kkraczek1969

Hi, I apologize if this has been answered before, but I don't quite
have a grip on this particular question, even with all that I have read.

If I were to discuss with my daughter her plans for the future, and
she said that she wanted to go to college, would it be against the
unschooling philosophy to give her direction on what types of things
that she may need to do to get there? For example, if I explain to her
that she may need to practice writing and math? I'm not forcing her to
do these things, but I want her to at least be aware that these are
things she would probably need to do. Is this too much direction? I
just don't know if my daughter would even be aware of some things if I
did not tell her. (Of course, she's only 11, but I want her to know
all of her options, all of the time)

Please help me decide if I'm getting too involved... I just know that
my own options as a child were few, and I want my kids to do whatever
makes them happy, but also to be prepared for anything!

Thanks in advance!

Kristin
Mom to Alex(14) Haley (11) and Rachel (9)

nrskay

Kristen:

My dd, 11, wants to be a vet. She has asked what she will need to
study in order to be one. I have told her, but at this point she is
not ready to study the science, biology or the math needed. But she
is interested in studing animals, mainly cats and their behavior. She
has done a lot of research on her own through the computer. She also
is starting to volunteer with our vet a few hours each week.

For us, I feel that when my dd is ready to start studying the
sciences, biology and math, she will. Here in CA she will be able to
attend the jr. college and receive dual credit (high school/community
college).

Eleven is still young enough to just enjoy life and pursue her own
interest and she will decided when she is ready to seek the knowledge
needed to pursue a certain career.

Kay

kkraczek1969

Thanks Kay :)

My daughter wants to work with animals as well- she wants to be a
dolphin trainer at SeaWorld! (Or a chef, or a paleontologist, or an
artist... ;) ) We had asked what type of training is required to be a
dolphin trainer, and were told that a Psychology degree would be her
best bet.

I agree with you Kay- she will definitely do it when she's ready. In
the meantime I love watching and listening to her fascination with
animals- and art, and cooking, and... everything!

Again, I just didn't know if it would be too pushy to inform her of
requirements and such when the subject comes up.

Thanks for your help- I don't think I ever would have considered
unschooling if not for these boards!

Kristin


>
> Kristen:
>
> My dd, 11, wants to be a vet. She has asked what she will need to
> study in order to be one. I have told her, but at this point she is
> not ready to study the science, biology or the math needed. But she
> is interested in studing animals, mainly cats and their behavior. She
> has done a lot of research on her own through the computer. She also
> is starting to volunteer with our vet a few hours each week.
>
> For us, I feel that when my dd is ready to start studying the
> sciences, biology and math, she will. Here in CA she will be able to
> attend the jr. college and receive dual credit (high school/community
> college).
>
> Eleven is still young enough to just enjoy life and pursue her own
> interest and she will decided when she is ready to seek the knowledge
> needed to pursue a certain career.
>
> Kay
>

Deb

How about helping her find out the requirements and then discuss
with her how to develop those skills rather than telling her "okay
college means you have to do writing and math let's get the
workbooks" - if her writing and math skills aren't 'ready' when she
applies, she might need to take remedial classes. But guess what?
Those classes are already there and are typically filled with public
high school graduates. There are lots of ways to develop writing and
math skills. Discuss them together. Depending on what she wants to
pursue (assuming she chooses college), she may be able to simply
take a CLEP test (college level exam for placement) and have that
count for all the math she'll need (DH took all the CLEP tests at
age 27 when he started college and got about 1 1/2 semesters worth
of credit for spending some $ to pay for the tests and some time, a
couple hours each test, and was able to skip most of the general
courses like fine arts, math, science, comp 101, etc. Not only was
the cost of the tests less than the cost of the credit hours but it
freed up space in his schedule to fit courses he took for enjoyment
that wouldn't otherwise fit into an undergraduate major).

--Deb

Danielle Conger

kkraczek1969 wrote:

> Thanks Kay :)
>
> My daughter wants to work with animals as well- she wants to be a
> dolphin trainer at SeaWorld! (Or a chef, or a paleontologist, or an
> artist... ;) ) We had asked what type of training is required to be a
> dolphin trainer, and were told that a Psychology degree would be her
> best bet.


As a former academic, I think the best thing *any* parent can do to help
a child prepare for a career is to help them get hands-on
experience--internships, other volunteer work, self-employment, etc.

Unschoolers are particularly well-suited to facilitate this kind of
experience, and it's what will make the single biggest difference,
imnsho, whether on a college track or not.

Interested in a career that works with animals? The math can fall into
place very quickly when it's time for tests. In the meantime, consider
volunteering at a local vet or animal shelter, starting a pet-sitting or
dog-walking or clean-up service. Make contacts, get experience. This is
what impresses employers and admissions officers both.

--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (7), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jan 6, 2006, at 10:11 AM, kkraczek1969 wrote:

> If I were to discuss with my daughter her plans for the future, and
> she said that she wanted to go to college, would it be against the
> unschooling philosophy to give her direction on what types of things
> that she may need to do to get there?

There is NOTHING an 11 year old needs to do now to get ready for
college. Absolutely nothing.

> For example, if I explain to her
> that she may need to practice writing and math?

She doesn't need to practice writing and math at 11 to go to college
later - probably at least 7 or more years away.

> I'm not forcing her to
> do these things, but I want her to at least be aware that these are
> things she would probably need to do.

Are you really thinking that kids need to "practice" writing and math
in order to go to college? It isn't true. Try reading "The
Unprocessed Child" by Valerie Fitzenreiter if you don't believe me.

> Is this too much direction?

If you're misleading her into thinking that she needs to even THINK
about college now - then it is not that it is too much, it is that it
is wrong. You need to get your own information right so that you can
give her better counsel.

> I
> just don't know if my daughter would even be aware of some things if I
> did not tell her.

By the time she's 16, 17, 18, 19 -- she'll know lots of things that
you don't know, too. She'll have lots of sources of information
besides just you. In fact, part of your job is to help her become
aware of OTHER sources of information. But not about college now. At
11 she shouldn't have to be THINKING at all about her future - at
least not beyond the kid kind of thinking about what she wants to be
when she grows up - NOT to be held to.

> (Of course, she's only 11, but I want her to know
> all of her options, all of the time)

That's not honest or a good idea. NOBODY can know all options all the
time. Impossible. You're picking out college - but are you making
sure she knows ALL her options that don't involve college? Are you
making sure she knows what she'd need to do to get into the Peace
Corps? The military? An apprenticeship? A technical school? Every
possible kind of career that she might eventually be interested in?

>
> Please help me decide if I'm getting too involved...

Not too involved - involved in the wrong things. Concerned about the
wrong things.

> I just know that
> my own options as a child were few, and I want my kids to do whatever
> makes them happy, but also to be prepared for anything!

Impossible.

BUT - support their CURRENT interests - get involved, be aware of
THEIR passions. Observe them and how they choose to learn things -
what lights up their eyes, what gets their attention, what kinds of
things do they keep coming back to, what do they talk about, and so on.

Your job is to support those things while providing a rich
environment with a variety of options -- notice the word "option" -
everything is optional - but you do make sure that kids have lots of
opportunity to FIND their own interests and passions - lots of
experience, lots to choose from.

The big THING about unschooling that is so amazing is that kids WILL
figure out what they want to do and what it takes to do it when they
are used to -- guess what? Figuring out what they want to do and what
it takes to do it. But at 11, figuring out what she wants to do and
what it takes to do it means figuring out that she really likes to
play dressups and that she needs to go to a thrift store to get more
things to dress up in.

Your part in that might be to notice that she's having a lot of fun
playing dressups and you might say, "Hey, while we're out let's stop
at the thrift store and see if you can find any cool dress-ups." If
she's never heard of a thrift store before then there you go - you've
introduced her to something new. And while you're there, you might
see some appliance that she's never seen - a waffle iron or a
watering can....whatever. You'll say, "Oh, look at this - how cool."
And if she's interested, you MIGHT talk about it and if she's REALLY
interested you might buy it and go home and make waffles. And maybe
she will enjoy that and you'll get into cooking a lot together -
starting with making up unusual toppings for your waffles.

Or maybe none of that will happen. Maybe while you're in the thrift
store you'll see a handpainted umbrella and she'll say, "Hey, I could
do that - I could paint umbrellas and sell them." And you'll talk
about what kind of paint to use and maybe get some and try it out and
who knows where that might lead.

OR - maybe you'll browse around, find a gorgeous wedding dress for
sale and buy it and she'll go home and play "wedding" for months and
develop a lifelong love of creating beautiful weddings and end up a
wedding planner.

OR not. Maybe you'll just browse around and find nothing of interest
and leave and do something else. That's okay. Move on.

-pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jan 6, 2006, at 10:26 AM, nrskay wrote:

> But she
> is interested in studing animals, mainly cats and their behavior. She
> has done a lot of research on her own through the computer. She also
> is starting to volunteer with our vet a few hours each week.

How about as a next step try giving up even talking about 11 year
olds "studying" things - but change the terminology to say they are
learning about things by pursuing their interests in various ways. It
may sound nitpicky, but it really helps to get away from that school-
think - the idea that to learn you have to "study" is wrong. "Study"
has such a different ring to it and if we're trying to get away from
"school-think" we might want to let that word slip out of our
vocabulary for a while, along with "teach." (I KNOW there are times
to use it - people say they "study karate," for example. But - as an
exercise to help "get" unschooling better - try to use "learn" in
place of "study" or "teach" whenever possible.

I just spent 20 minutes reading up on an actor I'd never seen - his
name is Kyle MacLachlan and he plays David Swain on "In Justice." I
wasn't "studying about Kyle MacLachlan" - but I was learning about
him. And the reason I was interested in him is because a young friend
of mine is playing David Swain as a young child - so I was curious
about how much he actually looked like Kyle MacLachlan and one thing
led to another and I just satisfied my smidgen of curiosity about the
actor. Who knows - maybe if he'd been absolutely fascinating I'd have
gotten seriously interested and moved on to start an international
fan club. LOL - my point is that, yes, let's support our kids'
interests but, let's be careful about making too big a deal about
them being on a "path" toward a career. LOTS of kids say they want to
be vets when they are 11 years old. I did, myself. At 11, my 15 year
old, Rosie, was absolutely totally planning to have a career
involving horses. Now she says she wants to be a librarian. So we got
very involved in 4-H and horses for several years and now she
volunteers in the library every week and is doing a Girl Scout Silver
Award Project related to libraries. And she could very possibly end
up becoming a librarian. Maybe a horseback riding librarian <G>. But
maybe she'll move on to something else. We parents have to be really
careful about not getting ourselves over-excited about our young
kids' plans - let them have those plans, but don't make such a big
deal of them that we inadvertently make it hard for them to reconsider.

If we think of it MORE as supporting their current interests and not
as getting them prepared for the future, we'll do better by them.
Really - and it is worth talking a LOT about why that is true - so
I'd suggest that those who aren't convinced or aren't sure they
understand why, please ask questions or go ahead and state the
counter-arguments that might be running through your heads as you
read this, so that we can get them out in the open and dissect them.
It might be a little hard to do - but VERY worth it. SO worth it!

-pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jan 6, 2006, at 10:39 AM, kkraczek1969 wrote:

> Again, I just didn't know if it would be too pushy to inform her of
> requirements and such when the subject comes up.

My daughter sometimes has wanted to know what people have done to get
into the careers they're into. And one time we got a chance to chat
with one of the women working with the whales at Sea World and my
daughter asked her what her training was.

If a child is INTERESTED in what the training or background is of
people in certain careers, then you'd help them pursue that interest.

But that seems really different to me than telling an 11 year old
that if she wants to be a vet she'd better get started practicing
handwriting and math.

Not sure if that difference is clear, but it is critical to "getting"
unschooling, i think.

-pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kkraczek1969

Thanks for your response Pam, but I think that I may have been
misunderstood. The question that I posted was in regards to a one-time
conversation that I had with my daughter... I didn't mean to make it
sound as if that were my entire FOCUS.

The truth of it is, I brought her home so that she can be HERSELF- and
I never have held any expectations for her other than that she be
HAPPY. Her last two years of PS were so difficult for her that I knew
she didn't belong there, and I have no intention of re-creating that
for her at home. I enjoy encouraging ALL of her interests, and I have
seen her blossom into such a vibrant person in the last six months,
that I can hardly contain my enthusiasm when people ask about her.

It just so happened that the subject of college came up, and I didn't
want to be forceful- I'm trying very hard to avoid that- so I regret
that it sounded like I was.

Please don't take this as a negative post, as I really just feel the
need to clarify my objectives- (and I hate the way that writing
doesn't allow body language to show that I am NOT trying to be crabby
here) I fully intend to let my children choose, at all times, what it
is that they want to pursue. I simply was worried about those old
fears creeping into my conversation when the "c" word came up. She
asked, I told. Perhaps I told too much, but it hasn't come up since,
and I don't think she'll be picking up textbooks ANYTIME soon. :)

Thanks again- this post as well as all the others have been helpful in
my pursuit of answers!

Kristin




>
>
> On Jan 6, 2006, at 10:11 AM, kkraczek1969 wrote:
>
> > If I were to discuss with my daughter her plans for the future, and
> > she said that she wanted to go to college, would it be against the
> > unschooling philosophy to give her direction on what types of things
> > that she may need to do to get there?
>
> There is NOTHING an 11 year old needs to do now to get ready for
> college. Absolutely nothing.
>
> > For example, if I explain to her
> > that she may need to practice writing and math?
>
> She doesn't need to practice writing and math at 11 to go to college
> later - probably at least 7 or more years away.
>
> > I'm not forcing her to
> > do these things, but I want her to at least be aware that these are
> > things she would probably need to do.
>
> Are you really thinking that kids need to "practice" writing and math
> in order to go to college? It isn't true. Try reading "The
> Unprocessed Child" by Valerie Fitzenreiter if you don't believe me.
>
> > Is this too much direction?
>
> If you're misleading her into thinking that she needs to even THINK
> about college now - then it is not that it is too much, it is that it
> is wrong. You need to get your own information right so that you can
> give her better counsel.
>
> > I
> > just don't know if my daughter would even be aware of some things if I
> > did not tell her.
>
> By the time she's 16, 17, 18, 19 -- she'll know lots of things that
> you don't know, too. She'll have lots of sources of information
> besides just you. In fact, part of your job is to help her become
> aware of OTHER sources of information. But not about college now. At
> 11 she shouldn't have to be THINKING at all about her future - at
> least not beyond the kid kind of thinking about what she wants to be
> when she grows up - NOT to be held to.
>
> > (Of course, she's only 11, but I want her to know
> > all of her options, all of the time)
>
> That's not honest or a good idea. NOBODY can know all options all the
> time. Impossible. You're picking out college - but are you making
> sure she knows ALL her options that don't involve college? Are you
> making sure she knows what she'd need to do to get into the Peace
> Corps? The military? An apprenticeship? A technical school? Every
> possible kind of career that she might eventually be interested in?
>
> >
> > Please help me decide if I'm getting too involved...
>
> Not too involved - involved in the wrong things. Concerned about the
> wrong things.
>
> > I just know that
> > my own options as a child were few, and I want my kids to do whatever
> > makes them happy, but also to be prepared for anything!
>
> Impossible.
>
> BUT - support their CURRENT interests - get involved, be aware of
> THEIR passions. Observe them and how they choose to learn things -
> what lights up their eyes, what gets their attention, what kinds of
> things do they keep coming back to, what do they talk about, and so on.
>
> Your job is to support those things while providing a rich
> environment with a variety of options -- notice the word "option" -
> everything is optional - but you do make sure that kids have lots of
> opportunity to FIND their own interests and passions - lots of
> experience, lots to choose from.
>
> The big THING about unschooling that is so amazing is that kids WILL
> figure out what they want to do and what it takes to do it when they
> are used to -- guess what? Figuring out what they want to do and what
> it takes to do it. But at 11, figuring out what she wants to do and
> what it takes to do it means figuring out that she really likes to
> play dressups and that she needs to go to a thrift store to get more
> things to dress up in.
>
> Your part in that might be to notice that she's having a lot of fun
> playing dressups and you might say, "Hey, while we're out let's stop
> at the thrift store and see if you can find any cool dress-ups." If
> she's never heard of a thrift store before then there you go - you've
> introduced her to something new. And while you're there, you might
> see some appliance that she's never seen - a waffle iron or a
> watering can....whatever. You'll say, "Oh, look at this - how cool."
> And if she's interested, you MIGHT talk about it and if she's REALLY
> interested you might buy it and go home and make waffles. And maybe
> she will enjoy that and you'll get into cooking a lot together -
> starting with making up unusual toppings for your waffles.
>
> Or maybe none of that will happen. Maybe while you're in the thrift
> store you'll see a handpainted umbrella and she'll say, "Hey, I could
> do that - I could paint umbrellas and sell them." And you'll talk
> about what kind of paint to use and maybe get some and try it out and
> who knows where that might lead.
>
> OR - maybe you'll browse around, find a gorgeous wedding dress for
> sale and buy it and she'll go home and play "wedding" for months and
> develop a lifelong love of creating beautiful weddings and end up a
> wedding planner.
>
> OR not. Maybe you'll just browse around and find nothing of interest
> and leave and do something else. That's okay. Move on.
>
> -pam
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

nrskay

> How about as a next step try giving up even talking about 11 year
> olds "studying" things - but change the terminology to say they are
> learning about things by pursuing their interests in various ways.
It
> may sound nitpicky, but it really helps to get away from that school-

> think - the idea that to learn you have to "study" is
wrong. "Study"
> has such a different ring to it and if we're trying to get away
from
> "school-think" we might want to let that word slip out of our
> vocabulary for a while, along with "teach." (I KNOW there are times
> to use it - people say they "study karate," for example. But - as
an
> exercise to help "get" unschooling better - try to use "learn" in
> place of "study" or "teach" whenever possible.


Pam

I never thought about the word study before in that context. Your
right, it does sound "schoolish" and needs to be avoided. So
Elizabeth was learning about cats and their behavior.

And Elizabeth will most likely change her mind about what career she
wants several times before she finally decides. Actually I was a
Admin Asst for 10 years and decided to go to college at 30 to become a
nurse. Now, I stay home to be a mom, the greatest job yet!

Kay