Lisa

here's a question for y'all..

who out there unschools and doesn't have a tv at all in their house?

since the birth of our first child, we've had a tv. we watched
moderately when she was young, but as time passed and finances
changed, we watched less and cut the cable (therefore, having much
less to watch.) none of my kids have ever watched tv much, mostly
because there wasn't much, beyond saturday morning cartoons, that
appealed to them. they watched game shows, martha stewart (liked her
crafty stuff and recipes), and reality tv stuff. not every day and
not very much. they also liked computer games,dvd's, and other stuff
on the computer, but spent most of the day playing freely, reading
stories with me, and joining in on my daily activities.

this summer, we lived for 3 months out in the woods with no
electricty, hence no tv. they never got bored or whined for tv. in
august, we moved back to town and were so sad to find that we got
absolutely no channels with our antenna (as opposed to the 3-4 we got
in before) and we didn't want to miss out on the olympics. we ended
up finding a super cheap trial offer with a cable company, so we
decided we'd go with it.

the kids were delighted to find all the programming directed at them
and spent a ton of time watching, which was unusual for them. it was
convenient for them to be occupied at first since we were so consumed
with the process of unpacking, but as days passed and we were more
settled, i started to worry and restrict them a bit. i discovered
this list and started to critically examine why i was having such a
hard time accepting their new found hobby. i figured they were
undoing all the damage i'd done in restricting them and it was a
novelty that would fade with time and become a more balanced activity.

fast forward a bit to current life (7-8 weeks later.) the kids wake
up and watch tv immediately...there has been no exception to this,
not one day! they continue to watch all day long and into the night,
falling asleep watching. i try during the day to watch with them and
offer different activities that they've adored in the past when they
seem restless, but not to much avail. they don't want to go outside,
have a hard time recognizing hunger cues, argue and fight over
control of the station and/or remote, blow up if i suggest watching a
more adult show (even when i give them advance notice), etc. my
oldest (6 1/2) expresses that she's sad she doesn't have anyone to
play with, but when i offer ideas (even the homeschool group
gatherings she's always enjoyed), she can't disconnect herself to go
without me turning the tv off. she's also picked up a lot of mean
stuff from shows...calling names like *dummy* and making fun of her
brother when he makes a mistake. she likes shows like rugrats where
there's a character that acts like that and finds it funny. we talk
about why it's not nice, but it still comes out. she's become even
more impulsive that way. my middle child (4) is the one that
concerns me the most, though. he won't leave the television to even
go to the bathroom. he's afraid he'll miss something and i can't
*pause* the show. i try to get him to go during commercials, but he
thinks they're fun too. and he doesn't seem to communicate about
anything but what he saw on tv. his attention span is so short that
he rudely interrupts me in the middle of a sentence saying, *so what?
* my youngest (2) seems oblivious to the hubbub. she and i read
stories together, play with dollies and train sets, play hide and go
seek, wash dishes together, etc. just like we all used to do. it's
hard for me not to mourn this...i feel like i've lost my kids in tv
world!

i understand now that watching tv isn't terribly detrimental to all
kids, but i wonder how their behavior can be explained. i've had it
happen twice now that i've gotten fed up and unplugged the tv. to my
shock and surprise, the kids were instantly remarkably pleasant and
creative in what we should do. we played for hours, baked stuff,
played games outside, they joyously helped out with chores like
hanging the wash, etc. once i turned the tv off to go on an outing,
they were fine, but when i left them to their own devices and made
them aware of when we needed to go and offered help in getting ready,
they didn't move. i got, *ok, mom. in a minute. oh, well...i wanna
watch one more show.* when that show's done, they want just one
more, etc. i'm at a loss here. i'm trying to convince dh that this
change is so important for our family, but what's actually happening
is making me want to pull my hair out!

the same sort of thing is happening with letting go of the whole
concept of good food before bad food idea. we're buying more junk
food than we ever have before, scarfing it, regretting we did, and
then wishing we had more money to buy more junk. we've always kind
of had it where we didn't buy sweets much, and if we had them, they
were to be kind of rationed out. with the restraint gone, it's
almost like competetion...who can get to it the fastest kind of
thing. i've gained a bit of weight and am eating more of everything
with the stress of everything going on. this certainly doesn't
help. the kids are happy about being able to have what they want,
but are neglecting to make the accompanying good choices like they
used to. i'm very loose on what could be considered good food and am
looking over larger spans of time, but it's really not very good. we
can't afford to present a ton of different options foodwise on our
very small budget, so i'm starting to wonder what's going to happen
here. my middle child is again the one i'm most worrying
about...he's got food sensitivities to dairy and is now so covered in
eczema that he's uncomfortble and itching all the time. when i talk
to him about why he's itchy, he understands, but when he has a chance
to eat it again, he disregards his reaction with statements like *i
like to be itchy.* what the heck?

*sigh*

so i'm extrememly frustrated and wishing we could have had the sense
to start this at birth. though that's not going to help us now. can
anyone who's started out later in life relate to our experience. am
i just being impatient? i don't feel like i've got unrealistic
expectations...i knew the kids would eat a lot of junk food and watch
a lot of tv for a while. but i didn't think that would be pretty
much all they do. all prejudice aside, this is certainly not
healthy. is it a natural response to letting go of restrictions? or
am i just going about all of this completely wrong? or have i just
not waited long enough?

in need of reassurance despite this not being a support group :)
lisa

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/4/2004 7:39:27 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
ecotopian@... writes:
his attention span is so short that
he rudely interrupts me in the middle of a sentence saying, *so what?*
That's not about attention span, I don't think.


If you record their favorite shows, then you can pause them.

If you bring snacks, they don't need to "recognize hunger cues." (I'm
guessing you meant by that that they don't turn the TV off to go and eat, but I
might be guessing wrong.)

There are unschoolers who don't allow TV, I'm sure.
This list mentions SongeBob Squarepants right in its description, so this
isn't their best hangout, I suppose.

-=-when i left them to their own devices and made
them aware of when we needed to go and offered help in getting ready,
they didn't move. i got, *ok, mom. in a minute. oh, well...i wanna
watch one more show.*-=-

Stick a tape in and say "We can watch this one when we get back." They might
not bother, but it gives them another option, another choice.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Hill

**we moved back to town and were so sad to find that we got
absolutely no channels with our antenna (as opposed to the 3-4 we got
in before) and we didn't want to miss out on the olympics. we ended
up finding a super cheap trial offer with a cable company, so we
decided we'd go with it.**

We started a teaser-priced satellite dish package exactly a year ago.
(I remember my husband signed up for it during the baseball playoffs.)

We had lived in a new house with fewer channels than we were used to for
9 months. We had about 4 good channels and 4 fuzzy channels, and we had
been used to having more than that. So we were feeling fairly deprived
of TV before we started. I have one kid and two TVs. Both of us
watched TV heavily for a couple of months. He continued to seem
strongly interested in staying home and watching TV for about six
months. (And I was pretty scared that he would be "hooked" forever.)
Then the number of cartoons watched every day seemed to go down and I
noticed him being fairly selective about his choices.

Because there are no siblings, the dynamics for agreeing what to watch
are different. (Since my husband is only home two days a week, I mostly
defer to him and figure it's his "turn" when he's here.) It may take
*longer* for your kids to absorb "as much TV as they want", since they
do have to compete with each other over what show to watch. But they
could get sick of TV sooner, if they are sitting there watching stuff
they don't like because someone else selected it.

We do have a TiVo-like recorder that makes it very convenient to record
anything and watch it later. I really like having this. You can
apparently buy these at electronic stores, not just get them from the
cable company. (This was a surprise to me.)

Betsy

Seth W Bartels

>his attention span is so short that
>he rudely interrupts me in the middle of a sentence saying, >*so what?*

>That's not about attention span, I don't think.

well, heck...i don't know what it is! i tell him how it hurts my
feelings to be talked to like that. he doesn't want me to interrupt his
tv watching. but there isn't a time when he's not engrossed. even if he
is removed from the set, it seems to always be on his mind. i can sort
of relate to this. when i went back to school (com. college), i only
took classes that were intensely interesting to me, not in pursuit of a
degree. each time i got into a new one, it was hard for me to exist
without somehow relating everything to my new passion. still...it's
rude. and hurtful. i ask him to be mindful of his words, model nice
speaking, etc. he doesn't seem to care. it's distressing.



>If you record their favorite shows, then you can pause them.

we don't have a working vcr anymore. i wish we did.

>If you bring snacks, they don't need to "recognize hunger >cues." (I'm
>guessing you meant by that that they don't turn the TV off to >go and
eat, but I
>might be guessing wrong.)

i bring them food, but they don't usually eat until they're starving.
they'll forget about it sitting there until it's too cold or too crusty
or change their mind. i offer to warm it up, but they just scrunch up
their noses or say they're not hungry. the seem to get annoyed when i
bring them food when they're not hungry. or if i remind them that it's
sitting there.

>Stick a tape in and say "We can watch this one when we get >back." They
might
>not bother, but it gives them another option, another choice.

that's what was easier about watching dvd's and videos on vcr when we had
one. they didn't get freaked out that it would just be gone. they have
certain shows that they love and don't want to miss a single second. but
even with shows that they don't particularly love, they'll still watch it
over much else. my daughter keeps coming up with schemes of *i'll watch
tow more shows and then we'll turn it off. i'm getting sick of tv.* but
the time comes, and her brother didn't make the agreement, so it stays on
and instead of moving on, she'll sit down again or try and muscle him
away from the tv. she's gotten so impulsive lately and controlling about
it. if she gets frustrated, she'll scream or hit or pinch..even her baby
sister who used to be of limits. it's alarming. i get in between them
immediately, but it doesn't seem to keep i from happening. i can't
separate in my head if tis is really related to tv or something bigger.
i'm just twisted in knots and all sorts of confused.

lisa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Danielle Conger

We do have a TiVo-like recorder that makes it very convenient to record
anything and watch it later. I really like having this. You can
apparently buy these at electronic stores, not just get them from the
cable company. (This was a surprise to me.)
===========


Dh bought one for our computer called an All-in-Wonder. It works great,
and basically turns the computer into a tv with tivo device. He's been
recording all of the Teen Titans for the kids. And, he's just gotten a
DVD burner for the computer, so as soon as he installs it, we'll be able
to burn DVDs of all their favorite shows.

It's really great to have a techno-geek for a husband. I highly
recommend it. ;)

--Danielle

http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html


>
>

TreeGoddess

On Oct 4, 2004, at 9:04 PM, Lisa wrote:

> [who out there unschools and doesn't have a tv at all in their
> house?]

Not me. ;)

> [this summer, we lived for 3 months out in the woods with no
> electricty, hence no tv.]

Bummer. I adore "roughing it" but after a week even I might be a
little bored and would like to watch a movie or something. My DH (who
hates camping) wouldn't last two days without a little tv time.

> [the kids were delighted to find all the programming directed at them
> and spent a ton of time watching, which was unusual for them.]

New shows they've never seen can be exciting! Plus they may be "making
up for lost time" having been without the option to watch it for three
months. KWIM?

> [i figured they were undoing all the damage i'd done in restricting
> them
> and it was a novelty that would fade with time and become a more
> balanced
> activity.]

Balanced for whom? What you find to be a good balance for -yourself-
may not be the same as what your children will choose for themselves.

> [fast forward a bit to current life (7-8 weeks later.) the kids wake
> up and watch tv immediately...there has been no exception to this,
> not one day! they continue to watch all day long and into the night,
> falling asleep watching.]

Are you getting out of the house much? Have you set up a game or set
out art supplies or playdoh before they wake up? My children watch TV
daily - some days more some days less - but they almost never ask to go
home to watch TV if we're out doing something fun. They haven't come
downstairs in the morning and bypassed the playdoh or paints to make a
bee-line to the TV. That's just our experience though . . . YMMV. :)

> [i understand now that watching tv isn't terribly detrimental to all
> kids, but i wonder how their behavior can be explained. i've had it
> happen twice now that i've gotten fed up and unplugged the tv.]

Ah ha! Perhaps they're "gorging" themselves on TV because you've been
known to take it away from them in the past. They might be trying to
get all they can *now* before Mama takes it back again. Once they're
*sure* that you're not going to unplug the television it may not hold
as much draw for them. However, it may take quite a while for them to
finish making up for missed viewing AND to trust that you're not going
to unplug it again or go live without electricity any time soon.
Expect that it will be this way again after your next extended visit to
your cabin and that it is OK. :)

-Tracy-

Seth W Bartels

>I have one kid and two TVs. Both of us
>watched TV heavily for a couple of months. He continued to >seem
>strongly interested in staying home and watching TV for about >six
>months. (And I was pretty scared that he would be "hooked" >forever.)
>Then the number of cartoons watched every day seemed to go >down and I
>noticed him being fairly selective about his choices.

i watched more at first too, but now i'm annoyed. i'm not much of a tv
fan. i'm glad to hear that this is to be expected, but i worry about my
ability to handle it for so long. our house is very small and i'd like
to keep the tv in a comfortable place for them to watch (so as to avoid
sending yet another negative message about watching it), but it's smack
dab in the middle of it. i can't go anywhere to have quiet. not when i
am at the computer, or washing dishes, down in the basement painting or
washing clothes, even when i'm trying to go to sleep at night. i get
migraines a lot and am generally very sensitive to extraneous noise and
stimulation. i don't even know how to begin talking to the kids about my
issues without causing more problems. they don't seem affected by it.
they'll turn a cd on right along with the tv. i don't know where to go
from here. i want to be cool about it, but it's making me nuts. it
takes everything i have to keep myself from sneaking in the middle of the
night, taking the set into the road and running over it with our bus. :)

lisa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Seth W Bartels

>Bummer. I adore "roughing it" but after a week even I might >be a
>little bored and would like to watch a movie or something. My >DH (who
>hates camping) wouldn't last two days without a little tv >time.

it wasn't a bummer for any of us. we lived in a tent on our friend's
land with their family (including two kids) and it was a terrific
experience. i don't think being removed from electricity is negative at
all. in fact, it was a divine thing to be so in tune with ourselves and
nature. the kids didn't whine at all. even when we'd come into town,
watching tv wasn't the first thing they went to. mostly they'd keep
playing.


New shows they've never seen can be exciting! Plus they may be "making
up for lost time" having been without the option to watch it for three
months. KWIM?

yes. but i think it's more about them never having access to kid
shows/cartoons before. this stuff on cable's available 24/7. before,
there were natural limits and it helped them regulate themselves.

>Balanced for whom? What you find to be a good balance for ->yourself-
>may not be the same as what your children will choose for >themselves.

i recognize that they like tv and i don't. that's cool. i wasn't
prepared for just how much they would love it. and how many extra
problems it was going to let loose in our daily lives. i still think
it's unbalanced for anyone to wake up and go to sleep watching tv, with
not much of anything else going on in between. especially when they're
able to articulate that they want to do something else, but can't pull
themselves away.

>Are you getting out of the house much?

no...they fight about turning the tv off to go anywhere. it's
aggravating to hear over and over that they don't want to go. i don't
know what to even suggest we go do anymore. and i need some other social
stimulation, even if they don't. i shouldn't be resentful about this,
but i am to a certain degree.

>Have you set up a game or set
>out art supplies or playdoh before they wake up?

i am much more active this way than ever before. they used to direct me
to their needs and wants, now i'm trying to come up with stuff for them.
it's getting tiring and doesn't seem to do much good. even if they
express interest in something, they lose interest quickly. i'm left with
a huge mess again and again and i end up feeling like i shouldn't have
even suggested it.

>Ah ha! Perhaps they're "gorging" themselves on TV because >you've been
>known to take it away from them in the past.

you may be on to something here.

>However, it may take quite a while for them to
>finish making up for missed viewing AND to trust that you're >not going
>to unplug it again

and how am i to stay sane in the mean time or deal with the plethora of
negative behaviors that have resulted from this drastic change? i feel
like i'm losing it! i don't want to go back to calling the shots and
being the gruesome enforcer of RULES. so i need to find some proactive
coping mechanisms.

>or go live without electricity any time soon.

there are plenty of wonderful people all over the world who exist and
thrive without a tv, computer, electricity or even running water &
plumbing. and i'm sure their children are happy competent people as
well. i think it was a gift what we did this summer and only wish we
could extend the experience into our life now. we had to come back to
town because of financial problems. that is the bummer to me.


thanks for all of your wonderful advice, insight and support!
lisa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/5/2004 11:09:13 AM Central Standard Time,
ecotopian@... writes:

>If you record their favorite shows, then you can pause them.

we don't have a working vcr anymore. i wish we did.



~~~

_www.freecycle.org_ (http://www.freecycle.org)

You really should go and see if there's a list in your area and ask for a
vcr.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/5/04 10:52:19 AM, tuckervill2@... writes:

<< we don't have a working vcr anymore. i wish we did. >>

I bought a new one from Amazon on special for $50, but you can get used ones
less, and new ones for $70.

Visit to a counsellor costs more than that.
Lawyer visit costs more than that.

If you can buy peace and happiness for under $100 it might be worth doing.

If you were sending your kids to school you would have spent more than that
on required supplies, various little fees, PE stuff, new clothes and a cool
backpack.

If you were doing a curriculum, that would be hundreds of dollars per child
per year.

Sandra

Seth W Bartels

>Visit to a counsellor costs more than that.
>Lawyer visit costs more than that.

i understand that utterly and completely. still doesn't make it true
that i have that amount of money. or that a vcr would solve all (or any)
of my problems. i remember my husband saying that with the cable system
that we have and our tv being the one i bought for myself when i was in
6th grade (1991?), a vcr has nowhere to plug in, even if i had one,
because the technology has changed so much.

>If you can buy peace and happiness for under $100 it might be >worth
doing.

first of all, i don't think you can buy peace and happiness for any
amount...it's something that comes from inside a person regardless of
income. secondly, my husband is a school bus driver and is going back to
school at the same time. he gets paid around $250-$300 every two weeks.
our rent alone is $375/month. these are the facts. we live extremely
frugally. i'm pretty sure (unless things change dramatically between now
and a month from now) that we won't even be able to afford cable because
our trial period will be over (it's been around $8 for the first 2 mos.,
$30 something normally.) i don't want to shelter or restrict them from
media, but i'm not sure i have much of a choice. we have a dvd player on
our computer that we use to watch stuff from the library and play games.
so it's not like they have nothing.

>If you were sending your kids to school you would have spent >more than
that
>on required supplies, various little fees, PE stuff, new >clothes and a
cool
>backpack.

but being as low income as we are, we'd surely be relying on government
programs and donations.

>If you were doing a curriculum, that would be hundreds of >dollars per
child
>per year.

i know. i can't believe how much money is spent on things that make no
sense. but it's not between unschooling or not that i'm struggling.
it's the tv more specifically. i think we just need to sit together and
talk sometime when everyone's receptive and brainstorm some solutions to
these problems. i think i'm taking on more stress than i need to just
*because i'm the mama and it's my job to make everything work*. my mom
was a huge codependant martyr and i've taken her lead. that's the bigger
issue i think. if we end up being able to buy some sort of recording
device in the future, i surely will go ahead and get it. i'm not opposed
to the idea. just tight on the money front right now (and a long ways
back.)

i appreciate your suggestions :)
lisa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Seth W Bartels

now that's an idea...i've been subscribed to a couple of those for a
while now. more out of curiosity than anything. i don't have any close
(the closest are about 2-3 hours away.) but you ever know. the universe
seems to bring us things when we need them most and put our energy out to
receive them. :) never thought about being gifted a vcr, but heck, it'd
make my son a lot more content...and that's a lot. :)

lisa

>_www.freecycle.org_ (http://www.freecycle.org)

>You really should go and see if there's a list in your area >and ask for
a
>vcr.

>Karen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nisha

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 10/5/04 10:52:19 AM, tuckervill2@a... writes:
>
> << we don't have a working vcr anymore. i wish we did. >>
>
> I bought a new one from Amazon on special for $50, but you can get
used ones
> less, and new ones for $70.
>


You can get a free one off of freecycle,really cheap ones that work
at a thrift store, or pawn shop, and basic ones , new,on sale at
walmart, target or just about anywhere else for about $25-30.
Nisha

Fetteroll

on 10/4/04 9:04 PM, Lisa at ecotopian@... wrote:

> the same sort of thing is happening with letting go of the whole
> concept of good food before bad food idea. we're buying more junk
> food than we ever have before, scarfing it, regretting we did, and
> then wishing we had more money to buy more junk.

I think when many of us describe not putting limits on kids food choices
we're picturing something different than what many people end up getting
from our words.

Keep buying the food you think is healthy. Make the meals you think are
healthy. But ask the kids what they'd like from the store and buy it. Don't
make your home a place where kids can open the cupboard and see every choice
in the grocery available! ;-)

The transition period after controls can be hard because kids will often
want everything that has been limited. And they may want a lot of it because
they feel insecure that it won't always be available.

So, as Sandra often suggests, instead of removing the limits, just say yes
more often. So instead of saying or implying "Buy anything and as much as
you want." Just say yes if they ask for something.

I know *I* had problems bringing snacky food into the house. The way I kept
from eating it previously was by not buying it. So if I went to a party
where there were chips and candy and cookies, I'd eat lots of whatever I
didn't let myself have at home. But once I turned my thinking around and
gave myself permission to buy and eat that kind of food, and told myself
that, yes, when that bag was done I could buy another bag or a dozen bags
more, I felt less desperate to finish it off and can actually pass it by if
it's sitting out.

> we've always kind
> of had it where we didn't buy sweets much, and if we had them, they
> were to be kind of rationed out. with the restraint gone, it's
> almost like competetion...who can get to it the fastest kind of
> thing.

That's a reaction to rationing. And it happens not just to kids but to
adults. There are many adults who were affected by the rationing of WWII.
The fear is that despite how plentiful something is at the moment, that
there will come a time when it will become limited again so the best
strategy is to grab as much as possible while it's available.

I think that's true of TV too (and got covered pretty well in other people's
posts.)

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/6/2004 6:01:33 AM Central Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:

But once I turned my thinking around and
gave myself permission to buy and eat that kind of food, and told myself
that, yes, when that bag was done I could buy another bag or a dozen bags
more, I felt less desperate to finish it off and can actually pass it by if
it's sitting out.



~~~

When we sold Camp Fire candy at a table outside of Lowe's, we didn't put
more than a couple of boxes of each kind out on the table. I experimented with
how much we could effect sales by putting more or less on display. When
there was less, it seemed to me people bought more, and would ask if we had more
under the table.. When there was more, people would only buy one box, or not
buy any at all.

We created an artificial scarcity. I think it's human nature to hoard when
the perception is that supplies are scarce.

Karen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

NB Garrett

Hey, thanks for that tip! I'm going to use it when we sell Girl Scout
cookies this year.

NB
----- Original Message -----
From: <tuckervill2@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] unschoolers without tv's?



~~

When we sold Camp Fire candy at a table outside of Lowe's, we didn't put
more than a couple of boxes of each kind out on the table. I experimented
with
how much we could effect sales by putting more or less on display. When
there was less, it seemed to me people bought more, and would ask if we had
more
under the table.. When there was more, people would only buy one box, or
not
buy any at all.

We created an artificial scarcity. I think it's human nature to hoard when
the perception is that supplies are scarce.

Karen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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In a message dated 10/6/04 5:01:30 AM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< The way I kept
from eating it previously was by not buying it. So if I went to a party
where there were chips and candy and cookies, I'd eat lots of whatever I
didn't let myself have at home. But once I turned my thinking around and
gave myself permission to buy and eat that kind of food, and told myself
that, yes, when that bag was done I could buy another bag or a dozen bags
more, I felt less desperate to finish it off and can actually pass it by if
it's sitting out. >>

Hey, I hadn't thought of that!

I used to eat lots of party food too. Now I don't.
My kids never have.

Sandra

Laura Johnson

~~~

>>>When we sold Camp Fire candy at a table outside of Lowe's, we didn't put
more than a couple of boxes of each kind out on the table. I experimented with
how much we could effect sales by putting more or less on display. When
there was less, it seemed to me people bought more, and would ask if we had more
under the table.. When there was more, people would only buy one box, or not
buy any at all.

>>>We created an artificial scarcity. I think it's human nature to hoard when
the perception is that supplies are scarce.

That is interesting. I run a business, and I often tell people, I'm booked even when I take a weekend off here and there. They want what they can't have, so they are likely to book sooner. I will also pass it along to Scouts I know.

Also, during our recent hurricanes, I found myself buying so much that we didn't need even if we were hit. And lots of sweets and snack type foods. Don't get me started on our soup surplus. Then, after the storm, we would go to the store to replace everything we threw out and there was no dairy or cold food anywhere. The other day, I bought two gallons of milk and extra yogurt. Weird. There is no current hurricane (yet) and no shortages now. The sense of shortage does create a need. Most people I've talked to have done something similar. The effects seem to last a while. We are all stocking up on things, but don't really need to.
Laura J

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Seth W Bartels

>I think when many of us describe not putting limits on kids >food
choices
>we're picturing something different than what many people end >up
getting
>from our words.

i suspect that it's hard to get an accurate picture when we already have
a somewhat skewed perspective and don't have any real life examples. we
make assumptions based on what it *sounds like* through our
restriction-focused filters and are probably often off the mark.

>Keep buying the food you think is healthy. Make the meals you >think are
>healthy.

i am. though being less structured about it. i make dinner when i
anticipate people will be hungry and if they aren't, i save it for them
for later. it's just happening more and more now that they don't want
anything that's my idea. including most meals. regardless of whether or
not it's pretty much the only food we have. i get *i don't like what you
made...can i have a plain tortilla?* i let them have the tortilla and
they're hungry 10 minutes later, still not wanting their food. i made.
in looking at the grand scheme of things, they're choosing mostly junk.
it almost feels like now that i'm allowing them to eat these foods that
used to be special or even not allowed, i must have changed my mind and
they do have some sort of nutritional value? if i'm not pushing the
*good stuff*, maybe it's not such a big deal? but i do feel like it's a
big deal. and i don't know how to express my concerns without being a
dictator.

>But ask the kids what they'd like from the store and buy it.

doing that too. they have always helped pick veggies and fruit. now
we've extended it to them being able to pick one extra, non-planned item
each. that's all we've got money for right now.

>Don't
>make your home a place where kids can open the cupboard and >see every
choice
>in the grocery available! ;-)

heck, i haven't. :) we just usually don't have much (if anything) of the
*junk food* kind of stuff. now we have more than *feels right*. and it
doesn't last. which also brings up more stuff of mine...i want to make
it last. but if they don't and are ok with it being gone, why should i
care?

>The transition period after controls can be hard because kids >will
often
>want everything that has been limited. And they may want a lot >of it
because
>they feel insecure that it won't always be available.

makes total sense. i just need to keep this in my mind when i watch them
gorge themselves silly. ;) i find it so hard to keep my perspective.

>So, as Sandra often suggests, instead of removing the limits, >just say
yes
>more often.

this in particular helps so much. i can't say yes all the time but i can
most of the time. i don't need to say no just because i don't think it's
a good idea and i just happen to be bigger than them. i can say yes a
lot more than i do right now.

is there a point though when you say, *listen, you're eating too many
sweets and you seem to be grumpy, how about we cook something together?*
i find this happening a lot and the kids not being able to recognize how
their acting out is related to their not having good lasting energy food.
even if i point it out to them at that moment or later on and talk about
what seemed to have happened, they don't see it. maybe it's hard for
them to keep their perspective too. especially when they suspect i may
just change my mind again and stop allowing something. but how do i
solve for them being grumpy and hungry then and not having anything left
to feed them?

>So instead of saying or implying "Buy anything and as much as
>you want." Just say yes if they ask for something.

everytime? is it still restricting if i can only allow them a thing or
two beyond our normal meals? we just can't afford a lot of snack-y type
foods that i would normally *approve of*, let alone sugary, candy-type
stuff. that's reality for us and as the parent i feel like i do need to
prioritize healthy food for all of us with the little money we do have.

>The way I kept
>from eating it previously was by not buying it.

this is *so* me. and then i went further to a reward system for
myself...if i washed the dishes, swept the floor, read three books to the
kids, and folded the laundry...i could have a bowl of ice cream, etc. it
only felt natural to spread this thinking to my kids. and my husband
too, really...i would nag him if he was eating more than his share. it
only builds resentment. i try to be more relaxed about everyone but me
now, but i'm still feeling resentful if i don't (or someone else doesn't)
get something because someone else decided it was ok for them to take as
much as they wanted. we can't just keep buying more and more and more
until all are satisfied.

>So if I went to a party
>where there were chips and candy and cookies, I'd eat lots of >whatever
I
>didn't let myself have at home.

me too. and i preferred this way of going about it because i knew i
wouldn't be unhealthy for gorging myself just every once in a while. if
i have the food around regularly, i do have problems. i feel like it
calls to me. and it rarely goes for more than a day (regardless of the
quantity.) i just eat it til it's gone. a lot of this depends on our
family activity level (which is currently very low-nonexistent now that
the tv's come to be), my own social life (which is currently
nonexistent), and my level of depression (which is currently high.)

>But once I turned my thinking around and
>gave myself permission to buy and eat that kind of food, and >told
myself
>that, yes, when that bag was done I could buy another bag or a >dozen
bags
>more, I felt less desperate to finish it off and can actually >pass it
by if
>it's sitting out.

see, this is the part that doesn't work for me. i've pretty much always
had body image problems and am very hard on myself as far as my weight
goes. giving myself permission to eat food that i know isn't good for me
only makes me feel guilty and bad. i'm less worried about it being gone
soon...more worried about what it's going to do to me. i feel bad,
eating forbidden fruit feels good, so i eat more...then feel worse and
eat more. and the cycle of guilt continues. i sneak when my kids aren't
around and i guess it worries me to see them eating with abandon because
i have so many issues with this sort of thing.

>The fear is that despite how plentiful something is at the >moment, that
>there will come a time when it will become limited again so >the best
>strategy is to grab as much as possible while it's available.

with my kids it seems like that...with the added element that they don't
understand how long its going to be until they get more (what is a week
to a small child?)and they don't understand how icky it makes them feel
(or they forget from the last time, or choose to disregard it in favor of
it tasting good temporarily.) i just have to trust that eventually, if
they can get through the crap restrictions they've had since they were
born, that some of this will make sense. :)


thanks for all of the clarifications! :) i keep finding out more and
more that much of my *problems* are just that...mine. and that's a
bitter pill to swallow!

lisa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/6/2004 3:31:13 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
ecotopian@... writes:
is there a point though when you say, *listen, you're eating too many
sweets and you seem to be grumpy, how about we cook something together?*
===============

When I feel that way I just make them something I know they like and deliver
it to them where they are. A big plate of sandwiches or beans and cheese in a
tortilla.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Barbara Chase

>i'm pretty sure (unless things change dramatically between now
>and a month from now) that we won't even be able to afford cable because
>our trial period will be over (it's been around $8 for the first 2 mos.,
>$30 something normally.)

oh oh... houston we have a problem! this isn't going to go over well with
your kids. not if they are having so much fun watching all this new cool
stuff. at young ages kids just don't get 'we can't afford it' because they
see us (the parents) buying stuff all of the time.

perhaps you could put cable payments on your Christmas lists, and get a
year's subscription paid for by family/friends.


ciao
--bc--

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Seth W Bartels

thanks barbara,

'tis a nice thought. :) unfortunately, no one who buys us gifts (three
out of four grandparents) likes suggestions. MIL suggests i do too much
thinking when it comes to buying gifts for people (especially the
kids)...she says she would just buy something and if the kids didn't like
it, they were ungrateful. ugh. my mom usually buys things we need like
winter coats/boots/clothes plus a little something extra. maybe i'll
give it a shot if things get desperate enough...or maybe we'll try to
find another way.

the kids are now starting to ask for outside of the house activities
(like ballet lessons and a learning to swim class) that cost money as
well, so something's got to give. i don't have a preference either way
really. i'd be sad to have absolutely no television (though i'd secretly
feel relieved to be missing the unending cartoon noise in the house), but
i'd also be adopting difficulty in trying to get everyone back into the
*we-have-be-to-the-lesson-in-time-or-it'll-be-over-before-we-get-there*
mode even if it made me happy to see my kids having fun (if they actually
enjoyed it.)

sometimes i get frustrated trying to figure out when the kids are serious
about something or not. and with money being so tight, i have a hard
time not being resentful of missed lessons/classes with the reason being
*because i don't feel like it today*. heck, i don't like them missing
due to genuine illness. it just feels so out of balance. i've never
forced the kids to go to something if they didn't want to, but i can't
help thinking perhaps we should have just skipped the whole thing
altogether, with all the hubbub that comes along with it. this is
happening even with our homeschool group get togethers recently. it
costs $5 or so each week we get together, plus it's kinda far and then
there's gas to pay for which ain't cheap and i have to make other
arrangements for dh to get to school and work. *sigh* i just wish i
could give more freely and not have to worry so much about *the bottom
line*.

and i know the kids don't get the *we can't afford it* stuff. and even
if they do...sometimes it still hurts. but what can we do? stuff costs
money. we don't have much money. therefore, we have to limit stuff.
and it's not like my husband and i are constantly buying things for
ourselves...in fact, my shoes are split all along the bottom seam on one
side and i'm still wearing the same clothes that i bought *vintage* when
i was 15-17 (i'm now 25). i sacrifice a lot of material stuff, even what
most would consider essentials, to provide for my kids. i just can't do
everything.

longing for simpler *cheaper* days that don't seem in the cards...maybe i
should allow a little more transition time for myself?

attending a solo pity party this morning...maybe because it's grey
outside. always seems to turn me into *eeyore mode* ;)

lisa



>i'm pretty sure (unless things change dramatically between now
>and a month from now) that we won't even be able to afford cable because
>our trial period will be over (it's been around $8 for the first 2 mos.,
>$30 something normally.)

oh oh... houston we have a problem! this isn't going to go over well
with
your kids. not if they are having so much fun watching all this new cool
stuff. at young ages kids just don't get 'we can't afford it' because
they
see us (the parents) buying stuff all of the time.

perhaps you could put cable payments on your Christmas lists, and get a
year's subscription paid for by family/friends.


ciao
--bc--

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.

Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT






Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb Lewis

>i'm pretty sure (unless things change dramatically between now
>and a month from now) that we won't even be able to afford cable because
>our trial period will be over (it's been around $8 for the first 2 mos.,
>$30 something normally.)

A year or so ago we unsubbed from satellite for awhile because we
couldn't afford it. We got one kind of fuzzy channel and one really
fuzzy channel.

I asked friends if they could record shows they were going to watch
anyway and share the tapes with us. My sister recorded sci-fi B movies
and old horror movies for us. My friend Ellen taped "Enterprise". When
friends or family would rent a movie they'd drop it by our house after
they were finished with it and we'd watch it and return it.

It helped. We read the Harry Potter books through again, aloud. We
made it a nightly thing with popcorn or hot chocolate.

: /

Deb L

Elizabeth Hill

** sometimes i get frustrated trying to figure out when the kids are serious
about something or not. and with money being so tight, i have a hard
time not being resentful of missed lessons/classes with the reason being
*because i don't feel like it today*. heck, i don't like them missing
due to genuine illness. it just feels so out of balance.**

As an adult, I would prefer to join a gym that lets me pay only when I
show up, rather than charging me $100 every month whether I am there or
not. I wish more classes could be tried on a one time basis or paid for
on a one time basis. (I do understand that this exposes the teacher to
undesirable financial risks.)

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/8/04 9:20:56 AM, ddzimlew@... writes:

<< We got one kind of fuzzy channel and one really
fuzzy channel.
<<I asked friends if they could record shows they were going to watch
anyway and share the tapes with us. >>

Mary Gold (and her husband) very generously recorded Ali G for us and mailed
it along, because we don't have cable.

I used to record The Young and the Restless for a young male friend of mine
who got a job that kept him from watching.

Sandra

Nisha

--- In [email protected], Seth W Bartels
<ecotopian@j...> wrote:
> the kids are now starting to ask for outside of the house activities
> (like ballet lessons and a learning to swim class) that cost money
as well, so something's got to give. i don't have a preference
either way really.

Maybe you could very gently talk to the people that you get gifts
from, and tell them that there are some things that the kids really
want to do that you really can't afford, and what the kids and you
really really want and even need, is for them to help out in that
direction. Also, you could mention that if they are paying for a set
of lessons, that it is going to be something that the kids are
genuinely thankful for way past Christmas.
Here is what happened with us...
Last year, we were moving over christmas, and I didn't want to lug
boxes of stuff from Texas to Georgia. I asked the people that
normally give us stuff that they buy, (some of our family does
homemade gifts, which we all love.) to please, please, find another
way of giving the kids the things that they wanted to give. My best
friend's mom and my parents and my sister did a walmart gift card,
with a photo of what they wanted the kids to buy. They saved on
postage big time, and we ended up getting even more stuff for the
cash they spent since we were able to get it at the after christmas
sales. Also, I didn't have to lug boxes of stuff halfway across the
country with the cat, the dog, two kids, my dh, and all of our
luggage. LOL I expected some resistance to the idea, but it seems to
have caught on, and two of the three are doing the same thing again
this year. :)
nisha