Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: a difficult problem (Resolved, thank you all!...
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/28/2004 12:21:11 PM Central Standard Time,
crrbuddy@... writes:
I have to disagree that it's good advice to get involved with any
social service type of agency -- including domestic abuse resources
which are closely tied with government assistance programs, if not
partially/fully funded as such.
~~~
Most of the women's services organizations that I know of are struggling for
the financial means to do everything they need to do. There's not a deep
government pocket for them to dig in. They are women helping women, and they
do it *because* there is abuse in the home. If there is no abuse, you
probably don't need their services!
There's more to abuse than violence.
order to resolve a conflict or challenge of any kind. <<
If all our lives were oh so perfect!
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
crrbuddy@... writes:
I have to disagree that it's good advice to get involved with any
social service type of agency -- including domestic abuse resources
which are closely tied with government assistance programs, if not
partially/fully funded as such.
~~~
Most of the women's services organizations that I know of are struggling for
the financial means to do everything they need to do. There's not a deep
government pocket for them to dig in. They are women helping women, and they
do it *because* there is abuse in the home. If there is no abuse, you
probably don't need their services!
>>I prefer to deal with my personal business in the privacy of my ownhoe, as long as there is no physical threat to life or limb. <<
There's more to abuse than violence.
>> It's been a great comfort to discover that I do nothave to physically remove myself or anyone else from the premises in
order to resolve a conflict or challenge of any kind. <<
If all our lives were oh so perfect!
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Penne & Buddies
--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
any
are struggling for
programs are government-free, and even if they are not subsidized,
sooner or later, these women are "set free" to fend for themselves
and may end up with nowhere to turn but the government, which sets
them up for reliance on social programs and potential interference
from so-called child protective services -- even if there are
relatives standing by to help.
This is an aspect of the system which most Americans are naively
unaware -- there's no profit in keeping families intact or bringing
them back together, but there is plenty to be had in playing the
foster care/adoption game with our children. The best way to keep
the funds rolling in is to divide and conquer -- separate the
parents first by making sure one admits to being a victim (whether
or not this is the actual case is not the main concern,) then
require legal and physical separation upon threat of removal of the
children. There is no plan to reconcile the family or offer any
tangible assistance, which leaves the mother vulnerable to further
interference with the threat of losing her children hanging over her
head all the while.
This is the tragic scenario we've heard from family after family who
started out crying abuse based on false or imagined allegations and
ended up in real despair outside the home. My grandniece's family
was nearly one of those statistics, but they persevered through the
CPS nightmare and lived to tell the tale. I don't want to
alarm "Irene" -- just want to be sure that she is fully informed
about the hazards of claiming serious charges against the father of
her children.
They are women helping women, and they
which is what they did to my grandniece as a preschooler. I was
waiting for them to "recover" some memories from her mother as well,
in order to heap more molestation charges on the accused (her
stepdad.) Thankfully, the pseudo-psychiatrists in the guise of CPS
did not take it that far nor have the child removed from her home
(she was living with her parents at the time.)
Instead, they drug her stepfather (who had a spotless record before
this incident) away, and set an exhorbitant bail. He languished in
jail for months before the judge decided there was insufficient
evidence to prosecute. The man's marriage and career, not to
mention his reputation, was nearly destroyed by this ordeal.
Now, this is just one example. As others have said, there was never
any indication of physical abuse in "Irene's" messages when we were
all discussing the pros and cons of her & the children leaving
home. I missed Erica's message completely until I came across this
one, and realized that we were posting at approximately the same
time. I hadn't looked back thinking that I was caught up with the
thread by then. I hear a lot of fear and judgment based on past
experience in her sister's posts, but to say "Irene" is in denial
may be as untrue as saying that her husband's behavior is abusive.
of my own
[PA] Yet, the term "abuse" itself is abused and used for something
as commonplace as a lovers' quarrel. I'm sensitive to this as my
DIL was self-diagnosing her problems as abuse and co-dependency,
etc., etc., and I asked her to define exactly what those terms mean
to her. IOW, are she and her baby daughter really in a better place
now that she and my son have alienated themselves from each other
over what they admit to be petty misunderstandings, immature
outbursts, and frustrated communique?
Yes, I have a new perspective on the idea of "violence" since
learning about Nonviolent (Compassionate) Communication, but in the
absence of a serious physical threat to life or limb -- I would
personally think twice before abandoning my partner and my marriage
with no warning whatsoever (again, unless I had reason to fear an
emotional breakdown, outrage, and physical abuse to follow.)
If "Irene" has already suffered a black eye, then it's a question of
whether it was an isolated incident perhaps due to one too many
under the strain of circumstances. I'm not justifying it, just
trying to understand if this is a casual beer drinkin' guy or if
he's on the verge of not being able to function due to his substance
abuse problem. Assuming he's bringing home the bacon and "Irene's"
a SAHM, I'm not sure where this diagnosis is coming from or if it's
a judgment call or simply fear of where things may be headed based
on past experience.
I think it's a shame to rip this man's life apart without warning or
counseling on one end or the other -- I know my husband isn't always
Mr. Nice Guy, and I might label some of his remarks obnoxious, but
not abusive, but it would devastate him if I made that kind of
decision. Of course, if he ever hit me (even once) he would be
extremely sorry for it because I would never let him live it down.
In the first years of our marriage, I got a little too up close and
personal with my DH regarding something that was causing me
distress, and he pushed me backward a foot or so (never let go) till
I got the message to back off. I was livid that he laid his hands on
me(!) and reduced to tears, so yes, I completely understand that
there's more to it than meets the eye (no pun intended) -- I would
still be very careful to apply the label "abuse" with the wide
variety of definitions (from benign to criminal) being tossed around
ever-so-liberally these days.
and yes, it's easier said than done, but our lives don't have to be
perfect to make a change for the better and put this into practice.
On the contrary, it's even more important to understand that there
are options within and that nothing and no one without can determine
the state of our being -- especially in what appears to be
challenging circumstances. This is essential to our Spiritual,
Physical, and Mental welfare (and that's no SPaM!)
Bottom line, it's wise to be wary of any helpful "services" which
advocate extreme actions, unless the circumstances truly warrant a
complete detachment from another (and I think this must be much
rarer than is commonly believed.) If the husband/parent is truly
abusive, he should be criminally prosecuted to the fullest extent of
the law and placed in rehab, FWIW.
Unless the black eye was documented as domestic abuse and charges
filed, I'm afraid that "Irene" won't have much of a case against her
husband and leaving him will no doubt provoke him to anger. Not to
say that she should stick around to gather "evidence," but only she
can determine if she has taken every step possible to correct the
problem before making a break. I thought that this thread was all
about helping "Irene" find some new ways to approach this problem,
and now she's back to square one -- love him or leave him. There
must be a happy medium there somewhere.
One last thing, unless we're missing something -- this man appears
to be little or no threat to the children if they have the courage
to ignore his requests outright (and perhaps "sass" him back,) but I
could be wrong. My dad was no saint, but he had a lot of patience
with my attitude in the teen years and refrained from bopping me
when he had the opportunity. Same with my DH. All-in-all, it's
much easier to work on healing and reconciliation while together as
a family than when separated emotionally or physically.
Just my two cents and a plate o' pasta ~
Penne
http://connections.ardfamilyco-op.net/pdacard1.jpg
Resource for Compassionate Conflict Resolution:
Center for Nonviolent Communication
http://www.cnvc.org
>[PA] I have to disagree that it's good advice to get involved with
> In a message dated 12/28/2004 12:21:11 PM Central Standard Time,
> crrbuddy@y... writes:
>
any
> social service type of agency -- including domestic abuseresources
> which are closely tied with government assistance programs, ifnot
> partially/fully funded as such.[Karen] Most of the women's services organizations that I know of
>
>
> ~~~
>
are struggling for
> the financial means to do everything they need to do. There's nota deep
> government pocket for them to dig in.[PA] I don't know if it's accurate to say "most" women's service
programs are government-free, and even if they are not subsidized,
sooner or later, these women are "set free" to fend for themselves
and may end up with nowhere to turn but the government, which sets
them up for reliance on social programs and potential interference
from so-called child protective services -- even if there are
relatives standing by to help.
This is an aspect of the system which most Americans are naively
unaware -- there's no profit in keeping families intact or bringing
them back together, but there is plenty to be had in playing the
foster care/adoption game with our children. The best way to keep
the funds rolling in is to divide and conquer -- separate the
parents first by making sure one admits to being a victim (whether
or not this is the actual case is not the main concern,) then
require legal and physical separation upon threat of removal of the
children. There is no plan to reconcile the family or offer any
tangible assistance, which leaves the mother vulnerable to further
interference with the threat of losing her children hanging over her
head all the while.
This is the tragic scenario we've heard from family after family who
started out crying abuse based on false or imagined allegations and
ended up in real despair outside the home. My grandniece's family
was nearly one of those statistics, but they persevered through the
CPS nightmare and lived to tell the tale. I don't want to
alarm "Irene" -- just want to be sure that she is fully informed
about the hazards of claiming serious charges against the father of
her children.
They are women helping women, and they
> do it *because* there is abuse in the home. If there is noabuse, you
> probably don't need their services![PA] Unless one has been wrongly convinced that one is a victim,
which is what they did to my grandniece as a preschooler. I was
waiting for them to "recover" some memories from her mother as well,
in order to heap more molestation charges on the accused (her
stepdad.) Thankfully, the pseudo-psychiatrists in the guise of CPS
did not take it that far nor have the child removed from her home
(she was living with her parents at the time.)
Instead, they drug her stepfather (who had a spotless record before
this incident) away, and set an exhorbitant bail. He languished in
jail for months before the judge decided there was insufficient
evidence to prosecute. The man's marriage and career, not to
mention his reputation, was nearly destroyed by this ordeal.
Now, this is just one example. As others have said, there was never
any indication of physical abuse in "Irene's" messages when we were
all discussing the pros and cons of her & the children leaving
home. I missed Erica's message completely until I came across this
one, and realized that we were posting at approximately the same
time. I hadn't looked back thinking that I was caught up with the
thread by then. I hear a lot of fear and judgment based on past
experience in her sister's posts, but to say "Irene" is in denial
may be as untrue as saying that her husband's behavior is abusive.
>[PA] > >>I prefer to deal with my personal business in the privacy
of my own
> hoe, as long as there is no physical threat to life or limb. <<[Karen] There's more to abuse than violence.
>
[PA] Yet, the term "abuse" itself is abused and used for something
as commonplace as a lovers' quarrel. I'm sensitive to this as my
DIL was self-diagnosing her problems as abuse and co-dependency,
etc., etc., and I asked her to define exactly what those terms mean
to her. IOW, are she and her baby daughter really in a better place
now that she and my son have alienated themselves from each other
over what they admit to be petty misunderstandings, immature
outbursts, and frustrated communique?
Yes, I have a new perspective on the idea of "violence" since
learning about Nonviolent (Compassionate) Communication, but in the
absence of a serious physical threat to life or limb -- I would
personally think twice before abandoning my partner and my marriage
with no warning whatsoever (again, unless I had reason to fear an
emotional breakdown, outrage, and physical abuse to follow.)
If "Irene" has already suffered a black eye, then it's a question of
whether it was an isolated incident perhaps due to one too many
under the strain of circumstances. I'm not justifying it, just
trying to understand if this is a casual beer drinkin' guy or if
he's on the verge of not being able to function due to his substance
abuse problem. Assuming he's bringing home the bacon and "Irene's"
a SAHM, I'm not sure where this diagnosis is coming from or if it's
a judgment call or simply fear of where things may be headed based
on past experience.
I think it's a shame to rip this man's life apart without warning or
counseling on one end or the other -- I know my husband isn't always
Mr. Nice Guy, and I might label some of his remarks obnoxious, but
not abusive, but it would devastate him if I made that kind of
decision. Of course, if he ever hit me (even once) he would be
extremely sorry for it because I would never let him live it down.
In the first years of our marriage, I got a little too up close and
personal with my DH regarding something that was causing me
distress, and he pushed me backward a foot or so (never let go) till
I got the message to back off. I was livid that he laid his hands on
me(!) and reduced to tears, so yes, I completely understand that
there's more to it than meets the eye (no pun intended) -- I would
still be very careful to apply the label "abuse" with the wide
variety of definitions (from benign to criminal) being tossed around
ever-so-liberally these days.
>[PA] >> It's been a great comfort to discover that I do not
> have to physically remove myself or anyone else from the premisesin
> order to resolve a conflict or challenge of any kind. <<[Karen] If all our lives were oh so perfect!
>
>Well, we can dream, can't we?! Yes, I was talking about the ideal
> Karen
>
and yes, it's easier said than done, but our lives don't have to be
perfect to make a change for the better and put this into practice.
On the contrary, it's even more important to understand that there
are options within and that nothing and no one without can determine
the state of our being -- especially in what appears to be
challenging circumstances. This is essential to our Spiritual,
Physical, and Mental welfare (and that's no SPaM!)
Bottom line, it's wise to be wary of any helpful "services" which
advocate extreme actions, unless the circumstances truly warrant a
complete detachment from another (and I think this must be much
rarer than is commonly believed.) If the husband/parent is truly
abusive, he should be criminally prosecuted to the fullest extent of
the law and placed in rehab, FWIW.
Unless the black eye was documented as domestic abuse and charges
filed, I'm afraid that "Irene" won't have much of a case against her
husband and leaving him will no doubt provoke him to anger. Not to
say that she should stick around to gather "evidence," but only she
can determine if she has taken every step possible to correct the
problem before making a break. I thought that this thread was all
about helping "Irene" find some new ways to approach this problem,
and now she's back to square one -- love him or leave him. There
must be a happy medium there somewhere.
One last thing, unless we're missing something -- this man appears
to be little or no threat to the children if they have the courage
to ignore his requests outright (and perhaps "sass" him back,) but I
could be wrong. My dad was no saint, but he had a lot of patience
with my attitude in the teen years and refrained from bopping me
when he had the opportunity. Same with my DH. All-in-all, it's
much easier to work on healing and reconciliation while together as
a family than when separated emotionally or physically.
Just my two cents and a plate o' pasta ~
Penne
http://connections.ardfamilyco-op.net/pdacard1.jpg
Resource for Compassionate Conflict Resolution:
Center for Nonviolent Communication
http://www.cnvc.org
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/31/2004 2:39:30 PM Central Standard Time,
crrbuddy@... writes:
I don't know if it's accurate to say "most" women's service
programs are government-free,
~~~
I didn't say that. I said most of the ones that *I know of*.
~~~
a judgment call or simply fear of where things may be headed based
on past experience. <<
Irene sat in my kitchen on Wednesday and told me more than she had to for me
to believe her. I believe her. She has a right to be believed.
~~~
to ignore his requests outright (and perhaps "sass" him back,) but I
could be wrong. <<
~~~
He was no threat until now.
Irene is the one who will make the choices she makes for her life. She came
here for help, and she told me she's found all the responses helpful in some
way. But I believe the situation is beyond reconciliation without drastic
action first. At the very least something has to happen to protect the
children from being called "homeschools" as if that means they're hopelessly
stupid. His communication is violent. She still calls hiim "Honey" when trying
to reason with him. There's no reasoning with him at this point, from all I
know of the situation.
Karen.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
crrbuddy@... writes:
I don't know if it's accurate to say "most" women's service
programs are government-free,
~~~
I didn't say that. I said most of the ones that *I know of*.
~~~
>>Assuming he's bringing home the bacon and "Irene's"a SAHM, I'm not sure where this diagnosis is coming from or if it's
a judgment call or simply fear of where things may be headed based
on past experience. <<
Irene sat in my kitchen on Wednesday and told me more than she had to for me
to believe her. I believe her. She has a right to be believed.
~~~
>>One last thing, unless we're missing something -- this man appearsto be little or no threat to the children if they have the courage
to ignore his requests outright (and perhaps "sass" him back,) but I
could be wrong. <<
~~~
He was no threat until now.
Irene is the one who will make the choices she makes for her life. She came
here for help, and she told me she's found all the responses helpful in some
way. But I believe the situation is beyond reconciliation without drastic
action first. At the very least something has to happen to protect the
children from being called "homeschools" as if that means they're hopelessly
stupid. His communication is violent. She still calls hiim "Honey" when trying
to reason with him. There's no reasoning with him at this point, from all I
know of the situation.
Karen.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/31/2004 1:39:08 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
crrbuddy@... writes:
Not to
say that she should stick around to gather "evidence," but only she
can determine if she has taken every step possible to correct the
problem before making a break. I thought that this thread was all
about helping "Irene" find some new ways to approach this problem,
and now she's back to square one -- love him or leave him. There
must be a happy medium there somewhere.
-------------
I agree, but it seems more that the mom was wanting a committee to rubber
stamp her intent to leave and it wasn't about unschooling after all.
Some of the posts made me truly cranky, because of the many dire
possibilities that seemed to be blithely ignored. "Get divorced" is some of that easy
advice to find anywhere, along with "just put the kids in school." Tra la.
Like that makes life easy the next morning. It does not.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
crrbuddy@... writes:
Not to
say that she should stick around to gather "evidence," but only she
can determine if she has taken every step possible to correct the
problem before making a break. I thought that this thread was all
about helping "Irene" find some new ways to approach this problem,
and now she's back to square one -- love him or leave him. There
must be a happy medium there somewhere.
-------------
I agree, but it seems more that the mom was wanting a committee to rubber
stamp her intent to leave and it wasn't about unschooling after all.
Some of the posts made me truly cranky, because of the many dire
possibilities that seemed to be blithely ignored. "Get divorced" is some of that easy
advice to find anywhere, along with "just put the kids in school." Tra la.
Like that makes life easy the next morning. It does not.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
steffieb28
I can see why women of abusiers stay. This is truley unbeilvable to me. You all say give him another chance assuming I havent given him any yet. You make assumptions that i havent tried every avenue. Why would anyone think that I would have the power to change another human. Counsling is only good when both people are willing to accept and take responsiblility for their actions. Its crazy to bother trying when one of the parteners is placing blame souly on the other. Not to mention I dont want to go to counsling. I've been, and it didnt work. I come away feeling guilty for wanting peace in my life, as if that is something I dont have the right to have. I shouldnt have to go into the details of my marriage. Its none of your business to be quite frank. The problem at hand was the verbal abuse that my kids endure from their dad because they are unschooled/homeschooled. Is that ok? I know you all are saying No, but some of you havent told me yet how to change that. Amazing huh, cant tell
me can you, sure lots of resources I could use to help him right, but what if he doesnt want to be helped. Then what? I just stay and let myself and my kids be verbaly abused everyday of our lives, always walking on eggshells because we never know if he will be mad that day or not. Or better yet I take their rights away and put them back in school. All of the senerios that you all are saying I should 'try" go along with what he wants, not what the other 4 people in the house want. Oh and he is not the only one who works. I work a 40 hour a week job for the same company as him, I just get to stay at home. I have had my right for peace taken from me and my kids for way to long.
Just so you all know there has been physical abuse, he has grabbed me on several occassions and left bruises. Not to mention blackened my eye, drunk or not, he still did it. He walked away with nothing but a sick stomach. That is documented, the cops came and seperated us. Luckily the kids were not there to see it.
I am not ruining his name he is doing that all on his own.
I for one am starting to get really upset with the help the husband comments. Thats what got me here to begin with, I was always trying to help him. Make him happy, give him peace, give him love, ect....now look at me. Still here in the same place sick to death of listening to his degrating sarcasim. I am not saying every woman should leave at the first sign of unhappiness, but if you have lived with unhappiness for more than a year I would say it was time to find a different avenue. Leaving isnt the answer, finding my power and taking it back is. What I do with it is still yet to be decided. I can say though if I leave it will be because there was no resolution to this problem, not because I am some selfish woman who got pissed off at her husband because he wouldnt watch the kids so she could get her nails done. I have been far from selfish. This isnt just about me anyway, its about the well-being of my kids and their futures. They have a right to have peace in their lives just as
you do. that is all I am really asking for. The right to wake up and not be yelled at or flipped off, just for being alive......
As far as i am concerned this is about unschooling because its about my kids rights being imposed upon. They are not allowed to learn in a peaceful enviroment free from critisims and sarcasim.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
me can you, sure lots of resources I could use to help him right, but what if he doesnt want to be helped. Then what? I just stay and let myself and my kids be verbaly abused everyday of our lives, always walking on eggshells because we never know if he will be mad that day or not. Or better yet I take their rights away and put them back in school. All of the senerios that you all are saying I should 'try" go along with what he wants, not what the other 4 people in the house want. Oh and he is not the only one who works. I work a 40 hour a week job for the same company as him, I just get to stay at home. I have had my right for peace taken from me and my kids for way to long.
Just so you all know there has been physical abuse, he has grabbed me on several occassions and left bruises. Not to mention blackened my eye, drunk or not, he still did it. He walked away with nothing but a sick stomach. That is documented, the cops came and seperated us. Luckily the kids were not there to see it.
I am not ruining his name he is doing that all on his own.
I for one am starting to get really upset with the help the husband comments. Thats what got me here to begin with, I was always trying to help him. Make him happy, give him peace, give him love, ect....now look at me. Still here in the same place sick to death of listening to his degrating sarcasim. I am not saying every woman should leave at the first sign of unhappiness, but if you have lived with unhappiness for more than a year I would say it was time to find a different avenue. Leaving isnt the answer, finding my power and taking it back is. What I do with it is still yet to be decided. I can say though if I leave it will be because there was no resolution to this problem, not because I am some selfish woman who got pissed off at her husband because he wouldnt watch the kids so she could get her nails done. I have been far from selfish. This isnt just about me anyway, its about the well-being of my kids and their futures. They have a right to have peace in their lives just as
you do. that is all I am really asking for. The right to wake up and not be yelled at or flipped off, just for being alive......
As far as i am concerned this is about unschooling because its about my kids rights being imposed upon. They are not allowed to learn in a peaceful enviroment free from critisims and sarcasim.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/31/2004 8:13:44 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
steffieb28@... writes:
I can see why women of abusiers stay. This is truley unbeilvable to me. You
all say give him another chance assuming I havent given him any yet. You make
assumptions that i havent tried every avenue
---------------------------
You asked for advice.
If you already knew what you were going to do, you were only wasting my
time, and in turn I wasted this group's time.
-=-Counsling is only good when both people are willing to accept and take
responsiblility for their actions. Its crazy to bother trying when one of the
parteners is placing blame souly on the other. -=-
That's true.
You're telling us it's all your husband's problem, and not yours or the
kids, and you said you rejected the counsellors' suggestions.
-= I shouldnt have to go into the details of my marriage. Its none of your
business to be quite frank.-=-
No shit.
-=- The problem at hand was the verbal abuse that my kids endure from their
dad because they are unschooled/homeschooled. Is that ok? I know you all are
saying No, but some of you havent told me yet how to change that. -=-
It only takes one person to tell you how to change it, but none of us can do
anything but offer suggestions and things you might not have considered.
You got LOTS of that, and free too. Not one payment to a counsellor, you
didn't have to even get in your car and drive to someone's office. This was free,
and I thought it was pretty thorough and potentially VERY helpful, and now
we're getting jumped all over for it.
-=-Just so you all know there has been physical abuse, he has grabbed me on
several occassions and left bruises. -=-
You wrote in your very first post this:
"My problem lies not with my kids or myself but with my husband. To be frank
he is down right abusive, verbally, not physically."
Just for your information, you were not honest with me and so I'm sorry I
brought this to the list at all.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
steffieb28@... writes:
I can see why women of abusiers stay. This is truley unbeilvable to me. You
all say give him another chance assuming I havent given him any yet. You make
assumptions that i havent tried every avenue
---------------------------
You asked for advice.
If you already knew what you were going to do, you were only wasting my
time, and in turn I wasted this group's time.
-=-Counsling is only good when both people are willing to accept and take
responsiblility for their actions. Its crazy to bother trying when one of the
parteners is placing blame souly on the other. -=-
That's true.
You're telling us it's all your husband's problem, and not yours or the
kids, and you said you rejected the counsellors' suggestions.
-= I shouldnt have to go into the details of my marriage. Its none of your
business to be quite frank.-=-
No shit.
-=- The problem at hand was the verbal abuse that my kids endure from their
dad because they are unschooled/homeschooled. Is that ok? I know you all are
saying No, but some of you havent told me yet how to change that. -=-
It only takes one person to tell you how to change it, but none of us can do
anything but offer suggestions and things you might not have considered.
You got LOTS of that, and free too. Not one payment to a counsellor, you
didn't have to even get in your car and drive to someone's office. This was free,
and I thought it was pretty thorough and potentially VERY helpful, and now
we're getting jumped all over for it.
-=-Just so you all know there has been physical abuse, he has grabbed me on
several occassions and left bruises. -=-
You wrote in your very first post this:
"My problem lies not with my kids or myself but with my husband. To be frank
he is down right abusive, verbally, not physically."
Just for your information, you were not honest with me and so I'm sorry I
brought this to the list at all.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
laurie c
>You have the right to live YOUR life YOUR way and raise your children to the
>As far as i am concerned this is about unschooling because its about my
>kids rights being imposed upon. They are not allowed to learn in a peaceful
>enviroment free from critisims and sarcasim.
>
>
>
>
>You know what you want! You know what is right! You know what you have to
>do! And it sounds to me that you have made up your mind!
best of your ability. Let your heart and mind work together in order to find
the best avenue. Your children will learn from you no matter what you decide
to do. What you have to decide now is do I home school them in this home
under these sercumstances or do I home school them in a peaceful loving
atmosphere where they know they are loved and respected?
Good luck, and by the way you didn't deserve what he did to you and what he
does to you and your children every day. Love your children and yourself
everyday. You are all worth it!!!
>_________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
hthttp://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/31/2004 11:18:34 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
pmocl@... writes:
What you have to decide now is do I home school them in this home
under these sercumstances or do I home school them in a peaceful loving
atmosphere where they know they are loved and respected?
=========
If those were magically the only two choices, it would be easier.
Neither of those is guaranteed.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pmocl@... writes:
What you have to decide now is do I home school them in this home
under these sercumstances or do I home school them in a peaceful loving
atmosphere where they know they are loved and respected?
=========
If those were magically the only two choices, it would be easier.
Neither of those is guaranteed.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/31/2004 10:13:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
steffieb28@... writes:
I can see why women of abusiers stay. This is truley unbeilvable to me. You
all say give him another chance assuming I havent given him any yet. You make
assumptions that i havent tried every avenue. Why would anyone think that I
would have the power to change another human. Counsling is only good when
both people are willing to accept and take responsiblility for their actions.
Its crazy to bother trying when one of the parteners is placing blame souly on
the other. Not to mention I dont want to go to counsling. I've been, and it
didnt work. I come away feeling guilty for wanting peace in my life, as if
that is something I dont have the right to have. <<<<
Well, sorry you weren't pleased with the advice given. Seems you neglected
to tell us a lot of the situation, so it's hard for us to give our best advice
when we've been misled.
I hope you can work it out so that joy becomes a priority.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
steffieb28@... writes:
I can see why women of abusiers stay. This is truley unbeilvable to me. You
all say give him another chance assuming I havent given him any yet. You make
assumptions that i havent tried every avenue. Why would anyone think that I
would have the power to change another human. Counsling is only good when
both people are willing to accept and take responsiblility for their actions.
Its crazy to bother trying when one of the parteners is placing blame souly on
the other. Not to mention I dont want to go to counsling. I've been, and it
didnt work. I come away feeling guilty for wanting peace in my life, as if
that is something I dont have the right to have. <<<<
Well, sorry you weren't pleased with the advice given. Seems you neglected
to tell us a lot of the situation, so it's hard for us to give our best advice
when we've been misled.
I hope you can work it out so that joy becomes a priority.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Penne & Buddies
--- In [email protected], steffieb28
<steffieb28@y...> wrote:
from their dad because they are unschooled/homeschooled. Is that ok?
I know you all are saying No, but some of you havent told me yet how
to change that. Amazing huh, cant tell
let myself and my kids be verbaly abused everyday of our lives,
always walking on eggshells because we never know if he will be mad
that day or not. Or better yet I take their rights away and put them
back in school. All of the senerios that you all are saying I
should 'try" go along with what he wants, not what the other 4
people in the house want. ...
[PA] Steffie, I was under the impression that you and the kids were
seeking peace in your household and offered a way to begin the
process through conflict resolution. It wasn't about helping your
husband, _per se_, it was about helping yourselves and bringing him
along for the ride while you focus on learning better ways to
interact. It's clear that your children, if not you & your spouse,
could use some survival tools in the area of communication. Am I
correct?
I heard that your husband was willing to go to counseling at one
time, so I can only guess that he's not adverse to the idea of
reconciliation through some means, but is probably feeling just as
desperate, trapped, and hopeless by the seeming lack of viable
options at you seem to be. I'd like to know if this is an accurate
depiction of your needs and if you see him also wishing for peace,
understanding, and respect in a different way.
A closer look at Nonviolent Communication (NVC - www.cnvc.org) would
reveal that it is a self-help process (vs. counseling) that requires
no cooperation from others to create lasting and effective change
for everyone's peace of mind. IOW, DH doesn't have to agree to it
or learn it for himself in order for you & the kids to have an
impact on the relationship which will serve your needs for harmony
and understanding (I'm hearing the Fifth Dimension in the background
now :o)
Marshall Rosenberg teaches warring factions both at home and abroad
how to hear criticism as a plea for help rather than a call to arms,
and it works. IMHO, we'll all need to learn this one sooner or
later, if we are to create and maintain healthy relationships.
I hear your distress and frustration at the confusion experienced by
some of us on this list which may come across as harsh and
judgmental. I, for one, neither desired nor requested to hear the
graphic details of your life and marriage as one who usually feels
uncomfortable about revealing intimate details to an audience of
virtual strangers. Yet, many of us needed to understand enough to
justify the advice to go (which seemed radical based on your
original posts) or to stay (which seemed like a reasonable option.)
I heard fear of a custody battle, not fear for your life, in your
initial plea for help in resolving this conflict. I honestly
thought it was a communication issue, as implied by the context of
the situation, and responded accordingly. Now I'm guessing that
your husband was not formally charged in the altercation you
mentioned, and he has refrained from displaying his temper in this
manner in front of the children thus far? No pressure to answer, I
just wanted you to know what I'm hearing in your response.
And after all is said and done, it still appears to me that the
years of conflict have basically worn you both down to a frazzle,
and I'm amazed either one of you has stuck it out this long -- yet
isn't that just as much an indicator that there is mutual concern
for the welfare of the family as it is that someone has been in
denial and under coersion/abusive circumstances for the entire
relationship? What "expert" (lay or professional) is qualified to
determine the mental health of any one individual? It was a shocker
for us to learn that the government has now decided to mandate
mental health screening for all children in the System -- what a
Pandora's box this will open!
Anyway, I'm glad to hear that you are finding some power over your
situation, and that perhaps the decision to leave everything behind
is not final just yet. Before I bow out of this discussion, I
wanted to make sure that you understood my suggestion fully because
your message implied that there was some confusion on this score. I
see NVC as a practical and workable solution to the problem of
communication in the home (in any scenario, but especially if
someone's bark is basically bigger than his bite.)
As I understand it, this naturally leads to better relations in the
family and ultimately to permanent conflict resolution, often easier
and faster than anyone ever thought possible. Life is more perfect
than we realize, if we have eyes to see and a little love in our
hearts (and the world will be a better place, and the world will be
a better place... incurable romantics and flower children sing
along.)
Since you're probably not in the mood for a songfest, would you be
willing to reflect back to me what I said about meeting your own &
your family's needs (kids and/or husband) through conflict
resolution so I can be sure the message came across as intended? It
would give me greater peace of mind knowing that I made myself clear
on the point that I was advocating empowerment through self-reliant
methods of improving communication skills. It's good practice for
me, too!
Keepin' the Faith, Hope, and most of all ~
Love, Penne & the Crew
http;//connections.ardfamilyco-op.net/pdacard1.jpg
<steffieb28@y...> wrote:
><snip> The problem at hand was the verbal abuse that my kids endure
from their dad because they are unschooled/homeschooled. Is that ok?
I know you all are saying No, but some of you havent told me yet how
to change that. Amazing huh, cant tell
> me can you, sure lots of resources I could use to help him right,but what if he doesnt want to be helped. Then what? I just stay and
let myself and my kids be verbaly abused everyday of our lives,
always walking on eggshells because we never know if he will be mad
that day or not. Or better yet I take their rights away and put them
back in school. All of the senerios that you all are saying I
should 'try" go along with what he wants, not what the other 4
people in the house want. ...
[PA] Steffie, I was under the impression that you and the kids were
seeking peace in your household and offered a way to begin the
process through conflict resolution. It wasn't about helping your
husband, _per se_, it was about helping yourselves and bringing him
along for the ride while you focus on learning better ways to
interact. It's clear that your children, if not you & your spouse,
could use some survival tools in the area of communication. Am I
correct?
I heard that your husband was willing to go to counseling at one
time, so I can only guess that he's not adverse to the idea of
reconciliation through some means, but is probably feeling just as
desperate, trapped, and hopeless by the seeming lack of viable
options at you seem to be. I'd like to know if this is an accurate
depiction of your needs and if you see him also wishing for peace,
understanding, and respect in a different way.
A closer look at Nonviolent Communication (NVC - www.cnvc.org) would
reveal that it is a self-help process (vs. counseling) that requires
no cooperation from others to create lasting and effective change
for everyone's peace of mind. IOW, DH doesn't have to agree to it
or learn it for himself in order for you & the kids to have an
impact on the relationship which will serve your needs for harmony
and understanding (I'm hearing the Fifth Dimension in the background
now :o)
Marshall Rosenberg teaches warring factions both at home and abroad
how to hear criticism as a plea for help rather than a call to arms,
and it works. IMHO, we'll all need to learn this one sooner or
later, if we are to create and maintain healthy relationships.
I hear your distress and frustration at the confusion experienced by
some of us on this list which may come across as harsh and
judgmental. I, for one, neither desired nor requested to hear the
graphic details of your life and marriage as one who usually feels
uncomfortable about revealing intimate details to an audience of
virtual strangers. Yet, many of us needed to understand enough to
justify the advice to go (which seemed radical based on your
original posts) or to stay (which seemed like a reasonable option.)
I heard fear of a custody battle, not fear for your life, in your
initial plea for help in resolving this conflict. I honestly
thought it was a communication issue, as implied by the context of
the situation, and responded accordingly. Now I'm guessing that
your husband was not formally charged in the altercation you
mentioned, and he has refrained from displaying his temper in this
manner in front of the children thus far? No pressure to answer, I
just wanted you to know what I'm hearing in your response.
And after all is said and done, it still appears to me that the
years of conflict have basically worn you both down to a frazzle,
and I'm amazed either one of you has stuck it out this long -- yet
isn't that just as much an indicator that there is mutual concern
for the welfare of the family as it is that someone has been in
denial and under coersion/abusive circumstances for the entire
relationship? What "expert" (lay or professional) is qualified to
determine the mental health of any one individual? It was a shocker
for us to learn that the government has now decided to mandate
mental health screening for all children in the System -- what a
Pandora's box this will open!
Anyway, I'm glad to hear that you are finding some power over your
situation, and that perhaps the decision to leave everything behind
is not final just yet. Before I bow out of this discussion, I
wanted to make sure that you understood my suggestion fully because
your message implied that there was some confusion on this score. I
see NVC as a practical and workable solution to the problem of
communication in the home (in any scenario, but especially if
someone's bark is basically bigger than his bite.)
As I understand it, this naturally leads to better relations in the
family and ultimately to permanent conflict resolution, often easier
and faster than anyone ever thought possible. Life is more perfect
than we realize, if we have eyes to see and a little love in our
hearts (and the world will be a better place, and the world will be
a better place... incurable romantics and flower children sing
along.)
Since you're probably not in the mood for a songfest, would you be
willing to reflect back to me what I said about meeting your own &
your family's needs (kids and/or husband) through conflict
resolution so I can be sure the message came across as intended? It
would give me greater peace of mind knowing that I made myself clear
on the point that I was advocating empowerment through self-reliant
methods of improving communication skills. It's good practice for
me, too!
Keepin' the Faith, Hope, and most of all ~
Love, Penne & the Crew
http;//connections.ardfamilyco-op.net/pdacard1.jpg
[email protected]
Irene, this is going to sound ignorant.
Don't take it personally.
The subject is highly personal to you. It couldn't be more personal.
But, the responses have taken a tangent, a rabbit trail into the
hypothetical. It left your personal situation some time ago and became about theory.
The people who are responding don't have all the details of your life, and
they are responding mostly to what's in their imaginations. We do it all the
time here on lists. *All the time*. That's the way lists work. This is what
happens on them.
As your friend, I would suggest that you pretend the posts are not about you
at all. That the posts were about an incomplete fictional character named
Irene. Then reveal what you want on the list to make the character more
developed, and let others do so, as well. In your imagination you can compare
Irene's life with your own, as if you were watching a movie and finding common
ground with your own life. And then, when it gets painful, remember that it's
only a movie, only a fictional character.
I really don't see how being on the list during the rest of the topic is
going to be helpful unless you can compartmentalize it away from the real Irene.
It's kind of like me reading all the Iraq blogs and watching the news and
reading the newspaper. Call me, okay?
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Don't take it personally.
The subject is highly personal to you. It couldn't be more personal.
But, the responses have taken a tangent, a rabbit trail into the
hypothetical. It left your personal situation some time ago and became about theory.
The people who are responding don't have all the details of your life, and
they are responding mostly to what's in their imaginations. We do it all the
time here on lists. *All the time*. That's the way lists work. This is what
happens on them.
As your friend, I would suggest that you pretend the posts are not about you
at all. That the posts were about an incomplete fictional character named
Irene. Then reveal what you want on the list to make the character more
developed, and let others do so, as well. In your imagination you can compare
Irene's life with your own, as if you were watching a movie and finding common
ground with your own life. And then, when it gets painful, remember that it's
only a movie, only a fictional character.
I really don't see how being on the list during the rest of the topic is
going to be helpful unless you can compartmentalize it away from the real Irene.
It's kind of like me reading all the Iraq blogs and watching the news and
reading the newspaper. Call me, okay?
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
steffieb28
Again you are making assumptions. Assuming I had my mind made up when I first sent you the note. I didnt, and still in my message earlier said that if I leave had yet to be decided. You and some of the others have blasted how I should be compassionate to him assuming I never was.The irronic thing about that is there was no compassion being shown to me by some of you, telling me to save my marriage at all costs. Telling me I should seek counsling when I was asking about the unschooling issue and how to handle that. It is obvious to me that you have had no incounters with abuse, and you are far from qualified to even suggest to someone what they should do. The only reason why I sent a message to you in the first place was because you obviously hold a big reputation for being good in the unschooling circle. I was hoping to find answers to my problem on the issue with my kids. I didnt realize you all would take it upon yourself to tell me what I should do in my marriage. There were
several people who informed me that what my husband was doing was far from ok, so that when I started really looking into my marriage. I have lived with this for 30 years, and for you to be ugly and make assumptions to an entire group about me and what I feel was wrong. You had no right. I tried to end the topic by telling you all it was resolved and you continued to talk about me like I had little or no thought on what I was doing. Totally disrepectitng my wish to end a topic about my situation. Not to mention the women who my be lurking about, in the same abusive situaion and now are afraid to talk because some of you are hell bent on getting the abusier help and not the people being beat down. I was trying to say you have no idea what I am really going through and if you dont mind lets let this one go. I had pulled something useful from each comment before and was on the road to getting help. But yet you the moderator continued. I didnt waste the groups time, you did. If you
want to be a goody goody more power to you, but the next time someone comes to you for help about a situation similar to mine, do them a favor and say, I am all for the woman submitting and taking what ever the man has to give so sorry I cant help.....that way there is no miss communication. I admit it I was wrong to think you could help....Peace to all who read this and I am sorry for any inconvience this might have besotowed on you. I have got help and I am thankful that I was able to have several of you so understanding and loving, I will be forever greatful to you. You know who you are...:-)
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 12/31/2004 8:13:44 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
steffieb28@... writes:
I can see why women of abusiers stay. This is truley unbeilvable to me. You
all say give him another chance assuming I havent given him any yet. You make
assumptions that i havent tried every avenue
---------------------------
You asked for advice.
If you already knew what you were going to do, you were only wasting my
time, and in turn I wasted this group's time.
-=-Counsling is only good when both people are willing to accept and take
responsiblility for their actions. Its crazy to bother trying when one of the
parteners is placing blame souly on the other. -=-
That's true.
You're telling us it's all your husband's problem, and not yours or the
kids, and you said you rejected the counsellors' suggestions.
-= I shouldnt have to go into the details of my marriage. Its none of your
business to be quite frank.-=-
No shit.
-=- The problem at hand was the verbal abuse that my kids endure from their
dad because they are unschooled/homeschooled. Is that ok? I know you all are
saying No, but some of you havent told me yet how to change that. -=-
It only takes one person to tell you how to change it, but none of us can do
anything but offer suggestions and things you might not have considered.
You got LOTS of that, and free too. Not one payment to a counsellor, you
didn't have to even get in your car and drive to someone's office. This was free,
and I thought it was pretty thorough and potentially VERY helpful, and now
we're getting jumped all over for it.
-=-Just so you all know there has been physical abuse, he has grabbed me on
several occassions and left bruises. -=-
You wrote in your very first post this:
"My problem lies not with my kids or myself but with my husband. To be frank
he is down right abusive, verbally, not physically."
Just for your information, you were not honest with me and so I'm sorry I
brought this to the list at all.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
several people who informed me that what my husband was doing was far from ok, so that when I started really looking into my marriage. I have lived with this for 30 years, and for you to be ugly and make assumptions to an entire group about me and what I feel was wrong. You had no right. I tried to end the topic by telling you all it was resolved and you continued to talk about me like I had little or no thought on what I was doing. Totally disrepectitng my wish to end a topic about my situation. Not to mention the women who my be lurking about, in the same abusive situaion and now are afraid to talk because some of you are hell bent on getting the abusier help and not the people being beat down. I was trying to say you have no idea what I am really going through and if you dont mind lets let this one go. I had pulled something useful from each comment before and was on the road to getting help. But yet you the moderator continued. I didnt waste the groups time, you did. If you
want to be a goody goody more power to you, but the next time someone comes to you for help about a situation similar to mine, do them a favor and say, I am all for the woman submitting and taking what ever the man has to give so sorry I cant help.....that way there is no miss communication. I admit it I was wrong to think you could help....Peace to all who read this and I am sorry for any inconvience this might have besotowed on you. I have got help and I am thankful that I was able to have several of you so understanding and loving, I will be forever greatful to you. You know who you are...:-)
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 12/31/2004 8:13:44 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
steffieb28@... writes:
I can see why women of abusiers stay. This is truley unbeilvable to me. You
all say give him another chance assuming I havent given him any yet. You make
assumptions that i havent tried every avenue
---------------------------
You asked for advice.
If you already knew what you were going to do, you were only wasting my
time, and in turn I wasted this group's time.
-=-Counsling is only good when both people are willing to accept and take
responsiblility for their actions. Its crazy to bother trying when one of the
parteners is placing blame souly on the other. -=-
That's true.
You're telling us it's all your husband's problem, and not yours or the
kids, and you said you rejected the counsellors' suggestions.
-= I shouldnt have to go into the details of my marriage. Its none of your
business to be quite frank.-=-
No shit.
-=- The problem at hand was the verbal abuse that my kids endure from their
dad because they are unschooled/homeschooled. Is that ok? I know you all are
saying No, but some of you havent told me yet how to change that. -=-
It only takes one person to tell you how to change it, but none of us can do
anything but offer suggestions and things you might not have considered.
You got LOTS of that, and free too. Not one payment to a counsellor, you
didn't have to even get in your car and drive to someone's office. This was free,
and I thought it was pretty thorough and potentially VERY helpful, and now
we're getting jumped all over for it.
-=-Just so you all know there has been physical abuse, he has grabbed me on
several occassions and left bruises. -=-
You wrote in your very first post this:
"My problem lies not with my kids or myself but with my husband. To be frank
he is down right abusive, verbally, not physically."
Just for your information, you were not honest with me and so I'm sorry I
brought this to the list at all.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/1/05 9:34:36 AM, steffieb28@... writes:
<< The irronic thing about that is there was no compassion being shown to me
by some of you, telling me to save my marriage at all costs. Telling me I
should seek counsling when I was asking about the unschooling issue and how to
handle that. >>
Unschooling cannot work if one parent is deadset against it.
I think your story is further evidence of that.
Unschooling can't work if a custody agreement requires school, and many do so.
Unschooling can't work if both parents are having to work fulltime and the
kids are going back and forth between houses, and one parent is deadset against
it.
Unschooling can't work if the mother is the one who wanted to unschool but
she has lost custody entirely.
There's no possible way a thousand unschoolers can advise a way to make
unschooling work in an unworkable situation.
-=-It is obvious to me that you have had no incounters with abuse, and you
are far from qualified to even suggest to someone what they should do. The only
reason why I sent a message to you in the first place was because you
obviously hold a big reputation for being good in the unschooling circle.-=-
You can't tell about encounters with abuse from what was written here.
"Qualified" to suggest?
I asked a list with over 1500 members, who were able (as you were) to join
without proving any qualifications. Each reader needs to be qualified in her
own mind to make decisions based on whatever input she can find. If you want
someone "qualified" to make suggestions, then find a lawyer or a counsellor who
has a license to give you advice in exchange for large sums of money. Good
luck finding one who's even heard of unschooling, though.
If your problem wasn't primarily about unschooling, then you just asked in
the wrong place, and that's not a big deal.
-=-I was hoping to find answers to my problem on the issue with my kids. I
didnt realize you all would take it upon yourself to tell me what I should do in
my marriage. -=-
Your children and decisions about them are part of your marriage. They can't
be separated from that.
-=- I tried to end the topic by telling you all it was resolved and you
continued to talk about me like I had little or no thought on what I was doing. -=-
Here's something Joyce Fetteroll (one of several moderators and one of the
listowners) wrote about how these discussions work:
-------------
The list is about ideas, not about people.
Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone tosses
an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get batted about. At that
point what's going on is no longer about the person who tossed the idea in.
It's about the idea and how well and cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless
the tosser keeps jumping in and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")
Joyce
-------------
Once a discussion begins it has a life of its own.
-=-Totally disrepectitng my wish to end a topic about my situation. Not to
mention the women who my be lurking about, in the same abusive situaion and now
are afraid to talk because some of you are hell bent on getting the abusier
help and not the people being beat down. -=-
Your wishes aren't what drives the unschooling discussion list, though.
And for my part, I want to give advice that helps children first, and mothers
second. Making mothers comfortable at the expense of children is common in
this culture, but not altogether healthy. Unschooling is different, in
needing a situation in which the child's needs are central. It's entirely
understandable that if a mother is NOT in a situation where she can provide that,
unschooling might not be viable until she gets in a safer, more stable place.
Not everyone can unschool. Not everyone can or should.
-=-I was trying to say you have no idea what I am really going through and if
you dont mind lets let this one go.-=-
You can let it go, but now it has come to the point that the real topic is
honesty. If someone comes here with any problem, large or small, and gives us
false information, or changes the story midstream, the feedback isn't as good
as it could have been (on the less irritating side) and it's a waste of our
time (in the more irritating way). And it's worth discussing honesty even if
half the people involved in this discussion are gone.
-=-But yet you the moderator continued. I didnt waste the groups time, you
did.-=-
I was trying to help you, steffieb, voluntarily and as well as I knew how,
which was to ask LOTS of people to help you. They did.
-=- If you want to be a goody goody more power to you,-=-
Y'know what?
I DO want to be a goody goody. I want to continue to volunteer my time to
help other people who ask for help, but every time someone responds as you did,
it makes it a little harder to want to help others.
-= but the next time someone comes to you for help about a situation similar
to mine, do them a favor and say, I am all for the woman submitting and taking
what ever the man has to give so sorry I cant help.....that way there is no
miss communication.-=-
This is bullshit. Either you didn't read carefully what was written and
really think about it, or you're just being malicious. The documentable
miscommunication was yours. On the other end, not ONE PERSON suggested you submit and
take ANYTHING.
-=-Peace to all who read this-=-
It's nonsense to write that after such a wad of hostility.
It's like leaving a sack of flaming dogpoo on a porch, ringing the doorbell
and saying "Have a nice day."
Sandra
<< The irronic thing about that is there was no compassion being shown to me
by some of you, telling me to save my marriage at all costs. Telling me I
should seek counsling when I was asking about the unschooling issue and how to
handle that. >>
Unschooling cannot work if one parent is deadset against it.
I think your story is further evidence of that.
Unschooling can't work if a custody agreement requires school, and many do so.
Unschooling can't work if both parents are having to work fulltime and the
kids are going back and forth between houses, and one parent is deadset against
it.
Unschooling can't work if the mother is the one who wanted to unschool but
she has lost custody entirely.
There's no possible way a thousand unschoolers can advise a way to make
unschooling work in an unworkable situation.
-=-It is obvious to me that you have had no incounters with abuse, and you
are far from qualified to even suggest to someone what they should do. The only
reason why I sent a message to you in the first place was because you
obviously hold a big reputation for being good in the unschooling circle.-=-
You can't tell about encounters with abuse from what was written here.
"Qualified" to suggest?
I asked a list with over 1500 members, who were able (as you were) to join
without proving any qualifications. Each reader needs to be qualified in her
own mind to make decisions based on whatever input she can find. If you want
someone "qualified" to make suggestions, then find a lawyer or a counsellor who
has a license to give you advice in exchange for large sums of money. Good
luck finding one who's even heard of unschooling, though.
If your problem wasn't primarily about unschooling, then you just asked in
the wrong place, and that's not a big deal.
-=-I was hoping to find answers to my problem on the issue with my kids. I
didnt realize you all would take it upon yourself to tell me what I should do in
my marriage. -=-
Your children and decisions about them are part of your marriage. They can't
be separated from that.
-=- I tried to end the topic by telling you all it was resolved and you
continued to talk about me like I had little or no thought on what I was doing. -=-
Here's something Joyce Fetteroll (one of several moderators and one of the
listowners) wrote about how these discussions work:
-------------
The list is about ideas, not about people.
Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone tosses
an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get batted about. At that
point what's going on is no longer about the person who tossed the idea in.
It's about the idea and how well and cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless
the tosser keeps jumping in and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")
Joyce
-------------
Once a discussion begins it has a life of its own.
-=-Totally disrepectitng my wish to end a topic about my situation. Not to
mention the women who my be lurking about, in the same abusive situaion and now
are afraid to talk because some of you are hell bent on getting the abusier
help and not the people being beat down. -=-
Your wishes aren't what drives the unschooling discussion list, though.
And for my part, I want to give advice that helps children first, and mothers
second. Making mothers comfortable at the expense of children is common in
this culture, but not altogether healthy. Unschooling is different, in
needing a situation in which the child's needs are central. It's entirely
understandable that if a mother is NOT in a situation where she can provide that,
unschooling might not be viable until she gets in a safer, more stable place.
Not everyone can unschool. Not everyone can or should.
-=-I was trying to say you have no idea what I am really going through and if
you dont mind lets let this one go.-=-
You can let it go, but now it has come to the point that the real topic is
honesty. If someone comes here with any problem, large or small, and gives us
false information, or changes the story midstream, the feedback isn't as good
as it could have been (on the less irritating side) and it's a waste of our
time (in the more irritating way). And it's worth discussing honesty even if
half the people involved in this discussion are gone.
-=-But yet you the moderator continued. I didnt waste the groups time, you
did.-=-
I was trying to help you, steffieb, voluntarily and as well as I knew how,
which was to ask LOTS of people to help you. They did.
-=- If you want to be a goody goody more power to you,-=-
Y'know what?
I DO want to be a goody goody. I want to continue to volunteer my time to
help other people who ask for help, but every time someone responds as you did,
it makes it a little harder to want to help others.
-= but the next time someone comes to you for help about a situation similar
to mine, do them a favor and say, I am all for the woman submitting and taking
what ever the man has to give so sorry I cant help.....that way there is no
miss communication.-=-
This is bullshit. Either you didn't read carefully what was written and
really think about it, or you're just being malicious. The documentable
miscommunication was yours. On the other end, not ONE PERSON suggested you submit and
take ANYTHING.
-=-Peace to all who read this-=-
It's nonsense to write that after such a wad of hostility.
It's like leaving a sack of flaming dogpoo on a porch, ringing the doorbell
and saying "Have a nice day."
Sandra
Penne & Buddies
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
effectively communicating needs here, eh? Not to justify this
husband's actions (verbal, physical or otherwise) as we really don't
have but one side of the story here and that nowhere near complete --
but if this is an example of the style Steffie uses to get her
point across offline and it played a role in sparking some hostility
(her own and others) on the list in such a short amount of time --
imagine what eleven years of rampant miscommunication has done to
this relationship.
And not to put the blame solely on Steffie's difficulty in
understanding that which was offered in good faith or taking out her
frustration on the group for what she sees as unwarranted judgments
and unrealistic expectations, but I can certainly imagine why it may
have been true that these people were at the point of doing violence
to one another when they first sought marital counseling years ago.
It's a shame that the "expert" they consulted had no more to offer
than any other man on the street.
I don't have much hope that Steffie will explore Nonviolent
Communication or anything else if she has this much resistance to
suggested alternatives, and seems to have skimmed any post which is
not in agreement that she and her children as victims of an abusive
person. I get the impression that it came as a complete surprise to
her when we didn't all immediately see her spouse as an unforgivable
ogre who should be punished for his transgressions against innocent
children, if not their mother.
There is no quick & easy fix to this or any problem, but there are
ways to make it better sooner than later. I devoured all of the
literature on NVC when I first discovered it a month or so ago, and
got my kids involved in making a significant change in the way we
interact. Not to say that we didn't have our share of skeptics who
had seen other methods tried and failed, but we have persevered
through the learning phase and the tension is slowly but surely
dispersing as we learn how to speak "street giraffe." Awesome to
see the whole process work its magic with a little effort...
Steffie, my parents have been struggling in a difficult relationship
for sixty plus years. There is no doubt that there is a deep and
abiding love between them, despite their differences. My siblings
and I picked up on the best and the worst features of that marriage,
and applied it to our own relationships. One of my brothers tied
and loosed the knot (voluntarily and otherwise) three times before
he finally decided life itself wasn't worth the effort. The other
has been through as many engagements for the past thirty years of
adulthood while never once making it all the way to the altar.
My sister and I have held on to our husbands and families for dear
life (both older brides in our mid-twenties -- hers lasting for
thirty-five years now, mine for twenty) for better and for worse,
just like dear old mom (married the year after graduation to her
highschool sweetheart before he headed off to war.) We see it as a
conscientious and informed decision made for our own sakes as well
as for our spouses and children. We are committed to making it work
and have faith that this is entirely possible.
Have we made a grave mistake based on our delusions which will be
passed on to the next generation or will we eventually find a way to
break the cycle like Erica? Again I say, who is qualified to make
that determination? Like I told my stepson when he was going back &
forth between homes, playing one parent against the other, never
facing the situation head-on -- not for lack of desire, but for lack
of the necessary tools to resolve conflict -- if you cannot make
things work for you in your present situation, what are the odds of
success in any other? He is discovering this basic truth for
himself now that he searched for love outside of the family circle
and ended up with another broken home (this time with a child of his
own to deal with the consequences of a failed relationship.)
In my faith this outcome is Scientifically-based -- IOW, the way
Life works. One can ignore or run away from a given problem, but
there's absolutely no way to get around it and move on to the next
level without the knowledge and skills to build a solid foundation.
The basic problem must first be resolved satisfactorily, either here
or hereafter. Losing a person and relationship (tough to do with
kids involved) may seem like the only out, but it is guaranteed to
compound the situation if the basic needs have not been addressed.
Compassionate communication is a -step- in the right direction for
me.
Vayan con Dios, Amigos ~
Penne & the Crew
http://connections.ardfamilyco-op.net/pdacard1.jpg
Nonviolent Conflict Resolution
http;//www.cnvc.org
>part:
> In a message dated 1/1/05 9:34:36 AM, steffieb28@y... writes in
> -=-Peace to all who read this-=-doorbell
>
> It's nonsense to write that after such a wad of hostility.
> It's like leaving a sack of flaming dogpoo on a porch, ringing the
> and saying "Have a nice day."And proof positive that there is a major conflict in honestly and
>
> Sandra
effectively communicating needs here, eh? Not to justify this
husband's actions (verbal, physical or otherwise) as we really don't
have but one side of the story here and that nowhere near complete --
but if this is an example of the style Steffie uses to get her
point across offline and it played a role in sparking some hostility
(her own and others) on the list in such a short amount of time --
imagine what eleven years of rampant miscommunication has done to
this relationship.
And not to put the blame solely on Steffie's difficulty in
understanding that which was offered in good faith or taking out her
frustration on the group for what she sees as unwarranted judgments
and unrealistic expectations, but I can certainly imagine why it may
have been true that these people were at the point of doing violence
to one another when they first sought marital counseling years ago.
It's a shame that the "expert" they consulted had no more to offer
than any other man on the street.
I don't have much hope that Steffie will explore Nonviolent
Communication or anything else if she has this much resistance to
suggested alternatives, and seems to have skimmed any post which is
not in agreement that she and her children as victims of an abusive
person. I get the impression that it came as a complete surprise to
her when we didn't all immediately see her spouse as an unforgivable
ogre who should be punished for his transgressions against innocent
children, if not their mother.
There is no quick & easy fix to this or any problem, but there are
ways to make it better sooner than later. I devoured all of the
literature on NVC when I first discovered it a month or so ago, and
got my kids involved in making a significant change in the way we
interact. Not to say that we didn't have our share of skeptics who
had seen other methods tried and failed, but we have persevered
through the learning phase and the tension is slowly but surely
dispersing as we learn how to speak "street giraffe." Awesome to
see the whole process work its magic with a little effort...
Steffie, my parents have been struggling in a difficult relationship
for sixty plus years. There is no doubt that there is a deep and
abiding love between them, despite their differences. My siblings
and I picked up on the best and the worst features of that marriage,
and applied it to our own relationships. One of my brothers tied
and loosed the knot (voluntarily and otherwise) three times before
he finally decided life itself wasn't worth the effort. The other
has been through as many engagements for the past thirty years of
adulthood while never once making it all the way to the altar.
My sister and I have held on to our husbands and families for dear
life (both older brides in our mid-twenties -- hers lasting for
thirty-five years now, mine for twenty) for better and for worse,
just like dear old mom (married the year after graduation to her
highschool sweetheart before he headed off to war.) We see it as a
conscientious and informed decision made for our own sakes as well
as for our spouses and children. We are committed to making it work
and have faith that this is entirely possible.
Have we made a grave mistake based on our delusions which will be
passed on to the next generation or will we eventually find a way to
break the cycle like Erica? Again I say, who is qualified to make
that determination? Like I told my stepson when he was going back &
forth between homes, playing one parent against the other, never
facing the situation head-on -- not for lack of desire, but for lack
of the necessary tools to resolve conflict -- if you cannot make
things work for you in your present situation, what are the odds of
success in any other? He is discovering this basic truth for
himself now that he searched for love outside of the family circle
and ended up with another broken home (this time with a child of his
own to deal with the consequences of a failed relationship.)
In my faith this outcome is Scientifically-based -- IOW, the way
Life works. One can ignore or run away from a given problem, but
there's absolutely no way to get around it and move on to the next
level without the knowledge and skills to build a solid foundation.
The basic problem must first be resolved satisfactorily, either here
or hereafter. Losing a person and relationship (tough to do with
kids involved) may seem like the only out, but it is guaranteed to
compound the situation if the basic needs have not been addressed.
Compassionate communication is a -step- in the right direction for
me.
Vayan con Dios, Amigos ~
Penne & the Crew
http://connections.ardfamilyco-op.net/pdacard1.jpg
Nonviolent Conflict Resolution
http;//www.cnvc.org
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/1/05 12:05:27 PM, crrbuddy@... writes:
<< It's a shame that the "expert" they consulted had no more to offer
than any other man on the street. >>
And "then just clean the house" if that's anything like the advice that was
given sounds a bit (to me, with my personal prejudices and all) like the advice
of a Christian counsellor, rather than (pardon the dichotomy, and yet also
get over it) a real psychologist. I have friends who went to a Christian
counsellor and all they did was quote Bible verses to them and tell them to love
and respect each other. Yeah. I think they had thought of that, and it wasn't
working. They needed more particulars, and more hand-holding and follow-up.
-=-if you cannot make things work for you in your present situation, what are
the odds of success in any other? -=-
That's a serious question to ask.
If in ANY way a person has contributed to a bad situation, just leaving it
won't make them new and different. And if they justified all their own actions
and responses whether verbal, physical, mental or emotional, they take that
"I'm okay, I don't need to change" mindset with them to the new place.
Sandra
<< It's a shame that the "expert" they consulted had no more to offer
than any other man on the street. >>
And "then just clean the house" if that's anything like the advice that was
given sounds a bit (to me, with my personal prejudices and all) like the advice
of a Christian counsellor, rather than (pardon the dichotomy, and yet also
get over it) a real psychologist. I have friends who went to a Christian
counsellor and all they did was quote Bible verses to them and tell them to love
and respect each other. Yeah. I think they had thought of that, and it wasn't
working. They needed more particulars, and more hand-holding and follow-up.
-=-if you cannot make things work for you in your present situation, what are
the odds of success in any other? -=-
That's a serious question to ask.
If in ANY way a person has contributed to a bad situation, just leaving it
won't make them new and different. And if they justified all their own actions
and responses whether verbal, physical, mental or emotional, they take that
"I'm okay, I don't need to change" mindset with them to the new place.
Sandra
steffieb28
I have to admit that I was hostile towards those of you who were saying get help and try and work through the problems with him. I have been told that so many times and tried it and it never worked. I agree with Sandra and Penne I defenatly see your point now. Not to say that I am withdrawing what I said earlier though, I just could have been a bit nicer about it. I did feel attacked and was venting my frustrations in this matter, for that I appologize. To bad I cant just call you all up and explain it better. I am not wanting anyone to see him with horns, although I know that was the impression I was giving.I can see where I was over reacting to the messages sent. Domestic situations are always hard to deal with and maybe it is something that should be left alone in the future although I have to say I have got a whole heck of a lot of wonderful advice and some advice I wanted to scream at. Overall the experiance has been a great learning tool and I am thankful for the opportunity to
find resources. If I offended any of you I appologize, that wasnt what I was trying to do. I am far to close to this situation to be commenting on it. Its painful and at times I feel trapped, overwhelmed and scared. I was hurt that so many people were making assumptions about my personality when you have never met me before. I should not have taken it as a personal attack but rather one that is fictional as Karen said earlier. I sent the message before I read hers, oops....:-) We are all looking for support here and I have found it. Would it be possible to maybe take me out of the topic if you all want to continue talking about it? This is all I am going to say on the matter now. Im gonna move on to some of the other discussions and see if I cant get some ideas from those. Thank you for your help and letting me see into myself, its been great~~ Stephanie "Irene"
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 1/1/05 12:05:27 PM, crrbuddy@... writes:
<< It's a shame that the "expert" they consulted had no more to offer
than any other man on the street. >>
And "then just clean the house" if that's anything like the advice that was
given sounds a bit (to me, with my personal prejudices and all) like the advice
of a Christian counsellor, rather than (pardon the dichotomy, and yet also
get over it) a real psychologist. I have friends who went to a Christian
counsellor and all they did was quote Bible verses to them and tell them to love
and respect each other. Yeah. I think they had thought of that, and it wasn't
working. They needed more particulars, and more hand-holding and follow-up.
-=-if you cannot make things work for you in your present situation, what are
the odds of success in any other? -=-
That's a serious question to ask.
If in ANY way a person has contributed to a bad situation, just leaving it
won't make them new and different. And if they justified all their own actions
and responses whether verbal, physical, mental or emotional, they take that
"I'm okay, I don't need to change" mindset with them to the new place.
Sandra
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
find resources. If I offended any of you I appologize, that wasnt what I was trying to do. I am far to close to this situation to be commenting on it. Its painful and at times I feel trapped, overwhelmed and scared. I was hurt that so many people were making assumptions about my personality when you have never met me before. I should not have taken it as a personal attack but rather one that is fictional as Karen said earlier. I sent the message before I read hers, oops....:-) We are all looking for support here and I have found it. Would it be possible to maybe take me out of the topic if you all want to continue talking about it? This is all I am going to say on the matter now. Im gonna move on to some of the other discussions and see if I cant get some ideas from those. Thank you for your help and letting me see into myself, its been great~~ Stephanie "Irene"
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 1/1/05 12:05:27 PM, crrbuddy@... writes:
<< It's a shame that the "expert" they consulted had no more to offer
than any other man on the street. >>
And "then just clean the house" if that's anything like the advice that was
given sounds a bit (to me, with my personal prejudices and all) like the advice
of a Christian counsellor, rather than (pardon the dichotomy, and yet also
get over it) a real psychologist. I have friends who went to a Christian
counsellor and all they did was quote Bible verses to them and tell them to love
and respect each other. Yeah. I think they had thought of that, and it wasn't
working. They needed more particulars, and more hand-holding and follow-up.
-=-if you cannot make things work for you in your present situation, what are
the odds of success in any other? -=-
That's a serious question to ask.
If in ANY way a person has contributed to a bad situation, just leaving it
won't make them new and different. And if they justified all their own actions
and responses whether verbal, physical, mental or emotional, they take that
"I'm okay, I don't need to change" mindset with them to the new place.
Sandra
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/1/2005 11:34:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
steffieb28@... writes:
Telling me I should seek counsling when I was asking about the unschooling
issue and how to handle that. <snip> I was hoping to find answers to my
problem on the issue with my kids. I didnt realize you all would take it upon
yourself to tell me what I should do in my marriage. <<<<<
Unschooling as an educational alternative (much less a lifestyle!) can't
happen when one parent is vehemently against it. Or when a judge orders school.
Or when kids are shuffled back & forth in a nasty custody battle.
Folks here gave advice based on the information given----which was that
there WAS no abuse. You're mad at *us* for giving advice that didn't relate to
your situation. If you had been HONEST about your situation, well, maybe the
advice would have been different. No one here would advise staying in an abusive
marriage. But we'd also say that unschooling would be the *least* of your
worries.
You weren't up front in describing your home life, yet *we're* getting
virtually abused by you for giving out reasonable advice---considering the info
that was offered.
We were giving UNSCHOOLING advice----saying that it doesn't work well in
families that don't work well. Fix the family, THEN maybe unschooling can work.
You said nothing of this *monster* you're living with! Please be more honest
when asking for advice.
First----you have no idea who here has had an abusive past.
Second----most of us regular posters certainly know enough about unschooling
to advise that the family needs to be as whole and healthy as possible for
unschooling to work. We were trying to get you to that point. Your misleading
information did NOTHING to get us to realize that there was an extremely
unhealthy situation. DON'T go blaming us.
ok, so that when I started really looking into my marriage. I have lived with
this for 30 years, and for you to be ugly and make assumptions to an entire
group about me and what I feel was wrong.<<<<<
Well, maybe some good DID come out of Sandra's posting this to the list.
Bitch some more, will ya'?
Jeeeezus!
Good luck getting out of your abusive relationship. But I'd advise that
*that* is more important than unschooling. So don't come asking for unschooling
advise until your home-life is an acceptable place to rear a child.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
steffieb28@... writes:
Telling me I should seek counsling when I was asking about the unschooling
issue and how to handle that. <snip> I was hoping to find answers to my
problem on the issue with my kids. I didnt realize you all would take it upon
yourself to tell me what I should do in my marriage. <<<<<
Unschooling as an educational alternative (much less a lifestyle!) can't
happen when one parent is vehemently against it. Or when a judge orders school.
Or when kids are shuffled back & forth in a nasty custody battle.
Folks here gave advice based on the information given----which was that
there WAS no abuse. You're mad at *us* for giving advice that didn't relate to
your situation. If you had been HONEST about your situation, well, maybe the
advice would have been different. No one here would advise staying in an abusive
marriage. But we'd also say that unschooling would be the *least* of your
worries.
You weren't up front in describing your home life, yet *we're* getting
virtually abused by you for giving out reasonable advice---considering the info
that was offered.
We were giving UNSCHOOLING advice----saying that it doesn't work well in
families that don't work well. Fix the family, THEN maybe unschooling can work.
You said nothing of this *monster* you're living with! Please be more honest
when asking for advice.
>>>>>It is obvious to me that you have had no incounters with abuse, and youare far from qualified to even suggest to someone what they should do.<<<<<
First----you have no idea who here has had an abusive past.
Second----most of us regular posters certainly know enough about unschooling
to advise that the family needs to be as whole and healthy as possible for
unschooling to work. We were trying to get you to that point. Your misleading
information did NOTHING to get us to realize that there was an extremely
unhealthy situation. DON'T go blaming us.
>>>>>There wereseveral people who informed me that what my husband was doing was far from
ok, so that when I started really looking into my marriage. I have lived with
this for 30 years, and for you to be ugly and make assumptions to an entire
group about me and what I feel was wrong.<<<<<
Well, maybe some good DID come out of Sandra's posting this to the list.
Bitch some more, will ya'?
Jeeeezus!
Good luck getting out of your abusive relationship. But I'd advise that
*that* is more important than unschooling. So don't come asking for unschooling
advise until your home-life is an acceptable place to rear a child.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/1/05 1:46:42 PM, steffieb28@... writes:
<< I have been told that so many times and tried it and it never worked. >>
All we know is what you wrote.
You chose what to write, you chose to post, and MANY people took the time to
read it.
-=-I agree with Sandra and Penne I defenatly see your point now. Not to say
that I am withdrawing what I said earlier though, I just could have been a bit
nicer about it. -=-
Please, just let it go if you're so frustrated and unhappy about it all.
We're not helping you any, and you're not helping the list with this.
-=To bad I cant just call you all up and explain it better.-=-
We don't need to understand it better. We offered help and now it's yours to
take or to leave.
-=Domestic situations are always hard to deal with and maybe it is something
that should be left alone in the future-=-
You want the list to have a policy of not commenting on families dynamics?
That's what most of the discussions are about.
-=-I am far to close to this situation to be commenting on it. Its painful
and at times I feel trapped, overwhelmed and scared. I was hurt that so many
people were making assumptions about my personality when you have never met me
before. I should not have taken it as a personal attack but rather one that is
fictional as Karen said earlier.-=-
Karen was nice to say that, but it was personal when you changed your story
and started insulting people here.
-=-We are all looking for support here and I have found it.-=-
It's a discussion list, not a support group. Information about unschooling
is the purpose of the list, not support. I know it's hard for some people to
understand that, but it's so.
http://sandradodd.com/lists/info
http://sandradodd.com/lists/description
(those are also in downloadable files at the yahoogroups site)
-=-Would it be possible to maybe take me out of the topic if you all want to
continue talking about it? -=-
You could just not open mail that's about this or you could leave the list,
but people can discuss it here if they want to. If you want to leave the
discussion, send an e-mail here:
[email protected]
That's at the bottom of every e-mail from the group.
Sandra
<< I have been told that so many times and tried it and it never worked. >>
All we know is what you wrote.
You chose what to write, you chose to post, and MANY people took the time to
read it.
-=-I agree with Sandra and Penne I defenatly see your point now. Not to say
that I am withdrawing what I said earlier though, I just could have been a bit
nicer about it. -=-
Please, just let it go if you're so frustrated and unhappy about it all.
We're not helping you any, and you're not helping the list with this.
-=To bad I cant just call you all up and explain it better.-=-
We don't need to understand it better. We offered help and now it's yours to
take or to leave.
-=Domestic situations are always hard to deal with and maybe it is something
that should be left alone in the future-=-
You want the list to have a policy of not commenting on families dynamics?
That's what most of the discussions are about.
-=-I am far to close to this situation to be commenting on it. Its painful
and at times I feel trapped, overwhelmed and scared. I was hurt that so many
people were making assumptions about my personality when you have never met me
before. I should not have taken it as a personal attack but rather one that is
fictional as Karen said earlier.-=-
Karen was nice to say that, but it was personal when you changed your story
and started insulting people here.
-=-We are all looking for support here and I have found it.-=-
It's a discussion list, not a support group. Information about unschooling
is the purpose of the list, not support. I know it's hard for some people to
understand that, but it's so.
http://sandradodd.com/lists/info
http://sandradodd.com/lists/description
(those are also in downloadable files at the yahoogroups site)
-=-Would it be possible to maybe take me out of the topic if you all want to
continue talking about it? -=-
You could just not open mail that's about this or you could leave the list,
but people can discuss it here if they want to. If you want to leave the
discussion, send an e-mail here:
[email protected]
That's at the bottom of every e-mail from the group.
Sandra
jenneferh2000
--- In [email protected], steffieb28
<steffieb28@y...> wrote:
information you have shared with the list. The more exact
information you can provide, the more specific advice you will
probably receive.
than others, and some types of counseling works better for others.
If couple counseling does not work for your marriage, perhaps you can
seek individual counseling for yourself. The result will have a
ripple effect. However, you state that you 'don't want to go to
counseling'. I sense a lot of stubborness, anger, hostility and a
back and forth attitude coming through via your e-mails. You attack
the list, then apologize for your attacks. This pattern is probably
present in your family dynamics. I do the same thing in times of
stress. This is something I am working on and getting better at.
When my partner points this out to me, I get MAD. But, he's right.
Have you ever considered going to a female, Jungian counselor? You
might consider giving it another try- it was a world of help for me
on so many levels. There is probably a good reason why your last
counseling experience did not work. Maybe you didn't give it enough
time. Maybe your counselor was not right for you. Maybe you were
having a hard time processing some of the truths that were surfacing.
-Jennefer
<steffieb28@y...> wrote:
>You make assumptions that i havent tried every avenue.We have had to make a lot of assumptions based upon limited
information you have shared with the list. The more exact
information you can provide, the more specific advice you will
probably receive.
>Counsling is only good when both people are willing to accept andThere are all types of counseling, and some counselors are better
>take responsiblility for their actions. Its crazy to bother trying
>when one of the parteners is placing blame souly on the other. Not
>to mention I dont want to go to counsling. I've been, and it didnt
>work. I come away feeling guilty for wanting peace in my life, as if
>that is something I dont have the right to have.
than others, and some types of counseling works better for others.
If couple counseling does not work for your marriage, perhaps you can
seek individual counseling for yourself. The result will have a
ripple effect. However, you state that you 'don't want to go to
counseling'. I sense a lot of stubborness, anger, hostility and a
back and forth attitude coming through via your e-mails. You attack
the list, then apologize for your attacks. This pattern is probably
present in your family dynamics. I do the same thing in times of
stress. This is something I am working on and getting better at.
When my partner points this out to me, I get MAD. But, he's right.
Have you ever considered going to a female, Jungian counselor? You
might consider giving it another try- it was a world of help for me
on so many levels. There is probably a good reason why your last
counseling experience did not work. Maybe you didn't give it enough
time. Maybe your counselor was not right for you. Maybe you were
having a hard time processing some of the truths that were surfacing.
-Jennefer
pam sorooshian
Could you suggest a starting point for those interested in NVC? (Sorry
if I missed it.)
-pam
if I missed it.)
-pam
On Dec 31, 2004, at 11:21 PM, Penne & Buddies wrote:
> I
> see NVC as a practical and workable solution to the problem of
> communication in the home (in any scenario, but especially if
> someone's bark is basically bigger than his bite.)
>
Penne & Buddies
Hi Pam (that's my sister's name, too :o) I would be more than happy
to offer a few suggestions on getting started in NVC.
The following's from a previous post (sidenote: I'm impressed with
Sandra's -=-quotation designators-=-, but don't wanna be a copycat,
so I've been exploring the keyboard to find other cool combinations.
Nothing appears to be as simple, easy, and elegant so far :o)
=:=I devoured all of the literature on NVC* when I first discovered
a month or so ago [in an article at Mothering.com,] and got my kids
involved in making a significant change in the way we interact. Not
to say that we didn't have our share of skeptics who had seen other
methods tried and failed, but we have persevered through the
learning phase and the tension is slowly but surely dispersing as we
learn how to speak "street giraffe." Awesome to see the whole
process work its magic with a little effort...=:=
The online resources at CNVC.org are the best place to get a quick
start -- very comprehensive. After getting a basic idea about how
the process works, I would suggest reading the advanced class notes
(even as a novice) for some advice on introducing this to others
without turning them off by the mechanics of the method. That's
what I meant by "street" or idiomatic giraffe (you'll find out where
animals fit into the picture soon enough :o)
After exhausting the online resources and joining a couple of
discussion groups here on Yahoo! -- Synergy Communication and NVC-
parenting -- I ordered the "Basics of NVC" video set (suggested for
those without local support groups) and a couple of puppets (one
giraffe, one jackal) for the kids. The puppets are very well made
(and reasonably priced) and the kids enjoyed interacting with them
right out of the box. After a day or so of free play (I'm sounding
very "education" even though it was just plain ole fun,) we sat down
and watched the videos together.
There was only one semi-reluctant camper guilted into giving it a
chance in the beginning (old habits die hard) and a few moans as
Marshall Rosenberg (founder of CNVC and workshop leader) opened up
the session in song. I'm afraid it reminded them a bit too much of
dear old mom playing folk music on my guitar :oP) but Marshall soon
won the whole clan over with his candor and flair for interacting
with a group -- not to mention his puppeteering skills (a bit
cheesy, but amusingly so.)
We're ordering ears next -- visual aids 'R' us :o) In the meantime,
one of the kids crocheted me a pair of giraffe ears for my birthday
not long ago -- they're so cute and a hoot to boot! Group hug time
and warm, fuzzy feelings all around... best present I've gotten in a
long time.
There's a new edition to a book called the "Compassionate
Classroom." They tell me that it's an art-based textbook written by
a couple of NVC trainers, one of which is an advisor to the
GlobalVillageSchool.org We're not much for lesson plans and I'm not
exactly sure how this book is set up, but hopefully it was
influenced by Marshall, who worked with John Holt in the early years
and is an advocate of homeschooling. I figure it will have some
good ideas to play around with, anyway, and the NVC-parenting group
is discussing possibilities of using it for a virtual chat/workshop
in the future.
Vayan con Dios, Amigos ~
Penne Sue (my sister Pamela's middle name, too :o) & the Crew
THERE is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.
SHAKESPEARE
Quotation from the frontispiece to Science & Health with Key to the
Scriptures by Mary Baker Eddy
http://www.christianscience.org/SAH.html
*Center for Nonviolent Communication
http;//www.cnvc.org
--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
to offer a few suggestions on getting started in NVC.
The following's from a previous post (sidenote: I'm impressed with
Sandra's -=-quotation designators-=-, but don't wanna be a copycat,
so I've been exploring the keyboard to find other cool combinations.
Nothing appears to be as simple, easy, and elegant so far :o)
=:=I devoured all of the literature on NVC* when I first discovered
a month or so ago [in an article at Mothering.com,] and got my kids
involved in making a significant change in the way we interact. Not
to say that we didn't have our share of skeptics who had seen other
methods tried and failed, but we have persevered through the
learning phase and the tension is slowly but surely dispersing as we
learn how to speak "street giraffe." Awesome to see the whole
process work its magic with a little effort...=:=
The online resources at CNVC.org are the best place to get a quick
start -- very comprehensive. After getting a basic idea about how
the process works, I would suggest reading the advanced class notes
(even as a novice) for some advice on introducing this to others
without turning them off by the mechanics of the method. That's
what I meant by "street" or idiomatic giraffe (you'll find out where
animals fit into the picture soon enough :o)
After exhausting the online resources and joining a couple of
discussion groups here on Yahoo! -- Synergy Communication and NVC-
parenting -- I ordered the "Basics of NVC" video set (suggested for
those without local support groups) and a couple of puppets (one
giraffe, one jackal) for the kids. The puppets are very well made
(and reasonably priced) and the kids enjoyed interacting with them
right out of the box. After a day or so of free play (I'm sounding
very "education" even though it was just plain ole fun,) we sat down
and watched the videos together.
There was only one semi-reluctant camper guilted into giving it a
chance in the beginning (old habits die hard) and a few moans as
Marshall Rosenberg (founder of CNVC and workshop leader) opened up
the session in song. I'm afraid it reminded them a bit too much of
dear old mom playing folk music on my guitar :oP) but Marshall soon
won the whole clan over with his candor and flair for interacting
with a group -- not to mention his puppeteering skills (a bit
cheesy, but amusingly so.)
We're ordering ears next -- visual aids 'R' us :o) In the meantime,
one of the kids crocheted me a pair of giraffe ears for my birthday
not long ago -- they're so cute and a hoot to boot! Group hug time
and warm, fuzzy feelings all around... best present I've gotten in a
long time.
There's a new edition to a book called the "Compassionate
Classroom." They tell me that it's an art-based textbook written by
a couple of NVC trainers, one of which is an advisor to the
GlobalVillageSchool.org We're not much for lesson plans and I'm not
exactly sure how this book is set up, but hopefully it was
influenced by Marshall, who worked with John Holt in the early years
and is an advocate of homeschooling. I figure it will have some
good ideas to play around with, anyway, and the NVC-parenting group
is discussing possibilities of using it for a virtual chat/workshop
in the future.
Vayan con Dios, Amigos ~
Penne Sue (my sister Pamela's middle name, too :o) & the Crew
THERE is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.
SHAKESPEARE
Quotation from the frontispiece to Science & Health with Key to the
Scriptures by Mary Baker Eddy
http://www.christianscience.org/SAH.html
*Center for Nonviolent Communication
http;//www.cnvc.org
--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
> Could you suggest a starting point for those interested in NVC?(Sorry
> if I missed it.)
>
> -pam
>
> On Dec 31, 2004, at 11:21 PM, Penne & Buddies wrote:
>
> > I
> > see NVC as a practical and workable solution to the problem of
> > communication in the home (in any scenario, but especially if
> > someone's bark is basically bigger than his bite.)
> >
Penne & Buddies
A misplaced semicolon rendered the CNVC link unusable. This one
should work* HAND-pda
--- In [email protected], "Penne & Buddies"
<crrbuddy@y...> wrote:
should work* HAND-pda
--- In [email protected], "Penne & Buddies"
<crrbuddy@y...> wrote:
>happy
> Hi Pam (that's my sister's name, too :o) I would be more than
> to offer a few suggestions on getting started in NVC.
>
> *Center for Nonviolent Communication
> http://www.cnvc.org
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/3/2005 7:09:27 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
crrbuddy@... writes:
The following's from a previous post (sidenote: I'm impressed with
Sandra's -=-quotation designators-=-, but don't wanna be a copycat,
so I've been exploring the keyboard to find other cool combinations.
Nothing appears to be as simple, easy, and elegant so far :o)
--------------------
Use it! I use it because it doesn't take a shift key and it's fast.
Piano-keyboard kind of fast. Faster than three of the same characters. With HTML
in mail it's just no good anymore to use the double less/greater than for
quotes, though those are the coolest and just like French quotation marks. Oh
well. -=-this works pretty well-=-
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
crrbuddy@... writes:
The following's from a previous post (sidenote: I'm impressed with
Sandra's -=-quotation designators-=-, but don't wanna be a copycat,
so I've been exploring the keyboard to find other cool combinations.
Nothing appears to be as simple, easy, and elegant so far :o)
--------------------
Use it! I use it because it doesn't take a shift key and it's fast.
Piano-keyboard kind of fast. Faster than three of the same characters. With HTML
in mail it's just no good anymore to use the double less/greater than for
quotes, though those are the coolest and just like French quotation marks. Oh
well. -=-this works pretty well-=-
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Penne & Buddies
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
exactly, and this is the quickest, most effective combination that I
see here. Did you go searching for something new one day or happen
upon it by chance? -=-I really like the look & feel of it.-=-
Penne
>with
> In a message dated 1/3/2005 7:09:27 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
> crrbuddy@y... writes:
>
> The following's from a previous post (sidenote: I'm impressed
> Sandra's -=-quotation designators-=-, but don't wanna be acopycat,
> so I've been exploring the keyboard to find other coolcombinations.
> Nothing appears to be as simple, easy, and elegant so far :o)fast.
>
>
> --------------------
>
> Use it! I use it because it doesn't take a shift key and it's
> Piano-keyboard kind of fast. Faster than three of the samecharacters. With HTML
> in mail it's just no good anymore to use the double less/greaterthan for
> quotes, though those are the coolest and just like Frenchquotation marks. Oh
> well. -=-this works pretty well-=-Thanks for putting it into words -- "piano-keyboard" was my thought
>
> Sandra
exactly, and this is the quickest, most effective combination that I
see here. Did you go searching for something new one day or happen
upon it by chance? -=-I really like the look & feel of it.-=-
Penne
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/4/2005 11:33:24 AM Mountain Standard Time,
crrbuddy@... writes:
Did you go searching for something new one day or happen
upon it by chance?
------------------
Needed something and messed around with various things until I hit on a fast
one.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
crrbuddy@... writes:
Did you go searching for something new one day or happen
upon it by chance?
------------------
Needed something and messed around with various things until I hit on a fast
one.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/4/2005 11:33:24 AM Mountain Standard Time,
crrbuddy@... writes:
Thanks for putting it into words -- "piano-keyboard" was my thought
exactly, and this is the quickest, most effective combination that I
see here.
It's like a trill. Meant to say that. And I use my 3rd and 4th fingers,
which are a fast and good-angled combination (both piano-trill-wise and
computer-keyboard-wise).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
crrbuddy@... writes:
Thanks for putting it into words -- "piano-keyboard" was my thought
exactly, and this is the quickest, most effective combination that I
see here.
It's like a trill. Meant to say that. And I use my 3rd and 4th fingers,
which are a fast and good-angled combination (both piano-trill-wise and
computer-keyboard-wise).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]