OHIO- Home Schooling An Akron Beacon Journal Special Series (3)
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This article is mostly about the topic of homeschooling in general but if
you scan through it a bit you will see an interview with pam S. The article is
about "socialization" public school Vs homeschool, so those not wanting to
read, delete now. LOL and those wanting to skip to pam's part I have marked
it with a few ****** so you can see where her part begins. I Hope this wasn't
too long to post here.
Pam G
Posted on Tue, Nov. 16, 2004
Parents want to control influences; critics see need for wide exposure
Beyond books
BRYAN, TEXAS: - Diversity
Activities
Steve Beck begs to differ with anyone who believes his children are
not properly ``socialized.''
``Our philosophy is to engage the world -- not lead a secluded life.
We want to have an impact on the culture,'' said Beck, who, along
with his wife, Kerry, home-schools their three children -- Ashley,
16, Gentry, 14, and Hunter, 11.
As the Beacon Journal examined the state of home schooling in
America, no issue sparked more debate or stronger emotions than
socialization.
The Becks epitomize the independent streak found in many home
educators.
Steve, who has a degree in agronomy from Texas A&M, and Kerry, who
has a double major and a master's in educationfrom Stephen F. Austin
State University in Texas, are entrepreneurs. They run a home-school
curriculum and supplies company, and an online business selling
materials to reload shotgun shells. Ashley, Gentry and Hunter pitch
in.
Steve writes books and is a Calvinist minister. They recently moved
from Bryan, Texas, to Moscow, Idaho, so he can attend a seminary.
Kerry is the primary teacher for the children.
As a family, they travel to trade shows and conventions, mixing
business with the chance to spend time with other home-schooling
families.
The Becks are active in their community. They attend church. The
parents vote. Their children play on home-school basketball teams.
The girls love archery, and Ashley is a three-time state champion
skeet shooter for girls her age.
The Becks aren't sitting at home with windows shuttered and doors
closed, lives cut off from the rest of the world. So it bothers them
and most other home schoolers when people ask: ``Are your children
being properly socialized?''
A July U.S. Department of Education report on home schoolers found
that 31 percent kept their children home out of concern about what
children are exposed to in public and private schools. Another 30
percent said they wanted to control their children's understanding of
religious or moral ideas.
Only 16 percent named academic instruction as a reason.
The recent study and one in 1999 that had similar findings make it
clear that home-schooling parents want to be the primary influence on
their children's moral, ethical and religious views. They don't want
their children to be socialized by educators or other children in the
public- or private-school setting.
Among Christian home schoolers, this idea is often expressed as their
``worldview.''
For others, known as unschoolers or inclusives, there is a ``me and
my children'' approach that asserts that no one -- or no government
-- should interfere with their lives. They resent negative outside
influences and want to keep their children from being programmed by
commercial, materialistic views present in society. They want their
children protected from the cliques, bullies and potential violence
in schools.
`Fortress home'
Other researchers view the issue differently.
Michael Apple, a University of Wisconsin professor who opposes home
schooling, believes most religious families want their children in a
protected environment, a phenomenon he calls ``cocooning'' within
their ``fortress home.''
Home schools are ``the equivalent of gated communities in which their
children will not be tempted by sinful ways or ways that go against
their religious beliefs,'' Apple said.
He said these families have a worldview that they believe represents
the truth when it comes to God. They do not recognize, nor do they
want their children exposed to, the broader society, where
``different truths'' may be represented.
``That's a pretty dangerous position to take, to me. It's a little
disrespectful of large numbers of equally religious people who may
believe that God spoke in Islamic terms or spoke to Moses or spoke in
multiple Christian voices that are not recognized as being really
Christian by many home schoolers,'' Apple said. The words ``freedom''
and ``liberty'' ring hollow considering the intolerance among home
schoolers for other ideas, he said.
``You can't say at the same time, `Let a thousand flowers bloom' and
`All voices be heard' and then say, `Yeah, but ours is the only right
voice,' which means that the ultimate goal for my freedom is to deny
you the freedom. In a nice way, I will convert you, I will smile and
give you the only truth,'' Apple said.
Suspicion, distrust
Home-schooling parents represent about 2 percent of the school-age
children in America.
The idea that home-schooling parents believe their approach is the
best way to educate children chafes others who continue to enroll
their children in traditional settings.
There are feelings of suspicion and distrust on both sides.
``I get people asking me,`Aren't you worried your kids aren't going
to socialize?' '' a home-schooling mother told a Beacon Journal focus
group in which participants were granted anonymity.
``My kids socialized more after I pulled them out of school than they
did when they were in school,'' she said. ``I wish that the public
understood we aren't all sitting at home around the kitchen table all
day long.''
A children's services worker said parents are isolating their
children. ``I really think it's emotional abuse when you don't allow
your children to interact with other children, other people,'' she
said.
Many non-home schoolers share the belief that home-schooled children
are too confined to their own worlds and that socialization comes
from learning to get along in different settings with people from
different backgrounds.
``They don't want diversity. That is why they home-school,'' a focus
group member said. ``They want (the children) to be with people who
have the same value system.''
Teamwork with Legos
Home-schooling parents contend that their children are active in
their communities, and move easily and comfortably among children and
adults of all ages.
Their flexible schedules provide opportunities to pick among
community and political events. They organize field trips and meet in
groups to learn and play.
Home schoolers are active in 4-H, dance, theater, music and choir,
and scouting. Young girls join Keepers of the Home. Home schoolers
increasingly form sports leagues or enter competitions that bring
them into contact with public- and private-school children.
When Keyan Paglialunga, 15, read about a Lego robot competition, he
and Anna Friddle, 15, both of Canton, started recruiting teammates
among children they knew from their Creative Learning in My Backyard
(CLIMB) home-schooling group.
It was an intriguing challenge: build a functioning robot using
microprocessors and Lego blocks, and compete against the designs of
other home-schooled, private- and public-school students statewide.
Every Monday for six weeks, they met for half a day at the NASA Glenn
Research Center near Cleveland Hopkins International Airport. Keyan's
mom, Bonnie, their coach, helped them research the project and
program the robot.
At a Stark County church in February, as the demonstration began, it
was clear the children worked well together. With only two team
members at the competition table at one time, they politely took
turns running ``Bob the Bot.''
Their entry won the regional competition, allowing the nine-member
team to go the state championship at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base
outside Dayton, where they finished third.
``I think it was an opportunity of a lifetime,'' said Kevin Knabel, a
13-year-old home-schooled student from Green.
Ohio gathering
Home schoolers also socialize with other home schoolers.
On a warm June afternoon in Columbus, hundreds of Christian Home
Educators of Ohio members, other parents and their children browsed
through the large convention hall at Franklin County Veterans
Memorial auditorium.
CHEO is a statewide group, but Ohio has scores of local home-school
support organizations whose members meet regularly to share ideas and
lesson plans, receive legal advice, teach needed classes, find
academic assessors or provide guidance for families.
More than 300 vendors in the convention hall displayed their wares,
ranging from starter kits to information on numerous Christian
colleges.
Thousands of books were stacked, shelved, mounted on stands or
hanging from racks. They encompassed a range of subjects from math to
spelling to hagiographic biographies.
The conference ended with a high school graduation commencement
ceremony.
Before 69 students and their parents walked across the stage, the
crowd stood, placed their right hands over their hearts, and recited:
``I pledge allegiance to the Christian Flag and to the Saviour, for
whose Kingdom it stands, One Savior, crucified, risen and coming
again, with life and liberty for all who believe.''
Youth sports group
In Texas, when Tom Sanders walks into the Kinkaid School, a private
school in an upscale suburb of Houston, the lanky basketball coach
and father of six home-schooled children is greeted with affection.
Young people grab his arm and smile. Men throw their arms around him
and embrace with a comfortable hug.
Sanders, a lawyer and registered Texas lobbyist for the Home School
Legal Defense Association, formed theHomeschool Christian Youth
Association for his children and several hundred others who wanted a
chance to play basketball, baseball, softball and volleyball and to
develop their Christian character.
``It became very personal for me because I had a son who fit that
category,'' Sanders said.
He coaches the varsity boys basketball team that has been invited to
open tournaments in Texas and has traveled to Oklahoma to play. He
said the team is equivalent to a small public or private school for
classification purposes, and was one of the better squads in Texas
last season.
``One huge reason is the character of these young men. They're not
perfect, but they're very teachable, very attentive, very willing to
learn, very willing to apply themselves to do what we ask,'' Sanders
said.
He said home schooling and parents' rights take precedence over the
team.
``I had a practice last night. One of my best players didn't come
because Mom and Dad had family plans. What am I going to do? Yell at
them to disobey Mom? Disobey Dad?'' Sanders said.
Religious motivations
Steve and Kerry Beck acknowledge that it is what many evangelicals
call their ``Christian worldview'' that drives them. The phrase means
that all aspects of the universe owe their existence to a Christian
God.
They said they pulled their children from private religious schools
because teachers were stressing academics rather than building a
religious foundation.
``We really want our kids to rule and reign for Christ. We couldn't
do that on a haphazard basis,'' said Steve Beck. ``The whole idea is
we're training battle-hardened soldiers for Christ. The private
Christian school wasn't going to do that.''
The Becks wanted a sense of togetherness in their church, so they
joined the small, rural Confederation of Reformed Evangelicals that
was active in the community.
``I saw it as a very good way to disciple men,'' Steve Beck said.
The influence has been profound. The family moved to Idaho in August
so that Steve can study at a seminary run by Douglas Wilson, an
outspoken critic of big government and especially public education.
Wilson co-authored a book that argues that Civil War abolitionists
ignored the teachings of the Bible, which recognizes slavery.
Beck said Wilson's ``main goal is to get people to think.'' The Bible
urges good relationships between slaves and masters, and that's what
prevailed in the prewar South, Beck said.
The South was fighting for states' rights, not for slavery, Beck
said. Because the South lost, we now have the ``leviathan''
government intruding on all aspects of our lives.
Public schools are an example, he said. Before public education was
created in the 1800s, anyone who wanted an education could find one
for free, and the literacy rate was much higher than it is today, he
said.
Beck said that people coming out of Wilson's school are ``changing
the culture from the inside out,'' and that Christians need to
infiltrate the world.
``We're in the New Covenant. We're not using swords. We're using the
Spirit,'' Beck said.
In his book, A Father's Stew, Beck writes that Christians must reject
the notions that women need work to be fulfilled, parents should
pursue careers by dumping their children in day-care centers
(disparagingly referred to as ``concentration camps'') and education
can be provided only by so-called experts.
The Becks want their children to go to college, but they have
different aspirations for the three, depending on the gender.
Steve Beck would like his son to become an engineer and wants the
girls to get liberal arts degrees so they are able to ``have sons and
daughters and teach them to think.''
``I'm not keen on a daughter becoming a doctor and working 90 hours a
week,'' he said.
Jorge Gomez, president of the North Texas Home Educators Network in
the Dallas-Fort Worth area, has a worldview similar to the Becks'.
Gomez, who came to the United States from Mexico when he was 7,
prefers the Anglicized pronunciation ``George'' for Jorge. He
discourages discussion of his Hispanic heritage and of diversity
among home schoolers because ``we are all one. Home schooling is the
great equalizer.''
Gomez, a businessman, and his wife, have three children and are
evangelical Christians. He chooses to ``home-church'' by not
participating in an organized congregation.
He's troubled by pop culture and what children learn in organized
schools.
``We have the freedom to choose. In a school, you don't know what
books they're being shown. There are more quotes from Marilyn Monroe
than from FDR or about World War II. They don't need pop culture or
revisionist history,'' Gomez said.
Image problem
The strong religious views that the Becks, Gomez and others hold can
stir anti-home schooling feelings in the larger community. In
interviews and focus groups, many non-home schoolers pointed to a
``holier than thou'' attitude that they said permeates many families
in the movement.
A public-school parent said in a Beacon Journal focus group that a
relative is a fundamentalist Christian who home-schools.
``There is just this arrogance. We all laugh and say, `What is she
going to do when she gets to heaven and we are standing there
greeting her?' She is going to have a fit when she gets up there, and
there we are,'' the parent said.
Some home schoolers are aware of this image problem.
``Sometimes I think, coming from a home-schooled mentality, we have
to be very careful that we are not teaching our children that home
schoolers are better than other people,'' a Christian mother said.
Unschoolers and inclusives in the movement unite with their Christian
counterparts on most home-school issues, but they often resent
efforts to impose biblical, faith-based ideas about such topics as
abortion, same-sex marriage and stem-cell research on them and the
rest of society.
In a focus group, an unschooler mother said Christian home schoolers
are rigid in their beliefs -- ``Everybody else is wrong.''
Although religious home schoolers garner the most attention, the
movement is vast and diverse.
*********More diverse
Pam Sorooshian, an econometrician from Long Beach, Calif., describes
herself as a non-Christian, politically independent person in a
multicultural marriage. She believes home schoolers are unfairly
targeted for criticism because they are so closely identified with
the religious right.
Sorooshian is co-founder of the National Home Educators Network, a
group known as ``inclusives'' because members represent a network of
various religions, races, ethnicities and family structures. The
group includes bisexuals, pagans, atheists, Mormons, Catholics,
Baptists, Jews, Muslims, blacks, Latinos, Asians and Middle Eastern
families, she said.
``We have mixed families, gay couples with children, single mothers,
working mothers. We have stay-at-home dads. We have a far better
cross section of the community than the elementary school that we
pulled my 9-year-old out of, which was all-white, had no other races
of any kind, and every kid there came from an upper-middle-class
neighborhood surrounding the school,'' Sorooshian said in a
presentation at the annual American Educational Research Association
meeting in San Diego this year.
``Inclusive'' is a term referring to a group open to anyone,
including Christians, Sorooshian told the Beacon Journal.
``There is a huge difference between the typical Christian home
schooler and the typical inclusive home schoolers,'' Sorooshian said.
``Inclusives have an underlying desire to have their kids out in the
world and more exposed to the world. Christian home schoolers are
just trying to protect their children.''
She said the idea that inclusive children from home-schooling
families are growing up intolerant and uncivil is ludicrous.
She said she started home schooling because her children's public
school was not diverse enough.
Now, her children are exposed to a wide variety of people of
different backgrounds, ages, religions and cultures.
``In our case, we wanted far more real relationships than what our
kids were getting in school,'' Sorooshian said.
Backer wants oversight
Rob Reich, a Stanford University professor who maintains that he
supports home schooling, believes that many parents wield too much
control over their children and don't want them exposed to contrary
ideas.
He contends that children need to learn to participate in a diverse
democracy.
``In no other setting are parents as able to direct in all aspects
the education of their children, for in home schools they are
responsible not only for determining what their children shall learn,
but when, how and with whom they shall learn,'' Reich said in a
published essay, Testing the Boundaries of Parental Authority Over
Education: The Case of Homeschooling.
Many home-schooling parents see Reich as an opponent because he wants
government to play a larger oversight role.
He said that while home-schooling parents insist they must have the
freedom to raise their children, they often are intolerant of anyone
with different views.
``Children can grow up to become ethically servile to their parents,
which is incompatible with them being free persons,'' Reich saidin a
Beacon Journal interview.
In his speeches and writings, Reich talks about two concepts of
society: one in which citizens vote their own interests and the
majority rules; and one in which citizens are involved, talk to each
other and exchange ideas in the public forum before taking a majority
vote.
He believes that home-schooling parents are preventing their children
from being part of the public forum, and that the children are being
raised in isolation. If they're not part of that forum, they may not
know that other views on life exist.
``I think that is a potentially disabling aspect of home schooling,''
Reich told the Beacon Journal.
The state cannot mandate that children from diverse backgrounds come
together, but Reich said government can and should insist upon
curricula that expose children to different religions, cultures and
points of view.
``Not all home schoolers are going to like this, but this will be
part of the aim of regulation -- to ensure that even within a
home-school environment, children are introduced to and exposed to
the world of diversity in a liberal democracy,'' Reich said at the
same discussion of education research that Sorooshian attended.
Sorooshian, the inclusive, countered that home schoolers are
perplexed when they hear that kind of idea.
``Do we know if we can teach good citizenship?'' she asked. ``Do we
know anything about how to teach it? How can they regulate us to make
sure we taught our children good citizenship? Require them to go to
Girl Scouts?''
Extracurriculars
Reich believes public schools should be required to let home-schooled
children play on sports teams and in bands, and sign up for other
extracurricular activities.
``It's the wrong stance to take from a public point of view to forbid
home-school children from participating in public school
activities,'' Reich told the Beacon Journal. ``It ought to be done
precisely because it gives the home-school kids an opportunity to
interact with more people than they would otherwise in a way that
might have civic benefits.''
As the movement has grown, more home-schooled children are having
contact with public schools.
The 2001 U.S. Department of Education study, released in July of this
year, found that about 20 percent of the estimated 1.1 million
home-schooled students were enrolled part time in public schools.
Many states give local school officials the authority to accept or
reject home-school students on a part-time basis. In return, some
districts that accept part-timers receive funding based on how many
classes a home-schooling student takes.
Hugh Caumartin, superintendent of Bowling Green schools in northwest
Ohio, said he has seen an increase in home schoolers interacting with
his district.
``We do have home-schooled students taking classes in our schools.
Typically, they take music, art, science with labs, sports,''
Caumartin said.
These interactions have not come without friction. Home schoolers are
accused of cherry-picking public services.
Home schoolers counter that they pay taxes and should be allowed to
take classes.
Finances, fairness
Most states defer to local school districts, giving superintendents
and boards the authority to devise policies on accepting home
schoolers for classes or extracurricular activities.
Some public school officials refuse to provide services to
home-schooled students, citing finances and fairness as reasons.
Many school officials believe extracurricular activities are rewards
or bonuses used as incentives for academic achievement. Public school
students must meet certain academic standards -- such as passing
tests or achieving minimum grade-point averages -- before being
allowed to play on a sports team or take part in extracurricular
activities. Home-schooled students are not held to the same standards.
In Easton, Pa., home schoolers and the school board clashed over
allowing children to play football. In Texas, legislation has been
introduced to give home schoolers access to sports and debate teams.
In West Virginia, a judge ruled a family could place their son on a
wrestling team. In Dayton, Christian schools have accepted home
schoolers into their classes and included them in extracurricular
activities.
Although home schoolers and their attorneys have been consistently
victorious in legal battles, this is one area where courts have
decided in favor of public schools more often than not.
``I wish that the schools would be more accepting of kids joining in
sports and the extracurricular activities like band,'' an unschooler
mom in a Beacon Journal focus group said. ``I think the one thing we
would want to go to high school for is the extracurricular
activities.''
She offered a solution that would not be popular with most public
school parents.
``I would ultimately like to see the extracurricular stuff taken
completely out of the schools and made free-standing, like Barberton
Little League is not a school-related organization. It's a separate
thing, and the kids go play baseball together,'' she said.
Coming Wednesday: Troubling situations in home schooling.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
you scan through it a bit you will see an interview with pam S. The article is
about "socialization" public school Vs homeschool, so those not wanting to
read, delete now. LOL and those wanting to skip to pam's part I have marked
it with a few ****** so you can see where her part begins. I Hope this wasn't
too long to post here.
Pam G
>>>>>http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/10193415.htm
Posted on Tue, Nov. 16, 2004
Parents want to control influences; critics see need for wide exposure
Beyond books
BRYAN, TEXAS: - Diversity
Activities
Steve Beck begs to differ with anyone who believes his children are
not properly ``socialized.''
``Our philosophy is to engage the world -- not lead a secluded life.
We want to have an impact on the culture,'' said Beck, who, along
with his wife, Kerry, home-schools their three children -- Ashley,
16, Gentry, 14, and Hunter, 11.
As the Beacon Journal examined the state of home schooling in
America, no issue sparked more debate or stronger emotions than
socialization.
The Becks epitomize the independent streak found in many home
educators.
Steve, who has a degree in agronomy from Texas A&M, and Kerry, who
has a double major and a master's in educationfrom Stephen F. Austin
State University in Texas, are entrepreneurs. They run a home-school
curriculum and supplies company, and an online business selling
materials to reload shotgun shells. Ashley, Gentry and Hunter pitch
in.
Steve writes books and is a Calvinist minister. They recently moved
from Bryan, Texas, to Moscow, Idaho, so he can attend a seminary.
Kerry is the primary teacher for the children.
As a family, they travel to trade shows and conventions, mixing
business with the chance to spend time with other home-schooling
families.
The Becks are active in their community. They attend church. The
parents vote. Their children play on home-school basketball teams.
The girls love archery, and Ashley is a three-time state champion
skeet shooter for girls her age.
The Becks aren't sitting at home with windows shuttered and doors
closed, lives cut off from the rest of the world. So it bothers them
and most other home schoolers when people ask: ``Are your children
being properly socialized?''
A July U.S. Department of Education report on home schoolers found
that 31 percent kept their children home out of concern about what
children are exposed to in public and private schools. Another 30
percent said they wanted to control their children's understanding of
religious or moral ideas.
Only 16 percent named academic instruction as a reason.
The recent study and one in 1999 that had similar findings make it
clear that home-schooling parents want to be the primary influence on
their children's moral, ethical and religious views. They don't want
their children to be socialized by educators or other children in the
public- or private-school setting.
Among Christian home schoolers, this idea is often expressed as their
``worldview.''
For others, known as unschoolers or inclusives, there is a ``me and
my children'' approach that asserts that no one -- or no government
-- should interfere with their lives. They resent negative outside
influences and want to keep their children from being programmed by
commercial, materialistic views present in society. They want their
children protected from the cliques, bullies and potential violence
in schools.
`Fortress home'
Other researchers view the issue differently.
Michael Apple, a University of Wisconsin professor who opposes home
schooling, believes most religious families want their children in a
protected environment, a phenomenon he calls ``cocooning'' within
their ``fortress home.''
Home schools are ``the equivalent of gated communities in which their
children will not be tempted by sinful ways or ways that go against
their religious beliefs,'' Apple said.
He said these families have a worldview that they believe represents
the truth when it comes to God. They do not recognize, nor do they
want their children exposed to, the broader society, where
``different truths'' may be represented.
``That's a pretty dangerous position to take, to me. It's a little
disrespectful of large numbers of equally religious people who may
believe that God spoke in Islamic terms or spoke to Moses or spoke in
multiple Christian voices that are not recognized as being really
Christian by many home schoolers,'' Apple said. The words ``freedom''
and ``liberty'' ring hollow considering the intolerance among home
schoolers for other ideas, he said.
``You can't say at the same time, `Let a thousand flowers bloom' and
`All voices be heard' and then say, `Yeah, but ours is the only right
voice,' which means that the ultimate goal for my freedom is to deny
you the freedom. In a nice way, I will convert you, I will smile and
give you the only truth,'' Apple said.
Suspicion, distrust
Home-schooling parents represent about 2 percent of the school-age
children in America.
The idea that home-schooling parents believe their approach is the
best way to educate children chafes others who continue to enroll
their children in traditional settings.
There are feelings of suspicion and distrust on both sides.
``I get people asking me,`Aren't you worried your kids aren't going
to socialize?' '' a home-schooling mother told a Beacon Journal focus
group in which participants were granted anonymity.
``My kids socialized more after I pulled them out of school than they
did when they were in school,'' she said. ``I wish that the public
understood we aren't all sitting at home around the kitchen table all
day long.''
A children's services worker said parents are isolating their
children. ``I really think it's emotional abuse when you don't allow
your children to interact with other children, other people,'' she
said.
Many non-home schoolers share the belief that home-schooled children
are too confined to their own worlds and that socialization comes
from learning to get along in different settings with people from
different backgrounds.
``They don't want diversity. That is why they home-school,'' a focus
group member said. ``They want (the children) to be with people who
have the same value system.''
Teamwork with Legos
Home-schooling parents contend that their children are active in
their communities, and move easily and comfortably among children and
adults of all ages.
Their flexible schedules provide opportunities to pick among
community and political events. They organize field trips and meet in
groups to learn and play.
Home schoolers are active in 4-H, dance, theater, music and choir,
and scouting. Young girls join Keepers of the Home. Home schoolers
increasingly form sports leagues or enter competitions that bring
them into contact with public- and private-school children.
When Keyan Paglialunga, 15, read about a Lego robot competition, he
and Anna Friddle, 15, both of Canton, started recruiting teammates
among children they knew from their Creative Learning in My Backyard
(CLIMB) home-schooling group.
It was an intriguing challenge: build a functioning robot using
microprocessors and Lego blocks, and compete against the designs of
other home-schooled, private- and public-school students statewide.
Every Monday for six weeks, they met for half a day at the NASA Glenn
Research Center near Cleveland Hopkins International Airport. Keyan's
mom, Bonnie, their coach, helped them research the project and
program the robot.
At a Stark County church in February, as the demonstration began, it
was clear the children worked well together. With only two team
members at the competition table at one time, they politely took
turns running ``Bob the Bot.''
Their entry won the regional competition, allowing the nine-member
team to go the state championship at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base
outside Dayton, where they finished third.
``I think it was an opportunity of a lifetime,'' said Kevin Knabel, a
13-year-old home-schooled student from Green.
Ohio gathering
Home schoolers also socialize with other home schoolers.
On a warm June afternoon in Columbus, hundreds of Christian Home
Educators of Ohio members, other parents and their children browsed
through the large convention hall at Franklin County Veterans
Memorial auditorium.
CHEO is a statewide group, but Ohio has scores of local home-school
support organizations whose members meet regularly to share ideas and
lesson plans, receive legal advice, teach needed classes, find
academic assessors or provide guidance for families.
More than 300 vendors in the convention hall displayed their wares,
ranging from starter kits to information on numerous Christian
colleges.
Thousands of books were stacked, shelved, mounted on stands or
hanging from racks. They encompassed a range of subjects from math to
spelling to hagiographic biographies.
The conference ended with a high school graduation commencement
ceremony.
Before 69 students and their parents walked across the stage, the
crowd stood, placed their right hands over their hearts, and recited:
``I pledge allegiance to the Christian Flag and to the Saviour, for
whose Kingdom it stands, One Savior, crucified, risen and coming
again, with life and liberty for all who believe.''
Youth sports group
In Texas, when Tom Sanders walks into the Kinkaid School, a private
school in an upscale suburb of Houston, the lanky basketball coach
and father of six home-schooled children is greeted with affection.
Young people grab his arm and smile. Men throw their arms around him
and embrace with a comfortable hug.
Sanders, a lawyer and registered Texas lobbyist for the Home School
Legal Defense Association, formed theHomeschool Christian Youth
Association for his children and several hundred others who wanted a
chance to play basketball, baseball, softball and volleyball and to
develop their Christian character.
``It became very personal for me because I had a son who fit that
category,'' Sanders said.
He coaches the varsity boys basketball team that has been invited to
open tournaments in Texas and has traveled to Oklahoma to play. He
said the team is equivalent to a small public or private school for
classification purposes, and was one of the better squads in Texas
last season.
``One huge reason is the character of these young men. They're not
perfect, but they're very teachable, very attentive, very willing to
learn, very willing to apply themselves to do what we ask,'' Sanders
said.
He said home schooling and parents' rights take precedence over the
team.
``I had a practice last night. One of my best players didn't come
because Mom and Dad had family plans. What am I going to do? Yell at
them to disobey Mom? Disobey Dad?'' Sanders said.
Religious motivations
Steve and Kerry Beck acknowledge that it is what many evangelicals
call their ``Christian worldview'' that drives them. The phrase means
that all aspects of the universe owe their existence to a Christian
God.
They said they pulled their children from private religious schools
because teachers were stressing academics rather than building a
religious foundation.
``We really want our kids to rule and reign for Christ. We couldn't
do that on a haphazard basis,'' said Steve Beck. ``The whole idea is
we're training battle-hardened soldiers for Christ. The private
Christian school wasn't going to do that.''
The Becks wanted a sense of togetherness in their church, so they
joined the small, rural Confederation of Reformed Evangelicals that
was active in the community.
``I saw it as a very good way to disciple men,'' Steve Beck said.
The influence has been profound. The family moved to Idaho in August
so that Steve can study at a seminary run by Douglas Wilson, an
outspoken critic of big government and especially public education.
Wilson co-authored a book that argues that Civil War abolitionists
ignored the teachings of the Bible, which recognizes slavery.
Beck said Wilson's ``main goal is to get people to think.'' The Bible
urges good relationships between slaves and masters, and that's what
prevailed in the prewar South, Beck said.
The South was fighting for states' rights, not for slavery, Beck
said. Because the South lost, we now have the ``leviathan''
government intruding on all aspects of our lives.
Public schools are an example, he said. Before public education was
created in the 1800s, anyone who wanted an education could find one
for free, and the literacy rate was much higher than it is today, he
said.
Beck said that people coming out of Wilson's school are ``changing
the culture from the inside out,'' and that Christians need to
infiltrate the world.
``We're in the New Covenant. We're not using swords. We're using the
Spirit,'' Beck said.
In his book, A Father's Stew, Beck writes that Christians must reject
the notions that women need work to be fulfilled, parents should
pursue careers by dumping their children in day-care centers
(disparagingly referred to as ``concentration camps'') and education
can be provided only by so-called experts.
The Becks want their children to go to college, but they have
different aspirations for the three, depending on the gender.
Steve Beck would like his son to become an engineer and wants the
girls to get liberal arts degrees so they are able to ``have sons and
daughters and teach them to think.''
``I'm not keen on a daughter becoming a doctor and working 90 hours a
week,'' he said.
Jorge Gomez, president of the North Texas Home Educators Network in
the Dallas-Fort Worth area, has a worldview similar to the Becks'.
Gomez, who came to the United States from Mexico when he was 7,
prefers the Anglicized pronunciation ``George'' for Jorge. He
discourages discussion of his Hispanic heritage and of diversity
among home schoolers because ``we are all one. Home schooling is the
great equalizer.''
Gomez, a businessman, and his wife, have three children and are
evangelical Christians. He chooses to ``home-church'' by not
participating in an organized congregation.
He's troubled by pop culture and what children learn in organized
schools.
``We have the freedom to choose. In a school, you don't know what
books they're being shown. There are more quotes from Marilyn Monroe
than from FDR or about World War II. They don't need pop culture or
revisionist history,'' Gomez said.
Image problem
The strong religious views that the Becks, Gomez and others hold can
stir anti-home schooling feelings in the larger community. In
interviews and focus groups, many non-home schoolers pointed to a
``holier than thou'' attitude that they said permeates many families
in the movement.
A public-school parent said in a Beacon Journal focus group that a
relative is a fundamentalist Christian who home-schools.
``There is just this arrogance. We all laugh and say, `What is she
going to do when she gets to heaven and we are standing there
greeting her?' She is going to have a fit when she gets up there, and
there we are,'' the parent said.
Some home schoolers are aware of this image problem.
``Sometimes I think, coming from a home-schooled mentality, we have
to be very careful that we are not teaching our children that home
schoolers are better than other people,'' a Christian mother said.
Unschoolers and inclusives in the movement unite with their Christian
counterparts on most home-school issues, but they often resent
efforts to impose biblical, faith-based ideas about such topics as
abortion, same-sex marriage and stem-cell research on them and the
rest of society.
In a focus group, an unschooler mother said Christian home schoolers
are rigid in their beliefs -- ``Everybody else is wrong.''
Although religious home schoolers garner the most attention, the
movement is vast and diverse.
*********More diverse
Pam Sorooshian, an econometrician from Long Beach, Calif., describes
herself as a non-Christian, politically independent person in a
multicultural marriage. She believes home schoolers are unfairly
targeted for criticism because they are so closely identified with
the religious right.
Sorooshian is co-founder of the National Home Educators Network, a
group known as ``inclusives'' because members represent a network of
various religions, races, ethnicities and family structures. The
group includes bisexuals, pagans, atheists, Mormons, Catholics,
Baptists, Jews, Muslims, blacks, Latinos, Asians and Middle Eastern
families, she said.
``We have mixed families, gay couples with children, single mothers,
working mothers. We have stay-at-home dads. We have a far better
cross section of the community than the elementary school that we
pulled my 9-year-old out of, which was all-white, had no other races
of any kind, and every kid there came from an upper-middle-class
neighborhood surrounding the school,'' Sorooshian said in a
presentation at the annual American Educational Research Association
meeting in San Diego this year.
``Inclusive'' is a term referring to a group open to anyone,
including Christians, Sorooshian told the Beacon Journal.
``There is a huge difference between the typical Christian home
schooler and the typical inclusive home schoolers,'' Sorooshian said.
``Inclusives have an underlying desire to have their kids out in the
world and more exposed to the world. Christian home schoolers are
just trying to protect their children.''
She said the idea that inclusive children from home-schooling
families are growing up intolerant and uncivil is ludicrous.
She said she started home schooling because her children's public
school was not diverse enough.
Now, her children are exposed to a wide variety of people of
different backgrounds, ages, religions and cultures.
``In our case, we wanted far more real relationships than what our
kids were getting in school,'' Sorooshian said.
Backer wants oversight
Rob Reich, a Stanford University professor who maintains that he
supports home schooling, believes that many parents wield too much
control over their children and don't want them exposed to contrary
ideas.
He contends that children need to learn to participate in a diverse
democracy.
``In no other setting are parents as able to direct in all aspects
the education of their children, for in home schools they are
responsible not only for determining what their children shall learn,
but when, how and with whom they shall learn,'' Reich said in a
published essay, Testing the Boundaries of Parental Authority Over
Education: The Case of Homeschooling.
Many home-schooling parents see Reich as an opponent because he wants
government to play a larger oversight role.
He said that while home-schooling parents insist they must have the
freedom to raise their children, they often are intolerant of anyone
with different views.
``Children can grow up to become ethically servile to their parents,
which is incompatible with them being free persons,'' Reich saidin a
Beacon Journal interview.
In his speeches and writings, Reich talks about two concepts of
society: one in which citizens vote their own interests and the
majority rules; and one in which citizens are involved, talk to each
other and exchange ideas in the public forum before taking a majority
vote.
He believes that home-schooling parents are preventing their children
from being part of the public forum, and that the children are being
raised in isolation. If they're not part of that forum, they may not
know that other views on life exist.
``I think that is a potentially disabling aspect of home schooling,''
Reich told the Beacon Journal.
The state cannot mandate that children from diverse backgrounds come
together, but Reich said government can and should insist upon
curricula that expose children to different religions, cultures and
points of view.
``Not all home schoolers are going to like this, but this will be
part of the aim of regulation -- to ensure that even within a
home-school environment, children are introduced to and exposed to
the world of diversity in a liberal democracy,'' Reich said at the
same discussion of education research that Sorooshian attended.
Sorooshian, the inclusive, countered that home schoolers are
perplexed when they hear that kind of idea.
``Do we know if we can teach good citizenship?'' she asked. ``Do we
know anything about how to teach it? How can they regulate us to make
sure we taught our children good citizenship? Require them to go to
Girl Scouts?''
Extracurriculars
Reich believes public schools should be required to let home-schooled
children play on sports teams and in bands, and sign up for other
extracurricular activities.
``It's the wrong stance to take from a public point of view to forbid
home-school children from participating in public school
activities,'' Reich told the Beacon Journal. ``It ought to be done
precisely because it gives the home-school kids an opportunity to
interact with more people than they would otherwise in a way that
might have civic benefits.''
As the movement has grown, more home-schooled children are having
contact with public schools.
The 2001 U.S. Department of Education study, released in July of this
year, found that about 20 percent of the estimated 1.1 million
home-schooled students were enrolled part time in public schools.
Many states give local school officials the authority to accept or
reject home-school students on a part-time basis. In return, some
districts that accept part-timers receive funding based on how many
classes a home-schooling student takes.
Hugh Caumartin, superintendent of Bowling Green schools in northwest
Ohio, said he has seen an increase in home schoolers interacting with
his district.
``We do have home-schooled students taking classes in our schools.
Typically, they take music, art, science with labs, sports,''
Caumartin said.
These interactions have not come without friction. Home schoolers are
accused of cherry-picking public services.
Home schoolers counter that they pay taxes and should be allowed to
take classes.
Finances, fairness
Most states defer to local school districts, giving superintendents
and boards the authority to devise policies on accepting home
schoolers for classes or extracurricular activities.
Some public school officials refuse to provide services to
home-schooled students, citing finances and fairness as reasons.
Many school officials believe extracurricular activities are rewards
or bonuses used as incentives for academic achievement. Public school
students must meet certain academic standards -- such as passing
tests or achieving minimum grade-point averages -- before being
allowed to play on a sports team or take part in extracurricular
activities. Home-schooled students are not held to the same standards.
In Easton, Pa., home schoolers and the school board clashed over
allowing children to play football. In Texas, legislation has been
introduced to give home schoolers access to sports and debate teams.
In West Virginia, a judge ruled a family could place their son on a
wrestling team. In Dayton, Christian schools have accepted home
schoolers into their classes and included them in extracurricular
activities.
Although home schoolers and their attorneys have been consistently
victorious in legal battles, this is one area where courts have
decided in favor of public schools more often than not.
``I wish that the schools would be more accepting of kids joining in
sports and the extracurricular activities like band,'' an unschooler
mom in a Beacon Journal focus group said. ``I think the one thing we
would want to go to high school for is the extracurricular
activities.''
She offered a solution that would not be popular with most public
school parents.
``I would ultimately like to see the extracurricular stuff taken
completely out of the schools and made free-standing, like Barberton
Little League is not a school-related organization. It's a separate
thing, and the kids go play baseball together,'' she said.
Coming Wednesday: Troubling situations in home schooling.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
from the article posted
** Rob Reich, a Stanford University professor who maintains that he
supports home schooling, believes that many parents wield too much
control over their children and don't want them exposed to contrary
ideas.
He contends that children need to learn to participate in a diverse
democracy.**
I've never seen a public school classroom that was a democracy. Being
institutionalized isn't a particularly good preparation for life in a
free society.
** ``Children can grow up to become ethically servile to their parents,
which is incompatible with them being free persons,'' Reich saidin a
Beacon Journal interview.**
Children can also become ethically servile to their peers or to consumer
culture. Sheesh.
** Reich believes public schools should be required to let home-schooled
children play on sports teams and in bands, and sign up for other
extracurricular activities.**
OK, fine.
Betsy
** Rob Reich, a Stanford University professor who maintains that he
supports home schooling, believes that many parents wield too much
control over their children and don't want them exposed to contrary
ideas.
He contends that children need to learn to participate in a diverse
democracy.**
I've never seen a public school classroom that was a democracy. Being
institutionalized isn't a particularly good preparation for life in a
free society.
** ``Children can grow up to become ethically servile to their parents,
which is incompatible with them being free persons,'' Reich saidin a
Beacon Journal interview.**
Children can also become ethically servile to their peers or to consumer
culture. Sheesh.
** Reich believes public schools should be required to let home-schooled
children play on sports teams and in bands, and sign up for other
extracurricular activities.**
OK, fine.
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/16/2004 11:17:48 AM Mountain Standard Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
Rob Reich, a Stanford University professor who maintains that he
supports home schooling, believes that many parents wield too much
control over their children and don't want them exposed to contrary
ideas.
---------------------
I agree with him.
-=-Children can grow up to become ethically servile to their parents,
which is incompatible with them being free persons,'' Reich saidin a
Beacon Journal interview-=-
But he's not talking about us. He's talking about the fundamentalist
Christian Homeschoolers who won't even let their kids play with other Christians
unless they are thoroughly screened by the parents as to belief and practice.
Minutia, dogmatically speaking.
There are many homeschoolers (maybe the majority) who have their children out
of school because they don't want them exposed to ideas about "accepting
other people" or about evolution, or about other religions as valid. They want to
indoctrinate their children into a false-front vision of the world with a
reconstructed fantasy history and an allegedly scientific science, and keep them
from looking behind that facade.
Anyone here who doubts that should order some back issues of Home School
Digest or The Old Schoolhouse. They WANT their children separate, they WANT them
to think that everything outside their protected little world is the imminent
destruction by and of Satan and that the children's only salvation is
isolation.
Meanwhile, there are unschoolers (and other homeschoolers) who want their
children "exposed" to much MORE than schools do, who want their children to know
about other cultures, to be accepting of other lifestyles. We who live in
that expansive nest shouldn't deny (or live unawares of) the very real
isolationist, controlling people who are too often the voice of homeschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ecsamhill@... writes:
Rob Reich, a Stanford University professor who maintains that he
supports home schooling, believes that many parents wield too much
control over their children and don't want them exposed to contrary
ideas.
---------------------
I agree with him.
-=-Children can grow up to become ethically servile to their parents,
which is incompatible with them being free persons,'' Reich saidin a
Beacon Journal interview-=-
But he's not talking about us. He's talking about the fundamentalist
Christian Homeschoolers who won't even let their kids play with other Christians
unless they are thoroughly screened by the parents as to belief and practice.
Minutia, dogmatically speaking.
There are many homeschoolers (maybe the majority) who have their children out
of school because they don't want them exposed to ideas about "accepting
other people" or about evolution, or about other religions as valid. They want to
indoctrinate their children into a false-front vision of the world with a
reconstructed fantasy history and an allegedly scientific science, and keep them
from looking behind that facade.
Anyone here who doubts that should order some back issues of Home School
Digest or The Old Schoolhouse. They WANT their children separate, they WANT them
to think that everything outside their protected little world is the imminent
destruction by and of Satan and that the children's only salvation is
isolation.
Meanwhile, there are unschoolers (and other homeschoolers) who want their
children "exposed" to much MORE than schools do, who want their children to know
about other cultures, to be accepting of other lifestyles. We who live in
that expansive nest shouldn't deny (or live unawares of) the very real
isolationist, controlling people who are too often the voice of homeschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather Woodward
I read an academic paper by this fellow back when I was researching homeschooling. I found it in the University library database from some journal. What makes me angry is that he has a PhD in Social Science, and a lot of his conclusions show a lack of true understanding of the nature of homeschooling. Because he is this PhD sociologist people use him as an "expert" - when he has no personal knowledge of homeschooling!
In this paper he writes ( I am badly paraphrasing) that the parent isn't the only person who has an interest in the education of the child. The parent. The child - hence the free person, separation from parents at an early age, and the state does. This is the important part. The state is interested in the education of its citizens so they can all get nice paying jobs and stay off welfare, etc.... Ok, but then why do you decide that the state's interest is the more important of the three. This is what public school does. The child doesn't have personal freedom, is not taking part in a diverse democracy. Overall, his ideas sound very socialist to me.
How is it that he feels a public school will allow a child to be exposed to contrary ideas - or participate in a diverse democracy?
I'll bet any homeschooling parent could explain how homeschooling provides both of these things! We don't live under a rock! There are so many resources out there in society, to provide a wealth of experiences. To me sitting in a classroom for hours on end, limits these experiences.
I am not far from a PhD in Finance. That doesn't mean I know everything - or that if I write an academic paper that I am now an expert. I know how to write a mean, convincing paper. Too much emphasis is placed on the degree as a sign of wisdom. If he had actually homeschooled and came to these conclusions, then maybe I could understand his viewpoint . Has he read anything such as Tamara Orr's book, or David Albert, or Sandra Dodd's website? What is he possibly researching to come to these conclusions? Maybe other news articles on homeschooling??
Anyway - homeschooling can create a free thinking group of constituents. Does the country really want this? How can anyone truly look at the current academic system and think it is working just great?
In this paper he writes ( I am badly paraphrasing) that the parent isn't the only person who has an interest in the education of the child. The parent. The child - hence the free person, separation from parents at an early age, and the state does. This is the important part. The state is interested in the education of its citizens so they can all get nice paying jobs and stay off welfare, etc.... Ok, but then why do you decide that the state's interest is the more important of the three. This is what public school does. The child doesn't have personal freedom, is not taking part in a diverse democracy. Overall, his ideas sound very socialist to me.
How is it that he feels a public school will allow a child to be exposed to contrary ideas - or participate in a diverse democracy?
I'll bet any homeschooling parent could explain how homeschooling provides both of these things! We don't live under a rock! There are so many resources out there in society, to provide a wealth of experiences. To me sitting in a classroom for hours on end, limits these experiences.
I am not far from a PhD in Finance. That doesn't mean I know everything - or that if I write an academic paper that I am now an expert. I know how to write a mean, convincing paper. Too much emphasis is placed on the degree as a sign of wisdom. If he had actually homeschooled and came to these conclusions, then maybe I could understand his viewpoint . Has he read anything such as Tamara Orr's book, or David Albert, or Sandra Dodd's website? What is he possibly researching to come to these conclusions? Maybe other news articles on homeschooling??
Anyway - homeschooling can create a free thinking group of constituents. Does the country really want this? How can anyone truly look at the current academic system and think it is working just great?
----- Original Message -----
From: Elizabeth Hill
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Rob Reich / from An Akron Beacon Journal Special
from the article posted
** Rob Reich, a Stanford University professor who maintains that he
supports home schooling, believes that many parents wield too much
control over their children and don't want them exposed to contrary
ideas.
He contends that children need to learn to participate in a diverse
democracy.**
I've never seen a public school classroom that was a democracy. Being
institutionalized isn't a particularly good preparation for life in a
free society.
** ``Children can grow up to become ethically servile to their parents,
which is incompatible with them being free persons,'' Reich saidin a
Beacon Journal interview.**
Children can also become ethically servile to their peers or to consumer
culture. Sheesh.
** Reich believes public schools should be required to let home-schooled
children play on sports teams and in bands, and sign up for other
extracurricular activities.**
OK, fine.
Betsy
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Roberts
I remember reading something he wrote at some point
during my high school years. I didn't agree with him
then, and I'm not impressed now either!
Elizabeth
--- Heather Woodward <bacwoodz@...> wrote:
Elizabeth
Http://rainbowacademy.blogspot.com
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com
during my high school years. I didn't agree with him
then, and I'm not impressed now either!
Elizabeth
--- Heather Woodward <bacwoodz@...> wrote:
> I read an academic paper by this fellow back when I------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> was researching homeschooling. I found it in the
> University library database from some journal. What
> makes me angry is that he has a PhD in Social
> Science, and a lot of his conclusions show a lack of
> true understanding of the nature of homeschooling.
> Because he is this PhD sociologist people use him as
> an "expert" - when he has no personal knowledge of
> homeschooling!
>
> In this paper he writes ( I am badly paraphrasing)
> that the parent isn't the only person who has an
> interest in the education of the child. The parent.
> The child - hence the free person, separation from
> parents at an early age, and the state does. This is
> the important part. The state is interested in the
> education of its citizens so they can all get nice
> paying jobs and stay off welfare, etc.... Ok, but
> then why do you decide that the state's interest is
> the more important of the three. This is what public
> school does. The child doesn't have personal
> freedom, is not taking part in a diverse democracy.
> Overall, his ideas sound very socialist to me.
>
> How is it that he feels a public school will allow a
> child to be exposed to contrary ideas - or
> participate in a diverse democracy?
>
> I'll bet any homeschooling parent could explain how
> homeschooling provides both of these things! We
> don't live under a rock! There are so many resources
> out there in society, to provide a wealth of
> experiences. To me sitting in a classroom for hours
> on end, limits these experiences.
>
> I am not far from a PhD in Finance. That doesn't
> mean I know everything - or that if I write an
> academic paper that I am now an expert. I know how
> to write a mean, convincing paper. Too much emphasis
> is placed on the degree as a sign of wisdom. If he
> had actually homeschooled and came to these
> conclusions, then maybe I could understand his
> viewpoint . Has he read anything such as Tamara
> Orr's book, or David Albert, or Sandra Dodd's
> website? What is he possibly researching to come to
> these conclusions? Maybe other news articles on
> homeschooling??
>
> Anyway - homeschooling can create a free thinking
> group of constituents. Does the country really want
> this? How can anyone truly look at the current
> academic system and think it is working just great?
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Elizabeth Hill
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 1:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Rob Reich /
> from An Akron Beacon Journal Special
>
>
> from the article posted
>
> ** Rob Reich, a Stanford University professor who
> maintains that he
> supports home schooling, believes that many
> parents wield too much
> control over their children and don't want them
> exposed to contrary
> ideas.
>
> He contends that children need to learn to
> participate in a diverse
> democracy.**
>
> I've never seen a public school classroom that was
> a democracy. Being
> institutionalized isn't a particularly good
> preparation for life in a
> free society.
>
> ** ``Children can grow up to become ethically
> servile to their parents,
> which is incompatible with them being free
> persons,'' Reich saidin a
> Beacon Journal interview.**
>
> Children can also become ethically servile to
> their peers or to consumer
> culture. Sheesh.
>
> ** Reich believes public schools should be
> required to let home-schooled
> children play on sports teams and in bands, and
> sign up for other
> extracurricular activities.**
>
> OK, fine.
>
>
> Betsy
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files
> area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links=====
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an
> email to:
>
> [email protected]
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
Elizabeth
Http://rainbowacademy.blogspot.com
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/16/2004 12:50:15 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
There are many homeschoolers (maybe the majority) who have their children
out
of school because they don't want them exposed to ideas about "accepting
other people" or about evolution, or about other religions as valid. They
want to
indoctrinate their children into a false-front vision of the world with a
reconstructed fantasy history and an allegedly scientific science, and keep
them
from looking behind that facade.
~~~
I don't think it's the majority. And I live where it's more likely to be a
majority.
I think the majority of those who harbor those fears about their children
would crumble under intense scrutiny and challenge of their belief.
They're just following along, blending into the community.
That's my take, anyway.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
There are many homeschoolers (maybe the majority) who have their children
out
of school because they don't want them exposed to ideas about "accepting
other people" or about evolution, or about other religions as valid. They
want to
indoctrinate their children into a false-front vision of the world with a
reconstructed fantasy history and an allegedly scientific science, and keep
them
from looking behind that facade.
~~~
I don't think it's the majority. And I live where it's more likely to be a
majority.
I think the majority of those who harbor those fears about their children
would crumble under intense scrutiny and challenge of their belief.
They're just following along, blending into the community.
That's my take, anyway.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/17/2004 3:57:41 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
I don't think it's the majority. And I live where it's more likely to be a
majority.
I think the majority of those who harbor those fears about their children
would crumble under intense scrutiny and challenge of their belief. <<<<<
Maybe where I live makes up for where you live. Here there are more than
enough homeschoolers keeping their children out of school so they can protect
them from the evils of the world, the evils of their community, the thought of
evolution, and my children, like they are some sort of disease.
And from what I have seen in my state they do not crumble at all. On a
local homeschooling list the discussion of "faith and the Bible" came up. And
actually has been going on and on for weeks now. There are those that believe
every word in the Bible as fact. There are those saying that Bible verses
are up for interpretation etc, but they are few and are far out weighed by the
Fundamentalist Christian views.
Those people believe that it is their job to make "us" understand that the
Bible is fact and saying that we do not believe in the same thing is not good
enough. Because it is "truth", how can anyone not believe in the truth or
facts. Their statements include things like "just because you don't believe in
it does not make it any less the truth, you can deny the truth all you want
but it is still there and still the truth." They see their job is to save
our souls, no matter how much we do not want to be saved. I am speaking like I
am not a Christian, but I am, I am just not seen as a Christian by the
Fundamentalists because I do not take the Bible as fact. So they feel I need
saving as well.
And all this extends to our children. They do not want their children
playing with our children, we are not Christian enough. I hear them talking about
what not to see if you do go to Disney. What exhibits not to look at. What
museums not to let your children visit because they talk about the evolution
of the world and contain different fossils etc.
They do not crumble under criticism or scrutiny. It is their job to be
strong.
OK enough from me this morning. LOL.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
I don't think it's the majority. And I live where it's more likely to be a
majority.
I think the majority of those who harbor those fears about their children
would crumble under intense scrutiny and challenge of their belief. <<<<<
Maybe where I live makes up for where you live. Here there are more than
enough homeschoolers keeping their children out of school so they can protect
them from the evils of the world, the evils of their community, the thought of
evolution, and my children, like they are some sort of disease.
And from what I have seen in my state they do not crumble at all. On a
local homeschooling list the discussion of "faith and the Bible" came up. And
actually has been going on and on for weeks now. There are those that believe
every word in the Bible as fact. There are those saying that Bible verses
are up for interpretation etc, but they are few and are far out weighed by the
Fundamentalist Christian views.
Those people believe that it is their job to make "us" understand that the
Bible is fact and saying that we do not believe in the same thing is not good
enough. Because it is "truth", how can anyone not believe in the truth or
facts. Their statements include things like "just because you don't believe in
it does not make it any less the truth, you can deny the truth all you want
but it is still there and still the truth." They see their job is to save
our souls, no matter how much we do not want to be saved. I am speaking like I
am not a Christian, but I am, I am just not seen as a Christian by the
Fundamentalists because I do not take the Bible as fact. So they feel I need
saving as well.
And all this extends to our children. They do not want their children
playing with our children, we are not Christian enough. I hear them talking about
what not to see if you do go to Disney. What exhibits not to look at. What
museums not to let your children visit because they talk about the evolution
of the world and contain different fossils etc.
They do not crumble under criticism or scrutiny. It is their job to be
strong.
OK enough from me this morning. LOL.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heidi Here
Pam R U in Florida? I feel the same way about Most "christians" not wanting to be around me and my children either...we do the no no s, reading harry potter, halloween...ect. we are in very different then most homeschoolers I meet and sometimes I feel all alone... hope you are in Fl,
Heidi
Heidi
----- Original Message -----
From: Genant2@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 7:54 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Re: Rob Reich / from An Akron Beacon Journal Special
In a message dated 11/17/2004 3:57:41 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
I don't think it's the majority. And I live where it's more likely to be a
majority.
I think the majority of those who harbor those fears about their children
would crumble under intense scrutiny and challenge of their belief. <<<<<
Maybe where I live makes up for where you live. Here there are more than
enough homeschoolers keeping their children out of school so they can protect
them from the evils of the world, the evils of their community, the thought of
evolution, and my children, like they are some sort of disease.
And from what I have seen in my state they do not crumble at all. On a
local homeschooling list the discussion of "faith and the Bible" came up. And
actually has been going on and on for weeks now. There are those that believe
every word in the Bible as fact. There are those saying that Bible verses
are up for interpretation etc, but they are few and are far out weighed by the
Fundamentalist Christian views.
Those people believe that it is their job to make "us" understand that the
Bible is fact and saying that we do not believe in the same thing is not good
enough. Because it is "truth", how can anyone not believe in the truth or
facts. Their statements include things like "just because you don't believe in
it does not make it any less the truth, you can deny the truth all you want
but it is still there and still the truth." They see their job is to save
our souls, no matter how much we do not want to be saved. I am speaking like I
am not a Christian, but I am, I am just not seen as a Christian by the
Fundamentalists because I do not take the Bible as fact. So they feel I need
saving as well.
And all this extends to our children. They do not want their children
playing with our children, we are not Christian enough. I hear them talking about
what not to see if you do go to Disney. What exhibits not to look at. What
museums not to let your children visit because they talk about the evolution
of the world and contain different fossils etc.
They do not crumble under criticism or scrutiny. It is their job to be
strong.
OK enough from me this morning. LOL.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/17/04 5:56:14 AM, Genant2@... writes:
<< I hear them talking about
what not to see if you do go to Disney. What exhibits not to look at. What
museums not to let your children visit because they talk about the evolution
of the world and contain different fossils etc. >>
I went to the Field Museum in Chicago with a homeschool mom and her two kids.
As we were starting off on a little guided tour bit (which we ditched out of
partway through), the docent said "Every homeschooler we get here is *very
smart*" or some such kind of complimentary but mostly condescending thing. I
leaned over to the mom and said, "Because Christian homeschoolers won't come
here." It features prehistory and evolution pretty prominently. But maybe the
Christian homeschooling groups just avoid the tour so the mom in charge can
explain that dinosaur bones were created by God to test the faith of his people.
Would they believe their eyes and their theories over the word of God?
Correct answer: "no" If the Bible says one thing and overwhelming physical
evidence says another, go with the Bible.
Is that really a way to teach kids to learn by experience? No. Experience is
very bad. Bible very good.
Am I anti-Christian? I'm anti-ignorance, and when they come together I'm
against the ignorance. Hate the sin of ignorance, give the sinner the benefit of
the doubt.
Sandra
<< I hear them talking about
what not to see if you do go to Disney. What exhibits not to look at. What
museums not to let your children visit because they talk about the evolution
of the world and contain different fossils etc. >>
I went to the Field Museum in Chicago with a homeschool mom and her two kids.
As we were starting off on a little guided tour bit (which we ditched out of
partway through), the docent said "Every homeschooler we get here is *very
smart*" or some such kind of complimentary but mostly condescending thing. I
leaned over to the mom and said, "Because Christian homeschoolers won't come
here." It features prehistory and evolution pretty prominently. But maybe the
Christian homeschooling groups just avoid the tour so the mom in charge can
explain that dinosaur bones were created by God to test the faith of his people.
Would they believe their eyes and their theories over the word of God?
Correct answer: "no" If the Bible says one thing and overwhelming physical
evidence says another, go with the Bible.
Is that really a way to teach kids to learn by experience? No. Experience is
very bad. Bible very good.
Am I anti-Christian? I'm anti-ignorance, and when they come together I'm
against the ignorance. Hate the sin of ignorance, give the sinner the benefit of
the doubt.
Sandra
pam sorooshian
On Nov 16, 2004, at 10:34 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
and registration of all homeschoolers. None of those three things would
make a whit of difference to the uber-Christian homeschoolers, but
they'd sure mess with unschoolers.
AND - interestingly, even though WE know it is the uber-Christians who
fit his description of raising "ethically servile" people, it is the
unschoolers who don't use curriculum and don't test, which is what he
wants to require.
He wants to impose his regulations even on those of us who are raising
kids who are far from servile. And, his regulations won't do anything
to make uber-Christian parents expose their children to other belief
systems.
He's not ignorant of unschooling or that there are thousands of
inclusive homeschoolers out there - we've had MANY conversations and he
frequents various inclusive homeschooling forums - he just doesn't care
if he makes unschooling impossible and he's willing to use us to get at
the Christian Right homeschoolers because he doesn't approve of the way
they raise their kids. Well, gee, neither do I. But I'm not willing to
sacrifice our lifestyle under the pretense that it would have any
impact on theirs at all. And that's what he's wanting.
-pam
> -=-Children can grow up to become ethically servile to their parents,Right. But his solution is to require curriculum, standardized testing,
> which is incompatible with them being free persons,'' Reich saidin a
> Beacon Journal interview-=-
>
> But he's not talking about us. He's talking about the fundamentalist
> Christian Homeschoolers who won't even let their kids play with other
> Christians
> unless they are thoroughly screened by the parents as to belief and
> practice.
> Minutia, dogmatically speaking.
and registration of all homeschoolers. None of those three things would
make a whit of difference to the uber-Christian homeschoolers, but
they'd sure mess with unschoolers.
AND - interestingly, even though WE know it is the uber-Christians who
fit his description of raising "ethically servile" people, it is the
unschoolers who don't use curriculum and don't test, which is what he
wants to require.
He wants to impose his regulations even on those of us who are raising
kids who are far from servile. And, his regulations won't do anything
to make uber-Christian parents expose their children to other belief
systems.
He's not ignorant of unschooling or that there are thousands of
inclusive homeschoolers out there - we've had MANY conversations and he
frequents various inclusive homeschooling forums - he just doesn't care
if he makes unschooling impossible and he's willing to use us to get at
the Christian Right homeschoolers because he doesn't approve of the way
they raise their kids. Well, gee, neither do I. But I'm not willing to
sacrifice our lifestyle under the pretense that it would have any
impact on theirs at all. And that's what he's wanting.
-pam
pam sorooshian
On Nov 16, 2004, at 1:00 PM, Heather Woodward wrote:
to be tolerant of diverse views and able to engage in deep societal
discussion so that they can be good citizens in a democracy that
requires them to think about issues, for themselves.
Good stuff. Would be nice if SCHOOLS were doing it.
Rob makes a HUGE point that he isn't comparing homeschooling to schools
- that homeschools may very well be doing a better job of this than
schools are - but that his interest is in homeschooling, not in school
reform. He absolutely refuses to engage in a conversation in which it
is pointed out that kids learn more racial and ethnic intolerance IN
school than anywhere else.
-pam
> In this paper he writes ( I am badly paraphrasing) that the parentNo - the state's interest, according to him, is that the kids grow up
> isn't the only person who has an interest in the education of the
> child. The parent. The child - hence the free person, separation from
> parents at an early age, and the state does. This is the important
> part. The state is interested in the education of its citizens so they
> can all get nice paying jobs and stay off welfare, etc....
to be tolerant of diverse views and able to engage in deep societal
discussion so that they can be good citizens in a democracy that
requires them to think about issues, for themselves.
Good stuff. Would be nice if SCHOOLS were doing it.
Rob makes a HUGE point that he isn't comparing homeschooling to schools
- that homeschools may very well be doing a better job of this than
schools are - but that his interest is in homeschooling, not in school
reform. He absolutely refuses to engage in a conversation in which it
is pointed out that kids learn more racial and ethnic intolerance IN
school than anywhere else.
-pam