children within us (was Re: a difficult problem)
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In a message dated 12/27/04 11:54:47 PM, sondracarr@... writes:
<< But the mothering of men to me is one of the worst problems
to hit marriage and families in history. It creates boy/ men and that's not
good for anyone. >>
Have you no yearning, ever, to be pampered? To get honest sympathy?
For generations, men have been expected to buck up and "get over it," no
matter what "it" might be.
In the 1960's, psychology was quite suspect, still.
There are to this day men who fear counselling or anything that sounds like
psychology.
That's a shame, because their upbringing contributes to some problems that
could be easily overcome if others around them would treat them like whole
people instead of like "buck up" rocks or bad guys.
To condemn a man who seems to be emotionally needy rather than considering
helping to fulfill some of his *REAL* needs (as real as anything little kids
need) seem cold.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what is meant by "an equal - a partner, a friend,
and a lover." Sometimes one person in any couple or friendship is needier
than another, and withholding compassion because he just shouldn't need it seems
cruel.
Inside every adult of any gender are the memories and fears and needs of the
child he or she was. Inside every other adult is the capacity to blow that by
or to acknowledge it.
Sandra
<< But the mothering of men to me is one of the worst problems
to hit marriage and families in history. It creates boy/ men and that's not
good for anyone. >>
Have you no yearning, ever, to be pampered? To get honest sympathy?
For generations, men have been expected to buck up and "get over it," no
matter what "it" might be.
In the 1960's, psychology was quite suspect, still.
There are to this day men who fear counselling or anything that sounds like
psychology.
That's a shame, because their upbringing contributes to some problems that
could be easily overcome if others around them would treat them like whole
people instead of like "buck up" rocks or bad guys.
To condemn a man who seems to be emotionally needy rather than considering
helping to fulfill some of his *REAL* needs (as real as anything little kids
need) seem cold.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what is meant by "an equal - a partner, a friend,
and a lover." Sometimes one person in any couple or friendship is needier
than another, and withholding compassion because he just shouldn't need it seems
cruel.
Inside every adult of any gender are the memories and fears and needs of the
child he or she was. Inside every other adult is the capacity to blow that by
or to acknowledge it.
Sandra
Sylvia Toyama
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what is meant by "an equal - a partner, a friend, and a lover." Sometimes one person in any couple or friendship is needier than another, and withholding compassion because he just shouldn't need it seems cruel.
Inside every adult of any gender are the memories and fears and needs of the child he or she was. Inside every other adult is the capacity to blow that by or to acknowledge it.
Sandra
******
Thanks for saying this, Sandra. I think, too often, people get locked into feeling like it's not okay to give support to other adults. The flip side is that too many of us don't feel okay asking for support when we need it.
I can't think of anyone I know who doesn't have some moments of need. And some need more compassion, or more care, more often than others. Usually they're genuinely more hurt, long-term, and really need that support, space and kindness to heal and become whole people.
In a marriage, in good or bad times, doing what one can to help support and maybe heal your partner's pain is always a good thing. In all we do, we're examples to our kids. Also, no matter how the adults feel about each other, your spouse (or ex-spouse) will always be the other parent to your children. Isn't it better to reach out and help your children's father? It may be just what he needs to become the father your children deserve, and it shows them how to be compassionate to others. It also can help everyone involved to see how childhood pain, or even last week's pain, affects today, and how healing it can save tomorrow.
Sylvia
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Inside every adult of any gender are the memories and fears and needs of the child he or she was. Inside every other adult is the capacity to blow that by or to acknowledge it.
Sandra
******
Thanks for saying this, Sandra. I think, too often, people get locked into feeling like it's not okay to give support to other adults. The flip side is that too many of us don't feel okay asking for support when we need it.
I can't think of anyone I know who doesn't have some moments of need. And some need more compassion, or more care, more often than others. Usually they're genuinely more hurt, long-term, and really need that support, space and kindness to heal and become whole people.
In a marriage, in good or bad times, doing what one can to help support and maybe heal your partner's pain is always a good thing. In all we do, we're examples to our kids. Also, no matter how the adults feel about each other, your spouse (or ex-spouse) will always be the other parent to your children. Isn't it better to reach out and help your children's father? It may be just what he needs to become the father your children deserve, and it shows them how to be compassionate to others. It also can help everyone involved to see how childhood pain, or even last week's pain, affects today, and how healing it can save tomorrow.
Sylvia
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In a message dated 12/28/04 4:58:42 PM, sylgt04@... writes:
<< Isn't it better to reach out and help your children's father? It may be
just what he needs to become the father your children deserve, and it shows
them how to be compassionate to others. It also can help everyone involved to
see how childhood pain, or even last week's pain, affects today, and how
healing it can save tomorrow. >>
And how it affects those who are affected.
In a negative situation, heaping on more negativity does nothing but increase
the negativity.
When one person is hurt and another is kind, there's more kindness.
Sounds weenie, but what Syl wrote above isn't. If the dad is better in ANY
degree, the kids are better off.
Sandra
<< Isn't it better to reach out and help your children's father? It may be
just what he needs to become the father your children deserve, and it shows
them how to be compassionate to others. It also can help everyone involved to
see how childhood pain, or even last week's pain, affects today, and how
healing it can save tomorrow. >>
And how it affects those who are affected.
In a negative situation, heaping on more negativity does nothing but increase
the negativity.
When one person is hurt and another is kind, there's more kindness.
Sounds weenie, but what Syl wrote above isn't. If the dad is better in ANY
degree, the kids are better off.
Sandra
steffieb28
In a normal circumstance where the two adults were mature and willing to change I would say ofcourse get him help. But unfortunatly in my situation he doesnt see where there is a problem with him. He truly thinks It is my fault he gets angry. He says if I would just change myself and do what he wanted, put the kids in school, get my nails done, go to parties and be the trophy wife, and stop spending his money, tthen he would be happy and all of this would change. The problem with all that is I did do all of that, to the point of changing my outward appearance so that I dont even look like me anymore, and he is still not happy. I dont touch his money, he has his own account and I have mine. I am lucky enough to have a job where I can work at home. He isnt rational. He has the pottential to be a wonderful man, but he would have to take responsiblity for his own actions first so he could change. So I agree with you, but in my case as long as I stay, it justifies his abuse and he will
never change until I change my pattern. I cant think of helping him right now. I end up changing myself when I do that. The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. I have to help me first, then maybe I can help him. Thats the only way. If I dont fix me then the pattern will continue.
"Irene"
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 12/28/04 4:58:42 PM, sylgt04@... writes:
<< Isn't it better to reach out and help your children's father? It may be
just what he needs to become the father your children deserve, and it shows
them how to be compassionate to others. It also can help everyone involved to
see how childhood pain, or even last week's pain, affects today, and how
healing it can save tomorrow. >>
And how it affects those who are affected.
In a negative situation, heaping on more negativity does nothing but increase
the negativity.
When one person is hurt and another is kind, there's more kindness.
Sounds weenie, but what Syl wrote above isn't. If the dad is better in ANY
degree, the kids are better off.
Sandra
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never change until I change my pattern. I cant think of helping him right now. I end up changing myself when I do that. The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. I have to help me first, then maybe I can help him. Thats the only way. If I dont fix me then the pattern will continue.
"Irene"
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 12/28/04 4:58:42 PM, sylgt04@... writes:
<< Isn't it better to reach out and help your children's father? It may be
just what he needs to become the father your children deserve, and it shows
them how to be compassionate to others. It also can help everyone involved to
see how childhood pain, or even last week's pain, affects today, and how
healing it can save tomorrow. >>
And how it affects those who are affected.
In a negative situation, heaping on more negativity does nothing but increase
the negativity.
When one person is hurt and another is kind, there's more kindness.
Sounds weenie, but what Syl wrote above isn't. If the dad is better in ANY
degree, the kids are better off.
Sandra
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
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diana jenner
Wow! I've struggled with this topic since it popped into our group...
The whole issue of dismissing a dad is a tough one for me as I raise my
kids without one. I firmly believe we get the family we're supposed to
get in order to learn what it is we need to learn. Some lessons are fun
and many others are not - but the big picture shows growth and
development as human beings thru those lessons. I'm a totally different
person as a single mom - I sure didn't like learning the necessary
lessons to BE that person, but I've accepted them and at times, find
myself grateful for those lessons, for the person they've helped me
become, the stretching of my own horizons.
I can only imagine this tortured soul of a father... what a wonderful
gift compassion is, once he is able to accept the unconditional love of
his family (which is where counseling of any kind will help him realize
he, too, is deserving), he can return it to them 100 fold.
Sandra's quote below drives home one of my favorite ideas: Practice what
you want to be good at. Kindness is a great thing, it does get easier
with practice...
:) diana
SandraDodd@... wrote:
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The whole issue of dismissing a dad is a tough one for me as I raise my
kids without one. I firmly believe we get the family we're supposed to
get in order to learn what it is we need to learn. Some lessons are fun
and many others are not - but the big picture shows growth and
development as human beings thru those lessons. I'm a totally different
person as a single mom - I sure didn't like learning the necessary
lessons to BE that person, but I've accepted them and at times, find
myself grateful for those lessons, for the person they've helped me
become, the stretching of my own horizons.
I can only imagine this tortured soul of a father... what a wonderful
gift compassion is, once he is able to accept the unconditional love of
his family (which is where counseling of any kind will help him realize
he, too, is deserving), he can return it to them 100 fold.
Sandra's quote below drives home one of my favorite ideas: Practice what
you want to be good at. Kindness is a great thing, it does get easier
with practice...
:) diana
SandraDodd@... wrote:
>In a message dated 12/28/04 4:58:42 PM, sylgt04@... writes:--
>
><< Isn't it better to reach out and help your children's father? It may be
>just what he needs to become the father your children deserve, and it shows
>them how to be compassionate to others. It also can help everyone involved to
>see how childhood pain, or even last week's pain, affects today, and how
>healing it can save tomorrow. >>
>
>And how it affects those who are affected.
>In a negative situation, heaping on more negativity does nothing but increase
>the negativity.
>
>When one person is hurt and another is kind, there's more kindness.
>
>Sounds weenie, but what Syl wrote above isn't. If the dad is better in ANY
>degree, the kids are better off.
>
>Sandra
>
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.6 - Release Date: 12-28-2004
Sylvia Toyama
He isnt rational. He has the pottential to be a wonderful man, but he would have to take responsiblity for his own actions first so he could change. So I agree with you, but in my case as long as I stay, it justifies his abuse and he will
never change until I change my pattern. I cant think of helping him right now. I end up changing myself when I do that. The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. I have to help me first, then maybe I can help him. Thats the only way. If I dont fix me then the pattern will continue.
"Irene"
******
Be sure you're prepared for what his reaction might be. Given his feelings about homeschooling (and unschooling) he's likely to allege educational neglect on your part. Also, absent physical abuse against the children, he will almost certainly be granted visitation, perhaps even joint custody. That will mean your kids spend time alone with him, subject to his emotional abuse in your absence. Even by today's standards, it's virtually impossible for one parent to be given total custody -- joint legal custody with liberal visitation for the parent without physical custody is the standard.
For what it's worth, if he's really unwilling to see his problems and part in this, it won't matter what you do -- he's not going to change his pattern. However, if there's physical abuse, I'm the first to say you need to leave -- with documented evidence of the abuse.
I agree it can be a nightmare at times. I grew up in a home where there was emotional abuse, manipulation, etc. By the standards of those days (60-70's) courts wouldn't have found it abusive -- heck, even today courts don't find spanking with a belt to be abusive in some cases, and emotional abuse is hard to quantify. My Mom stayed -- at least until her youngest child was old enough to choose custody. It was still a messy divorce (23 yrs later my parents can't be in the same room) and we all had much healing to do in adulthood, but I have to admit that her choice to stay certainly made my life easier. Had she left him and not gotten custody, living with him alone would have been awful. In his anger and spitefulness following the divorce, even visitation without her there to buffer would have been really hard.
Sylvia
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never change until I change my pattern. I cant think of helping him right now. I end up changing myself when I do that. The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. I have to help me first, then maybe I can help him. Thats the only way. If I dont fix me then the pattern will continue.
"Irene"
******
Be sure you're prepared for what his reaction might be. Given his feelings about homeschooling (and unschooling) he's likely to allege educational neglect on your part. Also, absent physical abuse against the children, he will almost certainly be granted visitation, perhaps even joint custody. That will mean your kids spend time alone with him, subject to his emotional abuse in your absence. Even by today's standards, it's virtually impossible for one parent to be given total custody -- joint legal custody with liberal visitation for the parent without physical custody is the standard.
For what it's worth, if he's really unwilling to see his problems and part in this, it won't matter what you do -- he's not going to change his pattern. However, if there's physical abuse, I'm the first to say you need to leave -- with documented evidence of the abuse.
I agree it can be a nightmare at times. I grew up in a home where there was emotional abuse, manipulation, etc. By the standards of those days (60-70's) courts wouldn't have found it abusive -- heck, even today courts don't find spanking with a belt to be abusive in some cases, and emotional abuse is hard to quantify. My Mom stayed -- at least until her youngest child was old enough to choose custody. It was still a messy divorce (23 yrs later my parents can't be in the same room) and we all had much healing to do in adulthood, but I have to admit that her choice to stay certainly made my life easier. Had she left him and not gotten custody, living with him alone would have been awful. In his anger and spitefulness following the divorce, even visitation without her there to buffer would have been really hard.
Sylvia
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