Flip a penny Tuesday
Ren Allen
'This isn't the K-12 community and we don't have students."
Nope, but it's still fun!:)
Ren, who loves Ben Franklin, a true autodidact and forward thinker
Nope, but it's still fun!:)
Ren, who loves Ben Franklin, a true autodidact and forward thinker
Ren Allen
"And as K-12 is only a level indicator like age is and the Earth is a
community... "
Yeah, but K-12 is a false level, based on a very bizarre system.
I like the etymology you brought in about the origins of
"student"...seems very unlike anything the schools do.
For the record, I don't have students in my home, I have children. And
nobody is at any grade level, but I still like activities that call
things grade level sometimes....poor souls don't know any other way to
label children. sigh.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
community... "
Yeah, but K-12 is a false level, based on a very bizarre system.
I like the etymology you brought in about the origins of
"student"...seems very unlike anything the schools do.
For the record, I don't have students in my home, I have children. And
nobody is at any grade level, but I still like activities that call
things grade level sometimes....poor souls don't know any other way to
label children. sigh.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Deb Lewis
***Nope, but it's still fun! :)***
I'm not objecting to people sending cool things to the list.
But lot's of new members on this list don't fully understand unschooling
and offering that link up for K-12 students couldn't further anyone's
understanding.
The word "student" is not a word many of us would use about our kids.
Not many of our unschoolers lives are divided into subjects.
I think it matters that the web page is school oriented in every way, has
an official worksheet and teacher lesson plans.
Deb Lewis
I'm not objecting to people sending cool things to the list.
But lot's of new members on this list don't fully understand unschooling
and offering that link up for K-12 students couldn't further anyone's
understanding.
The word "student" is not a word many of us would use about our kids.
Not many of our unschoolers lives are divided into subjects.
I think it matters that the web page is school oriented in every way, has
an official worksheet and teacher lesson plans.
Deb Lewis
Breezy Stevens/ Lady Lasairíona of Crea
Deb Lewis wrote:
gives you an idea of at what ages kids might enjoy this. And just
because it's an organized experiment doesn't mean it's counter to
unschooling.
certainly one valid way of describing them. I admit that I'm just as
much of a student as my kids...and I hope that doesn't change, no matter
how old any of us gets.
for 4 years now, and I disagree. Not only is it succinct and clear, but
some kids just plain like doing these kinds of things. I don't
necessarily encourage my kids to do things because they're considered
'educational', but I don't discourage them either. I think excluding
certain things because they're in a format that a school would use is
against the spirit of unschooling. If I find something cool, and I think
this is very cool, I ask my kids if they'd like to do it. They know
that, just like everyone else, they're free to say no if they're not
interested. I don't shy away from making suggestions, because I'm part
of the family too, and my ideas and suggestions are just as valid as
theirs. There are lots of things they'd never even know about if I
hadn't told them. And if they weren't told and found out later, they
might be upset. ...
Just my $.02...
Blessings,
Breezy
> ***Nope, but it's still fun! :)***Yup, that is the point, isn't it?
>I disagree. I think it can be thought of as linguistic shorthand- it
> I'm not objecting to people sending cool things to the list.
> But lot's of new members on this list don't fully understand unschooling
> and offering that link up for K-12 students couldn't further anyone's
> understanding.
gives you an idea of at what ages kids might enjoy this. And just
because it's an organized experiment doesn't mean it's counter to
unschooling.
>Even if we don't call them students, or learners, or whatever, that is
>
> The word "student" is not a word many of us would use about our kids.
> Not many of our unschoolers lives are divided into subjects.
certainly one valid way of describing them. I admit that I'm just as
much of a student as my kids...and I hope that doesn't change, no matter
how old any of us gets.
>I've been a strict unschooler (if that isn't a contradiction in terms!)
>
> I think it matters that the web page is school oriented in every way, has
> an official worksheet and teacher lesson plans.
for 4 years now, and I disagree. Not only is it succinct and clear, but
some kids just plain like doing these kinds of things. I don't
necessarily encourage my kids to do things because they're considered
'educational', but I don't discourage them either. I think excluding
certain things because they're in a format that a school would use is
against the spirit of unschooling. If I find something cool, and I think
this is very cool, I ask my kids if they'd like to do it. They know
that, just like everyone else, they're free to say no if they're not
interested. I don't shy away from making suggestions, because I'm part
of the family too, and my ideas and suggestions are just as valid as
theirs. There are lots of things they'd never even know about if I
hadn't told them. And if they weren't told and found out later, they
might be upset. ...
Just my $.02...
Blessings,
Breezy
>
>
> Deb Lewis
>
Ren Allen
"I disagree. I think it can be thought of as linguistic shorthand- it
gives you an idea of at what ages kids might enjoy this. And just
because it's an organized experiment doesn't mean it's counter to
unschooling."
It's up to each of us how we use any resource out there of course.
It IS confusing to newer unschoolers I'm sure, how some of us might
use "schooly" looking resources when our children request them, BUT
the activity that was brought here was simply that, an activity.
Not a promotion of the site, not an encouragement for parents to
devote any time to a subject, just a fun "flip a penny ten times" for
Benjamin Franklin's Birthday. The activity itself is harmless and fun,
unless pushed or coerced.
There are quite a few newer members to the list, so maybe we can have
a conversation about how our children are not students, how we don't
see them as a certain grade and how to get more schoolish thoughts out
of our lives and heads! That's always a good thing.
But flipping a penny won't get in the way of unschooling, unless a
parent requires it, or tries to turn it into a math lesson or sees it
as more valuable than something their child is really interested in,
but we're here to encourage less of that and more of joyful exploration!:)
Ren
learinginfreedom.com
gives you an idea of at what ages kids might enjoy this. And just
because it's an organized experiment doesn't mean it's counter to
unschooling."
It's up to each of us how we use any resource out there of course.
It IS confusing to newer unschoolers I'm sure, how some of us might
use "schooly" looking resources when our children request them, BUT
the activity that was brought here was simply that, an activity.
Not a promotion of the site, not an encouragement for parents to
devote any time to a subject, just a fun "flip a penny ten times" for
Benjamin Franklin's Birthday. The activity itself is harmless and fun,
unless pushed or coerced.
There are quite a few newer members to the list, so maybe we can have
a conversation about how our children are not students, how we don't
see them as a certain grade and how to get more schoolish thoughts out
of our lives and heads! That's always a good thing.
But flipping a penny won't get in the way of unschooling, unless a
parent requires it, or tries to turn it into a math lesson or sees it
as more valuable than something their child is really interested in,
but we're here to encourage less of that and more of joyful exploration!:)
Ren
learinginfreedom.com
Deb Lewis
***Yup, that is the point, isn't it?***
The point of this list is unschooling. The point of the Franklin
Institute is education. I don't think the point of that experiment is
"fun."
***I think it can be thought of as linguistic shorthand- it
gives you an idea of at what ages kids might enjoy this. ***
If it's fun then anyone of any age will enjoy it, not *just* "students"
not *just* those in the "K-12" range.
I don't think we need linguistic shorthand to say "fun." "Fun" seems
pretty short. Does "spread the word in the K-12 community" sound like
shorthand for "fun?" Is it appropriate for an unschooling list?
***And just
because it's an organized experiment doesn't mean it's counter to
unschooling.***
Right, but I was talking about the responsibility we have to new
unschoolers on a list about unschooling. I think helping them move
beyond the world and language of school is essential to understanding
unschooling.
***I think excluding
certain things because they're in a format that a school would use is
against the spirit of unschooling. ***
It think avoiding schoolish things might be exactly what some new
unschoolers should do. Some people new to unschooling at first can't see
learning without teaching. There's a reason we talk so much about
deschooling.
It won't hurt us to think about this or talk about it on an unschooling
list, but a former school at home mom who "encourages" her still
deschooling child to sit down and fill out the official worksheet and
maybe read this or that little lesson and submit that fun data could be
damaging weeks or months of deschooling, thinking she's just offering
something fun. I'm urging care especially because this is a list for
new unschoolers.
Deb Lewis
The point of this list is unschooling. The point of the Franklin
Institute is education. I don't think the point of that experiment is
"fun."
***I think it can be thought of as linguistic shorthand- it
gives you an idea of at what ages kids might enjoy this. ***
If it's fun then anyone of any age will enjoy it, not *just* "students"
not *just* those in the "K-12" range.
I don't think we need linguistic shorthand to say "fun." "Fun" seems
pretty short. Does "spread the word in the K-12 community" sound like
shorthand for "fun?" Is it appropriate for an unschooling list?
***And just
because it's an organized experiment doesn't mean it's counter to
unschooling.***
Right, but I was talking about the responsibility we have to new
unschoolers on a list about unschooling. I think helping them move
beyond the world and language of school is essential to understanding
unschooling.
***I think excluding
certain things because they're in a format that a school would use is
against the spirit of unschooling. ***
It think avoiding schoolish things might be exactly what some new
unschoolers should do. Some people new to unschooling at first can't see
learning without teaching. There's a reason we talk so much about
deschooling.
It won't hurt us to think about this or talk about it on an unschooling
list, but a former school at home mom who "encourages" her still
deschooling child to sit down and fill out the official worksheet and
maybe read this or that little lesson and submit that fun data could be
damaging weeks or months of deschooling, thinking she's just offering
something fun. I'm urging care especially because this is a list for
new unschoolers.
Deb Lewis
seana saxon
On 1/16/06, Deb Lewis <ddzimlew@...> wrote:
really rather off-putting. I, and other new members, may be new to
unschooling but I have a hard time believing that we newbies all that locked
into anything if we're on this list.
I am new and don't want to start out offending anyone. I also don't want to
break the rule of "not discussing a posts language" as was indicated on the
welcome letter. But as the post was basically about language I don't know
if I am or not.
I, for one, was very appreciative to get the information on something that I
would not have known about otherwise.
I understand your concerns about deschooling and working at helping parents
to get away from something. I just wish that your original post had
addressed how to approach this in an unschooling fashon rather than what
appears to be confrontational and dismissive.
Thanks for your consideration and being here as a resource,
Seana Saxon
Wild Child Weaver of my two beautiful angels
Genevieve and Elissa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>But, your original comment was the first post I read on this list and it was
> Right, but I was talking about the responsibility we have to new
> unschoolers on a list about unschooling. I think helping them move beyond
> the world and language of school is essential to understanding
> unschooling.
really rather off-putting. I, and other new members, may be new to
unschooling but I have a hard time believing that we newbies all that locked
into anything if we're on this list.
I am new and don't want to start out offending anyone. I also don't want to
break the rule of "not discussing a posts language" as was indicated on the
welcome letter. But as the post was basically about language I don't know
if I am or not.
I, for one, was very appreciative to get the information on something that I
would not have known about otherwise.
I understand your concerns about deschooling and working at helping parents
to get away from something. I just wish that your original post had
addressed how to approach this in an unschooling fashon rather than what
appears to be confrontational and dismissive.
Thanks for your consideration and being here as a resource,
Seana Saxon
Wild Child Weaver of my two beautiful angels
Genevieve and Elissa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***your original comment was the first post I read on this list and it
was
really rather off-putting.***
Were you put off that unschoolers don't have students or that this is not
a K-12 community?
***I, and other new members, may be new to
unschooling but I have a hard time believing that we newbies all that
locked
into anything if we're on this list.***
It's not an insult. Unschooling is a radical concept and even some who
think of themselves as very radical can get stuck.
It comes up again and again when people say "But what about math?" or
"How will they learn to diagram sentences" or "They'd watch TV all day if
I let them." If everyone had it instantly figured out and clear in
their minds they wouldn't stop for information at a list called
unschooling basics.
***I also don't want to
break the rule of "not discussing a posts language" as was indicated on
the
welcome letter. ***
"...off-putting." Yes, qualifies as meta discussion and it happens even
when list members have the best intentions. It's unavoidable but since
it has the potential to derail a list it's discouraged.
***But as the post was basically about language I don't know
if I am or not.***
Posting about words that can be stumbling blocks to unschooling thinking
is not meta discussion.
***I just wish that your original post had
addressed how to approach this in an unschooling fashon rather than what
appears to be confrontational and dismissive.***
My post was exactly about my concern that new unschoolers might have
difficulty approaching a school oriented experiment in an unschooling
fashion. I don't think unschoolers need to devise unschoolish ways to do
what schools do. This is not good science. This activity's been
designed to keep kids busy while they're marched through a curriculum.
Some unschoolers might find it fun. If not a single new unschooling mom
or dad becomes confused that a list for new unschoolers provided a link
to a school site, complete with lesson plans, it was still a careless
post for this list, sent as it was to the "K-12 community."
Deb Lewis
was
really rather off-putting.***
Were you put off that unschoolers don't have students or that this is not
a K-12 community?
***I, and other new members, may be new to
unschooling but I have a hard time believing that we newbies all that
locked
into anything if we're on this list.***
It's not an insult. Unschooling is a radical concept and even some who
think of themselves as very radical can get stuck.
It comes up again and again when people say "But what about math?" or
"How will they learn to diagram sentences" or "They'd watch TV all day if
I let them." If everyone had it instantly figured out and clear in
their minds they wouldn't stop for information at a list called
unschooling basics.
***I also don't want to
break the rule of "not discussing a posts language" as was indicated on
the
welcome letter. ***
"...off-putting." Yes, qualifies as meta discussion and it happens even
when list members have the best intentions. It's unavoidable but since
it has the potential to derail a list it's discouraged.
***But as the post was basically about language I don't know
if I am or not.***
Posting about words that can be stumbling blocks to unschooling thinking
is not meta discussion.
***I just wish that your original post had
addressed how to approach this in an unschooling fashon rather than what
appears to be confrontational and dismissive.***
My post was exactly about my concern that new unschoolers might have
difficulty approaching a school oriented experiment in an unschooling
fashion. I don't think unschoolers need to devise unschoolish ways to do
what schools do. This is not good science. This activity's been
designed to keep kids busy while they're marched through a curriculum.
Some unschoolers might find it fun. If not a single new unschooling mom
or dad becomes confused that a list for new unschoolers provided a link
to a school site, complete with lesson plans, it was still a careless
post for this list, sent as it was to the "K-12 community."
Deb Lewis
seana saxon
On 1/17/06, Deb Lewis <ddzimlew@...> wrote:
that as politely as I could. I don't need to purpetuate this issue. I
thought I might be helpful in letting you know that the way you posted was
not something I, as a new member, appreciated. I do hope to lurk and gleen
from this group but for now I will stop contributing to this thread.
Seana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Neither, I was put off by the way the statement was made. I tried to say
> ***your original comment was the first post I read on this list and it
> was really rather off-putting.***
>
> Were you put off that unschoolers don't have students or that this is not
> a K-12 community?
>
that as politely as I could. I don't need to purpetuate this issue. I
thought I might be helpful in letting you know that the way you posted was
not something I, as a new member, appreciated. I do hope to lurk and gleen
from this group but for now I will stop contributing to this thread.
Seana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Su Penn
When I came out as a lesbian at 19, I felt like I could look back
through my life and see signs I hadn't recognized all the way back to
elementary school (of course, I "went back in" years later due to my
relationship with David...but that's another story).
When I started attending Quaker meeting and learning about Quaker
faith and practice, I realized that I had been strongly drawn to
Quakerly ideas for years, especially in some poems of Walt Whitman's
I had loved since high school.
It's like that with unschooling, too! One of the early warning signs
that I was destined to be an unschooler was that, even when I thought
I was going to "homeschool" ("We'll do classical education and my
children will know Latin! We'll do Charlotte Mason and my children
will be richly versed in wonderful literature!") it made no sense to
me when I heard people call their children "students" or talk about
what grade they were in. I was puzzled when people referred to "My
fifth grader..." I didn't see why anyone would want to think of their
kid as assigned to a school grade (or even do the mental work of
keeping track of what grade their kid would be in!). I thought school
grades were so arbitrary that they'd have little or no relation to
our lives as homeschoolers. I figured my kid might be doing "sixth
grade" math and "fourth grade" science at the same time, that based
on his interests and talents he'd move faster and farther in some
things than in others. But I figured even more that I wouldn't even
know what "grade level" he was at.
When I hear homeschooling parents say, "My child reads three grade
levels ahead," I'm just agog that they would keep track of a thing
like that (and the ones who tell me how many years and months ahead
their kids are just astonish me). I looked forward to homeschooling
as a way of being free from evaluating my kids according to the
standards of an institution I have very little respect for--if I
wanted them graded according to school standards, I always thought,
I'd send them to school. (I feel the same way when I homeschooling
mom talks about "grading papers." WTH?)
So clearly I had a natural bent toward unschooling! It just doesn't
seem useful to me to overlay "teacher" and "student" on our parent/
child relationships. How do teachers treat students? What assumptions
do they make about who knows what and how it's going to be
communicated? About where the authority lies? About who decides what
is important? About how much input students are "allowed"? About who
has to sit where? When I think about what it is like to be a student
(and what it is like to be a teacher, because I do that work now part-
time), that's not a relationship I want to have with my kids.
One of the reasons I didn't see myself grading or keeping track of
grade level was that I didn't want to make an idol of "academic
achievement." I won't go into details, but high academic achievement
didn't do me a lot of good--and over-valuing it did me even less
good, undermining my self-esteem. It also limited me to doing only
what the surprisingly low standards of the schools required. OK, I
will go into details (smile). My first semester in graduate school,
one of my professors called me in for a conference after I'd written
my first paper for her. "I gave you an A," she told me. "I had to
because it's A work. But I could tell it wasn't your best work. I
could tell you tossed it off. I want you to do better!" It made no
sense to me at all. Why would I work harder if papers I tossed off
were worth an A? "Tossed-off" work had gotten me As all through high
school and undergraduate work at a supposedly demanding university.
I didn't want my kids to be limited that way. I didn't want them to
be measured by someone else's standards and fall short--and I didn't
want them to fall short of their own potential because someone else's
standards were so low.
Coming to unschooling has been a flowering of that seed, that seed
being one of the things that led me to homeschool in the first place.
Su
p.s. My negative reaction to the "flip a penny" project wasn't the
K-12 thing so much as the claim that it would "show once and for all"
whether heads or tails come up more--do these people know anything
about probability <g>?
p.p.s. My kids are busily engaged on a project right now that I would
never have allowed pre-unschooling: they're pulling all the toys off
the shelves in the living room to see how big a pile they make
(they're 4 and almost-2). I did say to Eric, 4, "do you think you'll
help me pick it all up later?" Eric: "yes." Me: "Ok, we'll have a
pick-up party after lunch." I'll issue invitations and they'll come
if they want <g>.
through my life and see signs I hadn't recognized all the way back to
elementary school (of course, I "went back in" years later due to my
relationship with David...but that's another story).
When I started attending Quaker meeting and learning about Quaker
faith and practice, I realized that I had been strongly drawn to
Quakerly ideas for years, especially in some poems of Walt Whitman's
I had loved since high school.
It's like that with unschooling, too! One of the early warning signs
that I was destined to be an unschooler was that, even when I thought
I was going to "homeschool" ("We'll do classical education and my
children will know Latin! We'll do Charlotte Mason and my children
will be richly versed in wonderful literature!") it made no sense to
me when I heard people call their children "students" or talk about
what grade they were in. I was puzzled when people referred to "My
fifth grader..." I didn't see why anyone would want to think of their
kid as assigned to a school grade (or even do the mental work of
keeping track of what grade their kid would be in!). I thought school
grades were so arbitrary that they'd have little or no relation to
our lives as homeschoolers. I figured my kid might be doing "sixth
grade" math and "fourth grade" science at the same time, that based
on his interests and talents he'd move faster and farther in some
things than in others. But I figured even more that I wouldn't even
know what "grade level" he was at.
When I hear homeschooling parents say, "My child reads three grade
levels ahead," I'm just agog that they would keep track of a thing
like that (and the ones who tell me how many years and months ahead
their kids are just astonish me). I looked forward to homeschooling
as a way of being free from evaluating my kids according to the
standards of an institution I have very little respect for--if I
wanted them graded according to school standards, I always thought,
I'd send them to school. (I feel the same way when I homeschooling
mom talks about "grading papers." WTH?)
So clearly I had a natural bent toward unschooling! It just doesn't
seem useful to me to overlay "teacher" and "student" on our parent/
child relationships. How do teachers treat students? What assumptions
do they make about who knows what and how it's going to be
communicated? About where the authority lies? About who decides what
is important? About how much input students are "allowed"? About who
has to sit where? When I think about what it is like to be a student
(and what it is like to be a teacher, because I do that work now part-
time), that's not a relationship I want to have with my kids.
One of the reasons I didn't see myself grading or keeping track of
grade level was that I didn't want to make an idol of "academic
achievement." I won't go into details, but high academic achievement
didn't do me a lot of good--and over-valuing it did me even less
good, undermining my self-esteem. It also limited me to doing only
what the surprisingly low standards of the schools required. OK, I
will go into details (smile). My first semester in graduate school,
one of my professors called me in for a conference after I'd written
my first paper for her. "I gave you an A," she told me. "I had to
because it's A work. But I could tell it wasn't your best work. I
could tell you tossed it off. I want you to do better!" It made no
sense to me at all. Why would I work harder if papers I tossed off
were worth an A? "Tossed-off" work had gotten me As all through high
school and undergraduate work at a supposedly demanding university.
I didn't want my kids to be limited that way. I didn't want them to
be measured by someone else's standards and fall short--and I didn't
want them to fall short of their own potential because someone else's
standards were so low.
Coming to unschooling has been a flowering of that seed, that seed
being one of the things that led me to homeschool in the first place.
Su
p.s. My negative reaction to the "flip a penny" project wasn't the
K-12 thing so much as the claim that it would "show once and for all"
whether heads or tails come up more--do these people know anything
about probability <g>?
p.p.s. My kids are busily engaged on a project right now that I would
never have allowed pre-unschooling: they're pulling all the toys off
the shelves in the living room to see how big a pile they make
(they're 4 and almost-2). I did say to Eric, 4, "do you think you'll
help me pick it all up later?" Eric: "yes." Me: "Ok, we'll have a
pick-up party after lunch." I'll issue invitations and they'll come
if they want <g>.
On Jan 17, 2006, at 12:16 AM, Ren Allen wrote:
> There are quite a few newer members to the list, so maybe we can have
> a conversation about how our children are not students, how we don't
> see them as a certain grade and how to get more schoolish thoughts out
> of our lives and heads! That's always a good thing.
S Drag-teine
**It think avoiding schoolish things might be exactly what some new
unschoolers should do. Some people new to unschooling at first can't see
learning without teaching.**
Now wait! That is unfair. My son - who brought me four movies today and
announced that he wanted to watch them today. I don't think he is feeling
well and that is usually what he does when he is sick. I told me they were
having a coin flipping thing on the internet and he said he wanted to do it.
Now, let me explain that my husband flips a coin three times to make a
decision when he can't decide. My son is also to inherit a large coin
collection that has been in our family several generations and so coins have
been a big part of our lives. We count coins and money and money is probably
our biggest math curriculum if we even have one. Flipping coins in our house
is a big deal!
So anyway, I printed out the sheet and he flipped the coin and I recorded
for him and then we got online and enter the info and then he went to
watching his movies. Telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do is
offensive to me. Why should I avoid one thing or another if I know my son
will enjoy doing it?
Shannon
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Deb Lewis
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Flip a penny Tuesday
***Yup, that is the point, isn't it?***
The point of this list is unschooling. The point of the Franklin
Institute is education. I don't think the point of that experiment is
"fun."
***I think it can be thought of as linguistic shorthand- it
gives you an idea of at what ages kids might enjoy this. ***
If it's fun then anyone of any age will enjoy it, not *just* "students"
not *just* those in the "K-12" range.
I don't think we need linguistic shorthand to say "fun." "Fun" seems
pretty short. Does "spread the word in the K-12 community" sound like
shorthand for "fun?" Is it appropriate for an unschooling list?
***And just
because it's an organized experiment doesn't mean it's counter to
unschooling.***
Right, but I was talking about the responsibility we have to new
unschoolers on a list about unschooling. I think helping them move
beyond the world and language of school is essential to understanding
unschooling.
***I think excluding
certain things because they're in a format that a school would use is
against the spirit of unschooling. ***
It think avoiding schoolish things might be exactly what some new
unschoolers should do. Some people new to unschooling at first can't see
learning without teaching. There's a reason we talk so much about
deschooling.
It won't hurt us to think about this or talk about it on an unschooling
list, but a former school at home mom who "encourages" her still
deschooling child to sit down and fill out the official worksheet and
maybe read this or that little lesson and submit that fun data could be
damaging weeks or months of deschooling, thinking she's just offering
something fun. I'm urging care especially because this is a list for
new unschoolers.
Deb Lewis
Yahoo! Groups Links
unschoolers should do. Some people new to unschooling at first can't see
learning without teaching.**
Now wait! That is unfair. My son - who brought me four movies today and
announced that he wanted to watch them today. I don't think he is feeling
well and that is usually what he does when he is sick. I told me they were
having a coin flipping thing on the internet and he said he wanted to do it.
Now, let me explain that my husband flips a coin three times to make a
decision when he can't decide. My son is also to inherit a large coin
collection that has been in our family several generations and so coins have
been a big part of our lives. We count coins and money and money is probably
our biggest math curriculum if we even have one. Flipping coins in our house
is a big deal!
So anyway, I printed out the sheet and he flipped the coin and I recorded
for him and then we got online and enter the info and then he went to
watching his movies. Telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do is
offensive to me. Why should I avoid one thing or another if I know my son
will enjoy doing it?
Shannon
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Deb Lewis
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Flip a penny Tuesday
***Yup, that is the point, isn't it?***
The point of this list is unschooling. The point of the Franklin
Institute is education. I don't think the point of that experiment is
"fun."
***I think it can be thought of as linguistic shorthand- it
gives you an idea of at what ages kids might enjoy this. ***
If it's fun then anyone of any age will enjoy it, not *just* "students"
not *just* those in the "K-12" range.
I don't think we need linguistic shorthand to say "fun." "Fun" seems
pretty short. Does "spread the word in the K-12 community" sound like
shorthand for "fun?" Is it appropriate for an unschooling list?
***And just
because it's an organized experiment doesn't mean it's counter to
unschooling.***
Right, but I was talking about the responsibility we have to new
unschoolers on a list about unschooling. I think helping them move
beyond the world and language of school is essential to understanding
unschooling.
***I think excluding
certain things because they're in a format that a school would use is
against the spirit of unschooling. ***
It think avoiding schoolish things might be exactly what some new
unschoolers should do. Some people new to unschooling at first can't see
learning without teaching. There's a reason we talk so much about
deschooling.
It won't hurt us to think about this or talk about it on an unschooling
list, but a former school at home mom who "encourages" her still
deschooling child to sit down and fill out the official worksheet and
maybe read this or that little lesson and submit that fun data could be
damaging weeks or months of deschooling, thinking she's just offering
something fun. I'm urging care especially because this is a list for
new unschoolers.
Deb Lewis
Yahoo! Groups Links
S Drag-teine
I feel responsible for this whole mess and discussion which though has put
me off a little - I have learned from as well and hope that no one has
become too offended.
While no one may have meant to be huffy about the way things were said they
were interpreted as so. Instead of saying we don't have students and there
are no K-12 here. Actually, that was the verbage used by the person writing
not the website. The website does mention students and again I don't' find
the word students offensive because it has more meaning to me then others.
While the website does mention students anyone can participate and while
they do ask what grade the selection is like K-5, 6-8, 9-12 or other. Choose
other if the grades truly offend you. It really is no more then saying... 5
- 12, 12 - 14, 15 - 18 or Older. And while the Franklin Institute is a
learning center it is no different the Aquarium or the Science Center or
Smithsonian - (this is an honest question) should we stay away from those as
well?
I believe in using any resources no matter who they are directed for... if
my son likes them. There are things that he plays with that he uses in an
alternative manor then the manufacture's suggested method and others that he
plays just the way the manufacture thought children would neither is by my
doing.
I don't like being told that I should do this or I shouldn't do that...
unschooling for me is about doing what is best for my child and only me and
my child can really know what is best. Just to clarify I take a guidance
method when it comes to my son. If there is something that I think he might
like we check it out - if he says no and I really want to do it - I bring it
home and do it by myself. Sometimes he joins me and sometimes he just
benefits from the result.
If he wants to do it - I let him lead even if that still results in me doing
it under his instruction or even harder when he tells me to leave even when
I am not being controlling.
So I really I want to know is why I shouldn't use any resource that will
benefit my son if he want to learn it?
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
Did you know?...
--most well-known brands of lipstick contain lead?
--air fresheners have toxic ingredients you aren't supposed to breathe?
--most household cleaners have carcinogens and neurotoxins such as
formaldehyde, phenols and/or phosphates?
--of 2,983 everyday products, 884 have toxic chemicals?
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too. Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact
me directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of seana saxon
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:40 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Flip a penny Tuesday
me off a little - I have learned from as well and hope that no one has
become too offended.
While no one may have meant to be huffy about the way things were said they
were interpreted as so. Instead of saying we don't have students and there
are no K-12 here. Actually, that was the verbage used by the person writing
not the website. The website does mention students and again I don't' find
the word students offensive because it has more meaning to me then others.
While the website does mention students anyone can participate and while
they do ask what grade the selection is like K-5, 6-8, 9-12 or other. Choose
other if the grades truly offend you. It really is no more then saying... 5
- 12, 12 - 14, 15 - 18 or Older. And while the Franklin Institute is a
learning center it is no different the Aquarium or the Science Center or
Smithsonian - (this is an honest question) should we stay away from those as
well?
I believe in using any resources no matter who they are directed for... if
my son likes them. There are things that he plays with that he uses in an
alternative manor then the manufacture's suggested method and others that he
plays just the way the manufacture thought children would neither is by my
doing.
I don't like being told that I should do this or I shouldn't do that...
unschooling for me is about doing what is best for my child and only me and
my child can really know what is best. Just to clarify I take a guidance
method when it comes to my son. If there is something that I think he might
like we check it out - if he says no and I really want to do it - I bring it
home and do it by myself. Sometimes he joins me and sometimes he just
benefits from the result.
If he wants to do it - I let him lead even if that still results in me doing
it under his instruction or even harder when he tells me to leave even when
I am not being controlling.
So I really I want to know is why I shouldn't use any resource that will
benefit my son if he want to learn it?
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
Did you know?...
--most well-known brands of lipstick contain lead?
--air fresheners have toxic ingredients you aren't supposed to breathe?
--most household cleaners have carcinogens and neurotoxins such as
formaldehyde, phenols and/or phosphates?
--of 2,983 everyday products, 884 have toxic chemicals?
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too. Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact
me directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of seana saxon
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:40 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Flip a penny Tuesday
On 1/17/06, Deb Lewis <ddzimlew@...> wrote:
>
> ***your original comment was the first post I read on this list and it
> was really rather off-putting.***
>
> Were you put off that unschoolers don't have students or that this is not
> a K-12 community?
>
Neither, I was put off by the way the statement was made. I tried to say
that as politely as I could. I don't need to purpetuate this issue. I
thought I might be helpful in letting you know that the way you posted was
not something I, as a new member, appreciated. I do hope to lurk and gleen
from this group but for now I will stop contributing to this thread.
Seana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
[email protected]
I posted the link and I do apologize sending it without a "schooly - proceed
with caution" note. I meant to, but I was multi-tasking....not usually a
good idea for me.
I understand the points Deb made in her later posts. Like this one:
***Right, but I was talking about the responsibility we have to new
unschoolers on a list about unschooling. I think helping them move
beyond the world and language of school is essential to understanding
unschooling. *****
My view is that we are minorities (unschoolers) within a minority
(homeschoolers) and we are just going to accept some language and some form-filling-out
to participate in some things. In fact, language and procedures are part
of life. And just because it is a school project doesn't mean our own
families won't enjoy it (in fact, we will probably enjoy it more).
And as this is a discussion list, not a school, let's discuss it! I think
people will get more help discussing "why" something is schooly instead of
assuming they shouldn't see it or participate in it at all.
I do agree it is sort of a weird project, I still haven't quite figured out
what Ben has to do with flipping pennies!
leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
with caution" note. I meant to, but I was multi-tasking....not usually a
good idea for me.
I understand the points Deb made in her later posts. Like this one:
***Right, but I was talking about the responsibility we have to new
unschoolers on a list about unschooling. I think helping them move
beyond the world and language of school is essential to understanding
unschooling. *****
My view is that we are minorities (unschoolers) within a minority
(homeschoolers) and we are just going to accept some language and some form-filling-out
to participate in some things. In fact, language and procedures are part
of life. And just because it is a school project doesn't mean our own
families won't enjoy it (in fact, we will probably enjoy it more).
And as this is a discussion list, not a school, let's discuss it! I think
people will get more help discussing "why" something is schooly instead of
assuming they shouldn't see it or participate in it at all.
I do agree it is sort of a weird project, I still haven't quite figured out
what Ben has to do with flipping pennies!
leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>>I don't think the point of that experiment is"fun." >>But remember what Hobbes (the tiger) said. "If nobody makes you do it, it counts as fun." :o) I'll show it to Casey today. She may think it's cool and participate or she may think it's nothing special and decline my offer.
>>a former school at home mom who "encourages" her stilldeschooling child to sit down and fill out the official worksheet and
maybe read this or that little lesson and submit that fun data could be
damaging weeks or months of deschooling>>
Very true. So perhaps we should be mindful to put in a disclaimer when we post activities from schooly sites. Just a quick...I know this is kind of schooly but it could be fun to participate in a relaxed manner...would be a good intro.
--
~Mary, unschooling mom to Conor (16) and Casey (11)
"Just today I'm going to be utterly present for my children, I'm going to be in their world (not just doing my own thing while they do theirs), I'm going to really hear them, I'm going to prepare myself to be present starting right now."
~Ren Allen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***I was put off by the way the statement was made.***
This is an example of meta-discussion. The reason meta-discussion is a
violation of the posting policies is simple:
Readers cannot know "the way" the statement was made.
Readers can't know whether the poster banged it out angrily or tapped it
out lightly and happily believing it funny and clever or simply thought
it would be a good time to mention unschoolers don't have students or
grade levels.
Meta-discussions almost always begin when a reader, in response to
internal feelings of defensiveness, gives a negative "voice" or "tone" to
someone else's post.
List members are free to post about the *ideas* of students and grade
levels in regard to unschooling but meta-discussion is in violation of
the list posting policies.
It's easy to see by one exchange how meta-discussion could potentially
derail a list from it's stated purpose. And one purpose of this list is
helping new unschoolers move beyond "school think."
Deb Lewis
This is an example of meta-discussion. The reason meta-discussion is a
violation of the posting policies is simple:
Readers cannot know "the way" the statement was made.
Readers can't know whether the poster banged it out angrily or tapped it
out lightly and happily believing it funny and clever or simply thought
it would be a good time to mention unschoolers don't have students or
grade levels.
Meta-discussions almost always begin when a reader, in response to
internal feelings of defensiveness, gives a negative "voice" or "tone" to
someone else's post.
List members are free to post about the *ideas* of students and grade
levels in regard to unschooling but meta-discussion is in violation of
the list posting policies.
It's easy to see by one exchange how meta-discussion could potentially
derail a list from it's stated purpose. And one purpose of this list is
helping new unschoolers move beyond "school think."
Deb Lewis
Ren Allen
"I do agree it is sort of a weird project, I still haven't quite
figured out what Ben has to do with flipping pennies!"
One of his famous quotes is "a penny saved is a penny earned"...:)
and he WAS quite a scientist and philosopher.
Sierra is out flipping pennies at the moment, and needs me...I'll
describe how we had fun with the activity, in a very non-schoolish
manner later. Right now, we've moved way beyond the activity and are
testing out the theory that Jared had about starting with heads up or
tails up.
So far we've proven nothing, but laughed a whole bunch.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
figured out what Ben has to do with flipping pennies!"
One of his famous quotes is "a penny saved is a penny earned"...:)
and he WAS quite a scientist and philosopher.
Sierra is out flipping pennies at the moment, and needs me...I'll
describe how we had fun with the activity, in a very non-schoolish
manner later. Right now, we've moved way beyond the activity and are
testing out the theory that Jared had about starting with heads up or
tails up.
So far we've proven nothing, but laughed a whole bunch.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Danielle Conger
Su Penn wrote:
fun and participate in data collection with others from around the
country, to perhaps do their own continued research, and, last but
certainly not least, to watch Rosencrantz and Gildenstern are Dead just
for the fun of making the connection to probability and coin flipping
and play.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (7), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
>Or, those who are interested could see this as an opportunity to have
> p.s. My negative reaction to the "flip a penny" project wasn't the
> K-12 thing so much as the claim that it would "show once and for all"
> whether heads or tails come up more--do these people know anything
> about probability <g>?
fun and participate in data collection with others from around the
country, to perhaps do their own continued research, and, last but
certainly not least, to watch Rosencrantz and Gildenstern are Dead just
for the fun of making the connection to probability and coin flipping
and play.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (7), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
Breezy Stevens/ Lady Lasairíona of Crea
Deb Lewis wrote:
'educational' simultaneously? I certainly enjoy many things that are
'educational', as do my children. I don't really care what the point of
the experiment is to them- it's fun for us!
participating, don't you think? Hence the 'linguistic shorthand' remark.
speak accordingly. I think that pretty much anything is appropriate for
an unschooling list. Should I disallow my kids to attend Space Night at
the local Elementary School because it's held on school premises,
targeted at school students, and formatted in a schoolish manner? If my
kids are following their passions, absolutely not. I worry sometimes
that unschoolers can have just as narrow a viewpoint as school teachers,
only in the opposite direction. I think it's more important to be open
to inspiration, passion, and fun wherever they may be found than to
worry that something is 'schoolish'.
pursuits. I think we need to remember to let the whole world open up,
not just to close off one tunnel and open another one. What I worry
about is the child who truly enjoys organized academic activities being
discouraged from following their interests simply because the adult
perceives it as being schoolish. I have one of these kids (possibly
two!), and it's taken me 4 years to be able to let go and listen to her
on this one.
(following our bliss, if you will), rather than focusing on what NOT to do.
format, but the 'encouragement' of the mother.
well, from someone who's been a bit, shall we say, rabid about it?
Just for the record, my 11-year-old, who usually doesn't haul it out of
bed until noon or later, was up at 8:00 this morning, because she was so
excited about the experiment. She thought it was so cool that people all
over the place were participating. When we were done, she took her
Tooth Fairy money and wanted to register to have it tracked at
wheresgeorge.com , and from there we went to the Secret Service website
and learned how to spot counterfeit money...not bad for someone who very
often doesn't want to do anything but watch TV...:) It's wonderful to
see her get excited about something!
Please know that I'm not trying to cause an argument here, but I know
from experience that it's easy to close your mind to certain things and
adopt an 'us' (homeschoolers or unschoolers) against 'them' (schools,
the government, etc.) attitude, and to feel like what we do is right,
and therefore, everything they do is wrong. I'm not accusing, I'm
speaking from my own experience.
Blessings,
Breezy
>Not to nitpick too much, but can't something be both 'fun' and
>
> The point of this list is unschooling. The point of the Franklin
> Institute is education. I don't think the point of that experiment is
> "fun."
'educational' simultaneously? I certainly enjoy many things that are
'educational', as do my children. I don't really care what the point of
the experiment is to them- it's fun for us!
>Of course, but a 2-year-old might have a bit of a hard time
>
>
> If it's fun then anyone of any age will enjoy it, not *just* "students"
> not *just* those in the "K-12" range.
participating, don't you think? Hence the 'linguistic shorthand' remark.
>So some people might have a differernt viewpoint from our own, and may
> I don't think we need linguistic shorthand to say "fun." "Fun" seems
> pretty short. Does "spread the word in the K-12 community" sound like
> shorthand for "fun?" Is it appropriate for an unschooling list?
>
speak accordingly. I think that pretty much anything is appropriate for
an unschooling list. Should I disallow my kids to attend Space Night at
the local Elementary School because it's held on school premises,
targeted at school students, and formatted in a schoolish manner? If my
kids are following their passions, absolutely not. I worry sometimes
that unschoolers can have just as narrow a viewpoint as school teachers,
only in the opposite direction. I think it's more important to be open
to inspiration, passion, and fun wherever they may be found than to
worry that something is 'schoolish'.
>Right, as long as it doesn't close their minds to certain activities or
>
> Right, but I was talking about the responsibility we have to new
> unschoolers on a list about unschooling. I think helping them move
> beyond the world and language of school is essential to understanding
> unschooling.
pursuits. I think we need to remember to let the whole world open up,
not just to close off one tunnel and open another one. What I worry
about is the child who truly enjoys organized academic activities being
discouraged from following their interests simply because the adult
perceives it as being schoolish. I have one of these kids (possibly
two!), and it's taken me 4 years to be able to let go and listen to her
on this one.
>Right, so let's try to focus on following our passions and inspirations
>
> It think avoiding schoolish things might be exactly what some new
> unschoolers should do. Some people new to unschooling at first can't see
> learning without teaching. There's a reason we talk so much about
> deschooling.
(following our bliss, if you will), rather than focusing on what NOT to do.
> It won't hurt us to think about this or talk about it on an unschoolingRight again. And again, the problem here is not the activity or the
> list, but a former school at home mom who "encourages" her still
> deschooling child to sit down and fill out the official worksheet and
> maybe read this or that little lesson and submit that fun data could be
> damaging weeks or months of deschooling, thinking she's just offering
> something fun.
format, but the 'encouragement' of the mother.
> I'm urging care especially because this is a list forI agree, but I wish to add a little caution in the other direction as
> new unschoolers.
>
well, from someone who's been a bit, shall we say, rabid about it?
Just for the record, my 11-year-old, who usually doesn't haul it out of
bed until noon or later, was up at 8:00 this morning, because she was so
excited about the experiment. She thought it was so cool that people all
over the place were participating. When we were done, she took her
Tooth Fairy money and wanted to register to have it tracked at
wheresgeorge.com , and from there we went to the Secret Service website
and learned how to spot counterfeit money...not bad for someone who very
often doesn't want to do anything but watch TV...:) It's wonderful to
see her get excited about something!
Please know that I'm not trying to cause an argument here, but I know
from experience that it's easy to close your mind to certain things and
adopt an 'us' (homeschoolers or unschoolers) against 'them' (schools,
the government, etc.) attitude, and to feel like what we do is right,
and therefore, everything they do is wrong. I'm not accusing, I'm
speaking from my own experience.
Blessings,
Breezy
Deb Lewis
***I think
people will get more help discussing "why" something is schooly instead
of
assuming they shouldn't see it or participate in it at all.***
"Why" a thing is schooly is more obvious than why a schooly thing can
potentially trip up new unschoolers. Kelly wrote "The Three Stages of
Unschooling" and mentions some of the advantages of getting school
thoughts and activities out of our heads, especially as new unschoolers.
I didn't "assume" new unschoolers shouldn't see the schooly thing or
participate. I didn't assume it was schooly. I went and looked and saw
the schooliness <g> and because this list is here for newbies I cautioned
school activities can be problematic for some new unschoolers.
*** I do agree it is sort of a weird project, I still haven't quite
figured out
what Ben has to do with flipping pennies! ***
"A penny saved is a penny earned" ??? They were flipping penny's,
specifically, not any old coin.
Deb Lewis
people will get more help discussing "why" something is schooly instead
of
assuming they shouldn't see it or participate in it at all.***
"Why" a thing is schooly is more obvious than why a schooly thing can
potentially trip up new unschoolers. Kelly wrote "The Three Stages of
Unschooling" and mentions some of the advantages of getting school
thoughts and activities out of our heads, especially as new unschoolers.
I didn't "assume" new unschoolers shouldn't see the schooly thing or
participate. I didn't assume it was schooly. I went and looked and saw
the schooliness <g> and because this list is here for newbies I cautioned
school activities can be problematic for some new unschoolers.
*** I do agree it is sort of a weird project, I still haven't quite
figured out
what Ben has to do with flipping pennies! ***
"A penny saved is a penny earned" ??? They were flipping penny's,
specifically, not any old coin.
Deb Lewis
Deb Lewis
***Right now, we've moved way beyond the activity and are
testing out the theory that Jared had about starting with heads up or
tails up.***
Ren, a while back NPR covered a coin flipping experiment. If you google
"NPR coin flip" or some such you might find it. It was pretty funny and
if I remember they found the way a penny landed had a lot to do with the
way a penny started. <g>
What about copper pennies vs. zinc? Squished pennies, verses drilled
pennies? Indian head pennies vs. Lincoln head? <g>
Deb Lewis
testing out the theory that Jared had about starting with heads up or
tails up.***
Ren, a while back NPR covered a coin flipping experiment. If you google
"NPR coin flip" or some such you might find it. It was pretty funny and
if I remember they found the way a penny landed had a lot to do with the
way a penny started. <g>
What about copper pennies vs. zinc? Squished pennies, verses drilled
pennies? Indian head pennies vs. Lincoln head? <g>
Deb Lewis
S Drag-teine
*I looked forward to homeschooling
as a way of being free from evaluating my kids according to the
standards of an institution I have very little respect for*
I completely agree and hope to get to that point. Currently I am under
public school and next year I will be under an umbrella school so that I can
get there.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
Did you know?...
--most well-known brands of lipstick contain lead?
--air fresheners have toxic ingredients you aren't supposed to breathe?
--most household cleaners have carcinogens and neurotoxins such as
formaldehyde, phenols and/or phosphates?
--of 2,983 everyday products, 884 have toxic chemicals?
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too. Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact
me directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Su Penn
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 11:38 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] school & students was Flip a penny Tuesday
When I came out as a lesbian at 19, I felt like I could look back
through my life and see signs I hadn't recognized all the way back to
elementary school (of course, I "went back in" years later due to my
relationship with David...but that's another story).
When I started attending Quaker meeting and learning about Quaker
faith and practice, I realized that I had been strongly drawn to
Quakerly ideas for years, especially in some poems of Walt Whitman's
I had loved since high school.
It's like that with unschooling, too! One of the early warning signs
that I was destined to be an unschooler was that, even when I thought
I was going to "homeschool" ("We'll do classical education and my
children will know Latin! We'll do Charlotte Mason and my children
will be richly versed in wonderful literature!") it made no sense to
me when I heard people call their children "students" or talk about
what grade they were in. I was puzzled when people referred to "My
fifth grader..." I didn't see why anyone would want to think of their
kid as assigned to a school grade (or even do the mental work of
keeping track of what grade their kid would be in!). I thought school
grades were so arbitrary that they'd have little or no relation to
our lives as homeschoolers. I figured my kid might be doing "sixth
grade" math and "fourth grade" science at the same time, that based
on his interests and talents he'd move faster and farther in some
things than in others. But I figured even more that I wouldn't even
know what "grade level" he was at.
When I hear homeschooling parents say, "My child reads three grade
levels ahead," I'm just agog that they would keep track of a thing
like that (and the ones who tell me how many years and months ahead
their kids are just astonish me). I looked forward to homeschooling
as a way of being free from evaluating my kids according to the
standards of an institution I have very little respect for--if I
wanted them graded according to school standards, I always thought,
I'd send them to school. (I feel the same way when I homeschooling
mom talks about "grading papers." WTH?)
So clearly I had a natural bent toward unschooling! It just doesn't
seem useful to me to overlay "teacher" and "student" on our parent/
child relationships. How do teachers treat students? What assumptions
do they make about who knows what and how it's going to be
communicated? About where the authority lies? About who decides what
is important? About how much input students are "allowed"? About who
has to sit where? When I think about what it is like to be a student
(and what it is like to be a teacher, because I do that work now part-
time), that's not a relationship I want to have with my kids.
One of the reasons I didn't see myself grading or keeping track of
grade level was that I didn't want to make an idol of "academic
achievement." I won't go into details, but high academic achievement
didn't do me a lot of good--and over-valuing it did me even less
good, undermining my self-esteem. It also limited me to doing only
what the surprisingly low standards of the schools required. OK, I
will go into details (smile). My first semester in graduate school,
one of my professors called me in for a conference after I'd written
my first paper for her. "I gave you an A," she told me. "I had to
because it's A work. But I could tell it wasn't your best work. I
could tell you tossed it off. I want you to do better!" It made no
sense to me at all. Why would I work harder if papers I tossed off
were worth an A? "Tossed-off" work had gotten me As all through high
school and undergraduate work at a supposedly demanding university.
I didn't want my kids to be limited that way. I didn't want them to
be measured by someone else's standards and fall short--and I didn't
want them to fall short of their own potential because someone else's
standards were so low.
Coming to unschooling has been a flowering of that seed, that seed
being one of the things that led me to homeschool in the first place.
Su
p.s. My negative reaction to the "flip a penny" project wasn't the
K-12 thing so much as the claim that it would "show once and for all"
whether heads or tails come up more--do these people know anything
about probability <g>?
p.p.s. My kids are busily engaged on a project right now that I would
never have allowed pre-unschooling: they're pulling all the toys off
the shelves in the living room to see how big a pile they make
(they're 4 and almost-2). I did say to Eric, 4, "do you think you'll
help me pick it all up later?" Eric: "yes." Me: "Ok, we'll have a
pick-up party after lunch." I'll issue invitations and they'll come
if they want <g>.
as a way of being free from evaluating my kids according to the
standards of an institution I have very little respect for*
I completely agree and hope to get to that point. Currently I am under
public school and next year I will be under an umbrella school so that I can
get there.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
Did you know?...
--most well-known brands of lipstick contain lead?
--air fresheners have toxic ingredients you aren't supposed to breathe?
--most household cleaners have carcinogens and neurotoxins such as
formaldehyde, phenols and/or phosphates?
--of 2,983 everyday products, 884 have toxic chemicals?
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too. Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact
me directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Su Penn
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 11:38 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] school & students was Flip a penny Tuesday
When I came out as a lesbian at 19, I felt like I could look back
through my life and see signs I hadn't recognized all the way back to
elementary school (of course, I "went back in" years later due to my
relationship with David...but that's another story).
When I started attending Quaker meeting and learning about Quaker
faith and practice, I realized that I had been strongly drawn to
Quakerly ideas for years, especially in some poems of Walt Whitman's
I had loved since high school.
It's like that with unschooling, too! One of the early warning signs
that I was destined to be an unschooler was that, even when I thought
I was going to "homeschool" ("We'll do classical education and my
children will know Latin! We'll do Charlotte Mason and my children
will be richly versed in wonderful literature!") it made no sense to
me when I heard people call their children "students" or talk about
what grade they were in. I was puzzled when people referred to "My
fifth grader..." I didn't see why anyone would want to think of their
kid as assigned to a school grade (or even do the mental work of
keeping track of what grade their kid would be in!). I thought school
grades were so arbitrary that they'd have little or no relation to
our lives as homeschoolers. I figured my kid might be doing "sixth
grade" math and "fourth grade" science at the same time, that based
on his interests and talents he'd move faster and farther in some
things than in others. But I figured even more that I wouldn't even
know what "grade level" he was at.
When I hear homeschooling parents say, "My child reads three grade
levels ahead," I'm just agog that they would keep track of a thing
like that (and the ones who tell me how many years and months ahead
their kids are just astonish me). I looked forward to homeschooling
as a way of being free from evaluating my kids according to the
standards of an institution I have very little respect for--if I
wanted them graded according to school standards, I always thought,
I'd send them to school. (I feel the same way when I homeschooling
mom talks about "grading papers." WTH?)
So clearly I had a natural bent toward unschooling! It just doesn't
seem useful to me to overlay "teacher" and "student" on our parent/
child relationships. How do teachers treat students? What assumptions
do they make about who knows what and how it's going to be
communicated? About where the authority lies? About who decides what
is important? About how much input students are "allowed"? About who
has to sit where? When I think about what it is like to be a student
(and what it is like to be a teacher, because I do that work now part-
time), that's not a relationship I want to have with my kids.
One of the reasons I didn't see myself grading or keeping track of
grade level was that I didn't want to make an idol of "academic
achievement." I won't go into details, but high academic achievement
didn't do me a lot of good--and over-valuing it did me even less
good, undermining my self-esteem. It also limited me to doing only
what the surprisingly low standards of the schools required. OK, I
will go into details (smile). My first semester in graduate school,
one of my professors called me in for a conference after I'd written
my first paper for her. "I gave you an A," she told me. "I had to
because it's A work. But I could tell it wasn't your best work. I
could tell you tossed it off. I want you to do better!" It made no
sense to me at all. Why would I work harder if papers I tossed off
were worth an A? "Tossed-off" work had gotten me As all through high
school and undergraduate work at a supposedly demanding university.
I didn't want my kids to be limited that way. I didn't want them to
be measured by someone else's standards and fall short--and I didn't
want them to fall short of their own potential because someone else's
standards were so low.
Coming to unschooling has been a flowering of that seed, that seed
being one of the things that led me to homeschool in the first place.
Su
p.s. My negative reaction to the "flip a penny" project wasn't the
K-12 thing so much as the claim that it would "show once and for all"
whether heads or tails come up more--do these people know anything
about probability <g>?
p.p.s. My kids are busily engaged on a project right now that I would
never have allowed pre-unschooling: they're pulling all the toys off
the shelves in the living room to see how big a pile they make
(they're 4 and almost-2). I did say to Eric, 4, "do you think you'll
help me pick it all up later?" Eric: "yes." Me: "Ok, we'll have a
pick-up party after lunch." I'll issue invitations and they'll come
if they want <g>.
On Jan 17, 2006, at 12:16 AM, Ren Allen wrote:
> There are quite a few newer members to the list, so maybe we can have
> a conversation about how our children are not students, how we don't
> see them as a certain grade and how to get more schoolish thoughts out
> of our lives and heads! That's always a good thing.
Yahoo! Groups Links
Deb Lewis
***an opportunity to have
fun and participate in data collection with others from around the
country,***
Data collection can be fun. Dylan has collected cut worm data, and has
participated in feeder watch surveys and House Finch eye disease surveys.
I think you can find the results of the last "once and for all" Ben
Franklin coin flip through google. <g>
***watch Rosencrantz and Gildenstern are Dead just
for the fun of making the connection to probability and coin flipping
and play.***
Great movie! Great fun!
Deb Lewis
fun and participate in data collection with others from around the
country,***
Data collection can be fun. Dylan has collected cut worm data, and has
participated in feeder watch surveys and House Finch eye disease surveys.
I think you can find the results of the last "once and for all" Ben
Franklin coin flip through google. <g>
***watch Rosencrantz and Gildenstern are Dead just
for the fun of making the connection to probability and coin flipping
and play.***
Great movie! Great fun!
Deb Lewis
Breezy Stevens/ Lady Lasairíona of Crea
Ren Allen wrote:
actually got 5 heads and 5 tails- which I thought was an unlikely result...
Breezy
> Right now, we've moved way beyond the activity and areToo funny! My daughter was fascinated by that possibility as well. We
> testing out the theory that Jared had about starting with heads up or
> tails up.
actually got 5 heads and 5 tails- which I thought was an unlikely result...
Breezy
Breezy Stevens/ Lady Lasairíona of Crea
Deb Lewis wrote:
Breezy
> Ren, a while back NPR covered a coin flipping experiment. If you googleOooooh, fascinating stuff...I bet my daughter will LOVE this! Hmm...
> "NPR coin flip" or some such you might find it. It was pretty funny and
> if I remember they found the way a penny landed had a lot to do with the
> way a penny started. <g>
>
> What about copper pennies vs. zinc? Squished pennies, verses drilled
> pennies? Indian head pennies vs. Lincoln head? <g>
>
> Deb Lewis
Breezy
S Drag-teine
My son is five and I really like the unschooling this moment topic because
it makes me realize that everyone is doing what I am doing in their own way.
What does everyone do as far as sleep schedules?
Part of the reason I ask is that we occasionally watch television and movies
that I prefer the children not be exposed to yet if at all. My rule is that
Quentin (age 5) must be in his room usually watching a movie before we watch
these shows.
Any feed back would be helpful.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
Did you know?...
--most well-known brands of lipstick contain lead?
--air fresheners have toxic ingredients you aren't supposed to breathe?
--most household cleaners have carcinogens and neurotoxins such as
formaldehyde, phenols and/or phosphates?
--of 2,983 everyday products, 884 have toxic chemicals?
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too. Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact
me directly.
it makes me realize that everyone is doing what I am doing in their own way.
What does everyone do as far as sleep schedules?
Part of the reason I ask is that we occasionally watch television and movies
that I prefer the children not be exposed to yet if at all. My rule is that
Quentin (age 5) must be in his room usually watching a movie before we watch
these shows.
Any feed back would be helpful.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
Did you know?...
--most well-known brands of lipstick contain lead?
--air fresheners have toxic ingredients you aren't supposed to breathe?
--most household cleaners have carcinogens and neurotoxins such as
formaldehyde, phenols and/or phosphates?
--of 2,983 everyday products, 884 have toxic chemicals?
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too. Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact
me directly.
[email protected]
>>I understand your concerns about deschooling and working at helping parents to get away from something. I just wish that your original post hadaddressed how to approach this in an unschooling fashon rather than what
appears to be confrontational and dismissive.>>
Well we've gotten past that first post now thankfully. :o) Deb is a cool unschooler and regular poster. You're a newbie and we're glad you're here! So what's going on in your unschooling house right now? Did you respond to that post yet? (I have trouble keeping track of all the names.)
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: seana saxon <seana.saxon@...>
--
~Mary, unschooling mom to Conor (16) and Casey (11)
"Just today I'm going to be utterly present for my children, I'm going to be in their world (not just doing my own thing while they do theirs), I'm going to really hear them, I'm going to prepare myself to be present starting right now."
~Ren Allen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
"Not to nitpick too much, but can't something be both 'fun' and
'educational' simultaneously? I certainly enjoy many things that are
'educational', as do my children. I don't really care what the point
of the experiment is to them- it's fun for us!"
Yes of course!! But the very term "educational" makes some of us
leery...ONLY because "educational" gets valued over fun so much in our
socity.
If a person is having fun, it IS "educational".
But here, you'll find us saying "if it's fun, they're LEARNING" rather
than "ecuational".
Your last statement "I don't really care what the point of the
experiment is to them-it's fun for us" tells me you've got it figured
out! It's not what we're doing, nearly so much as WHY. You're doing it
because it's fun, not to get some subject covered or push something
into your childs head. COOL!
Nothing wrong with the term, but I'm sure everyone can see how our
society focuses on "ecuational" and loses sight of the CHILD right in
front of their eyes, whose joy they are squashing while ignoring all
the FUN they could be having.
Fun is living is life is learning....it all goes hand in hand with
unschooling. That's the beauty of it for me.
When my children are having fun, I value that above any special
"educational" video, project, show, activity or book!! Fun is learning.
A family that plays together LEARNS together...that's my motto.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
'educational' simultaneously? I certainly enjoy many things that are
'educational', as do my children. I don't really care what the point
of the experiment is to them- it's fun for us!"
Yes of course!! But the very term "educational" makes some of us
leery...ONLY because "educational" gets valued over fun so much in our
socity.
If a person is having fun, it IS "educational".
But here, you'll find us saying "if it's fun, they're LEARNING" rather
than "ecuational".
Your last statement "I don't really care what the point of the
experiment is to them-it's fun for us" tells me you've got it figured
out! It's not what we're doing, nearly so much as WHY. You're doing it
because it's fun, not to get some subject covered or push something
into your childs head. COOL!
Nothing wrong with the term, but I'm sure everyone can see how our
society focuses on "ecuational" and loses sight of the CHILD right in
front of their eyes, whose joy they are squashing while ignoring all
the FUN they could be having.
Fun is living is life is learning....it all goes hand in hand with
unschooling. That's the beauty of it for me.
When my children are having fun, I value that above any special
"educational" video, project, show, activity or book!! Fun is learning.
A family that plays together LEARNS together...that's my motto.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
S Drag-teine
Yes, my son as well, hmm - we have several squashed pennies I wonder if
there is a difference between the squashed pennies?
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
Did you know?...
--most well-known brands of lipstick contain lead?
--air fresheners have toxic ingredients you aren't supposed to breathe?
--most household cleaners have carcinogens and neurotoxins such as
formaldehyde, phenols and/or phosphates?
--of 2,983 everyday products, 884 have toxic chemicals?
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too. Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact
me directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Breezy Stevens/ Lady
Lasairíona of Creavanore
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Flip a penny Tuesday
Deb Lewis wrote:
Breezy
Yahoo! Groups Links
there is a difference between the squashed pennies?
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
Did you know?...
--most well-known brands of lipstick contain lead?
--air fresheners have toxic ingredients you aren't supposed to breathe?
--most household cleaners have carcinogens and neurotoxins such as
formaldehyde, phenols and/or phosphates?
--of 2,983 everyday products, 884 have toxic chemicals?
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too. Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact
me directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Breezy Stevens/ Lady
Lasairíona of Creavanore
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Flip a penny Tuesday
Deb Lewis wrote:
> Ren, a while back NPR covered a coin flipping experiment. If you googleOooooh, fascinating stuff...I bet my daughter will LOVE this! Hmm...
> "NPR coin flip" or some such you might find it. It was pretty funny and
> if I remember they found the way a penny landed had a lot to do with the
> way a penny started. <g>
>
> What about copper pennies vs. zinc? Squished pennies, verses drilled
> pennies? Indian head pennies vs. Lincoln head? <g>
>
> Deb Lewis
Breezy
Yahoo! Groups Links
Robyn Coburn
<<<<< My son is five and I really like the unschooling this moment topic
because it makes me realize that everyone is doing what I am doing in their
own way.
What does everyone do as far as sleep schedules?
Part of the reason I ask is that we occasionally watch television and movies
that I prefer the children not be exposed to yet if at all. My rule is that
Quentin (age 5) must be in his room usually watching a movie before we watch
these shows. >>>>>
You already had someone mention the idea of recording your shows - we have a
satellite and it has been a great thing for freeing us from the temporal
tyranny of scheduling. We all get to record our shows.
We have never had the mindset that we wanted to send Jayn away from us. Nor
have we had a house that would accommodate such a desire even if we had one!
For a long time dh and I used to get our alone time in the mornings before
Jayn awoke, rather than the traditional in the evening. Now we seem to be on
different schedules most of the time. It is sometimes a strain between dh
and I, to have less time to talk without interruption. We get around it part
of the time by phoning, and by taking the opportunity when Jayn, now 6, is
busy with her own concerns. Mostly we just try to maintain the awareness
that this time is temporary - the tv shows will come again, or end up on
dvd.
Not as a recommendation but just as a demonstration of what Unschooling can
encompass, here is the ongoing saga of our unusual rotating sleep schedule:
<<< Jayn lives on a 26-28 hour day. She sleeps for close to 10 hours and
then stays awake for 16 - 18. Since the world is rotating once every 24
hours, this means we (she and I) are on a permanent slow march around the
clock. Sometimes she divides her sleep into two 5 hour sessions on a
completely unpredictable basis. In our household we are generally over the
course of a month or 5 weeks spending about a third of that time on a "night
shift" when Jayn gets up in the early evening and goes to be after the sun
has risen. Another part of the time she is getting up in the middle of the
night and going to bed in the mid afternoon - this is usually when she will
take a nap and somehow flip around to being on either nights or days.
She has never had a set bedtime, and when a toddler simply went to sleep
with us. Dh and I were fortunate in that he was at home after a knee
replacement for the vast majority of her young life, so he and I were able
to have our adult together time in the morning. Recently he has returned to
work in the film business, on a varying schedule, so one of the limiting
factors in how I am able to cope with the pushing through to nights is the
need to avoid disturbing his rest. In the past, Jayn has been able to be
awake for a couple of extra hours in the bedroom watching tv and asking
periodically for a snack, while I snoozed. Now that dynamic occurs with me
on the increasingly uncomfortable (as we both age) sofa. [Or I bring a snack
bag, similar to our park day food bag, into the bedroom so I don't have to
get up.]
Jayn is not comfortable being alone and lonely during the nights, so I stay
with her. These quiet, intense times have been the scene of some of our most
enriched imaginative games and discussions. They can be wonderful nights. It
is only when she does her sudden flips that I have a serious tiredness
problem. When she moves into it gradually, I am able to just follow her,
still usually getting up an hour or so sooner than she awakens. I keep
myself alert by typing on the computer sometimes, when she is engaged with
her dolls. Sometimes she watches DVD's, and there are times when I watch
some other DVD's on my computer or the portable player at the same time.
Being up all night has some restrictions that are not manifest during the
day. The first is obviously the need for quiet. Luckily our apartments have
wonderfully thick walls, and have all been soundproofed by the Los Angeles
Airport Authority. I have to help Jayn avoid jumping games, as we are on the
second floor. She gets her activity by doing sofa jumping, cycling on the
exercise bike, and after the sun comes up.
The other restriction is the limited social contact she has during that 10
[now more like 6 days] day(night) period. We struggle to get to her just
reconvened dance class (1pm on Tuesdays) and the park playdate following.
Sometimes she is literally getting out of bed to rush to class, at other
times, about to go to bed as soon as we get home....
....It is a fine balance between going places at a certain time and how long
the drive home then is - sometimes a nap during that drive is utterly
disastrous. It only takes 15 minutes of sleeping for Jayn to be refreshed
enough for seven more energetic hours, regardless of when she awoke that
"morning".
Awakening her when she doesn't wish to get up is futile. She has chosen to
miss birthday parties and sleep instead. Trying to manipulate her into
sleeping - even with nursing, darkened rooms, quiet time, warm baths, valium
(JUST KIDDING!) any kind of trick at all - is equally pointless. She has
kept on playing and chatting happily for hours after I would have expected
collapse.
The only time that we ever have any kind of emotional conflict or issues
between us over sleeping, is when I am not being acceptant of Jayn's
schedule. It is true that I am sometimes tired. However I have to choose to
not be resentful or fight her process, or I am tired *and* grumpy. I adapt
my other activities - cleaning, laundry, shopping, errands - around her.
Thank goodness for 24 hour markets!
Dh makes time to play with Jayn when he gets home from work [and lots of
other times too!]. Again the only times when there are conflicts between us,
are when he loses his sense of acceptance about the sleep schedule - if he
is feeling lonely or left out. Most of the time he is a miracle of
acceptance.
I have the expectation that this is temporary. I have been sometimes
reassured by other Unschoolers that this will likely pass. Eventually Jayn
may need fewer sleep hours so her days will regulate back to being 24 hours
long. Also she will gradually become more self sufficient and less needy of
company or assistance, so in time I will be free to follow my own preference
of sleeping, which is to go to bed between midnight and 2am and rise around
10-10.30am. (Theater hours) For all I know she will become the same morning
person my dh is. Or she may be a night owl, which is what I suspect.
I occasionally talk to her about what she is missing by being awake at night
instead of during the day. She often talks about activities she wants to be
part of - such as ice skating or gymnastics. I will have to make sure that
these classes are not early in the morning. Our ability to get to something
regularly scheduled before 11am would often be pretty impaired by both my
tiredness and her schedule.>>>>>
I let Jayn know that I am tired and thinking about bed by saying that I
"don't have much left in me - about 10 minutes." It helps to alert her to
the upcoming transition.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/232 - Release Date: 1/17/2006
because it makes me realize that everyone is doing what I am doing in their
own way.
What does everyone do as far as sleep schedules?
Part of the reason I ask is that we occasionally watch television and movies
that I prefer the children not be exposed to yet if at all. My rule is that
Quentin (age 5) must be in his room usually watching a movie before we watch
these shows. >>>>>
You already had someone mention the idea of recording your shows - we have a
satellite and it has been a great thing for freeing us from the temporal
tyranny of scheduling. We all get to record our shows.
We have never had the mindset that we wanted to send Jayn away from us. Nor
have we had a house that would accommodate such a desire even if we had one!
For a long time dh and I used to get our alone time in the mornings before
Jayn awoke, rather than the traditional in the evening. Now we seem to be on
different schedules most of the time. It is sometimes a strain between dh
and I, to have less time to talk without interruption. We get around it part
of the time by phoning, and by taking the opportunity when Jayn, now 6, is
busy with her own concerns. Mostly we just try to maintain the awareness
that this time is temporary - the tv shows will come again, or end up on
dvd.
Not as a recommendation but just as a demonstration of what Unschooling can
encompass, here is the ongoing saga of our unusual rotating sleep schedule:
<<< Jayn lives on a 26-28 hour day. She sleeps for close to 10 hours and
then stays awake for 16 - 18. Since the world is rotating once every 24
hours, this means we (she and I) are on a permanent slow march around the
clock. Sometimes she divides her sleep into two 5 hour sessions on a
completely unpredictable basis. In our household we are generally over the
course of a month or 5 weeks spending about a third of that time on a "night
shift" when Jayn gets up in the early evening and goes to be after the sun
has risen. Another part of the time she is getting up in the middle of the
night and going to bed in the mid afternoon - this is usually when she will
take a nap and somehow flip around to being on either nights or days.
She has never had a set bedtime, and when a toddler simply went to sleep
with us. Dh and I were fortunate in that he was at home after a knee
replacement for the vast majority of her young life, so he and I were able
to have our adult together time in the morning. Recently he has returned to
work in the film business, on a varying schedule, so one of the limiting
factors in how I am able to cope with the pushing through to nights is the
need to avoid disturbing his rest. In the past, Jayn has been able to be
awake for a couple of extra hours in the bedroom watching tv and asking
periodically for a snack, while I snoozed. Now that dynamic occurs with me
on the increasingly uncomfortable (as we both age) sofa. [Or I bring a snack
bag, similar to our park day food bag, into the bedroom so I don't have to
get up.]
Jayn is not comfortable being alone and lonely during the nights, so I stay
with her. These quiet, intense times have been the scene of some of our most
enriched imaginative games and discussions. They can be wonderful nights. It
is only when she does her sudden flips that I have a serious tiredness
problem. When she moves into it gradually, I am able to just follow her,
still usually getting up an hour or so sooner than she awakens. I keep
myself alert by typing on the computer sometimes, when she is engaged with
her dolls. Sometimes she watches DVD's, and there are times when I watch
some other DVD's on my computer or the portable player at the same time.
Being up all night has some restrictions that are not manifest during the
day. The first is obviously the need for quiet. Luckily our apartments have
wonderfully thick walls, and have all been soundproofed by the Los Angeles
Airport Authority. I have to help Jayn avoid jumping games, as we are on the
second floor. She gets her activity by doing sofa jumping, cycling on the
exercise bike, and after the sun comes up.
The other restriction is the limited social contact she has during that 10
[now more like 6 days] day(night) period. We struggle to get to her just
reconvened dance class (1pm on Tuesdays) and the park playdate following.
Sometimes she is literally getting out of bed to rush to class, at other
times, about to go to bed as soon as we get home....
....It is a fine balance between going places at a certain time and how long
the drive home then is - sometimes a nap during that drive is utterly
disastrous. It only takes 15 minutes of sleeping for Jayn to be refreshed
enough for seven more energetic hours, regardless of when she awoke that
"morning".
Awakening her when she doesn't wish to get up is futile. She has chosen to
miss birthday parties and sleep instead. Trying to manipulate her into
sleeping - even with nursing, darkened rooms, quiet time, warm baths, valium
(JUST KIDDING!) any kind of trick at all - is equally pointless. She has
kept on playing and chatting happily for hours after I would have expected
collapse.
The only time that we ever have any kind of emotional conflict or issues
between us over sleeping, is when I am not being acceptant of Jayn's
schedule. It is true that I am sometimes tired. However I have to choose to
not be resentful or fight her process, or I am tired *and* grumpy. I adapt
my other activities - cleaning, laundry, shopping, errands - around her.
Thank goodness for 24 hour markets!
Dh makes time to play with Jayn when he gets home from work [and lots of
other times too!]. Again the only times when there are conflicts between us,
are when he loses his sense of acceptance about the sleep schedule - if he
is feeling lonely or left out. Most of the time he is a miracle of
acceptance.
I have the expectation that this is temporary. I have been sometimes
reassured by other Unschoolers that this will likely pass. Eventually Jayn
may need fewer sleep hours so her days will regulate back to being 24 hours
long. Also she will gradually become more self sufficient and less needy of
company or assistance, so in time I will be free to follow my own preference
of sleeping, which is to go to bed between midnight and 2am and rise around
10-10.30am. (Theater hours) For all I know she will become the same morning
person my dh is. Or she may be a night owl, which is what I suspect.
I occasionally talk to her about what she is missing by being awake at night
instead of during the day. She often talks about activities she wants to be
part of - such as ice skating or gymnastics. I will have to make sure that
these classes are not early in the morning. Our ability to get to something
regularly scheduled before 11am would often be pretty impaired by both my
tiredness and her schedule.>>>>>
I let Jayn know that I am tired and thinking about bed by saying that I
"don't have much left in me - about 10 minutes." It helps to alert her to
the upcoming transition.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 17, 2006, at 12:54 PM, S Drag-teine wrote:
this one website and look at the issue in terms of what type of
wording will help people who want to unschool but still have panic
attacks that their children are behind or aren't learning what they
should.
Some unschoolers, new or experienced, can take activities wrapped up
in schoolish clothing and do them because they're fun without even
thinking in terms of Important Things Their Kids Should Learn From This.
But since this is a beginner's list, it's respectful to keep in mind
there are plenty of people who are trying to get away from thinking
of teaching and treating their kids as vessels to be filled with
Stuff They Must Know. And then right on the list that's intended to
help guide them is an activity that pulls them back into the mode of
thinking they're trying to get away from. It fills them full of angst
because they haven't been doing any activities directed at getting
particular information into their kids. They're afraid that their
kids don't know who Ben Franklin, who is obviously Very Important,
and don't know probability from probity and that's Very Important too.
I was going to suggest comparing the list to an AA meeting where some
people will be fine while others drink but others aren't ready to
even smell alcohol without getting cravings. But that demonizes the
activity. And it isn't the activity that was a problem, it was the
dressing around it, the Here's Something That's Really Important To
Get Into Your Kids Who Will Suffer If They Aren't Doing Such Things.
It's not the activity. It's not that many unschoolers can't use the
activity and ignore the schoolishness of it. It's that what's offered
on a beginner's list should help people move towards unschooling.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> So I really I want to know is why I shouldn't use any resource thatI think it will help if you step back away from this one post about
> will
> benefit my son if he want to learn it?
this one website and look at the issue in terms of what type of
wording will help people who want to unschool but still have panic
attacks that their children are behind or aren't learning what they
should.
Some unschoolers, new or experienced, can take activities wrapped up
in schoolish clothing and do them because they're fun without even
thinking in terms of Important Things Their Kids Should Learn From This.
But since this is a beginner's list, it's respectful to keep in mind
there are plenty of people who are trying to get away from thinking
of teaching and treating their kids as vessels to be filled with
Stuff They Must Know. And then right on the list that's intended to
help guide them is an activity that pulls them back into the mode of
thinking they're trying to get away from. It fills them full of angst
because they haven't been doing any activities directed at getting
particular information into their kids. They're afraid that their
kids don't know who Ben Franklin, who is obviously Very Important,
and don't know probability from probity and that's Very Important too.
I was going to suggest comparing the list to an AA meeting where some
people will be fine while others drink but others aren't ready to
even smell alcohol without getting cravings. But that demonizes the
activity. And it isn't the activity that was a problem, it was the
dressing around it, the Here's Something That's Really Important To
Get Into Your Kids Who Will Suffer If They Aren't Doing Such Things.
It's not the activity. It's not that many unschoolers can't use the
activity and ignore the schoolishness of it. It's that what's offered
on a beginner's list should help people move towards unschooling.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]