back again and discouraged
flyerkat
I am back in the group after a long absence. Sandra, you have been on
my mind for months. You are a wealth of information and inspiration
and very thought provoking. I hang on your every word. I must tell
you though, that I got so discouraged reading your messages because I
just felt I couldnt measure up.
For example, I love the concept of unschooling, we have been aspiring
to it for 5 years. I am not an idiot, but I find it very difficult to
be creative enough to incorporate math into everyday life on a daily
basis. Im college educated but I just dont think that way. Sure, it
happens occasionally and I seize the moment, but not enough to amount
to a full knowledge of math.
Sure, all the unschool experts say go to the grocery store, make
cakes, measure things, estimate, ... But a lot of textbook math is
rare in everyday life (why would a 8 yo need square roots, what the
hell is an integer, distributive properties,... ).
I just felt I was failing miserably while others seem to have it all
together. Please tell us you dont do it all perfectly.
my mind for months. You are a wealth of information and inspiration
and very thought provoking. I hang on your every word. I must tell
you though, that I got so discouraged reading your messages because I
just felt I couldnt measure up.
For example, I love the concept of unschooling, we have been aspiring
to it for 5 years. I am not an idiot, but I find it very difficult to
be creative enough to incorporate math into everyday life on a daily
basis. Im college educated but I just dont think that way. Sure, it
happens occasionally and I seize the moment, but not enough to amount
to a full knowledge of math.
Sure, all the unschool experts say go to the grocery store, make
cakes, measure things, estimate, ... But a lot of textbook math is
rare in everyday life (why would a 8 yo need square roots, what the
hell is an integer, distributive properties,... ).
I just felt I was failing miserably while others seem to have it all
together. Please tell us you dont do it all perfectly.
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/2/04 8:23:27 AM, flyerrod@... writes:
<< I just felt I was failing miserably while others seem to have it all
together. Please tell us you dont do it all perfectly. >>
"Perfectly" would be what?
Kids know square roots?
I learned to perfectly not care whether kids knew square roots. That was
easy. Having been "taught" that three times in school, I don't "know that."
And yet I can drive a car, type like the wind, harmonize by ear, sew without
patterns. . .
-=-Sure, all the unschool experts say go to the grocery store, make
cakes, measure things, estimate, ... -=-
I think what the people who say those things mean is to let go of looking for
math so that you can see it all around you.
This article might help. (And it's not about math, I can assure you right up
front. <g>)
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
Here's one paragraph from it, and it gets better (I like to think, anyway):
-=-If I went to the flea market to buy a torque wrench but I didn't know what
one looked like, I would have a pretty hard time just finding one by looking
around. It probably wouldn't be on a table with clocks made of cross-cut
cedar. Looking through a tray of cassette tapes wouldn't help. It would be
especially difficult if I didn't even know what a torque wrench was for. I might look
all through those wirey-boards and steel boxes computer-repair guy brought. I
could look for hours through cloth and paperback books and come home saying
"Going to the flea market for a torque wrench doesn't work."-=-
-=-But a lot of textbook math is
rare in everyday life (why would a 8 yo need square roots, what the
hell is an integer, distributive properties,... ). -=-
Why would an 18 year old need square roots?
To make a few more points in a math placement test, maybe.
Kirby happens to be 18. He has in the past month or two learned "integer"
(or heard it discussed, maybe didn't "learn it," but at his age it's just
vocabulary for ideas he already understands) and was in another discussion about
distributive properties. Why? He wants to take a GED and I was going through
the test booklet with him. Math is strong in him, but the terminology and
notation are not. Not a big deal. Too many school kids are full of terminology
and notation, but the math part of them is crippled or dying.
Here's more about math and Kirby, too:
http://sandradodd.com/timestables
-=-I am not an idiot, but I find it very difficult to
be creative enough to incorporate math into everyday life on a daily
basis.-=-
Stop trying. You're struggling with something that can happen on its own
when you stop struggling (and not until you stop struggling). You're wasting
energy and wasting guilt you could use more productively elsewhere in your life.
<g>
-=-not enough to amount
to a full knowledge of math.
-=-
I think the problem is your mental model of "a full knowledge of math."
Please read the links above when you get a chance, and post more of your
worries here if you want them to dry out some in the light of all this readership.
Sandra
<< I just felt I was failing miserably while others seem to have it all
together. Please tell us you dont do it all perfectly. >>
"Perfectly" would be what?
Kids know square roots?
I learned to perfectly not care whether kids knew square roots. That was
easy. Having been "taught" that three times in school, I don't "know that."
And yet I can drive a car, type like the wind, harmonize by ear, sew without
patterns. . .
-=-Sure, all the unschool experts say go to the grocery store, make
cakes, measure things, estimate, ... -=-
I think what the people who say those things mean is to let go of looking for
math so that you can see it all around you.
This article might help. (And it's not about math, I can assure you right up
front. <g>)
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
Here's one paragraph from it, and it gets better (I like to think, anyway):
-=-If I went to the flea market to buy a torque wrench but I didn't know what
one looked like, I would have a pretty hard time just finding one by looking
around. It probably wouldn't be on a table with clocks made of cross-cut
cedar. Looking through a tray of cassette tapes wouldn't help. It would be
especially difficult if I didn't even know what a torque wrench was for. I might look
all through those wirey-boards and steel boxes computer-repair guy brought. I
could look for hours through cloth and paperback books and come home saying
"Going to the flea market for a torque wrench doesn't work."-=-
-=-But a lot of textbook math is
rare in everyday life (why would a 8 yo need square roots, what the
hell is an integer, distributive properties,... ). -=-
Why would an 18 year old need square roots?
To make a few more points in a math placement test, maybe.
Kirby happens to be 18. He has in the past month or two learned "integer"
(or heard it discussed, maybe didn't "learn it," but at his age it's just
vocabulary for ideas he already understands) and was in another discussion about
distributive properties. Why? He wants to take a GED and I was going through
the test booklet with him. Math is strong in him, but the terminology and
notation are not. Not a big deal. Too many school kids are full of terminology
and notation, but the math part of them is crippled or dying.
Here's more about math and Kirby, too:
http://sandradodd.com/timestables
-=-I am not an idiot, but I find it very difficult to
be creative enough to incorporate math into everyday life on a daily
basis.-=-
Stop trying. You're struggling with something that can happen on its own
when you stop struggling (and not until you stop struggling). You're wasting
energy and wasting guilt you could use more productively elsewhere in your life.
<g>
-=-not enough to amount
to a full knowledge of math.
-=-
I think the problem is your mental model of "a full knowledge of math."
Please read the links above when you get a chance, and post more of your
worries here if you want them to dry out some in the light of all this readership.
Sandra
joylyn
flyerkat wrote:
In my mind unschooling doesn't mean you can't or don't use textbooks.
Instead it's about following a child's interests.
children can and will learn.
Joylyn
> I am back in the group after a long absence. Sandra, you have been onWhy are you comparing yourself to others?
> my mind for months. You are a wealth of information and inspiration
> and very thought provoking. I hang on your every word. I must tell
> you though, that I got so discouraged reading your messages because I
> just felt I couldnt measure up.
> For example, I love the concept of unschooling, we have been aspiringWhy does it need to be on a daily basis?
> to it for 5 years. I am not an idiot, but I find it very difficult to
> be creative enough to incorporate math into everyday life on a daily
> basis.
> Im college educated but I just dont think that way. Sure, itWhat is the full knowledge of math? What does this mean?
> happens occasionally and I seize the moment, but not enough to amount
> to a full knowledge of math.
>So why does an 8yo need that math, at 8? or at 10? or 15?
> Sure, all the unschool experts say go to the grocery store, make
> cakes, measure things, estimate, ... But a lot of textbook math is
> rare in everyday life (why would a 8 yo need square roots, what the
> hell is an integer, distributive properties,... ).
>
In my mind unschooling doesn't mean you can't or don't use textbooks.
Instead it's about following a child's interests.
> I just felt I was failing miserably while others seem to have it allNo one does it perfectly. It is hard to let go and trust that your
> together. Please tell us you dont do it all perfectly.
>
children can and will learn.
Joylyn
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Kelli Traaseth
Chin up :), I'm glad your back!
Its really going to help you if you let go of your "schooly" expectations. We have so many ideas and expectations put in our minds from school and they really do get in the way of unschooling taking off in a wonderful and free way. I think you know that, just let it go!
***I find it very difficult to
be creative enough to incorporate math into everyday life on a daily
basis.***
Then don't. Really. Don't incorporate anything. Just live your lives. Live them to their fullest, follow what your kids like and want to do and all those other things fall into place.
This morning for example, while I've been writing this post, my daughter has written a letter with a picture and a message. She decorated an envelope, wrote and learned about addresses and return addresses, discussed why we need return addresses. Then talked about why we need stamps and certain things in certain places on an envelope. She's 6. That's an awful lot of learning in just 30 minutes. :)
If you want to talk about math, here ya go-- my other daughter (10) doesn't think she's good at math. She thinks her older brother is better at it than her. Although the other day as I was waiting for her to get some socks on to go walk the dog, she decided to fill in the blanks on a multiplication table.
We had written out one, months ago. She wanted to know some multiplication so I drew one up for her. I started filling in some numbers and then she said, "Stop! I want to do it now." She didn't finish it right then, worked a few and then put it down.
Speed up to our dog walking day, she goes up to get socks and sees the table and wants to finish it. I always thought doing a multiplication table was fun, kind-of like a puzzle. That's what she thinks, and that's what she was doing and had to do at that moment.
As I was waiting downstairs for her, I yelled up to her, "are you coming on the walk?" Her reply, "yep, just a minute I'm figuring out multiplication, but I'll be done in a minute." :) Really, if you have someone willing and able, you can learn an awful lot of math in a very short amount of time. (Right Pam <g>)
Your children might not learn math everyday. They might not learn English or other subjects everyday. But you know what, when they do learn them, they are in realistic moments. Moments that they will remember and that's real learning.
***Im college educated but I just dont think that way. Sure, it
happens occasionally and I seize the moment, but not enough to amount
to a full knowledge of math.***
There are a lot of us here with college educations, you can get there, but it takes some work. Read more, read more about deschooling. Have you read lots of Holt's writings? Have you read lots of unschooling books? A lot of books written on the subject are by people who once didn't think in unschooling ways. And then they saw the light. <g> You can too!
Oh and also, maybe one of your children isn't going to be a math wizard, maybe they won't have a head full of math concepts. That's OK. Trust them to learn what they need. That's an integral part of unschooling. They might instead have a whole head full of dance steps, or musical notes, or strategies from video games.
You have to trust your child and you might be able to do more of that if you step away from those school thoughts.
Don't give up! If you have wanted to do this for 5 years, it must be making some important connections for you.
Kelli~
PS. One last thing-- you said:
***Please tell us you dont do it all perfectly.***
We don't. We all make mistakes and fall short sometimes. For me its when I'm tired or feeling impatient. But I've learned to breathe through those moments. Knowing that this is the best and only way I want to live my life keeps me going. That and my kids love it too! <G>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Its really going to help you if you let go of your "schooly" expectations. We have so many ideas and expectations put in our minds from school and they really do get in the way of unschooling taking off in a wonderful and free way. I think you know that, just let it go!
***I find it very difficult to
be creative enough to incorporate math into everyday life on a daily
basis.***
Then don't. Really. Don't incorporate anything. Just live your lives. Live them to their fullest, follow what your kids like and want to do and all those other things fall into place.
This morning for example, while I've been writing this post, my daughter has written a letter with a picture and a message. She decorated an envelope, wrote and learned about addresses and return addresses, discussed why we need return addresses. Then talked about why we need stamps and certain things in certain places on an envelope. She's 6. That's an awful lot of learning in just 30 minutes. :)
If you want to talk about math, here ya go-- my other daughter (10) doesn't think she's good at math. She thinks her older brother is better at it than her. Although the other day as I was waiting for her to get some socks on to go walk the dog, she decided to fill in the blanks on a multiplication table.
We had written out one, months ago. She wanted to know some multiplication so I drew one up for her. I started filling in some numbers and then she said, "Stop! I want to do it now." She didn't finish it right then, worked a few and then put it down.
Speed up to our dog walking day, she goes up to get socks and sees the table and wants to finish it. I always thought doing a multiplication table was fun, kind-of like a puzzle. That's what she thinks, and that's what she was doing and had to do at that moment.
As I was waiting downstairs for her, I yelled up to her, "are you coming on the walk?" Her reply, "yep, just a minute I'm figuring out multiplication, but I'll be done in a minute." :) Really, if you have someone willing and able, you can learn an awful lot of math in a very short amount of time. (Right Pam <g>)
Your children might not learn math everyday. They might not learn English or other subjects everyday. But you know what, when they do learn them, they are in realistic moments. Moments that they will remember and that's real learning.
***Im college educated but I just dont think that way. Sure, it
happens occasionally and I seize the moment, but not enough to amount
to a full knowledge of math.***
There are a lot of us here with college educations, you can get there, but it takes some work. Read more, read more about deschooling. Have you read lots of Holt's writings? Have you read lots of unschooling books? A lot of books written on the subject are by people who once didn't think in unschooling ways. And then they saw the light. <g> You can too!
Oh and also, maybe one of your children isn't going to be a math wizard, maybe they won't have a head full of math concepts. That's OK. Trust them to learn what they need. That's an integral part of unschooling. They might instead have a whole head full of dance steps, or musical notes, or strategies from video games.
You have to trust your child and you might be able to do more of that if you step away from those school thoughts.
Don't give up! If you have wanted to do this for 5 years, it must be making some important connections for you.
Kelli~
PS. One last thing-- you said:
***Please tell us you dont do it all perfectly.***
We don't. We all make mistakes and fall short sometimes. For me its when I'm tired or feeling impatient. But I've learned to breathe through those moments. Knowing that this is the best and only way I want to live my life keeps me going. That and my kids love it too! <G>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/2/2004 11:37:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
kellitraas@... writes:
Your children might not learn math everyday. They might not learn English or
other subjects everyday. But you know what, when they do learn them, they
are in realistic moments. Moments that they will remember and that's real
learning.<<<<
They probably WILL. You just won't SEE it!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kellitraas@... writes:
Your children might not learn math everyday. They might not learn English or
other subjects everyday. But you know what, when they do learn them, they
are in realistic moments. Moments that they will remember and that's real
learning.<<<<
They probably WILL. You just won't SEE it!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Traaseth
kellitraas@... writes:
Your children might not learn math everyday. They might not learn English or
other subjects everyday. But you know what, when they do learn them, they
are in realistic moments. Moments that they will remember and that's real
learning.<<<<
kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
*****They probably WILL. You just won't SEE it!****
Right, but sometimes you have to stop looking for it, for it to start happening.
Know what I mean? <g> And be OK if it doesn't look like what you think it should.
I love the way Pam L. touches on that in her video game talk/article. Being accepting of the way our children are learning.
I stop and think about it and we pretty much do learn all "subjects" every single day. But everyone is different. My youngest might touch on everything one day and my son might not. Then another day he'll cover a ton on everything and she'll just do one thing.
It goes in wonderful bursts, here and there. :)
Kelli~
---------------------------------
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vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your children might not learn math everyday. They might not learn English or
other subjects everyday. But you know what, when they do learn them, they
are in realistic moments. Moments that they will remember and that's real
learning.<<<<
kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
*****They probably WILL. You just won't SEE it!****
Right, but sometimes you have to stop looking for it, for it to start happening.
Know what I mean? <g> And be OK if it doesn't look like what you think it should.
I love the way Pam L. touches on that in her video game talk/article. Being accepting of the way our children are learning.
I stop and think about it and we pretty much do learn all "subjects" every single day. But everyone is different. My youngest might touch on everything one day and my son might not. Then another day he'll cover a ton on everything and she'll just do one thing.
It goes in wonderful bursts, here and there. :)
Kelli~
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/2/2004 10:23:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
flyerrod@... writes:
I am not an idiot, but I find it very difficult to
be creative enough to incorporate math into everyday life on a daily
basis. Im college educated but I just dont think that way. Sure, it
happens occasionally and I seize the moment, but not enough to amount
to a full knowledge of math.
Sure, all the unschool experts say go to the grocery store, make
cakes, measure things, estimate, ... But a lot of textbook math is
rare in everyday life (why would a 8 yo need square roots, what the
hell is an integer, distributive properties,... ). <<<<<
Sounds as if you're looking for "teachable moments"---not unschooling at all!
YOU're not supposed to be seizing the moment----they are, in their own
heads, when they are ready. And it probably WON'T look anything like what you
expect.
My eight year old knows what square roots are. He can't figure out the
square root of 27, but he does know that four fours are 16 and five fives are 25
and six sixes are 36. He also knows that, if you push that little square root
sign on a calculator, you'll get a really funny number sometimes. He also
knows that lined up and down in dots, they make squares! <g>
Does it impact his life at all to know it? I have no idea----he's just
playing with numbers. But he's *not* afraid of them!
And Pam's first piece of advice is "Do No Harm!"
My 16 year old didn't understand fractions (after eight years of school!)
until he worked in a deli and had to make milkshakes. He (at 14) was told to
fill the container 3/4 full----and suddenly the light went on! He came home to
tell me that he finally understood what fractions were! <G> Quarts, halves,
3/8ths. It all suddenly made sense!
He's doing real life things and figuring things out because he needs/wants
to.
You don't have to make a 'lesson' out of every little math experience.
People make connections every day, but they have to have 'dots' to connect. Let
your children find their own dots---little bits of information they gather from
living a rich life---and they will connect them in strange and wonderful
ways.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
flyerrod@... writes:
I am not an idiot, but I find it very difficult to
be creative enough to incorporate math into everyday life on a daily
basis. Im college educated but I just dont think that way. Sure, it
happens occasionally and I seize the moment, but not enough to amount
to a full knowledge of math.
Sure, all the unschool experts say go to the grocery store, make
cakes, measure things, estimate, ... But a lot of textbook math is
rare in everyday life (why would a 8 yo need square roots, what the
hell is an integer, distributive properties,... ). <<<<<
Sounds as if you're looking for "teachable moments"---not unschooling at all!
YOU're not supposed to be seizing the moment----they are, in their own
heads, when they are ready. And it probably WON'T look anything like what you
expect.
My eight year old knows what square roots are. He can't figure out the
square root of 27, but he does know that four fours are 16 and five fives are 25
and six sixes are 36. He also knows that, if you push that little square root
sign on a calculator, you'll get a really funny number sometimes. He also
knows that lined up and down in dots, they make squares! <g>
Does it impact his life at all to know it? I have no idea----he's just
playing with numbers. But he's *not* afraid of them!
And Pam's first piece of advice is "Do No Harm!"
My 16 year old didn't understand fractions (after eight years of school!)
until he worked in a deli and had to make milkshakes. He (at 14) was told to
fill the container 3/4 full----and suddenly the light went on! He came home to
tell me that he finally understood what fractions were! <G> Quarts, halves,
3/8ths. It all suddenly made sense!
He's doing real life things and figuring things out because he needs/wants
to.
You don't have to make a 'lesson' out of every little math experience.
People make connections every day, but they have to have 'dots' to connect. Let
your children find their own dots---little bits of information they gather from
living a rich life---and they will connect them in strange and wonderful
ways.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rod Thomas
What prompted all this, I guess, is that this week I put my kids in
public school for one day. Two reasons: my 6 yo wanted to go. He was
curious were all his friends go every day. I wanted him to see for
himself. I wanted my 11 year old to be aware of his choices. He hated
it. He said "the clock never moves, its so boring", and most of all, he
was embarrassed that he didn't know the math they were doing. He was in
tears that night because he did not want to go back because he felt
stupid.
How do you deal with that; when they don't measure up to the school
kids? I have not been pushing the math so he is behind them. Of
course, he is ahead of lots of them in reading and other areas. But he
cant see that.
He also was reprimanded for getting a drink of water and was afraid to
ask to go to the bathroom. My 6 year old was reprimanded for throwing
his lunch garbage away before he was supposed to. I was a wreck all day
worrying how they were getting along. I still want them at home with
me, but I want them to make the choice. I hung around the school most
of the day, and some of the things I witnessed were scarey. But that's
a whole other subject.
So... I guess it is hard to fit in when you are an unschooler.
public school for one day. Two reasons: my 6 yo wanted to go. He was
curious were all his friends go every day. I wanted him to see for
himself. I wanted my 11 year old to be aware of his choices. He hated
it. He said "the clock never moves, its so boring", and most of all, he
was embarrassed that he didn't know the math they were doing. He was in
tears that night because he did not want to go back because he felt
stupid.
How do you deal with that; when they don't measure up to the school
kids? I have not been pushing the math so he is behind them. Of
course, he is ahead of lots of them in reading and other areas. But he
cant see that.
He also was reprimanded for getting a drink of water and was afraid to
ask to go to the bathroom. My 6 year old was reprimanded for throwing
his lunch garbage away before he was supposed to. I was a wreck all day
worrying how they were getting along. I still want them at home with
me, but I want them to make the choice. I hung around the school most
of the day, and some of the things I witnessed were scarey. But that's
a whole other subject.
So... I guess it is hard to fit in when you are an unschooler.
joylyn
Rod Thomas wrote:
system that is not healthy, such as the PS system.
Joylyn
>And that's a bad thing? I don't want my children to "fit in" to a
>
> So... I guess it is hard to fit in when you are an unschooler.
system that is not healthy, such as the PS system.
Joylyn
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/2/2004 7:07:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
flyerrod@... writes:
... I guess it is hard to fit in when you are an unschooler.<<<<<
There's no *reason* to fit in when you're an unschooler! <g>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
flyerrod@... writes:
... I guess it is hard to fit in when you are an unschooler.<<<<<
There's no *reason* to fit in when you're an unschooler! <g>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/2/04 5:07:57 PM, flyerrod@... writes:
=So... I guess it is hard to fit in when you are an unschooler.=
I'm going to start with the final statement and then go back to the earlier
stuff.
It's hard to fit in *at school* when you're an unschooler, but it's easier to
fit in the world when one has been unschooled for many years. If I wanted
my kids to fit in at school, sending them to school would've been my best
course. If I had sent them and found they did NOT fit in whatsoever (which is
true of many kids, poor things, who have no option to bail), then any fantasy of
them fitting in better by being unschooled would be unrealistic.
Unschooling and school are so different that unschoolers can't simply be
plugged back in. You can't drop them back on the assembly line as though you
never took them off.
<< I wanted my 11 year old to be aware of his choices. He hated
it. He said "the clock never moves, its so boring", and most of all, he
was embarrassed that he didn't know the math they were doing. He was in
tears that night because he did not want to go back because he felt
stupid. >>
The couple of times a kid of mine has said "might want to go to school next
year," I've told them then they needed to practice handwriting and formal math
(as appropriate) and I'd be willing to help them.
-=-this week I put my kids in
public school for one day-=-
Was the 11 year old in on that, or was it done against his will? You don't
need to tell us, but for me, I wouldn't put a kid in school cold who wasn't
prepared. I wouldn't let one go on his own without trying to coach him toward
readiness for some of the things he missed (mathematical notation and "Don't get
up without permission" kinds of things).
-=-How do you deal with that; when they don't measure up to the school kids?
-=-
There are lots of things to say to a question.
The nature of grading and comparisons in school require that 1/3 or more of
the kids who have always been in school "don't measure up to the school kids."
-=-I have not been pushing the math so he is behind them. Of
course, he is ahead of lots of them in reading and other areas. But he
cant see that. -=-
That's a problem for unschooled kids, particularly from about 9 to 12, I
think. Joyce and I talked about this with our kids (12, 13, 15) after the Peabody
conference and they had some stories too.
Before 9yo/4th grade, the unschooled kids Do seem to be learning like crazy,
and looking at lists of "expected competencies" or what's expected in those
first three or four grades shows our kids are just fine.
Then for a few years school does some things unschoolers don't do. Forced
cursive handwriting, maybe (not all schools, and the UK has a "connected up
writing," I think they call it, that's more like a simple Italic calligraphy hand,
and makes more sense). Multiplication and division (formally drawn out,
column by column CERTAINLY not in one's head--that's "wrong"). History "facts"
(more like simplified mythology) about Columbus and the American Revolution (
sorry to use U.S. examples, and maybe other English speaking nations have done
better with their rote beginning history than we have, so disregard this if so).
Meanwhile, the unschooled kids are still playing games, figuring out math
their own individual ways in their heads and with toys or whatever, and being
creative and "immature" (by school standards, meaning they're not involved in
shucking off their childhoods or their imaginations), and so that's the worst
time to compare them to schooled kids or to put them back in school, I think.
(Worst for making unschooling look bad, at least, if not for kids' liklihood of
slipping in smoothly.)
Then when kids are 13 and older, the unschoolers are just starting to blossom
with all kinds of ideas and questions and maybe projects and some kind of
philosophical outreach (some of them, if they have the talents/interests to do
so). They are living in the real world, and starting to care more about what's
outside of themselves. Their questions are big and good ones. Their
understanding of history and science doesn't look like school's, but it's often based
in their having started to connect hundreds of dots in their own worlds.
Meanwhile, back in school, 8th graders, 9th graders (translate for
Brit-system in your head if you need to, sorry) are about fed up with their
nearly-ten-years of forced short-term study/regurgitate/forget, we know you know this,
just do it again for practice. Some of them begin to shut down, or to just go
through the motions without joy (if they still had any left at that point).
They become resentful at their lock-up and have all of high school to look
forward to. Not only more of the same, but the teachers start to outright SAY
"That history they taught you when you were little was quite oversimplified,
here's what happened." And some of them who read outside of school know well
enough that this version is just a higher-level oversimplification. It's not real
history. It's an additional layer of facts on the same few myths.
So I think both "learning curves" (quite a generalization and won't apply to
all individuals) have a flat spot, but for unschoolers I think it's in the
middle, when they're 10, 11ish. For schooled kids it's later, when they're 13 or
14 that they stall out a while.
Sandra
=So... I guess it is hard to fit in when you are an unschooler.=
I'm going to start with the final statement and then go back to the earlier
stuff.
It's hard to fit in *at school* when you're an unschooler, but it's easier to
fit in the world when one has been unschooled for many years. If I wanted
my kids to fit in at school, sending them to school would've been my best
course. If I had sent them and found they did NOT fit in whatsoever (which is
true of many kids, poor things, who have no option to bail), then any fantasy of
them fitting in better by being unschooled would be unrealistic.
Unschooling and school are so different that unschoolers can't simply be
plugged back in. You can't drop them back on the assembly line as though you
never took them off.
<< I wanted my 11 year old to be aware of his choices. He hated
it. He said "the clock never moves, its so boring", and most of all, he
was embarrassed that he didn't know the math they were doing. He was in
tears that night because he did not want to go back because he felt
stupid. >>
The couple of times a kid of mine has said "might want to go to school next
year," I've told them then they needed to practice handwriting and formal math
(as appropriate) and I'd be willing to help them.
-=-this week I put my kids in
public school for one day-=-
Was the 11 year old in on that, or was it done against his will? You don't
need to tell us, but for me, I wouldn't put a kid in school cold who wasn't
prepared. I wouldn't let one go on his own without trying to coach him toward
readiness for some of the things he missed (mathematical notation and "Don't get
up without permission" kinds of things).
-=-How do you deal with that; when they don't measure up to the school kids?
-=-
There are lots of things to say to a question.
The nature of grading and comparisons in school require that 1/3 or more of
the kids who have always been in school "don't measure up to the school kids."
-=-I have not been pushing the math so he is behind them. Of
course, he is ahead of lots of them in reading and other areas. But he
cant see that. -=-
That's a problem for unschooled kids, particularly from about 9 to 12, I
think. Joyce and I talked about this with our kids (12, 13, 15) after the Peabody
conference and they had some stories too.
Before 9yo/4th grade, the unschooled kids Do seem to be learning like crazy,
and looking at lists of "expected competencies" or what's expected in those
first three or four grades shows our kids are just fine.
Then for a few years school does some things unschoolers don't do. Forced
cursive handwriting, maybe (not all schools, and the UK has a "connected up
writing," I think they call it, that's more like a simple Italic calligraphy hand,
and makes more sense). Multiplication and division (formally drawn out,
column by column CERTAINLY not in one's head--that's "wrong"). History "facts"
(more like simplified mythology) about Columbus and the American Revolution (
sorry to use U.S. examples, and maybe other English speaking nations have done
better with their rote beginning history than we have, so disregard this if so).
Meanwhile, the unschooled kids are still playing games, figuring out math
their own individual ways in their heads and with toys or whatever, and being
creative and "immature" (by school standards, meaning they're not involved in
shucking off their childhoods or their imaginations), and so that's the worst
time to compare them to schooled kids or to put them back in school, I think.
(Worst for making unschooling look bad, at least, if not for kids' liklihood of
slipping in smoothly.)
Then when kids are 13 and older, the unschoolers are just starting to blossom
with all kinds of ideas and questions and maybe projects and some kind of
philosophical outreach (some of them, if they have the talents/interests to do
so). They are living in the real world, and starting to care more about what's
outside of themselves. Their questions are big and good ones. Their
understanding of history and science doesn't look like school's, but it's often based
in their having started to connect hundreds of dots in their own worlds.
Meanwhile, back in school, 8th graders, 9th graders (translate for
Brit-system in your head if you need to, sorry) are about fed up with their
nearly-ten-years of forced short-term study/regurgitate/forget, we know you know this,
just do it again for practice. Some of them begin to shut down, or to just go
through the motions without joy (if they still had any left at that point).
They become resentful at their lock-up and have all of high school to look
forward to. Not only more of the same, but the teachers start to outright SAY
"That history they taught you when you were little was quite oversimplified,
here's what happened." And some of them who read outside of school know well
enough that this version is just a higher-level oversimplification. It's not real
history. It's an additional layer of facts on the same few myths.
So I think both "learning curves" (quite a generalization and won't apply to
all individuals) have a flat spot, but for unschoolers I think it's in the
middle, when they're 10, 11ish. For schooled kids it's later, when they're 13 or
14 that they stall out a while.
Sandra
Dawn Adams
>What prompted all this, I guess, is that this week I put my kids inIt was fair for the 6 yr old I guess but why on earth send the 11 yr old if he didn't ask to go? You're 11 yr old didn't need to go to school to know that it was a choice. Now he's suffering because of it. I think an apology to him is in order.
>public school for one day. Two reasons: my 6 yo wanted to go. He was
>curious were all his friends go every day. I wanted him to see for
>himself. I wanted my 11 year old to be aware of his choices. He hated
>it. He said "the clock never moves, its so boring", and most of all, he
>was embarrassed that he didn't know the math they were doing. He was in
>tears that night because he did not want to go back because he felt
>stupid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>He also was reprimanded for getting a drink of water and was afraid toI'm not sure it's fair to send a kid to school without him asking to go because you want the choice to be his. Unschooling can also be a family choice and you can explain that choice to him and give him information to read about unschooling. There's lots of info about school too he can read without being sent into the lion's den. If you wanted him to make an informed choice about parachuting you wouldn't chuck him out of a plane.
>ask to go to the bathroom. My 6 year old was reprimanded for throwing
>his lunch garbage away before he was supposed to. I was a wreck all day
>worrying how they were getting along. I still want them at home with
>me, but I want them to make the choice. I hung around the school most
>of the day, and some of the things I witnessed were scarey. But that's
>a whole other subject.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<< But a lot of textbook math is
rare in everyday life (why would a 8 yo need square roots, what the
hell is an integer, distributive properties,... ).>>>>
That is precisely why it is unnecessary. We make cookies to make cookies.
Last night we made two cakes, one as a birthday gift for Granny, and one to
keep here, because Jayn asked for it.
<<<<I just felt I was failing miserably while others seem to have it all
together. Please tell us you dont do it all perfectly.>>>>
I certainly don't have it all together. I feel I fall short, especially in
comparison to what my dd deserves, on a daily basis. If I am tired or
stressed I start to be disengaged with Jayn.
But, by golly, Jayn (4.9) has it together. She knows precisely what she
wants to do every day, or night in our current schedule. The only time when
she is not just "being", engaged and enthusiastic in the moment, is when I
have tried to force something on her. Even her sleeping is determined - she
is so difficult to awaken before she is entirely ready.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
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rare in everyday life (why would a 8 yo need square roots, what the
hell is an integer, distributive properties,... ).>>>>
That is precisely why it is unnecessary. We make cookies to make cookies.
Last night we made two cakes, one as a birthday gift for Granny, and one to
keep here, because Jayn asked for it.
<<<<I just felt I was failing miserably while others seem to have it all
together. Please tell us you dont do it all perfectly.>>>>
I certainly don't have it all together. I feel I fall short, especially in
comparison to what my dd deserves, on a daily basis. If I am tired or
stressed I start to be disengaged with Jayn.
But, by golly, Jayn (4.9) has it together. She knows precisely what she
wants to do every day, or night in our current schedule. The only time when
she is not just "being", engaged and enthusiastic in the moment, is when I
have tried to force something on her. Even her sleeping is determined - she
is so difficult to awaken before she is entirely ready.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.771 / Virus Database: 518 - Release Date: 9/28/2004
nellebelle
>>>>This article might help. (And it's not about math, I can assure you right upfront. <g>) http://sandradodd.com/seeingit >>>>>
That article reminds me of how I thought of unschooling at first, as I would look for "subjects" in our day to day activities. This is not the same as being aware of subjects, something that is hard for me to let go of after nearly two decades of subject indoctrination.
Looking for subjects, for me, meant that I would be happy to play games like Uno with the kids because it was "math". We were "doing" math! In fact, when I first began unschooling, I thought that it meant learning by playing games instead of learning by doing worksheets. That was nice and fun, but it wasn't unschooling. It was schooling with different tools.
Being aware of a subject might mean noticing that a child's comment on a paragraph in Harry Potter reflects an understanding of the theory of division. The child may not have any knowledge of the meaning of the word, "division", yet clearly understands the process of organizing something into smaller pieces, or divisions. Sure, you can call it math because humans have decided that anything to do with numbers is math, but "math" isn't the point. The point is reading something (or hearing, doing, experiencing, seeing something) and making connections in one's brain. That is real learning. The child doesn't need to know that it can be called division or math in order to have the thought process.
In some ways it is a small, insignificant difference, to say that one looks for subjects vs. one is aware of subjects, but it can make a big difference in getting to unschooling. If we only see evidence of our children learning when it looks like the school-learning we were taught ourselves, it will be difficult to accept unschooling as a viable method of providing our children with an education.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rod Thomas
Gee, now I feel better...
The part about chucking him out of a plane was funny though.
My son had reservations about going, but he was curious and willing to
check it out. It was kind of an experiment to see how the majority
live. He was there 4 hours. I told him if he didn't like it he did not
have to go back. I said he should have told the math teacher that he
hadn't learned this "stuff" yet.
Anyway, I am bordering on depression here. I love the idea of
unschooling. I have read tons of books, websites, very inspiring
speakers. It all seems to make perfect sense. Then you find yourself in
a group of people, trying to explain yourself and they all think you are
crazy and your kid will grow up to be stupid. And I get insecure and
think I am ruining their lives.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dawn Adams [mailto:Wishbone@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 8:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] back again and discouraged
old if he didn't ask to go? You're 11 yr old didn't need to go to school
to know that it was a choice. Now he's suffering because of it. I think
an apology to him is in order.
go because you want the choice to be his. Unschooling can also be a
family choice and you can explain that choice to him and give him
information to read about unschooling. There's lots of info about school
too he can read without being sent into the lion's den. If you wanted
him to make an informed choice about parachuting you wouldn't chuck him
out of a plane.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
The part about chucking him out of a plane was funny though.
My son had reservations about going, but he was curious and willing to
check it out. It was kind of an experiment to see how the majority
live. He was there 4 hours. I told him if he didn't like it he did not
have to go back. I said he should have told the math teacher that he
hadn't learned this "stuff" yet.
Anyway, I am bordering on depression here. I love the idea of
unschooling. I have read tons of books, websites, very inspiring
speakers. It all seems to make perfect sense. Then you find yourself in
a group of people, trying to explain yourself and they all think you are
crazy and your kid will grow up to be stupid. And I get insecure and
think I am ruining their lives.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dawn Adams [mailto:Wishbone@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 8:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] back again and discouraged
>What prompted all this, I guess, is that this week I put my kids inhe
>public school for one day. Two reasons: my 6 yo wanted to go. He was
>curious were all his friends go every day. I wanted him to see for
>himself. I wanted my 11 year old to be aware of his choices. He hated
>it. He said "the clock never moves, its so boring", and most of all,
>was embarrassed that he didn't know the math they were doing. He wasin
>tears that night because he did not want to go back because he feltIt was fair for the 6 yr old I guess but why on earth send the 11 yr
>stupid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
old if he didn't ask to go? You're 11 yr old didn't need to go to school
to know that it was a choice. Now he's suffering because of it. I think
an apology to him is in order.
>He also was reprimanded for getting a drink of water and was afraidto
>ask to go to the bathroom. My 6 year old was reprimanded forthrowing
>his lunch garbage away before he was supposed to. I was a wreck allday
>worrying how they were getting along. I still want them at home withmost
>me, but I want them to make the choice. I hung around the school
>of the day, and some of the things I witnessed were scarey. Butthat's
>a whole other subject.I'm not sure it's fair to send a kid to school without him asking to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
go because you want the choice to be his. Unschooling can also be a
family choice and you can explain that choice to him and give him
information to read about unschooling. There's lots of info about school
too he can read without being sent into the lion's den. If you wanted
him to make an informed choice about parachuting you wouldn't chuck him
out of a plane.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/4/04 9:48:25 AM, flyerrod@... writes:
<< My son had reservations about going, but he was curious and willing to
check it out. It was kind of an experiment to see how the majority
live. >>
Still sounds like it was something you decided for him, if he had
reservations but was willing. If he had said "NO, I don't want to," would you have
pressed?
The reason this is important to consider (not to tell us, but to consider
inside you) is that if it wounded him, but he had no choice, school didn't wound
him and unschooling didn't wound him. Putting him in a harmful situation
wounded him.
-=-I love the idea of
unschooling. I have read tons of books, websites, very inspiring
speakers. It all seems to make perfect sense. -=-
You could love the idea of skydiving, and collect coffeetable books about it,
and videos, and go to air shows and collect parachutes, but unless you jump
out of a plane, it's not something you've really done.
There's another "out of a plane" moment for you. <g>
If you LOVE bicycles and bicyclists and you collect the books and videos and
bicycles but you yourself never get on one and ride. . .
-=-you find yourself in
a group of people, trying to explain yourself and they all think you are
crazy and your kid will grow up to be stupid.-=-
Suggestions:
don't explain if you don't feel competent to explain
become more confident by getting on your bike and jumping out of an airplane
<bwg>
Sandra
<< My son had reservations about going, but he was curious and willing to
check it out. It was kind of an experiment to see how the majority
live. >>
Still sounds like it was something you decided for him, if he had
reservations but was willing. If he had said "NO, I don't want to," would you have
pressed?
The reason this is important to consider (not to tell us, but to consider
inside you) is that if it wounded him, but he had no choice, school didn't wound
him and unschooling didn't wound him. Putting him in a harmful situation
wounded him.
-=-I love the idea of
unschooling. I have read tons of books, websites, very inspiring
speakers. It all seems to make perfect sense. -=-
You could love the idea of skydiving, and collect coffeetable books about it,
and videos, and go to air shows and collect parachutes, but unless you jump
out of a plane, it's not something you've really done.
There's another "out of a plane" moment for you. <g>
If you LOVE bicycles and bicyclists and you collect the books and videos and
bicycles but you yourself never get on one and ride. . .
-=-you find yourself in
a group of people, trying to explain yourself and they all think you are
crazy and your kid will grow up to be stupid.-=-
Suggestions:
don't explain if you don't feel competent to explain
become more confident by getting on your bike and jumping out of an airplane
<bwg>
Sandra
Nisha
He (at 14) was told to
were! <G> Quarts, halves, 3/8ths. It all suddenly made sense!
We have containers and measuring cups that are some of my kids'
favorite bath toys. They pretend to make liquid nitrogen and magic
potions in the tub all the time. But they also get the whole fraction
thing. LOL
Nisha
> fill the container 3/4 full----and suddenly the light went on! Hecame home to tell me that he finally understood what fractions
were! <G> Quarts, halves, 3/8ths. It all suddenly made sense!
We have containers and measuring cups that are some of my kids'
favorite bath toys. They pretend to make liquid nitrogen and magic
potions in the tub all the time. But they also get the whole fraction
thing. LOL
Nisha