question about tv

Ren Allen

19 Jan 2006, at 12:42pm

" but I see that TV is a big part of a lot of people's

> lives. "

I was just re-reading the posts and had to laugh at this.:)
I hope you don't mind me laughing at part of what you said..not
laughing at your words, laughing about the reality here, that's all.

Two of my free children, that have a HUGE tv in Sierra's room have
spent this morning dressing up (a witch and batman), showing me
"tricks" and now are outside doing something noisy. I can hear
something getting hit (maybe a bucket) not sure.
In and out they go, showing me stuff every so often. Sierra just
reported that all our bird feeders got knocked off the deck by high
winds. They're getting shoes on now, to go rescue all of the bird
feeders.
The television hasn't been on yet today.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

odiniella

6 Apr 2011, at 12:37pm

I'm not a big tv watcher. I'll watch with the family in the evenings,
but most of the time I'm doing something else while it's on. I never
turn it on during the day for myself. My kids will put it on regularly.
Not all day, but they do sit and watch more than I'd like. They've both
been to traditional brick and mortar school for years (through 5th grade
and 3rd grade) and only recently have I stopped schooling at home (they
are now 13 and 11). No more curriculum to follow, no more assignments
to keep up with. I finally comprehend "deschooling" and we're only just
started (maybe a month) and I figure this tv habit is part of my kids
deschooling. I'm curious how I should respond to it. Right now I
don't, instead I'm offering other things to do, through co-op classes
and field trips. We're going to the library often now. They kids are
finding instructions to make things on youtube so I try to accommodate
their needs (getting a few things at Ace or keeping the table free for
Nerf Gun modification).
I see them sit and watch tv when their bored, not just to relax or wind
down, and it's that boredom that I want to address. Honestly, I'm
concerned that they'll develop the habit of couch potatoes because
that's what makes sense to me, although I'm learning that unschooling
really works nothing like what I've always thought makes sense. I'd
love to hear thoughts of those who are more familiar and experienced.
Helen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tina Tarbutton

6 Apr 2011, at 1:34pm

Draven has some form of electronics playing nearly 24/7. He's either
playing on Xbox live, or watching YouTube videos about any number of things
or watching TV while playing with something else. Sometimes more than one
of those things are happening at the same time (he's often watching YouTube
while watching TV). He also falls asleep while watching TV and only
sometimes remembers to set the sleep timer. Since he goes to bed long after
me, I typically turn it off when I wake up if he seems to be sleeping
soundly (otherwise the silence wakes him up).

This developed over time though, we're about two years into unschooling at
this point, maybe less. At first when we lifted TV restriction there was
lots of what I thought was boredom TV watching, but really it was him trying
to get in as much as he could before I replaced the restrictions. There
were many hours of very passive "couch potato" type behavior. Now that he's
pretty comfortable with the idea that I won't restrict it anymore, he's more
comfortable using it as background noise, or as something to get ideas from
to further his imaginative play. When TV is playing he's normally standing
up in front of his bed setting up some huge battle scene with halo figures.

If I would have constantly tried to redirect his attention away from that
passive watching, I think he would have gotten the impression that I was
still judging his TV time and TV use, and he wouldn't have had the
opportunity to develop his own relationship with that particular medium.

If your kids were instead sitting on the couch passively reading when they
were bored, would you have the same reaction? Treat TV the same way you
treat anything else, it's just one of many options that they have in the
day, provide an exciting environment for them to choose from and then don't
judge their choices.

Yesterday I found some cork board and magnetic dry erase board squares on
clearance at Walmart. I also found some neat looking notebooks and pencils,
also on clearance. We put up the boards in his room and played with the
magnets and push pins for awhile. When I went to bed he was playing with
action figures and watching TV. This morning when I checked on him he had
many drawings and things he'd written up on the cork boards and some designs
on the dry erase boards. I'm pretty sure these things happened with the TV
on in the background (it was still on this morning). I provided something I
thought he'd be interested in, and helped him hang it up, but then I left
it, he chose how to use it and when. I feel the same way about TV, I
provide the TV and the cable, he chooses how to use it and when. If I try
to direct his use of the things I provide he won't have the chance to
develop his own relationship with those things. TV included.

Hope that helps.

Tina

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 12:37 PM, odiniella <hgaimari@...> wrote:

>
>
> I'm not a big tv watcher. I'll watch with the family in the evenings,
> but most of the time I'm doing something else while it's on. I never
> turn it on during the day for myself. My kids will put it on regularly.
> Not all day, but they do sit and watch more than I'd like. They've both
> been to traditional brick and mortar school for years (through 5th grade
> and 3rd grade) and only recently have I stopped schooling at home (they
> are now 13 and 11). No more curriculum to follow, no more assignments
> to keep up with. I finally comprehend "deschooling" and we're only just
> started (maybe a month) and I figure this tv habit is part of my kids
> deschooling. I'm curious how I should respond to it. Right now I
> don't, instead I'm offering other things to do, through co-op classes
> and field trips. We're going to the library often now. They kids are
> finding instructions to make things on youtube so I try to accommodate
> their needs (getting a few things at Ace or keeping the table free for
> Nerf Gun modification).
> I see them sit and watch tv when their bored, not just to relax or wind
> down, and it's that boredom that I want to address. Honestly, I'm
> concerned that they'll develop the habit of couch potatoes because
> that's what makes sense to me, although I'm learning that unschooling
> really works nothing like what I've always thought makes sense. I'd
> love to hear thoughts of those who are more familiar and experienced.
> Helen
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

--
Unschooling Untitled <http://www.unschoolinguntitled.com> (
http://www.unschoolinguntitled.com )
Living an unschooled lifestyle, one experience at a time!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

odiniella

6 Apr 2011, at 2:40pm

--- In [email protected], Tina Tarbutton
<tina.tarbutton@...> wrote:
I

> provide the TV and the cable, he chooses how to use it and when. If I

try

> to direct his use of the things I provide he won't have the chance to
> develop his own relationship with those things. TV included.
>
> Hope that helps.
>
> Tina

It does, thank you! If I can think out loud for a moment more, what I
understand from this idea is that as long as I attribute value to the
choices my kids make, they'll be inspired to respond to MY thoughts
about something rather than develop their own. If they aren't really
free to develop their own thoughts about things, I will have limited
their creativity, which is the opposite of my goal. In reality, I want
them to have the same general value system, but not necessarily defined
by the same things. "Creativity" may look different to my son because
he thinks differently than I do, but as long as he does pick up on the
values of respect and consideration and compassion, and things like
this, *how* he goes about it can be up to him, free from my own
influence (well, as much as possible).
I'm trying not to catastrophize the worst-case-scenario of developing
couch potatoes here. Unschooling, and in particular removing *my*
judgments on things of value, ought to develop a far more creative kind
of adult than the couch potato I fear, because they won't be reacting to
tv (or anything) as "forbidden fruit" to be hoarded when possible, but a
tool to be used in moderation (keeping in mind, "moderation" is
subjective).
Is this close?
Helen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

odiniella

6 Apr 2011, at 2:40pm

--- In [email protected], Tina Tarbutton
<tina.tarbutton@...> wrote:
I

> provide the TV and the cable, he chooses how to use it and when. If I

try

> to direct his use of the things I provide he won't have the chance to
> develop his own relationship with those things. TV included.
>
> Hope that helps.
>
> Tina

Tina Tarbutton

6 Apr 2011, at 3:28pm

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 2:40 PM, odiniella <hgaimari@...> wrote:

> . Unschooling, and in particular removing *my*
> judgments on things of value, ought to develop a far more creative kind
> of adult than the couch potato I fear, because they won't be reacting to
> tv (or anything) as "forbidden fruit" to be hoarded when possible, but a
> tool to be used in moderation (keeping in mind, "moderation" is
> subjective).
>

Moderation is very much subjective. I'm on the computer at least 10 minutes
out of every waking hour, and frequently spend 2-3 hours at a time in front
of it. To some that's way too much, if I had a small child it
would certainly be way too much, for me it's the right amount of time. My
partner spends about 1 hour a day or less on the computer. Draven spends
lots of 5 minute spurts on the computer. Which one is right?

I watch maybe 2 hours of TV per week. My partner watches 2-3 hours a day or
more, and Draven has the TV or video games on constantly. Which one is
right?

I grew up with very little restriction on TV time, Parker had a moderate
amount of restriction, but also spent 3 years in another country without
much access to TV. My parents watch way more TV than I do. I don't think
any of that really affected our adult decisions about TV.

Expecting your children to develop the same values as you in regards to
media is unreasonable no matter what form of lifestyle you lead (unschooling
or traditional parenting) because individual people have different values.
Children who are raised in strict households may adhere to their parents
values until they move out, but then they develop their own values anyway.
Unschooled children have the freedom to develop those values in a more
natural way over a longer period of time, without fighting against the
imposed authority of their parents.

An example that is away from TV. I'm living with my parents right now. We
moved in to help out with my stepfather, who had a stroke. He is a very
strict, negative man and while he says very little about our lifestyle, and
has finally stopped trying to correct Draven for every little thing, it's
still hard living with him. He and my mom are leaving this evening for an
extended RV trip. We probably won't change anything about the way we live
once they're gone, however we're looking forward to living without being
judged for our every move. We're also planning on being in our own place
again by the time that they get back, now that our help is no longer needed.
Financially there is a huge benefit to living here, and my mother loves
having us here, but living with my stepfather's constant, silent, negative,
judgement looming over us is too much to bear.

The most important thing to me, with unschooling, is that Draven never feel
like that towards us. I want him always to feel welcome in our home,
without judgement, without negativity, no matter how old or young he is.
That's not saying I don't want him to eventually have his own home and his
own life separate from me, but I don't want him longing for that life the
closer he gets to 18. I want our home to always be his home too, instead of
some place he feels stuck until he hits some magical age, or until he saves
up enough money or until whatever.

I don't unschool so he develops my value system, I don't unschool so he
controls his own TV use. I unschool to develop a wonderful, loving,
positive relationship within my family.

Tina

--
Unschooling Untitled <http://www.unschoolinguntitled.com/> (
http://www.unschoolinguntitled.com )

Living an unschooled lifestyle, one experience at a time!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Adrian

6 Apr 2011, at 4:11pm

--- In [email protected], "odiniella" <hgaimari@...> wrote:

>
> I'm not a big tv watcher. I'll watch with the family in the evenings,
> but most of the time I'm doing something else while it's on. I never
> turn it on during the day for myself. My kids will put it on regularly.
> Not all day, but they do sit and watch more than I'd like. They've both
> been to traditional brick and mortar school for years (through 5th grade
> and 3rd grade) and only recently have I stopped schooling at home (they
> are now 13 and 11). No more curriculum to follow, no more assignments
> to keep up with. I finally comprehend "deschooling" and we're only just
> started (maybe a month) and I figure this tv habit is part of my kids
> deschooling. I'm curious how I should respond to it. Right now I
> don't, instead I'm offering other things to do, through co-op classes
> and field trips. We're going to the library often now. They kids are
> finding instructions to make things on youtube so I try to accommodate
> their needs (getting a few things at Ace or keeping the table free for
> Nerf Gun modification).
> I see them sit and watch tv when their bored, not just to relax or wind
> down, and it's that boredom that I want to address. Honestly, I'm
> concerned that they'll develop the habit of couch potatoes because
> that's what makes sense to me, although I'm learning that unschooling
> really works nothing like what I've always thought makes sense. I'd
> love to hear thoughts of those who are more familiar and experienced.
> Helen
>

Hi, Helen. I'm new to unschooling as well -- actually, just exploring it at this point as an alternative for our child-to-be. TV is obviously a hot topic with unschoolers; I've been on a few of these discussion boards for about two weeks now, and already this topic has come up three times.

My thought is that even if I let my kids self-direct their education, it's still my job as a parent to provide guidance. If you're concerned that your kids are spending too much time in front of the TV, I see nothing wrong with encouraging them to find something else to do, whether it's read a book, go on a bike ride, start a craft project, load the dishwasher, whatever. If it gets to the point where they're spending most or all of the day in front of the tube, I'd have no problem rationing their viewing time. I look at TV as a very addictive drug (and scientific studies tend to bear this out, in terms of TV's physical effect on the brain), and sometimes even grown adults need some amount of "intervention" to get them to hit the off button.

Bear in mind that I come from a point of view of having little use for TV in the first place. My wife and I were talking about pulling the plug before we even had a child on the way. Our TV goes on maybe two or three times a month, and then it's almost always to watch a sporting event. It's just not worth the $90-a-month cable bill. So our decision is practical as much as it is ethical (and I won't drone on about that here).

But if you're a TV family, I really think it just boils down to common sense. Moderation in all things. You need a healthy balance. If you're worried about the boredom factor, just help your kids find other interests and outlets. It sounds like you're doing a great job of that already. Hopefully their interests in these other areas will grow enough that their interest in zoning out in front of the TV will wane all on its own, as they find how much fun it is to engage their bodies and their active, imaginative minds in these other activities.

Good luck.

Adrian

odiniella

6 Apr 2011, at 4:41pm

--- In [email protected], Tina Tarbutton
<tina.tarbutton@...> wrote:

> I don't unschool so he develops my value system, I don't unschool so

> controls his own TV use. I unschool to develop a wonderful, loving,
> positive relationship within my family.
>
>
>
> Tina

If I may play Devil's Advocate here and sound like the nervous educator,
I know this can be accomplished in a variety of ways, as evidenced by
those who come from traditional family structures and maintain close
ties for a lifetime. From the outside, the idea of watching tv all day
doesn't correspond to the skills needed for independence in adulthood,
and I think that's the driving motivation to formalize education. I'm
finding the formal education plan has flaws inherent in the system but
ultimately I want my kids to feel their lives are not lacking in
satisfaction for them, and that means giving them the skills they'll
need to do what interests them as adults. How does unschooling (would
this be considered radical unschooling?) prepare them to this end?
Helen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

6 Apr 2011, at 5:21pm

Unschoolers are not being prepared for real life, they are living in real life
*right now*!!
My kids are young at 8 (will be 9 end of June) and just 5 and I have been
reading about unschooling for 8 years now.
I have grown up with unlimited TV and no restriction on what to watch and so
have my children.
I really do not get all the fear that children are going to grow up and do
nothing but watch TV or that
they could just watch TV all day long.
My son is an avid gamer but even him takes breaks, plays with his sister for
hours, was just helping his dad do chores because
he wanted to and plays lots of basketball on our almost half court ( birthday
present last year).
He as a brand new PS3, a Wii, an X-Box 360, may games, membership to GameFly,
his own computer in his room and his own
TV. He also has many games he plays online.
He has his own YouTube account and his own video camera he makes movies.
One would think that he would spend the whole day on those. He does not.
We do many things, go many places, play a lot outside, he helps his dad
do chores on our Dairy Farm.
He does Scouts and 4-H and he loves to talk to me about everything.
He is living in real life everyday. He knows about so many things kids in school
have no idea and I am not
talking about schoolish stuff but real life stuff.

I do not want to live a life preparing a child for when he grows up. It may
never happen. The
future is not guaranteed. What I can is create a rich environment where he
can live and learn in real life right now.
I can be there, as a partner, to help him navigate the big world. I can make
their world bigger and wider, or I

can make it smaller. I rather make it bigger.

Alex Polikowsky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

6 Apr 2011, at 7:12pm

"odiniella" <hgaimari@...> wrote:

>If I can think out loud for a moment more, what I
> understand from this idea is that as long as I attribute value to the
> choices my kids make, they'll be inspired to respond to MY thoughts
> about something rather than develop their own. If they aren't really
> free to develop their own thoughts about things, I will have limited
> their creativity, which is the opposite of my goal.

I think you're on the right track, but try not to polarize your thinking too much. It's not a matter of *either* being responsive *or* being creative - creativity itself depends on inspiration. It can help to think about the way various arts are classically taught - people are encouraged to imitate other artists at first (selected artists, anyway) and use that as a basis for developing skills and ideas. Without directive teaching, though, people do that naturally - they discover "influences" from observing a range of art that has already been produced in the medium of interest. More sophisticated artists spend a lot of time taking in others' works - in the same medium and others. Do you see what I mean? Your input is important, but it isn't the only thing that's important or even the most important thing (which can be a crushing blow to parental egos - are you feeling strong?).

>Unschooling, and in particular removing *my*
> judgments on things of value, ought to develop a far more creative kind
> of adult

Depends on what you mean by "judgements". Discernment matters! and it can be a source of valuable information. It's knee-jerk criticism that you want to avoid. Jumping to "this is stupid" will get in your kids way. Noticing what your kids like about one program and using your critical thinking skills to find something similar to allow them to expand their worlds, however, is a fantastic use of judement.

---Meredith

plaidpanties666

6 Apr 2011, at 7:34pm

"odiniella" <hgaimari@...> wrote:

>From the outside, the idea of watching tv all day
> doesn't correspond to the skills needed for independence in adulthood

*******************

Something that helps a lot with unschooling is starting from the assumption that "independence in adulthood" is something that's natural for people to want. You don't have to push the hatchlings out of the nest, when they're ready, they'll go! It also helps to keep in mind that real life doesn't look like school. It's not a matter of slowly building skills and independence at a dull grind, its more like physical growth where things seem to happen in spurts.

If creativity is an important idea to you, then think of watching tv as soaking up artwork and context. Tv is chock full of audio and visual art and like a lot of art the good stuff is full of context and references to other art. Tv is also a wonderful source of information in and of itself - not always accurate, but neither is any one source. Interest in a particular subject leads to cross-checking sources, anyway.

>>giving them the skills they'll
> need to do what interests them as adults. How does unschooling (would
> this be considered radical unschooling?) prepare them to this end?

By treating their interests as valid - vital even! right now. By valuing what they value so that they are empowered to pursue their interests right now. By helping them overcome hurdles between them and what they want so that they get used to the idea that limits and problems are hurdles to be overcome, not brick walls to batter against in vain. And because it's natural for kids to want more independence and more of a sense of personal competence, over time they'll take on more of the problem solving and use you more as one of many resources. But it likely won't be schoolish, steady progress! It will be jumps and rests, big growing periods and times of lying fallow, waiting for spring, with no way to know when spring will come until its here.

---Meredith

plaidpanties666

6 Apr 2011, at 7:56pm

"Adrian" <amrush71@...> wrote:

> I look at TV as a very addictive drug (and scientific studies tend to bear this out, in terms of TV's physical effect on the brain), and sometimes even grown adults need some amount of "intervention" to get them to hit the off button.

****************

It helps to keep in mind that studies are done on school kids - and school kids have a number of very good reasons to drug themselves into numbness. If your kids don't have reasons to do that, they'll have a vastly different relationship with tv.

>>My wife and I were talking about pulling the plug before we even had a child on the way.

*******************

Since even by the loosest of definitions you aren't yet unschooling, its a Great time to give you the Most Important piece of advice for unschooling "from the start": EASE IN. For your own sanity as much as anything else - you'll be the one doing all the deschooling (and you will be, even if you start now, things in your child's life will trigger thoughts and feelings from your past and you'll be deschooling again, I promise!) so set yourself up to say Yes with an open heart, and then stretch a little and say Yes some more. That's better for you And for your relationship with your child.

So in terms of tv (or sugar, or video games, the other two scaries), start where you're comfortable, but with the understanding that this is an issue where you'll eventually be doing some stretching. Read stories of happy, busy unschoolers who happen to use tv as one of the tools in their life to help you relax on the subject. Expect to be a helper, not a barricade. That's enough to get you started ;) The Good news about tv is that its changing so much right now that there are more choices all the time - its not a case of 700 channels or nothing, and there's no goal to get to 700 channels.

Easing in is still good advice for people coming to unschooling with older kids, by the way. It's better to say yes more and build up trust than to dump all the rules at once and panic everyone in the family, yourself included - but it doesn't always work out that way! Some kids catch on to "say yes more" and want to know what's up. And some kids really do need to have their parents step away from the wall, as it were, and get right out and swim in the deep water so they have time to heal and grow a bit before they're grown. Older kids need you to stretch as much as you possibly can Right Now!

>>their interest in zoning out in front of the TV

Here's a place to start easing ;) Question that assumption. It helped me, when I was new to unschooling, to turn assumptions like that on their head and ask "if that's Not what's happening, what Else could be going on?" If they aren't zoning out....? Some people have very flat affect when they are concentrating. Others take in a lot of information in a more relaxed state - zoning "in" if you like. And there's a looooooot of information in the combination of audio and visual input from a show or movie, lots going on, which means there's often a lot of learning happening while someone is watching tv - whether watching a sitcom or nature show, cartoon, adventure, history, action flick..... "tv" isn't a monolithic thing, after all, its a conglomeration of resources especially in this time when "tv" can include movies and internet as well.

---Meredith

odiniella

6 Apr 2011, at 8:06pm

--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<polykowholsteins@...> wrote:

>
> Unschoolers are not being prepared for real life, they are living in

real life

> *right now*!!

This is one happy consequence I'm finding.

****

> I really do not get all the fear that children are going to grow up

and do

> nothing but watch TV or that
> they could just watch TV all day long.

Old habits die hard and I've been trained to prepare my kids for working
a job that won't embarrass their grandparents. Okay, that's a cynical
answer, but in addition to that, I know enough people who do little more
than work a non skilled job to pay the bills and watch tv, waiting for
"something" to happen. Granted, their childhoods were spent in school
awaiting the next assignment (as I think someone had mentioned to me in
an earlier thread), but the image is a strong one and hard to shake
without examples to the contrary.

> He is living in real life everyday. He knows about so many things kids

in school

> have no idea and I am not
> talking about schoolish stuff but real life stuff.

I appreciate this perspective. I'd love to hear more.

****

> I do not want to live a life preparing a child for when he grows up.

It may

> never happen. The
> future is not guaranteed.

> can live and learn in real life right now.
> I can be there, as a partner, to help him navigate the big world. I

can make

> their world bigger and wider, or I
>
> can make it smaller. I rather make it bigger.
>
>
> Alex Polikowsky

I appreciate your taking the time to share this with me. Thanks!
Helen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

6 Apr 2011, at 8:11pm

>

<<<<<My thought is that even if I let my kids self-direct their education, it's
still my job as a parent to provide guidance. >>>>>

Unschooling is a lot less about self-directed education and much more about
being a partner to your children

<<<<If you're concerned that your kids are spending too much time in front of
the TV, I see nothing wrong with encouraging them to find something else to do,
whether it's read a book, go on a bike ride, start a craft project, load the
dishwasher, whatever.>>>>

How would you feel if your wife thought you were spending too much time on
something you like to do and she encouraged you to find something she thought
more valuable ( to her)? Would you feel closer to her or criticized by your
choice of how to spend your time? That does not mean you don;t offer or has
things available for your child other than TV but that you respect if your
child chooses to watch TV. There may be a lot if TV watching for children that
just came out of school or even grown ups after leaving a stressful environment
or situation. IF your children has many things available and opportunities to
do many other things other than watch TV you should respect and value if they
choose TV.
That can be really hard for children that had their TV restricted or limited
Here is a great link to read:
http://sandradodd.com/t/economics

<<<<< If it gets to the point where they're spending most or all of the day in
front of the tube, I'd have no problem rationing their viewing time. I look at
TV as a very addictive drug (and scientific studies tend to bear this out, in
terms of TV's physical effect on the brain), and sometimes even grown adults
need some amount of "intervention" to get them to hit the off button.>>>>>

Them how do you explain that uschooled children who have never been restricted
or limited do not sit all day watching TV? They may have days they watch more,
but they are certainly not addicted.
The funny thing is that I have had several different unschooling families come
to spend time with us and spend the night many times. I have DirectTV, Netflix
and videos and I have never had kid sit in front of he TV glued to it and not
wanting to even play so they could watch the 10 cartoon channels we have but I
have had kids come to visit that were restricted and those kids would sit in
front of the TV and not want to leave!! That was all they wanted to do. The
unschooled kids wanted to play and explore while here.

<<<<Bear in mind that I come from a point of view of having little use for TV in
the first place. My wife and I were talking about pulling the plug before we
even had a child on the way. Our TV goes on maybe two or three times a month,
and then it's almost always to watch a sporting event. It's just not worth the
$90-a-month cable bill. So our decision is practical as much as it is ethical
(and I won't drone on about that here). >>>

If you do not like it don't watch it. Some people do not like reading books. I
love TV and I love books. TV can be absolutely wonderful and you can learn so
much from it. Wonderful shows, news and even commercials can be awesome . Having
had a father who worked in Advertising, TV commercials have been a big source of
great discussion in our family and I even now with my kids. We can appreciate
all kinds o art!

<<<<<<But if you're a TV family, I really think it just boils down to common
sense. Moderation in all things. You need a healthy balance. If you're worried
about the boredom factor, just help your kids find other interests and outlets.
It sounds like you're doing a great job of that already. Hopefully their
interests in these other areas will grow enough that their interest in zoning
out in front of the TV will wane all on its own, as they find how much fun it is
to engage their bodies and their active, imaginative minds in these other
activities. >>>

Would you tell your child he needed to read less because everything needs to be
done in moderation?
TV watching can probably wane for Helen's kids unless she decides to limit them
and then keep going back and forth between trusting them and rationing (
intervening) with their TV watching. I agree that given time and support they
will find things they love to do, after they have been able to deschool, but
they may love TV and still watch more than Helen is comfortable with. Maybe
their career will have something to do with TV. Or maybe TV will lead them to
something they love. Maybe one day while being bored they will be changing
channels and come upon something they decide to try out and that will lead them
to a lot of joy and learning. Could be training dogs like Cezar Millan of the
Dog Whisperer, of baking cakes because of Cake Boss, or decorating on HGTV, so
many different things on TV nowadays it is amazing. Make their wolrd bigger,
open doors, do not shut them down because you do not like it or you do not value
them.
Your children are not you.

Here are some things to read ( well lots of)
http://sandradodd.com/tv

Alex Polikowsky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

odiniella

6 Apr 2011, at 8:11pm

--- In [email protected], "Adrian" <amrush71@...> wrote:

> If you're worried about the boredom factor, just help your kids find

other interests and outlets. It sounds like you're doing a great job of
that already. Hopefully their interests in these other areas will grow
enough that their interest in zoning out in front of the TV will wane
all on its own, as they find how much fun it is to engage their bodies
and their active, imaginative minds in these other activities.

>
> Good luck.
>
> Adrian

Thanks, Adrian! I think I'm starting to get the hang of unschooling
more and more as I process these questions. I think this, right here,
is where my focus really ought to be. If my kids are bored, tv isn't
the problem. The kids not knowing what to do with their time is
probably the problem. Sometimes the tv goes on purposefully and I'm
okay with that but when it goes on because they don't know what else to
do with themselves, I feel like it's not the best solution to their
problem.
I didn't know this topic has been discussed three times so recently!
Ooops.

Helen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

odiniella

6 Apr 2011, at 8:13pm

--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666"
<plaidpanties666@...> wrote:

> Depends on what you mean by "judgements". Discernment matters! and it

can be a source of valuable information. It's knee-jerk criticism that
you want to avoid. Jumping to "this is stupid" will get in your kids
way. Noticing what your kids like about one program and using your
critical thinking skills to find something similar to allow them to
expand their worlds, however, is a fantastic use of judement.

>
> ---Meredith

This I can get! And thank you for the artist analogy. That was
perfect.
Helen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

odiniella

6 Apr 2011, at 8:25pm

--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666"
<plaidpanties666@...> wrote:

> Something that helps a lot with unschooling is starting from the

assumption that "independence in adulthood" is something that's natural
for people to want. You don't have to push the hatchlings out of the
nest, when they're ready, they'll go!
Wow how I have been conditioned. I recall my children's first years as
all about learning how to do things independently. They wanted to do
what they saw others doing without my help thankyouverymuch. Only when
they had a problem they couldn't solve did I step in. How funny to
think this would magically stop between year 4 and 5 of development
because kindergarten has begun. I'm seeing glimpses of it in my 13 year
old, just tiny little hints. But then, she's had a pretty tough time
until recently and so this is a big deal since she'd really become
withdrawn and suppressed herself for many years - oh, since about
kindergarten. :( >
****

> If creativity is an important idea to you, then think of watching tv

as soaking up artwork and context. Tv is chock full of audio and visual
art and like a lot of art the good stuff is full of context and
references to other art. Tv is also a wonderful source of information in
and of itself - not always accurate, but neither is any one source.
Interest in a particular subject leads to cross-checking sources,
anyway.
This I can see, too. A couple weeks ago my daughter was watching yet
another cake decorating show. My husband made mention of the fact that
she could do this as a career if she wanted, and started to talk about
how to offer her time at a bakery, get a summer job, etc. I realized
this was just one medium of creativity - not a career path; something to
explore, something to inspire. I've since stopped myself when I think
of the practical things she could do with an interest and just encourage
more exploration. Already I'm starting to see the fruits of this kind
of New Way for us but admittedly, I have a lot of conditioning to wade
through first.
This is really quite a new way of thinking for me, and I really
appreciate the patience and advice!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

6 Apr 2011, at 8:48pm

On Apr 6, 2011, at 4:11 PM, Adrian wrote:

> If you're concerned that your kids are spending too much time in
> front of the TV, I see nothing wrong with encouraging them to find
> something else to do

This is fairly mainstream advice which is why it's a good idea to read
for a while to get a feel for the list.

What the above says is the kids are choosing wrong and they won't
choose better unless mom or dad encourages them. That's a rather dim
(and unfortunately pervasively conventional) view of kids.

It's better for relationships, better for unschooling to assume kids
are choosing what's most interesting to them. If they're choosing TV
(or reading or building with Legos), then that's the most interesting
activity available.

If a parent was concerned that their child was only choosing TV, I'd
ask the parent to not look at what the child was (or wasn't) doing but
what she or he was doing with and for the kids. Unschooling isn't
about sitting back and letting the kids find their own way.
Unschooling is fully engaging with them, being their support system
*and* the one who keeps life swirling in interesting ways. Sandra Dodd
has a great page on strewing:

http://sandradodd.com/strewing

> encouraging them to find something else to do, whether it's read a
> book, go on a bike ride, start a craft project, load the dishwasher,
> whatever.

If my husband were watching a football game it would be mighty rude of
me to "encourage" him to read a book or load the dishwasher!

If an action might damage a relationship with an adult. then it's not
a good idea to do to a child.

> f it gets to the point where they're spending most or all of the day
> in front of the tube, I'd have no problem rationing their viewing
> time.

Again, very conventional view of kids.

Where's the parents? How are mom and dad engaging the kids? What
activities outside the house are they creating.

If the parents are keeping the kids lives swirling with activity and
other engaging opportunities that the *kids* enjoy, and still the kids
are drawn to the TV then there's something the kids are really getting
into. And the parents can connect with the kids by being with them,
watching, finding other things that connect to what they're watching.

> I look at TV as a very addictive drug (and scientific studies tend
> to bear this out, in terms of TV's physical effect on the brain)

Really really old information that never had sound science behind it.

There's much better information here:
http://sandradodd.com/tv

And some discussion of TV and other addictions:
http://tinyurl.com/yhuwxcx

As well as Arguments against arguments against TV
http://tinyurl.com/2kprgh

> Bear in mind that I come from a point of view of having little use
> for TV in the first place.

Unschooling is about supporting kids' interests. So even if a parent
doesn't like tractor pulls, ATVs, Pokemon, World of Warcraft, horror
movies, frilly pink princesses, snakes, Chinese food, or Simpsons and
one or more of those are things her kids love, the parents are missing
huge opportunities to engage with who the kids are and enter into
their worlds. Unschooling will flow smoothly when parents treat all
their kids' interests with respect, not just the ones the parents
agree are worthy.

> It's just not worth the $90-a-month cable bill.

For you. If there are programs on TV your kids love, then it's no
different than your wife judging which of your hobbies she'll sneer at
when you spend money or time on.

Though my husband doesn't write or draw he's always been supportive of
me taking classes and and spending all of November writing a novel for
National Novel Writing Month. His support for something he doesn't
value for himself feels really great. And, in turn, that makes it even
easier to support his interest in competing in triathlons.

Supporting someone means supporting who they are and all their
interests, not just the parts you think are worth your while.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

6 Apr 2011, at 9:14pm

<<<<<Old habits die hard and I've been trained to prepare my kids for working
a job that won't embarrass their grandparents. Okay, that's a cynical
answer, but in addition to that, I know enough people who do little more
than work a non skilled job to pay the bills and watch tv, waiting for
"something" to happen. Granted, their childhoods were spent in school
awaiting the next assignment (as I think someone had mentioned to me in
an earlier thread), but the image is a strong one and hard to shake
without examples to the contrary.>>>>>

Do most people you know live like that??? I know very few like that and would
have to thin k hard
to come up with names, probably because
I surround myself with interesting people. I have had a very interesting life.
I have done many different things in life and I live in another country
different than the one I was raised in.

<<<<<> He is living in real life everyday. He knows about so many things kids
in school

> have no idea and I am not
> talking about schoolish stuff but real life stuff.

I appreciate this perspective. I'd love to hear more.>>>>>>

While most 8 year olds are spending 8 hours a day in a school with kids their
own age, my son is
out in the real word everyday. He is with us while we are farming, paying bills,
shopping, talking to people of
all ages and races. They do not do pretend life like in school. They are living
it. My son plays online with people
all ages, he is a fully participant on life. I see many kids that know nothing
else than school life and weekends where they can get away from school.
Life is a joy for us. It is hard to explain if you have never known anything
different.

<<<<<Although I do recognize this (my son has an autistic spectrum disorder -
things didn't work out the way we planned), >>>>>

Ouch! I feel for him if you feel disappointed he was not what you wanted him to
be. Maybe that is not what you meant.

<<<I also suspect that to play
the odds, preparing to be self-sufficient as an adult is not a useless
goal. I do recognize unschooling can accomplish that, I'm curious as to
how something like unlimited tv might not hinder that because I just
assume unlimited tv would create a habit of desiring to being
entertained, watching others live life in creative and imaginative ways.>>>>>>>

I have met unschooled teens at a Conference I went. I have many friends that
have unschooled
teens or unschoolers that are now adults. I have unschooled teens who are my
friends and I
keep in touch on Facebook.
NONE of them are people who sit in front of the TV only desiring to be
entertained.

All of them are super interesting people who do amazing things and are super
creative.

Brenna McBroom is in India on a trip with two other unschoolers, she is a super
talented
potter and her pieces are amazing.
Kirby Dodd love for video games landed him a job with Blizzard who is the
creator of the
game World of Warcraft, he has been working there for years now.
Cameron Lovejoy has done so many things from internship at organic farms to
organizing a wonderful conference
geared towards olders unschoolers and young adults. He also travels
extensively./
The Sorooshiam girls are all in College and doing what they love and not just
getting a degree so they could have a job.
There are many more I could name like the Traaseth kids ( I love those kids!)
and it would take a while.
IF unchooled kids became what you fear your son may become if he has unlimited
TV but it is quite the contrary.
They are smart, engaged, interesting, creative and driven people.

Alex Polikowsky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

odiniella

6 Apr 2011, at 9:54pm

--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<polykowholsteins@...> wrote:

> Do most people you know live like that??? I know very few like that

and would

> have to thin k hard
> to come up with names, probably because
> I surround myself with interesting people. I have had a very

interesting life.

> I have done many different things in life and I live in another

country

> different than the one I was raised in.

It's how I grew up (my parents still watch tv from after dinner until
bedtime, like clockwork). Perhaps it's foolish of me to assume most
people spend their days "at work" and come home to sitcoms, but that's
what I'm used to. I'm not surrounded by interesting people but that's
only because I'm not surrounded by many people. Until recently, I've
been rather housebound. Most people I know I've met in the last year or
two, almost all homeschool from a curriculum and have schedules to
maintain.

****

> While most 8 year olds are spending 8 hours a day in a school with

kids their

> own age, my son is
> out in the real word everyday. He is with us while we are farming,

paying bills,

> shopping, talking to people of
> all ages and races. They do not do pretend life like in school. They

are living

> it. My son plays online with people
> all ages, he is a fully participant on life. I see many kids that know

nothing

> else than school life and weekends where they can get away from

school.

> Life is a joy for us. It is hard to explain if you have never known

anything

> different.

We're still new to this. Our family dynamic is different now than it
used to be. There are all kinds of things to do and see and be a part
of, of which I am completely ignorant, I'm sure.
****>

> <<<<<Although I do recognize this (my son has an autistic spectrum

disorder -

> things didn't work out the way we planned), >>>>>
>
> Ouch! I feel for him if you feel disappointed he was not what you

wanted him to

> be. Maybe that is not what you meant.

Not what I meant. ;)
There's not one thing about any of my family that disappoints me or
fails to measure up to some expectation. I only meant that I recognize
that planning for the future may very well be modified unexpectedly.

****

> I have met unschooled teens at a Conference I went. I have many

friends that

> have unschooled
> teens or unschoolers that are now adults. I have unschooled teens who

are my

> friends and I
> keep in touch on Facebook.
> NONE of them are people who sit in front of the TV only desiring to

> entertained.
>
> All of them are super interesting people who do amazing things and are

super

> creative.
>
> Brenna McBroom is in India on a trip with two other unschoolers, she

is a super

> talented
> potter and her pieces are amazing.
> Kirby Dodd love for video games landed him a job with Blizzard who is

the

> creator of the
> game World of Warcraft, he has been working there for years now.
> Cameron Lovejoy has done so many things from internship at organic

farms to

> organizing a wonderful conference
> geared towards olders unschoolers and young adults. He also travels
> extensively./
> The Sorooshiam girls are all in College and doing what they love and

not just

> getting a degree so they could have a job.
> There are many more I could name like the Traaseth kids ( I love those

kids!)

> and it would take a while.
> IF unchooled kids became what you fear your son may become if he has

unlimited

> TV but it is quite the contrary.
> They are smart, engaged, interesting, creative and driven people.
>
>
>
>
> Alex Polikowsky

"doing what they love and not just getting a degree so they could have a
job." I was raised to get a degree to have a job. I was raised to
learn to type in case I couldn't find a job I liked, I could still be a
secretary. Not fun, but practical and that's what puts bread on the
table, dontchaknow. This is how I was raised. This is what I'm
learning is not universal. Thank you for sharing with me an
alternative. I would far prefer my children to be smart, engaged,
interesting, creative and driven. I'm just now finding out that it can
put bread on the table as well, but I do worry that I would be setting
up my kids for failure by not driving them to Get A Degree To Get A Job.
Does that make sense? I'm not trying to argue with you, just explain
where I'm coming from in hopes of explaining why it takes so long for
this to sink in. But I have to admit, it makes so much more sense and
I'm seeing it work in my kids in even such a short time since I've
stopped asking them to do schoolwork. I can't help but to worry - I'm
taking the advice of strangers here when it comes to my kids and I want
to make sure I'm not chasing rainbows, kwim?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

odiniella

6 Apr 2011, at 10:47pm

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:

>

> If a parent was concerned that their child was only choosing TV, I'd
> ask the parent to not look at what the child was (or wasn't) doing but
> what she or he was doing with and for the kids. Unschooling isn't
> about sitting back and letting the kids find their own way.
> Unschooling is fully engaging with them, being their support system
> *and* the one who keeps life swirling in interesting ways. ......>

Where's the parents? How are mom and dad engaging the kids? What

> activities outside the house are they creating.
>
> If the parents are keeping the kids lives swirling with activity and
> other engaging opportunities that the *kids* enjoy, and still the kids
> are drawn to the TV then there's something the kids are really getting
> into. And the parents can connect with the kids by being with them,
> watching, finding other things that connect to what they're

watching.....> Unschooling is about supporting kids' interests. So even
if a parent

> doesn't like tractor pulls, ATVs, Pokemon, World of Warcraft, horror
> movies, frilly pink princesses, snakes, Chinese food, or Simpsons and
> one or more of those are things her kids love, the parents are missing
> huge opportunities to engage with who the kids are and enter into
> their worlds. Unschooling will flow smoothly when parents treat all
> their kids' interests with respect, not just the ones the parents
> agree are worthy.
>

Thank you so much for sharing this!
And thank you for the links - fascinating!
Helen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

otherstar

7 Apr 2011, at 12:05am

From: odiniella
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 8:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: question about tv

>>>It's how I grew up (my parents still watch tv from after dinner until bedtime, like clockwork). Perhaps it's foolish of me to assume most people spend their days "at work" and come home to sitcoms, but that's what I'm used to.<<<

There is a lot of judgment in this statement. To me, there is nothing wrong with somebody working all day and coming home and relaxing in the evenings. Some people come home from work and read. Some people get on the computer. Some people garden. Why is there a problem with doing something that you enjoy from after dinner until bedtime? Your parents were obviously able to work and pay the bills. If you are used to living a life doing what other people tell you to do, then when you get a bit of free time, it is only natural to want to relax and focus your energy on something that you enjoy.

>>>I'm not surrounded by interesting people but that's only because I'm not surrounded by many people. Until recently, I've been rather housebound. Most people I know I've met in the last year or two, almost all homeschool from a curriculum and have schedules to maintain.<<<<

Interesting is purely subjective. Just because you don't think those people are interesting doesn't mean that they aren't interesting. My husband and I recently had a discussion about the small things. A lot of small things in life can be interesting if you take the time to notice them and see them from a different perspective. A person or thing does not have to big/loud/fancy/spectacular to be considered interesting. I have learned some of the coolest stuff from people that could be considered "boring".

>>>>We're still new to this. Our family dynamic is different now than it used to be. There are all kinds of things to do and see and be a part of, of which I am completely ignorant, I'm sure.<<<<

Instead of sitting around claiming ignorance, start doing some research. Check and see if there is a Chamber of Commerce or visitor's bureau in your area. They are great sources of things to do locally. I get kind of burned out on the notion that everything has to be big in order for it to count. A family trip to the grocery store can be fun. A family drive through the countryside is always nice. There are tons of things that could be considered boring or mundane that are full of cool and interesting stuff. If your kids like lots of activities, then find them lots of activities. If your kids would rather hang out at home and pursue their interests that way, then give them the time and space to hang out at home.

>>>I was raised to get a degree to have a job. I was raised to learn to type in case I couldn't find a job I liked, I could still be a secretary. Not fun, but practical and that's what puts bread on the table, dontchaknow. This is how I was raised......I can't help but to worry - I'm taking the advice of strangers here when it comes to my kids and I want to make sure I'm not chasing rainbows, kwim?<<<<

Think about how happy all of those people that have jobs just to put bread on the table are. Some of them are happy but there are a lot of them that aren't. We have a friend that is wheel chair bound. We had him over this past weekend and one of the things that came up was that if you love what you do, you will never work a day in your life. Doing what you love will put bread on the table just as quick as doing what you hate will. The only difference is that you might accidently be happy if you get to do what you love. Practical is good but I would like to give my kids the time to enjoy life and not worry about being practical. I want them to enjoy being a kid.

Connie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

7 Apr 2011, at 6:45am

On Apr 6, 2011, at 12:37 PM, odiniella wrote:

> Not all day, but they do sit and watch more than I'd like.

What if you made the time to knit each day because you enjoyed it and
your husband said to someone about you "She does sit and knit more
than I'd like."

First it means he's watching you and judging your choices based on his
own scale of worth. Second it means he has expectations of who he'd
like you to be and you're not living up to them.

Doesn't that just feel like a not healthy relationship?

> They've both
> been to traditional brick and mortar school for years (through 5th
> grade
> and 3rd grade) and only recently have I stopped schooling at home
> (they
> are now 13 and 11).

The preteen years are a very typical time for kids to be drawn to TV
and video games in a big way. It's a transition period between kid
interests and more adult interests. What they're drawn to often has
mixes of both younger kid humor and more adult themes but that mix
tends to not appeal outside those few years.

> I figure this tv habit is part of my kids
> deschooling.

Is eating ice cream after a tonsilectomy while the throat still hurts
a habit or is it filling a need?

If they're recovering from school and school at home, then it's
recovery not a habit. It will help loads to look at your children
rather than some image of who you expect your children to be.

> I'm offering other things to do, through co-op classes
> and field trips. We're going to the library often now. They kids are
> finding instructions to make things on youtube so I try to accommodate
> their needs (getting a few things at Ace or keeping the table free for
> Nerf Gun modification).

That all sounds great. :-) Unschooling is a mix of figuring out for
your own particular kids when to mix it up and when to step back and
let them explore.

Someone once suggested that instead of trying to take something away
from their lives, add to their lives. If their lives are full of
interesting opportunities and they're still choosing TV shows then
those shows are what they like most at the moment. Same would be true
if they were reading or digging in the dirt or focusing on drawing
every Pokemon ever created.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

7 Apr 2011, at 6:57am

On Apr 6, 2011, at 2:40 PM, odiniella wrote:

> In reality, I want
> them to have the same general value system, but not necessarily
> defined
> by the same things. "Creativity" may look different to my son because
> he thinks differently than I do, but as long as he does pick up on the
> values of respect and consideration and compassion, and things like
> this, *how* he goes about it can be up to him, free from my own
> influence (well, as much as possible).

It's pretty typical to want our kids to adopt our values. We've chosen
the values because we think they're the best so why wouldn't we think
others would think so too! :-)

But the best way to foster an appreciation for those values is
indirectly. Rather than getting your kids to follow your values, you
use your values in your interactions with them. Use them to solve
their problems. Use them to solve your problems. (Well, you would
anyway. That's what values are for! ;-) *Live* your values.

If you would like your kids to be considerate and compassionate and
respectful and creative *be* considerate and compassionate and
respectful and creative in your interactions with them. Be considerate
and compassionate and so forth towards your husband. Engage them in
being spontaneously thoughtful of others (like making something
special that one of the kids or your husband loves.)

Use those values to shape the solutions you help them find to their
problems. Find solutions that adhere to your values. Use them as tools
to *help* them. Use them as ways to connect to your kids and your
husband. If their experiences with your values are positive and make
them feel good it's far more likely they'll be drawn to them. If your
values are used as a barrier between them and what they want -- for
instance if you value creativity and use that as an excuse to get them
away from the "uncreative" TV -- they're far more likely to turn away
from the values.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

7 Apr 2011, at 7:16am

On Apr 6, 2011, at 2:40 PM, odiniella wrote:

> as long as I attribute value to the
> choices my kids make, they'll be inspired to respond to MY thoughts
> about something rather than develop their own.

Sometimes. Perhaps. Depends on their personality.

People pleasers will tend to take on the values of those they want to
please.

People with a strong sense of will will feel like you're in
competition with each other over who is right.

If your judgement is wrong for them even if it's right for you,
they'll think less and less of your judgement each time you tell them
what's the right judgement and you turn out wrong for them.

Or try to override their opportunities to explore and come to a
decision on their own. Sometimes, when people feel pressured to make
the "right" choice, they'll choose the opposite because they want the
freedom to do so. (Which is pretty much the story of teen rebellion.)

What's important for relationships is when someone is happy that we
have found something that makes us happy :-) Whether that be watching
TV or gardening or playing video games or drawing things blowing up.

Judging is good for ourselves. We *should* be judging what we feel is
right *for us*. But if someone is happy and not hurting others, it
won't do the relationship a bit of good to place a value judgement on
what they're doing that's making them happy.

Picture sitting down to read and every time your husband sees you he
makes some remark about how your could be doing something so much
"better" or tries to get you to do something else. It might not make
you like reading less, but it would certainly make you like reading
around him less, and probably whittle away at your relationship with
him.

And the thing is, he would be doing it for what he believes are very
good reasons. He would be wanting the best for you and trying to steer
you in the right direction. But it wouldn't feel right or good, would
it? No matter how strong his belief is that his values are the right
values for everyone.

Then picture sitting down to read and your husband brings you a cup of
coffee, a blanket for your legs and kisses you on the top of your head.

Which is more likely to build a better relationship? :-)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

7 Apr 2011, at 7:23am

Although I do recognize this (my son has an autistic spectrum disorder -
things didn't work out the way we planned), I also suspect that to play
the odds, preparing to be self-sufficient as an adult is not a useless
goal. I do recognize unschooling can accomplish that, I'm curious as to
how something like unlimited tv might not hinder that because I just
assume unlimited tv would create a habit of desiring to being
entertained, watching others live life in creative and imaginative ways.
--------------------

Television is a wonderful thing. Try and imagine any other resource that brings
the level of entertainment and engagement and information with seemingly so
little effort. There is only the internet that I can think of. And that, too, is
a wonderful thing. However it has been labelled and maligned by lots of folks in
lots of ways. And, so, to err on the side of caution parents create boundaries
and rules to try and limit access to this amazing and fabulous thing. So what's
wrong with that? Well, I can tell you that one of the things that you fail to do
if you limit access to something that your children find enjoyable, interesting,
stimulating, engaging is that you don't trust them to recognise value. And from
an unschooling perspective, that's a pretty big failure.

This morning I thought about addiction. I don't really buy into the idea of
addiction. I know there are substances that have addictive properties, the
longer you ingest them the more you need to maintain the same response,
substances that cross the blood-brain barrier and change (if only temporarily)
the chemistry of the brain. But, I am a Bruce Alexander
(http://www.walrusmagazine.com/articles/2007.12-health-rat-trap/) believer. I
believe that environment is the key factor in addiction and not the substance.
We have lots of things in our home that others might find addictive, but none of
us do. We have recently unsubscribed from satellite television because nobody
was watching it and we chose, instead, to put the money into buying series or
movies that we wanted to watch on dvd. And I am not using the word "we"
incorrectly. There were discussions and it was unanimous, not with me leading. I
am still fully willing to resubscribe to satellite television; it wasn't ever
writ in stone.

So rather than be afraid of sugar or video games or processed foods or
television or heroin or cigarettes or alcohol I have worked to make Simon's and
Linnaea's and David's and my life good and engaging and interesting and filled
with the things that each of us want and like to do. I haven't let fear lead my
hand or my mind on my parenting and instead have looked, with trust, at the
things that interest Simon and Linnaea and David for the beauty that I know must
be there if they found it. And each time I have found something interesting.

Schuyler

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Joyce Fetteroll

7 Apr 2011, at 7:52am

On Apr 6, 2011, at 4:41 PM, odiniella wrote:

> I know this can be accomplished in a variety of ways, as evidenced by
> those who come from traditional family structures and maintain close
> ties for a lifetime.

How do they do that, though? If it's the traditional family
structures, then it would work for every family. Every family would be
close.

But they aren't, are they?

So what is it that creates close families?

It isn't a crap shoot! Most people think it is. Most people think you
do your best and the dice roll.

But the key is building strong relationships. And the way to build
strong relationships is by respecting people for who they are not some
image of who you believe they could be.

> From the outside, the idea of watching tv all day
> doesn't correspond to the skills needed for independence in adulthood,

But why would a child spend his entire childhood doing nothing more
than watching TV? You're treating that as a real possibility but where
are the *unschooled* kids who are doing that? There are periods of
time where kids will watch more and play more video games than at
other periods. It can look like the beginning of a downward slide into
couch potatohood, but if any of the long time radical unschoolers have
18 yo kids who are parked in front of the TV with big supply of Coke
and Cheetos, then we'd all better shut up and stop passing on
information that isn't working!

> I'm
> finding the formal education plan has flaws inherent in the system but
> ultimately I want my kids to feel their lives are not lacking in
> satisfaction for them, and that means giving them the skills they'll
> need to do what interests them as adults.

Can you make a future life satisfactory by making the present life
unsatisfactory, eg, filled with learning the skills they'll supposedly
need?

I think you're stuck in seeing kids as not curious or self driven.
Maybe it's hard to see while they're deschooling.

It would also be hard to see someone walking one day if they're
sitting on the couch with a broken leg if you're projecting what they
need to heal into the rest of their lives.

It will help to read about unschooling kids. Not to make your kids
look like couch potatoes! But to see that respecting their choices,
creating a rich environment for them to explore, supporting their
interests, does create kids who are eager to tackle life :-)

> How does unschooling (would
> this be considered radical unschooling?) prepare them to this end?

My daughter spent loads of time in the preteen years watching TV and
playing video games in with other activities. Pokemon pretty much
shaped her life. :-) She played Pokemon. She collected Pokemon. She
drew and sculpted Pokemon. She created databases of Pokemon. She
created her own Pokemon like creatures and drew comics and other
stories about them. Writing that all out makes it sound very active
and creative but it looked like playing. It didn't look like it was
leading to anything useful for her adult self.

At 14 she decided to take the college statistics class her dad
teaches. And she was at the top of the class against kids who had been
through 12+ years of formal math. She did it because it was fun for
her. No pressure. No requirements. And all the prep for the class she
had was living life. Most of it picked up through video games. And
using math in real ways to answer questions she had (about money,
dinosaurs, Pokemon :-) Carl would occasionally bring up an interesting
math topic like Fibonacci numbers but that was minutes of what others
would recognize as math over her 14 years compared to the hours and
hours of formal math shoved at the other kids. (Obviously there is
genetics at work since both Carl and I are mathy people but her the
amount of formal math she'd done before the class was minimal.)

Joyce

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Joyce Fetteroll

7 Apr 2011, at 8:16am

On Apr 6, 2011, at 8:06 PM, odiniella wrote:

> I do recognize unschooling can accomplish that, I'm curious as to
> how something like unlimited tv might not hinder that because I just
> assume unlimited tv would create a habit of desiring to being
> entertained, watching others live life in creative and imaginative
> ways.

It's a dim view of human nature! If humanity's default were "entertain
me" then how did all the things that surround you ever get created?
And a huge number of them were created after TV was common place in
homes in the late 1950s, early 1960s.

We *do* want to be happy :-) And part of becoming happy is relieving
stress. A lot of evening TV watching is stress relief from work and
school. Without the stress of school and with a job someone really
likes, the need for stress relief goes way down.

A big thing that encourages people to bear stress rather than find
ways to take charge and change what they're doing is school. Kids
spend their childhoods learning to sit down, shut up, take in what
adult experts think is good for you even if you don't like it, and
there's nothing you can do about it so put up with it.

Doesn't *that* sound like training for "get a job you don't like,
relieve the stress at night, and repeat until retirement"?

Here's a great talk -- with engaging visuals :-) by Daniel Pink. It's
about what drives us. It's really great for unschooling (without being
about unschooling.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

Joyce

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odiniella

7 Apr 2011, at 10:49am

--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>
wrote:

>
>
> So rather than be afraid of sugar or video games or processed foods or
> television or heroin or cigarettes or alcohol I have worked to make

Simon's and

> Linnaea's and David's and my life good and engaging and interesting

and filled

> with the things that each of us want and like to do. I haven't let

fear lead my

> hand or my mind on my parenting and instead have looked, with trust,

at the

> things that interest Simon and Linnaea and David for the beauty that I

know must

> be there if they found it. And each time I have found something

interesting.

>
>
> Schuyler

Thank you for this (all of it, but especially the bold). I can see this
is where I need to focus my attention - learning how to do this by
learning how to think outside my own box.
Helen

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odiniella

7 Apr 2011, at 1:02pm

--- In [email protected], "otherstar" <otherstar@...>
wrote:

> Think about how happy all of those people that have jobs just to put

bread on the table are. Some of them are happy but there are a lot of
them that aren't.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, sorry.
****We have a friend that is wheel chair bound. We had him over this
past weekend and one of the things that came up was that if you love
what you do, you will never work a day in your life. Doing what you love
will put bread on the table just as quick as doing what you hate will.
The only difference is that you might accidently be happy if you get to
do what you love.
In my experience that's not necessarily true. In my experience doing
what you love offers immediate gratification, often at the expense of
long term satisfaction. If I could make a living smoking pot and
playing armchair psychoanalyst for various people I encounter online I
wouldn't lack for anything. Except maybe money to pay the bills and buy
food. In other words, it's a nice idea, just do what you like and it
will all come together for the good, but I don't think it's quite that
simple. At least, I've yet to find it work out that conveniently.
Instead, I'm trying to analyze what it is about unschooling that works
because, again in my experience, the effects are more rewarding than
conventional school. However, I don't have the experience with
unschooling as I do with conventional education, and I simply cannot
abide by well-meaning advice that suggests I just trust someone because
they say so. I don't vote that way, I don't explore spiritual beliefs
that way, I don't raise my children that way. I'm curious as to the
"mechanics" if you will, of unschooling. I want to know *how* it "all
works out in the end." I want to know what box am I comfortably sitting
in that I don't know about and how can I learn to recognize it so my
children need not be squished in here with me if they don't choose.
Gathering more information is my goal, not judging anyone.
In asking about tv, I'm learning so much more than tv limitations or
lack of limitations. This has been a rewarding exploration for me in
just this one question. My mind is grabbing all kinds of examples of
all kinds of events and I'm learning to reinterpret things in a new (and
hopefully) more accurate way. For example, I'm learning to watch my
kids' tv habits in hopes of finding out what roll it serves for them.
I'm finding they watch it during the day but by the evening, they've got
too many ideas to explore to be cooped up on the couch. I'm spending my
time thinking about what they watch and what it might offer them, and
I'm looking around my area to see if there are any other resources that
might be inspiring and satisfying for them in the same general area of
interest. I'm learning what my kids' needs are beyond educational
preparation for college and I'm learning that I don't need to give up
the idea of college for the enjoyment of having a nice relationship with
them now. I'm learning that exploration of ideas leads to seeking out
mentors in those fields and this is a natural developmental evolution
for children/young adults. I'm learning *why* I can let go of the idea
that professional teachers are better equipped to tend to the needs of
my children seeking mentors, not because someone tells me so, but
because it makes sense when I look at the details. I recognize my
questions are going to be frustrating to those who have btdt more times
than they care to recall, but at the same time, it's helpful *for me*
and I assume for others reading, as well. I've not btdt. I appreciate
all the insight and concrete idea's that have been shared with me.

****Practical is good but I would like to give my kids the time to enjoy
life and not worry about being practical. I want them to enjoy being a
kid.

>
> Connie

So do I. However, I will not set them up for failure if I can help it,
and I think not having practical skills would be setting them up for
failure. I'm exploring how unschooling works so I can discover for
myself if indeed they will be denied those practical skills, and I'm
finding evidence to suggest those skills can be met in other ways. I'm
also finding these skills, when naturally developed, are stronger than
when taught as from a lesson. I find that very intriguing and want to
learn more. I hope that makes sense.
Helen

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