Seth W Bartels

>They have lots of food restrictions, limited media exposure> disney is
evil tv is evil, coorporate monsters that will make >your child
materialistic, unimaginative and violent) and rots >your brain,

fitting under most of your description here (yes, i admit it...i'm a
crunchy mama! don't shoot!), i'd like to take a moment and address some
issues that have popped up for me. i do believe that disney is evil.
the company's motive in existing is to manipulate children and their
families to make profits. i don't fear that my children (who happen to
adore disney everything despite my disdain) will fall into this trap,
however, because we talk a lot about advertising, commercialism, and
materialism in this house and i believe that they're saavy enough to
avoid it. doesn't discount that disney sucks and materialism is a huge
problem in the world. i don't think it's a negative or snobby thing to
be aware of these problems.


>waldorfy toys, no plastic toys,

we prefer to buy (and make) these sorts of toys because we choose to try
and tread lightly on the earth. i think it does an injustice to our
children and their future to ignore the harm that the manufacturing of
these products does, not to mention what mess is left behind when they
break and go to the landfill. and that doesn't even touch the child
labor issues. this also doesn't feel like a snobbery issue. my kids
have plasticy toys that they've gotten as gifts, or they bought for
themselves, and even a few that we've bought because they really wanted
them...but i don't think it's unwise to try and choose lower impact toys
and talk to your kids about the issues and why it's important to you.

>Organic foods only, no sugar or hydrogenated whatever. (don't >eat the
baked goods). Just kidding, some is fine. But, very >restrictive in my
opinion.

i know it sounds restrictive...and maybe it is with the folks you're
talking about specifically. but for my family, it's about values. we
value healthy bodies and a healthy earth as well as personal choices.
and instead of being a dictator and demanding my kids never play with
plastic toys or eat refined foods, we talk to them about what the impact
of these choices are and let them choose. i'm a crunchy veggie mama who
prefers certain things, but has kids with their own minds who have eaten
ham and fish when away from home(tho veggie as well) and candy (sometimes
including food coloring) and cookies (even with unwholesome ingredients),
play with plastic toys when they want (but usually choose not to), and
watch plenty of advertising-overloaded, schooly type cartoons by choice.
not all of us are as judgmental or restrictive as you've experienced!

>But, I do feel a little judged when I bring a pepsi or fast >food for
lunch.
>Laura J

i hear ya! the same happens to me. but does it really matter if you're
ok with your choices? for me, the twinge of embarassment comes from
knowing it's perhaps not the best thing i could be ingesting. but, if i
want it...i eat it anyways and ignore the snootiness. :)

lisa








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In a message dated 10/1/04 11:46:13 AM, ecotopian@... writes:

<< i do believe that disney is evil.
the company's motive in existing is to manipulate children and their
families to make profits. >>

If making a profit is evil, our entire culture is awash in guilt.

Buy stock in Disney and then you will WANT them to make profit.

-=-my children (who happen to
adore disney everything despite my disdain) . . . doesn't discount that
disney sucks-=-

It sounds just on that one reading that your hatred of Disney is stronger
than your regard for what your children adore.

Sandra

Laura Johnson

Hi Lisa,
It sounds like you are one of the crunchy mamas that I like hanging out with. Most are totally cool about things, most of my friends are in the crunchy category. We fit there more than we fit in the mainstream, but mostly with parenting issues. Most are into organics, which is great, if you can cook and can afford it. Most of my friends are in a co-op, in fact, I'm one of the few that aren't. The cooking and money issue for us. We definitely talk a great deal about commercialism and materialism with our son. My folks work for Disney seasonally, so we have a lot of it around from them.

I guess I was mostly referring to the snobbery you referred to. Kind of the superior attitude that you would find in most any group if it were large enough. But, it's sometimes hard to have such high standards for everything that people can't relax about things. They like to brag that their kids have never had any processed sugar or artificial dyes. Granted, their kids are young, but that is such an impossible standard to meet. What pressure. The group of moms I was referring to, and I have to admit, it sounded like a generalization, so I apologize for that, these moms are full of unsolicited advice, and have even done the shame-shame finger thing to me for letting my 3 year old watch Star Wars. I wasn't around them for long. Very uptight and too serious about every little thing. I moved on. But, most of my friends are fairly crunchy mamas, so I'm definitely not "anti crunchy", I'm "anti-judgmental" and pro live and let live.
Laura

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Seth W Bartels

>Most are into organics, which is great, if you can cook and >can afford
it. Most of my friends are in a co-op, in fact, >I'm one of the few that
aren't. The cooking and money issue >for us.

i hear ya on the money front! we can't afford much of what we'd prefer
to buy these days even through our co-op. it's a bummer how expensive it
can be to buy wholesome, clean food. we are fortunate enough to have a
friend with a farm that isn't certified, but they don't use pesticides or
chemicals on their crops, so we buy from them and grow whatever we can,
which helps a ton with the cost issue. what about cooking is an issue
for you?

>We definitely talk a great deal about commercialism and >materialism
with our son. My folks work for Disney >seasonally, so we have a lot of
it around from them.

it's funny how kids so young can be so interested in such things...i
wouldn't lecture my kids about it or take the disney stuff away or
anything, but they're interested (probably because we are!), so we talk.


>I guess I was mostly referring to the snobbery you referred >to. Kind
of the superior attitude that you would find in most >any group if it
were large enough.

i do know what you're referring to. seems there are always people out
there dishing *the truth*. ;) even worse when they expect that you'll
bow down and follow their lead. in my experience, it's not the crunchy
mamas...they're the most in tune and genuine folks i know. but snobbery
comes in lots of coats...no one group or type of person is immune.:)

>But, it's sometimes hard to have such high standards for >everything
that people can't relax about things.

no kidding. having standards and expectations for anyone but yourself
never does any good! you can't force someone to be other than
themselves...trying only brings loads of undue frustration.

>They like to brag that their kids have never had any processed >sugar or
artificial dyes. Granted, their kids are young, but >that is such an
impossible standard to meet. What pressure.

ugh. that sound corny. what a thing to brag about. maybe be astounded
at the sudden realization...but brag? isn't there more to enjoy about
kids? sheesh. can't blame you for being annoyed.

>The group of moms I was referring to, and I have to admit, it >sounded
like a generalization, so I apologize for that, these >moms are full of
unsolicited advice, and have even done the >shame-shame finger thing to
me for letting my 3 year old watch >Star Wars. I wasn't around them for
long. Very uptight and >too serious about every little thing. I moved
on.

good for you! it certainly doesn't make sense to hang out with people
like that. life's too short. especially when there are plenty of
wonderful, loving, non-judgmental folks out there who can help you shine.
:)

>But, most of my friends are fairly crunchy mamas, so I'm >definitely not
"anti crunchy",

glad to hear it!

>I'm "anti-judgmental" and pro live and let live.

me too. :) nice to have met you!

lisa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Seth W Bartels

><< i do believe that disney is evil.
>the company's motive in existing is to manipulate children and >their
>families to make profits. >>

>If making a profit is evil, our entire culture is awash in >guilt.

i didn't say that making a profit is evil. i said that manipulating
children to make a profit is. i watched a documentary in sociology class
in college about disney. it showed a training seminar for their
marketing employees and i was appalled. the guy actually said,
*anti-social behavior in pursuit of a product is a good thing.* they
wanted to get kids to get so wrapped up in their products that they'd bug
their parents to death and buy stuff. granted, anyone selling anything
needs to use tactics to sell their wares...but this seems below the belt
to me and i choose to not buy from them because of it. exercising my own
consumer choice.

>Buy stock in Disney and then you will WANT them to make profit.

i would never buy stock in a company i didn't believe in just to make
money. it would be effective in amassing riches, no doubt, but that's
not the goal of my life.

>-=-my children (who happen to
>adore disney everything despite my disdain) . . . doesn't >discount
that
>disney sucks-=-

>It sounds just on that one reading that your hatred of Disney >is
stronger
>than your regard for what your children adore.

>Sandra

i disagree. my children still adore the cartoons. they still watch
them. i don't sit over them stewing about how i don't like disney and
muddy their experience. in fact, i sit alongside them frequently and
enjoy the movies. how does thinking disney sucks as a company mean i'm
not regarding what my children adore? i fail to see the connection?

lisa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/2/2004 11:30:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
ecotopian@... writes:

i didn't say that making a profit is evil. i said that manipulating
children to make a profit is. i watched a documentary in sociology class
in college about disney. it showed a training seminar for their
marketing employees and i was appalled. the guy actually said,
*anti-social behavior in pursuit of a product is a good thing.* they
wanted to get kids to get so wrapped up in their products that they'd bug
their parents to death and buy stuff. granted, anyone selling anything
needs to use tactics to sell their wares...but this seems below the belt
to me and i choose to not buy from them because of it. exercising my own
consumer choice.<<<<<

Do you own a car? Drink beer?

Both good examples (but certainly not the only ones!!!) of folks so wrapped
up in products that they can't see straight.

Silly

~Kelly







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/2/04 9:31:01 AM, ecotopian@... writes:

<< i disagree. my children still adore the cartoons. they still watch
them. i don't sit over them stewing about how i don't like disney and
muddy their experience. in fact, i sit alongside them frequently and
enjoy the movies. how does thinking disney sucks as a company mean i'm
not regarding what my children adore? i fail to see the connection? >>

Just that negativity is negative.

Disney didn't ship negativity into your home.

Sandra

Seth W Bartels

i don't feel like i'm being unreasonable or negative at all...i think
disney sucks, i think brussel sprouts suck, and black raspberry seeds
stuck in my teeth suck. maybe its the terminology you're reacting to?
i'm kind of confused about what the big deal is. aren't there things you
dislike greatly? maybe people treating children or animals cruelly?
does that mean you bring negativity into your home simply by having a
preference? i don't see the parallel here.

please explain?
lisa

On Sat, 2 Oct 2004 15:58:33 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:

In a message dated 10/2/04 9:31:01 AM, ecotopian@... writes:

<< i disagree. my children still adore the cartoons. they still watch
them. i don't sit over them stewing about how i don't like disney and
muddy their experience. in fact, i sit alongside them frequently and
enjoy the movies. how does thinking disney sucks as a company mean i'm
not regarding what my children adore? i fail to see the connection? >>

Just that negativity is negative.

Disney didn't ship negativity into your home.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Seth W Bartels

>i didn't say that making a profit is evil. i said that >manipulating
>children to make a profit is. i watched a documentary in >sociology
class
>in college about disney. it showed a training seminar for >their
>marketing employees and i was appalled. the guy actually >said,
>*anti-social behavior in pursuit of a product is a good >thing.* they
>wanted to get kids to get so wrapped up in their products that >they'd
bug
>their parents to death and buy stuff. granted, anyone >selling
anything
>needs to use tactics to sell their wares...but this seems >below the
belt
>to me and i choose to not buy from them because of it. >exercising my
own
>consumer choice.<<<<<

>Do you own a car? Drink beer?

yes, we own a car. no, i don't drink beer, but my husband does.

>Both good examples (but certainly not the only ones!!!) of >folks so
wrapped
>up in products that they can't see straight.

sorry, but i don't understand what you're saying here...could you please
clarify?

>Silly

what is?

lisa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/2/2004 10:05:18 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
ecotopian@... writes:
i don't feel like i'm being unreasonable or negative at all...i think
disney sucks, i think brussel sprouts suck, and black raspberry seeds
stuck in my teeth suck. maybe its the terminology you're reacting to?
---------

Very negative terminology. Brussel sprouts just sit there. They have no
intent or motivation. If you don't like them, that's something in and about you
yourself. And that's fine. My husband hates peas. I don't much like bell
peppers. But Holly does, and that's wonderful for her.

I always hope that my own prejudices or aversions are not passed on to my
children. If they can be happier than I am, more open, and more positive in any
aspect or corner of life, I rejoice.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 10/1/04 12:46 PM, Seth W Bartels at ecotopian@... wrote:

> i do believe that disney is evil.
> the company's motive in existing is to manipulate children and their
> families to make profits.

How is that any different than any other company? They are all out to
manipulate us into believing we'd be happier if we traded our money for
their product.

Disney targets children but so do many other companies.

> i watched a documentary in sociology class
> in college about disney. it showed a training seminar for their
> marketing employees and i was appalled. the guy actually said,
> *anti-social behavior in pursuit of a product is a good thing.* they
> wanted to get kids to get so wrapped up in their products that they'd bug
> their parents to death and buy stuff.

And if you let go of what Disney detractors are saying you should be seeing
and look around at real life (outside your own home full of Disney lovers!
;-), are Disney's tactics working any better than anyone else's? Are we as a
society drowning in a sea of Disney? (The Disney Stores in our area are all
closed.) My daughter likes what she likes and only a small percentage was
every Disney.

Perhaps you're over sensitive to Disney because your kids love Disney?

> we prefer to buy (and make) these sorts of toys because we choose to try
> and tread lightly on the earth.

I think you're thinking will be clearer if you identify the "we" as your
husband and you rather than "we" the family.

There's a difference between sharing why I make the decisions I do and
sharing information to influence the decisions my daughter makes.

> i think it does an injustice to our
> children and their future to ignore the harm that the manufacturing of
> these products does, not to mention what mess is left behind when they
> break and go to the landfill.

I choose paper bags over plastic. I use as little plastic wrap as possible.
I prefer glass bottles over plastic (though it's getting harder to do that.)
None of those are perfect choices and each impacts the environment in its
own way. But it's a principle and makes me feel better.

*BUT* I'm betting more plastic comes into one Wal-Mart wrapped around
pallets of boxes in one day than I could possibly use to wrap food with in
my entire life even if I were the Saran Wrap queen.

I'm betting there's more plastic wrapping a single building that's being
worked on than my daughter could throw out in all the toys she's ever owned.
(And she has a lot of plastic.)

I think even if every toy ever made ends up in the land fill it isn't even a
tiny percentage of the plastic that's wasted elsewhere, especially in
manufacturing, construction and shipping.

The impact of the guilt on a child over liking a toy made of plastic is
*way* out of proportion to the impact of the toy on the environment.

I think if we want to share our values on practices where the harm is only
potential and is several layers removed from us, it helps kids see the
issues more clearly if we aren't sharing our values in ways that will
influence their choices. Kids shouldn't feel they're in the position of
choosing between a plastic toy or a clean environment. They should choose
non-plastic because it's an important principle to them, not because they
believe giving up one plastic toy or a dozen plastic toys will have a
significant impact on the environment.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/3/2004 2:10:16 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
Kids shouldn't feel they're in the position of
choosing between a plastic toy or a clean environment.
---------------------------

That just needed repeating.

Too many children suffer too much guilt where they could have hope and joy.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

SHYRLEY WILLIAMS

SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 10/3/2004 2:10:16 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
Kids shouldn't feel they're in the position of
choosing between a plastic toy or a clean environment.
---------------------------

That just needed repeating.

Too many children suffer too much guilt where they could have hope and joy.

Sandra


but why shouldn't kids also be responsible for the environment they will inherit?

Thats a bit like saying don't try and steer them toowards a healthy diet so they wont be storing up health problems for themselves in future like teeth that need fillings and heart disease.

When your child is 30 with a mouth full of holes, heart disease and a polluted environment they ain't gonna thank you.

Children, I've found, are very sensitive to things like the environment or animal welfare and generally want to take part and do their bit. Heather in particular gets quite cross when she sees adults mucking up what she calls 'her world'. She reckons all us old folks are gonna die and leave her generation with the mess. She's joined Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth with her own money too.

Shyrley



---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 10/4/04 4:55 AM, SHYRLEY WILLIAMS at shyrley.williams@...
wrote:

> but why shouldn't kids also be responsible for the environment they will
> inherit?

And shouldn't kids know how to write and do math and read too?

Thinking in terms of what kids should know and believe is wandering into
school think. Discussing ways to "make sure" kids believe something (though
we really can't!) are better for conventional parenting lists.

But that doesn't mean our only option is to leave it up to chance! We can
put respect for the child first and *still* pass on our values. (They may
not adopt our values, but trying to impose our values doesn't guarantee
they'll adopt them either.)

My daughter lives with someone who lives the values of caring about the
environment. I share why I make the choices I do for myself about minimizing
limited-use plastic, walking when it's feasible, using a car that gets good
gas mileage and so on. That has left her free to think about it and make the
choices for herself because I'm allowing her to think about the idea
separate from herself.

Once an idea makes sense to someone, then people can decide whether the
ideas are important enough to them to change their choices.

(And my daughter does care about the environment. But she was free to choose
not to.)

But if we tangle up passing on the values with helping them make the "right"
choices according to the value system we want them to adopt, then we're
doing exactly what school parents do by making kids feel wrong for prefering
fun to school work.

(And with as much credibility. It would be spinning a huge whopping lie to
stand in front of a building wrapped in plastic and try to get the child to
understand how that plastic toy they want has a negative impact on the
environment. Giving up a plastic toy should be a personal choice based on
principle because the toy has essentially nil impact on the environment
compared to the plastic used in manufacturing and so forth.)

Free choice works better than guilt. For one thing, free choice allows
someone to adopt the values whenever the feel they make sense. Guilt gives
them the choice between adopting values with guilt for wanting something
that goes against the values or rejecting the values in order to reject the
guilt and get what they want.

> Thats a bit like saying don't try and steer them toowards a healthy diet so
> they wont be storing up health problems for themselves in future like teeth
> that need fillings and heart disease.

Same thing. We can live our values and let them choose. We can choose to
prepare what we feel are healthy foods and make healthy food easily
available while also allowing them to make their own choices at restaurants
and requests for snacks from the grocery story or choosing an alternative
(like cereal) if they don't like dinner.

Brushing teeth has a special factor in that kids often don't like to do it.
But we can remove as many negative aspects of brushing teeth as possible
like brushing without paste and doing it with them and for them and all the
other suggestions that have wandered through here. And we can tell them why
we choose to brush.

Joyce

averyschmidt

> When your child is 30 with a mouth full of holes, heart disease
and a polluted environment they ain't gonna thank you.

And if you "steer" them toward the "right" foods, who are they gonna
thank if they end up with a mouth full of holes and/or heart disease
anyway? Those things seem to have at least as big a genetic
component as anything else. Teeth and hearts don't last forever no
matter how much we might control our kids lives.

> Heather in particular gets quite cross when she sees adults
mucking up what she calls 'her world'.

We all "muck up the world" to some extent. I do a lot of shopping
at the health food store, and I'm always amused at the young,
idealistic cashiers there who are self-righteous about how lightly
they tread on the earth (by buying all natural peanut butter for
example) and then hop in their cars to drive home. The computer
you're tying on had at least as much impact on the environment as a
plastic toy your child might love.

Patti

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/4/04 2:55:53 AM, shyrley.williams@... writes:

<< When your child is 30 with a mouth full of holes, heart disease and a
polluted environment they ain't gonna thank you. >>

If a child turns 30 and does NOT have those problems, but did suffer a
childhood of a mother who was more interested in environmental scare stories than in
their feelings, that's worse. And that second one I've seen lots.

-=-Children, I've found, are very sensitive to things like the environment or
animal welfare and generally want to take part and do their bit.-=-

If their bit is very inconvenient and they've been told it will help LOTS
when really it hardly makes a blip, how honest is that?

-=- Heather in particular gets quite cross when she sees adults mucking up
what she calls 'her world'. She reckons all us old folks are gonna die and leave
her generation with the mess. She's joined Greenpeace and Friends of the
Earth with her own money too.-=-

If she wants to do that, good!
If she spends all her energy imagining something that's not realistic, that's
not as good.

There were times in the past when pollution was worse. The nineteenth
century left the early 20th century with a lot of pollution. They left other
generations with a mess. My parents left my generation with a social and
emotional mess. But they were dealing with world wars and other realities not of
their doing, and that they couldn't have prevented.

The world moves on. Depriving children of plastic toys will no more turn
the tide than throwing a virgin in a volcano will change geology. If it makes
the parents feel better to make their own toys, that's cool IF the children
like those toys better. If the parents insist the child lives and likes to
suit the parents, that's not as cool.

Sandra

SHYRLEY WILLIAMS

Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
on 10/4/04 4:55 AM, SHYRLEY WILLIAMS at shyrley.williams@...
wrote:

> but why shouldn't kids also be responsible for the environment they will
> inherit?

And shouldn't kids know how to write and do math and read too?

Thinking in terms of what kids should know and believe is wandering into
school think. Discussing ways to "make sure" kids believe something (though
we really can't!) are better for conventional parenting lists.

But that doesn't mean our only option is to leave it up to chance! We can
put respect for the child first and *still* pass on our values. (They may
not adopt our values, but trying to impose our values doesn't guarantee
they'll adopt them either.)

My daughter lives with someone who lives the values of caring about the
environment. I share why I make the choices I do for myself about minimizing
limited-use plastic, walking when it's feasible, using a car that gets good
gas mileage and so on. That has left her free to think about it and make the
choices for herself because I'm allowing her to think about the idea
separate from herself.

Once an idea makes sense to someone, then people can decide whether the
ideas are important enough to them to change their choices.

(And my daughter does care about the environment. But she was free to choose
not to.)

But if we tangle up passing on the values with helping them make the "right"
choices according to the value system we want them to adopt, then we're
doing exactly what school parents do by making kids feel wrong for prefering
fun to school work.

(And with as much credibility. It would be spinning a huge whopping lie to
stand in front of a building wrapped in plastic and try to get the child to
understand how that plastic toy they want has a negative impact on the
environment. Giving up a plastic toy should be a personal choice based on
principle because the toy has essentially nil impact on the environment
compared to the plastic used in manufacturing and so forth.)

Free choice works better than guilt. For one thing, free choice allows
someone to adopt the values whenever the feel they make sense. Guilt gives
them the choice between adopting values with guilt for wanting something
that goes against the values or rejecting the values in order to reject the
guilt and get what they want.


Same thing. We can live our values and let them choose. We can choose to
prepare what we feel are healthy foods and make healthy food easily
available while also allowing them to make their own choices at restaurants
and requests for snacks from the grocery story or choosing an alternative
(like cereal) if they don't like dinner.

Brushing teeth has a special factor in that kids often don't like to do it.
But we can remove as many negative aspects of brushing teeth as possible
like brushing without paste and doing it with them and for them and all the
other suggestions that have wandered through here. And we can tell them why
we choose to brush.

Joyce



I never said I didn't offer them choices. I explained my views and let them find out for themselves. They make some choices I don't like but they are free to do so.

But I also think that they, and we and society are gonna have to make some unpalatable choices soon enough whether George Bush believes in global warming or not. Leting 'natural consequences' teach hard lessons can sometimes be cruel.

Shyrley



---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Seth W Bartels

>How is that any different than any other company? They are all >out to
>manipulate us into believing we'd be happier if we traded our >money for
>their product.

like i said before, advertising makes sense...it is a pretty necessary
component to being a successful business. they're different because of
the way they go about specifically manipulating children and families.

>Disney targets children but so do many other companies.

and i prefer not to send my money their way either. if it came to my
child really wanting something that just happened to be disney related, i
wouldn't choose against buying it simply because of the association.

>And if you let go of what Disney detractors are saying you >should be
seeing
>and look around at real life (outside your own home full of >Disney
lovers!
>;-), are Disney's tactics working any better than anyone >else's? Are we
as a
>society drowning in a sea of Disney? (The Disney Stores in our >area are
all
>closed.) My daughter likes what she likes and only a small >percentage
was
>every Disney.

i have no tendency to follow behind disney detractors and their beliefs
and it doesn't seem relevant how successful or unsuccessful disney even
is as a company. my kids like what they like and a small part of that is
disney as well. i don't lecture them about their likes. i don't refuse
to buy her things if they happen to be disney oriented. i'm just saying
that i don't like the company. what is so wrong with that? i don't
believe that my house is muddied with negativity simply because i hold an
opinion about something. i don't dominate my household with my opinions.


>Perhaps you're over sensitive to Disney because your kids love >Disney?

i don't know why that would be. and i don't feel like i'm being overly
sensitive here. maybe i'm not communicating effectively?

>> we prefer to buy (and make) these sorts of toys because we >>choose to
try
>> and tread lightly on the earth.

>I think you're thinking will be clearer if you identify the >"we" as
your
>husband and you rather than "we" the family.

that is what i meant. i never suggested it was a collective we, but i
suppose it wasn't clear either.

>There's a difference between sharing why I make the decisions >I do and
>sharing information to influence the decisions my daughter >makes.

i agree wholeheartedly and i don't believe i'm prejudicing my children
against disney by discussing my views of their company on an email list
that they don't participate in. in real life, we watch disney stuff
together regardless of my opinion of the company.

>I choose paper bags over plastic. I use as little plastic wrap >as
possible.
>I prefer glass bottles over plastic (though it's getting >harder to do
that.)
>None of those are perfect choices and each impacts the >environment in
its
>own way. But it's a principle and makes me feel better.

i belive that every little seemingly insignificant bit we do does make a
difference. if everyone chose to ignore their personal impact on the
earth, think of how much bigger the mess would be. still, it is personal
choice and i'm not a dictator about these things either. my kids pick up
garbage in the streets and at the park because they care and its a
behavior that our family models. they recycle because it's normal in our
house. they carry our cloth bags into the store because it's fun. they
help in the garden because they like seeing things grow and sharing my
passion for it. i don't coerce my children into any of these tasks.

>*BUT* I'm betting more plastic comes into one Wal-Mart wrapped >around
>pallets of boxes in one day than I could possibly use to wrap >food with
in
>my entire life even if I were the Saran Wrap queen.

no kidding. and that's hard to deal with. but instead of freaking out
about it and drowning in guilt, fear and worry, i remain steadfast in my
beliefs and continue to do everything i can to keep my personal
contribution to a minimum.

>I'm betting there's more plastic wrapping a single building >that's
being
>worked on than my daughter could throw out in all the toys >she's ever
owned.
>(And she has a lot of plastic.)

yes, this is also most certainly true.

>I think even if every toy ever made ends up in the land fill >it isn't
even a
>tiny percentage of the plastic that's wasted elsewhere, >especially in
>manufacturing, construction and shipping.

but does that mean that being aware of potential harm in making our
decisions is negative? my kids buy what they want and are very clear
about their choices. they're learning a lot on their own about what's
worth buying and what's a waste of money.

>The impact of the guilt on a child over liking a toy made of >plastic is
>*way* out of proportion to the impact of the toy on the >environment.

i agree completely here and i think this is the sticking point. i don't
guilt my children about their choices. i'm proud of my kids and i love
them. if they really want something and it happens to be plastic, i'm
not saying that i won't get it. i'm just saying that that isn't
typically the case. we have an extremely limited budget and the kids
honestly rarely get gifts. when asked what they'd like, they usually ask
for something that is easily made. we sometimes make things together
(which makes them feel amazingly accomplished), or my dh and i will come
up with something. i also would prefer to buy something made by an
actual person. my kids are delighted and thankful for everything they
have. they have never expressed any sentiment like *i don't like your
homemade dollies mama, i wish i had a plastic baby from the store.*
granted, this wouldn't work if they chose a leap pad or something...i
can't sew up one of those. ;) i would buy it if we could afford it.
there are a lot of factors at play in our lives and we all make value
based decisions within those guidelines. i don't see how any of this is
negatively impacting my kids.

>Kids shouldn't feel they're in the position of
>choosing between a plastic toy or a clean environment.

i agree. and my children don't. they don't have any grasp on just how in
danger the environment is. i don't choose to fill them with fear and
worry.

>They should choose
>non-plastic because it's an important principle to them, not >because
they
>believe giving up one plastic toy or a dozen plastic toys will >have a
>significant impact on the environment.

this hasn't become an issue in our home. my kids don't freak out about
having plastic toys. they have fun with them if they're entertaining.
we just don't happen to have a lot. we don't have a lot of anything.
if, when they're older, they ask for plastic things, we'll look into the
reviews of the product and buy them if we can. money is a huge issue for
us and we prefer to avoid buying anything that will end up being junk
(whether made from wood or plastic or anything else.) if they want to
spend their hard earned money on things that are plastic, no problem.
it's their choice. i've had to turn down buying beautifully handmade
things that they've wanted many more times than plastic simply because of
the cost.

lisa

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Elizabeth Hill

** Too many children suffer too much guilt where they could have hope
and joy.

Sandra


but why shouldn't kids also be responsible for the environment they will
inherit?**


I thought, when looking at a larger chunk of Sandra's quote that it was
clear that she felt that large corporations should take on a much bigger
percentage of responsibility and guilt than little children should.

Betsy

Seth W Bartels

>My daughter lives with someone who lives the values of caring >about the
>environment. I share why I make the choices I do for myself >about
minimizing
>limited-use plastic, walking when it's feasible, using a car >that gets
good
>gas mileage and so on. That has left her free to think about >it and
make the
>choices for herself because I'm allowing her to think about >the idea
>separate from herself.

this is the way i feel about it as well. i choose to do certain things
and live a certain way. i talk about why and my children are free to
take it or leave it.

>Once an idea makes sense to someone, then people can decide >whether the
>ideas are important enough to them to change their choices.

right. my children aren't even making choices that are coming into
conflict with my principles...this all started from me discussing why a
person might be anti-plastic and like *waldorfy* toys.

>(And my daughter does care about the environment. But she was >free to
choose
>not to.)

my children are just as free. if they throw garbage on the ground, i
might mention something about how it could blow into the stream and cause
problems for the wildlife living there or i might just pick it up.
mostly, my kids don't do that because they see a garbage can and it makes
sense to them to just put it there.

>But if we tangle up passing on the values with helping them >make the
"right"
>choices according to the value system we want them to adopt, >then we're
>doing exactly what school parents do by making kids feel wrong >for
preferring
>fun to school work.

i'm unclear on the parallel here. talking about the impact of plastic on
the environment in a time unrelated to them wanting to purchase or play
with something that happens to be plastic is not the same as undue
influence or controlling their choices. if they hear what i'm saying and
choose to buy something else because it makes sense to them, why is that
negative? they're exercising their choice.

>(And with as much credibility. It would be spinning a huge >whopping lie
to
>stand in front of a building wrapped in plastic and try to get >the
child to
>understand how that plastic toy they want has a negative >impact on the
>environment. Giving up a plastic toy should be a personal >choice based
on
>principle because the toy has essentially nil impact on the >environment
>compared to the plastic used in manufacturing and so forth.)

i disagree. just because it's small, doesn't make it nonexistent. if
you add up all the little toys and the batteries and the next generation
that replaces them, it's very significant. i do, however, agree that it
should be their choice free of guilt. in our home, it is...regardless of
my strong feelings.

>Free choice works better than guilt. For one thing, free >choice allows
>someone to adopt the values whenever the feel they make sense. >Guilt
gives
>them the choice between adopting values with guilt for wanting
>something
>that goes against the values or rejecting the values in order >to reject
the
>guilt and get what they want.

why is the assumption that there is guilt necessarily involved here??

>Brushing teeth has a special factor in that kids often don't >like to do
it.
>But we can remove as many negative aspects of brushing teeth >as
possible
>like brushing without paste and doing it with them and for >them and all
the
>other suggestions that have wandered through here. And we can >tell them
why
>we choose to brush.

this is a separate, but difficult issue for our home...i'm glad it
happened to come up! my kids choose when and if to brush their teeth and
now two of the three (the one without decay being a baby) have pretty
severe decay. because i wasn't more insistent about things, my child has
had to undergo a lot of avoidable fear and pain and we've all had to
sacrifice necessities to pay for the repairs. more and more cavities are
coming and the consequences still aren't strong enough motivation. i'm
getting worried about it! anyone else have this come up??

lisa

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Seth W Bartels

>We all "muck up the world" to some extent. I do a lot of >shopping
>at the health food store, and I'm always amused at the young,
>idealistic cashiers there who are self-righteous about how >lightly
>they tread on the earth (by buying all natural peanut butter >for
>example) and then hop in their cars to drive home.

haven't we all been young and idealistic at one time? actually, i think
that this is where i'm personally at right now being 25! ;) and i don't
think that being idealistic is necessarily bad. we all have
transformations to go through. it takes all kinds of people in this
world and it doesn't seem to do any good to be negative about how
misguided some people are.

anyhow, as far as being environmentally friendly goes, it's all a
balancing act for sure. some people choose to go to the extreme to
lessen their footprint on the earth, but most of us just try and do
little things. every little bit does count. this reminds me of when our
family first converted to veganism. it started to consume me that i
couldn't' absolutely avoid animal products in my current life choices. i
didn't have a digital camera, yet wanted to take pictures...film contains
gelatin. i had to make a choice at which was more important. same goes
for buying natural peanut butter and driving a car. maybe they couldn't
work out public transportation or lived too far away to walk but wanted
to eat pure food.

>The computer
>you're tying on had at least as much impact on the environment >as a
>plastic toy your child might love.

true enough...and my kids enjoy it just as much as we do. we all have to
make decisions on what we're going to buy and what we're willing to deal
with as far as the consequences of our actions go. for us, it was worth
it to buy a computer. it may end up being worth it to buy more plastic
toys. who knows? but for now, it isn't an issue.

lisa

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Laura Johnson

My husband's parents were very crunchy while he was growing up. They lived in a converted school bus in a campground, ate only natural foods, recycled before it was popular etc...

My husband is about as uncrunchy as you can get.

By the time his brother came along, ten years later, they changed dramatically. They were living in a house, early daycare, mainstream diet and everything else.

My BIL is way crunchy. Raw foods only, no media at all and will probably move to the woods someday to live off the land. A wonderful, very spiritual person who is totally involved with environmental groups.

No point here, I just find it so interesting to see the differences within the same family over time. The brothers lived very differently and are really different in many ways. Opposite of how their parents lived. Similar in some ways, temperament for one, but so very different in their current lives and beliefs.
Laura J

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Kelly Muzyczka

At 11:40 AM 10/4/2004, you wrote:

>The world moves on. Depriving children of plastic toys will no more turn
>the tide than throwing a virgin in a volcano will change geology. If it
>makes
>the parents feel better to make their own toys, that's cool IF the children
>like those toys better. If the parents insist the child lives and likes to
>suit the parents, that's not as cool.
>
>Sandra


I just went to visit facilities at a Waldorf School (we will be having a
Witches' Ball there) and I was really uncomfortable. The principal is a
friend and has her daughter there and was being a little pushy about how
much my 3 year old was enjoying himself. Hey, there's toys and a
playground, get over it.

But the whole spiel about how all the toys come from nature and it's so
wholistic, etc. Ugh, it's still school, it's still rigid in many areas. I
have become so ANTI-school.


Kelly
I love mankind, it's people I can't stand. --Linus

Elizabeth Hill

** i agree completely here and i think this is the sticking point. i don't
guilt my children about their choices. i'm proud of my kids and i love
them. if they really want something and it happens to be plastic, i'm
not saying that i won't get it. i'm just saying that that isn't
typically the case. we have an extremely limited budget and the kids
honestly rarely get gifts. **

What about going to thrift stores and scooping up some of the piles of
pre-owned small plastic Disneyesque "Happy Meal" toys? The toys have
already been made and purchased, so you aren't personally increasing the
amount of trash in the (future) landfill by buying them. And they are
quite cheap. Would you refrain from doing this?

Betsy

averyschmidt

> and i don't
> think that being idealistic is necessarily bad. we all have
> transformations to go through. it takes all kinds of people in
this
> world and it doesn't seem to do any good to be negative about how
> misguided some people are.

I don't think it's bad either. I'm idealistic about some things.
The word "idealistic" wasn't really necessary to my point, I just
used it to be descriptive I guess. My actual point was that
sometimes self-righteousness goes hand in hand with hypocrisy. I
think it would be hypocritical, for example, to lay guilt on my kids
about plastic toys being bad for the environment (or refuse to buy
them for them) and then go happily type away on my computer.
I do know of people who do just that.

> i had to make a choice at which was more important. same goes
> for buying natural peanut butter and driving a car. maybe they
couldn't
> work out public transportation or lived too far away to walk but
wanted
> to eat pure food.

Yes, they obviously want to eat what they see as "pure food," and
probably live too far away to walk. That's fine. But I find it
amusing to hear someone say, to use a specific example,"Im sorry but
a person can't eat meat and still say they care about the
environment" and then drive home in a car or do something else that
impacts the environment. I don't think it's as amusing, though,
when children are involved and their feelings take a back seat to
whatver the cause is.

Patti

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/4/04 12:46:33 PM, ecotopian@... writes:

<< my children are just as free. if they throw garbage on the ground, i
might mention something about how it could blow into the stream and cause
problems for the wildlife living there or i might just pick it up. >>

I'd say "Pick that up, what are you thinking?"

I'd do the same for a friend who was walking with me, though.
I'd do it to/for a stranger (and have honked and pointed at kids walking home
from school and throwing trash, or people in other cars who threw trash out)

But I've never seen one of my kids throw anything down because from the time
they were little they've seen me pick trash up as I walked along. Sometimes
if I find a plastic grocery bag as we're walking, I just fill it up with trash
as we go.

When they were little and we'd go to the park for our weekly park meetings,
we'd try to go first, and clean up. We'd get broken glass, wipe stickiness
off the picnic table, and pull goat heads (in season).

It wasn't something to even talk about. It was just the thing to do, and
we'd talk about other more fun things while we did it.

-=->(And with as much credibility. It would be spinning a huge >whopping lie
to
>stand in front of a building wrapped in plastic and try to get >the
child to
>understand how that plastic toy they want has a negative >impact on the
>environment.

<<i disagree. just because it's small, doesn't make it nonexistent. -=-


I live in a desert and we've had drought for three years.

If a kid threw a quart of water on the driveway instead of under a tree or on
the flowers, it would be really crazy and kind of infuriating. They know
that water that's being thrown out should be thrown where it will do some good.

When it does rain here, it often just opens up and dumps. We're a mile high
and on a slope, so it bangs down and runs off. Still, if a kid has a quart
of water and throws it in a puddle, that was no harm whatsoever. No sense
walking out in the rain and pouring that water on a plant with it raining.

If the real problem is packaging and not the toy inside, maybe your family
could study that problem and find out why people use so much plastic packaging.
Remember to wonder whether you'd like to buy aspirin out of a common bin, or
mayonnaise from a barrel into your own jar, or milk from a big can. Maybe
you wouldn't mind. It would still be cleaner than owning cows.

There are larger realities.
What's relative IS an important factor.

-=-why is the assumption that there is guilt necessarily involved here??-=-

Because children don't want to do what their mother thinks is stupid.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/4/04 1:29:46 PM, mina@... writes:

<< If the parents insist the child lives and likes to
>suit the parents, that's not as cool. >>

Clarification of that statement.

I mean lives to suit the parents and likes things to suit the parent's likes.

Not lives
and
likes to suit the parents

lives and likes
to suit the parents.

Seth W Bartels

>I'd say "Pick that up, what are you thinking?"

well, i guess it's different for me because my kids are still pretty
young and might innocently forget something like that or be distracted by
what we're on our way to do or maybe it was an accident and had gone
unnoticed. either way, i'd hate to respond abruptly if it wasn't
necessary. most of the time they're offering to pick stuff up that other
people have left.

>When they were little and we'd go to the park for our weekly >park
meetings,
>we'd try to go first, and clean up. We'd get broken glass, >wipe
stickiness
>off the picnic table, and pull goat heads (in season).

i guess the parks here in our small town aren't as littered.
what do you mean when you refer to pulling goat heads??

>There are larger realities.
>What's relative IS an important factor.

yes, it certainly is an important factor. i was just suggesting that
taking action, even in small seemingly insignificant ways is not
meaningless for me. i have a great hope that the little bits that i do
as a person will snowball with the efforts of others to amount to
something larger than myself. i don't think it does any harm to keep
trying to heal the earth.

-=-why is the assumption that there is guilt necessarily involved
here??-=-

>Because children don't want to do what their mother thinks is >stupid.

amen to that! :) and i am very mindful in keeping my *opinions* from
influencing their's unnecessarily. all of my kids are very strong minded
and sure of themselves. i have no reason to believe that they're
secretly harboring guilt about playing with or buying plastic toys. i
never even said that i thought plastic toys were stupid. not here or to
them. i think i see your point though. that what we hold to be true or
important can unduly impact our kids. am i way off here??

lisa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ariella

In our family, *everyone's* values have merit. So, in my family, I don't like Disney, and I boycott Nestle and I care for the environment. That means that in my family my money is not spent on Disney, Nestle or very much plastic.

My kids know why I feel the way I do, we talk about it all the time. Do I hope they grow up with the same values? You betcha. Will they? Not neccessarily. I have three kids who are "old enough" to test the theory so far at 26, 17, and 15. Of those three, two have chosen to also boycott Nestle and and one doesn't care. None of them are much into Disney or plastic, I guess the future will tell if they take the grandkids to Disneyland and buy them plastic toys galore. :-)

Do I care? No. They may do what they chose with their money, just as I chose how to spend my money. When they were younger, they could buy a Butterfinger with their allowance, have one at someone else's home, get one as a gift. They wouldn't get one from me. If they asked for one at the store, I would tell them that they needed to pick a different candy, mommy doesn't buy Nestle.

I love my kids, and I respect their choices, but I respect my own choices as well. Not using a lot of plastic is important to me, it is how I chose to do what I can do as one individual. I do not want my kids to grow up thinking that their individual acts of selflessness, of service, of kindness, have less meaning because they alone can't fix the whole problem. I want them to feel that their actions matter, in some small but significant way.

In the same way I feel that my unschooling my small family of children (well, 5 isn't so small, I guess, but you get the drift) will have a positive impact on our society. Maybe my 5 won't begin to outweigh the hundreds of thousands of kids their age who are schooled, but I still feel that my contribution is important and meaningful, to myself, my family and my community, even if it is small. I also feel that my family's boycott of Nestle, our limiting plastic, and our acknowledging the manipulation and civil rights violations of Disny is important and meaningful.

Perhaps living with parents who are passsionate has it's downside. You certainly do have to wait until you are older to act upon your ultimate decisions on some issues. However, living with passionate people has it's upside. You get to unschool, and you get to have interesting conversations at the dinner table. My children can articulate their beliefs and defend their opinions with aplomb. They do not always agree with us, and sometimes in very important ways. We have a couple who have chosen to go back to public school after years of unschooling, and I am not a fan of public school in the least. That did not influence their decision, and it does not affect our relationship now that they ahve made a different choice than I would make.

Part of my respect for my children is my belief that they will not just follow blindly in my footsteps, but have the education and the personality and the respect for their own beliefs to follow their own heart when the time comes. So far that has proven to be true.

Ariella


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Dawn Adams

Shyrley writes:
<< When your child is 30 with a mouth full of holes, heart disease and a
polluted environment they ain't gonna thank you. >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I have the first and the third. And yes, I thank my parents. In some respects (learning, curiousity, courage) they gave me great examples and much freedom. They laid a foundation for me to make good decisions about how I live and not because I was steered or guided but because so much was possible as a kid. If they'd restricted the candy I might have nicer, less painful teeth, but I might also have some resentment. If my toys had all been wood or I was made to make sacrifices or feel guilty for our environment there might have been some small difference but I might never want to recycle another bottle again.
We have our kids for a couple of decades. Then they have 50 or more years to live by their own rules. You can guide and coerce and cajol and watch them rebel or follow your wishes through thoughtless habit or you can let them have their freedom and watch as they lay a proper foundation for a secure adulthood where decisions are based on their own thoughts and their own feelings.
I just had a molar pulled, went bad because of an old deep cavity and it hurt like sin for a week. I didn't blame my parents. I recognize what that in the bigger picture of the free and loving childhood I had, one that led me to unschooling ultimately, a tooth is a small sacrifice.
Dawn (who's actually lost two teeth, had a couple of root canals and has a mouthful of silver. Ah, but life is good! :) )




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