Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] spanking
Dia Garland
>Maybe you only discipline when you are angry, but you are in the minority
> why else does a parent spank unless they are angry with their child's
> behaior? If you're not angry you wouldn't need o discipline in any form.<<
there. A loving parent disciplines when the child needs correction, not
because the kid is being a brat. I can be unhappy with the behavior of my
child without being angry at the child, and when my children disobey rules,
they need correction, guidance, discipline, whatever you call it.
Do your children ever disobey your rules? Do they ever do something
dangerous? Unless you have *no* rules, they have indeed broken rules at
some point. What you did as a result of the child's actions is discipline.
Discipline is designed to teach, correct, to disciple. We want to teach our
children right from wrong. Therefore, when they exhibit wrong behavior
(taking a toy from another child, sneaking a cookie, whatever), we teach
them that that behavior is wrong. We also administer correction in some
form because our actions have consequences. Bad actions have bad
consequences, good actions have good consequences.
It is because parents have *not* taught their children these simple facts
that we see so many kids today who sincerely believe that they do not have
to suffer the consequences of their actions.
Dia
susan wilson
i don't believe any research has bore this out. i have to say imo
spanking falls more in the realm of tradition i.e. 'old habits die
hard'. so we'll do anything to justify our need to control rather
than acknowledge maybe we have been doing things wrong for a very long
time. i think this is especially true with parents not appologizing
to their children.
if a parent finds a 'justifible' need to spank their child imo they
should take a long hard look at their relationship w/ that child and
ask themselves some hard questions like 'just what am i modeling to my
child that helps foster this unwanted behavior.' but most people can
not look at themselves w/ the same critical eye they use on their
children. it's just too hard on the ego.
-susan
austin,tx
spanking falls more in the realm of tradition i.e. 'old habits die
hard'. so we'll do anything to justify our need to control rather
than acknowledge maybe we have been doing things wrong for a very long
time. i think this is especially true with parents not appologizing
to their children.
if a parent finds a 'justifible' need to spank their child imo they
should take a long hard look at their relationship w/ that child and
ask themselves some hard questions like 'just what am i modeling to my
child that helps foster this unwanted behavior.' but most people can
not look at themselves w/ the same critical eye they use on their
children. it's just too hard on the ego.
-susan
austin,tx
> . Can people be creative enough to comechildren?<<
>> up with a better kind of discipline if they really love their
>because the
> Better as in how? Usually when one wants something better it is
> old method doesn't work. Spanking does work when it is applied withlove.
> Spanking because the parent is angry and it is the last resort doesnot
> work. I have found that spanking works very well for youngchildren. You
> can take any type of correction and make it abusive if the motive iswrong.
>
> Dia
susan wilson
> imo the only thing spanking accomplishes is making children afraidof their
> parents.i agree!
> how would you like it if you got hi every time you made a mistake?i did and it sucked! i still flinch to this day and i'm 40!
> amy
-susan
austin, tx
>long
>>
>> i don't believe any research has bore this out. i have to say imo
>> spanking falls more in the realm of tradition i.e. 'old habits die
>> hard'. so we'll do anything to justify our need to control rather
>> than acknowledge maybe we have been doing things wrong for a very
>> time. i think this is especially true with parents not appologizingmy
>> to their children.
>>
>> if a parent finds a 'justifible' need to spank their child imo they
>> should take a long hard look at their relationship w/ that child and
>> ask themselves some hard questions like 'just what am i modeling to
>> child that helps foster this unwanted behavior.' but most peoplecan
>> not look at themselves w/ the same critical eye they use on theirwith
>> children. it's just too hard on the ego.
>>
>> -susan
>> austin,tx
>>
>> > . Can people be creative enough to come
>> >> up with a better kind of discipline if they really love their
>> children?<<
>> >
>> > Better as in how? Usually when one wants something better it is
>> because the
>> > old method doesn't work. Spanking does work when it is applied
>> love.does
>> > Spanking because the parent is angry and it is the last resort
>> notis
>> > work. I have found that spanking works very well for young
>> children. You
>> > can take any type of correction and make it abusive if the motive
>> wrong.watch?
>> >
>> > Dia
>>
>>
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
>> Want insight into hot IPOs, investing strategies and stocks to
>> Red Herring FREE newsletters provide strategic analysis forinvestors.
>> http://click.egroups.com/1/5176/14/_/448294/_/962229900/
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
>>
>> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
>> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>>
>> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> Free, Unlimited Calls Anywhere!
> Visit Firetalk.com - click below.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5479/14/_/448294/_/962230370/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
[email protected]
Steve and I have certainly had to take a look at this spanking issue and it
is one whether you homeschool or ps. We've come to the conclusion that we
cannot tell Zak not to hit people and then hit him. It's just not logical
and my experience of life has been that children follow what you do rather
than what you say.
It's very hard not to hit him when he's done something I don't like...
However I do stop and look at why I'm angry with the behavior... I ask myself
"how much does this really matter?" "Is this really a problem for me or
him". For example... Before I had Max one day Zak decided to make a cake on
his own... I went to the bathroom and the phone rang. I picked it up in the
bedroom and slowly wandered back into the kitchen, only to find about 10lbs
(and I'm not kidding) of flour covering everything in the kitchen. Now as
you guys know flour is like dust and was absolutely everywhere. I was
exhausted and 7 months pregnant and sick and all I could think about was that
I wanted to wring his neck and hit him so hard that he'd be knocked out
(thinking about it and doing it are two different things) However, in a
split second I stopped myself from reacting and started asking him what he
was doing. He told me it was snow and it was snowing in the kitchen. He
wanted to see what it would be like to have snow everywhere. I told him that
when he'd finished playing snow (there was no flour left) we would be
cleaning the kitchen instead of going to the park, which was where we were
suppose to go... He cried and threw a tantrum about not going to the park as
I calmly explained to him that this was a consequence of his behavior and
that we needed to clean this mess up... It was an amazing experience for me.
Now we talk about consequences all the time and the choices we make in the
things we do and he seems to understand. It doesn't mean he doesn't do
things that I don't like, however he knows that sometimes there is a
consequence to his behavior that he doesn't like and he has a choice in the
actions he takes.
Just my little input
Dawn F
is one whether you homeschool or ps. We've come to the conclusion that we
cannot tell Zak not to hit people and then hit him. It's just not logical
and my experience of life has been that children follow what you do rather
than what you say.
It's very hard not to hit him when he's done something I don't like...
However I do stop and look at why I'm angry with the behavior... I ask myself
"how much does this really matter?" "Is this really a problem for me or
him". For example... Before I had Max one day Zak decided to make a cake on
his own... I went to the bathroom and the phone rang. I picked it up in the
bedroom and slowly wandered back into the kitchen, only to find about 10lbs
(and I'm not kidding) of flour covering everything in the kitchen. Now as
you guys know flour is like dust and was absolutely everywhere. I was
exhausted and 7 months pregnant and sick and all I could think about was that
I wanted to wring his neck and hit him so hard that he'd be knocked out
(thinking about it and doing it are two different things) However, in a
split second I stopped myself from reacting and started asking him what he
was doing. He told me it was snow and it was snowing in the kitchen. He
wanted to see what it would be like to have snow everywhere. I told him that
when he'd finished playing snow (there was no flour left) we would be
cleaning the kitchen instead of going to the park, which was where we were
suppose to go... He cried and threw a tantrum about not going to the park as
I calmly explained to him that this was a consequence of his behavior and
that we needed to clean this mess up... It was an amazing experience for me.
Now we talk about consequences all the time and the choices we make in the
things we do and he seems to understand. It doesn't mean he doesn't do
things that I don't like, however he knows that sometimes there is a
consequence to his behavior that he doesn't like and he has a choice in the
actions he takes.
Just my little input
Dawn F
Debra Caruso
I was not spanked,I was beaten,there is a difference.When my mom would
occasionally spank me,I knew she loved me immensely.She showed it in
word and deed,When my father would beat me,I could see the hatred in his
eyes.That is a big difference.....Deb
susan wilson wrote:
occasionally spank me,I knew she loved me immensely.She showed it in
word and deed,When my father would beat me,I could see the hatred in his
eyes.That is a big difference.....Deb
susan wilson wrote:
>
> > imo the only thing spanking accomplishes is making children afraid
> of their
> > parents.
> i agree!
> > how would you like it if you got hi every time you made a mistake?
> > amy
>
> i did and it sucked! i still flinch to this day and i'm 40!
>
> -susan
> austin, tx
>
> >
> >>
> >> i don't believe any research has bore this out. i have to say imo
> >> spanking falls more in the realm of tradition i.e. 'old habits die
> >> hard'. so we'll do anything to justify our need to control rather
> >> than acknowledge maybe we have been doing things wrong for a very
> long
> >> time. i think this is especially true with parents not appologizing
> >> to their children.
> >>
> >> if a parent finds a 'justifible' need to spank their child imo they
> >> should take a long hard look at their relationship w/ that child and
> >> ask themselves some hard questions like 'just what am i modeling to
> my
> >> child that helps foster this unwanted behavior.' but most people
> can
> >> not look at themselves w/ the same critical eye they use on their
> >> children. it's just too hard on the ego.
> >>
> >> -susan
> >> austin,tx
> >>
> >> > . Can people be creative enough to come
> >> >> up with a better kind of discipline if they really love their
> >> children?<<
> >> >
> >> > Better as in how? Usually when one wants something better it is
> >> because the
> >> > old method doesn't work. Spanking does work when it is applied
> with
> >> love.
> >> > Spanking because the parent is angry and it is the last resort
> does
> >> not
> >> > work. I have found that spanking works very well for young
> >> children. You
> >> > can take any type of correction and make it abusive if the motive
> is
> >> wrong.
> >> >
> >> > Dia
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ------
> >> Want insight into hot IPOs, investing strategies and stocks to
> watch?
> >> Red Herring FREE newsletters provide strategic analysis for
> investors.
> >> http://click.egroups.com/1/5176/14/_/448294/_/962229900/
> >>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ------
> >>
> >> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> >> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >>
> >> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ------
> > Free, Unlimited Calls Anywhere!
> > Visit Firetalk.com - click below.
> > http://click.egroups.com/1/5479/14/_/448294/_/962230370/
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ------
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Lonely? Get Firetalk!
> Free, unlimited calls anywhere in the world.
> Free voice chat on hundreds of topics.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5477/14/_/448294/_/962232094/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
Debra Caruso
I don't think we are talking about spanking every time children make a
mistake.I for one never spanked my boys for mistakes.The occasional
spanking they got was for ,outright disobedience,and that was a rare
case.For other things,they got the time out chair,privelage taken
away....deb
Amy wrote:
mistake.I for one never spanked my boys for mistakes.The occasional
spanking they got was for ,outright disobedience,and that was a rare
case.For other things,they got the time out chair,privelage taken
away....deb
Amy wrote:
>
> imo the only thing spanking accomplishes is making children afraid of their
> parents. how would you like it if you got hi every time you made a mistake?
> amy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: susan wilson <fxfireob@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 3:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] spanking
>
> >
> > i don't believe any research has bore this out. i have to say imo
> > spanking falls more in the realm of tradition i.e. 'old habits die
> > hard'. so we'll do anything to justify our need to control rather
> > than acknowledge maybe we have been doing things wrong for a very long
> > time. i think this is especially true with parents not appologizing
> > to their children.
> >
> > if a parent finds a 'justifible' need to spank their child imo they
> > should take a long hard look at their relationship w/ that child and
> > ask themselves some hard questions like 'just what am i modeling to my
> > child that helps foster this unwanted behavior.' but most people can
> > not look at themselves w/ the same critical eye they use on their
> > children. it's just too hard on the ego.
> >
> > -susan
> > austin,tx
> >
> > > . Can people be creative enough to come
> > >> up with a better kind of discipline if they really love their
> > children?<<
> > >
> > > Better as in how? Usually when one wants something better it is
> > because the
> > > old method doesn't work. Spanking does work when it is applied with
> > love.
> > > Spanking because the parent is angry and it is the last resort does
> > not
> > > work. I have found that spanking works very well for young
> > children. You
> > > can take any type of correction and make it abusive if the motive is
> > wrong.
> > >
> > > Dia
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Want insight into hot IPOs, investing strategies and stocks to watch?
> > Red Herring FREE newsletters provide strategic analysis for investors.
> > http://click.egroups.com/1/5176/14/_/448294/_/962229900/
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Free, Unlimited Calls Anywhere!
> Visit Firetalk.com - click below.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5479/14/_/448294/_/962230370/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
Debra Caruso
I would like to add,I don't know how old everyones kids on this list
are.Mine are much older than most of yours.I think.
My youngest is almost 13.3 are grown.They have turned out beautifully
with a combination of discipline and lots of love.....Deb
Debra Caruso wrote:
are.Mine are much older than most of yours.I think.
My youngest is almost 13.3 are grown.They have turned out beautifully
with a combination of discipline and lots of love.....Deb
Debra Caruso wrote:
>
> I don't think we are talking about spanking every time children make a
> mistake.I for one never spanked my boys for mistakes.The occasional
> spanking they got was for ,outright disobedience,and that was a rare
> case.For other things,they got the time out chair,privelage taken
> away....deb
>
> Amy wrote:
> >
> > imo the only thing spanking accomplishes is making children afraid of their
> > parents. how would you like it if you got hi every time you made a mistake?
> > amy
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: susan wilson <fxfireob@...>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 3:08 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] spanking
> >
> > >
> > > i don't believe any research has bore this out. i have to say imo
> > > spanking falls more in the realm of tradition i.e. 'old habits die
> > > hard'. so we'll do anything to justify our need to control rather
> > > than acknowledge maybe we have been doing things wrong for a very long
> > > time. i think this is especially true with parents not appologizing
> > > to their children.
> > >
> > > if a parent finds a 'justifible' need to spank their child imo they
> > > should take a long hard look at their relationship w/ that child and
> > > ask themselves some hard questions like 'just what am i modeling to my
> > > child that helps foster this unwanted behavior.' but most people can
> > > not look at themselves w/ the same critical eye they use on their
> > > children. it's just too hard on the ego.
> > >
> > > -susan
> > > austin,tx
> > >
> > > > . Can people be creative enough to come
> > > >> up with a better kind of discipline if they really love their
> > > children?<<
> > > >
> > > > Better as in how? Usually when one wants something better it is
> > > because the
> > > > old method doesn't work. Spanking does work when it is applied with
> > > love.
> > > > Spanking because the parent is angry and it is the last resort does
> > > not
> > > > work. I have found that spanking works very well for young
> > > children. You
> > > > can take any type of correction and make it abusive if the motive is
> > > wrong.
> > > >
> > > > Dia
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Want insight into hot IPOs, investing strategies and stocks to watch?
> > > Red Herring FREE newsletters provide strategic analysis for investors.
> > > http://click.egroups.com/1/5176/14/_/448294/_/962229900/
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> > >
> > > To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Free, Unlimited Calls Anywhere!
> > Visit Firetalk.com - click below.
> > http://click.egroups.com/1/5479/14/_/448294/_/962230370/
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Free, Unlimited Calls Anywhere!
> Visit Firetalk.com - click below.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5479/14/_/448294/_/962232969/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
susan wilson
> Discipline is designed to teach, correct, to disciple.(to diciple which means to teach) i don't think jesus hit his disciples
> We want to teach our children right from wrong.and isn't hitting those smaller and weaker wrong.
> Therefore, when they exhibit wrong behaviorteach
> (taking a toy from another child, sneaking a cookie, whatever), we
> them that that behavior is wrong. We also administer correction insome
> form because our actions have consequences. Bad actions have badmaybe that is the way you see it but i would much rather show/teach
> consequences, good actions have good consequences.
compassion and not perpetuate the fallacy that life is black and
white. also i would rather show/teach understanding then 'correction'
because what is most important is that children feel safe
(understanding) and loved (compassion) so they can trust their parents
and their parents natural position of protector giving parents natural
authority not a false fear based authority.
>facts
> It is because parents have *not* taught their children these simple
these are not facts. this is a world view which is subjective and
personal no matter how many people may share it.
> that we see so many kids today who sincerely believe that they donot have
> to suffer the consequences of their actions.i think the problem is because children have not experienced
>
> Dia
compassion so they can give what was never given to them.
-susan
austin,tx
Amy
Spanking does work when it is applied with love.
behaior? If you're not angry you wouldn't need o discipline in any form.
Amy
> Spanking because the parent is angry and it is the last resort does notwhy else does a parent spank unless they are angry with their child's
behaior? If you're not angry you wouldn't need o discipline in any form.
Amy
----- Original Message -----
From: Dia Garland <moocow@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 12:46 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] spanking
>
> . Can people be creative enough to come
> > up with a better kind of discipline if they really love their
children?<<
>
> Better as in how? Usually when one wants something better it is because
the
> old method doesn't work. > work. I have found that spanking works very
well for young children. You
> can take any type of correction and make it abusive if the motive is
wrong.
>
> Dia
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Free Conference Calling with Firetalk!
> Host your next egroup meeting live on Firetalk.
> Click here!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5478/14/_/448294/_/962221512/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
>
>
Billy or Nancy
Okay, I told myself I was going to stay out of this one, but . . .
I have to agree with someone else who made a comment about some of the
attitudes seeming inappropriate for an "unschooling" list. I thought
unschoolers disliked the artificial environment of schoolish learning where
it is important to learn a bunch of facts because they will be on a test and
if you don't learn them you will have the very artificial consequence of
performing poorly on the test.
Does anyone else see the similarity between saying that bad actions have bad
consequences and I will teach you that by imposing the artificial
consequence of spanking you when you do what I consider to be a bad action?
That attitude in school teaches many unintended lessons. Learning isn't
important, getting a good grade on the test is. Knowing about a subject
isn't as important as knowing what your teacher thinks is important. Since
it is important to get good grades, cheating may become an acceptable
option. Cheating is only possible for getting grades, not for learning.
Notice that if learning is important, there is also no reason to cheat.
Spanking also teaches many unintended lessons. The biggest person gets to
make the rules. It is okay to hurt someone if you don't like what they are
doing. Might makes right. Don't get caught. Lying may become an acceptable
option if you are trying to avoid physical punishment.
There are lots of studies to show that positive reinforcement is much more
effective than negative reinforcement. Spanking is never necessary to teach
or correct. There are lots of options and the best one is to avoid the
problem to begin with. The best dog trainers will tell you that instead of
swatting a dog on the nose with a newspaper because he had an accident in
the house, you should take him outside after every meal and at regular
intervals between meals so he doesn't have the chance of having an accident
in the house.
Frankly, I have always been horrified by the thought of a parent who can
"calmly, and lovingly" spank their child. I have more sympathy with a parent
who momentarily "loses" it but can later apologize and admit that they acted
in anger.
Okay, where did I put my flame-proof suit. There it is. Give me a second to
get it zipped. I'm now ready to push the send button and stand back from the
flames.
Billy
I have to agree with someone else who made a comment about some of the
attitudes seeming inappropriate for an "unschooling" list. I thought
unschoolers disliked the artificial environment of schoolish learning where
it is important to learn a bunch of facts because they will be on a test and
if you don't learn them you will have the very artificial consequence of
performing poorly on the test.
Does anyone else see the similarity between saying that bad actions have bad
consequences and I will teach you that by imposing the artificial
consequence of spanking you when you do what I consider to be a bad action?
That attitude in school teaches many unintended lessons. Learning isn't
important, getting a good grade on the test is. Knowing about a subject
isn't as important as knowing what your teacher thinks is important. Since
it is important to get good grades, cheating may become an acceptable
option. Cheating is only possible for getting grades, not for learning.
Notice that if learning is important, there is also no reason to cheat.
Spanking also teaches many unintended lessons. The biggest person gets to
make the rules. It is okay to hurt someone if you don't like what they are
doing. Might makes right. Don't get caught. Lying may become an acceptable
option if you are trying to avoid physical punishment.
There are lots of studies to show that positive reinforcement is much more
effective than negative reinforcement. Spanking is never necessary to teach
or correct. There are lots of options and the best one is to avoid the
problem to begin with. The best dog trainers will tell you that instead of
swatting a dog on the nose with a newspaper because he had an accident in
the house, you should take him outside after every meal and at regular
intervals between meals so he doesn't have the chance of having an accident
in the house.
Frankly, I have always been horrified by the thought of a parent who can
"calmly, and lovingly" spank their child. I have more sympathy with a parent
who momentarily "loses" it but can later apologize and admit that they acted
in anger.
Okay, where did I put my flame-proof suit. There it is. Give me a second to
get it zipped. I'm now ready to push the send button and stand back from the
flames.
Billy
>
> Discipline is designed to teach, correct, to disciple. We
> want to teach our
> children right from wrong. Therefore, when they exhibit
> wrong behavior
> (taking a toy from another child, sneaking a cookie,
> whatever), we teach
> them that that behavior is wrong. We also administer
> correction in some
> form because our actions have consequences. Bad actions have bad
> consequences, good actions have good consequences.
> It is because parents have *not* taught their children these
> simple facts
> that we see so many kids today who sincerely believe that
> they do not have
> to suffer the consequences of their actions.
Amy
imo the only thing spanking accomplishes is making children afraid of their
parents. how would you like it if you got hi every time you made a mistake?
amy
parents. how would you like it if you got hi every time you made a mistake?
amy
----- Original Message -----
From: susan wilson <fxfireob@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] spanking
>
> i don't believe any research has bore this out. i have to say imo
> spanking falls more in the realm of tradition i.e. 'old habits die
> hard'. so we'll do anything to justify our need to control rather
> than acknowledge maybe we have been doing things wrong for a very long
> time. i think this is especially true with parents not appologizing
> to their children.
>
> if a parent finds a 'justifible' need to spank their child imo they
> should take a long hard look at their relationship w/ that child and
> ask themselves some hard questions like 'just what am i modeling to my
> child that helps foster this unwanted behavior.' but most people can
> not look at themselves w/ the same critical eye they use on their
> children. it's just too hard on the ego.
>
> -susan
> austin,tx
>
> > . Can people be creative enough to come
> >> up with a better kind of discipline if they really love their
> children?<<
> >
> > Better as in how? Usually when one wants something better it is
> because the
> > old method doesn't work. Spanking does work when it is applied with
> love.
> > Spanking because the parent is angry and it is the last resort does
> not
> > work. I have found that spanking works very well for young
> children. You
> > can take any type of correction and make it abusive if the motive is
> wrong.
> >
> > Dia
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Want insight into hot IPOs, investing strategies and stocks to watch?
> Red Herring FREE newsletters provide strategic analysis for investors.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5176/14/_/448294/_/962229900/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
>
>
Bonnie Painter
You go Susan!
Bonnie
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Bonnie
>From: susan wilson <fxfireob@...>________________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] spanking
>Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:10:06 -0500
>
>
> > Discipline is designed to teach, correct, to disciple.
>
>(to diciple which means to teach) i don't think jesus hit his disciples
>
> > We want to teach our children right from wrong.
>
>and isn't hitting those smaller and weaker wrong.
>
> > Therefore, when they exhibit wrong behavior
> > (taking a toy from another child, sneaking a cookie, whatever), we
>teach
> > them that that behavior is wrong. We also administer correction in
>some
> > form because our actions have consequences. Bad actions have bad
> > consequences, good actions have good consequences.
>
>maybe that is the way you see it but i would much rather show/teach
>compassion and not perpetuate the fallacy that life is black and
>white. also i would rather show/teach understanding then 'correction'
>because what is most important is that children feel safe
>(understanding) and loved (compassion) so they can trust their parents
>and their parents natural position of protector giving parents natural
>authority not a false fear based authority.
> >
> > It is because parents have *not* taught their children these simple
>facts
>
>these are not facts. this is a world view which is subjective and
>personal no matter how many people may share it.
>
> > that we see so many kids today who sincerely believe that they do
>not have
> > to suffer the consequences of their actions.
> >
> > Dia
>
>i think the problem is because children have not experienced
>compassion so they can give what was never given to them.
>
>-susan
>austin,tx
>
>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Bonnie Painter
Couldn't agree with you more here Billy.
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>From: "Billy or Nancy" <FUNLists@...>________________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] spanking
>Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:16:01 -0400
>
>Okay, I told myself I was going to stay out of this one, but . . .
>
>I have to agree with someone else who made a comment about some of the
>attitudes seeming inappropriate for an "unschooling" list. I thought
>unschoolers disliked the artificial environment of schoolish learning where
>it is important to learn a bunch of facts because they will be on a test
>and
>if you don't learn them you will have the very artificial consequence of
>performing poorly on the test.
>
>Does anyone else see the similarity between saying that bad actions have
>bad
>consequences and I will teach you that by imposing the artificial
>consequence of spanking you when you do what I consider to be a bad action?
>
>That attitude in school teaches many unintended lessons. Learning isn't
>important, getting a good grade on the test is. Knowing about a subject
>isn't as important as knowing what your teacher thinks is important. Since
>it is important to get good grades, cheating may become an acceptable
>option. Cheating is only possible for getting grades, not for learning.
>Notice that if learning is important, there is also no reason to cheat.
>
>Spanking also teaches many unintended lessons. The biggest person gets to
>make the rules. It is okay to hurt someone if you don't like what they are
>doing. Might makes right. Don't get caught. Lying may become an acceptable
>option if you are trying to avoid physical punishment.
>
>There are lots of studies to show that positive reinforcement is much more
>effective than negative reinforcement. Spanking is never necessary to teach
>or correct. There are lots of options and the best one is to avoid the
>problem to begin with. The best dog trainers will tell you that instead of
>swatting a dog on the nose with a newspaper because he had an accident in
>the house, you should take him outside after every meal and at regular
>intervals between meals so he doesn't have the chance of having an accident
>in the house.
>
>Frankly, I have always been horrified by the thought of a parent who can
>"calmly, and lovingly" spank their child. I have more sympathy with a
>parent
>who momentarily "loses" it but can later apologize and admit that they
>acted
>in anger.
>
>Okay, where did I put my flame-proof suit. There it is. Give me a second to
>get it zipped. I'm now ready to push the send button and stand back from
>the
>flames.
>
>Billy
>
> >
> > Discipline is designed to teach, correct, to disciple. We
> > want to teach our
> > children right from wrong. Therefore, when they exhibit
> > wrong behavior
> > (taking a toy from another child, sneaking a cookie,
> > whatever), we teach
> > them that that behavior is wrong. We also administer
> > correction in some
> > form because our actions have consequences. Bad actions have bad
> > consequences, good actions have good consequences.
>
>
> > It is because parents have *not* taught their children these
> > simple facts
> > that we see so many kids today who sincerely believe that
> > they do not have
> > to suffer the consequences of their actions.
>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Dia Garland
I don't think any research has borne out that spanking is detrimental to
children.
If I don't control, direct, teach, and correct my children then I am not
parenting. Furthermore, because a paret spanks their children does not mean
that the parent does not apologize to their children if the parent is in the
wrong. That is a laughable assumption.
discipline is needed? Or are you saying that *only* children who are
spanked have "unwanted behavior"? Perhaps parents should never discipline
their kids? Sorry, you are way off. Go to any kid gathering and you will
see misbehavior. Kids misbehave. ALL kids.
Dia
children.
> i don't believe any research has bore this out.so we'll do anything to justify our need to control rather
> than acknowledge maybe we have been doing things wrong for a very longYes, I do need to "control" my children's behavior. That is part of my job.
> time. i think this is especially true with parents not appologizing
> to their children. <<
If I don't control, direct, teach, and correct my children then I am not
parenting. Furthermore, because a paret spanks their children does not mean
that the parent does not apologize to their children if the parent is in the
wrong. That is a laughable assumption.
> if a parent finds a 'justifible' need to spank their child imo theyWhy single out spanking on this? Why not say the same thing if *any*
> should take a long hard look at their relationship w/ that child and
> ask themselves some hard questions like 'just what am i modeling to my
> child that helps foster this unwanted behavior.<<
discipline is needed? Or are you saying that *only* children who are
spanked have "unwanted behavior"? Perhaps parents should never discipline
their kids? Sorry, you are way off. Go to any kid gathering and you will
see misbehavior. Kids misbehave. ALL kids.
Dia
Dia Garland
> Does anyone else see the similarity between saying that bad actions havebad
> consequences and I will teach you that by imposing the artificialaction?<<
> consequence of spanking you when you do what I consider to be a bad
No I don't see a similarity. Bad actions *do* have bad consequences. If I
steal a car, then the consequence is being arrested and put in jail. If I
decide to blow a wad of money instead of paying my electric bill, my
electricity would be shut off. A bad action, a bad consequence. We all
have rules to follow, in our homes, in jobs, and in our communities. The
consequences may seem "artificial" to you, but they are still there, and we
must accept them if we break the rules.
Instituional schooling is not a rule. I really don't see any similarity
here, please elaborate.
Dia
Dia Garland
>>For example... Before I had Max one day Zak decided to make a cake onthe
> his own... I went to the bathroom and the phone rang. I picked it up in
> bedroom and slowly wandered back into the kitchen, only to find about10lbs
> (and I'm not kidding) of flour covering everything in the kitchen. Now asthat
> you guys know flour is like dust and was absolutely everywhere. I was
> exhausted and 7 months pregnant and sick and all I could think about was
> I wanted to wring his neck and hit him so hard that he'd be knocked outThis is in no way disobediance! And it will get funnier the farther away
> (thinking about it and doing it are two different things) However, in a
> split second I stopped myself from reacting and started asking him what he
> was doing. He told me it was snow and it was snowing in the kitchen. <<
you get from it! He was just being a little boy playing. I certainly
wouldn't have spanked my kids for something like that, and they all did
similar things when they were younger. We spank for direct disobediance.
For instance, if Zac had been throwing the flour around and you told him to
stop, then he looked at you and threw another handful of flour on the floor,
*that* would have been direct disobediance. For me, that would have been a
spanking *and* helping mom clean up the floor. The spanking for the
disobendiance and cleaning because he was the one who made the mess.
I do understand that some people choose not to spank for whatever reasons,
we do. As our kids have grown older there are fewer spankings. There are
other things that "hurt" worse, like taking away computer privileges.
Dia
Brown
I'm 48. My kids are 19, 16, 13, 10. So I have a fair bit of experience too, Deb.
The little spanking I did with my older children did nothing but harm. My younger
ones are far better off for not being 'spanked'. I believe that spanking is abuse,
but I see no point in arguing about it as I have never seen people learn through
words. They only learn through witnessing a beautiful, functioning, non-spanking
family in action, as I did.
The feminism thread has also made me feel ill. I have been on this list since
almost its beginning, but, like Sheri, I am almost ready to leave. The benefits of
this list have ceased to outway the negatives, for me. I have learnt that it's not
good for me to be around these sort of pointless arguements which no-one ever wins
- they only poison my spirit.
Carol
Debra Caruso wrote:
The little spanking I did with my older children did nothing but harm. My younger
ones are far better off for not being 'spanked'. I believe that spanking is abuse,
but I see no point in arguing about it as I have never seen people learn through
words. They only learn through witnessing a beautiful, functioning, non-spanking
family in action, as I did.
The feminism thread has also made me feel ill. I have been on this list since
almost its beginning, but, like Sheri, I am almost ready to leave. The benefits of
this list have ceased to outway the negatives, for me. I have learnt that it's not
good for me to be around these sort of pointless arguements which no-one ever wins
- they only poison my spirit.
Carol
Debra Caruso wrote:
> I would like to add,I don't know how old everyones kids on this list
> are.Mine are much older than most of yours.I think.
> My youngest is almost 13.3 are grown.They have turned out beautifully
> with a combination of discipline and lots of love.....Deb
[email protected]
Billy,
I think you are so right. Spanking just doesn't seem compatible with
the unschooling philosophy.
who momentarily "loses" it but can later apologize and admit that they acted
in anger.<
I agree totally. I understand losing it and doing things we shouldn't;
then apologizing. I don't understand deliberately hitting our kids and
feeling righteous about it. OK, I guess I better put on my flame resistant
suit too! Thanks for the input Billy. Kimme
I think you are so right. Spanking just doesn't seem compatible with
the unschooling philosophy.
>Frankly, I have always been horrified by the thought of a parent who can"calmly, and lovingly" spank their child. I have more sympathy with a parent
who momentarily "loses" it but can later apologize and admit that they acted
in anger.<
I agree totally. I understand losing it and doing things we shouldn't;
then apologizing. I don't understand deliberately hitting our kids and
feeling righteous about it. OK, I guess I better put on my flame resistant
suit too! Thanks for the input Billy. Kimme
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/28/2000 8:53:56 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
moocow@... writes:
<< We spank for direct disobediance. >>
So if you and I were making a tuna salad together and I told you to get the
mayo and you handed me something else and I said "no I said get me the mayo
not the butter" and you still didn't do as I asked it would be ok to spank
you for disobeying me? Why is it ok to spank a child but not an adult who
doesn't do what I want them to do? I'm just interested in the response to
this and let's leave out "but your not my child and we are equals, because
that's not a real argument) If the argument is that spanking stops
disobedience then why would children have to be spanked more than once?
Just a thought
Dawn F
moocow@... writes:
<< We spank for direct disobediance. >>
So if you and I were making a tuna salad together and I told you to get the
mayo and you handed me something else and I said "no I said get me the mayo
not the butter" and you still didn't do as I asked it would be ok to spank
you for disobeying me? Why is it ok to spank a child but not an adult who
doesn't do what I want them to do? I'm just interested in the response to
this and let's leave out "but your not my child and we are equals, because
that's not a real argument) If the argument is that spanking stops
disobedience then why would children have to be spanked more than once?
Just a thought
Dawn F
Bonnie Painter
Carol,
Please don't go yet. I will no longer be responding to any of these emails
because I agree with you that they are not in the spirit of the list and
they are not helping any of us who have just started unschooling and would
love to learn from those who have done it for a while.
I'm off to the curriculum office in my township today since they have
"approved" my application to homeschool (I put this in quotes because they
have no right to approve to disapprove my intent). I know have to "prove"
to them that I am using an equivalent curriculum (also in quotes because I
know by law the burden of proof is on them). I'm hoping it will be a
pleasant experience, not traumatic.
Thanks,
Bonnie
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Please don't go yet. I will no longer be responding to any of these emails
because I agree with you that they are not in the spirit of the list and
they are not helping any of us who have just started unschooling and would
love to learn from those who have done it for a while.
I'm off to the curriculum office in my township today since they have
"approved" my application to homeschool (I put this in quotes because they
have no right to approve to disapprove my intent). I know have to "prove"
to them that I am using an equivalent curriculum (also in quotes because I
know by law the burden of proof is on them). I'm hoping it will be a
pleasant experience, not traumatic.
Thanks,
Bonnie
>From: Brown <mjcmbrwn@...>________________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] spanking
>Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:58:00 +1200
>
>I'm 48. My kids are 19, 16, 13, 10. So I have a fair bit of experience too,
>Deb.
>The little spanking I did with my older children did nothing but harm. My
>younger
>ones are far better off for not being 'spanked'. I believe that spanking is
>abuse,
>but I see no point in arguing about it as I have never seen people learn
>through
>words. They only learn through witnessing a beautiful, functioning,
>non-spanking
>family in action, as I did.
>
>The feminism thread has also made me feel ill. I have been on this list
>since
>almost its beginning, but, like Sheri, I am almost ready to leave. The
>benefits of
>this list have ceased to outway the negatives, for me. I have learnt that
>it's not
>good for me to be around these sort of pointless arguements which no-one
>ever wins
>- they only poison my spirit.
>
>Carol
>
>Debra Caruso wrote:
>
> > I would like to add,I don't know how old everyones kids on this list
> > are.Mine are much older than most of yours.I think.
> > My youngest is almost 13.3 are grown.They have turned out beautifully
> > with a combination of discipline and lots of love.....Deb
>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Benedict/Kosmacher
Thank you for sharing this great story! What a picture I have of your
snowbound kitchen -- and indeed Zak discovered that he was snowbound for a
bit! A beautiful example of a creative transforming response. Thank you!
Amy
snowbound kitchen -- and indeed Zak discovered that he was snowbound for a
bit! A beautiful example of a creative transforming response. Thank you!
Amy
>It's very hard not to hit him when he's done something I don't like...
>However I do stop and look at why I'm angry with the behavior... I ask myself
>"how much does this really matter?" "Is this really a problem for me or
>him". For example... Before I had Max one day Zak decided to make a cake on
>his own... I went to the bathroom and the phone rang. I picked it up in the
>bedroom and slowly wandered back into the kitchen, only to find about 10lbs
>(and I'm not kidding) of flour covering everything in the kitchen. Now as
>you guys know flour is like dust and was absolutely everywhere. I was
>exhausted and 7 months pregnant and sick and all I could think about was that
>I wanted to wring his neck and hit him so hard that he'd be knocked out
>(thinking about it and doing it are two different things) However, in a
>split second I stopped myself from reacting and started asking him what he
>was doing. He told me it was snow and it was snowing in the kitchen. He
>wanted to see what it would be like to have snow everywhere. I told him that
>when he'd finished playing snow (there was no flour left) we would be
>cleaning the kitchen instead of going to the park, which was where we were
>suppose to go... He cried and threw a tantrum about not going to the park as
>I calmly explained to him that this was a consequence of his behavior and
>that we needed to clean this mess up... It was an amazing experience for me.
>Now we talk about consequences all the time and the choices we make in the
>things we do and he seems to understand. It doesn't mean he doesn't do
>things that I don't like, however he knows that sometimes there is a
>consequence to his behavior that he doesn't like and he has a choice in the
>actions he takes.
>
>Just my little input
>Dawn F
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to table saws.
>http://click.egroups.com/1/4634/14/_/448294/_/962239805/
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
>Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
susan wilson
hi dia,
all i know is that if and when i 'spank' my son i have always seen
it(w/out fail) as a failure on my part. i understand the tempation to
take 'the short cut' of spanking to bring about correct behavior but
it is my opinion and experience that spanking most certainly does not
have the child's best interest at heart and certainly does not aid in
developing the skill of self-discipline in a child. rather it is,
imo, used only as tool for the parents to 'get' their way in a timely
fashion. so if you choose to spank that is your right and you will
never find me rallying for more laws which interfere w/ the rights of
parents. but for me the price of spanking it just to high and i will
hope that this will be true for more and more parents as time goes by.
as you can see from the quotes below there is much research that says
at the very least there are risks in the use of punishment to control
children. what i have consciously choosen to use is a balance between
trust, understanding, and the authority which naturally grows out of
this type of relationship. so please do not tell me that the fact
that i respect my son (as well as myself) enough to resist controlling
him via punishment and instead treat him w/ love, and compassionate
understanding that my family is contributing to the degradation of
american society. yes our society has some major problems and one of
them is that people point their fingers at everyone but themselves.
the truth is there is enough blame for everyone. why don't you take
your piece, be it big or small, and improve life in american - i know
my back yard is messy enough w/ out me having to go pick on you. if
we fix ourselves and not be so worried about others, things may just
begin to get better.
here are some quotes concerning punishment:
'punishing does teach long lasting lessons... regardless of what we
are trying to get across by spanking, paddling, or slapping them, the
message that actually comes through are these: "violence is an
acceptible way of expressing anger" and "if you are powerful enough
you can get away with hurting someone." for decades, researchers have
consistently found that children subjected to physical punishment tend
to be more agressive than their peers, and will likely grow up to use
violence on their own children. these effects are not confined to
victums of what is legally classified as abuse: even "acceptable"
levels of physical punishment may perpetuate aggression and
unhappiness" -alfie kohn: punished by rewards (p.167)
(footnote 22 from p167: 'research documenting the detrimental effects
of physical punishment has been published since at least the 1940's.
one interesting study found a clearcut relationship between the
severity of the punishment received by eight-year-olds and how
aggressive their peers judge them to be. more than 2 decades later,
the researchers tracked down some of these same subjects and found
that the aggressive children had grown into agressive adults, many of
whom were now using physical punishment on their own children... even
more recent research has found that toddlers who are hit by their
mothers are in fact less likely than their peers to do what they are
told... and that three-to-five-year-olds who are spanked by their
parents are more likely than other children to be aggressive while
playing at day care centers.')
'the word "discipline" derives from the latin word disciplina, meaning
"instruction" or "method". disciplining children should therefore
teach them something. the purpose of punishing is to make someone
suffer. making children suffer punishment may teach them humiliation,
rebellion, or vengefulness, but it rarely teaches them anything about
correcting behavior.' - harville hendrix, phd & helen hunt, ma, mla
giving the love that heals (p147)
-susan
austin, tx
all i know is that if and when i 'spank' my son i have always seen
it(w/out fail) as a failure on my part. i understand the tempation to
take 'the short cut' of spanking to bring about correct behavior but
it is my opinion and experience that spanking most certainly does not
have the child's best interest at heart and certainly does not aid in
developing the skill of self-discipline in a child. rather it is,
imo, used only as tool for the parents to 'get' their way in a timely
fashion. so if you choose to spank that is your right and you will
never find me rallying for more laws which interfere w/ the rights of
parents. but for me the price of spanking it just to high and i will
hope that this will be true for more and more parents as time goes by.
as you can see from the quotes below there is much research that says
at the very least there are risks in the use of punishment to control
children. what i have consciously choosen to use is a balance between
trust, understanding, and the authority which naturally grows out of
this type of relationship. so please do not tell me that the fact
that i respect my son (as well as myself) enough to resist controlling
him via punishment and instead treat him w/ love, and compassionate
understanding that my family is contributing to the degradation of
american society. yes our society has some major problems and one of
them is that people point their fingers at everyone but themselves.
the truth is there is enough blame for everyone. why don't you take
your piece, be it big or small, and improve life in american - i know
my back yard is messy enough w/ out me having to go pick on you. if
we fix ourselves and not be so worried about others, things may just
begin to get better.
here are some quotes concerning punishment:
'punishing does teach long lasting lessons... regardless of what we
are trying to get across by spanking, paddling, or slapping them, the
message that actually comes through are these: "violence is an
acceptible way of expressing anger" and "if you are powerful enough
you can get away with hurting someone." for decades, researchers have
consistently found that children subjected to physical punishment tend
to be more agressive than their peers, and will likely grow up to use
violence on their own children. these effects are not confined to
victums of what is legally classified as abuse: even "acceptable"
levels of physical punishment may perpetuate aggression and
unhappiness" -alfie kohn: punished by rewards (p.167)
(footnote 22 from p167: 'research documenting the detrimental effects
of physical punishment has been published since at least the 1940's.
one interesting study found a clearcut relationship between the
severity of the punishment received by eight-year-olds and how
aggressive their peers judge them to be. more than 2 decades later,
the researchers tracked down some of these same subjects and found
that the aggressive children had grown into agressive adults, many of
whom were now using physical punishment on their own children... even
more recent research has found that toddlers who are hit by their
mothers are in fact less likely than their peers to do what they are
told... and that three-to-five-year-olds who are spanked by their
parents are more likely than other children to be aggressive while
playing at day care centers.')
'the word "discipline" derives from the latin word disciplina, meaning
"instruction" or "method". disciplining children should therefore
teach them something. the purpose of punishing is to make someone
suffer. making children suffer punishment may teach them humiliation,
rebellion, or vengefulness, but it rarely teaches them anything about
correcting behavior.' - harville hendrix, phd & helen hunt, ma, mla
giving the love that heals (p147)
-susan
austin, tx
> I don't think any research has borne out that spanking isdetrimental to
> children.long
>
>> i don't believe any research has bore this out.
> > so we'll do anything to justify our need to control rather
>> than acknowledge maybe we have been doing things wrong for a very
>> time. i think this is especially true with parents not appologizingmy job.
>> to their children. <<
>
> Yes, I do need to "control" my children's behavior. That is part of
> If I don't control, direct, teach, and correct my children then I amnot
> parenting. Furthermore, because a paret spanks their children doesnot mean
> that the parent does not apologize to their children if the parentis in the
> wrong. That is a laughable assumption.my
>
>> if a parent finds a 'justifible' need to spank their child imo they
>> should take a long hard look at their relationship w/ that child and
>> ask themselves some hard questions like 'just what am i modeling to
>> child that helps foster this unwanted behavior.<<discipline
>
> Why single out spanking on this? Why not say the same thing if *any*
> discipline is needed? Or are you saying that *only* children who are
> spanked have "unwanted behavior"? Perhaps parents should never
> their kids? Sorry, you are way off. Go to any kid gathering andyou will
> see misbehavior. Kids misbehave. ALL kids.
>
> Dia
Dia Garland
I want to just start out by being very clear to everyone that I am talking
about what we do in ***my*** family here, and I am answering a direct
question, so please do not post nasty messages about being "judgmental".
Got it???
real part of the issue. It is not my job to train my peers, it is my job to
train my kids. I guess we could make an analogy to countries that use
physical punishment for criminals, it is the job of the country to "train"
in a sense the citizens. Or at least the job of the country to keep the
citizens inline with the laws. I have lived in a country that practices
physical punishment, and I have to say that there was very little crime
there. The consequences of sure and swift harsh punishment was a deterrent
to crime.
I don't spank my kids because they don't do what I want them to do, I spank
them because they willingly and knowingly break the rules. We use spanking
along with other consequences. I do not hit my children, there is a
difference. I was abused as a child, so I know full well what beating is.
Spanking is not done because I am angry, but as a consequence for actions.
Beating is done in anger for often unknown reasons.
You asked why kids have to be spanked more than once if it stops
disobedience. We can ask the same thing of any form of correction, can't
we? Why do you have to put kids in "time out", ground a teenager, take away
a privilege, or give extra work more than once if these are designed to stop
disobedience? They have to be done more than once because it is a long job
to teach our children. Some things they will do once and never again,
others they will do over and over.
When we work with our calves to teach them to lead, they do not learn about
the halter the fist time we work with them. It takes a lot of time to teach
them that when the halter is on, they go where we want them to go. We do it
by making it uncomfortable for them when they stop, and comfortable for them
when they go. I am not trying to equate children with animals here, just
the concept that it takes time to teach. Once is not enough.
I appreciate your posts Dawn!
Dia
about what we do in ***my*** family here, and I am answering a direct
question, so please do not post nasty messages about being "judgmental".
Got it???
>the
> So if you and I were making a tuna salad together and I told you to get
> mayo and you handed me something else and I said "no I said get me themayo
> not the butter" and you still didn't do as I asked it would be ok to spankFirst of all, I can't leave out "you're not my child" because that is a very
> you for disobeying me? Why is it ok to spank a child but not an adult who
> doesn't do what I want them to do? I'm just interested in the response to
> this and let's leave out "but your not my child and we are equals, because
> that's not a real argument) If the argument is that spanking stops
> disobedience then why would children have to be spanked more than once?
real part of the issue. It is not my job to train my peers, it is my job to
train my kids. I guess we could make an analogy to countries that use
physical punishment for criminals, it is the job of the country to "train"
in a sense the citizens. Or at least the job of the country to keep the
citizens inline with the laws. I have lived in a country that practices
physical punishment, and I have to say that there was very little crime
there. The consequences of sure and swift harsh punishment was a deterrent
to crime.
I don't spank my kids because they don't do what I want them to do, I spank
them because they willingly and knowingly break the rules. We use spanking
along with other consequences. I do not hit my children, there is a
difference. I was abused as a child, so I know full well what beating is.
Spanking is not done because I am angry, but as a consequence for actions.
Beating is done in anger for often unknown reasons.
You asked why kids have to be spanked more than once if it stops
disobedience. We can ask the same thing of any form of correction, can't
we? Why do you have to put kids in "time out", ground a teenager, take away
a privilege, or give extra work more than once if these are designed to stop
disobedience? They have to be done more than once because it is a long job
to teach our children. Some things they will do once and never again,
others they will do over and over.
When we work with our calves to teach them to lead, they do not learn about
the halter the fist time we work with them. It takes a lot of time to teach
them that when the halter is on, they go where we want them to go. We do it
by making it uncomfortable for them when they stop, and comfortable for them
when they go. I am not trying to equate children with animals here, just
the concept that it takes time to teach. Once is not enough.
I appreciate your posts Dawn!
Dia
Lainie Duro
I believe very strongly that you can teach your child right from wrong without
spanking, "swatting", or hitting them. It is well documented that children from
birth to age 4 or 5 learn almost exclusively through modeling. When you hit a
child, or hit another person in front of a child, you are modeling that behavior
to the child.
What I believe happens when a child is hit is the child learns to fear the
person who hit them. It might get you results, but at what cost? Hitting a child
is completely contrary to my idea of unschooling. Just as I would want my son to
learn for the joy of learning...I want him to do right for the sake of doing
right. Not because he fears the totally unnatural consequence of a spanking.
You are more than welcome to spank your child if you see fit, but I have to
disagree that "most people" spank out of love for the child. Wow. I would hate
to teach that idea of love to ANYONE...much less a small person who is just
beginning to get a handle on how the world works.
Of course, Dia, this will go around and around with no conclusion. I am
completely perplexed at how you can wave a flag of "moms who stay at home love
their children more/are better parents/are more conscientious." and also insist
that spanking is in the best interest of a child.
This is really all I'm going to say on the subject. I think what is irritating
me about this unschooling list is there are 3 or 4 people who seem to have
several thousand hours a day on their hands to post messages, and their views
run completely contrary to mine. I just don't have the time, energy, or desire
to keep up with these discussions.
livelifelove
Lainie
Dia Garland wrote:
spanking, "swatting", or hitting them. It is well documented that children from
birth to age 4 or 5 learn almost exclusively through modeling. When you hit a
child, or hit another person in front of a child, you are modeling that behavior
to the child.
What I believe happens when a child is hit is the child learns to fear the
person who hit them. It might get you results, but at what cost? Hitting a child
is completely contrary to my idea of unschooling. Just as I would want my son to
learn for the joy of learning...I want him to do right for the sake of doing
right. Not because he fears the totally unnatural consequence of a spanking.
You are more than welcome to spank your child if you see fit, but I have to
disagree that "most people" spank out of love for the child. Wow. I would hate
to teach that idea of love to ANYONE...much less a small person who is just
beginning to get a handle on how the world works.
Of course, Dia, this will go around and around with no conclusion. I am
completely perplexed at how you can wave a flag of "moms who stay at home love
their children more/are better parents/are more conscientious." and also insist
that spanking is in the best interest of a child.
This is really all I'm going to say on the subject. I think what is irritating
me about this unschooling list is there are 3 or 4 people who seem to have
several thousand hours a day on their hands to post messages, and their views
run completely contrary to mine. I just don't have the time, energy, or desire
to keep up with these discussions.
livelifelove
Lainie
Dia Garland wrote:
> >
> > why else does a parent spank unless they are angry with their child's
> > behaior? If you're not angry you wouldn't need o discipline in any form.<<
>
> Maybe you only discipline when you are angry, but you are in the minority
> there. A loving parent disciplines when the child needs correction, not
> because the kid is being a brat. I can be unhappy with the behavior of my
> child without being angry at the child, and when my children disobey rules,
> they need correction, guidance, discipline, whatever you call it.
>
> Do your children ever disobey your rules? Do they ever do something
> dangerous? Unless you have *no* rules, they have indeed broken rules at
> some point. What you did as a result of the child's actions is discipline.
>
> Discipline is designed to teach, correct, to disciple. We want to teach our
> children right from wrong. Therefore, when they exhibit wrong behavior
> (taking a toy from another child, sneaking a cookie, whatever), we teach
> them that that behavior is wrong. We also administer correction in some
> form because our actions have consequences. Bad actions have bad
> consequences, good actions have good consequences.
>
> It is because parents have *not* taught their children these simple facts
> that we see so many kids today who sincerely believe that they do not have
> to suffer the consequences of their actions.
>
> Dia
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Free, Unlimited Calls Anywhere!
> Visit Firetalk.com - click below.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5479/14/_/448294/_/962229614/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
Dia Garland
I have never stated that all parents should spank or that all kids need
spankings, I said that it is an effective and valid method of correction.
If you use other methods of correction, fine. I resent the outright slams
that are being lobbied towards those who choose to spank their kids.
Spanking is not abuse, legally or morally.
so please do not tell me that the fact
that there are rights and wrongs, good and bad, and made to accept the
consequences of their actions are contributing to the degredation of
society.
why don't you take
my kids misbehave and what I need to work on as a parent! And do you know
what I do in life? Do you know what I do or do not do to improve life in
America? No, you don't.
As for your quotes, I could come back with quotes in favor of spanking, and
you could come back with more against spanking, and so on, and what would it
do? Nothing, becuase we both believe in different things.
Dia
spankings, I said that it is an effective and valid method of correction.
If you use other methods of correction, fine. I resent the outright slams
that are being lobbied towards those who choose to spank their kids.
Spanking is not abuse, legally or morally.
so please do not tell me that the fact
> that i respect my son (as well as myself) enough to resist controllingI didn't tell you that. I said that children who have never been taught
> him via punishment and instead treat him w/ love, and compassionate
> understanding that my family is contributing to the degradation of
> american society.
that there are rights and wrongs, good and bad, and made to accept the
consequences of their actions are contributing to the degredation of
society.
why don't you take
> your piece, be it big or small, and improve life in american <<When did I claim to be perfect??? I know much better than you do how much
my kids misbehave and what I need to work on as a parent! And do you know
what I do in life? Do you know what I do or do not do to improve life in
America? No, you don't.
As for your quotes, I could come back with quotes in favor of spanking, and
you could come back with more against spanking, and so on, and what would it
do? Nothing, becuase we both believe in different things.
Dia
Dia Garland
----- Original Message -----
From: Lainie Duro <lainie@...>
>
> What I believe happens when a child is hit is the child learns to fear the
> person who hit them.<<
My kids do not fear me, nor do the children of other families I knw who
spank. I also know families who do not spank, and their kids still hit
other kids. This arguement sounds good, but it does not hold water. Kids
hit other kids regardless of whether they are spanked or not. But then,
spanking is not hitting.
> You are more than welcome to spank your child if you see fit, but I have
to
> disagree that "most people" spank out of love for the child. >
Why do you disagree? Do you know many people who spank their kids? And
have you asked them why they do it? The people I know who spank their kids
do it out of a desire to teach their kids, not out of anger.
>>. I am
> completely perplexed at how you can wave a flag of "moms who stay at home
love
> their children more/are better parents/are more conscientious." and also
insist
> that spanking is in the best interest of a child.<<
I never said that moms who stay home are better, I said that full time care
is harmful to children. You may have read more into this, but I never
claimed to be better.
David Albert
> I didn't tell you that. I said that children who have never been taughtPutting in my two cents, I quite agree, which is really, when all is said and
> that there are rights and wrongs, good and bad, and made to accept the
> consequences of their actions are contributing to the degredation of
> society.
done, why I oppose spanking. Because, unless I live in Singapore, spanking is
never the consequence of my action as an adult. Nor is the purposeful
infliction of physical pain upon my person. And certainly not by someone who I
love and trust.
So (other than my fear, which I grant doesn't happen very often, that the child
is seriously physically harmed by spanking, because I believe most parents who
use physical punishment really do love their children), my real objection is
that spanking a child does not communicate a realistic picture of consequences.
And I imagine that is a problem, for if a child learns that what goes on in
their own family does NOT teach how the world really works, they may learn to
distrust their entire family experience. I don't say they WILL, but they MAY --
and I have met too many people in my experience who actually did.
So I wish both sides in this one would chill out. Let's agree that most people
who spank love their children. Let's agree that most spanking does not leave
long-lasting physical scars. Let's agree that adults don't get spanked (except
the few who choose it for pleasure), nor are they tortured by authorities when
they commit crimes, so that if children are learning consequences, it is a very
indirect and not very "efficient" way to communicate the lesson. Let's agree
that overall, we know little about the side effects. Let's also agree that the
side effects may be changing as social attitudes toward physical punishment have
changed (so that, oddly enough, they could be different today than they used to
be.)
Let's agree that, regardless of our differences on this issue, our job is to
cherish these bits of star-stuff gathered, for they are the only real future we
will ever see.
David
--
I will touring the East Coast September 1-19, giving homeschooling talks and
workshops related to "And the Skylark Sings with Me". For dates, and locations,
check out my website at www.skylarksings.com or send an e-mail to
shantinik@...
[email protected]
i don't see it as my job to train my kids... more to teach my kids... what
they need to know to get along in life... but maybe that's what you
meant...when i think of training, i think of pavlov's dogs and conditioned
responses... that's the last thing i want my kids to learn...but i feel real
bad when i spank/hit whatever... and i always apologize when i've lashed out
physically... i try very hard to eliminate that... but i'm not perfect... i
want to be, but i'm not... being the parent of an 11 and a 14 year old, i
find myself making a whole lot of rules... even though i take the time to
explain the reasons behind them, they still don't see it and test us
constantly... i'd really rather not punish ... punishment too often causes
resent and ultimately worse behavior... but i haven't found anything else
that works as well as "if you break the rules, you lose privelages"... which
is a form of punishment that they choose when they knowingly break the
rules... i still smack them in the mouth very occasionally, which i always
regret... and it's usually because i'm upset by what or how they are talking
to me ... like i said, i'm not perfect... but i'm trying... it's the teenage
years... i remember how hard it was and i have understanding for them, and
now such incredible understanding for what my own mother went through ...
lol... poor thing...
<< First of all, I can't leave out "you're not my child" because that is a
very
real part of the issue. It is not my job to train my peers, it is my job to
train my kids. I guess we could make an analogy to countries that use
physical punishment for criminals, it is the job of the country to "train"
in a sense the citizens. Or at least the job of the country to keep the
citizens inline with the laws. I have lived in a country that practices
physical punishment, and I have to say that there was very little crime
there. The consequences of sure and swift harsh punishment was a deterrent
to crime.
I don't spank my kids because they don't do what I want them to do, I spank
them because they willingly and knowingly break the rules. We use spanking
along with other consequences. I do not hit my children, there is a
difference. I was abused as a child, so I know full well what beating is.
Spanking is not done because I am angry, but as a consequence for actions.
Beating is done in anger for often unknown reasons.
You asked why kids have to be spanked more than once if it stops
disobedience. We can ask the same thing of any form of correction, can't
we? Why do you have to put kids in "time out", ground a teenager, take away
a privilege, or give extra work more than once if these are designed to stop
disobedience? They have to be done more than once because it is a long job
to teach our children. Some things they will do once and never again,
others they will do over and over.
When we work with our calves to teach them to lead, they do not learn about
the halter the fist time we work with them. It takes a lot of time to teach
them that when the halter is on, they go where we want them to go. We do it
by making it uncomfortable for them when they stop, and comfortable for them
when they go. I am not trying to equate children with animals here, just
the concept that it takes time to teach. Once is not enough. >>
they need to know to get along in life... but maybe that's what you
meant...when i think of training, i think of pavlov's dogs and conditioned
responses... that's the last thing i want my kids to learn...but i feel real
bad when i spank/hit whatever... and i always apologize when i've lashed out
physically... i try very hard to eliminate that... but i'm not perfect... i
want to be, but i'm not... being the parent of an 11 and a 14 year old, i
find myself making a whole lot of rules... even though i take the time to
explain the reasons behind them, they still don't see it and test us
constantly... i'd really rather not punish ... punishment too often causes
resent and ultimately worse behavior... but i haven't found anything else
that works as well as "if you break the rules, you lose privelages"... which
is a form of punishment that they choose when they knowingly break the
rules... i still smack them in the mouth very occasionally, which i always
regret... and it's usually because i'm upset by what or how they are talking
to me ... like i said, i'm not perfect... but i'm trying... it's the teenage
years... i remember how hard it was and i have understanding for them, and
now such incredible understanding for what my own mother went through ...
lol... poor thing...
<< First of all, I can't leave out "you're not my child" because that is a
very
real part of the issue. It is not my job to train my peers, it is my job to
train my kids. I guess we could make an analogy to countries that use
physical punishment for criminals, it is the job of the country to "train"
in a sense the citizens. Or at least the job of the country to keep the
citizens inline with the laws. I have lived in a country that practices
physical punishment, and I have to say that there was very little crime
there. The consequences of sure and swift harsh punishment was a deterrent
to crime.
I don't spank my kids because they don't do what I want them to do, I spank
them because they willingly and knowingly break the rules. We use spanking
along with other consequences. I do not hit my children, there is a
difference. I was abused as a child, so I know full well what beating is.
Spanking is not done because I am angry, but as a consequence for actions.
Beating is done in anger for often unknown reasons.
You asked why kids have to be spanked more than once if it stops
disobedience. We can ask the same thing of any form of correction, can't
we? Why do you have to put kids in "time out", ground a teenager, take away
a privilege, or give extra work more than once if these are designed to stop
disobedience? They have to be done more than once because it is a long job
to teach our children. Some things they will do once and never again,
others they will do over and over.
When we work with our calves to teach them to lead, they do not learn about
the halter the fist time we work with them. It takes a lot of time to teach
them that when the halter is on, they go where we want them to go. We do it
by making it uncomfortable for them when they stop, and comfortable for them
when they go. I am not trying to equate children with animals here, just
the concept that it takes time to teach. Once is not enough. >>
[email protected]
<< I believe very strongly that you can teach your child right from wrong
without
spanking, "swatting", or hitting them. >>
so do i... i wish i was able to say i never once swatted/spanked/hit whatever
them...
<<It is well documented that children from
birth to age 4 or 5 learn almost exclusively through modeling. When you hit a
child, or hit another person in front of a child, you are modeling that
behavior
to the child.>>
yes, absolutely and they continue to learn through modeling... of their
peers, tv, movies, news, etc... ay, therein may be an integral part of the
problem, imo... it was easy for me to not spank from birth to 5 years old...
other techniques worked very well to achieve desired behavior
<< What I believe happens when a child is hit is the child learns to fear the
person who hit them.>>
well, maybe not always... i wasn't afraid of my parents... they never hurt me
physically... but i didn't like being spanked, so i "behaved"... i don't know
if it was a good thing or not... i do know that i held back doing some
experimental things that would have not harmed anyone... i remember the thing
that most upset me as a child was that my parents wouldn't discuss anything
... if i thought their decision was unreasonable, that was tough noogies... i
was not allowed to question it... i had to just know that being forbidden to
go to my girlfriend's house was "for my own good"... that stunk... i hated
it, and i vowed never to do that with my own kids... and i don't... i always
explain... probably too much... and i try to say yes to anything that doesn't
hurt them or anyone else...
<<It might get you results, but at what cost? Hitting a child
is completely contrary to my idea of unschooling. Just as I would want my
son to
learn for the joy of learning...I want him to do right for the sake of doing
right. Not because he fears the totally unnatural consequence of a
spanking.>>
natural? gee, i don't know what's natural spankingwise... or even violence
wise ... i hate it, and disagree with it, but recognize that it has been with
us since always...
<<You are more than welcome to spank your child if you see fit, but I have to
disagree that "most people" spank out of love for the child. >>
in today's world i wholeheartedly agree with you... i think with all the
research on punishment and spanking and it's ineffectiveness that people
spank out of habit.. because they were spanked... and maybe sometimes because
the little kid inside of them that wasn't allowed to do something is
asserting power of their child now... i'm sure there's lots of other reasons
too... including because people believe it's out of love for their child... i
think it's often cultural and tied into our heritage too... a hard thing to
separate from even in the face of research...
<<Wow. I would hate
to teach that idea of love to ANYONE...much less a small person who is just
beginning to get a handle on how the world works.>>
well, that's not always the case... it sure wasn't with me anyway when i was
growing up... for the most part, the kind of spanking i got was a cruel
lesson that i learned very young... younger than my children are... that the
world is just not fair sometimes... and there are people who wield power over
you ... it left me with strong rather subcultural principles and avoidance of
situations that involve me in the violent world of power hungry forces... i
like it that way...
<< Of course, Dia, this will go around and around with no conclusion. I am
completely perplexed at how you can wave a flag of "moms who stay at home
love
their children more/are better parents/are more conscientious." and also
insist
that spanking is in the best interest of a child.>>
we are complex creatures... here to fill in each other's blanks, imo...
<< This is really all I'm going to say on the subject. I think what is
irritating
me about this unschooling list is there are 3 or 4 people who seem to have
several thousand hours a day on their hands to post messages, and their views
run completely contrary to mine. I just don't have the time, energy, or
desire
to keep up with these discussions.>>
i get jealous sometimes, but not irritated... lol... my leisure hours and
response time are pretty sporadic... and i think learning people's views that
are so contrary to mine, teaches me tolerance and understanding...
Jeanne
<A HREF="http://rainforest.care2.com/front.html/player815">Join Care2.com's
Race for the Rain Forest!</A>
without
spanking, "swatting", or hitting them. >>
so do i... i wish i was able to say i never once swatted/spanked/hit whatever
them...
<<It is well documented that children from
birth to age 4 or 5 learn almost exclusively through modeling. When you hit a
child, or hit another person in front of a child, you are modeling that
behavior
to the child.>>
yes, absolutely and they continue to learn through modeling... of their
peers, tv, movies, news, etc... ay, therein may be an integral part of the
problem, imo... it was easy for me to not spank from birth to 5 years old...
other techniques worked very well to achieve desired behavior
<< What I believe happens when a child is hit is the child learns to fear the
person who hit them.>>
well, maybe not always... i wasn't afraid of my parents... they never hurt me
physically... but i didn't like being spanked, so i "behaved"... i don't know
if it was a good thing or not... i do know that i held back doing some
experimental things that would have not harmed anyone... i remember the thing
that most upset me as a child was that my parents wouldn't discuss anything
... if i thought their decision was unreasonable, that was tough noogies... i
was not allowed to question it... i had to just know that being forbidden to
go to my girlfriend's house was "for my own good"... that stunk... i hated
it, and i vowed never to do that with my own kids... and i don't... i always
explain... probably too much... and i try to say yes to anything that doesn't
hurt them or anyone else...
<<It might get you results, but at what cost? Hitting a child
is completely contrary to my idea of unschooling. Just as I would want my
son to
learn for the joy of learning...I want him to do right for the sake of doing
right. Not because he fears the totally unnatural consequence of a
spanking.>>
natural? gee, i don't know what's natural spankingwise... or even violence
wise ... i hate it, and disagree with it, but recognize that it has been with
us since always...
<<You are more than welcome to spank your child if you see fit, but I have to
disagree that "most people" spank out of love for the child. >>
in today's world i wholeheartedly agree with you... i think with all the
research on punishment and spanking and it's ineffectiveness that people
spank out of habit.. because they were spanked... and maybe sometimes because
the little kid inside of them that wasn't allowed to do something is
asserting power of their child now... i'm sure there's lots of other reasons
too... including because people believe it's out of love for their child... i
think it's often cultural and tied into our heritage too... a hard thing to
separate from even in the face of research...
<<Wow. I would hate
to teach that idea of love to ANYONE...much less a small person who is just
beginning to get a handle on how the world works.>>
well, that's not always the case... it sure wasn't with me anyway when i was
growing up... for the most part, the kind of spanking i got was a cruel
lesson that i learned very young... younger than my children are... that the
world is just not fair sometimes... and there are people who wield power over
you ... it left me with strong rather subcultural principles and avoidance of
situations that involve me in the violent world of power hungry forces... i
like it that way...
<< Of course, Dia, this will go around and around with no conclusion. I am
completely perplexed at how you can wave a flag of "moms who stay at home
love
their children more/are better parents/are more conscientious." and also
insist
that spanking is in the best interest of a child.>>
we are complex creatures... here to fill in each other's blanks, imo...
<< This is really all I'm going to say on the subject. I think what is
irritating
me about this unschooling list is there are 3 or 4 people who seem to have
several thousand hours a day on their hands to post messages, and their views
run completely contrary to mine. I just don't have the time, energy, or
desire
to keep up with these discussions.>>
i get jealous sometimes, but not irritated... lol... my leisure hours and
response time are pretty sporadic... and i think learning people's views that
are so contrary to mine, teaches me tolerance and understanding...
Jeanne
<A HREF="http://rainforest.care2.com/front.html/player815">Join Care2.com's
Race for the Rain Forest!</A>
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/30/00 4:19:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, moocow@...
writes:
<< As for your quotes, I could come back with quotes in favor of spanking, and
you could come back with more against spanking, and so on, and what would it
do? Nothing, becuase we both believe in different things.
Dia >>
yes, and i think maybe we should take heed to David's input...
writes:
<< As for your quotes, I could come back with quotes in favor of spanking, and
you could come back with more against spanking, and so on, and what would it
do? Nothing, becuase we both believe in different things.
Dia >>
yes, and i think maybe we should take heed to David's input...