worry about! They're really easy to lose anyway,
theyre so small!" Sighs of relief all around.
That was all probably too much info but hopefully will be helpful to
someone. The thing i keep trying to remind myself when seamus'
father drives me nuts is that they will (hopefully)find their own
way, and that if his dad is making mistakes, seamus will eventually
figure it out. I can, of course offer suggestions, reading material,
whatever but ultimately i am the one choosing this lifestyle
(unschooling, mindful parenting), not him, its not my job to change
him, and that seamus is smart/aware enough to figure it all out,
ultimately.
Katherine
Nichole Fausey-Khosraviani
----- Original Message -----
From: tuckervill2@...
>>>>>You should have said, "Okay, then you will let Margeaux do *anything* she
wants while she's there, and you will stay home with her on vacation for at
least one week while she's there, and you will find someone more child-friendly
to watch her while you work."<<<<
I did try that long ago, and he simply refused to look for someone else. I have encouraged him to take vacation when Margaux is with him. He usually tries to take long weekends, but that's all.
>>>You absolutely did the right thing by giving her a cell phone and
encouraging her to call any time. However, I understand how the other adults might
feel that you're spying on them. That Margeaux is "tattling" when she calls.
Still, she should have the freedom to call you whenever she wants. <<<
That's going to remain a hard one for them, even when I go to PA *with* Margaux. She'll still be able to call me whenever she wants to call me.
>>> but maybe you
should make arrangements to be in the area while Margeaux visits her father.<<<
Yes, that's what I'll do from now on, whenever I'm able, and I should always be able.
>>>For Margeaux's sake, I think I'd definitely consider moving close enough
that she didn't have to take a plane to get there. Like, within an hour's
drive.<<<
No, can't do that for many reasons, but I'm willing to be more flexible with traveling to PA to be with her when he cannot be.
>>>>Here's where you get a scolding: Aren't you familiar with your own custody
agreement? Do you have the papers? Have you read them? You're just
believing what he tells you? Know your rights so you can defend them.<<<<
When we were divorcing, we had to go to a four-hour seminar on custody agreements. I'm thinking that XH is right and we don't have a formal/legal custody agreement. I am taking Sandra's advice and moving ahead with making one now, on my terms. Thank you so much for writing. I really appreciate your insight.
Nichole
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nichole Fausey-Khosraviani
----- Original Message -----
From: gailbrocop@...
>>>I wanted to share what has worked for us and perhaps it will give you some
ideas. <<<<
Wow, that's awesome. XH and I usually are very amicable, until it involves his wife and in-laws.
>>> It
sounds like your XH respects your daughter and wants to do what is best for
her. <<<
Yes, he does, and that will make working something out where I'm actually physically involved easier. I'm thankful for that.
>>>>
I think you are doing exactly the right thing by examining all the different
possibilities. It may be doing something others think is weird (He's stays
next door with your mother and you all have Christmas dinner together!! :-)
but I've learned just to ignore all that.
<<<<
Weird is fine with me. :o)
>>>I'm sending along many hugs and good wishes. I think your daughter is very
lucky to have you for a mom.
Gail<<<
Thank you, Gail. I will call upon you in the future if/when other problems arise regarding XH and his family. You're a valuable resource. Thank you very much for sharing your experience with me.
Nichole
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nichole Fausey-Khosraviani
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
>>>>"Terrified"? Terrified is a big emotion to invoke or claim when what they
really probably mean is nervous or concerned. Terrified means unable to
function, heart racing, fight-or-flight. How and WHY should adults in their own
homes be "terrified" about anything involving a little girl, unless they know
they're taking risks they don't need to be taking?<<<<
Maybe he had them terrified, but I don't see it really. He did sound serious, however. I know his mother quite well and she could win Nobel prize for worrying. So, perhaps she has been worrying more than usual. I don't know.
-=-So, now he's telling me that she is terrified of me, too, that I won't
let Margaux see XH if she makes another mistake. -=-
>>>>Were the arrangments in writing?<<<<<
No, apparently they were not. He says he has no custody papers and says that if I do, he'd like to see them. I don't have any. I only have the divorce decree and the the document about insurance and child support.
>>Were there separate custody hearings? <<
No, there were no custody hearings. When we were divorcing, I asked XH if I could move to Montana and he agreed. There has never been a formal custody agreement. My memory is foggy, and when I told him what I thought to be our agreement, he said that that is the general agreement when people are getting along. As long as everything is friendly, there need not be a formal custody hearing. I believe that the custody agreement now would fall under Texas state law.
>>You are keeping the e-mail you wrote, right? I think you should put it in a
Word file, add dates and approximate times, and keep it safe. Maybe if it's
true there was never a custody agreement, it's time to make one and on your
terms of what's safe.<<
Yes, I've saved every communication we've ever had in writing. I encourage XH to do email communications more often that telephone. This usually works well, until it's time for a visit.
>>> Then I would write (on paper
writing) to the relatives on the other end and say "This isn't what she's
used to, and if you don't try to accomodate her any at all that's your option,
but the odds that she'll quit visiting as soon as she's old enough increase
every time you disregard her feelings about something. Have a nice visit!"<<<
Great idea.
Thanks, Sandra.
Nichole
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nichole Fausey-Khosraviani
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Need advice on visitation situation.
In a message dated 12/31/2004 12:48:05 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
ms_fausey@... writes:
I think he is considering this and I've told him we'll do all we can to
accomodate him here. My dh and I are willing to stay at a nearby hotel if he'd
like to stay in the house and he can use one of our cars if he wants to.
-------------
If you can afford that, get THEM the hotel room. Several reasons: they'll
feel vacationish and will be more pleasant. If they're at your house, there
will be stress for all involved. Let them use someone else's bathroom, and
not have to find your silverware drawer or have an opinion on how you keep
your cabinets.
And if the hotel has a pool and restaurant, Margaux will have fun going
there to hang out with them.<<<<<<<<<<<
I spoke with my husband about this and he agrees this would be better for them. In the summer, we can put them in the Hilton for $25/day through Priceline. Cool. Great idea.
-=-I think the next time she visits, I'll just drive her there and stay in a
nearby hotel. Then I can be with her doing things when Craig is not
available. I should have done that this time. There was really nothing stopping me
from doing that. What's wrong with me?!! (rhetorical) -=-
That's a good idea too! And she can swim in the pool while her dad's at
work. <g>
Sandra<<<<<<<<<
I talked with M about this already, and she's excited about it. I'm sure this will improve things 100%. We can meander our way to PA and meander our way back to Texas and have fun all the while. I can even take my husband's laptop with us. It'll be good.
I really want to thank you and everyone who responded and helped me to think through this situation. I really appreciate all the advice I get here, and not just for the things I post about, but for so much of the time when I just sit back and read. Wonderful people here. Thank you all very much.
Nichole
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/1/2005 7:17:13 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
ms_fausey@... writes:
I only have the divorce decree and the the document about insurance and
child support.
-=- I only have the divorce decree and the the document about insurance and
child support.
-=-
Maybe it's in there. Maybe there's a default answer, like if he's paying
child support it's because you have custody.
-=-There has never been a formal custody agreement. My memory is foggy, and
when I told him what I thought to be our agreement, he said that that is the
general agreement when people are getting along. As long as everything is
friendly, there need not be a formal custody hearing. =-
That doesn't sound right to me. Could be, but someone has to be the legal
custodial parent, who could sign for surgery or whatever.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ms_fausey@... writes:
I only have the divorce decree and the the document about insurance and
child support.
-=- I only have the divorce decree and the the document about insurance and
child support.
-=-
Maybe it's in there. Maybe there's a default answer, like if he's paying
child support it's because you have custody.
-=-There has never been a formal custody agreement. My memory is foggy, and
when I told him what I thought to be our agreement, he said that that is the
general agreement when people are getting along. As long as everything is
friendly, there need not be a formal custody hearing. =-
That doesn't sound right to me. Could be, but someone has to be the legal
custodial parent, who could sign for surgery or whatever.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nichole Fausey-Khosraviani
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
-=- I only have the divorce decree and the the document about insurance and
child support.
-=-
Maybe it's in there. Maybe there's a default answer, like if he's paying
child support it's because you have custody. <<<
Well, it does say that the child, will reside with me and that XH has to pay $175/month child support and maintain child's health insurance for as long as he is working with his then-current employer. It states nothing about visitation.
He paid that amount for the first year and then increased it every year since then. He has also changed employers and still keeps Margaux on his insurance even though she is covered by ours.
I vaguely remember there being a pack of stuff I received after the 4-hour long custody seminar, but I'm sure I do not have it now. I wonder if I could write to PA and ask about it, or maybe I could find it on the net. Yes, I'll do a net search and see if the requirements have changed. Hmmm.
>>>That doesn't sound right to me. Could be, but someone has to be the legal
custodial parent, who could sign for surgery or whatever.
Sandra<<<
Right. I do remember thinking a very long time ago that if she needed an operation, I'd have to get ahold of him, and he used to let me know when he was traveling for business or going on vacation. Hmmm... yes, I better get this sorted out. Thanks.
Nichole
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/1/05 11:49:29 PM, ms_fausey@... writes:
<< Right. I do remember thinking a very long time ago that if she needed
an operation, I'd have to get ahold of him, and he used to let me know when he
was traveling for business or going on vacation. >>
That would be joint custody.
Good luck straigtening it out, but don't push too hard because if he has
voluntarily upped his child support, he's being angelic as such things go, and you
don't want to rock THAT boat.
Sandra
<< Right. I do remember thinking a very long time ago that if she needed
an operation, I'd have to get ahold of him, and he used to let me know when he
was traveling for business or going on vacation. >>
That would be joint custody.
Good luck straigtening it out, but don't push too hard because if he has
voluntarily upped his child support, he's being angelic as such things go, and you
don't want to rock THAT boat.
Sandra
Cyndi
Hi Nichole:
Sounds to me like YOU have joint legal/sole physical, which is
the "standard" arrangement in the majority of divorce cases. Father
does not have custody, but has visitation as determined by the court
(either "ordered" or by agreement of the parents). Your ex could
not have joint physical (commonly referred to as joint custody),
which is only granted about 17% of the time anyway, as he is not
even in the same state as her. Even if by some chance he was awarded
joint custody in the original divorce decree, he defaulted on it
when he left state, which is more or less how the court will see
it. So it sounds like HE has joint legal with visitation.
Most states require that the care and custody of a minor child be
settled before granting a divorce, so I'm pretty sure that you DO
HAVE a legal custody agreement somewhere. It should be on record
someplace....probably in the branch of the court (family services)
that enforces child support. You should probably go check out and
copy your public record...it's a good idea...I found a lot of
discrepancies between what I thought I was entitled, what we worked
out with the lawyers, and what was actually recorded (like
orthodontic care was recorded as optometric care, now I'm paying for
braces). Often, someone in family services will be able to advise
you about simple legal matters or where to find the information
you're looking for. I cannot imagine that a divorce would be
granted with a minor child without a custodial order - even with
the "new age" divorces where couples writes all their own terms, the
state still has legal responsibility to make sure the child is cared
for, so there's only so much flexibility that most states will allow
in divorce agreements with children...there are basic guidelines
that must be adhered to, like determination of care and custody.
As far as the vacation/family issues with your dd, your issues all
fall under his rights for visitation. According to visitation
agreements in MA, my ex is not supposed to leave my children in the
care of anyone else without my consent. A lot of dads don't really
understand what visitation is and leave children with extended
family or sitters, or cop the attitude that this is their time with
the child and the mom doesn't have say during their time.
Visitation is the CHILDS time to visit and enjoy the company of
their PARENT. So when my ex (who is not a bad guy either) started
leaving my dd's willy-nilly with sitters and questionable extended
family on a regular basis, I had to act on things. I spoke to him,
he told me that since we had "JOINT" custody (we didn't), he could
make those decisions....well, my lawyer explained to him that joint
LEGAL cannot make CUSTODIAL care decisions (joint legal is not joint
custody) and that technically he is supposed to be supervising the
child at all times.
It stunk to have to do that...get a lawyer involved...but it's 100%
better now that he understands what his responsibility is. You have
to work out all the gray areas that are causing issues between the
two of you as parents in order for the child to feel safe and
comfortable. Unfortunately that can involve lawyers.
What kind of bothered me reading your posts was that xh flies dd out
to another state for vacation and then leaves her with sitters or
step-in-laws. If it's not on a frequent basis, then why isn't he
taking the time off from work...he must have vacation time...maybe
he should plan to be there 100% for her on the years he takes her
and if he's not, don't agree to let your daughter go! It seems kind
of pointless to bring her out to another state, drop her off with
other people, have her be all upset and calling you all the time,
everyone fighting and disagreeing in front of your dd, just to see
her for a couple hours after work?
Well, good luck...hope you can work things out.
Cyndi
Sounds to me like YOU have joint legal/sole physical, which is
the "standard" arrangement in the majority of divorce cases. Father
does not have custody, but has visitation as determined by the court
(either "ordered" or by agreement of the parents). Your ex could
not have joint physical (commonly referred to as joint custody),
which is only granted about 17% of the time anyway, as he is not
even in the same state as her. Even if by some chance he was awarded
joint custody in the original divorce decree, he defaulted on it
when he left state, which is more or less how the court will see
it. So it sounds like HE has joint legal with visitation.
Most states require that the care and custody of a minor child be
settled before granting a divorce, so I'm pretty sure that you DO
HAVE a legal custody agreement somewhere. It should be on record
someplace....probably in the branch of the court (family services)
that enforces child support. You should probably go check out and
copy your public record...it's a good idea...I found a lot of
discrepancies between what I thought I was entitled, what we worked
out with the lawyers, and what was actually recorded (like
orthodontic care was recorded as optometric care, now I'm paying for
braces). Often, someone in family services will be able to advise
you about simple legal matters or where to find the information
you're looking for. I cannot imagine that a divorce would be
granted with a minor child without a custodial order - even with
the "new age" divorces where couples writes all their own terms, the
state still has legal responsibility to make sure the child is cared
for, so there's only so much flexibility that most states will allow
in divorce agreements with children...there are basic guidelines
that must be adhered to, like determination of care and custody.
As far as the vacation/family issues with your dd, your issues all
fall under his rights for visitation. According to visitation
agreements in MA, my ex is not supposed to leave my children in the
care of anyone else without my consent. A lot of dads don't really
understand what visitation is and leave children with extended
family or sitters, or cop the attitude that this is their time with
the child and the mom doesn't have say during their time.
Visitation is the CHILDS time to visit and enjoy the company of
their PARENT. So when my ex (who is not a bad guy either) started
leaving my dd's willy-nilly with sitters and questionable extended
family on a regular basis, I had to act on things. I spoke to him,
he told me that since we had "JOINT" custody (we didn't), he could
make those decisions....well, my lawyer explained to him that joint
LEGAL cannot make CUSTODIAL care decisions (joint legal is not joint
custody) and that technically he is supposed to be supervising the
child at all times.
It stunk to have to do that...get a lawyer involved...but it's 100%
better now that he understands what his responsibility is. You have
to work out all the gray areas that are causing issues between the
two of you as parents in order for the child to feel safe and
comfortable. Unfortunately that can involve lawyers.
What kind of bothered me reading your posts was that xh flies dd out
to another state for vacation and then leaves her with sitters or
step-in-laws. If it's not on a frequent basis, then why isn't he
taking the time off from work...he must have vacation time...maybe
he should plan to be there 100% for her on the years he takes her
and if he's not, don't agree to let your daughter go! It seems kind
of pointless to bring her out to another state, drop her off with
other people, have her be all upset and calling you all the time,
everyone fighting and disagreeing in front of your dd, just to see
her for a couple hours after work?
Well, good luck...hope you can work things out.
Cyndi
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/2/2005 12:49:47 AM Central Standard Time,
ms_fausey@... writes:
Well, it does say that the child, will reside with me and that XH has to pay
$175/month child support and maintain child's health insurance for as long
as he is working with his then-current employer. It states nothing about
visitation.
~~~
My divorce says something like that, and then it says the noncustodial
parent will have "reasonable" visitation, to be worked out between the two of us.
That doesn't mean I have to put my kids (now grown) on a plane to see him if
I find that unreasonable.
I'd much rather visitation be flexible with the best interest of the child
in mind, than rigid and unbending without a court order. The best interest of
the child changes drastically from when they are a toddler to when they are
a teenager.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ms_fausey@... writes:
Well, it does say that the child, will reside with me and that XH has to pay
$175/month child support and maintain child's health insurance for as long
as he is working with his then-current employer. It states nothing about
visitation.
~~~
My divorce says something like that, and then it says the noncustodial
parent will have "reasonable" visitation, to be worked out between the two of us.
That doesn't mean I have to put my kids (now grown) on a plane to see him if
I find that unreasonable.
I'd much rather visitation be flexible with the best interest of the child
in mind, than rigid and unbending without a court order. The best interest of
the child changes drastically from when they are a toddler to when they are
a teenager.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nichole Fausey-Khosraviani
----- Original Message -----
From: tuckervill2@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Need advice on visitation situation.
In a message dated 1/2/2005 12:49:47 AM Central Standard Time,
ms_fausey@... writes:
Well, it does say that the child, will reside with me and that XH has to pay
$175/month child support and maintain child's health insurance for as long
as he is working with his then-current employer. It states nothing about
visitation.
~~~
My divorce says something like that, and then it says the noncustodial
parent will have "reasonable" visitation, to be worked out between the two of us.
That doesn't mean I have to put my kids (now grown) on a plane to see him if
I find that unreasonable.
I'd much rather visitation be flexible with the best interest of the child
in mind, than rigid and unbending without a court order. The best interest of
the child changes drastically from when they are a toddler to when they are
a teenager.
Karen
**************************
Thanks, Karen,
That makes a lot of sense. I'm saving all of this.
Nichole
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