sweetbo3boys

Hi. I wrote a while back with another question, and you were all so
helpful that I thought I would write again. I think I am handling
this OK, but would like some advice if anyone is willing to give it.
My 11 year old keeps asking me to give him a curriculum. He wants to
do school at home. All the subjects, specifically. At first I was
asking him what he wants to do, and he said a few specific goals
like cursive writing and math in general. I asked him if he wanted a
cursive book, and he decided he just wanted a sheet to show the
cursive letters so he could work on them himself, so I gave that to
him. I asked him if he wanted a math book or just to work on math
together, he wanted a math book. I got some developmental math
books, Key to... books and miquon, and thought he could see if that
was what he wanted. He liked the books. He did work on the cursive
and math one day and then left them alone. It has been about a month
since that happened. I did not bug him about it, or push him to do
it. The past couple of days he has been asking me again about doing
a curriculum. I asked him once again what he wanted to "do", and he
said... math, science, reading writing, history, - a realy
curriculum. I remided him of the books I purchased for him and he
said that was fine , but he wanted everything. He said he wants to
be prepared to take his GED when it was time and that I need to
force him to do his work. He wanted me to go back to a couple of
years ago when I did not know any better and make him do his work. I
am sensitive to this because we both ended up in tears when that
happened. I don't want to go back to that, and I have told him so. I
asked him if he would like me to get him a mentor and he can work
with them, and he said no. So, I am working with him, but I told him
that it has to come from him. I can wake him up in the morning and
remind him that he wanted to do some work , but I will not struggle
with him to do it. I am going to try and just figure out what he
wants to learn, and be there for him.

I have a feeling that he is stressed because our homeschooling
groups have mostly kids that school at home, and people ask him all
the time what he is doing. I think maybe he is trying to fit in, or
feels scared that he will not get to go to college or work or
anything if he does not go. I am trying to just keep the
communication going, and give him examples of what he "is" learning
all on his own. Life has been really good since we started
unschooling. I realize that he is much older now, and a lot more
mature, so maybe he could handle "school at home" better, but that
is not what I want. We will se what happens, I just thought that if
anyone had any advice on workbooks, or things that might get him
going that I may have not thought of, it would give me some more
insight. I know that he is asking for a reason, and maybe I am just
making it more difficult than it has to be. People in my
homeschooling group think I am crazy, because my son is begging to
do work and I have such a relaxed attitude towards it, but I truly
think that by forcing him even when he is asking is not the answer.
I like a more realistic approach.

IF you have any thought, I appreciate it. Thank you so much for
listening.

Angela Bohan

Kelly Muzyczka

Get him the What your X Grader Should Know books. Get one for "his" grade
(at 11 that's what? 6th??) Then get one from before and one from after.

He can see all the subjects laid out with the actual info and sources to do
more work. Tell him that no school actually covers ALL of it, and some
don't come anywhere close. They do a nice job of summing up areas of study
as well as showing how repetitive most of school is. -grin-
I would stand by the "I won't stay on you, but I'll remind you and help out."

And, I would try to hook him up with people who learn outside the box.
Good luck.

Kelly
I love mankind, it's people I can't stand. --Linus

sweetbo3boys

Thank you Kelly. I like those books, but never thought about giving
it to him to use, I always used them for me. Good Idea.
ang--- In [email protected], Kelly Muzyczka
<mina@m...> wrote:
>
>
> Get him the What your X Grader Should Know books. Get one
for "his" grade
> (at 11 that's what? 6th??) Then get one from before and one from
after.
>
> He can see all the subjects laid out with the actual info and
sources to do
> more work. Tell him that no school actually covers ALL of it, and
some
> don't come anywhere close. They do a nice job of summing up areas
of study
> as well as showing how repetitive most of school is. -grin-
> I would stand by the "I won't stay on you, but I'll remind you and
help out."
>
> And, I would try to hook him up with people who learn outside the
box.
> Good luck.
>
> Kelly
> I love mankind, it's people I can't stand. --Linus

Fetteroll

on 10/11/04 12:30 PM, sweetbo3boys at sweetbo3boys@... wrote:

> He said he wants to
> be prepared to take his GED when it was time and that I need to
> force him to do his work.

It sounds like he doesn't necessarily want to do a curriculum (or he'd be
doing the workbooks) so much as he's afraid that what he's doing won't let
him get to college.

I think handing him a curriculum is going to feel like you're saying that
you're washing your hands of the responsibility of preparing him and placing
it all on his shoulders.

One bad side effect of sending kids to school or doing school at home is
that kids can become as convinced that school is the only way to learn as
thoroughly as adults. Plus the fact that up until recently you were saying
"Trust me, you have to do this or you won't succeed in life," but now you're
saying "Oops, I was wrong. But trust me, now I know you don't have to do
that to succeed." It would be natural for him to worry that you'd discover
you were wrong again and he did need to do the work.

I think what would help most is if he met other unschoolers so he could see
that following interests works and to counter the messages he's getting
elsewhere. Have you advertised an unschoolers get together? Try the library,
natural food stores, coops and so on. Lots of people have said that when
they put out the call for unschoolers that unschoolers came out of the
woodwork. :-) Even -- or maybe especially -- in heavily Christian areas
where Bob Jones rules. Unschoolers tend to feel like they're alone so they
go out of their way to meet other unschoolers when they find others are
actually out there.

Maybe it would help if he'd write out all his concerns and post them here so
people could sort of remotely show them their unschooled children and what,
especially the older ones, are doing without curriculum. And he'd hear other
adults saying what you're saying about not needing school work and it might
sound more credible to him.

Would he let you read him the Teenage Liberation Handbook?

Then I'd make sure he has easy access to exploring his interests. And fun
educational stuff like computer programs and online games and things you'll
do with him, which might be an easier step than going from schoolwork to
doing "whatever". And then be available to help him set up a schedule but
not enforce it -- like you're doing now -- to do school work if he wants. If
he feels like you're a road block in what he wants, even if it's schoolwork,
it will make it harder for him to let go of it since it will feel like
you're making the decision for him to make him let it go.

Joyce

Martha Donnelly

Can anybody help me out here? I've been reading this list and other
unschooling resources since the beginning of the summer, and I have yet
to come across an unqualified endorsement of unschooling by an adult
who was raised this way. Can anyone link me up?

Martha D.

Elizabeth Hill

** My 11 year old keeps asking me to give him a curriculum. He wants to
do school at home. All the subjects, specifically.**

Hi, Angela -

(I like what Joyce posted a lot more than what I wrote, but maybe part
of my post is still useful.)

OK. If he believes he wants curriculum and is asking for it, I'm not
going to try very hard to stop you.

One thought -- get something used, don't blow a pile of cash on
something of dubious value that he's likely to tire of. Get it cheap
enough so that some day you can happily toss it out.

(I'm in CA and at the Sacramento bookroom, I can get recycled public
school textbooks for generally less than $10. And I can get college
level textbooks at my local library sale for $1 each. I bought a World
History text on Saturday for that price. But I'm not sure why I wanted
it. Maybe I'm storing up textbooks and nuts for the winter. <g>)

Second thought -- involve him in the selection process. Have him look
through some of the curricular materials that your homeschooling friends
have. I also like The Complete Homelearning Source Book, which reviews
lots of "learning materials", not just curriculum in a box. I've also
lived in cities where the public libraries had math textbooks on the
shelves. He can "audition" them.

Third thought -- debrief him on your prior school at home experiences.
What parts of it did he think were "best" and "worst". He's either
going to revisit some of the unhappy feelinsg now, or when he repeats
those experiences.

Final thought -- he mentioned GED prep. Can you get a GED prep book
from the library and look at that first?

Post-final thought -- just this week someone on one of these lists
posted a link to an Alfie Kohn article on what it means to be educated.
You could make that article into a lesson on philosophy and critical
thinking for you son. <g> (If he's ready for it.) It's fairly
thought-provoking stuff.

I have some empathy for you son, because when I was trying to learn more
about computer programming in my 30s, I would only make progress when I
was signed up for a class. Somehow I needed that "push" of having a due
date for assigned homework. I think the reason I needed that was that I
wasn't really sincerely interested in programming, just thought I
"should" learn about it and that it would be "good for me" to do so.

Betsy

PS OK, this is an evil idea and you can take it or leave it, but an
imp on my shoulder said "Make him pay for it." In theory he would....
um... appreciate it more.

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/12/04 8:12:51 AM, msahyun@... writes:

<< I have yet to come across an unqualified endorsement of unschooling by an
adult
who was raised this way.>>

If one person did give you an unqualified endorsement, would that prove it
would work for you and your family?

If you heard one unqualified endorsement that the public schools were really
the best way to go, would you send your kids there?

What if you had a dozen such endorsements?

What if you find one formerly schooled person (are there any? Who went to
public school for twelve or thirteen years?) who said public school was
horrible? Would that turn you off to public school all by itself?

What if you find one formerly unschooled person who says "It was terrible"?

(Just questions to keep in mind as you move along toward finding "adult
results."

Sandra

pam sorooshian

On Oct 12, 2004, at 6:38 AM, Martha Donnelly wrote:

>
> Can anybody help me out here? I've been reading this list and other
> unschooling resources since the beginning of the summer, and I have yet
> to come across an unqualified endorsement of unschooling by an adult
> who was raised this way. Can anyone link me up?

How old an adult do you want? My daughter is almost 20 and has lots of
unschooled friends in their early 20s. They're big supporters of
unschooling. Every year the HSC (HomeSchool Association of California)
has a young adults panel - always includes unschooled young adults.
There are tapes available of those - go to <www.hsc.org>.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Julie Bogart

> ** My 11 year old keeps asking me to give him a curriculum. He wants to
> do school at home. All the subjects, specifically.**

Angela, I'm late on this thread, but I have a son like this. He's almost thirteen and we
started unschooling when he was 11. I got great advice at the time.

First of all, some kids measure themselves against others. My son was worried that if he
couldn't quantify his progress in a subject, then he wasn't learning. As a result, I told him
if he wanted to floow his original curricula, he could. So I would pull it out in the mornings
(several different books) and put it on the table. But I told him that I wasn't going to
"enforce" his doing it.

This riled him up some. He thought he "should" be pushed to do it.

Over the course of a year, he did less and less of the curricula. He became more and more
engaged in his own interests. Still, occasionally he would go to bed at night anxious that
he wasn't getting an education.

At the end of last year, I wrote up a narrative of all he had learned for the state. I read it to
him so that he could verify ot modify it. By the end, he was grinning ear to ear. He said,
"Wow, I really am learning a lot! Could you do this for me each month so that I can have
evidence that I really am learning?"

That was the heart of his concern.

And this year, he has chosen to use a math curricula even though I'm convinced he doesn't
need it (after not liking the one he used last year... he decided that for math, he enjoys
following a program but wanted to try something new. We looked at programs together
and bought MathUSee because it appealed to him. He loves it and I say nothing one way or
the other.)

Julie B

Robyn Coburn

<<<Can anybody help me out here? I've been reading this list and other
unschooling resources since the beginning of the summer, and I have yet
to come across an unqualified endorsement of unschooling by an adult
who was raised this way. Can anyone link me up?>>>

Valerie Fitzenreiter's daughter Laurie does so in the foreward to "The
Unprocessed Child".

There is a new regular column in Life Learning Magazine written by an adult
who grew up unscholed about other adults who were unschooled - kind of a
"where are they now" thing.

www.LifeLearningMagazine.com

Robyn L. Coburn


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.773 / Virus Database: 520 - Release Date: 10/5/2004

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/12/04 12:41:05 PM, dezigna@... writes:

<< Valerie Fitzenreiter's daughter Laurie does so in the foreward to "The
Unprocessed Child". >>

There's info by her online too, linked here, along with other older teens'
sites:

http://sandradodd.com/teens

Martha Donnelly

On Oct 12, 2004, at 9:36 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> <If one person did give you an unqualified endorsement, would that
> prove it
> would work for you and your family?>
>
>

Of course not, but it would be reassuring. If I make search in good
faith (which I'm just beginning here) and fail to turn up even one
adult who is really enthusiastic about their unschooled childhood,
wouldn't that suggest a few bugs in the philosophy?

Martha D.

Martha Donnelly

On Oct 12, 2004, at 9:46 AM, pam sorooshian wrote:

> < Every year the HSC (HomeSchool Association of California)
> has a young adults panel - always includes unschooled young adults.
> There are tapes available of those - go to <www.hsc.org>. >

Are you referring to the last tape on the list - "The Grown Without
Schooling Panel"?

Martha D.

Martha Donnelly

On Oct 12, 2004, at 1:39 PM, Robyn Coburn wrote:

>
> <<<<Can anybody help me out here? I've been reading this list and other
> unschooling resources since the beginning of the summer, and I have yet
> to come across an unqualified endorsement of unschooling by an adult
> who was raised this way. Can anyone link me up?>>>
>
> Valerie Fitzenreiter's daughter Laurie does so in the foreward to "The
> Unprocessed Child".>

I've read "The Unprocessed Child" and also Laurie F.'s website. The
thing is, a child would have to be pretty heartless not to say positive
things in the preface to her own mother's book on her own upbringing.
On her website, what she says sounds more like, "I'm still thinking
about it," so I would call that a QUALIFIED endorsement.


> <There is a new regular column in Life Learning Magazine written by an
> adult
> who grew up unscholed about other adults who were unschooled - kind of
> a
> "where are they now" thing>

I'll check it out. Thanks.

Martha D.

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], Martha Donnelly <msahyun@s...>
wrote:

>
> I've read "The Unprocessed Child" and also Laurie F.'s website. The
> thing is, a child would have to be pretty heartless not to say positive
> things in the preface to her own mother's book on her own upbringing.
> On her website, what she says sounds more like, "I'm still thinking
> about it," so I would call that a QUALIFIED endorsement.

This cracks me up. Sorry, I don't know you, Martha. But I have a mother who has written
over fifty books and I assure you, she wouldn't write a book on how well we turned out,
ask us to write the introduction and then ignore the complaints we have about how we
were raised.

If a mother writes a book like this, on what grounds could she write it if the child in
question opposed it?

I read her website too and what I loved about it is that she wasn't endorsing unschooling,
she was affirming openly the person she's become. Isn't that the point of unschooling? To
become a someone - not to promote an ideology.

And the word "unqualified" is also a red herring. What choice have you ever made that is
"unqualified"?

When asking for the comments of adults who've been unschooled, I'd think you'd want to
hear their honest remarks including qualifications so that you have a realistic picture.
Unschooling isn't for everyone. But for those who have chosen it and enjoy it, there is an
abundance of stories that reveal satisfied, happy family lives. No promises of straight As in
college or even college.

Unschooling is a way of life and a philosophy of learning. You have to see if you share the
philsophy or not.

Julie B

pam sorooshian

Quo Vadis is a weeklong gathering for people interested in creating
strong, supportive community for adult unschoolers and self-educators
<http://www.quovadis-gathering.org/main.html>.


-pam

On Oct 12, 2004, at 2:57 PM, Martha Donnelly wrote:

> If I make search in good
> faith (which I'm just beginning here) and fail to turn up even one
> adult who is really enthusiastic about their unschooled childhood,
> wouldn't that suggest a few bugs in the philosophy?
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

sweetbo3boys

Thank you so much Julie. It helps to hear from someone who has gone
through it, also. I think my son is getting it. I did end up doing
just what you said, I pulled together some of his old curriculum,
and some of the stuff he picked out himself when we were at book
stores, and he worked on it a couple of days, but has ended up doing
what he usually does, writing books and making movies. I am hoping
this was just a passing thing, but whatever, I am always here for
him. One thing I am trying to do is get him involved with other
unschoolers more, that way he is seeing other kids like him. Well,
thanks again. --- In [email protected], "Julie
Bogart" <julie@b...> wrote:
>
>
> > ** My 11 year old keeps asking me to give him a curriculum. He
wants to
> > do school at home. All the subjects, specifically.**
>
> Angela, I'm late on this thread, but I have a son like this. He's
almost thirteen and we
> started unschooling when he was 11. I got great advice at the time.
>
> First of all, some kids measure themselves against others. My son
was worried that if he
> couldn't quantify his progress in a subject, then he wasn't
learning. As a result, I told him
> if he wanted to floow his original curricula, he could. So I would
pull it out in the mornings
> (several different books) and put it on the table. But I told him
that I wasn't going to
> "enforce" his doing it.
>
> This riled him up some. He thought he "should" be pushed to do it.
>
> Over the course of a year, he did less and less of the curricula.
He became more and more
> engaged in his own interests. Still, occasionally he would go to
bed at night anxious that
> he wasn't getting an education.
>
> At the end of last year, I wrote up a narrative of all he had
learned for the state. I read it to
> him so that he could verify ot modify it. By the end, he was
grinning ear to ear. He said,
> "Wow, I really am learning a lot! Could you do this for me each
month so that I can have
> evidence that I really am learning?"
>
> That was the heart of his concern.
>
> And this year, he has chosen to use a math curricula even though
I'm convinced he doesn't
> need it (after not liking the one he used last year... he decided
that for math, he enjoys
> following a program but wanted to try something new. We looked at
programs together
> and bought MathUSee because it appealed to him. He loves it and I
say nothing one way or
> the other.)
>
> Julie B

[email protected]

This may have already come to your attention, I don't know I didn't read
all the E-mails, but there is a program you can take in order to pass the GED.
I think it would be a lot easier to spend a couple of months in that class
preparing, than to constantly hold back the learning experience of Unschooling
because your keeping the GED in mind...
I'm Unschooling my self, and am at the age were I need to start thinking
about collage my self (16 years old) feel free to e-mail me, or have your son
e-mail me, we could probably go over options together if you wish... :-)
good luck either way
Liz
(AtticOfThought@...)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Martha Donnelly

On Oct 12, 2004, at 8:04 PM, Julie Bogart wrote:

>
>
> --- In [email protected], Martha Donnelly
> <msahyun@s...>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I've read "The Unprocessed Child" and also Laurie F.'s website. The
>> thing is, a child would have to be pretty heartless not to say
>> positive
>> things in the preface to her own mother's book on her own upbringing.
>> On her website, what she says sounds more like, "I'm still thinking
>> about it," so I would call that a QUALIFIED endorsement.
>
> <<This cracks me up. Sorry, I don't know you, Martha. But I have a
> mother who has written
> over fifty books and I assure you, she wouldn't write a book on how
> well we turned out,
> ask us to write the introduction and then ignore the complaints we
> have about how we
> were raised.>>

Maybe your mother wouldn't, but it doesn't follow that no mother would.
Besides, a daughter who basically liked her mother and wanted to
support her efforts might decide this wasn't the time to make
complaints.
>
> <<If a mother writes a book like this, on what grounds could she write
> it if the child in
> question opposed it?>>

I'm not saying Laurie opposed her upbringing. I'm saying it sounds like
she may have had reservations about it, but did her best to put a
positive spin on the introduction in order to support her mother.
>
> <<And the word "unqualified" is also a red herring. What choice have
> you ever made that is
> "unqualified"?>>

You're right. I was trying to be brief. I suppose I could have said, "A
more enthusiastic endorsement than I've come across so far" - which
would actually describe the Quo Vadis bios Pam linked me to. Thanks
Pam!
>
> <<When asking for the comments of adults who've been unschooled, I'd
> think you'd want to
> hear their honest remarks including qualifications so that you have a
> realistic picture. >>

I do, I really do. The thing is it seems it's pretty easy to come
across second or third hand accounts of people whose "lives were ruined
by their irresponsible parents." And it's hard to set that kind of
ghost story aside if all you have to go on are the luke warm comments
of twenty-somethings who are in the process of differentiating from
their families and not sure yet what they think about their
childhoods. So I was trying to encourage people to show me real
enthusiasm if it was out there. Among the grown up kids, that is. I
KNOW unschooling parents are enthusiastic, but so are every other kind
of homeschooling parent and quite a few parents of kids in schools.
Sometimes it's nice to hear from the lab rat and not just the
scientist.
>
Come to think of it, if anybody knows where to read a well thought out
critique of what worked and didn't work in somebody's unschooled
childhood that would be really interesting to see too.

Martha D.
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

pam sorooshian

On Oct 21, 2004, at 11:20 AM, Martha Donnelly wrote:

> The thing is it seems it's pretty easy to come
> across second or third hand accounts of people whose "lives were ruined
> by their irresponsible parents."

Is it really? I'd like to see some of those - could you direct me to a
number of them?

-pam

National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/21/04 12:49:28 PM, msahyun@... writes:

<< I'm not saying Laurie opposed her upbringing. I'm saying it sounds like
she may have had reservations about it, but did her best to put a
positive spin on the introduction in order to support her mother.
> >>

If you don't want to unschool, that's okay.
Nobody here will make a commission if you do, so it's not our "job" to sell
you something. What people do here pretty well is share details of their own
lives for the benefit of others who are considering unschooling. We don't do
custom work, in the way of doing someone else's research for them or
defending people who aren't even here, or speculating on the veracity of
recommendations made on websites.

All that business (including reflections on what is read here) is internal to
the reader. Anyone who doesn't believe the moments of unschooling shouldn't
(and probably can't anyway) mess with it at all. Those who live the glorious
moments seem often to find themselves much less concerned with the
hypothetical eventualities.

Anyone who waits for a guarantee of 15 years out from now isn't being
realistic, AND will miss all opportunity to unschool from hesitation while a child is
growing older every day.

-=-So I was trying to encourage people to show me real
enthusiasm if it was out there. -=-

This just really grates on my emotions.
You can certainly look for what you want to find, but the many layers of
antagonism of this sort of statement is hard to bear.

My kids don't write about unschooling one single bit. I'm pretty sure it's
because they were never in school and have been home all their lives, so
unschooling is not a big deal to them, it's not a part of their lives they've
analyzed and discussed. It just IS their lives.

-=-I KNOW unschooling parents are enthusiastic, but so are every other kind
of homeschooling parent and quite a few parents of kids in schools.
Sometimes it's nice to hear from the lab rat and not just the
scientist.-=-

#1 my children are not lab rats.
They are real, whole, un-labbed people.

#2, if you think every other kind of homeschooling parent is as enthusiastic
as unschoolers, maybe that's where your research ought to start. There is a
HUGE undercurrent of burn-out and resentment throughout the Christian
homeschooling movement. They pray about it a lot. They try to keep it secret. There
are VERY many curriculum-using families who are doing irreparable damage to
the relationships between parents and children.

-=-Come to think of it, if anybody knows where to read a well thought out
critique of what worked and didn't work in somebody's unschooled
childhood that would be really interesting to see too.-=-

Heaven forbit someone find you something you claim to want, just for you to
declare it "not well thought out."

You're rejecting more than you're accepting, it seems.

Maybe if you go to google and look up some negative words and homeschooling
or unschooling you'll find the seamy underbelly (or whatever) you're looking
for.

What I see when I meet unschooled kids is a heck of a lot of joy and sparkle.

If you haven't been to an unschooling conference, maybe you should go and
meet some unschoolers in person. Especially with your simple assertion that
every kind of homeschooling parent is enthusiastic, I suspect you are writing
about something pretty foreign and theoretical to you. That's not necessary, as
there are live unschoolers in the world.

I was thinking just this morning about how some people turn on the TV and
wait for the news to see if it's going to rain, instead of looking outside at the
sky and the clouds.

Sandra

pam sorooshian

On Oct 21, 2004, at 11:20 AM, Martha Donnelly wrote:

> Come to think of it, if anybody knows where to read a well thought out
> critique of what worked and didn't work in somebody's unschooled
> childhood that would be really interesting to see too.

My oldest daughter is almost 20. She's a writer and will, I'm sure, be
writing something like this, eventually. But she can't do it now, she's
busy. And, that, I think, is what your problem is with finding such a
thing. We're still really a small group, unschoolers. And so there are
not many grown unschoolers out there. And, of those, how many are going
to be writers. And, of those, how many are going to want to write
specifically about unschooling? They LIVED it - they don't think of it
the way we do - as something - as "something." For most of them, it was
just their lives. They are each unique. They don't necessarily see
themselves as having anything much in common, even, with other
unschooled young adults. Their interests and passions are their lives
and unschooling isn't their interest or their passion.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

queenjane555

--- In [email protected], Martha Donnelly
<msahyun@s...> wrote:

> Of course not, but it would be reassuring. If I make search in
good
> faith (which I'm just beginning here) and fail to turn up even one
> adult who is really enthusiastic about their unschooled childhood,
> wouldn't that suggest a few bugs in the philosophy?

My guess is that unschooled adults arent hanging out on the internet
talking about how unschooling is so great. My guess is that they are
probably out in the world living their lives.

I get the impression that you think most unschooling parents are
really enthusiastic about the "philosophy" of unschooling, and we
thrust it upon our children, without regard for what they want or how
they may turn out. What you will probably find, however, is that the
vast majority of parents here have kids who really WANT to be
unschooled. My son begged me to take him out of school. He often says
to me "I love my life!" He wouldnt change a thing about how he is
"educated" or how we live. He is proud to be an unschooler.

I dont unschool my child because another unschooler has grown up
somewhere and decided they liked their unschooled life. I unschool my
child because it brings him joy, and we are both happier for it. I
unschool my child because he wants me to. I unschool my child because
i believe it is his best shot at growing up happy, healthy, whole
(and yes "well educated")...i am not sure what you are looking for?
Instead of looking for validation from others, look at your child. If
unschooling would make them happy, and you are happy to do it, go for
it. If not, then dont.

Katherine

Martha Donnelly

Alas, no. I was talking about things that came up by the way of
something else in conversation or on other lists, not websites. If
you're really interested I can repeat my collection of "ghost stories."
If you're just wondering how substantial my information is, the answer
is - not at all. I'm on an information hunt, not building up an
argument.

Martha D.

On Oct 21, 2004, at 2:05 PM, pam sorooshian wrote:

> Is it really? I'd like to see some of those - could you direct me to a
> number of them?
>
> -pam
>
> National Home Education Network
> <www.NHEN.org>
> Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
> through information, networking and public relations.
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Martha Donnelly

On Oct 21, 2004, at 2:06 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> <<If you don't want to unschool, that's okay.
> Nobody here will make a commission if you do, so it's not our "job" to
> sell
> you something
> What people do here pretty well is share details of their own
> lives for the benefit of others who are considering unschooling. We
> don't do
> custom work, in the way of doing someone else's research for them or
> defending people who aren't even here, or speculating on the veracity
> of
> recommendations made on websites. >>

Whoa now. I never said any of this was your job. I asked for
information I was interested in in the hopes that someone would give me
a nudge in that direction, if it was easy, not if it was a huge burden.
And I tried to be clear about what I was looking for and why.
>
> <<What people do here pretty well is share details of their own
> lives for the benefit of others who are considering unschooling.>>

That's pretty much what I'm asking for, only I've heard a lot from the
parents now, and I'd like to hear the kids' point of view. IF there are
kids people know of who choose to make that available. I quite
understand that they might have better things to do.
>
> <<Anyone who waits for a guarantee of 15 years out from now isn't being
> realistic, AND will miss all opportunity to unschool from hesitation
> while a child is
> growing older every day.>>

People keep saying "no guarantee" to me when I haven't asked for a
guarantee.
>
> <<-=-So I was trying to encourage people to show me real
> enthusiasm if it was out there. -=-
>
> This just really grates on my emotions.
> You can certainly look for what you want to find, but the many layers
> of
> antagonism of this sort of statement is hard to bear.>>

Well, Sandra, I didn't mean to make your day harder. I thought when I
started this topic that maybe I ought to first run up the white flag
and say "This is Not, Repeat, Not, an Attack. Nobody needs to get out
the long guns and run me off." Then I thought, nah, that's just being
paranoid and starting the conversation in an antagonistic way. But
maybe I should have after all.

I assure you, I'm not antagonistic. I'm curious, open and want to
gather all the information I can and think about it carefully (in fact,
critically, if that's not too war-like a word). I'm sorry if my
language doesn't successfully convey my attitude. Perhaps it would help
to imagine that I was your best friend speaking in a gentle,
well-meaning tone.

I'm also aware that the relevant information is not degrees or grade
point averages, but people's happiness and level of satisfaction with
their lives.
>
> <<My kids don't write about unschooling one single bit. I'm pretty
> sure it's
> because they were never in school and have been home all their lives,
> so
> unschooling is not a big deal to them, it's not a part of their lives
> they've
> analyzed and discussed. It just IS their lives.>>

This is why it would be interesting to hear from people who have been
grown up long enough to think about it.
>
>
> <<-=-I KNOW unschooling parents are enthusiastic, but so are every
> other kind
> of homeschooling parent and quite a few parents of kids in schools.
> Sometimes it's nice to hear from the lab rat and not just the
> scientist.-=-
>
> #1 my children are not lab rats.
> They are real, whole, un-labbed people.>>

Sorry, I didn't mean to dehumanize your children or mine or anyone
else's.
>
> <<#2, if you think every other kind of homeschooling parent is as
> enthusiastic
> as unschoolers, maybe that's where your research ought to start.
> There is a
> HUGE undercurrent of burn-out and resentment throughout the Christian
> homeschooling movement. They pray about it a lot. They try to keep
> it secret. There
> are VERY many curriculum-using families who are doing irreparable
> damage to
> the relationships between parents and children.>>

Now that IS interesting, and I didn't know it. But since I was never in
any possible universe going to be a Christian Homeschooler, I will skip
that branch of research.
>
> <<-=-Come to think of it, if anybody knows where to read a well
> thought out
> critique of what worked and didn't work in somebody's unschooled
> childhood that would be really interesting to see too.-=-
>
> Heaven forbit someone find you something you claim to want, just for
> you to
> declare it "not well thought out."
>
> You're rejecting more than you're accepting, it seems.>>

By "well thought out," I mean that the person meant to sit down and
think for a while about unschooling in particular and wasn't just
randomly reminiscing. I didn't realize they were fighting words.
>
> <<Maybe if you go to google and look up some negative words and
> homeschooling
> or unschooling you'll find the seamy underbelly (or whatever) you're
> looking
> for.>>

Now, why is it that you suppose that I'm looking for a "seamy
underbelly" when all I've asked for is positive reports?
>
> <<If you haven't been to an unschooling conference, maybe you should
> go and
> meet some unschoolers in person. Especially with your simple
> assertion that
> every kind of homeschooling parent is enthusiastic, I suspect you are
> writing
> about something pretty foreign and theoretical to you. That's not
> necessary, as
> there are live unschoolers in the world.>>

Perhaps I should have said "every kind of homeschooling parent who
communicates in print." I've been to a couple of workshops - in fact I
met you at the one in Chicago- and to the Wisconsin Homeschooling
Conference. And I read a lot of books, which
ARE more abstract than real life, but one gets information where one
can. I'm certainly grateful to people who are willing to share first
hand experiences - the more the better.

I could enthuse about perfect moments my children and I have had or
really interesting things they said, and maybe I will someday. I could
post my own thoughts on unschooling, and maybe someday I'll do that,
but just at the moment I'm trying to satisfy my curiosity and expand my
data base as much as I can.

Peace!

Martha D.

Martha Donnelly

That's pretty much how I thought things were, but there didn't seem to
be any harm in asking.

Martha D.


On Oct 21, 2004, at 2:18 PM, pam sorooshian wrote:

>
>
> <<On Oct 21, 2004, at 11:20 AM, Martha Donnelly wrote:
>
>> Come to think of it, if anybody knows where to read a well thought out
>> critique of what worked and didn't work in somebody's unschooled
>> childhood that would be really interesting to see too.
>
> My oldest daughter is almost 20. She's a writer and will, I'm sure, be
> writing something like this, eventually. But she can't do it now, she's
> busy. And, that, I think, is what your problem is with finding such a
> thing. We're still really a small group, unschoolers. And so there are
> not many grown unschoolers out there. And, of those, how many are going
> to be writers. And, of those, how many are going to want to write
> specifically about unschooling? They LIVED it - they don't think of it
> the way we do - as something - as "something." For most of them, it was
> just their lives. They are each unique. They don't necessarily see
> themselves as having anything much in common, even, with other
> unschooled young adults. Their interests and passions are their lives
> and unschooling isn't their interest or their passion.
>
> -pam>>

pam sorooshian

On Oct 21, 2004, at 1:38 PM, Martha Donnelly wrote:

> Alas, no. I was talking about things that came up by the way of
> something else in conversation or on other lists, not websites. If
> you're really interested I can repeat my collection of "ghost stories."
> If you're just wondering how substantial my information is, the answer
> is - not at all. I'm on an information hunt, not building up an
> argument.

You said: <The thing is it seems it's pretty easy to come
across second or third hand accounts of people whose "lives were ruined
by their irresponsible parents." >

It doesn't seem that way to me. I have never come across any accounts
of people who claim their lives were ruined by unschooling. That's why
I'm asking you to pass those along to us. Don't you think that would be
of interest to us?

Could you copy and paste some samples of the information you've tracked
down, here?

I hear LOTS of people looking, from outside, at unschooling and saying,
"You're going to RUIN those kids." Or, "My friend's neighbor is
homeschooling but they never teach them anything."

So what? They don't understand. Big surprise. But if you have
information that goes beyond that, bring it on.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Martha Donnelly

On Oct 21, 2004, at 5:14 PM, pam sorooshian wrote:

>
>
> On Oct 21, 2004, at 1:38 PM, Martha Donnelly wrote:
>
>> Alas, no. I was talking about things that came up by the way of
>> something else in conversation or on other lists, not websites. If
>> you're really interested I can repeat my collection of "ghost
>> stories."
>> If you're just wondering how substantial my information is, the answer
>> is - not at all. I'm on an information hunt, not building up an
>> argument.
>
> You said: <The thing is it seems it's pretty easy to come
> across second or third hand accounts of people whose "lives were ruined
> by their irresponsible parents." >
>
> It doesn't seem that way to me. I have never come across any accounts
> of people who claim their lives were ruined by unschooling. That's why
> I'm asking you to pass those along to us. Don't you think that would be
> of interest to us?
>
> Could you copy and paste some samples of the information you've tracked
> down, here?
>
> I hear LOTS of people looking, from outside, at unschooling and saying,
> "You're going to RUIN those kids." Or, "My friend's neighbor is
> homeschooling but they never teach them anything."
>
> So what? They don't understand. Big surprise. But if you have
> information that goes beyond that, bring it on.

Well, not MUCH beyond that. I did say it was second and third hand
information and not at all substantial. I think it's easy for you to
dismiss that kind of stuff because you have a broad base of experience
with successful unschooling. I don't; I'm trying to broaden it.

I really am going to run up that white flag now: This is not and never
was an attack! I mentioned the "ghost stories," because I figured you
all must have heard the same kind of thing from your friends and
neighbors and would see where I was coming from.

Still, since you ask, here are the three closest to first hand that I
remember:

Someone wrote into our local homeschooling list asking for information
on getting a young relative she was taking in "caught up" because
his mother "wasn't really homeschooling him like she said she was."

A woman I met at a dance who had seven unschooled children described
one who was apparently very angry with his upbringing and had therefore
gone off to join the army, where he had terrible experiences. The
others were apparently fine, but the conversation never got far enough
for me to hear much about them.

On a list I belonged to earlier this summer, a young person wrote in
describing her dissatisfaction with her unschooled childhood and her
great relief at finally getting to spend her senior year in high
school. She seemed very disgruntled with her parents, could not believe
they thought she could make educational decisions for herself and used
the phrase "an endless search for structure" to describe her childhood.
There was some speculation on the list that the post was phony and the
person never wrote back.

And, O yes, while it's not in the ruined life category, a friend from
church, whose children are now in Montessori School has said several
times: "Don't do it the way I did, they never even learned their times
tables."

Martha D.

[email protected]

-=-Well, Sandra, I didn't mean to make your day harder. I thought when I
started this topic that maybe I ought to first run up the white flag
and say "This is Not, Repeat, Not, an Attack. Nobody needs to get out
the long guns and run me off." Then I thought, nah, that's just being
paranoid and starting the conversation in an antagonistic way. But
maybe I should have after all.-=-


Maybe.
In case I hadn't put this link out already, this leads to some other sites:

http://sandradodd.com/teens

-=-I assure you, I'm not antagonistic. I'm curious, open and want to
gather all the information I can and think about it carefully (in fact,
critically, if that's not too war-like a word). -=-

Critical thinking is great. But the idea that not finding an unqualified
glowing account of unschooling by an adult unschooling would indicate that
unschooling wasn't optimal didn't seem to be valid.

-=-I'm also aware that the relevant information is not degrees or grade
point averages, but people's happiness and level of satisfaction with
their lives.-=-

At which point in life?
What age? 21? 25? 30?
First out on one's own? Married? Review as children reach schoolage?

-=-This is why it would be interesting to hear from people who have been
grown up long enough to think about it.
-=-

Peter Kowalki (already named here) and his wife, Mae (who has a website:
http://mae.kowalke.info/cover_0101.shtml )

-=-By "well thought out," I mean that the person meant to sit down and
think for a while about unschooling in particular and wasn't just
randomly reminiscing. I didn't realize they were fighting words.
-=-

I don't know of any analysis of unschooling itself written by adult
unschoolers. Just random reminiscing. Even the video Peter Kowalke made called "Grown
Without Schooling" is random reminisces.

I think all autobiographies are random (or sometimes more organized)
reminisces. That isn't usually considered a bad thing.

-=- I've been to a couple of workshops - in fact I
met you at the one in Chicago--=-

No older unschoolers were there, though. Only nursing babies.

Even when there's a teen or young adult panel at a conference, though, the
people who speak were interested in a conference, and willing to spend hours to
days hanging out with other unschoolers. I haven't heard many negatives in
such situations. I guess the kids who hate unschooling don't go to conferences.

-=-I could enthuse about perfect moments my children and I have had or
really interesting things they said, and maybe I will someday. I could
post my own thoughts on unschooling-=-

I hope you will!

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

TreeGoddess

On Oct 21, 2004, at 7:47 PM, Martha Donnelly wrote:

> [Someone wrote into our local homeschooling list asking for
> information on getting a young relative she was taking in
> "caught up" because his mother "wasn't really homeschooling
> him like she said she was."]

Was unschooling specifically mentioned? Perhaps the child was being
neglected and not unschooling at all. Even if the child *was* being
unschooled . . . did the taker-in understand the concept of unschooling
or just saw the lack of a curriculum and deemed it "wasn't really
homeschooling . . ."?

> [A woman I met at a dance who had seven unschooled children
> described one who was apparently very angry with his upbringing
> and had therefore gone off to join the army, where he had terrible
> experiences. The others were apparently fine, but the conversation
> never got far enough for me to hear much about them.]

Had this boy always been unschooled or was he in school first and then
taken home to unschool -- maybe even against his will? Maybe there
were lots of other parenting issues that the boy had problems with and
*not* with unschooling in particular. Additionally, this young man
then joined the army (perhaps to see the world or for GI bill?) and
then didn't like his experience. Maybe he hated the mindlessness of
some tasks and the regimented days.

> [On a list I belonged to earlier this summer, a young person
> wrote in describing her dissatisfaction with her unschooled
> childhood ... <snip> There was some speculation on the list that
> the post was phony and the person never wrote back.]

Doesn't sound like much "proof" against unschooling.

> [And, O yes, while it's not in the ruined life category, a friend
> from church, whose children are now in Montessori School has
> said several times: "Don't do it the way I did, they never even
> learned their times tables."]

Oh, horrors! Shoot, I had the times tables crammed into my head for
*years* and I don't remember them all and I <gasp> need to use math to
figure them out rather than recalling "the times table" -- or just use
the calculator! ;)

I'm not being argumentative either . . . just making counterpoints and
throwing out other possible factors that were missing in the stories
you've heard. Man, if people only knew about my life experiences via
my mother running her mouth people would get a completely different
idea about me! I don't put much merit in second and third hand
stories. : )

-Tracy-