4 y.o. potty stuff
Ren Allen
"Sometimes with my
prompting more often without any prompting...however if he doesn't at
least learn and help take responsibility for himself now how will he
be expected to take responsibility when he is older?"
Because it's natural for humans to take more and more responsiblity as
they grow and mature. This was a hard one for me to wrap my mind
around also...you're not alone, don't worry! :)
But what I've found, is if I'm willing to assist them and NOT make an
issue of "clean up after yourself" they are way more likely to kindly
assist me.
I think the thing that strips people of a desire to take responsiblity
for their lives as they age, is when someone sends them repeated
messages that they aren't capable. Parents that step in and say
"your'e doing it wrong, let ME handle this" or insist on doing for
their children when the child WANTS to do a task.
So let them do what they can....be encouraging and helpful when they
have struggles (including bodily messes, which they really can't
control and don't need to feel any shame over) and trust the process.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
prompting more often without any prompting...however if he doesn't at
least learn and help take responsibility for himself now how will he
be expected to take responsibility when he is older?"
Because it's natural for humans to take more and more responsiblity as
they grow and mature. This was a hard one for me to wrap my mind
around also...you're not alone, don't worry! :)
But what I've found, is if I'm willing to assist them and NOT make an
issue of "clean up after yourself" they are way more likely to kindly
assist me.
I think the thing that strips people of a desire to take responsiblity
for their lives as they age, is when someone sends them repeated
messages that they aren't capable. Parents that step in and say
"your'e doing it wrong, let ME handle this" or insist on doing for
their children when the child WANTS to do a task.
So let them do what they can....be encouraging and helpful when they
have struggles (including bodily messes, which they really can't
control and don't need to feel any shame over) and trust the process.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
S Drag-teine
That is what I have done like I have tried to explain and I blame myself for
not being plainer... It has been a step-by-step process. He has always been
interested in what anyone is doing. Me, his father, his Nana or when I take
him to where his Aunt lives (at an Intentional Community called Wygelia) and
I have dealt with my battles of he is not too young to help and turn it
around to in what way, no matter the task can he help.
He even helps someone build a fire by carrying fire wood (one piece at a
time), looking for kindling and blowing on the spark. While I do admit that
some times I make it sound that a lot of it comes from me. His desire to
help has built over time to him doing these things. I didn't just throw
detergent at him and tell him to go clean the mess up.
It is the same steps to clean anything up from toys to a building project.
If he says a job is too big then we break it down together. We pick the big
pieces first, the smaller pieces next, wipe up or vacuum whatever is left
behind. It has slowly over a very long time to get to the point of him doing
these things on him own.
He likes to help out and he likes almost any job that he can play in water;
washing the dishes, spot treating laundry and cleaning the floor. Does he do
it all the time? No! He does it when it strikes him to do it or a big mess
is made or he finds himself washing his hands at the sink and sees that
there are a couple things in the prespot bucket that we moved upstairs
because he expressed wanting to do it and it has made it more convenient for
us all because I will do one when I am washing my hands or my husband will
and me doing will spike his interest - "But Mama I wanted to do those!"
None of us have a chore list. We all do whatever needs done as it needs done
when it needs done. Sometimes it does get forgotten and eventually we may
need a better method. I don't expect him to do more then he expects of
himself. When he was very young it was Opps! You spilled some milk or
whatever. Let's clean it up! Messes don't bother me - except vomit which I
just can't do. Thank goodness for my husband!
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 8:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] 4 y.o. potty stuff
"Sometimes with my
prompting more often without any prompting...however if he doesn't at
least learn and help take responsibility for himself now how will he
be expected to take responsibility when he is older?"
Because it's natural for humans to take more and more responsiblity as
they grow and mature. This was a hard one for me to wrap my mind
around also...you're not alone, don't worry! :)
But what I've found, is if I'm willing to assist them and NOT make an
issue of "clean up after yourself" they are way more likely to kindly
assist me.
I think the thing that strips people of a desire to take responsiblity
for their lives as they age, is when someone sends them repeated
messages that they aren't capable. Parents that step in and say
"your'e doing it wrong, let ME handle this" or insist on doing for
their children when the child WANTS to do a task.
So let them do what they can....be encouraging and helpful when they
have struggles (including bodily messes, which they really can't
control and don't need to feel any shame over) and trust the process.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
not being plainer... It has been a step-by-step process. He has always been
interested in what anyone is doing. Me, his father, his Nana or when I take
him to where his Aunt lives (at an Intentional Community called Wygelia) and
I have dealt with my battles of he is not too young to help and turn it
around to in what way, no matter the task can he help.
He even helps someone build a fire by carrying fire wood (one piece at a
time), looking for kindling and blowing on the spark. While I do admit that
some times I make it sound that a lot of it comes from me. His desire to
help has built over time to him doing these things. I didn't just throw
detergent at him and tell him to go clean the mess up.
It is the same steps to clean anything up from toys to a building project.
If he says a job is too big then we break it down together. We pick the big
pieces first, the smaller pieces next, wipe up or vacuum whatever is left
behind. It has slowly over a very long time to get to the point of him doing
these things on him own.
He likes to help out and he likes almost any job that he can play in water;
washing the dishes, spot treating laundry and cleaning the floor. Does he do
it all the time? No! He does it when it strikes him to do it or a big mess
is made or he finds himself washing his hands at the sink and sees that
there are a couple things in the prespot bucket that we moved upstairs
because he expressed wanting to do it and it has made it more convenient for
us all because I will do one when I am washing my hands or my husband will
and me doing will spike his interest - "But Mama I wanted to do those!"
None of us have a chore list. We all do whatever needs done as it needs done
when it needs done. Sometimes it does get forgotten and eventually we may
need a better method. I don't expect him to do more then he expects of
himself. When he was very young it was Opps! You spilled some milk or
whatever. Let's clean it up! Messes don't bother me - except vomit which I
just can't do. Thank goodness for my husband!
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 8:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] 4 y.o. potty stuff
"Sometimes with my
prompting more often without any prompting...however if he doesn't at
least learn and help take responsibility for himself now how will he
be expected to take responsibility when he is older?"
Because it's natural for humans to take more and more responsiblity as
they grow and mature. This was a hard one for me to wrap my mind
around also...you're not alone, don't worry! :)
But what I've found, is if I'm willing to assist them and NOT make an
issue of "clean up after yourself" they are way more likely to kindly
assist me.
I think the thing that strips people of a desire to take responsiblity
for their lives as they age, is when someone sends them repeated
messages that they aren't capable. Parents that step in and say
"your'e doing it wrong, let ME handle this" or insist on doing for
their children when the child WANTS to do a task.
So let them do what they can....be encouraging and helpful when they
have struggles (including bodily messes, which they really can't
control and don't need to feel any shame over) and trust the process.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
Ren Allen
" My son likes little prizes, so when he goes by himself he gets to
choose a small prize. When he has help or dosen't go by himself we
give him a sticker. When he gets 7 stickers he gets to choose a small
prize."
I know this might seem nitpicky to newer members, but I think it's
really helpful for unschoolers to get past rewards OR punishments. I
think we mess with a child's internal motivation when we use rewards
for doing things that are worth doing all on their own.
For anyone trying to understand why rewards and punishments are
harmful, I recommend reading Alfie Kohn's "Punished by Rewards". It
was a great eye opener for me.
We don't reward or punish our children in our home, yet they are
motivated to do really cool things. Why? How can we encourage children
without external controls? I think these are very important issues for
unschoolers to explore (well, any parent really).
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
choose a small prize. When he has help or dosen't go by himself we
give him a sticker. When he gets 7 stickers he gets to choose a small
prize."
I know this might seem nitpicky to newer members, but I think it's
really helpful for unschoolers to get past rewards OR punishments. I
think we mess with a child's internal motivation when we use rewards
for doing things that are worth doing all on their own.
For anyone trying to understand why rewards and punishments are
harmful, I recommend reading Alfie Kohn's "Punished by Rewards". It
was a great eye opener for me.
We don't reward or punish our children in our home, yet they are
motivated to do really cool things. Why? How can we encourage children
without external controls? I think these are very important issues for
unschoolers to explore (well, any parent really).
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
S Drag-teine
"We don't reward or punish our children in our home, yet they are motivated
to do really cool things."
My kid does cool stuff too but he also does some not so cool stuff - how do
you handle in your house when one child is misbehaving?
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 3:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] 4 y.o. potty stuff
" My son likes little prizes, so when he goes by himself he gets to
choose a small prize. When he has help or dosen't go by himself we
give him a sticker. When he gets 7 stickers he gets to choose a small
prize."
I know this might seem nitpicky to newer members, but I think it's
really helpful for unschoolers to get past rewards OR punishments. I
think we mess with a child's internal motivation when we use rewards
for doing things that are worth doing all on their own.
For anyone trying to understand why rewards and punishments are
harmful, I recommend reading Alfie Kohn's "Punished by Rewards". It
was a great eye opener for me.
We don't reward or punish our children in our home, yet they are
motivated to do really cool things. Why? How can we encourage children
without external controls? I think these are very important issues for
unschoolers to explore (well, any parent really).
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
to do really cool things."
My kid does cool stuff too but he also does some not so cool stuff - how do
you handle in your house when one child is misbehaving?
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 3:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] 4 y.o. potty stuff
" My son likes little prizes, so when he goes by himself he gets to
choose a small prize. When he has help or dosen't go by himself we
give him a sticker. When he gets 7 stickers he gets to choose a small
prize."
I know this might seem nitpicky to newer members, but I think it's
really helpful for unschoolers to get past rewards OR punishments. I
think we mess with a child's internal motivation when we use rewards
for doing things that are worth doing all on their own.
For anyone trying to understand why rewards and punishments are
harmful, I recommend reading Alfie Kohn's "Punished by Rewards". It
was a great eye opener for me.
We don't reward or punish our children in our home, yet they are
motivated to do really cool things. Why? How can we encourage children
without external controls? I think these are very important issues for
unschoolers to explore (well, any parent really).
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
Lisa H
Shannon, What do you mean by misbehaving? How old is your child?
My children never "misbehave." They behave according to their desires, motivation, needs, curiosity, explorations, understanding (or naivety) and the responses they get.
For instance, when one child used to write on walls, i was quick to give her paper to write on indicating that these walls weren't for writing on. I did put up paper on the walls so that she could write on the walls without ruining the paint.
Or - if you are referring to inappropriate social interactions i have done my best not to put my child in a situation they are not developmentally ready for, or at the very least prepare them for what is expected of them (eg. quiet in the library). But if when my young child was biting or hitting or yelling at another, it was usually because the situation was not the right one for my child and/or they were not being respected.
When my younger dd was 5yo she went under a table at a restaurant with my mom and wouldn't come out. Drove my mom crazy. But bottom line, my mom was driving my dd crazy because she was not respecting my dd when dd said "no" to sharing her food, and my mom took food anyway. Did mom apologize for "misbehaving?" No. She shamed my dd by calling her selfish and silly, my dd then used the only means available to her to have some power in the situation. Had i been there I might have been able to intervene on my dd's behalf. But i wasn't. My dd has not been left with my mom since.
I've never found my child to "misbehave" with intention of hurting or damaging another person or object without provocation. Perhaps your child is unaware of the social convention or expectations and then it's not a behavior that needs punishment (or rewards) just information.
Lisa.
My children never "misbehave." They behave according to their desires, motivation, needs, curiosity, explorations, understanding (or naivety) and the responses they get.
For instance, when one child used to write on walls, i was quick to give her paper to write on indicating that these walls weren't for writing on. I did put up paper on the walls so that she could write on the walls without ruining the paint.
Or - if you are referring to inappropriate social interactions i have done my best not to put my child in a situation they are not developmentally ready for, or at the very least prepare them for what is expected of them (eg. quiet in the library). But if when my young child was biting or hitting or yelling at another, it was usually because the situation was not the right one for my child and/or they were not being respected.
When my younger dd was 5yo she went under a table at a restaurant with my mom and wouldn't come out. Drove my mom crazy. But bottom line, my mom was driving my dd crazy because she was not respecting my dd when dd said "no" to sharing her food, and my mom took food anyway. Did mom apologize for "misbehaving?" No. She shamed my dd by calling her selfish and silly, my dd then used the only means available to her to have some power in the situation. Had i been there I might have been able to intervene on my dd's behalf. But i wasn't. My dd has not been left with my mom since.
I've never found my child to "misbehave" with intention of hurting or damaging another person or object without provocation. Perhaps your child is unaware of the social convention or expectations and then it's not a behavior that needs punishment (or rewards) just information.
Lisa.
----- Original Message -----
From: S Drag-teine
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 3:12 PM
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment vs Rewards was 4 y.o. potty stuff
"We don't reward or punish our children in our home, yet they are motivated
to do really cool things."
My kid does cool stuff too but he also does some not so cool stuff - how do
you handle in your house when one child is misbehaving?
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 3:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] 4 y.o. potty stuff
" My son likes little prizes, so when he goes by himself he gets to
choose a small prize. When he has help or dosen't go by himself we
give him a sticker. When he gets 7 stickers he gets to choose a small
prize."
I know this might seem nitpicky to newer members, but I think it's
really helpful for unschoolers to get past rewards OR punishments. I
think we mess with a child's internal motivation when we use rewards
for doing things that are worth doing all on their own.
For anyone trying to understand why rewards and punishments are
harmful, I recommend reading Alfie Kohn's "Punished by Rewards". It
was a great eye opener for me.
We don't reward or punish our children in our home, yet they are
motivated to do really cool things. Why? How can we encourage children
without external controls? I think these are very important issues for
unschoolers to explore (well, any parent really).
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
SPONSORED LINKS Secondary school education Graduate school education Home school education
Graduate school education online High school education Chicago school education
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
a.. Visit your group "unschoolingbasics" on the web.
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
S Drag-teine
I know that my discipline is still a still a form of punishment. I ask my
son to go to his room until he can manage himself better. I would like
better ideas but I haven't found any.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Lisa H
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 8:49 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment vs Rewards was 4 y.o. potty
stuff
Shannon, What do you mean by misbehaving? How old is your child?
My children never "misbehave." They behave according to their desires,
motivation, needs, curiosity, explorations, understanding (or naivety) and
the responses they get.
For instance, when one child used to write on walls, i was quick to give her
paper to write on indicating that these walls weren't for writing on. I did
put up paper on the walls so that she could write on the walls without
ruining the paint.
Or - if you are referring to inappropriate social interactions i have done
my best not to put my child in a situation they are not developmentally
ready for, or at the very least prepare them for what is expected of them
(eg. quiet in the library). But if when my young child was biting or
hitting or yelling at another, it was usually because the situation was not
the right one for my child and/or they were not being respected.
When my younger dd was 5yo she went under a table at a restaurant with my
mom and wouldn't come out. Drove my mom crazy. But bottom line, my mom was
driving my dd crazy because she was not respecting my dd when dd said "no"
to sharing her food, and my mom took food anyway. Did mom apologize for
"misbehaving?" No. She shamed my dd by calling her selfish and silly, my dd
then used the only means available to her to have some power in the
situation. Had i been there I might have been able to intervene on my dd's
behalf. But i wasn't. My dd has not been left with my mom since.
I've never found my child to "misbehave" with intention of hurting or
damaging another person or object without provocation. Perhaps your child
is unaware of the social convention or expectations and then it's not a
behavior that needs punishment (or rewards) just information.
Lisa.
son to go to his room until he can manage himself better. I would like
better ideas but I haven't found any.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Lisa H
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 8:49 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment vs Rewards was 4 y.o. potty
stuff
Shannon, What do you mean by misbehaving? How old is your child?
My children never "misbehave." They behave according to their desires,
motivation, needs, curiosity, explorations, understanding (or naivety) and
the responses they get.
For instance, when one child used to write on walls, i was quick to give her
paper to write on indicating that these walls weren't for writing on. I did
put up paper on the walls so that she could write on the walls without
ruining the paint.
Or - if you are referring to inappropriate social interactions i have done
my best not to put my child in a situation they are not developmentally
ready for, or at the very least prepare them for what is expected of them
(eg. quiet in the library). But if when my young child was biting or
hitting or yelling at another, it was usually because the situation was not
the right one for my child and/or they were not being respected.
When my younger dd was 5yo she went under a table at a restaurant with my
mom and wouldn't come out. Drove my mom crazy. But bottom line, my mom was
driving my dd crazy because she was not respecting my dd when dd said "no"
to sharing her food, and my mom took food anyway. Did mom apologize for
"misbehaving?" No. She shamed my dd by calling her selfish and silly, my dd
then used the only means available to her to have some power in the
situation. Had i been there I might have been able to intervene on my dd's
behalf. But i wasn't. My dd has not been left with my mom since.
I've never found my child to "misbehave" with intention of hurting or
damaging another person or object without provocation. Perhaps your child
is unaware of the social convention or expectations and then it's not a
behavior that needs punishment (or rewards) just information.
Lisa.
----- Original Message -----
From: S Drag-teine
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 3:12 PM
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment vs Rewards was 4 y.o. potty
stuff
"We don't reward or punish our children in our home, yet they are
motivated
to do really cool things."
My kid does cool stuff too but he also does some not so cool stuff - how
do
you handle in your house when one child is misbehaving?
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving
money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 3:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] 4 y.o. potty stuff
" My son likes little prizes, so when he goes by himself he gets to
choose a small prize. When he has help or dosen't go by himself we
give him a sticker. When he gets 7 stickers he gets to choose a small
prize."
I know this might seem nitpicky to newer members, but I think it's
really helpful for unschoolers to get past rewards OR punishments. I
think we mess with a child's internal motivation when we use rewards
for doing things that are worth doing all on their own.
For anyone trying to understand why rewards and punishments are
harmful, I recommend reading Alfie Kohn's "Punished by Rewards". It
was a great eye opener for me.
We don't reward or punish our children in our home, yet they are
motivated to do really cool things. Why? How can we encourage children
without external controls? I think these are very important issues for
unschoolers to explore (well, any parent really).
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
SPONSORED LINKS Secondary school education Graduate school education
Home school education
Graduate school education online High school education Chicago
school education
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
a.. Visit your group "unschoolingbasics" on the web.
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
Pamela Sorooshian
On Feb 4, 2006, at 7:55 AM, S Drag-teine wrote:
A good idea is to list a lot of things that he might do that would
ordinarily get him sent to his room - then come up with an
alternative way to respond to each of them. Always choose from at
least two alternatives - choose the one that will help your son the
most, not the one that will punish him the most.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I know that my discipline is still a still a form of punishment. IGo to your own room until you can think of some other response? <g>
> ask my
> son to go to his room until he can manage himself better. I would like
> better ideas but I haven't found any.
A good idea is to list a lot of things that he might do that would
ordinarily get him sent to his room - then come up with an
alternative way to respond to each of them. Always choose from at
least two alternatives - choose the one that will help your son the
most, not the one that will punish him the most.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]