Tracey Inman

I have been following this thread pretty closely. I joined HSLDA when we
first starting hsing. I thought I had read their website fairly well and
yes, I did see several red flags. But to be completely honest I was told I
really needed to join incase.... Being a brand new homeschooler at the
time, I think now that I look back, I joined out of fear. I have read the
links that have been posted here recently. Haven't liked what I have found
I might add. Now for what may be a silly question..... Through reading the
posts on this subject, am I correct that many of you do not belong to such a
group. That a group like this isn't really needed or helpful? That my
money would be best used doing something that my girls and I would enjoy. I
guess somewhere in the back of my mind there is this small piece of fear
that says, "what if someone comes knocking...." Maybe I need to be more
confident in my understanding of the South Carolina laws. Uhmnm, just doing
some pondering, any insight would be helpful.

Thanks!
~Tracey I.

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.797 / Virus Database: 541 - Release Date: 11/15/2004

Dawn Adams

Tracey writes:
>I guess somewhere in the back of my mind there is this small piece of fear
>that says, "what if someone comes knocking...." Maybe I need to be more
>confident in my understanding of the South Carolina laws. Uhmnm, just doing
>some pondering, any insight would be helpful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If someone comes knocking you're in exactly the same position whether you bought a membership or not. If you're not following a curricullum for your children's education they will not help you. It states that on their membership forms I believe. At least I've seen it on the website.

Dawn (in NS)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

nellebelle

I've heard that HSLDA will only take a case if it furthers their own agenda. They will not defend cases involving divorce, which may be the most likely reason for someone to have the court involved in homeschooling decisions.

Mary Ellen
----- Original Message ----- If someone comes knocking you're in exactly the same position whether you bought a membership or not. If you're not following a curricullum for your children's education they will not help you. It states that on their membership forms I believe. At least I've seen it on the website.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

On Nov 20, 2004, at 10:02 AM, Dawn Adams wrote:

> If someone comes knocking you're in exactly the same position
> whether you bought a membership or not. If you're not following a
> curricullum for your children's education they will not help you. It
> states that on their membership forms I believe. At least I've seen it
> on the website.

The HSLDA application does not exactly state that you must be following
a curriculum. Here is what it states that you agree to:

• To exercise diligence in teaching our children in a responsible way.
• To use a clearly organized program of education to instruct our
children.
• To keep records of each child’s educational progress.

I have been told, directly by an HSLDA attorney, that it is easier to
defend someone using a curriculum, but that that is not a requirement
and that he has defended and is willing to defend unschoolers.

I'm not defending them. I always advise new homeschoolers in my area
that they do not need to join them, that they do not provide legal
insurance, and that they should only send them money if they want to
help promote their extremist political agenda.

But, for the sake of the credibility of "our side," I think we should
be accurate in our complaints and criticisms.

-pam

pam sorooshian

On Nov 20, 2004, at 10:05 AM, nellebelle wrote:

> I've heard that HSLDA will only take a case if it furthers their own
> agenda. They will not defend cases involving divorce, which may be
> the most likely reason for someone to have the court involved in
> homeschooling decisions.

From HSLDA directly:

" Any children enrolled in a public homeschool program, such as a
charter school or independent study program, are not eligible for
membership."

"HSLDAdoes not provide legal representation for members in matters
involving divorce, child custody, or related domestic affairs, except
in third-party custody cases."


-pam

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/20/2004 4:15:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:

• To use a clearly organized program of education to instruct our
children.<<<
Well, this statement alone could be a problem! <bwg>

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/20/2004 2:15:12 PM Mountain Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
• To exercise diligence in teaching our children in a responsible way.
• To use a clearly organized program of education to instruct our
children.
• To keep records of each child’s educational progress.
------------

I don't do any of those things.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85

> • To exercise diligence in teaching our children in a responsible
way.
> • To use a clearly organized program of education to instruct our
> children.
> • To keep records of each child's educational progress.

What about the "teach" part? And the "clearly organized program"
part? Can that apply to an unschooler?

Sheila

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/21/2004 3:13:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
sheran@... writes:

What about the "teach" part? And the "clearly organized program"
part? Can that apply to an unschooler? <<<<<<

Since the HSLDA is the one that would make the decision to take you on as a
client or not I would think that determination would be up to them. They would
be the ones to decide if you fit the criteria or not.
Pam G





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Holly Furgason

--- In [email protected], Genant2@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 11/21/2004 3:13:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> sheran@p... writes:
>
> What about the "teach" part? And the "clearly organized program"
> part? Can that apply to an unschooler? <<<<<<
>
> Since the HSLDA is the one that would make the decision to take you
on as a
> client or not I would think that determination would be up to them.
They would
> be the ones to decide if you fit the criteria or not.
> Pam G

*After* you sent in your non-refundable membership fee.

Holly
2 COOL 4 SCHOOL
Gifts for the unschoolers on your list!
http://www.cafepress.com/2cool4school

[email protected]

I had side e-mail and when I tried the respond, the address didn't work, so
I've brought it here (minus the poster's name) so she might find it, and since
others might be interested too. What I used as response is part of a larger
discussion of the definition and boundaries of unschooling.


-=-Hi Sandra - I read the mail you sent to the group. I am SOOOO interested
to hear you say "I don't do any of those things." I find it a constant mental
wrestle worrying about whether or not I am in compliance with regulations
concerning this issue (and I am quite sure I am not, at times). Might I ask why
you are happy to continue the way you are - don't you have the mental anguish
I experience over this? It may be that you are wealthy enough to be able to
engage the best legal representation if ever you were challenged (I couldn't
afford that), in which case it makes sense but, otherwise, what is your secret?
I admire your laid-back approach.-=-




I'm going to plug in something I wrote at unschooling.info/forum, and if it's
unreadable this way, the link is this:
http://unschooling.info/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7&whichpage=5, and the
post is dated 11/06/04:

No matter how much more radical people like Kelly and Ren are than I am, the
criticism is delivered to my address, as it were. <bwg> I think it's because
I've used my real name as a "screenname," and user name, and e-mail address and
never changed it. I've never been unschsandra or kookymum or pookyschooler or
anything other than SandraDodd. So those who want to personify what they fear
or are drawn to have used me as the poster screenname.

From the time Kirby was eight and I was on *Prodigy, I would say "Unschooling
can work; it works at our house." So the questions would be "HOW does it work
at your house?" "How are you getting this to work?" "Why are you not giving
up/freaking out?" And I would tell them how, and why. And I would tell them why
I was so confident, which was following in the footsteps of two other
families, and having had five solid years of La Leche League-inspired attachment
parenting. I had decided after reading an article in Mothering when Kirby was a
baby not only to continue with child-led weaning, but not to require or forbid
foods, and not to "do dessert." My husband and I had been together for seven
years before Kirby came, and we hadn't made a practice of having desserts after
meals anyway, so that was easy and made simple sense. We would try to ensure
that food was never an issue, nor a power struggle, nor infused with great
import or danger.

So by the time Kirby didn't go to kindergarten (which was a tentative thing;
we were willing to see how that went and then put him in K or 1st the next
year, maybe), I didn't "kind of think" that he could learn and do well making his
own decisions, I KNEW. I knew because he ate all kinds of foods without being
forced, he never gorged on candy, he went to sleep when he was tired, he took
care of his things without being forced to, and he shared without being made
to. Letting him make his own decisions about how to be while we were generous
and gentle with him had worked out perfectly well. And at that time I had a
three year old doing equally well.

Because of the way we lived as a family, unschooling worked.
The questions being asked were "Why does unschooling work for you?" and "How
are you doing that?" and "What did you do?" They were asking me, because I was
saying "Can TOO work" in the face of an onslaught of irrate criticism from
school-at-home folk.

Then gradually the unschooling discussion was large enough to be separate,
and there were other regular contributors. Those who communicated the most
clearly and who were the most thoughtful and analytical were also seeing that one
good power struggle could cause a parent to resent a child, and a child to wish
to spite the parent. Spite and resentment do not help make an unschooling
environment.

So when people insist that "all unschooling is" is just homeschooling without
a curriculum or without lessons, I don't disagree. They should take it out
and put it on billboards. Lobby to get it into the dictionary. Whatever. But
when families come to ask how they can make unschooling work, it does no good to
say "Just don't have a curriculum. See ya!" It takes layers of understanding,
it takes recovery from school, and a desire to have a relationship with a
child in which learning is flowing and easy. It takes working to create an
atmosphere in which children and parents wake up happy to see the day.

Abraham Maslow says (as teachers have studied for decades) that learning
cannot take place where there is hunger, fear, stress, or a lack of positive
regard. One known failure of school is their attempt to insert info into chldren
who are hungry, stressed, afraid, and labelled "bad" or "slow" or even "average."

One known failure of homeschooling is when the parents do the same kind of
damage at home. If a child is not eating when she's hungry, sleeping when she's
tired, being with her loved ones when she wants to feel connected, and
receiving positive regard, she will not "naturally" want to learn. She will naturally
want to get food, companionship, safety, love.

Some of those who have lately defined unschooling as NOT parenting-related
are also saying that no one has the right to define unschooling. Interesting
that they want to define it, then.

I don't really care as much about the definition of unschooling as I do about
helping real individual families to unschool in a way that works, that can
last, and not just be a temporary respite from school or curriculum, but that
can be sustained and enlarging in and for their whole family. IF learning stops
where "parenting" starts, how will unschooling be "learning from life"?

It's a problem. Perhaps there's a disconnect between talking about
unschooling in a clinical, detached "technical" way, and helping actual people really
get it to work as well as it can -- not settling for "good enough for the state"
or "academics covered," but moving on to self actualization right in one's
own home. Maslow's self-actualization has traditionally been thought to be for
adults, past school age. I look at the descriptions now, though, of
self-actualization, and I know teens who are there. Unschooled teens.

Everyone won't decide on a definition of unschooling. It doesn't matter if no
two families decide on a definition. But when I'm asked "How did you do
that?" I'm going to be honest. It's not about academics. It's about having changed
how I saw the world and children, and then living harmoniously with my
children in a world I *know* to be filled with all the elements they need to thrive.
I suppose someone could spend a lot of volunteer time telling people how to
unschool without changing their attitude or parenting. I haven't seen that,
though, because I don't know of any truly happy and successful unschoolers who
have clung to traditional parenting. If it can work, no one who's doing it has
come out and helped others do it that way too.

--------------------------------

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamale Teitelbaum

I was very interested to see this post (the response
to it). I feel the way I do so often when I read
responses about what unschooling is, how it works,
etc. from folks who have been doing it all along,
which is badly -read guilty- that I ever sent my kids
to school in the first place.

We've been doing whatever we're doing since the
summer. We started out 'homeschooling lite' no
curriculum, just projects and journal entries and then
I read about 'de-schooling' which made sense so I
stopped all formal education stuff.

I just wondered if there are folks out there who have
made the adjustment from taking the kids out of school
and would share experiences/advice. This is a
decompression period for me as well as I went back to
work when Aaron was three (my husband came home) and
worked long hours for the next 2.5 yrs. We did
attachment parenting, child-led weaning and have never
restricted food or been very strict about bed times,
so the 'unschooling' lifestyle doesn't seem much of a
stretch for us.

But now with them home all day and the weather getting
cold, I find myself stuck. They want to stay home all
day, not go into the yard (till the snow comes at
least) not do anything except play X Box and watch TV.
This is not MY best season, so the biggest problem
with all that is that I need to get out of the house
most days (if not every day) to avoid serious seasonal
depression. On the days I insist (and tell them flat
out that it's for me - that I just can't sit in the
house all day) there's always a struggle about getting
ready, etc. and often they complain on the subway (we
live in the NYC area and have no car), but in the end
we usually have an incident-free good time. When
there is an incident, I feel badly because, after all,
I *forced* them to come out in the first place.

I guess I'm conflicted about how hands on to be. I
read something about 'strewing' (on this list I think)
a couple of months ago, but my attempts are so obvious
to them - they just roll their eyes as if to say,
'come on, do you think we don't know what you're
trying to do?'. I want them to have freedom (and they
do) and be able to make good decisions (which we're
working on) and occasionally get out of the house (at
least until they are old enough to stay home alone so
I can engage with the outside world) Does anyone else
out there have a bunch of little homebodies? Any
creative suggestions on getting them out to do things
you know they usually love to do (not to mention
trying something new).

Sorry this post went on, but it's so amazing to have a
group of people who can relate. When I talk to (most
of) my friends about it, they're like, "well get out
of the house and away from those kids -- no wonder
you're loosing your mind!"

Thanks again,
Pamela - who is already getting cabin fever even
though it's only November!


--- SandraDodd@... wrote:

> I had side e-mail and when I tried the respond, the
> address didn't work, so
> I've brought it here (minus the poster's name) so
> she might find it, and since
> others might be interested too. What I used as
> response is part of a larger
> discussion of the definition and boundaries of
> unschooling.
>
>
> -=-Hi Sandra - I read the mail you sent to the
> group. I am SOOOO interested
> to hear you say "I don't do any of those things." I
> find it a constant mental
> wrestle worrying about whether or not I am in
> compliance with regulations
> concerning this issue (and I am quite sure I am not,
> at times). Might I ask why
> you are happy to continue the way you are - don't
> you have the mental anguish
> I experience over this? It may be that you are
> wealthy enough to be able to
> engage the best legal representation if ever you
> were challenged (I couldn't
> afford that), in which case it makes sense but,
> otherwise, what is your secret?
> I admire your laid-back approach.-=-
>
>
>
>
> I'm going to plug in something I wrote at
> unschooling.info/forum, and if it's
> unreadable this way, the link is this:
>
>
http://unschooling.info/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7&whichpage=5,
> and the
> post is dated 11/06/04:
>
> No matter how much more radical people like Kelly
> and Ren are than I am, the
> criticism is delivered to my address, as it were.
> <bwg> I think it's because
> I've used my real name as a "screenname," and user
> name, and e-mail address and
> never changed it. I've never been unschsandra or
> kookymum or pookyschooler or
> anything other than SandraDodd. So those who want to
> personify what they fear
> or are drawn to have used me as the poster
> screenname.
>
> From the time Kirby was eight and I was on *Prodigy,
> I would say "Unschooling
> can work; it works at our house." So the questions
> would be "HOW does it work
> at your house?" "How are you getting this to work?"
> "Why are you not giving
> up/freaking out?" And I would tell them how, and
> why. And I would tell them why
> I was so confident, which was following in the
> footsteps of two other
> families, and having had five solid years of La
> Leche League-inspired attachment
> parenting. I had decided after reading an article in
> Mothering when Kirby was a
> baby not only to continue with child-led weaning,
> but not to require or forbid
> foods, and not to "do dessert." My husband and I had
> been together for seven
> years before Kirby came, and we hadn't made a
> practice of having desserts after
> meals anyway, so that was easy and made simple
> sense. We would try to ensure
> that food was never an issue, nor a power struggle,
> nor infused with great
> import or danger.
>
> So by the time Kirby didn't go to kindergarten
> (which was a tentative thing;
> we were willing to see how that went and then put
> him in K or 1st the next
> year, maybe), I didn't "kind of think" that he could
> learn and do well making his
> own decisions, I KNEW. I knew because he ate all
> kinds of foods without being
> forced, he never gorged on candy, he went to sleep
> when he was tired, he took
> care of his things without being forced to, and he
> shared without being made
> to. Letting him make his own decisions about how to
> be while we were generous
> and gentle with him had worked out perfectly well.
> And at that time I had a
> three year old doing equally well.
>
> Because of the way we lived as a family, unschooling
> worked.
> The questions being asked were "Why does unschooling
> work for you?" and "How
> are you doing that?" and "What did you do?" They
> were asking me, because I was
> saying "Can TOO work" in the face of an onslaught of
> irrate criticism from
> school-at-home folk.
>
> Then gradually the unschooling discussion was large
> enough to be separate,
> and there were other regular contributors. Those who
> communicated the most
> clearly and who were the most thoughtful and
> analytical were also seeing that one
> good power struggle could cause a parent to resent a
> child, and a child to wish
> to spite the parent. Spite and resentment do not
> help make an unschooling
> environment.
>
> So when people insist that "all unschooling is" is
> just homeschooling without
> a curriculum or without lessons, I don't disagree.
> They should take it out
> and put it on billboards. Lobby to get it into the
> dictionary. Whatever. But
> when families come to ask how they can make
> unschooling work, it does no good to
> say "Just don't have a curriculum. See ya!" It takes
> layers of understanding,
> it takes recovery from school, and a desire to have
> a relationship with a
> child in which learning is flowing and easy. It
> takes working to create an
> atmosphere in which children and parents wake up
> happy to see the day.
>
> Abraham Maslow says (as teachers have studied for
> decades) that learning
> cannot take place where there is hunger, fear,
> stress, or a lack of positive
> regard. One known failure of school is their attempt
> to insert info into chldren
> who are hungry, stressed, afraid, and labelled "bad"
> or "slow" or even "average."
>
> One known failure of homeschooling is when the
> parents do the same kind of
> damage at home. If a child is not eating when she's
> hungry, sleeping when she's
> tired, being with her loved ones when she wants to
> feel connected, and
> receiving positive regard, she will not "naturally"
> want to learn. She will naturally
> want to get food, companionship, safety, love.
>
> Some of those who have lately defined unschooling as
> NOT parenting-related
> are also saying that no one has the right to define
> unschooling. Interesting
> that they want to define it, then.
>
> I don't really care as much about the definition of
> unschooling as I do about
> helping real individual families to unschool in a
> way that works, that can
> last, and not just be a temporary respite from
> school or curriculum, but that
> can be sustained and enlarging in and for their
> whole family. IF learning stops
> where "parenting" starts, how will unschooling be
> "learning from life"?
>
> It's a problem. Perhaps there's a disconnect between
> talking about
> unschooling in a clinical, detached "technical" way,
> and helping actual people really
> get it to work as well as it can -- not settling for
> "good enough for the state"
> or "academics covered," but moving on to self
> actualization right in one's
> own home. Maslow's self-actualization has
> traditionally been thought to be for
> adults, past school age. I look at the descriptions
> now, though, of
> self-actualization, and I know teens who are there.
> Unschooled teens.
>
> Everyone won't decide on a definition of
> unschooling. It doesn't matter if no
> two families decide on a definition. But when I'm
> asked "How did you do
> that?" I'm going to be honest. It's not about
> academics. It's about having changed
> how I saw the world and children, and then living
> harmoniously with my
> children in a world I *know* to be filled with all
> the elements they need to thrive.
> I suppose someone could spend a lot of volunteer
> time telling people how to
> unschool without changing their attitude or
> parenting. I haven't seen that,
> though, because I don't know of any truly happy and
> successful
=== message truncated ===




__________________________________
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Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
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[email protected]

Hi Sondra! And everyone else here. I just wanted to thank everyone for BEING
here and making Unschooling a reality. Sondra, thank you. As you already
very obviously know, it isn't about the definitions, it is about the children -
period.

Love your kids guys, and don't worry about labeling it. Just be there for
them and the rest will come for you when it is time. It really is that easy.

Thanks everyone for this group!

Heather
Wisconsin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

On Nov 22, 2004, at 5:49 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

> Abraham Maslow says (as teachers have studied for decades) that
> learning
> cannot take place where there is hunger, fear, stress, or a lack of
> positive
> regard. One known failure of school is their attempt to insert info
> into chldren
> who are hungry, stressed, afraid, and labelled "bad" or "slow" or even
> "average."

I thought maybe not everybody is really familiar with the Maslow
hierarchy of needs so I found this explanation. His point is that
everybody has needs and when those needs are met, others sort of pop up
to replace them.

Physiological - First most basic needs are for air, water, food, sleep,
sex, health, and so on. This includes the need to get rid of physical
illness or pain or discomfort.

Safety - These are psychological needs for stability and security of a
home and family and feeling safe in the world. The need for the world
to make sense, to be logical and orderly, and to have some kind of
consistency.

Love and belongingness are next on the ladder. Humans have a desire to
belong to groups: clubs, work groups, religious groups, family, gangs,
etc. We need to feel loved (non-sexual) by others, to be accepted by
others. We need to be needed.

Next self-esteem which results from competence or mastery of a task.
And also there's the attention and recognition that comes from others.
This is similar to the belongingness level, however, wanting admiration
has to do with the need for power, competence, ability.

Self-Actualization
The need for self-actualization is "the desire to become more and more
what one is, to become everything that one is capable of becoming."
They can seek knowledge, peace, esthetic experiences, self-fulfillment,
etc.


I agree with Sandra that unschooling means nothing more than not doing
school at home and not imposing the trappings of school on our
children. But unschooling successfully relies on our kids being in that
"self-actualization" stage on Maslow's hierarchy. Children who have
their other needs met will experience the need for self-actualization
and that is what unschoolers mean when they say things like, "Kids are
natural learners, just support their interests and passions." It is
obvious that you cannot punish, starve, beat, deprive, or shame a kid
into being a "natural learner." What is less obvious, but just as true,
is that an unschooling parent's primary job is to provide for their
child's lower needs to be met so that the self-actualization need
becomes primary for them and THEN to help them and support them in
satisfying their desire to become everything they are capable of
becoming.

So lots and lots of talk on the unschooling topic will necessarily
always be about how unschooling works and THAT is always going to be
about how to get all those other needs met so that the kids can
function and live in the "self-actualization" stage. Once they are
there - then unschooling just flows easily and it is obviously a
wonderful satisfying way to live.

You know, for YEARS unschoolers have tried to come up with terminology
that would indicate more what we "do" rather than what we do not do
(school). Maybe something that describes what we do as a sort of
Maslowian Self-Actualization Program would work! <G> Instead of saying,
"We're unschoolers," maybe we could say we're "Maslowians."

There are a couple of other interesting things about Maslow's ideas,
that apply to unschooling - this post is long so I'll put them in a
different one.

-pam

pam sorooshian

One of the things Maslow did was to ask people about their ideal life
or what an ideal world would be like -- and from that he could figure
out what needs they have or haven't had met.

He also thought that sometimes extreme problems in getting basic needs
met - like death of a parent or divorce or periods of hunger as a child
or abuse at the hands of a parent - these things could make someone get
stuck at that level for their whole life - never be able to really feel
that their needs in that area are satisfied and so constantly be trying
to meet those needs and therefore never be able to move to the next
level.

Also - all the lower-level needs are "deficit" needs - when you do
fulfill them you don't feel them anymore. But self-actualization needs
actually get stronger as you fill them.

Maslow looked at historical figures who seemed to be obviously in the
"self-actualization" level and looked at characteristics they had in
common. They were "reality-centered" meaning they were aware of what
was fake and what was genuine. They were 'solution-oriented" when faced
with problems they immediately looked for solutions. They thought
process as important as product, means as important as ends. They liked
significant amounts of solitude in their lives and had deeper and fewer
relationships. They tended to be somewhat conventional on the surface
and noncomformists below the surface. They had strong, but not hostile,
senses of humor - often joking at their own expense. They didn't try to
change other people, but did try to be better themselves. They had a
lot of humility and respect for others. They tended to be more creative
and inventive and original and they tended to have more "peak
experiences" - experiences that put them in touch with the infinite and
eternal. People in the self-actualization stage can still have problems
- grief, sorrow, and even guilt and anxiety, but their responses
reflect the listed characteristics.

pam sorooshian

On Nov 22, 2004, at 5:49 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

> Maslow's self-actualization has traditionally been thought to be for
> adults, past school age. I look at the descriptions now, though, of
> self-actualization, and I know teens who are there. Unschooled teens.

I see children who are there - maybe kids under 8 or 9 or so are mostly
still going through the Maslow levels, but I think those kids from
around 9 to 12 whom we sometimes describe as "soaking up learning like
a sponge" or are sometimes described as being in the "fact-gathering
stage," are at least in some kind of kid equivalent of Maslow's
"Self-Actualization" stage.

-pam

myfunny4

--- In [email protected], "Tracey Inman"
<traceyi@s...> wrote:
> That a group like this isn't really needed or helpful? >

It depends. I joined HSLDA because at the time I was homeschooling
a child with significant multiple special needs, and I homeschool in
Pennsylvania, one of the most regulated states. HSLDA is committed
to helping parents homeschool children with special needs.

Debbie

pam sorooshian

On Nov 22, 2004, at 1:16 PM, myfunny4 wrote:

> It depends. I joined HSLDA because at the time I was homeschooling
> a child with significant multiple special needs, and I homeschool in
> Pennsylvania, one of the most regulated states. HSLDA is committed
> to helping parents homeschool children with special needs.

On the other hand, they have something to do with PA having difficult
homeschooling laws in the first place, according to my friends in PA,
anyway.

Debbie - it is good to see you here and I'm SO sorry to learn of your
loss. My heart goes out to you.

I have a 17 yo and she doesn't know what she wants to do and she
dabbles in all kinds of things - even taking some college courses, but
not enrolled in a full college program - and, in fact, neither does my
18 yo niece know what she wants to do, but she is going to go to
college next year anyway - to a "liberal arts" college - just because
it is expected. BIG price tag for a kid who has no reason for even
going (other than that that is what she's expected to do).

I have a 20 year old who DOES know what she wants to do and she'll be
going to a college this spring with purpose in mind and that's awesome.
I'm a college professor and I try really hard to discourage kids from
going to college unless they can explain (to themselves, at least) what
they're doing there.

Maybe you can arm your 15 yo with the information that you have an
online friend who is a college professor and she thinks that 15 yo's
should not be thinking about college as if that is a sensible goal in
and of itself, but should be experimenting with all kinds of activities
and pursuing those that interest them and that, eventually, if college
turns out to be something that will help them, they'll figure that out
when the time is right.

-pam

Jason & Stephanie

-----
> It depends. I joined HSLDA because at the time I was homeschooling
> a child with significant multiple special needs, and I homeschool in
> Pennsylvania, one of the most regulated states. HSLDA is committed
> to helping parents homeschool children with special needs.

On the other hand, they have something to do with PA having difficult
homeschooling laws in the first place, according to my friends in PA,
anyway.>>>>>>>>>>>.

****That is what I have heard also, they aren't much for standing up for people here and I don't agree with how they interpret the law. Debbie are you still in PA? Are you on PA-Unschoolers? I'm sorry for your loss.
Stephanie in PA



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marjorie Kirk

He also thought that sometimes extreme problems in getting basic needs met -
like death of a parent or divorce or periods of hunger as a child or abuse
at the hands of a parent - these things could make someone get stuck at that
level for their whole life - never be able to really feel that their needs
in that area are satisfied and so constantly be trying to meet those needs
and therefore never be able to move to the next level.
****************************************************************************
*****************************************
This really struck a cord with me. One of my very best friends recently
adopted a boy who had been removed from his home for abuse and neglect. He
then spent 5 years in various foster homes (He was also removed from a
foster home because of abuse). The problem now is that he can't seem to
regulate his food intake. If his mom doesn't tell him he's had enough, he
will eat until he throws up. He also steals food and hides to eat it, even
though they almost always say yes to any request for food. He recently got
up when the rest of the family was sleeping and ate two dozen cookies. I
wonder if he will be stuck with this unfulfilled need his whole life. I
suggested "unfooding" him, by just letting him eat whatever he wants, but
between him throwing up, and eating all of the entire family's goodies she
just doesn't think it will work. Any suggestions?

Marjorie

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/22/04 6:55:20 PM, mkirk@... writes:

<< I
suggested "unfooding" him, by just letting him eat whatever he wants, but
between him throwing up, and eating all of the entire family's goodies she
just doesn't think it will work. Any suggestions? >>

Cheaper cookies. Vanilla wafers. Peanut butter. Cheese.
Throwing up won't be forever.

Cooking with him, so maybe he sees the hard work that went into making the
stuff and he won't want to eat it all.

Eating until he throws up won't kill him. Models do it all the time. (A
joke, a bad joke.)

Sandra

Marjorie Kirk

Thanks for the suggestions. I should have been a little clearer. She let
him eat and throw up for months, thinking he would self-regulate. He
didn't. I'm not sure how long it would take, or if it would work
eventually, but she's not willing to wait and see. He does cook and is
aware of how time-consuming food prep can be. They have four other kids and
keep a very well stocked pantry, plus my friend's DH is a chef and cooks all
kinds of fabulous things. He has access to a lot of food, but it's never
enough. He steals his siblings' Halloween candy. He stole and ate the
snacks his teacher keeps in her desk. He sneaks candy at home, although he
doesn't have to. He scavenges candy off the floor of the car, etc. If the
problem is emotional eating, what else can be done so that the throwing up
*isn't* forever?

Thanks,
Marjorie

-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 9:15 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Maslow



In a message dated 11/22/04 6:55:20 PM, mkirk@... writes:

<< I
suggested "unfooding" him, by just letting him eat whatever he wants, but
between him throwing up, and eating all of the entire family's goodies she
just doesn't think it will work. Any suggestions? >>

Cheaper cookies. Vanilla wafers. Peanut butter. Cheese.
Throwing up won't be forever.

Cooking with him, so maybe he sees the hard work that went into making the
stuff and he won't want to eat it all.

Eating until he throws up won't kill him. Models do it all the time. (A
joke, a bad joke.)

Sandra


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Daniela

Marjorie Kirk wrote:

> he
> will eat until he throws up. He also steals food and hides to eat it,
> even
> though they almost always say yes to any request for food.

One thing they can try is have an uncle or a neighbour, someone outside
the family (and if possible, a little overweight) come visit. He should
tell the boy very seriously, "you know, I've heard a terrible thing
about you: I've heard these nasty people aren't feeding you enough... is
that right? Because I am going to make sure this happens no longer...."
And if it sounds it's working, he could visit and feed him, and feed
him, and he'll probably say, no thanks at a point, but if he throws up,
have the man say, "Oh, dear, you had a little too much... oy, it must
have been centuries you have been hungry and not eating enough.... but
I'll come here twice a day to feed you if necessary, and make sure it
does not happen anymore.... and here is my telephone number, call me if
you need me, anytime...."
Lots of Auschwitz survivors did that for decades, however, they got a
life anyway... found jobs, found soulmates, and found friends anyway...
Tell your friend not to worry too much (yes. yes, I know it's very
difficult)

My best wishes

Daniela

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/23/2004 1:36:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mkirk@... writes:

If the
problem is emotional eating, what else can be done so that the throwing up
*isn't* forever?<<<<
What does the *child* say?

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

myfunny4

--- In [email protected], "Marjorie Kirk"
<mkirk@c...> wrote:
>If the
> problem is emotional eating, what else can be done so that the
throwing up
> *isn't* forever?
>


Dear Marjorie,

Has a pediatrician been consulted? The activities you describe are
symptoms of Prader-Willi Syndrome. Just a thought.

Debbie

Marjorie Kirk

When they ask him why he takes the food, he denies it (even with the
wrappers under his pillow and chocolate all over his face). When asked
"What would we say if you asked us for the food?" His response is: "You'd
say yes." When asked why he sneaks food, he just says "I duuno." When
asked why he eats until he throws up, he says he can't feel when he's full.
Not much help.


Marjorie

-----Original Message-----
From: kbcdlovejo@... [mailto:kbcdlovejo@...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 6:07 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Maslow


In a message dated 11/23/2004 1:36:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mkirk@... writes:

If the
problem is emotional eating, what else can be done so that the throwing up
*isn't* forever?<<<<
What does the *child* say?

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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myfunny4

--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
>
>
> On the other hand, they have something to do with PA having
difficult
> homeschooling laws in the first place, according to my friends in
PA,
> anyway.
>

Well, the blame (and shame) can be shared with a PA homeschooler who
was involved in writing the law, and whose homeschooling business
benefits from the law, and who vehemently opposed homeschoolers'
attempt to revise the law a couple years ago.

> Debbie - it is good to see you here and I'm SO sorry to learn of
your
> loss. My heart goes out to you.

Thank you, Pam.

Also, I did share your comments with my daughter, and - never one to
miss an opportunity - has a question for you: "What do college
professors really want to see in a student? What makes a successful
student in college? Thank you." (She's a very polite person!)

Everyone's comments have been helpful, and I've been printing them
out and letting my daughter read them.

Thanks, again.

Debbie

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Marjorie Kirk <mkirk@...>

> He stole and ate the
snacks his teacher keeps in her desk.  He sneaks candy at home, although he
doesn't have to.  He scavenges candy off the floor of the car, etc.  <

Is he in counseling? Is someone talking to him about *why* he's acting this way? How old is he?

Michelle B.

Linda

--- Marjorie Kirk <mkirk@...> wrote:
>>He has access to a lot of food, but it's never
enough. He steals his siblings' Halloween candy.
He stole and ate the snacks his teacher keeps in her
desk. He sneaks candy at home, although he doesn't
have to. He scavenges candy off the floor of the car,
etc. If the problem is emotional eating, what else
can be done so that the throwing up *isn't* forever?<<

I suspect, though his parents have allowed him the
freedom to eat as much as he wants and throw up as
much as he wants, that this is still a control issue,
and there is a lot still there to keep him obsessive
about it. He knows he's not supposed to do it, and
that he's supposed to get better. I was allowed
freedom of eating, but there was a tacit understanding
in our family that one could eat too much (and that I
*was* eating too much) and that some foods were bad.
This was enough to create an unhealthy craving in me.
I snuck food too, because I felt ashamed -- I bet he
does too.

It has been a hard, hard habit to break, and I feel
like I'm still recovering at 38 years of age. I think
you said they had been at this for several months,
well, it just may take longer than that for him to get
emotionally healthy. What's more is that with the
crazy eating his chemical feedback system may be
messed up -- he may literally not be able to recognize
anymore when his body needs him to stop.

What worked for me was to get out of that judgemental
environment -- living alone. With no one looking over
my shoulder, I could relax a little, so that the
relational issues were no longer overwhelmingly at the
forefront of my consciousness and I could begin to
really feel and listen to what was happening to my
body, and feel that my decisions ultimately rested
with me and what *I* wanted and believed. I assume
they either don't want to or can't do this for him
(allowing him enough of his own space that his food
preparation and intake can be separate from the rest
of the family's.) All I can think is going as extreme
Sudbury as they can stand. In other words, give him
not only freedom of eating, but also freedom from
their judgement (implying freedom to make his own
judgements.) I think, short of shaming or forcing him
to stop, that that is all that will work permanently
and deeply and long-term.

-Linda

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[email protected]

In a message dated 11/22/04 11:36:05 PM, mkirk@... writes:

<< He has access to a lot of food, but it's never
enough. He steals his siblings' Halloween candy. He stole and ate the
snacks his teacher keeps in her desk. . . >>


A friend of mine broke her neck when she was 24 and lived in the hospital for
a couple of years, outlasting every other patient AND every other nurse or
attendant. She was on a neurological ward, and I met several of her roommates.
One day I went to see her and her door was tied shut with sheets, through
the handle to the handrail.

Turned out they had moved her and put another patient in there, because it
had a stronger, harder window. They were afraid this guy might go out the
window, even though it was the 7th floor or so.

It was tied shut because it was mealtime.

This guy had been hit by a train, and he was hardly even hurt, physically,
but it was such a blow to the head that he had brain damage. And what had been
damaged was the part of him that would say "Oh, that's enough food now."

He was starving. He would eat salt and pepper packets and drink shampoo.
The night before, he had gone to the rack of dinner trays and been grabbing
everything he could reach and shoving it in his mouth, and had ruined twenty trays
or so before they stopped him, so his door was tied shut long enough for them
to distribute other meals.

I don't know how it was treated, but it did make me know that there's such a
thing as a switch that says "full" and his had been broken.

Sandra