Various questions
Ren Allen
'1) How do you all feel about weaning for the bottle"
I don't believe in weaning children, I believe they wean themselves
when they're ready. Same for bottle as for breast...but you might
have to deal with some derision from society. AP/unschooling parents
have to learn how to develop a thick skin!;)
It's very , very common for babies and toddlers to wake up at
night...they're growing SO much. If your child sleeps next to you,
it's so much easier to deal with the nighttime stuff. Jalen didn't
sleep all night until recently (I don't know if he really qualifies as
"sleeping all night" now, because he wakes up in the wee hours of the
morning to climb into bed with me or ask me to come down on the floor
with him) and weaned himself around 4.5 years from nursing.
If you believe that children should have freedom to choose their
learning, then weaning is part of that. They let us know what they
need, it's our job to help them get what they need.
As far as principles, it's pretty basic around here. Respect each
others boundaries (that includes bodily and property), solve issues
with negotiation (words) not with harm, treat people/animals/the earth
with kindness.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
I don't believe in weaning children, I believe they wean themselves
when they're ready. Same for bottle as for breast...but you might
have to deal with some derision from society. AP/unschooling parents
have to learn how to develop a thick skin!;)
It's very , very common for babies and toddlers to wake up at
night...they're growing SO much. If your child sleeps next to you,
it's so much easier to deal with the nighttime stuff. Jalen didn't
sleep all night until recently (I don't know if he really qualifies as
"sleeping all night" now, because he wakes up in the wee hours of the
morning to climb into bed with me or ask me to come down on the floor
with him) and weaned himself around 4.5 years from nursing.
If you believe that children should have freedom to choose their
learning, then weaning is part of that. They let us know what they
need, it's our job to help them get what they need.
As far as principles, it's pretty basic around here. Respect each
others boundaries (that includes bodily and property), solve issues
with negotiation (words) not with harm, treat people/animals/the earth
with kindness.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Nicole Willoughby
I don't believe in weaning children, I believe they wean themselves
when they're ready. Same for bottle as for breast...but you might
have to deal with some derision from society. AP/unschooling parents
have to learn how to develop a thick skin!;)
About 1.5 years friends / relatives started getting downright demanding about it.
I finaly had to tell them. My son has no issues with the fact that she is still taking a bottle, because my son is hapy, healthy and content I have no issues ...........my son still taking a bottle is obviouly you issue and youll have to work though it.
Nicole
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
when they're ready. Same for bottle as for breast...but you might
have to deal with some derision from society. AP/unschooling parents
have to learn how to develop a thick skin!;)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>my girls both nursed which has its own story. however Nathaniel ended up on the bottle. Along about 15 months I started getting pressure to take the bottle away.
About 1.5 years friends / relatives started getting downright demanding about it.
I finaly had to tell them. My son has no issues with the fact that she is still taking a bottle, because my son is hapy, healthy and content I have no issues ...........my son still taking a bottle is obviouly you issue and youll have to work though it.
Nicole
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
John & Karen Buxcel
on 2/8/06 10:54 PM, Ren Allen at starsuncloud@... wrote:
falling apart right in front of my eyes. My 7yo son doesn't respect his 4yo
brothers boundaries (bodily), they try to solve issues, but it's more with
4yo constantly screaming that "he's . . .", and my 4yo now is learning to
treat people, especially people smaller than him, in confrontational, unkind
ways. So, while I see, respect, agree with, and love these principles, I
can't help but ask myself "what am I doing wrong?"
:( big, sad sigh . . .
Karen
> As far as principles, it's pretty basic around here. Respect eachThese are our principles, too. Though, lately, I feel like my family is
> others boundaries (that includes bodily and property), solve issues
> with negotiation (words) not with harm, treat people/animals/the earth
> with kindness.
falling apart right in front of my eyes. My 7yo son doesn't respect his 4yo
brothers boundaries (bodily), they try to solve issues, but it's more with
4yo constantly screaming that "he's . . .", and my 4yo now is learning to
treat people, especially people smaller than him, in confrontational, unkind
ways. So, while I see, respect, agree with, and love these principles, I
can't help but ask myself "what am I doing wrong?"
:( big, sad sigh . . .
Karen
[email protected]
<<What am I doing wrong?>>
You probably aren't doing anything wrong. You have a 7 and 4yo. They do that. Continue on with respecting each other and very importantly respecting them, check back in in about 3 years.
Julie S.
You probably aren't doing anything wrong. You have a 7 and 4yo. They do that. Continue on with respecting each other and very importantly respecting them, check back in in about 3 years.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: John & Karen Buxcel <buxcel@...>
Date: Saturday, February 11, 2006 8:31 am
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Various questions
> on 2/8/06 10:54 PM, Ren Allen at starsuncloud@... wrote:
>
> > As far as principles, it's pretty basic around here. Respect each
> > others boundaries (that includes bodily and property), solve issues
> > with negotiation (words) not with harm, treat people/animals/the
> earth> with kindness.
>
>
> These are our principles, too. Though, lately, I feel like my
> family is
> falling apart right in front of my eyes. My 7yo son doesn't
> respect his 4yo
> brothers boundaries (bodily), they try to solve issues, but it's
> more with
> 4yo constantly screaming that "he's . . .", and my 4yo now is
> learning to
> treat people, especially people smaller than him, in
> confrontational, unkind
> ways. So, while I see, respect, agree with, and love these
> principles, I
> can't help but ask myself "what am I doing wrong?"
>
> :( big, sad sigh . . .
> Karen
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Ren Allen
" So, while I see, respect, agree with, and love these principles, I
can't help but ask myself "what am I doing wrong?""
It could be a phase. Sometimes when I'm feeling like everything we
value seems to have gone out the door and the kids are crabby
constantly, things level back out again. Blame biology, the moon,
food...whatever.:)
BUT, sometimes I recognize their behavior as cues for ME. When a child
is not respecting boundaries, I need to be more present. Sometimes I
need to be constantly present, because they aren't in a place of being
able to handle anything with calmness.
Sometimes one child needs more of ME, all by themselves. You have a
wee babe in arms Karen, that is going to add to the challenge of
whatever the older kids are dealing with. It will pass.....I promise.:)
I always swear by playdough! Maybe it's not going to work for every
kid, but if I get Jalen set up with playdough and Sierra on the
computer, we can usually level things back out. Bring in some sensory
activities and see if that helps (things they can squish or mold or pour).
Water play is especially helpful at times too.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
can't help but ask myself "what am I doing wrong?""
It could be a phase. Sometimes when I'm feeling like everything we
value seems to have gone out the door and the kids are crabby
constantly, things level back out again. Blame biology, the moon,
food...whatever.:)
BUT, sometimes I recognize their behavior as cues for ME. When a child
is not respecting boundaries, I need to be more present. Sometimes I
need to be constantly present, because they aren't in a place of being
able to handle anything with calmness.
Sometimes one child needs more of ME, all by themselves. You have a
wee babe in arms Karen, that is going to add to the challenge of
whatever the older kids are dealing with. It will pass.....I promise.:)
I always swear by playdough! Maybe it's not going to work for every
kid, but if I get Jalen set up with playdough and Sierra on the
computer, we can usually level things back out. Bring in some sensory
activities and see if that helps (things they can squish or mold or pour).
Water play is especially helpful at times too.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Pamela Sorooshian
On Feb 11, 2006, at 6:40 AM, jnjstau@... wrote:
helping.
Just saying, "These are our principles," doesn't do anything.
I think Julie is right in that it is so true that stuff goes on -
even in those homes where kids have docile and peaceful get-along
types of personalities, there are sometimes hurt feelings,
occasionally physical altercations, anger between family members, and
so on. If you have really high-energy and intense kids in the mix,
you'll get a lot more opportunity to learn how to defuse and calm
situations than other people AND sometimes you'll question whether
you're doing okay because YOUR kids will seem to be having so many
more problems than OTHER people's kids. Maybe they are - so you might
have to work a lot harder on being aware of your own ways of handling
it.
On the other hand, maybe I'm way off base and what is really
happening is that your expectations are way too high and you "feel"
like things are falling apart when things are really just fine.
My guess, if I had to bet <G>, would be that you're running short on
ideas for how to help the kids - and it is you not knowing what to do
that is really what is causing you to feel like things are falling
apart. I mean, even if they're having lots of problems, if you feel
like you know what to do about it and that you're working on it and
making progress, you ought to feel good about that.
So - if you post some real situations and gather a bunch of new
ideas, I think that might help you a lot.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> <<What am I doing wrong?>>Or you might be responding in ways that are aggravating, rather than
>
> You probably aren't doing anything wrong. You have a 7 and 4yo.
> They do that. Continue on with respecting each other and very
> importantly respecting them, check back in in about 3 years.
helping.
Just saying, "These are our principles," doesn't do anything.
I think Julie is right in that it is so true that stuff goes on -
even in those homes where kids have docile and peaceful get-along
types of personalities, there are sometimes hurt feelings,
occasionally physical altercations, anger between family members, and
so on. If you have really high-energy and intense kids in the mix,
you'll get a lot more opportunity to learn how to defuse and calm
situations than other people AND sometimes you'll question whether
you're doing okay because YOUR kids will seem to be having so many
more problems than OTHER people's kids. Maybe they are - so you might
have to work a lot harder on being aware of your own ways of handling
it.
On the other hand, maybe I'm way off base and what is really
happening is that your expectations are way too high and you "feel"
like things are falling apart when things are really just fine.
My guess, if I had to bet <G>, would be that you're running short on
ideas for how to help the kids - and it is you not knowing what to do
that is really what is causing you to feel like things are falling
apart. I mean, even if they're having lots of problems, if you feel
like you know what to do about it and that you're working on it and
making progress, you ought to feel good about that.
So - if you post some real situations and gather a bunch of new
ideas, I think that might help you a lot.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Feb 11, 2006, at 8:53 AM, Ren Allen wrote:
three girls, three years apart - so at one time I had a 7, 4, and 1
year old. Putting the 7 and 4 year olds in the bathtub with some
gadgets that I grabbed out of the kitchen was one of my tools of the
trade. But the most effective one was to just put them in the tub and
give them some weird stuff to play with -- a big bowl full of instant
pudding was the BEST.
Sounds weird to say put them together into a little confined space,
when they're having trouble getting along - but give them LOTS of
stuff to play with and make it something totally new and a little
strange - it can be great. I remember once, in desperation, putting
Roya and Rox in the tub and giving them a dozen eggs, some small
bowls, a couple of egg beaters and some other stuff - oh, I remember
-- it was a bag of potato chips!
Another time I remember I grabbed tubes of fingerpaint and and a big
bag of cotton balls.
I watched for things in stores that I could buy - things in the
dollar bins, for example - that I could stash away and pull out when
it seemed like trouble was brewing.
Distraction was my best tool. The more unexpected it was, the better
my distraction was - the more the kids would buy into it and let go
of whatever hostility they'd built up and just enjoy themselves.
Sometimes it was moving furniture and throwing sheets over it and
dumping all the stuffed animals in the middle. Or shutting the hall
doors and putting towels under the cracks and giving them flashlights
to play with.
Me coming up with unexpected things for them to do also gave them
some really good, fun shared experience, which is what they STILL
need, at 18 and 21, to keep them getting along well. They're so
different and their personalities can really clash. Even now I find
myself setting up interesting experiences for them to share - to help
build a happier relationship between them.
So - distraction is great, but that assumes all the other stuff -
modeling kindness and generosity and caring and responsibility and
patience and tolerance and how to overlook other people's flaws and
on and on.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I always swear by playdough! Maybe it's not going to work for everyA CHANGE in venue and activities was what worked well for me - I had
> kid, but if I get Jalen set up with playdough and Sierra on the
> computer, we can usually level things back out. Bring in some sensory
> activities and see if that helps (things they can squish or mold or
> pour).
> Water play is especially helpful at times too.
three girls, three years apart - so at one time I had a 7, 4, and 1
year old. Putting the 7 and 4 year olds in the bathtub with some
gadgets that I grabbed out of the kitchen was one of my tools of the
trade. But the most effective one was to just put them in the tub and
give them some weird stuff to play with -- a big bowl full of instant
pudding was the BEST.
Sounds weird to say put them together into a little confined space,
when they're having trouble getting along - but give them LOTS of
stuff to play with and make it something totally new and a little
strange - it can be great. I remember once, in desperation, putting
Roya and Rox in the tub and giving them a dozen eggs, some small
bowls, a couple of egg beaters and some other stuff - oh, I remember
-- it was a bag of potato chips!
Another time I remember I grabbed tubes of fingerpaint and and a big
bag of cotton balls.
I watched for things in stores that I could buy - things in the
dollar bins, for example - that I could stash away and pull out when
it seemed like trouble was brewing.
Distraction was my best tool. The more unexpected it was, the better
my distraction was - the more the kids would buy into it and let go
of whatever hostility they'd built up and just enjoy themselves.
Sometimes it was moving furniture and throwing sheets over it and
dumping all the stuffed animals in the middle. Or shutting the hall
doors and putting towels under the cracks and giving them flashlights
to play with.
Me coming up with unexpected things for them to do also gave them
some really good, fun shared experience, which is what they STILL
need, at 18 and 21, to keep them getting along well. They're so
different and their personalities can really clash. Even now I find
myself setting up interesting experiences for them to share - to help
build a happier relationship between them.
So - distraction is great, but that assumes all the other stuff -
modeling kindness and generosity and caring and responsibility and
patience and tolerance and how to overlook other people's flaws and
on and on.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
John & Karen Buxcel
on 2/11/06 10:53 AM, Ren Allen at starsuncloud@... wrote:
boys pick on each other', and leave it at that. I want to be aware of
whatever underlying issues there may be, and I do recognize that that's how
children communicate their needs to us, by doing whatever they need to do to
GET OUR ATTENTION. It just helps to hear that others have felt it, too. I
think we'll mix up a big batch of playdough today! :)
Thanks for your help, Ren!
Karen
> BUT, sometimes I recognize their behavior as cues for ME.This point is exactly why I don't want to just accept that 'oh, well, all
boys pick on each other', and leave it at that. I want to be aware of
whatever underlying issues there may be, and I do recognize that that's how
children communicate their needs to us, by doing whatever they need to do to
GET OUR ATTENTION. It just helps to hear that others have felt it, too. I
think we'll mix up a big batch of playdough today! :)
Thanks for your help, Ren!
Karen
John & Karen Buxcel
on 2/11/06 12:20 PM, Pamela Sorooshian at pamsoroosh@... wrote:
ACT like brothers. And for some dumb reason, I just think they are supposed
to act like they love each other all the time. That's not realistic! There
are times when I don't show my love for people I love, whether, like Ren
said, it's food/moon/mood/sleep deprivation, whatever! Thanks for helping
me to see that human relationships are complex and I shouldn't expect so
much from them. I love all of your distraction ideas, too! Eggs and chips
in the tub! Exciting stuff!
Karen
> to helpThis is the most important point! I want for my boys to love each other and
> build a happier relationship between them.
ACT like brothers. And for some dumb reason, I just think they are supposed
to act like they love each other all the time. That's not realistic! There
are times when I don't show my love for people I love, whether, like Ren
said, it's food/moon/mood/sleep deprivation, whatever! Thanks for helping
me to see that human relationships are complex and I shouldn't expect so
much from them. I love all of your distraction ideas, too! Eggs and chips
in the tub! Exciting stuff!
Karen
Ren Allen
" I want for my boys to love each other and
ACT like brothers. "
I totally understand. When my kids are sweet to each other, there's
just no better feeling. I think what we want is sometimes unrealistic
though.
Not all siblings come with predispositions to get along easily.
Personality plays a big part in this, but I think at 7 and 4 it's hard
to know...lots of kids that age have a very difficult time solving
problems peacefully. I would just about bet they'll get along a lot
better as they get older.
Though I believe strongly in being present, helping set up the
environment to give them tools and distractions etc....I also think we
need to accept when they don't like each other. Four years is a very
tough age for an older sibling to deal with.
Jalen drives Sierra up the wall sometimes. They just aren't very
reasonable (except to themselves) human beings at that age.;)
When you're doing everything you can to assist them and they are still
just NOT enjoying each others company, that's ok. They'll grow,
they'll get better tools and different things will become a focal
point in their relationship.
Don't despair.
I didn't care for my younger sibs very much until I got into the late
teen years. Heidi (three years younger) and I became closer and closer
over the years...she's absolutely my best friend now. I can't imagine
life without my sisters. But we fought like cats and dogs for most of
our childhood.
You're giving your kids better tools for relationship issues than we
had as kids Karen, so don't worry!
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
ACT like brothers. "
I totally understand. When my kids are sweet to each other, there's
just no better feeling. I think what we want is sometimes unrealistic
though.
Not all siblings come with predispositions to get along easily.
Personality plays a big part in this, but I think at 7 and 4 it's hard
to know...lots of kids that age have a very difficult time solving
problems peacefully. I would just about bet they'll get along a lot
better as they get older.
Though I believe strongly in being present, helping set up the
environment to give them tools and distractions etc....I also think we
need to accept when they don't like each other. Four years is a very
tough age for an older sibling to deal with.
Jalen drives Sierra up the wall sometimes. They just aren't very
reasonable (except to themselves) human beings at that age.;)
When you're doing everything you can to assist them and they are still
just NOT enjoying each others company, that's ok. They'll grow,
they'll get better tools and different things will become a focal
point in their relationship.
Don't despair.
I didn't care for my younger sibs very much until I got into the late
teen years. Heidi (three years younger) and I became closer and closer
over the years...she's absolutely my best friend now. I can't imagine
life without my sisters. But we fought like cats and dogs for most of
our childhood.
You're giving your kids better tools for relationship issues than we
had as kids Karen, so don't worry!
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Pamela Sorooshian
On Feb 11, 2006, at 3:37 PM, Ren Allen wrote:
close to now is the one I fought with the most when we were kids (3
years younger than me) and we had little to do with each other for
some years, too.
I think we can do harm with our hope to make them into best friends -
better to focus on them treating everyone respectfully and learning
to "get along." I KNOW I've made the mistake of wanting them to show
that they really love each other more than their friends, for
example, but that's just guilt-producing and resentment-producing, I
think, when it is not really the way they feel.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I didn't care for my younger sibs very much until I got into the lateMy sisters and I are really close now, too. The sister I'm especially
> teen years. Heidi (three years younger) and I became closer and closer
> over the years...she's absolutely my best friend now. I can't imagine
> life without my sisters. But we fought like cats and dogs for most of
> our childhood.
close to now is the one I fought with the most when we were kids (3
years younger than me) and we had little to do with each other for
some years, too.
I think we can do harm with our hope to make them into best friends -
better to focus on them treating everyone respectfully and learning
to "get along." I KNOW I've made the mistake of wanting them to show
that they really love each other more than their friends, for
example, but that's just guilt-producing and resentment-producing, I
think, when it is not really the way they feel.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sarah
Pam wrote:
"Even now I find myself setting up interesting
experiences for them to share - to help
build a happier relationship between them."
What kinds of things do you set up now? I would love
to hear about this!
Sarah
__________________________________________________
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"Even now I find myself setting up interesting
experiences for them to share - to help
build a happier relationship between them."
What kinds of things do you set up now? I would love
to hear about this!
Sarah
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Pamela Sorooshian
On Feb 12, 2006, at 6:38 AM, Sarah wrote:
18, and 21. They all love musical theater, so I find shows and try to
work it out so they can all go together. Last night we went to a
little theater about 15 miles away and saw "The Last Five Years."
Same with movies. I often use my netflix choices to get movies that I
think all three of them will really like. Or - I noticed that all
three of them really liked the tv show, LOST - they'd watched the
first season on a borrowed DVD and the second season was in progress
so the episodes they'd already missed in the 2nd season weren't
available on DVD yet. It isn't a show you can watch out of order.
Well - all the watching of LOST and talking about it had been a real
bonding experience for them, so I decided to buy the episodes they'd
missed from the 2nd season by downloading them from the itunes music
store onto my computer. Then I had to figure out how to play stuff on
my computer on the big tv. Had to buy a couple of cables to do that
and it took a trip to the Apple Store. Anyway - the underlying
impetus for me to do all that work so they could watch a tv show
together was that this was something they were enjoying TOGETHER and
talking about together and so on. Now they're caught up and they
watch the current episodes on tv - it is on Wednesday nights and we
tape it from 9 to 10 and they all arrange their schedule to be sure
to be home by 10 and they watch it together.
What I was trying to say about setting up experiences for them is
that, even though they're young adults now, and mostly they initiate
whatever is going on in their own lives, I'm still conscious of being
willing to put my own time and money and thought into setting up
things for them to do together because it still makes me happy to see
them enjoying each other's company and having the kinds of good
shared experiences that are bonding.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> "Even now I find myself setting up interestingThat would depend on your own kids' interests and ages. Mine are 15,
> experiences for them to share - to help
> build a happier relationship between them."
>
> What kinds of things do you set up now? I would love
> to hear about this!
18, and 21. They all love musical theater, so I find shows and try to
work it out so they can all go together. Last night we went to a
little theater about 15 miles away and saw "The Last Five Years."
Same with movies. I often use my netflix choices to get movies that I
think all three of them will really like. Or - I noticed that all
three of them really liked the tv show, LOST - they'd watched the
first season on a borrowed DVD and the second season was in progress
so the episodes they'd already missed in the 2nd season weren't
available on DVD yet. It isn't a show you can watch out of order.
Well - all the watching of LOST and talking about it had been a real
bonding experience for them, so I decided to buy the episodes they'd
missed from the 2nd season by downloading them from the itunes music
store onto my computer. Then I had to figure out how to play stuff on
my computer on the big tv. Had to buy a couple of cables to do that
and it took a trip to the Apple Store. Anyway - the underlying
impetus for me to do all that work so they could watch a tv show
together was that this was something they were enjoying TOGETHER and
talking about together and so on. Now they're caught up and they
watch the current episodes on tv - it is on Wednesday nights and we
tape it from 9 to 10 and they all arrange their schedule to be sure
to be home by 10 and they watch it together.
What I was trying to say about setting up experiences for them is
that, even though they're young adults now, and mostly they initiate
whatever is going on in their own lives, I'm still conscious of being
willing to put my own time and money and thought into setting up
things for them to do together because it still makes me happy to see
them enjoying each other's company and having the kinds of good
shared experiences that are bonding.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]