unschooling documentary
pam sorooshian
I have had a long conversation with a graduate student at UC Berkeley -
he is in the journalism department. To meet one of his requirements, he
is making a 25 minutes documentary film and he is interested in doing
it on unschooling. I found him to be well read on the subject and very
pro-unschooling. He's still a bit vague on exactly what he intends to
include in the film - still open to ideas - but would like to show
unschoolers just "living their lives."
I pointed out that following my family around for a day could be
incredibly boring - how long is it going to be interesting to watch us
all sitting around typing on our computers, reading books, watching tv,
taking naps <g>.
But - this could be great and I'd like to lend him a hand. He wants to
find real unschoolers - not people who are simply relaxed homeschoolers
or eclectic homeschoolers.
If any of you are in California and would like to talk to him about
maybe being one of the families featured in his documentary, please
email me at <pamsoroosh @ mac.com>.
-pam
he is in the journalism department. To meet one of his requirements, he
is making a 25 minutes documentary film and he is interested in doing
it on unschooling. I found him to be well read on the subject and very
pro-unschooling. He's still a bit vague on exactly what he intends to
include in the film - still open to ideas - but would like to show
unschoolers just "living their lives."
I pointed out that following my family around for a day could be
incredibly boring - how long is it going to be interesting to watch us
all sitting around typing on our computers, reading books, watching tv,
taking naps <g>.
But - this could be great and I'd like to lend him a hand. He wants to
find real unschoolers - not people who are simply relaxed homeschoolers
or eclectic homeschoolers.
If any of you are in California and would like to talk to him about
maybe being one of the families featured in his documentary, please
email me at <pamsoroosh @ mac.com>.
-pam
Elizabeth Hill
** I pointed out that following my family around for a day could be
incredibly boring - how long is it going to be interesting to watch us
all sitting around typing on our computers, reading books, watching tv,
taking naps <g>.**
Our "exciting" day yesterday included standing in line to vote, playing
videogames, listening to a book on tape, quilting, and searching for
dad's lost keys. The biggest drama of the day was me convincing my
husband to cook most of dinner so I could finish my project.
Oh, I did point out one of the earliest red states on the map (Oklahoma)
and then somehow we talked about the "four corners" area. Then my son
asked for the big map of the U.S. and jumped on it a little. (Hey, a
visual illustration of kinesthetic learning.) But I don't think anyone
would want to watch us for 10 hours to get the pulse pounding excitement
<g> of those 10 seconds.
It's kind of fun to imagine a montage of unschooling scenes, but mostly
I think learning is not very visual. I guess kids that do art projects
or raise animals would be the most photogenic.
Betsy
incredibly boring - how long is it going to be interesting to watch us
all sitting around typing on our computers, reading books, watching tv,
taking naps <g>.**
Our "exciting" day yesterday included standing in line to vote, playing
videogames, listening to a book on tape, quilting, and searching for
dad's lost keys. The biggest drama of the day was me convincing my
husband to cook most of dinner so I could finish my project.
Oh, I did point out one of the earliest red states on the map (Oklahoma)
and then somehow we talked about the "four corners" area. Then my son
asked for the big map of the U.S. and jumped on it a little. (Hey, a
visual illustration of kinesthetic learning.) But I don't think anyone
would want to watch us for 10 hours to get the pulse pounding excitement
<g> of those 10 seconds.
It's kind of fun to imagine a montage of unschooling scenes, but mostly
I think learning is not very visual. I guess kids that do art projects
or raise animals would be the most photogenic.
Betsy
[email protected]
We too might be boring but there are some days that are pretty exciting. Our
debates about the best power to have in a video game battle given choices
from Poke'mon, Yu-Gi-Oh, Teen Titans and King Arthur's court - including Merlin.
This is one of the debates least likely to get the general public up in
arms. When you add in that we also discussed whether we would want to include the
Greek Gods and then the Christian God too and whether or not Jesus really
had what we called a SuperPower or if that was his Dad's power really, well
then things got interesting but not really something I would expose most of the
general public to, LOL!
Field trips are fun with lots visual interaction and vocal discussion
(again, sometimes the discussions are not fit for others though since I put no
limits on ideas or verbal choices unless it is hurtful to someone else or
profanity). My son and daughter can be pretty outspoken, which I really like, and
are also polite. But the point is that our family debates and discussions would
really have to be edited for political correctedness to be on video.
We do a lot of learning when we shop, go swimming, take walks, drive to
Grandma's. I am not sure how much of watching a family run around and then sit
quietly at the table would interest the public though. A lot of my son's
learning - he is ADHAD and Autistic which was more challenging at public school -
is done with computer and video games. All text has to be read aloud and the
words he learns - and learns the meanings of - are pretty advanced since he is
way past the "kiddie games".
Okay, that is my 2 cents worth! Have wonderful day all!
Heather - Wisconsin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
debates about the best power to have in a video game battle given choices
from Poke'mon, Yu-Gi-Oh, Teen Titans and King Arthur's court - including Merlin.
This is one of the debates least likely to get the general public up in
arms. When you add in that we also discussed whether we would want to include the
Greek Gods and then the Christian God too and whether or not Jesus really
had what we called a SuperPower or if that was his Dad's power really, well
then things got interesting but not really something I would expose most of the
general public to, LOL!
Field trips are fun with lots visual interaction and vocal discussion
(again, sometimes the discussions are not fit for others though since I put no
limits on ideas or verbal choices unless it is hurtful to someone else or
profanity). My son and daughter can be pretty outspoken, which I really like, and
are also polite. But the point is that our family debates and discussions would
really have to be edited for political correctedness to be on video.
We do a lot of learning when we shop, go swimming, take walks, drive to
Grandma's. I am not sure how much of watching a family run around and then sit
quietly at the table would interest the public though. A lot of my son's
learning - he is ADHAD and Autistic which was more challenging at public school -
is done with computer and video games. All text has to be read aloud and the
words he learns - and learns the meanings of - are pretty advanced since he is
way past the "kiddie games".
Okay, that is my 2 cents worth! Have wonderful day all!
Heather - Wisconsin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/3/2004 2:06:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
have had a long conversation with a graduate student at UC Berkeley -
he is in the journalism department. To meet one of his requirements, he
is making a 25 minutes documentary film and he is interested in doing
it on unschooling.
I'd be pretty boring as well, but i think it would be awsome if I could see
the finished product of the moovie, Is there any way I could get a copy of the
film once its done?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
have had a long conversation with a graduate student at UC Berkeley -
he is in the journalism department. To meet one of his requirements, he
is making a 25 minutes documentary film and he is interested in doing
it on unschooling.
I'd be pretty boring as well, but i think it would be awsome if I could see
the finished product of the moovie, Is there any way I could get a copy of the
film once its done?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Holly Furgason
Whenever I do interviews they always want to photograph or film my
kids "unschooling". It's the nature of the media. The good
reporters will spend days with us and find something spontaneous but
I usually just invite them along on an outing or stage something in
the house that we'd be doing anyway and then I explain the real
unschooling going on is my kids meeting interesting people, learning
about journalism, how to conduct an interview, the media and
photography. They never get it.
Holly
2 COOL 4 SCHOOL
Gifts for the unschoolers on your list!
http://www.cafepress.com/2cool4school
--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Hill
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
kids "unschooling". It's the nature of the media. The good
reporters will spend days with us and find something spontaneous but
I usually just invite them along on an outing or stage something in
the house that we'd be doing anyway and then I explain the real
unschooling going on is my kids meeting interesting people, learning
about journalism, how to conduct an interview, the media and
photography. They never get it.
Holly
2 COOL 4 SCHOOL
Gifts for the unschoolers on your list!
http://www.cafepress.com/2cool4school
--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Hill
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
> It's kind of fun to imagine a montage of unschooling scenes, butmostly
> I think learning is not very visual. I guess kids that do artprojects
> or raise animals would be the most photogenic.
>
> Betsy
Nichole Fausey-Khosraviani
Hey Holly,
I want to invite you to join TXModerators, a list I started for owners/moderators of unschooling groups across the state of Texas. It's a low volume list and there are 10 members so far from differing regions. The purpose is unschooling networking. We'd like all of Texas to be our unschooling community and for unschoolers to know each other by attending events across the state instead of just the Rethinking Education conference once a year.
Everyone brings a different perspective to the group. I'd love for yours to be there. Please join us.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TXModerators/
Oh, by the way, Mara Winders asked me if I know what happened to your Houston group. Did something happen?
Have a fabulous Saturday!
Nichole
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I want to invite you to join TXModerators, a list I started for owners/moderators of unschooling groups across the state of Texas. It's a low volume list and there are 10 members so far from differing regions. The purpose is unschooling networking. We'd like all of Texas to be our unschooling community and for unschoolers to know each other by attending events across the state instead of just the Rethinking Education conference once a year.
Everyone brings a different perspective to the group. I'd love for yours to be there. Please join us.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TXModerators/
Oh, by the way, Mara Winders asked me if I know what happened to your Houston group. Did something happen?
Have a fabulous Saturday!
Nichole
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<<I have had a long conversation with a graduate student at UC Berkeley -
he is in the journalism department. To meet one of his requirements, he
is making a 25 minutes documentary film and he is interested in doing
it on unschooling. I found him to be well read on the subject and very
pro-unschooling. He's still a bit vague on exactly what he intends to
include in the film - still open to ideas - but would like to show
unschoolers just "living their lives."
I pointed out that following my family around for a day could be
incredibly boring - how long is it going to be interesting to watch us
all sitting around typing on our computers, reading books, watching tv,
taking naps <g>.
But - this could be great and I'd like to lend him a hand. He wants to
find real unschoolers - not people who are simply relaxed homeschoolers
or eclectic homeschoolers. >>>>
I want to say first up that I am a cynic, or maybe just paranoid. I hope
that I am wrong. The idea that he is vague about what he wants to show makes
me go "hmmmm." I have worked on plenty of UCLA grad thesis films, and one
thing I do know is the student directors take the work very seriously - this
film is something they intend to use as a calling card for professional
work. They do whatever it takes to make it good, not just for the grade.
"Good" means has the possibility of being sellable and/or getting into the
better festivals.
I just wanted to remind anyone concerned about the concept of looking boring
- documentaries are made in the editing room. Massive amounts are usually
shot and the footage is then cut - for effect, for commentary, for humor,
for impact, for controversy, for irony. Just because it is a documentary
doesn't mean that the fundamentals of filmmaking don't apply, and 25 minutes
is a long time. Rule one: the only thing that holds interest is conflict. If
there is no conflict happening in the story or between the characters, then
there needs to be conflict between the on screen world and the audience's
perceptions and prior understanding, beliefs and expectations. Even the most
innocuous day can be intercut with other days or people to look...different.
I'll give you an entirely hypothetical example. Suppose he has masses of
footage of several families' kids playing video games "all day long". This
is dull on screen. So he interviews someone, some education expert talking
about the "dangers of electronic media". He can probably find plenty of
experts in his own faculty at UCB. He intercuts between "statements" and the
kids playing, and playing. This is starting to look interesting.
OK now for some humor...he shows some footage of one of the mothers talking
about the variety of cool things their family does each day. Then he
intercuts between that "enthusiasm" and the kids still playing, and playing,
and playing video games. OK.
Now his documentary needs some serious social commentary. So he interviews
some health person who talks about the growing trend of obesity and
unfitness amongst youngsters, or RSI, or eye damage, and then intercuts with
the kids, now with the lights on because night has apparently fallen, still
supposedly playing the video games. Maybe just to cap it off, he shows one
kid calling out for some food, and Mom bringing in something, as we often
all do. Well that takes care of a good seven minutes of his documentary, and
he is starting to look like an employable director who can generate conflict
and insert a point of view.
Yep, I'm a cynic AND paranoid - but I was a student making films for grades
once too. Don't show him this email - he may get ideas from it.
The only person I would trust to make a documentary that did not end up
making unschoolers look like oddballs at best would be another unschooler,
like Cameron Lovejoy for example. Hey maybe we *are* oddballs.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.782 / Virus Database: 528 - Release Date: 10/22/2004
he is in the journalism department. To meet one of his requirements, he
is making a 25 minutes documentary film and he is interested in doing
it on unschooling. I found him to be well read on the subject and very
pro-unschooling. He's still a bit vague on exactly what he intends to
include in the film - still open to ideas - but would like to show
unschoolers just "living their lives."
I pointed out that following my family around for a day could be
incredibly boring - how long is it going to be interesting to watch us
all sitting around typing on our computers, reading books, watching tv,
taking naps <g>.
But - this could be great and I'd like to lend him a hand. He wants to
find real unschoolers - not people who are simply relaxed homeschoolers
or eclectic homeschoolers. >>>>
I want to say first up that I am a cynic, or maybe just paranoid. I hope
that I am wrong. The idea that he is vague about what he wants to show makes
me go "hmmmm." I have worked on plenty of UCLA grad thesis films, and one
thing I do know is the student directors take the work very seriously - this
film is something they intend to use as a calling card for professional
work. They do whatever it takes to make it good, not just for the grade.
"Good" means has the possibility of being sellable and/or getting into the
better festivals.
I just wanted to remind anyone concerned about the concept of looking boring
- documentaries are made in the editing room. Massive amounts are usually
shot and the footage is then cut - for effect, for commentary, for humor,
for impact, for controversy, for irony. Just because it is a documentary
doesn't mean that the fundamentals of filmmaking don't apply, and 25 minutes
is a long time. Rule one: the only thing that holds interest is conflict. If
there is no conflict happening in the story or between the characters, then
there needs to be conflict between the on screen world and the audience's
perceptions and prior understanding, beliefs and expectations. Even the most
innocuous day can be intercut with other days or people to look...different.
I'll give you an entirely hypothetical example. Suppose he has masses of
footage of several families' kids playing video games "all day long". This
is dull on screen. So he interviews someone, some education expert talking
about the "dangers of electronic media". He can probably find plenty of
experts in his own faculty at UCB. He intercuts between "statements" and the
kids playing, and playing. This is starting to look interesting.
OK now for some humor...he shows some footage of one of the mothers talking
about the variety of cool things their family does each day. Then he
intercuts between that "enthusiasm" and the kids still playing, and playing,
and playing video games. OK.
Now his documentary needs some serious social commentary. So he interviews
some health person who talks about the growing trend of obesity and
unfitness amongst youngsters, or RSI, or eye damage, and then intercuts with
the kids, now with the lights on because night has apparently fallen, still
supposedly playing the video games. Maybe just to cap it off, he shows one
kid calling out for some food, and Mom bringing in something, as we often
all do. Well that takes care of a good seven minutes of his documentary, and
he is starting to look like an employable director who can generate conflict
and insert a point of view.
Yep, I'm a cynic AND paranoid - but I was a student making films for grades
once too. Don't show him this email - he may get ideas from it.
The only person I would trust to make a documentary that did not end up
making unschoolers look like oddballs at best would be another unschooler,
like Cameron Lovejoy for example. Hey maybe we *are* oddballs.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.782 / Virus Database: 528 - Release Date: 10/22/2004
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/7/2004 3:11:24 PM Mountain Standard Time,
dezigna@... writes:
I want to say first up that I am a cynic, or maybe just paranoid. I hope
that I am wrong. The idea that he is vague about what he wants to show makes
me go "hmmmm."
------------
If he's never met many real unschooling families, he probably doesn't have a
good idea WHAT he wants to show, or what's showable.
I'm in correspondence with him, and it's interesting and it's good that he's
not on some newspaper deadline as most interviewers are.
-=-Rule one: the only thing that holds interest is conflict. If
there is no conflict happening -=-
If the whole audience is invested in school (university students/professors),
the conflict doesn't need to be in the movie. The whole THING will conflict
with what they think they're sure they know.
-=Don't show him this email - he may get ideas from it. -=-
Why would you want to withhold ideas from someone??
Isn't learning all about getting ideas?
And if he makes a good unschooling video, isn't that good for him and
everyone who would ever see it?
-=-The only person I would trust to make a documentary that did not end up
making unschoolers look like oddballs at best would be another unschooler,
like Cameron Lovejoy for example.-=-
Have you seen Cameron's beautiful short, "The Road Not Taken"? I missed it
at the conference, but got a copy later.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dezigna@... writes:
I want to say first up that I am a cynic, or maybe just paranoid. I hope
that I am wrong. The idea that he is vague about what he wants to show makes
me go "hmmmm."
------------
If he's never met many real unschooling families, he probably doesn't have a
good idea WHAT he wants to show, or what's showable.
I'm in correspondence with him, and it's interesting and it's good that he's
not on some newspaper deadline as most interviewers are.
-=-Rule one: the only thing that holds interest is conflict. If
there is no conflict happening -=-
If the whole audience is invested in school (university students/professors),
the conflict doesn't need to be in the movie. The whole THING will conflict
with what they think they're sure they know.
-=Don't show him this email - he may get ideas from it. -=-
Why would you want to withhold ideas from someone??
Isn't learning all about getting ideas?
And if he makes a good unschooling video, isn't that good for him and
everyone who would ever see it?
-=-The only person I would trust to make a documentary that did not end up
making unschoolers look like oddballs at best would be another unschooler,
like Cameron Lovejoy for example.-=-
Have you seen Cameron's beautiful short, "The Road Not Taken"? I missed it
at the conference, but got a copy later.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On Nov 7, 2004, at 2:10 PM, Robyn Coburn wrote:
unschooling was - how really totally different from schooling it would
be, until he'd already gotten approval for the project and gotten his
advisor all excited over it. (He may be on this list, if so -
HELLO!!!). So, when I pointed out that following families around for a
few days might not make for a great film - I'm not sure he really got
it how boring that could really be.
His idea for the "conflict" is that he wants to find a family with kids
who have unschooled and then gone to school - so he can show the
contrast - look at schooling through an unschooler's eyes.
-pam
> The idea that he is vague about what he wants to show makesThe reason he is vague is, I think, that he hadn't understood what
> me go "hmmmm."
unschooling was - how really totally different from schooling it would
be, until he'd already gotten approval for the project and gotten his
advisor all excited over it. (He may be on this list, if so -
HELLO!!!). So, when I pointed out that following families around for a
few days might not make for a great film - I'm not sure he really got
it how boring that could really be.
His idea for the "conflict" is that he wants to find a family with kids
who have unschooled and then gone to school - so he can show the
contrast - look at schooling through an unschooler's eyes.
-pam
Elizabeth Hill
**
The only person I would trust to make a documentary that did not end up
making unschoolers look like oddballs at best would be another unschooler,
like Cameron Lovejoy for example. Hey maybe we *are* oddballs.**
I may have to run out and join Control Freaks Anonymous <g>, but I was thinking that the only unschooling documentary I would be really, really comfortable would be if somehow I (and other unschooling families) were handed big piles of film about our lives, and each of us could edit it ourselves to show what we want shown. (Hey, this is what every politician wants, too.)
When cameras are really cheap, and we all know how to use editing software, it would be fun to do a project like that for showing at a conference or for putting on an unschooling site on the web.
Betsy
PS Last thought: I think the biggest fear I have about an unschooling documentary is that the general audience is prejudiced against play. I don't think I'm wrong about that. And that kind of preconception is a hard thing to overcome with film footage.
The only person I would trust to make a documentary that did not end up
making unschoolers look like oddballs at best would be another unschooler,
like Cameron Lovejoy for example. Hey maybe we *are* oddballs.**
I may have to run out and join Control Freaks Anonymous <g>, but I was thinking that the only unschooling documentary I would be really, really comfortable would be if somehow I (and other unschooling families) were handed big piles of film about our lives, and each of us could edit it ourselves to show what we want shown. (Hey, this is what every politician wants, too.)
When cameras are really cheap, and we all know how to use editing software, it would be fun to do a project like that for showing at a conference or for putting on an unschooling site on the web.
Betsy
PS Last thought: I think the biggest fear I have about an unschooling documentary is that the general audience is prejudiced against play. I don't think I'm wrong about that. And that kind of preconception is a hard thing to overcome with film footage.
Elizabeth Hill
** His idea for the "conflict" is that he wants to find a family with kids
who have unschooled and then gone to school - so he can show the
contrast - look at schooling through an unschooler's eyes.**
When his first query was posted on the HSC list, and also came around to
my San Jose group the request was for an unschooling family with a kid
at home and a kid at school. That profile just doesn't fit very many
families out of a small population to start with.
There is a bricks and mortar charter school in Redwood City with an
enrollment of under 400 kids (I think) and based on social chitchat at
least a few of those kids were homeschooled up to a year or two years
ago. (I don't know if any of them were unschoolers.) Maybe he could
find some interesting stories there, but it seems likely that the
principal will want to control what is "published" about his/her
school. (There's a second storyline there about how the charter school
is different from high school as most of us experienced it.)
There's a Sudbury school in Concord that struggles with low enrollment.
They might be motivated to allow filming if it would give them positive
film clips that they could use on their website as a marketing tool.
(Or they might be as uptight about their kids' privacy as I am.)
Betsy
who have unschooled and then gone to school - so he can show the
contrast - look at schooling through an unschooler's eyes.**
When his first query was posted on the HSC list, and also came around to
my San Jose group the request was for an unschooling family with a kid
at home and a kid at school. That profile just doesn't fit very many
families out of a small population to start with.
There is a bricks and mortar charter school in Redwood City with an
enrollment of under 400 kids (I think) and based on social chitchat at
least a few of those kids were homeschooled up to a year or two years
ago. (I don't know if any of them were unschoolers.) Maybe he could
find some interesting stories there, but it seems likely that the
principal will want to control what is "published" about his/her
school. (There's a second storyline there about how the charter school
is different from high school as most of us experienced it.)
There's a Sudbury school in Concord that struggles with low enrollment.
They might be motivated to allow filming if it would give them positive
film clips that they could use on their website as a marketing tool.
(Or they might be as uptight about their kids' privacy as I am.)
Betsy
alexandriapalonia
Some kids DO play videos all day. It's what they need then. If
they're enthusiastic about it, what difference does it make? After
all, isn't that the point of unschooling?--for children to decide
what's best for them and what they need?
It seems like you're embarassed that it might be portrayed that way.
Alex
day long". This> is dull on screen. So he interviews someone, some
education expert talking> about the "dangers of electronic media". He
can probably find plenty of> experts in his own faculty at UCB. He
intercuts between "statements" and the> kids playing, and playing.
This is starting to look interesting.
Then he> intercuts between that "enthusiasm" and the kids still
playing, and playing,> and playing video games. OK.
they're enthusiastic about it, what difference does it make? After
all, isn't that the point of unschooling?--for children to decide
what's best for them and what they need?
It seems like you're embarassed that it might be portrayed that way.
Alex
> I'll give you an entirely hypothetical example. Suppose he hasmasses of> footage of several families' kids playing video games "all
day long". This> is dull on screen. So he interviews someone, some
education expert talking> about the "dangers of electronic media". He
can probably find plenty of> experts in his own faculty at UCB. He
intercuts between "statements" and the> kids playing, and playing.
This is starting to look interesting.
>talking> about the variety of cool things their family does each day.
> OK now for some humor...he shows some footage of one of the mothers
Then he> intercuts between that "enthusiasm" and the kids still
playing, and playing,> and playing video games. OK.
> Robyn L. Coburn
pam sorooshian
On Nov 7, 2004, at 6:22 PM, Elizabeth Hill wrote:
pictures and short video clips and put music and words into it. It was
a little tedious, but very easy and fun and wonderful to watch. They
were about 20 minutes each.
Maybe next year's conference I'll do that during the conference - it
would be so much fun to show at the end.
I don't have a digital projector, though. My husband's company let's us
borrow one overnight for nonprofit organization purposes - but I
couldn't bring it to Florida.
-pam
> When cameras are really cheap, and we all know how to use editingI made iMovies for Rosie's 4H club and her soccer team. I used still
> software, it would be fun to do a project like that for showing at a
> conference or for putting on an unschooling site on the web.
>
pictures and short video clips and put music and words into it. It was
a little tedious, but very easy and fun and wonderful to watch. They
were about 20 minutes each.
Maybe next year's conference I'll do that during the conference - it
would be so much fun to show at the end.
I don't have a digital projector, though. My husband's company let's us
borrow one overnight for nonprofit organization purposes - but I
couldn't bring it to Florida.
-pam
Robyn Coburn
<<<<If the whole audience is invested in school (university
students/professors),
the conflict doesn't need to be in the movie. The whole THING will conflict
with what they think they're sure they know.>>>>
That is the kind of conflict behind many documentaries - the difference
between what people think they know and what they then find out. A better
word might be "tension".
If it is a graduate thesis film I would have thought the hope would be to
gain a wider audience than just his teachers, in the fullness of time. Maybe
journalism is different from film studies in that respect.
<<<<<Why would you want to withhold ideas from someone??
Isn't learning all about getting ideas?
And if he makes a good unschooling video, isn't that good for him and
everyone who would ever see it?>>>
The "ideas" I was talking about are ideas that would be at our expense. They
are ways to make his film more interesting, but make us and unschooling,
look stupid - buying into wider misconceptions.
I'm really happy to hear that he is getting information and ideas from you,
Sandra, which are unlikely to be negatively slanted while being disguised as
"balance".
<<<Have you seen Cameron's beautiful short, "The Road Not Taken"? I missed
it at the conference, but got a copy later.>>>
Yes, we bought a copy. I think it is well shot compositionally and tightly
edited. That's why I believe he has the makings of a good filmmaker. Boy,
have I seen (and worked on) a lot of student and first time director films.
His is so much better than most.
Robyn L. Coburn
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students/professors),
the conflict doesn't need to be in the movie. The whole THING will conflict
with what they think they're sure they know.>>>>
That is the kind of conflict behind many documentaries - the difference
between what people think they know and what they then find out. A better
word might be "tension".
If it is a graduate thesis film I would have thought the hope would be to
gain a wider audience than just his teachers, in the fullness of time. Maybe
journalism is different from film studies in that respect.
<<<<<Why would you want to withhold ideas from someone??
Isn't learning all about getting ideas?
And if he makes a good unschooling video, isn't that good for him and
everyone who would ever see it?>>>
The "ideas" I was talking about are ideas that would be at our expense. They
are ways to make his film more interesting, but make us and unschooling,
look stupid - buying into wider misconceptions.
I'm really happy to hear that he is getting information and ideas from you,
Sandra, which are unlikely to be negatively slanted while being disguised as
"balance".
<<<Have you seen Cameron's beautiful short, "The Road Not Taken"? I missed
it at the conference, but got a copy later.>>>
Yes, we bought a copy. I think it is well shot compositionally and tightly
edited. That's why I believe he has the makings of a good filmmaker. Boy,
have I seen (and worked on) a lot of student and first time director films.
His is so much better than most.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Robyn Coburn
<<<<His idea for the "conflict" is that he wants to find a family with kids
who have unschooled and then gone to school - so he can show the
contrast - look at schooling through an unschooler's eyes.>>>>
Oh this is a whole different animal! This could be really interesting for
both unschoolers *and* everyone else. Now you're talking!
Robyn L. Coburn
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who have unschooled and then gone to school - so he can show the
contrast - look at schooling through an unschooler's eyes.>>>>
Oh this is a whole different animal! This could be really interesting for
both unschoolers *and* everyone else. Now you're talking!
Robyn L. Coburn
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Barbara Chase
>I don't have a digital projector, though. My husband's company let's usHere's an odd suggestion... most schools probably have one these days.
>borrow one overnight for nonprofit organization purposes - but I
>couldn't bring it to Florida.
Perhaps someone can arrange to borrow one from a school?? We have a local
group that likes to gather to show movies, and we used to borrow the
projector from the school. We arranged to buy them a bulb in exchange.
Now someone in the group owns a projector.
--bc--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<<<Some kids DO play videos all day. It's what they need then. If
they're enthusiastic about it, what difference does it make? After
all, isn't that the point of unschooling?--for children to decide
what's best for them and what they need? >>>>
Oh for crying out loud! My hypothetical concern was not that the kids
shouldn't be playing vid games all day, or any other activity, if that is
where they are at. I'm a proponent of free choice of activities and the
electronic media as a resource, if you have ever read anything I have ever
written on the subject.
My worry was that once the footage is in the can the filmmaker is free to
manipulate it any way he wants with editing for an effect. And the effect
could be to make us look dumb or neglectful or deluded, even though we all
know we aren't any of these things.
It's moot now, since further information shows that this guy is moving in a
different direction, one that sounds very interesting.
It was more along the lines of the experiences that some people have had, in
dealing with interviewers or the print media, of sometimes having their
words misquoted or taken out of context.
<<<<It seems like you're embarassed that it might be portrayed that way.>>>>
Not embarrassed. Wary of being made to look bad for the sake of someone's
grade or entertainment. Again. Can anyone say CBS?
I work in the film business. It is full of people who are pragmatic, cynical
and focused on the bottom line. It is full of people who can spin a good
line to get what they want - they usually become producers or location
managers. There is a reason why so much of politics seems to be like the
entertainment business. Both are founded on manipulating information for
emotional response. And of course the governor of California has turned out
to be a way better actor than anyone might have supposed from his early
work.
Robyn L. Coburn
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they're enthusiastic about it, what difference does it make? After
all, isn't that the point of unschooling?--for children to decide
what's best for them and what they need? >>>>
Oh for crying out loud! My hypothetical concern was not that the kids
shouldn't be playing vid games all day, or any other activity, if that is
where they are at. I'm a proponent of free choice of activities and the
electronic media as a resource, if you have ever read anything I have ever
written on the subject.
My worry was that once the footage is in the can the filmmaker is free to
manipulate it any way he wants with editing for an effect. And the effect
could be to make us look dumb or neglectful or deluded, even though we all
know we aren't any of these things.
It's moot now, since further information shows that this guy is moving in a
different direction, one that sounds very interesting.
It was more along the lines of the experiences that some people have had, in
dealing with interviewers or the print media, of sometimes having their
words misquoted or taken out of context.
<<<<It seems like you're embarassed that it might be portrayed that way.>>>>
Not embarrassed. Wary of being made to look bad for the sake of someone's
grade or entertainment. Again. Can anyone say CBS?
I work in the film business. It is full of people who are pragmatic, cynical
and focused on the bottom line. It is full of people who can spin a good
line to get what they want - they usually become producers or location
managers. There is a reason why so much of politics seems to be like the
entertainment business. Both are founded on manipulating information for
emotional response. And of course the governor of California has turned out
to be a way better actor than anyone might have supposed from his early
work.
Robyn L. Coburn
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pam sorooshian
On Nov 7, 2004, at 11:25 PM, Robyn Coburn wrote:
hearty laugh!!!
I really do understand your concerns about the film - I have NO idea if
it'll turn out okay or not, from our point of view. But, I guess I'm a
combination risk taker and optimist, huh? I think it is possible that
he'll do something we're satisfied with. Maybe. If we lend a hand. If
we don't - he can't do it. If we help out - he might.
-pam
> And of course the governor of California has turned outOkay - thank you Robyn - for sending me off to bed tonight with a good
> to be a way better actor than anyone might have supposed from his early
> work.
hearty laugh!!!
I really do understand your concerns about the film - I have NO idea if
it'll turn out okay or not, from our point of view. But, I guess I'm a
combination risk taker and optimist, huh? I think it is possible that
he'll do something we're satisfied with. Maybe. If we lend a hand. If
we don't - he can't do it. If we help out - he might.
-pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/7/04 4:21:23 PM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
<< The reason he is vague is, I think, that he hadn't understood what
unschooling was - how really totally different from schooling iwould
be, until . . . >>
How could he NOT be vague, really?
Most people who have declared "we
Z're going to unschool" are vague about it for the first few months, and they
have kids and are actually trying to do it.
Vague is WAY better than what mainstream folk know about what unschooling
might be.
-=-His idea for the "conflict" is that he wants to find a family with kids
who have unschooled and then gone to school - so he can show the
contrast - look at schooling through an unschooler's eyes.-=-
Will college count?
Because in some cases (maybe most) kids who go back to school were unhappy
with the way unschooling was going, or unhappy at home, and he might not get the
best of unschooling that way. And the same way people villify their ex
boyfriend or former religion or old job to help feel better about the new one, to
keep from feeling pangs of longing, kids who change styles of learning
probably do that same thing. I think it's human nature.
Sandra
<< The reason he is vague is, I think, that he hadn't understood what
unschooling was - how really totally different from schooling iwould
be, until . . . >>
How could he NOT be vague, really?
Most people who have declared "we
Z're going to unschool" are vague about it for the first few months, and they
have kids and are actually trying to do it.
Vague is WAY better than what mainstream folk know about what unschooling
might be.
-=-His idea for the "conflict" is that he wants to find a family with kids
who have unschooled and then gone to school - so he can show the
contrast - look at schooling through an unschooler's eyes.-=-
Will college count?
Because in some cases (maybe most) kids who go back to school were unhappy
with the way unschooling was going, or unhappy at home, and he might not get the
best of unschooling that way. And the same way people villify their ex
boyfriend or former religion or old job to help feel better about the new one, to
keep from feeling pangs of longing, kids who change styles of learning
probably do that same thing. I think it's human nature.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/7/04 11:11:12 PM, dezigna@... writes:
<< The "ideas" I was talking about are ideas that would be at our expense.
They
are ways to make his film more interesting, but make us and unschooling,
look stupid - buying into wider misconceptions. >>
But if he intends to do a positive portrayal, a set of things which have
ended up being negative portrayals in the past, or likely-easily-misunderstood
cliches would be something he could just avoid from the beginning.
He's not the county, come to make us look neglectful. He WANTS to show it
in good light.
Sandra
<< The "ideas" I was talking about are ideas that would be at our expense.
They
are ways to make his film more interesting, but make us and unschooling,
look stupid - buying into wider misconceptions. >>
But if he intends to do a positive portrayal, a set of things which have
ended up being negative portrayals in the past, or likely-easily-misunderstood
cliches would be something he could just avoid from the beginning.
He's not the county, come to make us look neglectful. He WANTS to show it
in good light.
Sandra
alexandriapalonia
By why would interspersing segments of childnre playing video games
all day make unschoolers look dumb, neglectful, or deluded? It is
part of the truth of unschooling. Why would it make anyone look bad?
Especially as a proponent of free choice in electronic media, why
wouldn't this fit perfectly in a documentary of unschooling?
(Afterall, it is something that is both unschooling in action and
film-able.)
Alex
After> all, isn't that the point of unschooling?--for children to
decide> what's best for them and what they need? >>>>
if that is> where they are at. I'm a proponent of free choice of
activities and the> electronic media as a resource, if you have ever
read anything I have ever> written on the subject.
And the effect> could be to make us look dumb or neglectful or
deluded, even though we all> know we aren't any of these things.
all day make unschoolers look dumb, neglectful, or deluded? It is
part of the truth of unschooling. Why would it make anyone look bad?
Especially as a proponent of free choice in electronic media, why
wouldn't this fit perfectly in a documentary of unschooling?
(Afterall, it is something that is both unschooling in action and
film-able.)
Alex
> <<<<<<Some kids DO play videos all day. It's what they need then.If> they're enthusiastic about it, what difference does it make?
After> all, isn't that the point of unschooling?--for children to
decide> what's best for them and what they need? >>>>
>kids> shouldn't be playing vid games all day, or any other activity,
> Oh for crying out loud! My hypothetical concern was not that the
if that is> where they are at. I'm a proponent of free choice of
activities and the> electronic media as a resource, if you have ever
read anything I have ever> written on the subject.
>free to> manipulate it any way he wants with editing for an effect.
> My worry was that once the footage is in the can the filmmaker is
And the effect> could be to make us look dumb or neglectful or
deluded, even though we all> know we aren't any of these things.
> <<<<It seems like you're embarassed that it might be portrayed thatway.>>>>
>someone's> grade or entertainment. Again. Can anyone say CBS?
> Not embarrassed. Wary of being made to look bad for the sake of
> Robyn L. Coburn
Deb Lewis
***By why would interspersing segments of childnre playing video games
all day make unschoolers look dumb, neglectful, or deluded? It is
part of the truth of unschooling. Why would it make anyone look bad?***
The point was not whether video games were ok to play but what non
unschooling viewers of the documentary could conclude about unschooling
if unschoolers were portrayed as neglectful for "allowing" unlimited
video game play.
Because the popular belief is that access to and time spent on video
games should be limited.
Google returned 297,000 hits on a search of "children video game play
limits" suggesting that many believe video game play by children should
be limited. A family that does not limit video game play might then look
neglectful or just plain stupid to non unschooling outsiders. Do you
really believe traditional, mainstream parents think unlimited video game
play is healthy?
Here's an blurb from one especially sickening bit:
*Both younger children and teenagers should be limited to one hour of
playing time per day, Monday to Friday.
It is important for children of all ages to understand that homework and
household chores take priority over video games. While video game playing
time can be extended on weekends, it is important for parents to
encourage other means of recreational play.
Make video game playing a PRIVILEGE, not a RIGHT This approach allows
you to use video games as a reward for positive behaviour.
Set time limits Set a daily limit for video game playing and set aside a
specific period each day for the activity.
Homework comes first Explain to your child that homework and chores come
first. Take away video game playing privileges if your child fails to
complete his homework or chores. You may also choose to use video games
as part of a reward system by extending his play time or renting a new
game when he puts extra effort into his chores or homework.*
Deb L
all day make unschoolers look dumb, neglectful, or deluded? It is
part of the truth of unschooling. Why would it make anyone look bad?***
The point was not whether video games were ok to play but what non
unschooling viewers of the documentary could conclude about unschooling
if unschoolers were portrayed as neglectful for "allowing" unlimited
video game play.
Because the popular belief is that access to and time spent on video
games should be limited.
Google returned 297,000 hits on a search of "children video game play
limits" suggesting that many believe video game play by children should
be limited. A family that does not limit video game play might then look
neglectful or just plain stupid to non unschooling outsiders. Do you
really believe traditional, mainstream parents think unlimited video game
play is healthy?
Here's an blurb from one especially sickening bit:
*Both younger children and teenagers should be limited to one hour of
playing time per day, Monday to Friday.
It is important for children of all ages to understand that homework and
household chores take priority over video games. While video game playing
time can be extended on weekends, it is important for parents to
encourage other means of recreational play.
Make video game playing a PRIVILEGE, not a RIGHT This approach allows
you to use video games as a reward for positive behaviour.
Set time limits Set a daily limit for video game playing and set aside a
specific period each day for the activity.
Homework comes first Explain to your child that homework and chores come
first. Take away video game playing privileges if your child fails to
complete his homework or chores. You may also choose to use video games
as part of a reward system by extending his play time or renting a new
game when he puts extra effort into his chores or homework.*
Deb L
Kelli Traaseth
***The point was not whether video games were ok to play but what non
unschooling viewers of the documentary could conclude about unschooling
if unschoolers were portrayed as neglectful for "allowing" unlimited
video game play. ***
This is one reason why I'm a bit worried about an interview that's coming up in a couple days. Yet, I'm going to go into it hoping that she's wanting to learn something and she's going to try and get my point across.
I decided to do the interview for the local newspaper. The interview is about homeschooling, but she wants to show the different approaches. I have my notes and I've talked to the kids a bit too about the whole thing. The whole video game thing could be interesting because my son is a video game guru. :) It is his passion and its shown me so much about him and his learning. I'm planning on handing her Pam L.'s article on video game playing and a Life Learning magazine. If the talk goes in that direction.
This thread has gotten me thinking about how things can be manipulated, again.
Kelli~
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschooling viewers of the documentary could conclude about unschooling
if unschoolers were portrayed as neglectful for "allowing" unlimited
video game play. ***
This is one reason why I'm a bit worried about an interview that's coming up in a couple days. Yet, I'm going to go into it hoping that she's wanting to learn something and she's going to try and get my point across.
I decided to do the interview for the local newspaper. The interview is about homeschooling, but she wants to show the different approaches. I have my notes and I've talked to the kids a bit too about the whole thing. The whole video game thing could be interesting because my son is a video game guru. :) It is his passion and its shown me so much about him and his learning. I'm planning on handing her Pam L.'s article on video game playing and a Life Learning magazine. If the talk goes in that direction.
This thread has gotten me thinking about how things can be manipulated, again.
Kelli~
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<<I really do understand your concerns about the film - I have NO idea if
it'll turn out okay or not, from our point of view. But, I guess I'm a
combination risk taker and optimist, huh? I think it is possible that
he'll do something we're satisfied with. Maybe. If we lend a hand. If
we don't - he can't do it. If we help out - he might.>>>>
What about another kind of help?
James is a production sound mixer, currently working on a reality show. He
is fully set up to go totally portable and wireless, or do talking heads.
Robyn L. Coburn
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it'll turn out okay or not, from our point of view. But, I guess I'm a
combination risk taker and optimist, huh? I think it is possible that
he'll do something we're satisfied with. Maybe. If we lend a hand. If
we don't - he can't do it. If we help out - he might.>>>>
What about another kind of help?
James is a production sound mixer, currently working on a reality show. He
is fully set up to go totally portable and wireless, or do talking heads.
Robyn L. Coburn
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alexandriapalonia
There's a book on liturgy whose thrust is obviously different, but
whose title and main point is: "Reaching Out Without Dumbing Down."
It feels so hypocritical (even in the face of naysayers) and sneaky to
try and hide the realities of unschooling.
So what if a the "traditional, mainstream" parents of 97 million
children think unlimited video is a good thing? They also think
public school is a "traditional, mainstream" good thing.
Alex
"allowing" unlimited> video game play.
children should> be limited. A family that does not limit video game
play might then look> neglectful or just plain stupid to non
unschooling outsiders. Do you> really believe traditional, mainstream
parents think unlimited video game> play is healthy?
whose title and main point is: "Reaching Out Without Dumbing Down."
It feels so hypocritical (even in the face of naysayers) and sneaky to
try and hide the realities of unschooling.
So what if a the "traditional, mainstream" parents of 97 million
children think unlimited video is a good thing? They also think
public school is a "traditional, mainstream" good thing.
Alex
> The point was not whether video games were ok to play but what nonunschooling> if unschoolers were portrayed as neglectful for
> unschooling viewers of the documentary could conclude about
"allowing" unlimited> video game play.
>play> limits" suggesting that many believe video game play by
> Because the popular belief is that access to and time spent on video
> games should be limited.
>
> Google returned 297,000 hits on a search of "children video game
children should> be limited. A family that does not limit video game
play might then look> neglectful or just plain stupid to non
unschooling outsiders. Do you> really believe traditional, mainstream
parents think unlimited video game> play is healthy?
> Deb L
pam sorooshian
Translation please? <BEG>
-pam
-pam
On Nov 8, 2004, at 1:34 PM, Robyn Coburn wrote:
> What about another kind of help?
>
> James is a production sound mixer, currently working on a reality
> show. He
> is fully set up to go totally portable and wireless, or do talking
> heads.
Robyn Coburn
<<<<<<By why would interspersing segments of childnre playing video games
all day make unschoolers look dumb, neglectful, or deluded? It is
part of the truth of unschooling. Why would it make anyone look bad?
Especially as a proponent of free choice in electronic media, why
wouldn't this fit perfectly in a documentary of unschooling?
(Afterall, it is something that is both unschooling in action and
film-able.)>>>>>>
It was the *content* of what was (hypothetically) being juxtaposed that
would cast a negative light, especially for viewers who didn't know anything
else about u/s, on the constant appearing gaming, not the gaming itself.
Expert on the harm electronic media does = unschoolers dangerously ignorant
Mother talking about lots of activities vs only seeing one constantly =
unschoolers deluded or humorously naive
Expert making medical warning statements = unschoolers willfully neglectful
of kids' health.
To outsiders. To people for whom this might be their introduction to
Unschooling.
It doesn't matter now. The filmmaker is in contact with Sandra and Pam, and
they are evidently convinced he is going to create an accurately positive,
sympathetic portrayal. That's good enough for me.
I guess I just don't like it when someone *seems* to be repeatedly,
willfully misunderstanding me. Was my writing really that unclear in the
original post?
I was making a comment on how filmmakers can and do use tricks to manipulate
information, *not* on the actions of the unschoolers. This kind of "reading"
television and movies critically, so that we can be aware of the tricks
being employed is something that I hope Jayn will gain from some of our
family viewing. We talk a lot about the technical aspects of what we are
seeing: SFX, mis-en-scene, editing, acting.
Robyn L. Coburn
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all day make unschoolers look dumb, neglectful, or deluded? It is
part of the truth of unschooling. Why would it make anyone look bad?
Especially as a proponent of free choice in electronic media, why
wouldn't this fit perfectly in a documentary of unschooling?
(Afterall, it is something that is both unschooling in action and
film-able.)>>>>>>
It was the *content* of what was (hypothetically) being juxtaposed that
would cast a negative light, especially for viewers who didn't know anything
else about u/s, on the constant appearing gaming, not the gaming itself.
Expert on the harm electronic media does = unschoolers dangerously ignorant
Mother talking about lots of activities vs only seeing one constantly =
unschoolers deluded or humorously naive
Expert making medical warning statements = unschoolers willfully neglectful
of kids' health.
To outsiders. To people for whom this might be their introduction to
Unschooling.
It doesn't matter now. The filmmaker is in contact with Sandra and Pam, and
they are evidently convinced he is going to create an accurately positive,
sympathetic portrayal. That's good enough for me.
I guess I just don't like it when someone *seems* to be repeatedly,
willfully misunderstanding me. Was my writing really that unclear in the
original post?
I was making a comment on how filmmakers can and do use tricks to manipulate
information, *not* on the actions of the unschoolers. This kind of "reading"
television and movies critically, so that we can be aware of the tricks
being employed is something that I hope Jayn will gain from some of our
family viewing. We talk a lot about the technical aspects of what we are
seeing: SFX, mis-en-scene, editing, acting.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Robyn Coburn
<<<<<So what if a the "traditional, mainstream" parents of 97 million
children think unlimited video is a good thing? They also think
public school is a "traditional, mainstream" good thing.>>>>>
Alex, was this a typo or are you just not reading carefully yourself? The
point that Deb was making is that the vast majority think that unlimited
video gaming is a *very bad* thing, and also that parental control is the
foundation of good parenting. Because this is what they are being told
repeatedly, from many mainstream sources.
Even if our children are seen to be playing video games all day, it is still
not the whole picture, as most of us do see the other things our children
manage to squeeze in around the gaming, and all the wondrous things they are
learning from gaming. It would only be a truly balanced portrayal if these
other things were also shown and elucidated.
Robyn L. Coburn
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children think unlimited video is a good thing? They also think
public school is a "traditional, mainstream" good thing.>>>>>
Alex, was this a typo or are you just not reading carefully yourself? The
point that Deb was making is that the vast majority think that unlimited
video gaming is a *very bad* thing, and also that parental control is the
foundation of good parenting. Because this is what they are being told
repeatedly, from many mainstream sources.
Even if our children are seen to be playing video games all day, it is still
not the whole picture, as most of us do see the other things our children
manage to squeeze in around the gaming, and all the wondrous things they are
learning from gaming. It would only be a truly balanced portrayal if these
other things were also shown and elucidated.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Robyn Coburn
> James is a production sound mixer, currently working on a realityThe filmmaker will need someone to record sound. My dh has the equipment and
> show. He
> is fully set up to go totally portable and wireless, or do talking
> heads.
experience to do ENG (electronic new gathering) which is running around
following the camera. He also can record sound in a set up situation - an
interview, either with or without the interviewer being seen and heard. When
the time comes maybe they can work something out, if your friend still needs
help in that area. I'm sure there are plenty of mixers at UCB. The
difference is that James gets Unschooling, and would not be afraid to
express his opinion, and would probably dig meeting the featured families.
Robyn L. Coburn
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pam sorooshian
Aha - thank you. I will let him know!! That would be awesome for James
to be involved, if we could swing that!
-pam
to be involved, if we could swing that!
-pam
On Nov 8, 2004, at 3:41 PM, Robyn Coburn wrote:
> The
> difference is that James gets Unschooling, and would not be afraid to
> express his opinion, and would probably dig meeting the featured
> families.