Bad advice from the mainstream
[email protected]
The AOL welcome page today has
Put a Stop to Face-offs
Stop squabbles with Rules, Snacks or Duct Tape:
5 Tricks
There's a photo of two kids five or so giving each other obviously cutely
staged angry looks. Neither looks really threatening and neither is afraid.
Their arms are folded and they're closer to smiling than to any large, negative
emotion.
The advice given reminds me of how important parenting things are to making
unschooling viable in a family. If a child doesn't feel glad to be home,
doesn't feel safe and doesn't feel loved, learning isn't going to happen.
If you want to see it where it lives, the address is
http://parenting.aol.com/parenting/onlyonaol
or
http://parenting.aol.com/parenting/onlyonaol/0,19766,880087_879996_1,00.html
Each of the five suggestions is on another page, so that you end up (unless
you have a Mac and can stop a download with Apple/.) seeing LOTS of ads.
That's the point, probably. And you do end up getting an address for a duct tape
sales page. If I can get some photographic camouflage duct tape that might be
a good deal. Marty got a roll of it years ago and it was very cool==detailed
close-ups of pine needles and pine cones. But I digress, and I think I wish
they had too. I'll comment in another post on the suggestions themselves,
which are here:
1. Set some ground rules.
No hitting, no yelling, no tormenting, or they don't get to keep playing
together.
2. Don't respond to tattling.
Once they figure out that you aren't listening, they'll stop doing it so
much. Or when they're mid-bicker, ignore them and do something odd -- like crawl
under the dining room table with a book. That'll stop the argument in its
tracks, and they might even come join you. (Works for tantrums too!)
3. Feed them.
A handful of Goldfish goes a long way to help soften moods. One caveat: Each
kid has to get the exact same number of crackers. You don't want to feed a new
argument.
4. Divide and conquer.
Use bright-yellow-and-black caution tape ($7 from www.duct-tape.com) to
divide their play space, and tell them they can't cross to the other one's side of
the room. Make believe you're arriving at the scene of a crime and the giggles
should help them forget what they were fighting about.
5. Let them work it out.
Ask them to do something that'll make them gang up on you. Picking up toys or
some other much-hated chore should do the trick.
Or you could just stop listening in and worrying. You might be amazed to find
they work things out themselves.
======end of quote========
Sandra
Put a Stop to Face-offs
Stop squabbles with Rules, Snacks or Duct Tape:
5 Tricks
There's a photo of two kids five or so giving each other obviously cutely
staged angry looks. Neither looks really threatening and neither is afraid.
Their arms are folded and they're closer to smiling than to any large, negative
emotion.
The advice given reminds me of how important parenting things are to making
unschooling viable in a family. If a child doesn't feel glad to be home,
doesn't feel safe and doesn't feel loved, learning isn't going to happen.
If you want to see it where it lives, the address is
http://parenting.aol.com/parenting/onlyonaol
or
http://parenting.aol.com/parenting/onlyonaol/0,19766,880087_879996_1,00.html
Each of the five suggestions is on another page, so that you end up (unless
you have a Mac and can stop a download with Apple/.) seeing LOTS of ads.
That's the point, probably. And you do end up getting an address for a duct tape
sales page. If I can get some photographic camouflage duct tape that might be
a good deal. Marty got a roll of it years ago and it was very cool==detailed
close-ups of pine needles and pine cones. But I digress, and I think I wish
they had too. I'll comment in another post on the suggestions themselves,
which are here:
1. Set some ground rules.
No hitting, no yelling, no tormenting, or they don't get to keep playing
together.
2. Don't respond to tattling.
Once they figure out that you aren't listening, they'll stop doing it so
much. Or when they're mid-bicker, ignore them and do something odd -- like crawl
under the dining room table with a book. That'll stop the argument in its
tracks, and they might even come join you. (Works for tantrums too!)
3. Feed them.
A handful of Goldfish goes a long way to help soften moods. One caveat: Each
kid has to get the exact same number of crackers. You don't want to feed a new
argument.
4. Divide and conquer.
Use bright-yellow-and-black caution tape ($7 from www.duct-tape.com) to
divide their play space, and tell them they can't cross to the other one's side of
the room. Make believe you're arriving at the scene of a crime and the giggles
should help them forget what they were fighting about.
5. Let them work it out.
Ask them to do something that'll make them gang up on you. Picking up toys or
some other much-hated chore should do the trick.
Or you could just stop listening in and worrying. You might be amazed to find
they work things out themselves.
======end of quote========
Sandra
Elizabeth Hill
** 2. Don't respond to tattling.
Once they figure out that you aren't listening, they'll stop doing it so
much. Or when they're mid-bicker, ignore them and do something odd --
like crawl
under the dining room table with a book. That'll stop the argument in its
tracks, and they might even come join you. (Works for tantrums too!)**
I really have trouble with this one. Personally, I am a natural born
snitch as my response to distressing events is to talk and talk until I
feel calmer. As a kid I trusted adults more than other kids and, yes, I
did a lot of "tattling". I think my motive was to get help (most of the
time), not to get the other person in trouble.
In a non-punishing home, what would be wrong with telling a parent?
When there are no punishments, tattling can't be used for one-upmanship
or for revenge, so I don't see any harm. (Except that the child is not
hurtling towards independence, but is staying dependent a bit longer.
Big deal.)
**If they want to tell me about a problem
they're having, or report something that scared them or that they didn't
know how to
handle, that's WONDERFUL. **
Right. There are many kids who are molested and are afraid to tell.
(Multiple reasons for that.) But for a parent to create a climate of
"I-don't-want-to-hear-about-it" is a frankly terrible idea.
Betsy
Once they figure out that you aren't listening, they'll stop doing it so
much. Or when they're mid-bicker, ignore them and do something odd --
like crawl
under the dining room table with a book. That'll stop the argument in its
tracks, and they might even come join you. (Works for tantrums too!)**
I really have trouble with this one. Personally, I am a natural born
snitch as my response to distressing events is to talk and talk until I
feel calmer. As a kid I trusted adults more than other kids and, yes, I
did a lot of "tattling". I think my motive was to get help (most of the
time), not to get the other person in trouble.
In a non-punishing home, what would be wrong with telling a parent?
When there are no punishments, tattling can't be used for one-upmanship
or for revenge, so I don't see any harm. (Except that the child is not
hurtling towards independence, but is staying dependent a bit longer.
Big deal.)
**If they want to tell me about a problem
they're having, or report something that scared them or that they didn't
know how to
handle, that's WONDERFUL. **
Right. There are many kids who are molested and are afraid to tell.
(Multiple reasons for that.) But for a parent to create a climate of
"I-don't-want-to-hear-about-it" is a frankly terrible idea.
Betsy
pam sorooshian
On Dec 12, 2004, at 11:17 AM, Elizabeth Hill wrote:
I have in my life as an adult/parent.
Even now, I have gotten myself into BIG trouble with other adults
because I assume they want to know stuff - it is SO frustrating to me
to go to other parents and think I'm letting them know about a problem
between the kids so that they can HELP with it, and they don't seem to
get that. All I want to hear is something like, "Oh, thanks, yeah I'll
see what I can do to help." I'd be totally satisfied just knowing that
they heard me and that they cared and that they'd make whatever effort
they could to talk to their own kids or be more present or whatever
they think might help resolve the problem. And, you're right, Betsy,
even as a kid I had a tendency to trust adults (my parents WERE
trustworthy in this regard) and to think that it was a good idea to
bring problems out into the light and expect adults to help the kids
work them out. This is a great insight that will be VERY helpful for me
- I just realized that probably other adults are sometimes responding
as if I'm tattling - trying to get their kid into trouble. That has not
ever been my motivation - and I've never "gotten it" that people think
that. Why would I want to get their kid into trouble with them?
If my child is doing something unkind or dishonest or hostile or
whatever - something that is causing another kid problems - I want to
know about it and I would not consider it "tattling" if another kid or
parent let me know. I'd consider it good information - and that is true
EVEN if it is hard to hear about my kid not being nice or sensitive or
kind or honest or whatever. I expect my kids to mess up sometimes -
don't we all? And I want to be able to help them be better - be kinder,
more honest, etc., so I'd hope my adult friends would let me in on it
when they see a problem, not be stopped by left-over-from-childhood
resistance to being a "tattle-tale."
But that helps explain why parents do not help each other out as much
as they could - they've been taught as children that "tattling" is bad.
And they respond to information as if it is tattling - probably all
kinds of emotional responses come up due to how they were treated as
children when they tried to get adults involved in kids' problems.
-pam
> As a kid I trusted adults more than other kids and, yes, IMe TOO!!! Wow - that is really interesting - to relate THAT to problems
> did a lot of "tattling". I think my motive was to get help (most of
> the
> time), not to get the other person in trouble.
I have in my life as an adult/parent.
Even now, I have gotten myself into BIG trouble with other adults
because I assume they want to know stuff - it is SO frustrating to me
to go to other parents and think I'm letting them know about a problem
between the kids so that they can HELP with it, and they don't seem to
get that. All I want to hear is something like, "Oh, thanks, yeah I'll
see what I can do to help." I'd be totally satisfied just knowing that
they heard me and that they cared and that they'd make whatever effort
they could to talk to their own kids or be more present or whatever
they think might help resolve the problem. And, you're right, Betsy,
even as a kid I had a tendency to trust adults (my parents WERE
trustworthy in this regard) and to think that it was a good idea to
bring problems out into the light and expect adults to help the kids
work them out. This is a great insight that will be VERY helpful for me
- I just realized that probably other adults are sometimes responding
as if I'm tattling - trying to get their kid into trouble. That has not
ever been my motivation - and I've never "gotten it" that people think
that. Why would I want to get their kid into trouble with them?
If my child is doing something unkind or dishonest or hostile or
whatever - something that is causing another kid problems - I want to
know about it and I would not consider it "tattling" if another kid or
parent let me know. I'd consider it good information - and that is true
EVEN if it is hard to hear about my kid not being nice or sensitive or
kind or honest or whatever. I expect my kids to mess up sometimes -
don't we all? And I want to be able to help them be better - be kinder,
more honest, etc., so I'd hope my adult friends would let me in on it
when they see a problem, not be stopped by left-over-from-childhood
resistance to being a "tattle-tale."
But that helps explain why parents do not help each other out as much
as they could - they've been taught as children that "tattling" is bad.
And they respond to information as if it is tattling - probably all
kinds of emotional responses come up due to how they were treated as
children when they tried to get adults involved in kids' problems.
-pam
pam sorooshian
On Dec 12, 2004, at 11:17 AM, Elizabeth Hill wrote:
and help out with kids' social problems and the reason they give is
that the kids need to learn to be independent and they accuse the
parent who DOES want to help out of being controlling. That word,
"controlling," seems to be the current way to accuse somebody of being
a bad parent.
They don't seem to see that there are alternatives that are in between
not doing anything (ignore the kids and they'll stop bothering us?)
versus taking control and telling the kids what to do (keeping the kids
dependent - parents being controlling). The idea that information could
be used to simply have some ongoing discussion and analysis of how
they're handling things, or for the parent to simply be more alert and
aware and help the kids see things from another perspective, for
example - seems to not be in the mix.
And, gosh, that seems like such an obvious direct result to be expected
from people who have been either ignored or ridiculed or punished or
otherwise badly treated as a child when trying to bring problems to an
adult's attention for help.
-pam
> (Except that the child is notOh and I wanted to add that parents often don't want to get involved
> hurtling towards independence, but is staying dependent a bit longer.
> Big deal.)
and help out with kids' social problems and the reason they give is
that the kids need to learn to be independent and they accuse the
parent who DOES want to help out of being controlling. That word,
"controlling," seems to be the current way to accuse somebody of being
a bad parent.
They don't seem to see that there are alternatives that are in between
not doing anything (ignore the kids and they'll stop bothering us?)
versus taking control and telling the kids what to do (keeping the kids
dependent - parents being controlling). The idea that information could
be used to simply have some ongoing discussion and analysis of how
they're handling things, or for the parent to simply be more alert and
aware and help the kids see things from another perspective, for
example - seems to not be in the mix.
And, gosh, that seems like such an obvious direct result to be expected
from people who have been either ignored or ridiculed or punished or
otherwise badly treated as a child when trying to bring problems to an
adult's attention for help.
-pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/12/2004 12:52:30 PM Mountain Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
other adults are sometimes responding
as if I'm tattling - trying to get their kid into trouble. That has not
ever been my motivation - and I've never "gotten it" that people think
that. Why would I want to get their kid into trouble with them?
-----------
I think it's because they're seeing it as a competition. If they can prove a
failing in your kid, it's points against your "score." I've seen it but not
too often up close and personal, except sometimes with my younger sister,
telling me one of my kids did something and then laughing an ancient laugh. And
a few times I've recognized it in echoes from childhood when I had done
something that she had gotten in trouble for before, or that we had criticized her
about, and then I had done it and she took joy.
One family used to criticize Kirby, always in comparison to their two kids.
I eventually just stopped hanging out with them at all, and Kirby did end up
(at least at the last few comparison points) happier and calmer and more
charming than their two, though they had gleefully predicted various disasters
because of my clearly bad parenting. They were the "sit down and shut up" types
and they were some of the rare (in my experience) spankers without any religion.
Maybe they had religious grandparents expecting it, though, or maybe they
were just spiteful.
-=-If my child is doing something unkind or dishonest or hostile or
whatever - something that is causing another kid problems - I want to
know about it and I would not consider it "tattling" if another kid or
parent let me know. I'd consider it good information - -=-
Me too, because my hope is that my kids will get to adulthood with as many
good clues and tools as possible. What happens among kids and with small
amounts of money and with toys and with small projects is REAL preparation for how
they can make decisions and gauge reactions when it involves things like
automobile purchases, sharing apartments, getting married, making expensive longterm
purchases, deciding on investments and business propositions. All this is
the same but smaller. Less risk. No divorces or lawsuits or credit
ruinations at this point for them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
other adults are sometimes responding
as if I'm tattling - trying to get their kid into trouble. That has not
ever been my motivation - and I've never "gotten it" that people think
that. Why would I want to get their kid into trouble with them?
-----------
I think it's because they're seeing it as a competition. If they can prove a
failing in your kid, it's points against your "score." I've seen it but not
too often up close and personal, except sometimes with my younger sister,
telling me one of my kids did something and then laughing an ancient laugh. And
a few times I've recognized it in echoes from childhood when I had done
something that she had gotten in trouble for before, or that we had criticized her
about, and then I had done it and she took joy.
One family used to criticize Kirby, always in comparison to their two kids.
I eventually just stopped hanging out with them at all, and Kirby did end up
(at least at the last few comparison points) happier and calmer and more
charming than their two, though they had gleefully predicted various disasters
because of my clearly bad parenting. They were the "sit down and shut up" types
and they were some of the rare (in my experience) spankers without any religion.
Maybe they had religious grandparents expecting it, though, or maybe they
were just spiteful.
-=-If my child is doing something unkind or dishonest or hostile or
whatever - something that is causing another kid problems - I want to
know about it and I would not consider it "tattling" if another kid or
parent let me know. I'd consider it good information - -=-
Me too, because my hope is that my kids will get to adulthood with as many
good clues and tools as possible. What happens among kids and with small
amounts of money and with toys and with small projects is REAL preparation for how
they can make decisions and gauge reactions when it involves things like
automobile purchases, sharing apartments, getting married, making expensive longterm
purchases, deciding on investments and business propositions. All this is
the same but smaller. Less risk. No divorces or lawsuits or credit
ruinations at this point for them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]