Susan Ide Patton

Thanks for all the feedback about TV and sugar. I can see that sugar is in a
different category. It makes total sense to me that a child will begin to
feel unhealthy after eating too much sugar and will work to balance his/her
body with better food.

TV, though, still seems like an entirely different beast. My objection to
watching isn't that I necessarily think it isn't "educational", if I may be
forgiven for using that word. I still tend to think that it is, in fact,
somewhat addictive (not like cocaine, but perhaps like marijuana...which
hasn't had any studies that unarguably demonstrate it is harmful either and
certainly it isn't incredibly addictive) so that it isn't quite a matter of
trusting my child to turn it off...I think that perhaps some kids might need
HELP in turning it off (once it is on in the first place).

And besides the addictive part, I really don't like that advertisers and TV
professionals are being allowed into my home freely to seek out my children
and get them to want things...things that they would not have wanted or
known about if they had never watched TV in the first place. Not just
things, either, but ways of talking and acting. Unfriendly, whiney ways of
acting and talking. Stereotypical ways of acting, like coming to assume that
little sisters are "a pain and annoying" because that is what is portrayed
on TV.

So do your kids never ask for things that they have seen on TV? And do you
really not see any behavior changes that you attribute to characters on TV
shows? I am asking because I see those things in my kids and the idea of
letting them watch unlimited TV is difficult for me to imagine. I truly feel
like I am letting them wander into a forest alone....or something like that.

Thanks - I won't post anymore about this topic, but I am interested in
people's experience on this.

Susan

Melissa

I wanted to say something in regards to the topic that your children
being exposed to advertising being a bad thing. I think it's good.
It's good for them to be exposed and want stuff now while the
personal cost is low. What's going to happen if and when they move
out? What if they're twenty, living on their own and discover the
HSN? Having never been exposed to that kind of marketing without the
loving support of family, what will their response be? My brother was
24 when he got ripped off by one of those tv commercials and it cost
him lots.

When my kids ask for things they see on tv, we talk about it. I ask
why it's appealing. I ask how they plan on getting it. I offer
alternatives, like similar products at local stores. I share
experiences I have had with ordering stuff. I sometimes offer
comments and experiences when I see ads on tv. Just a few days ago,
we saw a cakepan set commercial for a product that I'd been wanting
and found at walmart. The girls (ages seven and five) remarked how
lucky we were we had bought it there, because not only did it cost
more on tv, there was a remarkably high s&h. Josh (ten) bought some
set online, and when he got it was grossly disappointed by the
quality and how difficult it was to put together. He's learned a
valuable lesson in marketing.

And sometimes I just say "why not?" and we look into buying it. I
don't have to lecture about value or cost or saving money. They see
for themselves and they are much more cautious next time.

As for attitudes. My kids have experimented with attitudes that they
see on TV. It's a role they try on. If I really feel I can't tolerate
it, then I'll tell them that the way they are acting hurts me or
bothers me because <reason>. The best way is to playact with them,
it's fun, they've tried the role on, and it's no longer appealing
(sometimes, the girls are really stuck on British accents right now,
with snoots in the air and tail feathers awaving!) And it's not all
bad, the girls have seen a lot of compassion and love and solving
problems. They aren't watching it alone either, and usually when
we're watching someone will make a comment about how so and so was
mean, or such and so was a great idea.

I don't know if this will help, we just started the unlimited tv
ourselves, maybe a few weeks ago, but we're seeing changes. Our tv is
in a game room that we LOCKED for crying out loud, to keep them from
watching tv when we didn't approve.

Melissa
On Jan 19, 2006, at 8:31 PM, Susan Ide Patton wrote:
>
> And besides the addictive part, I really don't like that
> advertisers and TV
> professionals are being allowed into my home freely to seek out my
> children
> and get them to want things...things that they would not have
> wanted or
> known about if they had never watched TV in the first place. Not just
> things, either, but ways of talking and acting. Unfriendly, whiney
> ways of
> acting and talking. Stereotypical ways of acting, like coming to
> assume that
> little sisters are "a pain and annoying" because that is what is
> portrayed
> on TV.
>
> So do your kids never ask for things that they have seen on TV? And
> do you
> really not see any behavior changes that you attribute to
> characters on TV
> shows? I am asking because I see those things in my kids and the
> idea of
> letting them watch unlimited TV is difficult for me to imagine. I
> truly feel
> like I am letting them wander into a forest alone....or something
> like that.

Ren Allen

"As for attitudes. My kids have experimented with attitudes that they
see on TV. It's a role they try on."

I think that's such a natural part of development..to mimic. Children
mimic the adults in their lives, they mimic friends, they try out
accents and phrases and all sorts of things.
It's part of learning and developing their own personality.
Kinda like trying on different clothes.:)

Eventually they go through that stage and the mimicking wanes....

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

[email protected]

This is my experience with the TV advertising. I do cringe a bit because my
oldest is not strong on communication skills so I don't have the ability to
really discuss things with him like other unschoolers might. But on his own
as he matures (he is nine now), he seems less and less impressed with the
latest newest thing.

When we first moved to this house about 18 months ago, we got DirecTV for
the first time. My kids were glued to PBSKids, which is a 24 hour station
playing nothing but PBS shows and no real commercials. I noticed a dramatic
reduction in the stuff they asked for. Then when they got bored of that, they
started watching the channels with commercials and they did start to ask for
this fantastic toy or that one. We went through a phase of them desperately
wanting to go to the store every day for this or that. We had a loose
allowance plan for them and we refined it at that point. They had a certain amount
of money to spend (enough for them to get a decent toy about every week and a
better toy every two weeks). Then that phase waned as they got used to the
commercials again.

Sometime in October I saw another huge shift in the asking for this or that.
I remarked to a friend that Christmas must be coming.....the advertising
was kicked up a notch! My kids talked of fantastic toys that do fantastic
things constantly. Christmas came and they got a good balance of what they
wanted, some things they didn't know about and their own shopping money to get
what they didn't get for Christmas. I haven't heard much since then (I know it
is only Jan. 20th! but that's a long time in kid-years!).

I grew up in a household where "wanting" and "getting" were loaded subjects.
It wasn't really considered a bad thing to want something, and we had huge
generous birthdays and Christmases. But, my mom would always hear that voice
she grew up with and say "you always get too much, you don't need that
much". In her childhood, frugalness was (and still is to much of my family) the
ultimate virtue. Even if someone has plenty of money, it is frowned upon to
spend in any sort of flashy way. Some don't own pets as that is considered a
waste of money.

I feel like most of us grew up with some level of these ideals and ever
since technology met advertising, the allure has increased a thousand fold on our
poor children. That is scary and uncomfortable for most of us...I don't
think we've really resolved the frugal vs. abundance thing in our heads, or in
our culture. So are we reacting with a real concern for our children or
those familial/cultural voices in our heads? (By the way, I can't answer that
question :) )

I think our kids are going to have to be prepared for a future of
advertising even more expanded than we have now. When we eventually get Tivo or DVR, I
will happy to reduce the amount of advertising they are exposed to, but I
think it is a mistake to try to act like it isn't there. My kids are learning
about the power of advertising by seeing that Floam doesn't work as
advertised, not by buying a ton of worthless junk on a maxed out first credit card.

I think my kids are going to learn that it is OK to want something, how to
budget and save, how it feels to spend your money on something that doesn't
deliver and how it feels to spend your money on something that does!

My friend with an older girl watches a lot of craft shows with her daughter
and they started Tivo'ing them because she was uncomfortable about the sheer
number of weight loss/perfect body commercials. It was at this age that she
started her own food/body issues and she is so uncomfortable with the
commercials that it made her not want to watch the shows. She feels she can manage
the subject on a smaller level, but the shows geared at women had a constant
attack! The Tivo has been the perfect solution and they have a great time
together without the added stress it causes her.

Sorry so long! Feeling chatty, I guess.

Leslie in SC




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

beanmommy2

I was just thinking about this earlier today, mostly because the
girls have so much stuff right now that I just have trouble managing
it. What I've always heard is that the more you have, the less you
care or appreciate any of it. For example, if you have twenty
stuffed animals you might not even notice if you lose one, but if
you have one or two, you will cherish them and they'll be very
special to you.

If you've ever read The Tightwad Gazette (a very interesting
compilation of newsletters), the author shares a story about going
to a garage sale and a boy was selling a TON of GI Joe stuff and
almost seemed to have a certain disdain for them. She also talks
about how her kids really appreciate going out for ice cream since
they do it very rarely.

The idea seems to be that children (and people in general) will
enjoy life more if "fun things" are doled out in very small amounts.

The other (similar) idea I always hear is that kids will take better
care of their things and not lose them easily and stuff if they have
less.

I'm not sure if I've found this to be true with my kids. They don't
seem to have disdain for their toys or life in general. They don't
seem jaded or having no appreciation. They have more stuffed animals
than we know what to do with, but each has about two Very Special
Friends.

Anyway ... I was just wondering if anyone had any comments on these
VERY common ideas. Have you seen it in action? Any reason why it's
so popular? Any truth to it at all?

Jenny

--- In [email protected], Leslie530@a... wrote:

> I grew up in a household where "wanting" and "getting" were
loaded subjects.
> It wasn't really considered a bad thing to want something, and
we had huge
> generous birthdays and Christmases. But, my mom would always
hear that voice
> she grew up with and say "you always get too much, you don't need
that
> much". In her childhood, frugalness was (and still is to much of
my family) the
> ultimate virtue. Even if someone has plenty of money, it is
frowned upon to
> spend in any sort of flashy way. Some don't own pets as that is
considered a
> waste of money.

Deb

I'll apply it to chocolate chip cookies (a fav at our house). When I
make them rarely, because it's a hot sticky summer or whatever, when
I do make them, DS is delighted. AND he eats them as fast as he can
and pines for them when they're gone. When I make them every week
(or even twice a week), he still hops all around the kitchen
grinning gleefully because he knows there are cookies coming BUT he
can take his time eating them and not be sorrowful when they're gone
because he knows there will be more. He operates out of a sense of
abundance rather than a sense of scarcity/hoarding.

Recently, we were doing some rearranging in his room and suggested
that maybe he could pick out some stuffed animals of his pile (it's
about 3'x3'x3' of stuffed critters of all shapes and sizes and
colors and textures) that could be donated or given to his toddler
cousin. He looked the pile over carefully and found -one- that he
was willing to give to his cousin. Each one is special in some way -
he won it at a carnival or got it as a gift or whatever. We have a 3
ft tall Tigger body pillow like critter that we got him when he
broke his wrist as a toddler - we'd stretch that along the side of
his crib so that his cast wouldn't get caught and he could sleep
more comfortably. Then there's Purple Bear - DH won it for me on our
first 'official' date (which was a couple months after we started
dating lol). It is the holder of hugs and kisses from me to DS when
I go to work (because it is the color of my 'purple part' - the part
of a mommy's brain that spends 24/7 thinking about that child -
every mommy has one or more depending on number of children and each
one is a different color, mine just happens to be purple). And so
on. It's not because he has too few so he must hold them tightly.
It's not because he has so many that he's being acquisitive. It's
because they represent his full, rich, loving life and he can't bear
to part with the memories.

I think the ideas you mention are so popular because they harken
back to our Puritan ancestors and the idea that 'fun' is 'bad'.

--Deb
PS Pets can actually save money in some ways - they've been shown to
help people stay healthier in many ways (lower blood pressure, lower
incidence of depression, get people up and moving, etc) and that
ends up saving money in the long run.

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/20/2006 2:06:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
beanmommy2@... writes:

The idea seems to be that children (and people in general) will
enjoy life more if "fun things" are doled out in very small amounts.

The other (similar) idea I always hear is that kids will take better
care of their things and not lose them easily and stuff if they have
less.



****************

Jenny, my thoughts on this are that these things might have some truth to
them, but you can't force it on someone else.

My grandmother gave away nearly everything she owned and loved having that
freedom. The problem was she assumed everyone needed or wanted that same kind
of freedom. I would laugh at her and say "it IS useful to me to own more
than two pairs of underwear....I don't do laundry that often and I have no
inclination to rinse them in the sink as you do!"

What I do (or try to do) with my children is allow them the freedom to own
as much as they would like, within the boundaries of "what makes sense" and
budget. Then lots of discussion about my own spending habits. The other day,
I made an impulse buy that turned out to be a dud. When a natural
opportunity presented itself, I talked about my mistake and that next time I'll try to
think twice about doing it again.

I recently packed up a bunch of my unused clothing for charity. My daughter
was very upset. I had to explain to her several times, but she finally got
it. I said "I'm sad to give these things away that I once loved, but they
don't fit me or I don't love them as much as I used to. I'm going to give them
to someone that will be able to love them now."

My children have a lot of toys and love every single one. My problem is we
have no place to put them all and as a military family, we'll have to move
again before too long. I'm hoping by then (and with lots of doing this myself)
that they will be able to release some of their things. If not, we'll
figure out a way to manage while still giving them a choice.

Leslie in SC (still chatty!)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanne

Interesting topic.
My feeling is that it has much to do with the person themselves and
how they are being/were raised.

Before I adopted my children, they spent 4 years in the foster care
system and were given loads and loads of stuff over the
years...trips, computers, playstations...I'm not just talking about
inexpensive items. They had more toys and games than any child I had
known.

It's not so much different than how we live now...we go places, we
have video games, we have three computers.
But the BIG difference is their lifestyle is different now.

Before, they were given stuff to replace love, attention, security...
They have love, attention & security now and are at different levels
in allowing themselves to accept it into their lives.

Before, they were never given an opportunity to show appreciation or
gratitude. They were expected to fill the hole in their heart with a
trip to Disney...given to them by a faceless company wanting to help
foster kids.
Now, we plan our trips as a family and we talk about how we
appreciate it and all the fun were going to have.

When my three moved in, they were in the mindset of "getting
whatever they could". They only cared about what "we could do/buy
for them". Years of foster care had done that to them.

They're not all at the same healing level yet so we do deal with
some of that still...mostly with just Cimion now but at one time it
was all three.

My point is that it depends on how a child lives...the stuff itself
is not the problem. It's how it's given and why it's given. At least
that what I've seen with my three.

One of the things that really helped us, was something I did called
our "Grateful Wall". I have an small, empty wall space near the
entrance to our family room. I covered it in card stock and
wrote, "I AM GRATEFUL..." in big letters along the top. I them
invited my family to write and add to it whenever they wanted. There
are about 65 entries on it and they're so good for the soul to read!
(Especially when they're about me! It just makes my day) :-)

Oh by the way...we're quite frugal. We're five people and two pets
on one salary. It's more than just cutting back though-it's more of
a mindset for me. I like to save money and comparision shop and look
for creative ways to stretch our money. My kids actually think it's
smart and it has led to interesting conversations about money
management.

~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (7), Shawna (10) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 30, 2003
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/







--- In [email protected], "beanmommy2"
<beanmommy2@y...> wrote:
>
> I was just thinking about this earlier today, mostly because the
> girls have so much stuff right now that I just have trouble
managing
> it. What I've always heard is that the more you have, the less you
> care or appreciate any of it. For example, if you have twenty
> stuffed animals you might not even notice if you lose one, but if
> you have one or two, you will cherish them and they'll be very
> special to you.
>
> If you've ever read The Tightwad Gazette (a very interesting
> compilation of newsletters), the author shares a story about going
> to a garage sale and a boy was selling a TON of GI Joe stuff and
> almost seemed to have a certain disdain for them. She also talks
> about how her kids really appreciate going out for ice cream since
> they do it very rarely.
>
> The idea seems to be that children (and people in general) will
> enjoy life more if "fun things" are doled out in very small
amounts.
>
> The other (similar) idea I always hear is that kids will take
better
> care of their things and not lose them easily and stuff if they
have
> less.
>
> I'm not sure if I've found this to be true with my kids. They
don't
> seem to have disdain for their toys or life in general. They don't
> seem jaded or having no appreciation. They have more stuffed
animals
> than we know what to do with, but each has about two Very Special
> Friends.
>
> Anyway ... I was just wondering if anyone had any comments on
these
> VERY common ideas. Have you seen it in action? Any reason why it's
> so popular? Any truth to it at all?
>
> Jenny
>
> --- In [email protected], Leslie530@a... wrote:
>
> > I grew up in a household where "wanting" and "getting" were
> loaded subjects.
> > It wasn't really considered a bad thing to want something, and
> we had huge
> > generous birthdays and Christmases. But, my mom would always
> hear that voice
> > she grew up with and say "you always get too much, you don't
need
> that
> > much". In her childhood, frugalness was (and still is to much
of
> my family) the
> > ultimate virtue. Even if someone has plenty of money, it is
> frowned upon to
> > spend in any sort of flashy way. Some don't own pets as that
is
> considered a
> > waste of money.
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/20/2006 2:53:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
billyandjoanne@... writes:

My point is that it depends on how a child lives...the stuff itself
is not the problem. It's how it's given and why it's given. At least
that what I've seen with my three. *****************


Yes! I agree. Excellent point.

But many kids still like to get stuff. I don't think it is an either/or
type of thing.

I love your "grateful wall" idea! Very nice.

********Oh by the way...we're quite frugal. We're five people and two pets
on one salary. It's more than just cutting back though-it's more of
a mindset for me. I like to save money and comparision shop and look
for creative ways to stretch our money. My kids actually think it's
smart and it has led to interesting conversations about money
management. *************

I hope you didn't take my using frugal as a negative thing. I meant
frugality as a virtue.....there are those in my family that think themselves
superior because they live this value and judge others that don't. My husband grew
up in Greece and experienced a culture based more on abundance. They throw
big parties and spend lavishly on their friends. There is no such thing as
"splitting the check" where he grew up, that was an insult. I realized after I
married him that although there is lots of room for common sense frugality,
it didn't mean it was "right" as a lifestyle above others. I had just never
known another way.

It has been good for me, because my knee-jerk reaction is often different
from his. It has given me a reason to examine my "knee-jerks" to see if they
are based on truth and common sense or to my own conditioning.

Leslie in SC





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Susan Ide Patton susanpatton@...

TV, though, still seems like an entirely different beast. My objection to
watching isn't that I necessarily think it isn't "educational", if I may be
forgiven for using that word. I still tend to think that it is, in fact,
somewhat addictive (not like cocaine, but perhaps like marijuana...which
hasn't had any studies that unarguably demonstrate it is harmful either and
certainly it isn't incredibly addictive) so that it isn't quite a matter of
trusting my child to turn it off...I think that perhaps some kids might need
HELP in turning it off (once it is on in the first place).

-=-=-=-

Then how do you explain that all our kids aren't "addicted" to TV? How do you explain that
our kids CAN turn it off even when it's on in the first place?

Trust.

-=-=-=-


And besides the addictive part, I really don't like that advertisers and TV
professionals are being allowed into my home freely to seek out my children
and get them to want things...things that they would not have wanted or
known about if they had never watched TV in the first place. Not just
things, either, but ways of talking and acting. Unfriendly, whiney ways of
acting and talking. Stereotypical ways of acting, like coming to assume that
little sisters are "a pain and annoying" because that is what is portrayed
on TV.
-=-=-=-

The advertising: I'd rather my son make a bad $10 decision NOW than a bad $10,000 decision later. I'd rather that he learn HOW advertising works NOW.

Talking and acting: I want my children's worlds BIGGER than what's at home. We talk about Ed, Edd, and Eddy and Angelica and Red and why they act the way they do---AND that they're ACTORS playing parts. Usually stereotypes.

Plus, children go through phases of trying on different personae. Both of mine have been dogs and superheroes for extended periods. Cameron imitated Bevis and Butthead for months (ugh!)---but it's a phase. Duncan does Family Guy's Peter occasionally. Hardly role models! <g> But they KNOW they're not! They're just playing. Good thing Tom Hanks' and Sean Connery's moms didn't discourage THEM! <G>

-=-=-=-

So do your kids never ask for things that they have seen on TV? And do you
really not see any behavior changes that you attribute to characters on TV
shows? I am asking because I see those things in my kids and the idea of
letting them watch unlimited TV is difficult for me to imagine. I truly feel
like I am letting them wander into a forest alone....or something like that.

-=-=-

Both. But neither lasts. They learn. They grow. And they were never all alone. I was always right there, talking about the chrarcter or the products. We're NOT hands-OFF; we're hands-ON!


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanne

--- In [email protected], Leslie530@a... wrote:
>>>I hope you didn't take my using frugal as a negative thing.>>>


No, not at all! :-)
I only used that word because it was in the title.

Thanks about the Grateful Wall. It turned out to be such a fun thing. I
love reading...we all do. :-)

~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (7), Shawna (10) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 30, 2003
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/

[email protected]

>>For example, if you have twenty
stuffed animals you might not even notice if you lose one, but if
you have one or two, you will cherish them and they'll be very
special to you.>>

And if you can afford only one small meal every other day you'd probably REALLY appreciate every scrap of food you could get.

Sharing a sense of gratitude and appreciation with our kids is a good thing. Setting up an artificial sense of neediness won't bring about that sense of wanting what you have and having all that you want.

--
~Mary, unschooling mom to Conor (16) and Casey (11)

"Just today I'm going to be utterly present for my children, I'm going to be in their world (not just doing my own thing while they do theirs), I'm going to really hear them, I'm going to prepare myself to be present starting right now."
~Ren Allen




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alexandra & Brian Polikowsky

I completely disagree with that idea in my experience. My son is only 3 and half and has more than 50 Thomas The Thank Engine "engines/car sets". He loves every single one of them. We have at least 6 or 7 Thomas and he knows minimal diferrences between them.
He cherishes every single one he has. Of course he likes some more than others. Actually he is pretty much like that with all his toys, games, puzzles, books... and he has tons of it.
Alex
----- Original Message -----
From: beanmommy2


I was just thinking about this earlier today, mostly because the
girls have so much stuff right now that I just have trouble managing
it. What I've always heard is that the more you have, the less you
care or appreciate any of it. For example, if you have twenty
stuffed animals you might not even notice if you lose one, but if
you have one or two, you will cherish them and they'll be very
special to you.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 20, 2006, at 5:06 PM, zenmomma@... wrote:

> Setting up an artificial sense of neediness won't bring about that
> sense of wanting what you have and having all that you want.

And when life is a roadblock to what they'd like to have kids can see
why and work to solve the problem.

When a parent is a roadblock in order to create a frugal environment
and teach a lesson, it's a very different situation. The children
know the parents are deliberately limiting them and their reactions
to the roadblock is often argument, anger, sneaking, resentfulness
and, well, basically nothing positive!

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]