Unschooling and "gifted" children
Queana
I have been on the list for the recommended couple weeks before posting,
and have been on this list in the past. I don�t believe I have ever
seen this discussed.
I realize that all children are gifted in various ways. I have children
who happen to be gifted in ways that would be considered academic or
schoolish I guess. They have always been in school. We will be
homeschooling them next year, and I am considering unschooling. I know
that it is my responsibility to expose them to things that they are
interested in, or that I think they might become interested in. I
already know many of their interests and passions, since they have
taught themselves most of what they know anyway; they certainly haven�t
learned it in school.
I wondered if there are any resources or discussion lists specifically
about unschooling academically �gifted� children, or if there is any
difference at all. I want to start preparing now, and gathering
resources, but I would like some input from others who are experienced
with this particular area. Any book recommendations?
I also wondered how I would be able to keep up with them in
an unschooling setting. For example, my 5 year old has already
exhausted my knowledge of place values (I only know up to 100
dectillion, and then googol and googol plex and I�m a math teacher by
trade lol) and counting in various languages. My 9 year old is learning
visual c++ which I can�t help with. Am I setting myself for failure? I
know I�m smart, but how can I possibly help them learn everything they
want to learn? Is it unschooling to let them have lessons that they ask
for in certain areas? My 5 year old wanted to learn Spanish so bad, so
a friend of mine is helping him learn it (I don�t know it).
Q
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and have been on this list in the past. I don�t believe I have ever
seen this discussed.
I realize that all children are gifted in various ways. I have children
who happen to be gifted in ways that would be considered academic or
schoolish I guess. They have always been in school. We will be
homeschooling them next year, and I am considering unschooling. I know
that it is my responsibility to expose them to things that they are
interested in, or that I think they might become interested in. I
already know many of their interests and passions, since they have
taught themselves most of what they know anyway; they certainly haven�t
learned it in school.
I wondered if there are any resources or discussion lists specifically
about unschooling academically �gifted� children, or if there is any
difference at all. I want to start preparing now, and gathering
resources, but I would like some input from others who are experienced
with this particular area. Any book recommendations?
I also wondered how I would be able to keep up with them in
an unschooling setting. For example, my 5 year old has already
exhausted my knowledge of place values (I only know up to 100
dectillion, and then googol and googol plex and I�m a math teacher by
trade lol) and counting in various languages. My 9 year old is learning
visual c++ which I can�t help with. Am I setting myself for failure? I
know I�m smart, but how can I possibly help them learn everything they
want to learn? Is it unschooling to let them have lessons that they ask
for in certain areas? My 5 year old wanted to learn Spanish so bad, so
a friend of mine is helping him learn it (I don�t know it).
Q
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nnylnell
> I wondered if there are any resources or discussion listsspecifically
> about unschooling academically "gifted" children . . . Anybook
recommendations?
For discussion lists, there's Tagmax:
http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/tagmax.html
It isn't a specifically unschooling list -- it's general
homeschooling, but there are definitely unschoolers on it and most
people seem to be relaxed/eclectic and unschooling-friendly. (At least
that was true the last time I was on it, a year or more ago now.)
David Albert, who wrote "And the Skylark Sings with Me" about
homeschooling (relaxed) his two "gifted" daughters, is (was?) very
active on it. That's a good book on the subject if you haven't read
it. He wrote another homeschooling book too whose name I don't recall
now.
I also recommend Lisa Rivero's "Creative Home Schooling: A resource
guide for smart families." It used to actually have the word "gifted"
in the title, but in the second edition it was taken out, whether to
appeal to a wider audience or what I don't know. It also is from a
very relaxed/eclectic viewpoint and would be a good resource guide for
an unschooling family who just wanted some ideas for finding things
their kids might be interested in doing. (You can find all these books
on Amazon if you want more info or to order them.)
> I also wondered how I would be able to keep up withthem in
> an unschooling setting. For example, my 5 year old has alreadyteacher by
> exhausted my knowledge of place values (I only know up to 100
> dectillion, and then googol and googol plex and I'm a math
> trade lol) and counting in various languages. My 9 year old islearning
> visual c++ which I can't help with.I
> know I'm smart, but how can I possibly help them learneverything they
> want to learn? Is it unschooling to let them have lessons thatthey ask
> for in certain areas? My 5 year old wanted to learn Spanish sobad, so
> a friend of mine is helping him learn it (I don't know it).If they were in school or doing school-at-home, it would be even
worse. They would have less freedom to explore their interests and
would be more constrained by a curriculum. Oh -- right, now I see that
you say they are in school now. Do they have teachers now that can
help them learn these things, or are they sitting around bored out of
their minds while their classmates do stuff they mastered years ago?
I'm guessing the latter.
Unschooling is the only option that will let your kids learn what they
want to learn, when they want to learn it. Every other educational
option is about controlling the pace and content of their learning to
a lesser or greater extent. You don't have to know everything they
want to know. Unschooling isn't about transferring the contents of
your head into theirs. It's about helping them explore the world in
the way they want to explore it. Google (the search engine, not
"googol" the amazingly high number) is your friend; so is the library.
So are all the people around you who know different stuff than you --
like your friend who speaks Spanish. If your child was dying to learn
Spanish and is enjoying the help your friend is giving him, fantastic!
If he isn't enjoying it, you can help him find another resource that
will help him. Another Spanish speaker, or a computer program, or a
trip to Mexico, or CD lessons that you both listen to in the car . . .
you can use your imagination.
Unschooling isn't about never doing "lessons" or taking classes or
doing anything that looks like something that might be done in school,
it's about kids being in control of their own lives and learning. You
are the person who can help them with the practical details of
brainstorming ways to find out what they want, providing
transportation and materials, searching for things on the computer or
library or phone book if they aren't up to it, making phone calls to
people they might not have the social skills to deal with yet, paying
for stuff :) or helping them come up with ways to finance what is not
in your budget that is important to them. It's about giving your 9
year old permission to sit for six hours straight programming C++ (if
that's what he wants) instead of making him stop and learn his
spelling words. It's about giving them the freedom and the *power* to
be themselves.
Another thing -- once you start unschooling, you will probably find it
less and less necessary to think of your kids as "gifted." It's a
label I used reluctantly when my son was in school and now just don't
feel a need for at all. It's a label like ADD that makes sense in the
context of school, where they are trying to standardize kids and
anyone who is more resistant to standardization needs to be placed (at
least mentally) in another group to make the lives of teachers and
administrators easier. All unschoolers need to worry about is letting
their kids be *themselves.* Comparing them to anyone else is not only
pointless, it's just not necessary.
What I find amazing about unschooling is the realization of how
extremely individual kids are, much more than is acknowledged in
school, where kids just tend to be thought of as "the brainy one,"
"the jock," "the artistic one." It's more likely, in my experience, to
be something like "the one who's really obsessed with really high
numbers right now and is dying to learn Spanish and watches the Star
Wars movies over and over and can sit for three hours playing with
pattern blocks but next year he'll be obsessed with marine life and be
dying to play role playing games with his older brother and read the
Tom Swift books over and over and sit around making up secret codes
for hours on end."
In other words, kids have really specific interests and needs, which
are constantly changing, and I find that it's more helpful to think in
terms of how to help them with the specifics of what they want right
now -- whether it's a way to learn Spanish or a cool computer game or
a glass of juice :) -- rather than to think in grandiose terms of
providing all the intellectual enrichment they will ever need for the
rest of their lives.
Hope this helps.
Lynn
[email protected]
I am not the best one to answer your questions, as I didn't really "get"
unschooling until about 6-12mos ago, but I will give it a shot. I do have a
son who attend grades k-5 in public school where they classified him as
"gifted", and he was placed in GATE (gifted and talented program).
In our case, we don't do anything differently because he was titled
"gifted". I also a daughter who was always "below grade level" -- and we
don't do anything differently with her. I really don't think unschooling is
about titles such as that. And actually, I can't stand even using these
titles/descriptions anymore. We literally have child-led learning in our
home and that is what we do. No labels....we just have kids who love to
learn, who are learning in everything they do. My son loves math and
history. He literally sits and watches the history channel for a couple
hours every single night. He is starting to pass me up when it comes to
math -- but that doesn't scare me. I am really not his teacher...I am a
tour guide who helps him to get where he wants to go. In this time and age,
we have the world wide web full of resources. Libraries full of books. Not
to mention all of the other ways he can learn math from our real life
situations. He has expressed an interest in taking college math courses
soon (he is 12), and I fully support that. He does appear more "scholarly"
than my daughter -- she's much more artistic than him. But that doesn't
changes what happens in our home. In our home they just live life. They
pursue what is important to them and what interests them. I just think that
when you truly see it from this simple view, the matters of being "gifted"
or not, just don't matter.
~~Brandie~~
http://www.scrapbookingwithbrandie.com
http://scrapblogging.blogspot.com
unschooling until about 6-12mos ago, but I will give it a shot. I do have a
son who attend grades k-5 in public school where they classified him as
"gifted", and he was placed in GATE (gifted and talented program).
In our case, we don't do anything differently because he was titled
"gifted". I also a daughter who was always "below grade level" -- and we
don't do anything differently with her. I really don't think unschooling is
about titles such as that. And actually, I can't stand even using these
titles/descriptions anymore. We literally have child-led learning in our
home and that is what we do. No labels....we just have kids who love to
learn, who are learning in everything they do. My son loves math and
history. He literally sits and watches the history channel for a couple
hours every single night. He is starting to pass me up when it comes to
math -- but that doesn't scare me. I am really not his teacher...I am a
tour guide who helps him to get where he wants to go. In this time and age,
we have the world wide web full of resources. Libraries full of books. Not
to mention all of the other ways he can learn math from our real life
situations. He has expressed an interest in taking college math courses
soon (he is 12), and I fully support that. He does appear more "scholarly"
than my daughter -- she's much more artistic than him. But that doesn't
changes what happens in our home. In our home they just live life. They
pursue what is important to them and what interests them. I just think that
when you truly see it from this simple view, the matters of being "gifted"
or not, just don't matter.
~~Brandie~~
http://www.scrapbookingwithbrandie.com
http://scrapblogging.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Queana" <queana7@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 12:38 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Unschooling and "gifted" children
I have been on the list for the recommended couple weeks before posting,
and have been on this list in the past. I don't believe I have ever
seen this discussed.
I realize that all children are gifted in various ways. I have children
who happen to be gifted in ways that would be considered academic or
schoolish I guess. They have always been in school. We will be
homeschooling them next year, and I am considering unschooling. I know
that it is my responsibility to expose them to things that they are
interested in, or that I think they might become interested in. I
already know many of their interests and passions, since they have
taught themselves most of what they know anyway; they certainly haven't
learned it in school.
I wondered if there are any resources or discussion lists specifically
about unschooling academically "gifted" children, or if there is any
difference at all. I want to start preparing now, and gathering
resources, but I would like some input from others who are experienced
with this particular area. Any book recommendations?
I also wondered how I would be able to keep up with them in
an unschooling setting. For example, my 5 year old has already
exhausted my knowledge of place values (I only know up to 100
dectillion, and then googol and googol plex and I'm a math teacher by
trade lol) and counting in various languages. My 9 year old is learning
visual c++ which I can't help with. Am I setting myself for failure? I
know I'm smart, but how can I possibly help them learn everything they
want to learn? Is it unschooling to let them have lessons that they ask
for in certain areas? My 5 year old wanted to learn Spanish so bad, so
a friend of mine is helping him learn it (I don't know it).
Q
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
Lars Hedbor
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: nnylnell [mailto:nnylnell@...]=20
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 7:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Unschooling and "gifted" children
(long)
friend; so is the library.
I'll put in another plug here for the Wikipedia and Wikimedia projects.
Wikipedia (www.wikipedia.org) is an organically-growing online =
encyclopedia
project, under the umbrella of the larger Wikimedia group. Wikimedia
(www.wikimedia.org) also includes textbooks, including foreign-language
texts, for unschoolers who benefit from the structure of textbooks.
An even more exciting possibility, for students of foreign languages, is
keeping up with the news in a foreign language -- just hit Google News, =
and
take your pick of localized news selections, in a wide variety of =
languages.
(Even the different English-language versions can be interesting for a =
look
at the news of the world from a viewpoint that's not always the same as
ours...)
Too, there are loads of sites out there for kids, and some of those are
available in different languages. I've not had occasion to go looking, =
but
I'd be shocked if many of those aren't also available en Espa=F1ol.=20
Similarly, C++ resources abound on the Internet - some quite structured, =
and
others much less so. It's an exciting - no, an intoxicating! - time to =
be a
self-directed learner!!
- Lars D. H. Hedbor
Oregon City, Oregon
-----Original Message-----
From: nnylnell [mailto:nnylnell@...]=20
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 7:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Unschooling and "gifted" children
(long)
>> I also wondered how I would be able to keep up with them =in
>> an unschooling setting. For example, my 5 year old has already=20learning
>> exhausted my knowledge of place values (I only know up to 100=20
>> dectillion, and then googol and googol plex and I'm a math teacher by
>> trade lol) and counting in various languages. My 9 year old is =
>> visual c++ which I can't help with. Ithey
>> know I'm smart, but how can I possibly help them learn everything =
>> want to learn? Is it unschooling to let them have lessons that they =ask
>> for in certain areas? My 5 year old wanted to learn Spanish so bad, =so
>> a friend of mine is helping him learn it (I don't know it).<snipping much useful commentary>=20
> Google (the search engine, not "googol" the amazingly high number) is =your
friend; so is the library.
I'll put in another plug here for the Wikipedia and Wikimedia projects.
Wikipedia (www.wikipedia.org) is an organically-growing online =
encyclopedia
project, under the umbrella of the larger Wikimedia group. Wikimedia
(www.wikimedia.org) also includes textbooks, including foreign-language
texts, for unschoolers who benefit from the structure of textbooks.
An even more exciting possibility, for students of foreign languages, is
keeping up with the news in a foreign language -- just hit Google News, =
and
take your pick of localized news selections, in a wide variety of =
languages.
(Even the different English-language versions can be interesting for a =
look
at the news of the world from a viewpoint that's not always the same as
ours...)
Too, there are loads of sites out there for kids, and some of those are
available in different languages. I've not had occasion to go looking, =
but
I'd be shocked if many of those aren't also available en Espa=F1ol.=20
Similarly, C++ resources abound on the Internet - some quite structured, =
and
others much less so. It's an exciting - no, an intoxicating! - time to =
be a
self-directed learner!!
- Lars D. H. Hedbor
Oregon City, Oregon
Queana
Thank you for a very thoughtful and helpful response!!
For discussion lists, there's Tagmax:
HYPERLINK
"http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/tagmax.html"http://maelstrom.stjo
hns.edu/archives/tagmax.html
I signed up for this list; thanks for referring me.
If they were in school or doing school-at-home, it would be even
worse. They would have less freedom to explore their interests and
would be more constrained by a curriculum. Oh -- right, now I see that
you say they are in school now. Do they have teachers now that can
help them learn these things, or are they sitting around bored out of
their minds while their classmates do stuff they mastered years ago?
I'm guessing the latter.
Right! This is exactly why we are quitting school. They have been in a
private school which has been better academically than the surrounding
public schools, but still very stifling and boring!
Unschooling is the only option that will let your kids learn what they
want to learn, when they want to learn it. Every other educational
option is about controlling the pace and content of their learning to
a lesser or greater extent. You don't have to know everything they
want to know. Unschooling isn't about transferring the contents of
your head into theirs. It's about helping them explore the world in
the way they want to explore it. Google (the search engine, not
"googol" the amazingly high number) is your friend; so is the library.
So are all the people around you who know different stuff than you --
like your friend who speaks Spanish. If your child was dying to learn
Spanish and is enjoying the help your friend is giving him, fantastic!
If he isn't enjoying it, you can help him find another resource that
will help him. Another Spanish speaker, or a computer program, or a
trip to Mexico, or CD lessons that you both listen to in the car . . .
you can use your imagination.
Unschooling isn't about never doing "lessons" or taking classes or
doing anything that looks like something that might be done in school,
it's about kids being in control of their own lives and learning. You
are the person who can help them with the practical details of
brainstorming ways to find out what they want, providing
transportation and materials, searching for things on the computer or
library or phone book if they aren't up to it, making phone calls to
people they might not have the social skills to deal with yet, paying
for stuff :) or helping them come up with ways to finance what is not
in your budget that is important to them. It's about giving your 9
year old permission to sit for six hours straight programming C++ (if
that's what he wants) instead of making him stop and learn his
spelling words. It's about giving them the freedom and the *power* to
be themselves.
Thanks for this! I sometimes wonder if what I envision is actually
unschooling because sometimes it can sound like I should leave them
alone entirely and let them find ways to teach themselves things that
they happen across. Obviously I would never do this but I have somehow
gotten that impression from some unschoolers. What you describe above
is exactly what I imagine life to be like next year.
Another thing -- once you start unschooling, you will probably find it
less and less necessary to think of your kids as "gifted." It's a
label I used reluctantly when my son was in school and now just don't
feel a need for at all. It's a label like ADD that makes sense in the
context of school, where they are trying to standardize kids and
anyone who is more resistant to standardization needs to be placed (at
least mentally) in another group to make the lives of teachers and
administrators easier. All unschoolers need to worry about is letting
their kids be *themselves.* Comparing them to anyone else is not only
pointless, it's just not necessary.
What I find amazing about unschooling is the realization of how
extremely individual kids are, much more than is acknowledged in
school, where kids just tend to be thought of as "the brainy one,"
"the jock," "the artistic one." It's more likely, in my experience, to
be something like "the one who's really obsessed with really high
numbers right now and is dying to learn Spanish and watches the Star
Wars movies over and over and can sit for three hours playing with
pattern blocks but next year he'll be obsessed with marine life and be
dying to play role playing games with his older brother and read the
Tom Swift books over and over and sit around making up secret codes
for hours on end."
In other words, kids have really specific interests and needs, which
are constantly changing, and I find that it's more helpful to think in
terms of how to help them with the specifics of what they want right
now -- whether it's a way to learn Spanish or a cool computer game or
a glass of juice :) -- rather than to think in grandiose terms of
providing all the intellectual enrichment they will ever need for the
rest of their lives.
Hope this helps.
Lynn
It has! Thanks again.
Q
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
For discussion lists, there's Tagmax:
HYPERLINK
"http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/tagmax.html"http://maelstrom.stjo
hns.edu/archives/tagmax.html
I signed up for this list; thanks for referring me.
If they were in school or doing school-at-home, it would be even
worse. They would have less freedom to explore their interests and
would be more constrained by a curriculum. Oh -- right, now I see that
you say they are in school now. Do they have teachers now that can
help them learn these things, or are they sitting around bored out of
their minds while their classmates do stuff they mastered years ago?
I'm guessing the latter.
Right! This is exactly why we are quitting school. They have been in a
private school which has been better academically than the surrounding
public schools, but still very stifling and boring!
Unschooling is the only option that will let your kids learn what they
want to learn, when they want to learn it. Every other educational
option is about controlling the pace and content of their learning to
a lesser or greater extent. You don't have to know everything they
want to know. Unschooling isn't about transferring the contents of
your head into theirs. It's about helping them explore the world in
the way they want to explore it. Google (the search engine, not
"googol" the amazingly high number) is your friend; so is the library.
So are all the people around you who know different stuff than you --
like your friend who speaks Spanish. If your child was dying to learn
Spanish and is enjoying the help your friend is giving him, fantastic!
If he isn't enjoying it, you can help him find another resource that
will help him. Another Spanish speaker, or a computer program, or a
trip to Mexico, or CD lessons that you both listen to in the car . . .
you can use your imagination.
Unschooling isn't about never doing "lessons" or taking classes or
doing anything that looks like something that might be done in school,
it's about kids being in control of their own lives and learning. You
are the person who can help them with the practical details of
brainstorming ways to find out what they want, providing
transportation and materials, searching for things on the computer or
library or phone book if they aren't up to it, making phone calls to
people they might not have the social skills to deal with yet, paying
for stuff :) or helping them come up with ways to finance what is not
in your budget that is important to them. It's about giving your 9
year old permission to sit for six hours straight programming C++ (if
that's what he wants) instead of making him stop and learn his
spelling words. It's about giving them the freedom and the *power* to
be themselves.
Thanks for this! I sometimes wonder if what I envision is actually
unschooling because sometimes it can sound like I should leave them
alone entirely and let them find ways to teach themselves things that
they happen across. Obviously I would never do this but I have somehow
gotten that impression from some unschoolers. What you describe above
is exactly what I imagine life to be like next year.
Another thing -- once you start unschooling, you will probably find it
less and less necessary to think of your kids as "gifted." It's a
label I used reluctantly when my son was in school and now just don't
feel a need for at all. It's a label like ADD that makes sense in the
context of school, where they are trying to standardize kids and
anyone who is more resistant to standardization needs to be placed (at
least mentally) in another group to make the lives of teachers and
administrators easier. All unschoolers need to worry about is letting
their kids be *themselves.* Comparing them to anyone else is not only
pointless, it's just not necessary.
What I find amazing about unschooling is the realization of how
extremely individual kids are, much more than is acknowledged in
school, where kids just tend to be thought of as "the brainy one,"
"the jock," "the artistic one." It's more likely, in my experience, to
be something like "the one who's really obsessed with really high
numbers right now and is dying to learn Spanish and watches the Star
Wars movies over and over and can sit for three hours playing with
pattern blocks but next year he'll be obsessed with marine life and be
dying to play role playing games with his older brother and read the
Tom Swift books over and over and sit around making up secret codes
for hours on end."
In other words, kids have really specific interests and needs, which
are constantly changing, and I find that it's more helpful to think in
terms of how to help them with the specifics of what they want right
now -- whether it's a way to learn Spanish or a cool computer game or
a glass of juice :) -- rather than to think in grandiose terms of
providing all the intellectual enrichment they will ever need for the
rest of their lives.
Hope this helps.
Lynn
It has! Thanks again.
Q
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On Dec 29, 2004, at 9:27 PM, Queana wrote:
"Just leaving them alone" is NOT unschooling!!
However - then I'd feel the need to add this, too:
"To parents I say, above all else, don't let your home become some
terrible miniature copy of the school. No lesson plans! No quizzes!
No tests! No report cards! Even leaving your kids alone would be
better; at least they could figure out some things on their own. Live
together, as well as you can; enjoy life together, as much as you can."
~John Holt
-pam
> Thanks for this! I sometimes wonder if what I envision is actuallyMaybe we need a footer at the end of EVERY post on the list -
> unschooling because sometimes it can sound like I should leave them
> alone entirely and let them find ways to teach themselves things that
> they happen across. Obviously I would never do this but I have somehow
> gotten that impression from some unschoolers. What you describe above
> is exactly what I imagine life to be like next year.
"Just leaving them alone" is NOT unschooling!!
However - then I'd feel the need to add this, too:
"To parents I say, above all else, don't let your home become some
terrible miniature copy of the school. No lesson plans! No quizzes!
No tests! No report cards! Even leaving your kids alone would be
better; at least they could figure out some things on their own. Live
together, as well as you can; enjoy life together, as much as you can."
~John Holt
-pam
pam sorooshian
I suggest anybody getting started unschooling should read "The Book of
Learning and Forgetting" by Frank Smith.
Not about homeschooling/unschooling - about learning.
-pam
Learning and Forgetting" by Frank Smith.
Not about homeschooling/unschooling - about learning.
-pam
On Dec 30, 2004, at 8:14 AM, pam sorooshian wrote:
>> Thanks for this! I sometimes wonder if what I envision is actually
>> unschooling because sometimes it can sound like I should leave them
>> alone entirely and let them find ways to teach themselves things that
>> they happen across. Obviously I would never do this but I have
>> somehow
>> gotten that impression from some unschoolers. What you describe above
>> is exactly what I imagine life to be like next year.
Gia Omari
Hello everyone,
i am very upset right now and need to get some input
as to how to handle this situation. Long story short:
My husband got a job offer in NYC at the beginning of
the semester that I went back to grad school with a
baby and a three year old so we moved in with my older
brother (also in grad school) and dad temporarily.
Well my dad is the authoritarian type ( I grew up in
divorced household) and he comments or sneers at the
way I deal with my three year old. he says he is on
his way to being out of control and he "out thinks "
me (OUCH!!!! THat's nasty), but anyway, Today, the
baby had been up all night teething and I was tired,
but fixed the kids breakfast and my oldest Apsu (3.5
yrs) said "how do ya do?" (a little game that we play
and I said just fine how do you do? My dad interjects
with I do just fine ( trying to make a joke.... well
ds doesn't like jokes and my dad interrupted him so he
said "excuse me pop I was talking to mamma" well my
dad started on this lecture about how rude he was and
how when Apsu wants to talk to him he is NOT going to
want to talk. My dad interrupts Apsu constantly and
sometimes Apsu defends himself by saying "hey I was
talking etc."
My question is Is my child out of control? Is he
being disrespectful? When we go out if an adult
speaks to him and he feels shy or doesn't like the
person he won't talk to him... this is such a battle
for me because in the African American community it is
NOT acceptable at all and so most of my parenting
choices are seen as me trying to be something
else-they mean other than black... This opinion is
held by intelligent people yet they cannot comprehend
that even at three Apsu is very perceptive and knows
he has rights and wants them to be respected too.
I really could use advice on how to deal with my
father because I have always had the try to please,
never been good- enough, try to prove him wrong
relationship.
Sorry in adavnce for the spelling- I need to take a
shower before the baby wakes up and I didn't spell
check .
Thanks,
Gia and the family!
__________________________________
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i am very upset right now and need to get some input
as to how to handle this situation. Long story short:
My husband got a job offer in NYC at the beginning of
the semester that I went back to grad school with a
baby and a three year old so we moved in with my older
brother (also in grad school) and dad temporarily.
Well my dad is the authoritarian type ( I grew up in
divorced household) and he comments or sneers at the
way I deal with my three year old. he says he is on
his way to being out of control and he "out thinks "
me (OUCH!!!! THat's nasty), but anyway, Today, the
baby had been up all night teething and I was tired,
but fixed the kids breakfast and my oldest Apsu (3.5
yrs) said "how do ya do?" (a little game that we play
and I said just fine how do you do? My dad interjects
with I do just fine ( trying to make a joke.... well
ds doesn't like jokes and my dad interrupted him so he
said "excuse me pop I was talking to mamma" well my
dad started on this lecture about how rude he was and
how when Apsu wants to talk to him he is NOT going to
want to talk. My dad interrupts Apsu constantly and
sometimes Apsu defends himself by saying "hey I was
talking etc."
My question is Is my child out of control? Is he
being disrespectful? When we go out if an adult
speaks to him and he feels shy or doesn't like the
person he won't talk to him... this is such a battle
for me because in the African American community it is
NOT acceptable at all and so most of my parenting
choices are seen as me trying to be something
else-they mean other than black... This opinion is
held by intelligent people yet they cannot comprehend
that even at three Apsu is very perceptive and knows
he has rights and wants them to be respected too.
I really could use advice on how to deal with my
father because I have always had the try to please,
never been good- enough, try to prove him wrong
relationship.
Sorry in adavnce for the spelling- I need to take a
shower before the baby wakes up and I didn't spell
check .
Thanks,
Gia and the family!
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/30/2004 12:05:46 PM Central Standard Time,
giamhamilton@... writes:
My dad interjects
with I do just fine ( trying to make a joke.... well
ds doesn't like jokes and my dad interrupted him so he
said "excuse me pop I was talking to mamma" well my
dad started on this lecture about how rude he was and
how when Apsu wants to talk to him he is NOT going to
want to talk. My dad interrupts Apsu constantly and
sometimes Apsu defends himself by saying "hey I was
talking etc."
~~~
I hate to foster the idea of bickering, but I think you should defend your
child when he so politely says, "Excuse me..." Tell dad that Apsu will learn
his manners by demonstration, and ask him not to interrupt the child. Apsu
seems to have pretty good manners, to me.
OTOH, maybe Pop wants to play the game, too, and he feels left out. Apsu
will never recognize Pop as part of the game if Pop doesn't behave
respectfully, though. Perhaps a private talk with Pop about it, if he's willing, is in
order.
I think a lot of little kids don't like jokes because they think they're
being mocked. Three-year-olds don't understand a lot of jokes, and the
perceptive 3 yo, such as Apsu, who doesn't understand the joke, but knows Pop has
little respect for his ideas, might just take offense at the joke. What he
really objects to is that Pop doesn't respect him.
Pop needs to earn some respect from Apsu, I think. He's a grown up. Surely
he can swallow his pride a little and recognize the boy's need for respect.
Good luck,
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
giamhamilton@... writes:
My dad interjects
with I do just fine ( trying to make a joke.... well
ds doesn't like jokes and my dad interrupted him so he
said "excuse me pop I was talking to mamma" well my
dad started on this lecture about how rude he was and
how when Apsu wants to talk to him he is NOT going to
want to talk. My dad interrupts Apsu constantly and
sometimes Apsu defends himself by saying "hey I was
talking etc."
~~~
I hate to foster the idea of bickering, but I think you should defend your
child when he so politely says, "Excuse me..." Tell dad that Apsu will learn
his manners by demonstration, and ask him not to interrupt the child. Apsu
seems to have pretty good manners, to me.
OTOH, maybe Pop wants to play the game, too, and he feels left out. Apsu
will never recognize Pop as part of the game if Pop doesn't behave
respectfully, though. Perhaps a private talk with Pop about it, if he's willing, is in
order.
I think a lot of little kids don't like jokes because they think they're
being mocked. Three-year-olds don't understand a lot of jokes, and the
perceptive 3 yo, such as Apsu, who doesn't understand the joke, but knows Pop has
little respect for his ideas, might just take offense at the joke. What he
really objects to is that Pop doesn't respect him.
Pop needs to earn some respect from Apsu, I think. He's a grown up. Surely
he can swallow his pride a little and recognize the boy's need for respect.
Good luck,
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gia Omari
Karen,
Thank you, that was very insightful. I don't know if
I mentioned that we live here and my dad has the last
word about everything so I spend a lot of time out of
the house with my boys. He wants to be involved, but
doesn't relate well to him although you can't tell him
that. I apprecaite your suggestions about including
pop and explaining that we are Apsu's example. I hope
it helps without starting World War III KWIM?
Thanks again for the speedy response.
Gia
--- tuckervill2@... wrote:
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com
Thank you, that was very insightful. I don't know if
I mentioned that we live here and my dad has the last
word about everything so I spend a lot of time out of
the house with my boys. He wants to be involved, but
doesn't relate well to him although you can't tell him
that. I apprecaite your suggestions about including
pop and explaining that we are Apsu's example. I hope
it helps without starting World War III KWIM?
Thanks again for the speedy response.
Gia
--- tuckervill2@... wrote:
>__________________________________
> In a message dated 12/30/2004 12:05:46 PM Central
> Standard Time,
> giamhamilton@... writes:
>
> My dad interjects
> with I do just fine ( trying to make a joke.... well
> ds doesn't like jokes and my dad interrupted him so
> he
> said "excuse me pop I was talking to mamma" well
> my
> dad started on this lecture about how rude he was
> and
> how when Apsu wants to talk to him he is NOT going
> to
> want to talk. My dad interrupts Apsu constantly and
> sometimes Apsu defends himself by saying "hey I was
> talking etc."
>
>
>
> ~~~
>
> I hate to foster the idea of bickering, but I think
> you should defend your
> child when he so politely says, "Excuse me..." Tell
> dad that Apsu will learn
> his manners by demonstration, and ask him not to
> interrupt the child. Apsu
> seems to have pretty good manners, to me.
>
> OTOH, maybe Pop wants to play the game, too, and he
> feels left out. Apsu
> will never recognize Pop as part of the game if Pop
> doesn't behave
> respectfully, though. Perhaps a private talk with
> Pop about it, if he's willing, is in
> order.
>
> I think a lot of little kids don't like jokes
> because they think they're
> being mocked. Three-year-olds don't understand a
> lot of jokes, and the
> perceptive 3 yo, such as Apsu, who doesn't
> understand the joke, but knows Pop has
> little respect for his ideas, might just take
> offense at the joke. What he
> really objects to is that Pop doesn't respect him.
>
> Pop needs to earn some respect from Apsu, I think.
> He's a grown up. Surely
> he can swallow his pride a little and recognize the
> boy's need for respect.
>
> Good luck,
> Karen
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com
Queana
-----Original Message-----
From: pam sorooshian [mailto:pamsoroosh@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 8:14 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: .RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Unschooling and "gifted"
children (long)
Maybe we need a footer at the end of EVERY post on the list -
"Just leaving them alone" is NOT unschooling!!
However - then I'd feel the need to add this, too:
"To parents I say, above all else, don't let your home become some
terrible miniature copy of the school. No lesson plans! No quizzes!
No tests! No report cards! Even leaving your kids alone would be
better; at least they could figure out some things on their own. Live
together, as well as you can; enjoy life together, as much as you can."
~John Holt
-pam
[***] I know you're speaking kind of tongue in cheek here, but it might
be helpful to hear a bit more often. I remember when I used to read the
tcs (Taking Children Seriously) list for a few years, the mantra was
repeated frequently that tcs was very different from neglect, that
typical parenting is often neglect, and that tcs is extremely hands on.
Even though this is not tcs, it seems pretty similar in many ways. I
know the reaction to people who want to control their child's every
waking moment is to tell them to leave the poor kid alone. Let them
watch tv, let them play games, etc. I'm probably not the only one who
has gotten the impression that unschooling meant much less hands on
parenting than is actually true. It seems to me that unschooling would
require more time and dedication from the parent even than traditional
school-at-home, since that has time boundaries and specific objectives
and assessments. In reading the articles on the unschooling.com website
it is obvious that this type of approach (hands on, brain on) is
recommended, but sometimes in just reading the message boards and email
lists it can seem that a hands-off approach *is* unschooling. Thanks
for understanding what I was trying to say!
Q
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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: pam sorooshian [mailto:pamsoroosh@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 8:14 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: .RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Unschooling and "gifted"
children (long)
Maybe we need a footer at the end of EVERY post on the list -
"Just leaving them alone" is NOT unschooling!!
However - then I'd feel the need to add this, too:
"To parents I say, above all else, don't let your home become some
terrible miniature copy of the school. No lesson plans! No quizzes!
No tests! No report cards! Even leaving your kids alone would be
better; at least they could figure out some things on their own. Live
together, as well as you can; enjoy life together, as much as you can."
~John Holt
-pam
[***] I know you're speaking kind of tongue in cheek here, but it might
be helpful to hear a bit more often. I remember when I used to read the
tcs (Taking Children Seriously) list for a few years, the mantra was
repeated frequently that tcs was very different from neglect, that
typical parenting is often neglect, and that tcs is extremely hands on.
Even though this is not tcs, it seems pretty similar in many ways. I
know the reaction to people who want to control their child's every
waking moment is to tell them to leave the poor kid alone. Let them
watch tv, let them play games, etc. I'm probably not the only one who
has gotten the impression that unschooling meant much less hands on
parenting than is actually true. It seems to me that unschooling would
require more time and dedication from the parent even than traditional
school-at-home, since that has time boundaries and specific objectives
and assessments. In reading the articles on the unschooling.com website
it is obvious that this type of approach (hands on, brain on) is
recommended, but sometimes in just reading the message boards and email
lists it can seem that a hands-off approach *is* unschooling. Thanks
for understanding what I was trying to say!
Q
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.824 / Virus Database: 562 - Release Date: 12/28/2004
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
** Maybe we need a footer at the end of EVERY post on the list -
"Just leaving them alone" is NOT unschooling!!
However - then I'd feel the need to add this, too:
"To parents I say, above all else, don't let your home become some
terrible miniature copy of the school. No lesson plans! No quizzes!**
I'd like to discuss the gray area between the extreme of neglect and the
extreme of overcontrol. I tend to be soooo concerned about avoiding
being "controlling" that I may swing too far to the other end. (I
personally hate to be told what to do, and my son and my dad are very
similar in that respect, so perhaps not telling them what to do is a
sane and sensible strategy. But maybe it isn't.)
Is there a fine line up the middle, between the extremes, that I can walk?
I think that when people have come onto this list (in the dim past) with
very controlling school ideas, we tended to tell them -- "Stop it". And
that isn't always sufficient to tell them what to "start". I've done a
lot of stopping, a lot of not-meddling, but I don't initiate much, and I
wonder if I've gone too far and am actually not contributing what I
should to the family. (I've tentatively planned a lot of playdates for
January, but haven't sat down and penciled in museum field trips to meet
an educational quota. But, I might find it comforting if I did.)
Just following the lead of my child is probably not enough
participation. It certainly feels uncomfortable when the child isn't
bubbling over with suggestions, and spends big chunks of time on the
couch. But for me, when hearing the advice not to push a school
curriculum, I tend to overreact and think that I shouldn't promote
anything, unless my child is already interested in it.
Is it wrong or unhelpful to strew things that are very schooly, or even
a little bit schooly? Is it reasonable to promote nonfiction as a
balance to lots and lots of fantasy and gaming? Or is that just
wrongheaded?
Worries about math (natch), and science facts and handwriting and
geography are nibbling me. Most of my friends with kids the same age
are eclectic homeschoolers, with daughters who are brilliantly bookish.
(One nine year old reads Shakespeare, and the others cut from the same
cloth. It's unreasonable to expect him to be just like them, but they
are the kids that I hear about most.)
Philosophically I'm trying to answer the question "Should I row the boat
more, or should I just let it drift downstream?" Are there other
choices? Should he be holding his own (metaphorical) oars? (He's ten
going on eleven.)
We've talked, in the past, that the middle years can be discouraging in
unschooling. If the kid isn't passionately pursuing something that
looks braggably academic, then he can seem "behind" his schooled and
homeschooled peers who are being pushed into learning. But his
enthusiasm for learning and his ownership of his own mind are being kept
alive, and that's important to me. I'm just not feeling very
comfortable with "behindness" and seeing such slow progress on things
like handwriting, I'm having a hard time believing that what he needs
will eventually develop.
If this feels too abstract and self-indulgent, then feel free to let it go.
I think moving two years ago has been a setback for us. There is only a
tiny support group here in town, so we aren't swept along into
activities because our friends are doing them. For me, going to the
park alone and going to the museum alone aren't any fun.
What can I do that is positive? Is this process dependent on me doing
more? Or is "being" more important than "doing"? Would encouraging him
to practice handwriting directly, or indirectly, be harmful, beneficial,
neutral, or a waste of money? I feel like I should be able to figure
this out by myself.
Betsy
"Just leaving them alone" is NOT unschooling!!
However - then I'd feel the need to add this, too:
"To parents I say, above all else, don't let your home become some
terrible miniature copy of the school. No lesson plans! No quizzes!**
I'd like to discuss the gray area between the extreme of neglect and the
extreme of overcontrol. I tend to be soooo concerned about avoiding
being "controlling" that I may swing too far to the other end. (I
personally hate to be told what to do, and my son and my dad are very
similar in that respect, so perhaps not telling them what to do is a
sane and sensible strategy. But maybe it isn't.)
Is there a fine line up the middle, between the extremes, that I can walk?
I think that when people have come onto this list (in the dim past) with
very controlling school ideas, we tended to tell them -- "Stop it". And
that isn't always sufficient to tell them what to "start". I've done a
lot of stopping, a lot of not-meddling, but I don't initiate much, and I
wonder if I've gone too far and am actually not contributing what I
should to the family. (I've tentatively planned a lot of playdates for
January, but haven't sat down and penciled in museum field trips to meet
an educational quota. But, I might find it comforting if I did.)
Just following the lead of my child is probably not enough
participation. It certainly feels uncomfortable when the child isn't
bubbling over with suggestions, and spends big chunks of time on the
couch. But for me, when hearing the advice not to push a school
curriculum, I tend to overreact and think that I shouldn't promote
anything, unless my child is already interested in it.
Is it wrong or unhelpful to strew things that are very schooly, or even
a little bit schooly? Is it reasonable to promote nonfiction as a
balance to lots and lots of fantasy and gaming? Or is that just
wrongheaded?
Worries about math (natch), and science facts and handwriting and
geography are nibbling me. Most of my friends with kids the same age
are eclectic homeschoolers, with daughters who are brilliantly bookish.
(One nine year old reads Shakespeare, and the others cut from the same
cloth. It's unreasonable to expect him to be just like them, but they
are the kids that I hear about most.)
Philosophically I'm trying to answer the question "Should I row the boat
more, or should I just let it drift downstream?" Are there other
choices? Should he be holding his own (metaphorical) oars? (He's ten
going on eleven.)
We've talked, in the past, that the middle years can be discouraging in
unschooling. If the kid isn't passionately pursuing something that
looks braggably academic, then he can seem "behind" his schooled and
homeschooled peers who are being pushed into learning. But his
enthusiasm for learning and his ownership of his own mind are being kept
alive, and that's important to me. I'm just not feeling very
comfortable with "behindness" and seeing such slow progress on things
like handwriting, I'm having a hard time believing that what he needs
will eventually develop.
If this feels too abstract and self-indulgent, then feel free to let it go.
I think moving two years ago has been a setback for us. There is only a
tiny support group here in town, so we aren't swept along into
activities because our friends are doing them. For me, going to the
park alone and going to the museum alone aren't any fun.
What can I do that is positive? Is this process dependent on me doing
more? Or is "being" more important than "doing"? Would encouraging him
to practice handwriting directly, or indirectly, be harmful, beneficial,
neutral, or a waste of money? I feel like I should be able to figure
this out by myself.
Betsy
mamaaj2000
Betsy, how long have you been unschooling? I've only been working on
it for part of a year and my oldest is only four, but I've already
noticed a period (a month or two) when he seemed like he was learning
very little followed by a period (still going) when he resembles a
sponge asking a million questions about many different areas and
jumping ahead in abilities. He went straight from not drawing shapes
to writing half the alphabet overnight. Etc. The "quiet" phase
brought about a few qualms, esp. when visiting a neighbor's house
with her 4 y o's walls covered with all the "work" he "produces" at
pre-school.
I need to follow through on something I said I'd write months
ago...sort of a chart on "when you stop doing X, you can replace it
with Y and then Z will happen." Ex: when you stop correcting
spelling, you will see more of what the child is trying to express."
Little kid example: when you stop nagging about putting on socks
because it's winter, you will (over time) be able to offer advice on
appropriate amounts of clothing for different conditions and you'll
gain an understanding of what's actually appropriate for this one
child--and so will he.
I'm still working on strewing without valuing the "academic" activity
more. To me that's the ideal: to strew all sorts of math games,
books, games, toys and outings without silently cheering for any
particular choice.
--aj
it for part of a year and my oldest is only four, but I've already
noticed a period (a month or two) when he seemed like he was learning
very little followed by a period (still going) when he resembles a
sponge asking a million questions about many different areas and
jumping ahead in abilities. He went straight from not drawing shapes
to writing half the alphabet overnight. Etc. The "quiet" phase
brought about a few qualms, esp. when visiting a neighbor's house
with her 4 y o's walls covered with all the "work" he "produces" at
pre-school.
I need to follow through on something I said I'd write months
ago...sort of a chart on "when you stop doing X, you can replace it
with Y and then Z will happen." Ex: when you stop correcting
spelling, you will see more of what the child is trying to express."
Little kid example: when you stop nagging about putting on socks
because it's winter, you will (over time) be able to offer advice on
appropriate amounts of clothing for different conditions and you'll
gain an understanding of what's actually appropriate for this one
child--and so will he.
I'm still working on strewing without valuing the "academic" activity
more. To me that's the ideal: to strew all sorts of math games,
books, games, toys and outings without silently cheering for any
particular choice.
--aj
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/30/04 11:58:19 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:
<< Is there a fine line up the middle, between the extremes, that I can walk?
and it's here:
http://www.homeedmag.com/HEM/206/ndunschool.html
It might not answer the question, though, excpet to say "Yes."
Or more to the point, everything is between the two extremes.
-=Just following the lead of my child is probably not enough
participation. It certainly feels uncomfortable when the child isn't
bubbling over with suggestions, and spends big chunks of time on the
couch. -=-
We do a lot of just talking here. I'll tell the kids something interesting
I thought or heard or remembered and they'll do the same for me. It can lead
to looking something up, finding photos, or music, or something. I bring
videos into the house; they do too.
-=- But for me, when hearing the advice not to push a school
curriculum, I tend to overreact and think that I shouldn't promote
anything, unless my child is already interested in it.
-=-
Nothing at our house is "a school curriculum," but there are lots of things
at our house.
-=Is it wrong or unhelpful to strew things that are very schooly, or even
a little bit schooly?-=-
It depends. Schooly like a workbook? Some kids like workbooks.
Schooly like a science kit?
Schooly like a list of pronouns you want him to memorize?
We have a big chart of all the presidents on the wall. It's been taken down
twice before, but people want it back up. That's the kind of things schools
might have too, but we don't "do anything schooly" with it. It's just there.
It's used at least once a week, I think, and people new to the house almost
always spend some time looking at it. Holly asked yesterday which president was
oldest when he took office. I said I didn't know, and she went to look at
the chart.
-=-Is it reasonable to promote nonfiction as a
balance to lots and lots of fantasy and gaming? Or is that just
wrongheaded?-=-
I don't think it's a problem unless there's a judgment attached, like "stop
that worthless thing and do this rarified, valuable thing."
-=-Most of my friends with kids the same age
are eclectic homeschoolers, with daughters who are brilliantly bookish.
(One nine year old reads Shakespeare-=-
Do you watch Shakespeare on video with your family? Maybe you could just
watch it yourself, and others might join. Or if they don't, maybe you'll enjoy
it. Or if perchance it gags you, don't worry about it. <g> There are
Shakespeare ideas here if you want any:
http://sandradodd.com/shakespeare
-=-Philosophically I'm trying to answer the question "Should I row the boat
more, or should I just let it drift downstream?" -=-
Row your boat separate from his, but tell him what you're seeing, maybe?
Don't sit on the bank and expect him to be rowing a boat because he's a kid,
while you sit still because you're not.
-=-For me, going to the
park alone and going to the museum alone aren't any fun.-=-
Can you invite another kid to go with you? Someone's mom might REALLY
appreciate having a kid gone (and if she has others it will give her a chance to do
special things with those at home). Things are different with different
people. It doesn't have to be a boy his age. Could be a teen, or a toddler.
-=What can I do that is positive? -=-
Ten positive things a day?
Strewing, pointing out a sunset, an interesting article, making new food,
cleaning the bathroom and leaving something in there that he's never seen but
will be interested in, go through his clothes and take the too-small ones away so
he has more room, put on some music he's never hear... stuff like that?
-=-Is this process dependent on me doing
more? Or is "being" more important than "doing"? -=-
You can't do without being.
Can you be without doing? I guess that's your concern.
Can you be an unschooler without "doing unschooling"?
If you're uncomfortable, maybe more is necessary.
-=-Would encouraging him
to practice handwriting directly, or indirectly, be harmful, beneficial,
neutral, or a waste of money? -=-
How much money are you thinking? (Did you mean to write "time"?)
I think harmful.
I don't think beneficial or neutral.
Sandra
<< Is there a fine line up the middle, between the extremes, that I can walk?
>>I wrote an article called "Balancing in the Middle Ground not so long ago,
and it's here:
http://www.homeedmag.com/HEM/206/ndunschool.html
It might not answer the question, though, excpet to say "Yes."
Or more to the point, everything is between the two extremes.
-=Just following the lead of my child is probably not enough
participation. It certainly feels uncomfortable when the child isn't
bubbling over with suggestions, and spends big chunks of time on the
couch. -=-
We do a lot of just talking here. I'll tell the kids something interesting
I thought or heard or remembered and they'll do the same for me. It can lead
to looking something up, finding photos, or music, or something. I bring
videos into the house; they do too.
-=- But for me, when hearing the advice not to push a school
curriculum, I tend to overreact and think that I shouldn't promote
anything, unless my child is already interested in it.
-=-
Nothing at our house is "a school curriculum," but there are lots of things
at our house.
-=Is it wrong or unhelpful to strew things that are very schooly, or even
a little bit schooly?-=-
It depends. Schooly like a workbook? Some kids like workbooks.
Schooly like a science kit?
Schooly like a list of pronouns you want him to memorize?
We have a big chart of all the presidents on the wall. It's been taken down
twice before, but people want it back up. That's the kind of things schools
might have too, but we don't "do anything schooly" with it. It's just there.
It's used at least once a week, I think, and people new to the house almost
always spend some time looking at it. Holly asked yesterday which president was
oldest when he took office. I said I didn't know, and she went to look at
the chart.
-=-Is it reasonable to promote nonfiction as a
balance to lots and lots of fantasy and gaming? Or is that just
wrongheaded?-=-
I don't think it's a problem unless there's a judgment attached, like "stop
that worthless thing and do this rarified, valuable thing."
-=-Most of my friends with kids the same age
are eclectic homeschoolers, with daughters who are brilliantly bookish.
(One nine year old reads Shakespeare-=-
Do you watch Shakespeare on video with your family? Maybe you could just
watch it yourself, and others might join. Or if they don't, maybe you'll enjoy
it. Or if perchance it gags you, don't worry about it. <g> There are
Shakespeare ideas here if you want any:
http://sandradodd.com/shakespeare
-=-Philosophically I'm trying to answer the question "Should I row the boat
more, or should I just let it drift downstream?" -=-
Row your boat separate from his, but tell him what you're seeing, maybe?
Don't sit on the bank and expect him to be rowing a boat because he's a kid,
while you sit still because you're not.
-=-For me, going to the
park alone and going to the museum alone aren't any fun.-=-
Can you invite another kid to go with you? Someone's mom might REALLY
appreciate having a kid gone (and if she has others it will give her a chance to do
special things with those at home). Things are different with different
people. It doesn't have to be a boy his age. Could be a teen, or a toddler.
-=What can I do that is positive? -=-
Ten positive things a day?
Strewing, pointing out a sunset, an interesting article, making new food,
cleaning the bathroom and leaving something in there that he's never seen but
will be interested in, go through his clothes and take the too-small ones away so
he has more room, put on some music he's never hear... stuff like that?
-=-Is this process dependent on me doing
more? Or is "being" more important than "doing"? -=-
You can't do without being.
Can you be without doing? I guess that's your concern.
Can you be an unschooler without "doing unschooling"?
If you're uncomfortable, maybe more is necessary.
-=-Would encouraging him
to practice handwriting directly, or indirectly, be harmful, beneficial,
neutral, or a waste of money? -=-
How much money are you thinking? (Did you mean to write "time"?)
I think harmful.
I don't think beneficial or neutral.
Sandra
[email protected]
I have a few recommendations.
<< I
already know many of their interests and passions, since they have
taught themselves most of what they know anyway; they certainly haven’t
learned it in school. >>
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
It's about the difference between "teach" and "learn" and the change it will
make in your thinking to consider them carefully. If you say "They learned
most of what they know on their own anyway," it seems like just a little
change, but it will change everything.
-=-I wondered if there are any resources or discussion lists specifically
about unschooling academically “gifted” children, or if there is any
difference at all. -=-
I'm sure there are lists about academically gifted children, out the wazoo.
I'm sure unschooling works the same way regardless.
I'm positive that those labels do as much harm as others.
-=-I would like some input from others who are experienced
with this particular area. Any book recommendations?-=-
Howard Gardner's Frames of Mind helped me a lot.
You don't have to read it cover to cover, just familiarize yourself with the
gist of it (if you don't have much time, and few parents of younger kids have
tons of extra time).
-=- I also wondered how I would be able to keep up with them in
an unschooling setting. -=-
It's not a race. You don't need to keep up with them, but if you're all
there in the same place, it's easy to spark each others' curiosity about all kinds
of things.
http://sandradodd.com/museum (Your House as a Museum)
http://sandradodd.com/checklists (Disposable Checklists for Unschoolers)
-= Am I setting myself for failure? -=-
No, but you'll do better when you let go of the "smart" measurements and
comparisons for them and you too.
-=- Is it unschooling to let them have lessons that they ask
for in certain areas? -=-
I'm tiling a shower. Slowly and cautiously. If I were a friend of yours and
said I was nervous and wanted help and ideas, how would you help me? Maybe
you already know, or maybe you could find me a book, or recommend a friend who
has done it, or a webpage, or a video.
-=-My 5 year old wanted to learn Spanish so bad, so
a friend of mine is helping him learn it (I don’t know it).-=-
DVDs are phenomenal resources, because you can change the language track.
Sandra
<< I
already know many of their interests and passions, since they have
taught themselves most of what they know anyway; they certainly haven’t
learned it in school. >>
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
It's about the difference between "teach" and "learn" and the change it will
make in your thinking to consider them carefully. If you say "They learned
most of what they know on their own anyway," it seems like just a little
change, but it will change everything.
-=-I wondered if there are any resources or discussion lists specifically
about unschooling academically “gifted” children, or if there is any
difference at all. -=-
I'm sure there are lists about academically gifted children, out the wazoo.
I'm sure unschooling works the same way regardless.
I'm positive that those labels do as much harm as others.
-=-I would like some input from others who are experienced
with this particular area. Any book recommendations?-=-
Howard Gardner's Frames of Mind helped me a lot.
You don't have to read it cover to cover, just familiarize yourself with the
gist of it (if you don't have much time, and few parents of younger kids have
tons of extra time).
-=- I also wondered how I would be able to keep up with them in
an unschooling setting. -=-
It's not a race. You don't need to keep up with them, but if you're all
there in the same place, it's easy to spark each others' curiosity about all kinds
of things.
http://sandradodd.com/museum (Your House as a Museum)
http://sandradodd.com/checklists (Disposable Checklists for Unschoolers)
-= Am I setting myself for failure? -=-
No, but you'll do better when you let go of the "smart" measurements and
comparisons for them and you too.
-=- Is it unschooling to let them have lessons that they ask
for in certain areas? -=-
I'm tiling a shower. Slowly and cautiously. If I were a friend of yours and
said I was nervous and wanted help and ideas, how would you help me? Maybe
you already know, or maybe you could find me a book, or recommend a friend who
has done it, or a webpage, or a video.
-=-My 5 year old wanted to learn Spanish so bad, so
a friend of mine is helping him learn it (I don’t know it).-=-
DVDs are phenomenal resources, because you can change the language track.
Sandra
Elizabeth Hill
** Do you watch Shakespeare on video with your family?**
Yes, we do. Both my spouse and I are Shakespeare enthusiasts. Oh, and
we got The Reduced Shakespeare Company from Netflix, and the humor in
that was very popular with James. I think he watched it three times.
(I watched 1/2, left during the Titus scene because I was eating, and
came back to see parts of the second time.)
I may be shooting my efforts in the foot by being too penny pinching.
There are some Broadway Theatre Archive plays that I'd like to get, esp.
Cyrano, but I'm having trouble actually parting with the money. (Last
time I looked, Netflix didn't have them.)
** Can you be without doing? I guess that's your concern.**
(tangerine)
I heard Wendy Wasserstein on Talk of the Nation talking about "sloth"
today. It was pretty hysterical. Neil Conan, the host, suggested that
to achieve sloth one has to start with a vigorous induction phase. This
cracked me up. That would be like a really indolent start to a fitness
program.
** I think harmful.
I don't think beneficial or neutral.**
Yeah, there is not much sense in inflicting uncomfortable busywork.
Betsy
Yes, we do. Both my spouse and I are Shakespeare enthusiasts. Oh, and
we got The Reduced Shakespeare Company from Netflix, and the humor in
that was very popular with James. I think he watched it three times.
(I watched 1/2, left during the Titus scene because I was eating, and
came back to see parts of the second time.)
I may be shooting my efforts in the foot by being too penny pinching.
There are some Broadway Theatre Archive plays that I'd like to get, esp.
Cyrano, but I'm having trouble actually parting with the money. (Last
time I looked, Netflix didn't have them.)
** Can you be without doing? I guess that's your concern.**
(tangerine)
I heard Wendy Wasserstein on Talk of the Nation talking about "sloth"
today. It was pretty hysterical. Neil Conan, the host, suggested that
to achieve sloth one has to start with a vigorous induction phase. This
cracked me up. That would be like a really indolent start to a fitness
program.
** I think harmful.
I don't think beneficial or neutral.**
Yeah, there is not much sense in inflicting uncomfortable busywork.
Betsy
Elizabeth Hill
** -=-I wondered if there are any resources or discussion lists specifically
about unschooling academically “gifted” children, or if there is any
difference at all. -=-**
You can post here saying "my kid is really into ___" and get some
terrific book/movie/game/TV recommendations. (We'd probably recommend
stuff that we liked, not just stuff that our kids liked.) And if you
qualify your post with info about the kids age, "this kid is interested
in intergalactic travel, but is only six" we can try to edit out stuff
that might be too sexy or too scary for an advanced reader who is still
very young.
Betsy
about unschooling academically “gifted” children, or if there is any
difference at all. -=-**
You can post here saying "my kid is really into ___" and get some
terrific book/movie/game/TV recommendations. (We'd probably recommend
stuff that we liked, not just stuff that our kids liked.) And if you
qualify your post with info about the kids age, "this kid is interested
in intergalactic travel, but is only six" we can try to edit out stuff
that might be too sexy or too scary for an advanced reader who is still
very young.
Betsy
julie w
Elizabeth Hill wrote:
The poor guy who called in and asked if being a sloth was just another
name for being lazy just did not get it.
;-)
Julie W in AR
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>That was SUCH a good interview.
> (tangerine)
> I heard Wendy Wasserstein on Talk of the Nation talking about "sloth"
> today. It was pretty hysterical. Neil Conan, the host, suggested that
> to achieve sloth one has to start with a vigorous induction phase. This
> cracked me up. That would be like a really indolent start to a fitness
> program.
>
The poor guy who called in and asked if being a sloth was just another
name for being lazy just did not get it.
;-)
Julie W in AR
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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pam sorooshian
On Dec 30, 2004, at 11:02 AM, Elizabeth Hill wrote:
think parents should be very involved and be initiating a lot of stuff
for their kids (with the kids free to turn it down, of course). But -
then every time I was about to say "yes" you mentioned a specific of
what you were thinking about and I immediately switched to "NO NO
NONONO!!!
Handwriting isn't important. My oldest and middle child are both
successful college students - one has great handwriting and one has
poor handwriting. It doesn't matter.
But - I do think unschooling parents ought to be pretty alert and aware
of potentially interesting stuff to offer to their child. Just before I
read your post, Betsy, I was checking out the Getty museum's hours. We
have another trip to the Museum of Radio and Television booked for next
week - the kids LOVED that one, last time we went here. We're going to
see the King Tut exhibit - have to book months ahead for that. I was
JUST sitting here thinking that I'd like to set up a camping trip to
the desert in the spring. Tomorrow night we might go spend the night on
the streets of Pasadena and watch the Rose parade in the morning IF the
rain stops early enough in the afternoon. I ask my kids to play games
with me all the time. I happened to find a little quilt-making kit in
some old craft supplies and I took that out and offered it to Rosie. My
point is that I am doing a lot of the "initiating" around here - but
the kids are doing far more of it now than they did at 10 or 11 years
old.
NONE of my initiating is designed to directly or indirectly get the
kids to learn something like handwriting or math. They are always
experiences that I think are likely to be enjoyed for their own sakes,
not as a means to an end.
Not everybody likes to be on the go as much as we have been over the
years. We're slowing down these days - enjoying long days at home. Here
in Southern California we don't have weather to keep us in and there
are so MANY cool things to do - we sometimes overdo it. I have started
to be the one to say, "How about we don't make any plans for Friday -
just stay home and putter around?" This is still me doing the
initiating.
If I didn't find out about things and tell my kids about opportunities,
they wouldn't do 1/10th as much as what they do choose to do.So, the
answer is, yes, I think the unschooling parent's role is to act as a
resource person.
BUT - the goal is a satisfyingly-immersed-in-life present - not finding
ways to sort of trick a kid into learning something.
-pam
>Reading your whole post, I kept wanting to say, "Yes," meaning that I
> What can I do that is positive? Is this process dependent on me doing
> more? Or is "being" more important than "doing"? Would encouraging
> him
> to practice handwriting directly, or indirectly, be harmful,
> beneficial,
> neutral, or a waste of money? I feel like I should be able to figure
> this out by myself.
think parents should be very involved and be initiating a lot of stuff
for their kids (with the kids free to turn it down, of course). But -
then every time I was about to say "yes" you mentioned a specific of
what you were thinking about and I immediately switched to "NO NO
NONONO!!!
Handwriting isn't important. My oldest and middle child are both
successful college students - one has great handwriting and one has
poor handwriting. It doesn't matter.
But - I do think unschooling parents ought to be pretty alert and aware
of potentially interesting stuff to offer to their child. Just before I
read your post, Betsy, I was checking out the Getty museum's hours. We
have another trip to the Museum of Radio and Television booked for next
week - the kids LOVED that one, last time we went here. We're going to
see the King Tut exhibit - have to book months ahead for that. I was
JUST sitting here thinking that I'd like to set up a camping trip to
the desert in the spring. Tomorrow night we might go spend the night on
the streets of Pasadena and watch the Rose parade in the morning IF the
rain stops early enough in the afternoon. I ask my kids to play games
with me all the time. I happened to find a little quilt-making kit in
some old craft supplies and I took that out and offered it to Rosie. My
point is that I am doing a lot of the "initiating" around here - but
the kids are doing far more of it now than they did at 10 or 11 years
old.
NONE of my initiating is designed to directly or indirectly get the
kids to learn something like handwriting or math. They are always
experiences that I think are likely to be enjoyed for their own sakes,
not as a means to an end.
Not everybody likes to be on the go as much as we have been over the
years. We're slowing down these days - enjoying long days at home. Here
in Southern California we don't have weather to keep us in and there
are so MANY cool things to do - we sometimes overdo it. I have started
to be the one to say, "How about we don't make any plans for Friday -
just stay home and putter around?" This is still me doing the
initiating.
If I didn't find out about things and tell my kids about opportunities,
they wouldn't do 1/10th as much as what they do choose to do.So, the
answer is, yes, I think the unschooling parent's role is to act as a
resource person.
BUT - the goal is a satisfyingly-immersed-in-life present - not finding
ways to sort of trick a kid into learning something.
-pam
Holly Furgason
> On Dec 30, 2004, at 11:02 AM, Elizabeth Hill wrote:doing
> > What can I do that is positive? Is this process dependent on me
> > more? Or is "being" more important than "doing"?Unschooling works best when parents are pursuing their own
interests. Rather than looking for things for the kids to do, find
things for *you* to do. My kids know they can throw themselves 100%
into a project or an interest because all their lives they've seen
their parents do it. They've seen how much we love learning and
doing new things and how it has enriched our lives.
There is a whole lot of facilitating (I hate that word but can't
think of another to use) but I can leave all the resources around for
my kids that I want, I can drag them to everything I think they'll
like but without my example of how fun learning can be, it's just
more stuff and more places to go.
Would encouraging
> > himIf beautiful handwriting is important to you, get a caligraphy set
> > to practice handwriting directly, or indirectly, be harmful,
> > beneficial,
> > neutral, or a waste of money?
and *you* learn to write beautifully. If you're doing it for the
right reasons (you love it, find it fun, have a passion for it) your
kids will see that. At some point in their lives, they may pick up a
pen and start to see how beautiful their handwriting can be. If they
don't, they've still seen you having fun learning something new.
Don't be disgourage if they never decide that nice handwriting is
important. In this day and age it's not.
I feel like I should be able to figure
> > this out by myself.What fun would that be? :-) If we all did that, we wouldn't be
enjoying this list.
Holly
2 COOL 4 SCHOOL
Unschooling t-shirts with an edge!
http://www.cafepress.com/2cool4school
Elizabeth Hill
** I wrote an article called "Balancing in the Middle Ground not so long
ago,
and it's here:
http://www.homeedmag.com/HEM/206/ndunschool.html**
Thanks, Sandra. This is the article I needed to read. I'm going to
leave it open on my desktop and read it a couple more times this week.
Betsy
ago,
and it's here:
http://www.homeedmag.com/HEM/206/ndunschool.html**
Thanks, Sandra. This is the article I needed to read. I'm going to
leave it open on my desktop and read it a couple more times this week.
Betsy
Elizabeth Hill
**I happened to find a little quilt-making kit in
some old craft supplies and I took that out and offered it to Rosie.**
If she gets interested in quilting, let me know and I can send you some
squares in her favorite color.
** If I didn't find out about things and tell my kids about opportunities,
they wouldn't do 1/10th as much as what they do choose to do.**
I've started to take the local newspaper as well as the regional one.
And gotten on a mailing list for the local performing arts center. But
I'm sure I could spread my information tentacles farther.
Betsy
some old craft supplies and I took that out and offered it to Rosie.**
If she gets interested in quilting, let me know and I can send you some
squares in her favorite color.
** If I didn't find out about things and tell my kids about opportunities,
they wouldn't do 1/10th as much as what they do choose to do.**
I've started to take the local newspaper as well as the regional one.
And gotten on a mailing list for the local performing arts center. But
I'm sure I could spread my information tentacles farther.
Betsy
Elizabeth Hill
** If I didn't find out about things and tell my kids about opportunities,
they wouldn't do 1/10th as much as what they do choose to do.So, the
answer is, yes, I think the unschooling parent's role is to act as a
resource person.
BUT - the goal is a satisfyingly-immersed-in-life present - not finding
ways to sort of trick a kid into learning something.**
re: telling kids about opportunities
My son has a lot of initial reluctance about new things, and I am just
awful as a salesman. Traditional parents get over the initial
reluctance by just telling their kids "We're going -- you don't have a
choice." I'm not going to do that, although if I whine to the wrong
people about staying home, that's the kind of advice I get. (e.g. "Make
him go. He'll enjoy it after the first ten minutes.")
Strewing seems to work better, for me, with objects that can sit out on
the table or couch for awhile. An offer to go on an outing seems more
ephemeral. Should it be offered, say, three times? (Far in advance, a
week in advance and that morning?)
Proposals to go places with his friends are great, if we can get our
schedules synchronized. When that isn't feasible, I suppose I could
offer "let's go to the museum and get ice cream on the way home", if I
can manage not to sound desperate.
I'm a little frustrated with my very tired husband who may want to stay
home all day today, all day tomorrow and all day Sunday.
Betsy
they wouldn't do 1/10th as much as what they do choose to do.So, the
answer is, yes, I think the unschooling parent's role is to act as a
resource person.
BUT - the goal is a satisfyingly-immersed-in-life present - not finding
ways to sort of trick a kid into learning something.**
re: telling kids about opportunities
My son has a lot of initial reluctance about new things, and I am just
awful as a salesman. Traditional parents get over the initial
reluctance by just telling their kids "We're going -- you don't have a
choice." I'm not going to do that, although if I whine to the wrong
people about staying home, that's the kind of advice I get. (e.g. "Make
him go. He'll enjoy it after the first ten minutes.")
Strewing seems to work better, for me, with objects that can sit out on
the table or couch for awhile. An offer to go on an outing seems more
ephemeral. Should it be offered, say, three times? (Far in advance, a
week in advance and that morning?)
Proposals to go places with his friends are great, if we can get our
schedules synchronized. When that isn't feasible, I suppose I could
offer "let's go to the museum and get ice cream on the way home", if I
can manage not to sound desperate.
I'm a little frustrated with my very tired husband who may want to stay
home all day today, all day tomorrow and all day Sunday.
Betsy
Deb Lewis
***I suppose I could offer "let's go to the museum and get ice cream on
the way home", if I
can manage not to sound desperate.***
What about going for the ice cream first and while you're already out,
having fun, eating yummy stuff, say "Let's stop at the museum, I heard
they have a dinosaur display." (or whatever) Would that be an easier
transition for him if he's already out of the house and doing something
fun?
Maybe you could then add an after museum thing too, whatever that might
be, stopping at the park or the game store or something.
At night when Dylan and I are up late we sit on the couch and talk about
what we'd like to do next day. Sometimes we decide to stay home and
watch movies but often he has something he'd like to go see or do. We
make a plan about what time we'll leave, what else we can do while were
out. If he says he'd like to go climb the rocks at Washoe park (in
another town) I will mention some of the other things to do there.
There's an indoor pool at a resort nearby or an outdoor pool with a water
slide, there's a place called "Goosetown" where we feed the ducks and
geese, there's a little history museum, art gallery, an old train depot,
etc.
We just go, a lot. We drive to a lake, take a picnic lunch, play. In
the winter we take the sled. We go snow shoeing. We just go.
When we stay home we play a lot of games. Dylan really likes chess and
is up for a game almost anytime. And there's the trampoline. We bounced
on it yesterday when it was covered in snow. That was cold and fun. <g>
The snow really flies up all around you and creates a wonderful
disorienting, flying feeling. We thought we knew what it would be like
to be a snowflake after that. <g> We live two blocks from a fairly good
sledding hill so that's always an option if there's snow.
I tend towards hibernation in the winter so I work at offering ways to
get out of the house.
Deb L
the way home", if I
can manage not to sound desperate.***
What about going for the ice cream first and while you're already out,
having fun, eating yummy stuff, say "Let's stop at the museum, I heard
they have a dinosaur display." (or whatever) Would that be an easier
transition for him if he's already out of the house and doing something
fun?
Maybe you could then add an after museum thing too, whatever that might
be, stopping at the park or the game store or something.
At night when Dylan and I are up late we sit on the couch and talk about
what we'd like to do next day. Sometimes we decide to stay home and
watch movies but often he has something he'd like to go see or do. We
make a plan about what time we'll leave, what else we can do while were
out. If he says he'd like to go climb the rocks at Washoe park (in
another town) I will mention some of the other things to do there.
There's an indoor pool at a resort nearby or an outdoor pool with a water
slide, there's a place called "Goosetown" where we feed the ducks and
geese, there's a little history museum, art gallery, an old train depot,
etc.
We just go, a lot. We drive to a lake, take a picnic lunch, play. In
the winter we take the sled. We go snow shoeing. We just go.
When we stay home we play a lot of games. Dylan really likes chess and
is up for a game almost anytime. And there's the trampoline. We bounced
on it yesterday when it was covered in snow. That was cold and fun. <g>
The snow really flies up all around you and creates a wonderful
disorienting, flying feeling. We thought we knew what it would be like
to be a snowflake after that. <g> We live two blocks from a fairly good
sledding hill so that's always an option if there's snow.
I tend towards hibernation in the winter so I work at offering ways to
get out of the house.
Deb L
Elizabeth Hill
** Unschooling works best when parents are pursuing their own
interests. Rather than looking for things for the kids to do, find
things for *you* to do. My kids know they can throw themselves 100%
into a project or an interest because all their lives they've seen
their parents do it. **
Some days I spend hours working on my quilting projects. I'm not sure
that this time isn't mis-spent. I could instead spend those hours
watching what he is watching on TV, or driving him places, or surfing or
shopping to find more cool stuff.
Would it be more beneficial if I switched interests frequently, rather
than being deeply interested in one thing?
I got interested in the American Revolution this fall and read five or
six books on the topic. Some of them were books on tape, but he mostly
wasn't in the same room any of that time. Yeah, sometimes I would pop
my head out and shout to my husband "You'll never believe what they said
about the Aaron Burr duel", so, yes, there was some spillover from my
interests into my son's ears. And if the topic comes up, I have lots
more knowledge to share, now. But I don't see my interests directly
inspiring him.
(Sharing : Ms. magazine, Fall issue, has a great article on the
"founding father's" attitudes towards religion and what they had to say
about church & state. Tends to refute what the radical religious right
has been claiming.)
I was very interested in the Presidential Election and discussed
political issues in front of my son fairly frequently and answered his
questions. I'm sure I gave him a biased view! (I think he did learn at
lot from this. And since we watch The Daily Show, he can lip-read most
swear words. <g>) Oh! I'm reading a cool book, _The Republican Noise
Machine_, which dates fear of the liberal media back to the Nixon
administration. Yes, that man did NOT like criticism.
James did get involved in gardening with us recently. He likes the
taste-testing segments when I watch America's Test Kitchen. So, prior
to planting a citrus tree, we had a citrus tasting and planted the one
he thought tasted best (Clementine). He was enthusiastic about planting
that. We have a break in the rain today, and I'd like to go to the
nursery today to buy herb plants. It would be nice if James wanted to
come with me, so my husband could come, too.
** If beautiful handwriting is important to you, get a caligraphy set
and *you* learn to write beautifully**
(OK, here's the part where I start to sound desperate.)
(I can do calligraphy although I haven't demonstrated it for my child much.)
The issue isn't "beautiful" handwriting, it's the ability to write at
all. He can make scraggly letters, but has written so little that he
has trouble remembering how all of the letters are formed. The amount
of writing that he has done spontaneously is not more than 10
*characters* at a time. (maybe three words) and FAR less than 100
*characters* per year. (More like 50 or 60 single charcters in a
year.) It's difficult for me to wait for him to want to write. Right
now it seems that IF he had something he wanted to write, he couldn't do
it. (He has never shown much interest in drawing.) Could he really not
be developmentally able to do this? That was my theory when he was 7
and 8, but it's sounding thin now that he is almost 11. (FYI, I'm not
commenting to him about it at all, and I think my facial expressions are
neutral.)
** I feel like I should be able to figure
enjoying this list.**
OK, thanks. My husband is a great listener, but he is so "not pushy"
that it's hard to get any suggestions from him. I did appreciate your
post, despite the fact that I "talked back" to it.
Betsy
interests. Rather than looking for things for the kids to do, find
things for *you* to do. My kids know they can throw themselves 100%
into a project or an interest because all their lives they've seen
their parents do it. **
Some days I spend hours working on my quilting projects. I'm not sure
that this time isn't mis-spent. I could instead spend those hours
watching what he is watching on TV, or driving him places, or surfing or
shopping to find more cool stuff.
Would it be more beneficial if I switched interests frequently, rather
than being deeply interested in one thing?
I got interested in the American Revolution this fall and read five or
six books on the topic. Some of them were books on tape, but he mostly
wasn't in the same room any of that time. Yeah, sometimes I would pop
my head out and shout to my husband "You'll never believe what they said
about the Aaron Burr duel", so, yes, there was some spillover from my
interests into my son's ears. And if the topic comes up, I have lots
more knowledge to share, now. But I don't see my interests directly
inspiring him.
(Sharing : Ms. magazine, Fall issue, has a great article on the
"founding father's" attitudes towards religion and what they had to say
about church & state. Tends to refute what the radical religious right
has been claiming.)
I was very interested in the Presidential Election and discussed
political issues in front of my son fairly frequently and answered his
questions. I'm sure I gave him a biased view! (I think he did learn at
lot from this. And since we watch The Daily Show, he can lip-read most
swear words. <g>) Oh! I'm reading a cool book, _The Republican Noise
Machine_, which dates fear of the liberal media back to the Nixon
administration. Yes, that man did NOT like criticism.
James did get involved in gardening with us recently. He likes the
taste-testing segments when I watch America's Test Kitchen. So, prior
to planting a citrus tree, we had a citrus tasting and planted the one
he thought tasted best (Clementine). He was enthusiastic about planting
that. We have a break in the rain today, and I'd like to go to the
nursery today to buy herb plants. It would be nice if James wanted to
come with me, so my husband could come, too.
** If beautiful handwriting is important to you, get a caligraphy set
and *you* learn to write beautifully**
(OK, here's the part where I start to sound desperate.)
(I can do calligraphy although I haven't demonstrated it for my child much.)
The issue isn't "beautiful" handwriting, it's the ability to write at
all. He can make scraggly letters, but has written so little that he
has trouble remembering how all of the letters are formed. The amount
of writing that he has done spontaneously is not more than 10
*characters* at a time. (maybe three words) and FAR less than 100
*characters* per year. (More like 50 or 60 single charcters in a
year.) It's difficult for me to wait for him to want to write. Right
now it seems that IF he had something he wanted to write, he couldn't do
it. (He has never shown much interest in drawing.) Could he really not
be developmentally able to do this? That was my theory when he was 7
and 8, but it's sounding thin now that he is almost 11. (FYI, I'm not
commenting to him about it at all, and I think my facial expressions are
neutral.)
** I feel like I should be able to figure
> > this out by myself.What fun would that be? :-) If we all did that, we wouldn't be
enjoying this list.**
OK, thanks. My husband is a great listener, but he is so "not pushy"
that it's hard to get any suggestions from him. I did appreciate your
post, despite the fact that I "talked back" to it.
Betsy
Holly Furgason
--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Hill
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
invited because they're really excited about it. I love doing things
with my kids that I may not do on my own because I like my kids. I
don't obligated because it might be good for them, I feel
privledged. And as parents we do have some running around to do with
them but it doesn't sound like he's asking, just that you feel you
should be doing.
school thing. I don't think it happens naturally anywhere else in
the world. We've created an ADD society because of it.
it interesting (boys and dueling!) or had his own ideas on the
subject. How is he going to learn to share his learning passions
with you if you don't share yours with him?
And if the topic comes up, I have lots
interested in his knowledge than it what you have to impart.
Teachers share their knowledge; learners share in the knowledge of
others. You want to set the example of a learner.
their opinions and ideas are and if he doesn't join in, that's okay.
When he's ready, he will.
discussion. Discussion includes the give and take, sharing of new
concepts, clear communication and formulation of ideas that make it
the almost perfect *learning* tool. It's the difference between
Socrates and No Child Left Behind.
go, head over there yourself. Maybe hisinterst in the tree had to
with the fact he tasted the reward first. Maybe he'll need to taste
the herbs when they're ready for him to become interested. Or maybe
he just doesn't like herbs and never will. :-)
It's difficult for me to wait for him to want to write. Right
average and no one cares that his 1st piece of writing was for
college. If you can talk, you can write. When he needs/wants to he
will.
Ds and I had a discussion recently. He was upset that I didn't make
him write when he was a child. I explained my options; I could have
made him and he'd be able to write but would hate it because it
seemed to be so difficult or I could wait until he was ready. Given
the alternative, he realized that I made a good choice.
Holly
2 COOL 4 SCHOOL
Unschooling t-shirts with an edge!
http;//www.cafepress.com/2cool4school
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
> Some days I spend hours working on my quilting projects. I'm notsure
> that this time isn't mis-spent. I could instead spend those hourssurfing or
> watching what he is watching on TV, or driving him places, or
> shopping to find more cool stuff.Why? I only watch TV with the kids if I'm really interested or
invited because they're really excited about it. I love doing things
with my kids that I may not do on my own because I like my kids. I
don't obligated because it might be good for them, I feel
privledged. And as parents we do have some running around to do with
them but it doesn't sound like he's asking, just that you feel you
should be doing.
> Would it be more beneficial if I switched interests frequently,rather
> than being deeply interested in one thing?Like every 45 minutes? ;-) Switching interests frequently is a
school thing. I don't think it happens naturally anywhere else in
the world. We've created an ADD society because of it.
> I got interested in the American Revolution this fall and read fiveor
> six books on the topic. Some of them were books on tape, but hemostly
> wasn't in the same room any of that time. Yeah, sometimes I wouldpop
> my head out and shout to my husband "You'll never believe what theysaid
> about the Aaron Burr duel", so, yes, there was some spillover frommy
> interests into my son's ears.But why didn't you include your son in the shout? He may have found
it interesting (boys and dueling!) or had his own ideas on the
subject. How is he going to learn to share his learning passions
with you if you don't share yours with him?
And if the topic comes up, I have lots
> more knowledge to share, now. But I don't see my interestsdirectly
> inspiring him.That's not the point of your interests though and you need to be more
interested in his knowledge than it what you have to impart.
Teachers share their knowledge; learners share in the knowledge of
others. You want to set the example of a learner.
> (Sharing : Ms. magazine, Fall issue, has a great article on thesay
> "founding father's" attitudes towards religion and what they had to
> about church & state. Tends to refute what the radical religiousright
> has been claiming.)So share it with him and your husband, be truly intersted in what
their opinions and ideas are and if he doesn't join in, that's okay.
When he's ready, he will.
> I was very interested in the Presidential Election and discussedhis
> political issues in front of my son fairly frequently and answered
> questions.With him! With him! With him! Answering questions is not a
discussion. Discussion includes the give and take, sharing of new
concepts, clear communication and formulation of ideas that make it
the almost perfect *learning* tool. It's the difference between
Socrates and No Child Left Behind.
> James did get involved in gardening with us recently. He likes theprior
> taste-testing segments when I watch America's Test Kitchen. So,
> to planting a citrus tree, we had a citrus tasting and planted theone
> he thought tasted best (Clementine). He was enthusiastic aboutplanting
> that. We have a break in the rain today, and I'd like to go to theto
> nursery today to buy herb plants. It would be nice if James wanted
> come with me, so my husband could come, too.Invite them both along and if one or the other or both don't want to
go, head over there yourself. Maybe hisinterst in the tree had to
with the fact he tasted the reward first. Maybe he'll need to taste
the herbs when they're ready for him to become interested. Or maybe
he just doesn't like herbs and never will. :-)
> ** If beautiful handwriting is important to you, get a caligraphyset
> and *you* learn to write beautifully**<snip>
>
> (OK, here's the part where I start to sound desperate.)
It's difficult for me to wait for him to want to write. Right
> now it seems that IF he had something he wanted to write, hecouldn't do
> it. (He has never shown much interest in drawing.) Could hereally not
> be developmentally able to do this? That was my theory when he was7
> and 8, but it's sounding thin now that he is almost 11.My 19 yo never wrote until he was in college. So what. He has a B
average and no one cares that his 1st piece of writing was for
college. If you can talk, you can write. When he needs/wants to he
will.
Ds and I had a discussion recently. He was upset that I didn't make
him write when he was a child. I explained my options; I could have
made him and he'd be able to write but would hate it because it
seemed to be so difficult or I could wait until he was ready. Given
the alternative, he realized that I made a good choice.
> OK, thanks. My husband is a great listener, but he is so "notpushy"
> that it's hard to get any suggestions from him. I did appreciateyour
> post, despite the fact that I "talked back" to it.You didn't talk back, we're *discussing* it.
Holly
2 COOL 4 SCHOOL
Unschooling t-shirts with an edge!
http;//www.cafepress.com/2cool4school
pam sorooshian
On Dec 31, 2004, at 7:37 AM, Elizabeth Hill wrote:
before, sounds cool to me - they have real mummies on display. Do you
think your friend Mikey might like to go with us?"
And - it IS important to think of what is there that might entice HIM.
"I'm wanting to go to that science museum where they have the "bed of
nails" you can lie down on and they sell rock candy on a stick in the
gift shop." <G>
And - willingness to LEAVE when the kid has had enough - leave when
he's satisfied, don't push him to see ONE more exhibit. I've gone to
art galleries with the kids when they were his age - and just looked in
one little area and then left. I'd just say, "I want to go see this
picture by Picasso - it is such a strange picture - all distorted and
deformed with eyes where they should not be and stuff, wait until you
see it - you can help me figure out what it is all about." And then -
just see that one painting - if he's interested in others, go ahead and
look at a couple of others, and then go.
Oh - and gift shops at museums are often more fun than the museum for
the kids. And they often have some clever little relatively inexpensive
toys - sometimes related to the exhibits. It is okay to spend 20
minutes in a museum and an hour in the gift shop and then go get ice
cream.
I really really love museums and it has rubbed off on the kids. I'm
trying to think back about how that has happened - because I never was
particularly conscious about it at the time, just did what it took to
get MY museum visits in and keep them happy at the same time.
-pam
> Proposals to go places with his friends are great, if we can get our"I've been wanting to go to this museum that we've never visited
> schedules synchronized. When that isn't feasible, I suppose I could
> offer "let's go to the museum and get ice cream on the way home", if I
> can manage not to sound desperate.
before, sounds cool to me - they have real mummies on display. Do you
think your friend Mikey might like to go with us?"
And - it IS important to think of what is there that might entice HIM.
"I'm wanting to go to that science museum where they have the "bed of
nails" you can lie down on and they sell rock candy on a stick in the
gift shop." <G>
And - willingness to LEAVE when the kid has had enough - leave when
he's satisfied, don't push him to see ONE more exhibit. I've gone to
art galleries with the kids when they were his age - and just looked in
one little area and then left. I'd just say, "I want to go see this
picture by Picasso - it is such a strange picture - all distorted and
deformed with eyes where they should not be and stuff, wait until you
see it - you can help me figure out what it is all about." And then -
just see that one painting - if he's interested in others, go ahead and
look at a couple of others, and then go.
Oh - and gift shops at museums are often more fun than the museum for
the kids. And they often have some clever little relatively inexpensive
toys - sometimes related to the exhibits. It is okay to spend 20
minutes in a museum and an hour in the gift shop and then go get ice
cream.
I really really love museums and it has rubbed off on the kids. I'm
trying to think back about how that has happened - because I never was
particularly conscious about it at the time, just did what it took to
get MY museum visits in and keep them happy at the same time.
-pam
>
> I'm a little frustrated with my very tired husband who may want to stay
> home all day today, all day tomorrow and all day Sunday.
Dana Matt
> I've started to take the local newspaper as well asI've been good at finding out fun things to do, but
> the regional one.
> And gotten on a mailing list for the local
> performing arts center. But
> I'm sure I could spread my information tentacles
> farther.
>
bad at forgetting them ;) I bought an ENORMOUS
calender for the the hallway, and this year I'm
cutting out all the stuff we want to do out of the
newspaper, and glueing them to the calender so we
don't forget!
Dana
=====
Guadalupe's Coffee Roaster
100% Organic Fair Trade Coffee
Roasted to Perfection Daily
Free Home Delivery in Whatcom County
(360) 715-1900
__________________________________
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Elizabeth Hill
** But why didn't you include your son in the shout? He may have found
it interesting (boys and dueling!) or had his own ideas on the
subject. How is he going to learn to share his learning passions
with you if you don't share yours with him?**
Some shouted info he definitely heard. <g> He wasn't "excluded", anyway.
It makes sense to me to share information with him if I think he will
find it interesting. I don't share stuff that I think he would have no
reason to be interested in. (I tend to think that my tastes aren't
shared by most people. <g> I learned in elementary school that I was
weird and different.) However some stuff seemed to be of greater
interest to my husband, who loves history, knows the names of the
people, and has an adult understanding of political issues.
Maybe I just don't know how to translate a great anecdote from an adult
source into a good soundbite for a younger person. And maybe this is
just a "negativity" thing on my part with me generating too much of a
"why bother" attitude.
** That's not the point of your interests though and you need to be more
interested in his knowledge than it what you have to impart.
Teachers share their knowledge; learners share in the knowledge of
others. You want to set the example of a learner. **
Holly, I'm not getting this. Would you give me an example, either from
your life or hypothetical?
** So share it with him and your husband...**
I had read it at the library while my husband and kid played at the
park. I showed it to my husband, there, when he arrived. (He read it
silently.) If we had been at home, where we could be as loud as we
wanted, I guess I could have shared it with my husband (and potentially
my son) by reading it aloud. OK.
** With him! With him! With him! Answering questions is not a
discussion.**
We may be getting down to the crux here. I'd rather discuss politics
with an informed adult who remembers the last 5 presidential elections.
** Ds and I had a discussion recently. He was upset that I didn't make
him write when he was a child. I explained my options; I could have
made him and he'd be able to write but would hate it because it
seemed to be so difficult or I could wait until he was ready. Given
the alternative, he realized that I made a good choice.**
Good reminder.
** You didn't talk back, we're *discussing* it.**
OK, great. Sometimes the distinction gets a little blurry. I didn't
want to bend your feelings. <g>
Betsy
it interesting (boys and dueling!) or had his own ideas on the
subject. How is he going to learn to share his learning passions
with you if you don't share yours with him?**
Some shouted info he definitely heard. <g> He wasn't "excluded", anyway.
It makes sense to me to share information with him if I think he will
find it interesting. I don't share stuff that I think he would have no
reason to be interested in. (I tend to think that my tastes aren't
shared by most people. <g> I learned in elementary school that I was
weird and different.) However some stuff seemed to be of greater
interest to my husband, who loves history, knows the names of the
people, and has an adult understanding of political issues.
Maybe I just don't know how to translate a great anecdote from an adult
source into a good soundbite for a younger person. And maybe this is
just a "negativity" thing on my part with me generating too much of a
"why bother" attitude.
** That's not the point of your interests though and you need to be more
interested in his knowledge than it what you have to impart.
Teachers share their knowledge; learners share in the knowledge of
others. You want to set the example of a learner. **
Holly, I'm not getting this. Would you give me an example, either from
your life or hypothetical?
** So share it with him and your husband...**
I had read it at the library while my husband and kid played at the
park. I showed it to my husband, there, when he arrived. (He read it
silently.) If we had been at home, where we could be as loud as we
wanted, I guess I could have shared it with my husband (and potentially
my son) by reading it aloud. OK.
** With him! With him! With him! Answering questions is not a
discussion.**
We may be getting down to the crux here. I'd rather discuss politics
with an informed adult who remembers the last 5 presidential elections.
** Ds and I had a discussion recently. He was upset that I didn't make
him write when he was a child. I explained my options; I could have
made him and he'd be able to write but would hate it because it
seemed to be so difficult or I could wait until he was ready. Given
the alternative, he realized that I made a good choice.**
Good reminder.
** You didn't talk back, we're *discussing* it.**
OK, great. Sometimes the distinction gets a little blurry. I didn't
want to bend your feelings. <g>
Betsy
Queana
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 7:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Unschooling and "gifted" children
I have a few recommendations.
<< I
already know many of their interests and passions, since they have
taught themselves most of what they know anyway; they certainly haven�t
learned it in school. >>
HYPERLINK
"http://sandradodd.com/wordswords"http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
It's about the difference between "teach" and "learn" and the change it
will
make in your thinking to consider them carefully. If you say "They
learned
most of what they know on their own anyway," it seems like just a little
change, but it will change everything.
[***] You're right. I guess as a teacher (even one who is disillusioned
with institutional education) I have a ways to go to get out of the
whole teaching mentality.
-=-I wondered if there are any resources or discussion lists
specifically
about unschooling academically �gifted� children, or if there is any
difference at all. -=-
I'm sure there are lists about academically gifted children, out the
wazoo.
I'm sure unschooling works the same way regardless.
I'm positive that those labels do as much harm as others.
[***] Really? I haven't told my kids they are "gifted"; but I do tell
them they're brilliant, and smart and that they blow me away when they
do. What is harmful about that (not meant to be snarky, I am curious as
to your opinion)? I also tell them they are adorable, and that they are
sweet, or generous or caring or however I perceive them acting at the
time. I sometimes call them dorks or buttnutts or boogerheads too.
-=-I would like some input from others who are experienced
with this particular area. Any book recommendations?-=-
Howard Gardner's Frames of Mind helped me a lot.
You don't have to read it cover to cover, just familiarize yourself with
the
gist of it (if you don't have much time, and few parents of younger kids
have
tons of extra time).
-=- I also wondered how I would be able to keep up with them in
an unschooling setting. -=-
It's not a race. You don't need to keep up with them, but if you're all
there in the same place, it's easy to spark each others' curiosity about
all kinds
of things.
HYPERLINK "http://sandradodd.com/museum"http://sandradodd.com/museum
(Your House as a Museum)
HYPERLINK
"http://sandradodd.com/checklists"http://sandradodd.com/checklists
(Disposable Checklists for Unschoolers)
[***]Thanks for the recommendations.
-= Am I setting myself for failure? -=-
No, but you'll do better when you let go of the "smart" measurements and
comparisons for them and you too.
[***] Why? Obviously they will pick it up on their own, but what's
wrong with praising their strengths? I don't tell them they are smarter
than everyone else or anything, but I do compliment them on the way they
think, their creativity, etc. when appropriate. I am sure they realize
(or will eventually) that they are smarter than other people, and that
some other people are smarter than they are (by "smart" I am probably
not entirely correctly meaning ability to recall information, ability to
process thought very quickly, ability to learn new things very easily,
etc.). Is there something wrong with that realization? Not that it
should be used to make a value judgment, but it is useful information
for life (at least I think it has been for me). Your thoughts are
appreciated.
Q
-=- Is it unschooling to let them have lessons that they ask
for in certain areas? -=-
I'm tiling a shower. Slowly and cautiously. If I were a friend of
yours and
said I was nervous and wanted help and ideas, how would you help me?
Maybe
you already know, or maybe you could find me a book, or recommend a
friend who
has done it, or a webpage, or a video.
-=-My 5 year old wanted to learn Spanish so bad, so
a friend of mine is helping him learn it (I don�t know it).-=-
DVDs are phenomenal resources, because you can change the language
track.
Sandra
---
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From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 7:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Unschooling and "gifted" children
I have a few recommendations.
<< I
already know many of their interests and passions, since they have
taught themselves most of what they know anyway; they certainly haven�t
learned it in school. >>
HYPERLINK
"http://sandradodd.com/wordswords"http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
It's about the difference between "teach" and "learn" and the change it
will
make in your thinking to consider them carefully. If you say "They
learned
most of what they know on their own anyway," it seems like just a little
change, but it will change everything.
[***] You're right. I guess as a teacher (even one who is disillusioned
with institutional education) I have a ways to go to get out of the
whole teaching mentality.
-=-I wondered if there are any resources or discussion lists
specifically
about unschooling academically �gifted� children, or if there is any
difference at all. -=-
I'm sure there are lists about academically gifted children, out the
wazoo.
I'm sure unschooling works the same way regardless.
I'm positive that those labels do as much harm as others.
[***] Really? I haven't told my kids they are "gifted"; but I do tell
them they're brilliant, and smart and that they blow me away when they
do. What is harmful about that (not meant to be snarky, I am curious as
to your opinion)? I also tell them they are adorable, and that they are
sweet, or generous or caring or however I perceive them acting at the
time. I sometimes call them dorks or buttnutts or boogerheads too.
-=-I would like some input from others who are experienced
with this particular area. Any book recommendations?-=-
Howard Gardner's Frames of Mind helped me a lot.
You don't have to read it cover to cover, just familiarize yourself with
the
gist of it (if you don't have much time, and few parents of younger kids
have
tons of extra time).
-=- I also wondered how I would be able to keep up with them in
an unschooling setting. -=-
It's not a race. You don't need to keep up with them, but if you're all
there in the same place, it's easy to spark each others' curiosity about
all kinds
of things.
HYPERLINK "http://sandradodd.com/museum"http://sandradodd.com/museum
(Your House as a Museum)
HYPERLINK
"http://sandradodd.com/checklists"http://sandradodd.com/checklists
(Disposable Checklists for Unschoolers)
[***]Thanks for the recommendations.
-= Am I setting myself for failure? -=-
No, but you'll do better when you let go of the "smart" measurements and
comparisons for them and you too.
[***] Why? Obviously they will pick it up on their own, but what's
wrong with praising their strengths? I don't tell them they are smarter
than everyone else or anything, but I do compliment them on the way they
think, their creativity, etc. when appropriate. I am sure they realize
(or will eventually) that they are smarter than other people, and that
some other people are smarter than they are (by "smart" I am probably
not entirely correctly meaning ability to recall information, ability to
process thought very quickly, ability to learn new things very easily,
etc.). Is there something wrong with that realization? Not that it
should be used to make a value judgment, but it is useful information
for life (at least I think it has been for me). Your thoughts are
appreciated.
Q
-=- Is it unschooling to let them have lessons that they ask
for in certain areas? -=-
I'm tiling a shower. Slowly and cautiously. If I were a friend of
yours and
said I was nervous and wanted help and ideas, how would you help me?
Maybe
you already know, or maybe you could find me a book, or recommend a
friend who
has done it, or a webpage, or a video.
-=-My 5 year old wanted to learn Spanish so bad, so
a friend of mine is helping him learn it (I don�t know it).-=-
DVDs are phenomenal resources, because you can change the language
track.
Sandra
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.824 / Virus Database: 562 - Release Date: 12/28/2004
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]