[email protected]

Truly! Can't we take it down a notch on this list? If someone wants to
consider what they are doing is unschooling, who am I to tell them it's not. I may
not be completely and radically unschooling according to some. But it's the
category I feel comfortable in. Let's support each other as we get better at
this, not attack.

Nance


In a message dated 6/22/2004 4:24:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
However, I think we as unschoolers we should not be upset to hear what
others are doing.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Andrea

I have been lurking for a few days. My name is Andrea, and my son is
Tobin (4). I have belonged to other homeschooling/unschooling groups,
and am not surprised that there are some purists screaming for purity.
This is, after all an unschooling group where we are talking about the
basics of unschooling. However, the term "unschooling" has so many
different meanings to so many different FAMILIES. Since the time John
Holt began, unschooling has evolved and changed (just like any theory or
religion). I'm sure John Holt, after spending another 10 or so years,
would have said things that conflicted with original thoughts. Is there
a rule book for unschooling? Unschooling is very organic according to
each family, and would not be unschooling if there were a rule book. I
do believe we all have wonderful things to offer to this group. Some
may be more aggressively purist in their posts, and some may get their
feelings hurt. We probably can all agree that as the parent, we have a
lot to learn. There are ways to influence people without being
negative, or righteous. There are also ways to hear criticism that
won't leave you feeling stupid. This is not a religion. This is a way
of raising our kids to be confident self-learners.



Andrea





Truly! Can't we take it down a notch on this list? If someone wants to
consider what they are doing is unschooling, who am I to tell them it's
not. I may
not be completely and radically unschooling according to some. But it's
the
category I feel comfortable in. Let's support each other as we get
better at
this, not attack.

Nance






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cheryl Morkan

--- In [email protected], marbleface@a... wrote:
> Truly! Can't we take it down a notch on this list? If someone wants
to
> consider what they are doing is unschooling, who am I to tell them
it's not.

I second the motion. New people like myself who are interested in an
unschooling/gentle parenting lifestyle should be treated with the
same respect we give to our children. I love to read about everyones
views on unschooling and parenting. I came to unschooling by reading
positive accounts of unschooling families. The freedom to choose
what is best for my children is what I love most about homeschooling.
If I ask for advice I have the freedom to take what works for me and
leave the rest. I choose to leave the negative stuff behind.

And anyway, doesn't it seem that there is a continuum involved here.
Can only the most radical unschoolers call themselves unschoolers? I
feel like in my case I am easing into the waters instead of jumping
in head first. We still have certain controls in our house like
bedtime for 3yo ds. It's not set in stone, but there is a time range
we shoot for to have him in bed. But 11 yo ds goes to bed when he is
tired and wakes up when he is rested. Someday my 3yo will do the
same as my 11yo. But not before it feels right. That doesn't mean
I'm not a gentle parent. And it doesn't mean I can't call myself an
unschooler.


Cheryl

Nichole in Round Rock

Cheryl,

I always tell people on my Texas lists that it's an easing in and that's just fine. Some people can't jump into the middle. Sometimes when controls have been very tight, jumping into the middle with your children can confuse and frustrate them--and YOU. I think easing in is a great approach and I always advise this when someone in one of my groups is scared, or judging herself according to what the long-time unschoolers are doing.

Do you have a local support group? I find that local groups are much more supportive of where someone is right now, and helping her to take babysteps, or leaps, if that's what she needs.

I think, however, that Unschooling Basics is an information group, and not so much a support group. I may be wrong about that .

Nichole
----- Original Message -----
From: Cheryl Morkan
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 2:17 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Supporting each other


I
feel like in my case I am easing into the waters instead of jumping
in head first. We still have certain controls in our house like
bedtime for 3yo ds. It's not set in stone, but there is a time range
we shoot for to have him in bed...





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jon and Rue Kream

As it states in the list description, this is a place to "get beyond "school
think"". A post about teaching goals and planning to cover American History
next year can be expected to generate discussion about the fact that there
is a difference between homeschooling and unschooling. ~Rue


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren

"Let's support each other as we get better at
this, not attack."

There has been zero attacking done at this list, thus far.
An attack is calling people names, telling them they're wrong (this has not been done, but there has been discussion about how to bring unschooling philosophies into ALL of life) and being generally mean spirited.
I assume that all people here are adults, able to decide what applies to their lives and what does not. The people at this list are NOT my children, nor should any of us be expected to treat adult strangers like our children.
Respect goes both ways.
There are several long time unschoolers here, giving advice for FREE, spending time away from other things they could be doing in order to HELP people. Why? Because unschooling has brought such joy and happiness into our homes, we just want to share the possibilities with others.

This list is about helping people understand unschooling. Discussions will get detailed. If you don't want help understanding unschooling, or helping others understand unschooling, this isn't the list for you. That's ok.:)
But that IS our purpose here.

If someone posts about doing lessons, or units or teaching their children, YES, that flies in the face of unschooling. If it's about bedtimes or food or other parenting issues...not one person here has said "then you aren't an unschooler", but again, it will get questioned.

I have very clearly stated in the guidelines that there will be no discussion of how other people post. If it bothers you, either don't read it, or comment on the ideas being discussed, not the actual posting style. I've seen lists erupt into chaos over a discussion about each persons posts....so we aren't going to let that happen.

If you don't like the advice given, that's ok. That's part of a large group of people having discussion!:) But we urge you to stick to discussing the idea. If you get off on a tangent about the advice being given (for free), and the content of what you THINK the advice should be about, then posts will have to be moderated.

We aren't striving for agreement, we're striving for a healthy discussion of ideas.
If someone here has a problem with lessons/units and teaching being questioned, this is NOT the list for you.

Ren



Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/

[email protected]

There are ways and ways. One way is offputting, one way opens the door to new
thinking. I didn't join this list to have my every move as an unschooler
critiqued. I hope that I will learn from others and through sharing our
experiences others may learn a bit here and there from me. In time, everyone may be as
free of all thought of anything that you call "schoolish." Many of us aren't
there yet. We don't, imo, need to be pushed. We need to be allowed to get where
we need to go in our own time.

Nance



In a message dated 6/22/2004 4:56:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
Subject: RE: Supporting each other

As it states in the list description, this is a place to "get beyond "school
think"". A post about teaching goals and planning to cover American History
next year can be expected to generate discussion about the fact that there
is a difference between homeschooling and unschooling. ~Rue


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jon and Rue Kream

>>There are ways and ways.

**You can post in the way that you think is going to be most helpful.

In case anyone missed reading the 'welcome' message that is sent to all new
members, here is the guideline for the list that deals with this particular
subject:

"1) No discussions will be allowed about posts. This is called a
"meta-discussion" (discussing the discussion) and posts analyzing another
person's post or posting style will be rejected. If there is something about
a post that bothers you, stick to discussing the ideas presented, rather
than the post itself."

~Rue



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

On Jun 22, 2004, at 12:17 PM, Cheryl Morkan wrote:

> And anyway, doesn't it seem that there is a continuum involved here.
> Can only the most radical unschoolers call themselves unschoolers? I
> feel like in my case I am easing into the waters instead of jumping
> in head first. We still have certain controls in our house like
> bedtime for 3yo ds.

Hi Cheryl --

Unschooling means you don't preplan lessons, give assignments, follow a
curriculum, give tests or quizzes, or grade your child. You don't
decide FOR the child that he/she is going to study American history
this year and Ancient History next year or chemistry this month and
astronomy next month and so on. You do not have a little "schoolhouse"
at home with you as the teacher and all the usual trappings of school.

What you do INSTEAD is going to be different in every family - and
change over time.

It is the purpose of this list to talk about what unschooling is - to
explore answers to questions like: "What is unschooling? How does it
work? How do unschooled children learn? Do they learn traditional
school subjects? Are they successful? (What IS success?) Without
structured lessons planned for them, how do they know what they should
learn? How do you know they HAVE learned, if they don't take tests? Can
they go to college? How do they learn to follow directions? How do they
ever learn to do things they might not "feel like" doing? What does it
take to unschool? Can all parents unschool? Are there kids for whom
unschooling is a mistake? How do we get started? What if my child has
been in school or we've been doing a formal school-at-home format? Is
it unschooling if ---- I don't make my child learn anything? We use
textboooks? I only make my child do math? We use a curriculum, but use
it flexibly? My CHILD wants to use a curriculum?

All of the above and more are truly questions directly about
unschooling.

BUT -
The other stuff talked about by unschoolers - not having fixed
bedtimes, not having fixed limits on tv, letting kids choose their own
foods, etc., are all topics that can be seen more as "potential side
effects" or "possible repercussions" of living an unschooling
lifestyle. They don't define unschooling and there are plenty of people
who unschool and continue to impose limits on their kids in these and
other areas.

The reason they come up in unschooling discussions so often is that
once people let go of control over their child's learning, and they
come to have confidence and trust in their children and themselves in
that
area, it seems they naturally begin to experiment with "letting go" in
other areas as well.

So - when you're on an unschooling list, you are likely to run into
quite a few people who have questioned all these other kinds of control
over other aspects of children's lives, not just educational control.

I feel the need to repeat, over and over, these are things that many
long-time unschoolers have discovered to be the natural result of
unschooling, but you certainly do NOT have to adopt them in order to
unschool.

You unschool by dropping SCHOOLING - most especially the coercive
aspects of school!

I don't care what we're called. My older kids think of themselves as
unschoolers even though they both take community college courses in
which they are clearly not "unschooled." I don't think they are
"unschooling" anymore - but unschooling is what they identify with -
they feel like, having been unschooled, they are now permanently
granted that particular identity. I don't care. If somebody said, "But,
they aren't unschooling anymore!!" I'd agree. If somebody said, "They
ARE grown unschoolers, still, because they were unschooled and now they
are taking those college classes by choice," I'd say, "Yeah, okay." It
SO doesn't matter to me what they are called. I don't have a strong
urge to identify "people" by a particular title.

But when I want to talk about unschooling - I want to talk about kids
NOT going to school and not being taught in a school-like way by their
parents at home. I want to know that THAT is what we're talking about -
that it doesn't make sense to say, "We unschool using Calvert
Curriculum." I want the term to be useful in discussions about how
children learn without schooling of ANY kind. I don't want the
definition so watered down that self-proclaimed unschoolers are sharing
curriculum tips and lesson plans with each other.

People ask, "Is it okay if.....?" I dunno. That's the best answer I
can give. Do people want my permission? Why on earth would they ask a
list of complete strangers if something is okay? I cringe when I see
questions starting that way.

But if they ask, "Is it unschooling if....?" I think that is usually a
question worth exploring.

Is it still unschooling if we impose bedtimes? Yes you could still be
unschooling.

Is it still unschooling if we have limits and restrictions on tv or if
we don't have a tv at all? Yes you could still be unschooling.

Is it still unschooling if I make my kids eat their vegetables or
finish what they take or try a bite of anything new? Yes, you could
still be unschooling.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

pam sorooshian

On Jun 22, 2004, at 11:22 AM, Andrea wrote:

> However, the term "unschooling" has so many
> different meanings to so many different FAMILIES.

The ONLY thing that the so-called "purists" say is that "unschooling is
learning without the usual trappings of school."

Do you disagree with that? Would you go so far as to agree with a
definition of unschooling that included parent/teacher determined
textbook readings according to a preplanned schedule, assignments,
tests, and grades?

The "purists" repeat over and over that unschooling will look different
in different families.

When you say it will have different meanings to different families -
are you saying more than that it will look different in different
families? Are you including doing school-at-home as a kind of
unschooling?

I see the whole point of talking about unschooling as talking about
what it is like to live and learn without schooling. So "unschooling"
means simply "not schooling." That's it - an easy simple definition
that we can talk about, apparently, forever! <G>

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

pam sorooshian

On Jun 22, 2004, at 1:33 PM, Jon and Rue Kream wrote:

> the fact that there is a difference between homeschooling and
> unschooling.

I'd rephrase that, myself, for more clarity, and say there is a
difference between schooling-at-home and unschooling.

Unschoolers and school-at-homers usually all consider themselves
homeschoolers, since that term has come to be understood as sort of
generically meaning not sending kids off to brick and mortar schools.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Jon and Rue Kream

>>I'd rephrase that, myself, for more clarity, and say there is a
difference between schooling-at-home and unschooling.

**Yes, I see your point. ~Rue

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

I agree, Nance, to put in another way. Let us be allowed to learn about
unschooling in an unschoolish, non-coercive way.

Blessings,
Jamye


Quoting marbleface@...:

>
>
>
>
> There are ways and ways. One way is offputting, one way opens the door to new
>
>
> thinking. I didn't join this list to have my every move as an unschooler
>
> critiqued. I hope that I will learn from others and through sharing our
>
> experiences others may learn a bit here and there from me. In time, everyone
> may be as
>
> free of all thought of anything that you call "schoolish." Many of us aren't
>
> there yet. We don't, imo, need to be pushed. We need to be allowed to get
> where
>
> we need to go in our own time.
>
>
>
> Nance

Wendy E

I really hope everyone reads Pam's very wise words here...it really
puts things in perspective.

--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
>
> On Jun 22, 2004, at 12:17 PM, Cheryl Morkan wrote:
>
> > And anyway, doesn't it seem that there is a continuum involved
here.
> > Can only the most radical unschoolers call themselves
unschoolers? I
> > feel like in my case I am easing into the waters instead of
jumping
> > in head first. We still have certain controls in our house like
> > bedtime for 3yo ds.
>
> Hi Cheryl --
>
> Unschooling means you don't preplan lessons, give assignments,
follow a
> curriculum, give tests or quizzes, or grade your child. You don't
> decide FOR the child that he/she is going to study American
history
> this year and Ancient History next year or chemistry this month
and
> astronomy next month and so on. You do not have a
little "schoolhouse"
> at home with you as the teacher and all the usual trappings of
school.
>
> What you do INSTEAD is going to be different in every family - and
> change over time.
>
> It is the purpose of this list to talk about what unschooling is -
to
> explore answers to questions like: "What is unschooling? How does
it
> work? How do unschooled children learn? Do they learn traditional
> school subjects? Are they successful? (What IS success?) Without
> structured lessons planned for them, how do they know what they
should
> learn? How do you know they HAVE learned, if they don't take
tests? Can
> they go to college? How do they learn to follow directions? How do
they
> ever learn to do things they might not "feel like" doing? What
does it
> take to unschool? Can all parents unschool? Are there kids for
whom
> unschooling is a mistake? How do we get started? What if my child
has
> been in school or we've been doing a formal school-at-home format?
Is
> it unschooling if ---- I don't make my child learn anything? We
use
> textboooks? I only make my child do math? We use a curriculum,
but use
> it flexibly? My CHILD wants to use a curriculum?
>
> All of the above and more are truly questions directly about
> unschooling.
>
> BUT -
> The other stuff talked about by unschoolers - not having fixed
> bedtimes, not having fixed limits on tv, letting kids choose their
own
> foods, etc., are all topics that can be seen more as "potential
side
> effects" or "possible repercussions" of living an unschooling
> lifestyle. They don't define unschooling and there are plenty of
people
> who unschool and continue to impose limits on their kids in these
and
> other areas.
>
> The reason they come up in unschooling discussions so often is
that
> once people let go of control over their child's learning, and
they
> come to have confidence and trust in their children and themselves
in
> that
> area, it seems they naturally begin to experiment with "letting
go" in
> other areas as well.
>
> So - when you're on an unschooling list, you are likely to run
into
> quite a few people who have questioned all these other kinds of
control
> over other aspects of children's lives, not just educational
control.
>
> I feel the need to repeat, over and over, these are things that
many
> long-time unschoolers have discovered to be the natural result of
> unschooling, but you certainly do NOT have to adopt them in order
to
> unschool.
>
> You unschool by dropping SCHOOLING - most especially the coercive
> aspects of school!
>
> I don't care what we're called. My older kids think of themselves
as
> unschoolers even though they both take community college courses
in
> which they are clearly not "unschooled." I don't think they are
> "unschooling" anymore - but unschooling is what they identify
with -
> they feel like, having been unschooled, they are now permanently
> granted that particular identity. I don't care. If somebody
said, "But,
> they aren't unschooling anymore!!" I'd agree. If somebody
said, "They
> ARE grown unschoolers, still, because they were unschooled and now
they
> are taking those college classes by choice," I'd say, "Yeah,
okay." It
> SO doesn't matter to me what they are called. I don't have a
strong
> urge to identify "people" by a particular title.
>
> But when I want to talk about unschooling - I want to talk about
kids
> NOT going to school and not being taught in a school-like way by
their
> parents at home. I want to know that THAT is what we're talking
about -
> that it doesn't make sense to say, "We unschool using Calvert
> Curriculum." I want the term to be useful in discussions about how
> children learn without schooling of ANY kind. I don't want the
> definition so watered down that self-proclaimed unschoolers are
sharing
> curriculum tips and lesson plans with each other.
>
> People ask, "Is it okay if.....?" I dunno. That's the best answer
I
> can give. Do people want my permission? Why on earth would they
ask a
> list of complete strangers if something is okay? I cringe when I
see
> questions starting that way.
>
> But if they ask, "Is it unschooling if....?" I think that is
usually a
> question worth exploring.
>
> Is it still unschooling if we impose bedtimes? Yes you could still
be
> unschooling.
>
> Is it still unschooling if we have limits and restrictions on tv
or if
> we don't have a tv at all? Yes you could still be unschooling.
>
> Is it still unschooling if I make my kids eat their vegetables or
> finish what they take or try a bite of anything new? Yes, you
could
> still be unschooling.
>
> -pam
> National Home Education Network
> <www.NHEN.org>
> Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
> through information, networking and public relations.

pam sorooshian

On Jun 22, 2004, at 10:09 PM, doulos@... wrote:

> I agree, Nance, to put in another way. Let us be allowed to learn
> about
> unschooling in an unschoolish, non-coercive way.

How could anybody here stop you from learning about it in any way YOU
wish?

You have so many ways to learn about unschooling and you can choose
whatever works for you: for example, there are websites, magazines,
books, articles, conferences, email lists, message boards, local
support groups, and, best of all, experience in your own families.

Nobody is being "schooled" in unschooling here. There are no
assignments, no formal preplanned curriculum, no breaking the subject
matter into little bitty increments, no testing, no grades.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Sylvia Toyama

And what if reaching true unschooling 'in your own time' doesn't happen before your kids are grown? Unfortunately, in parenting our children, we don't often have the luxury of taking babysteps in our own time. We have to make our progress in our child's time, those early years that only come once and only last for a short time.

I'm speaking as the Mom of a grown child. My oldest son is 19, and on his own now. We didn't find homeschooling until he was 16 -- when he flat out told us he was not returning to school. We registered him as a homeschooler, and let him learn on his own, with the requirement from us that he get his GED. He did that, one year earlier than his scheduled graduation would have been. A year later, we landed squarely into unschooling as a lifestyle, and the lives our younger sons (8 & 3) lead today are vastly better than the early years my oldest son lived. I so wish I'd known unschooling when my oldest was young. He's living 19 better and happier than I did, but still there is so much he will have to undo and unlearn -- burdens I stuck him with because I was controlling in ways I have now given up.

It isn't always comfortable or easy to give up the controls, to let go of our timetable and cherished plans for our children, but it's essential if we're ever to recognize that their lives are their own. In the grand scheme, it's much easier to just never set up those timetables and plans, sit back and watch our children's lives unfold, in their time. Being a parent isn't about doing things in a way and time that meets our needs. Being a parent, especially an unschooling parent, is about making sure our children have all the freedom and love they need to live their own lives. It's about trusting that what the life they will live for their own soul will be so much more than we could have ever planned for them. When our children are born, we don't know who they are or what they'll become, but if we plan it all out for them, we'll also never know what they could have become.

Sorry if it's not always gentle to hear, but our kids don't have time to wait for us to feel comfortable in our own time. It's not about us -- it's about them.

Syl


We don't, imo, need to be pushed. We need to be allowed to get where we need to go in our own time.

Nance




---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nichole in Round Rock

Sylvia,

I agree with you, but some people will go running and screaming away with a general bad feeling about unschooling if they can't go at their own pace. My feeling is that children and adults go at their own pace no matter what anyone else says. Personally, I wanted to know everything there was to know about unschooling as fast I could know it, but it was a painful growing experience. Now, I seek out growth experiences because I know they are so amazingly great for my family. Not everyone is the same. So, every now and then there is a little grumbling about letting people progress at their own rate. My feeling is that any step toward unschooling is positive for mom, dad, children, ..... world. I am changing every day, trying to understand and communicate better/more effectively with people about unschooling and other things. I am a radical unschooler and I want to help people where they are.

We both have the same goal in mind. Mine approach is constantly changing, trying to get better. I want everyone to find what s/he needs to get to the goal.

:o)
Nichole
----- Original Message -----
From: Sylvia Toyama
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 10:04 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Supporting each other


And what if reaching true unschooling 'in your own time' doesn't happen before your kids are grown?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Valerie

> It isn't always comfortable or easy to give up the controls, to
let go of our timetable and cherished plans for our children, but
it's essential if we're ever to recognize that their lives are their
own. In the grand scheme, it's much easier to just never set up
those timetables and plans, sit back and watch our children's lives
unfold, in their time. Being a parent isn't about doing things in a
way and time that meets our needs. Being a parent, especially an
unschooling parent, is about making sure our children have all the
freedom and love they need to live their own lives. It's about
trusting that what the life they will live for their own soul will
be so much more than we could have ever planned for them. When our
children are born, we don't know who they are or what they'll
become, but if we plan it all out for them, we'll also never know
what they could have become.
>
> Sorry if it's not always gentle to hear, but our kids don't have
time to wait for us to feel comfortable in our own time. It's not
about us -- it's about them.
>
> Syl

*****Syl, I could just kiss you for this post!!!! Ok, maybe a hug.

love, Valerie who agrees 1000%

[email protected]

I don't usually care a heck of a lot if people call themselves unschoolers
all the while talking about teaching goals and planning next years course of
study - I figure they'll get it or they won't and it's too bad for them if they
don't. ::shrug::: But in this particular case, someone is planning to write a
book about their two year adventure through teaching goals and planning next
years course of study and call it unschooling - I think it's legitimate for
folks to pipe up with a "Hey, wait a minute - I don't think you understand and I'd
like you to be clear."

Having said that - I'm *Fascinated* that Joanne is apparently doing something
I've been promoting half seriously in homeschooling circles for years - that
even if folks can't homeschool all the way through they ought to skip junior
high (middle school, whatever they call it where you live) as those are the
years where most kids get their self esteem seriously punctured, where peer
dependence and family avoidance takes hold, where little gets learned about much of
anything except how to survive junior high. (Actually, I've been known to
propose we blow up the junior highs but that's another story..) So Joanne, I'd
love to hear what and why you're liberating your kid for those years only!

Deborah in IL


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sylvia Toyama

even if folks can't homeschool all the way through they ought to skip junior high (middle school, whatever they call it where you live) as those are the years where most kids get their self esteem seriously punctured, where peer dependence and family avoidance takes hold, where little gets learned about much of
anything except how to survive junior high. (Actually, I've been known to propose we blow up the junior highs but that's another story..)

***

I have to agree there. IME, jr. high/midschool is the most violent, soul-sucking, horrific environment left in our society, well maybe second to prison, but likely a close second!

My oldest went to school until late in his 10th grade year, and we moved btwn 7 and 8th grade, so he attended two mid-schools. Both were culturally very similar -- incredibly cliquish, mean to anyone who didn't fit the mold, and it was all dismissed as 'kids will be kids.' Very much like my own mid-school experience. Sr. High was still not great, but much better than mid-school.

If (big if here) either of our younger boys ever wanted to attend school, I would strongly discourage the mid-school years (I'm tempted to say I wouldn't allow it). I have to liken it to letting them play on the freeway. My job is to protect them and mid-school is just awful and dangerous to one's identity.

Syl


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sherri-Lee Pressman

Hearing all of this really makes me feel validated.... and more and more convinced to home/unschool my kids (can't believe it is going to two this fall when I think of it this way)

Public School was a horrible experience for me personally and I left there very damaged and today still work to heal from some of the damage inflicted on me while I was getting *socialized*. My dh had a rough time too but his personality and a family that supported him had him convinced it was the others that were wrong and him just getting through it. As hard as ps tried, it didn't kill his love of learning thankfully, but he did get kicked out in grade 12 for handing out birth control literature on the school grounds to the girls (yes this was back in the late 60's:)) and his mom went to war for him with the principle... I was in awe of them both.

For me I learned that I was mostly wrong and others were mostly right and for him he learned that they were mostly wrong and he was mostly right. Two different learnings in the different yet similar environments... no matter the outcome, I will not put my gentle, loving, sweet little girl through that.

Thank you for posting this and for this list,

Sherri-Lee
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----- Original Message -----
From: Sylvia Toyama
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Supporting each other


even if folks can't homeschool all the way through they ought to skip junior high (middle school, whatever they call it where you live) as those are the years where most kids get their self esteem seriously punctured, where peer dependence and family avoidance takes hold, where little gets learned about much of
anything except how to survive junior high. (Actually, I've been known to propose we blow up the junior highs but that's another story..)

***

I have to agree there. IME, jr. high/midschool is the most violent, soul-sucking, horrific environment left in our society, well maybe second to prison, but likely a close second!

My oldest went to school until late in his 10th grade year, and we moved btwn 7 and 8th grade, so he attended two mid-schools. Both were culturally very similar -- incredibly cliquish, mean to anyone who didn't fit the mold, and it was all dismissed as 'kids will be kids.' Very much like my own mid-school experience. Sr. High was still not great, but much better than mid-school.

If (big if here) either of our younger boys ever wanted to attend school, I would strongly discourage the mid-school years (I'm tempted to say I wouldn't allow it). I have to liken it to letting them play on the freeway. My job is to protect them and mid-school is just awful and dangerous to one's identity.

Syl


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 6/23/04 1:09 AM, doulos@... at doulos@... wrote:

> Let us be allowed to learn about
> unschooling in an unschoolish, non-coercive way.

How do you think this list is not allowing you to learn about unschooling?
It's an honest question. I'd like to understand why some people see coercion
and others see discussion.

Do you equate being able to share and talk about what you do on a list as
part of doing and learning about unschooling?

I think the problem is that people who love discussion lists (which this one
is) see the sharing and talking on the list as separate from the practice of
unschooling. The list is for ideas and information and things to think
about. It's like a book that talks back when they have a question :-) But
once they step away from the list, the ideas are theirs to do with what they
want. They can do them or not. Think about them or not. If they don't want
to let go of bedtimes, they don't have to. If they want unschool except for
math, they can. They can adapt what they read to suit them.

I think talking about and sharing and trading what we do can be valuable but
it's a separate thing from discussion. I think of that as support. And there
are lists where the focus is support, where people kick back and share their
hopes and fears and frustrations and get sympathy and support for who they
are. There are face-to-face groups that are also for support.

I think, like unschooling, it's a matter of recognizing what we want and
finding a way to get it. Discussion *is* what many people want so people who
like discussion make lists so they and others like them can meet their need
to discuss. Support is what many other people need. And there are separate
lists for them. Support and discussion are different needs and those needs
need to be met in different ways. For someone to stay unhappily with a
discussion list when what they need is support in order to unschool is like
a hands on child staying with books to learn about carpentry.

Joyce

[email protected]

I think we're all good parents here and you and I just disagree.

Nance


In a message dated 6/23/2004 2:02:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
It isn't always comfortable or easy to give up the controls, to let go of our
timetable and cherished plans for our children, but it's essential if we're
ever to recognize that their lives are their own. In the grand scheme, it's
much easier to just never set up those timetables and plans, sit back and watch
our children's lives unfold, in their time. Being a parent isn't about doing
things in a way and time that meets our needs. Being a parent, especially an
unschooling parent, is about making sure our children have all the freedom and
love they need to live their own lives. It's about trusting that what the
life they will live for their own soul will be so much more than we could have
ever planned for them. When our children are born, we don't know who they are
or what they'll become, but if we plan it all out for them, we'll also never
know what they could have become.

Sorry if it's not always gentle to hear, but our kids don't have time to wait
for us to feel comfortable in our own time. It's not about us -- it's about
them.

Syl


We don't, imo, need to be pushed. We need to be allowed to get where we need
to go in our own time.

Nance


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Oooh -- that would be a good thing to hear about. Don't make us wait for the
book! :)

Nance


In a message dated 6/24/2004 4:43:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
So Joanne, I'd
love to hear what and why you're liberating your kid for those years only!

Deborah in IL


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 6/25/04 4:41 PM, marbleface@... at marbleface@... wrote:

> I think we're all good parents here and you and I just disagree.

Which is basically impossible for anyone to tell on a list. Nor the point
either. The list isn't to help people be "good" parents because "good" is
too vague. People who make their kids do their curriculum each day are being
good parents (by their definition). People who spank their kids for
disobedience are being good parents (by their definition.)

What's important on a list is exchanging ideas in ways that are clear and
will help someone else get something the list is trying to offer.

If someone talks about how she needs to make her child do math every morning
because he craves structure and she's a good mother and is giving him what
he's asking for, that doesn't help anyone understand the principles of
unschooling nor help anyone apply the principles in their family. Nor does
it help if a mother has struggled to come to the conclusion that she needs
to make sure her son gets 8 hours of sleep a night because of his special
problems and their unique situation at home.

Maybe for their unique situations they're right. (Maybe not.) But the
sharing of it doesn't help anyone get closer to understanding unschooling.
It might help people understand the principle of doing what feels right and
what works for their family. But parents who send their kids to school are
using that principle too. So it's not a very helpful principle when people
have come to a list to find a way to do something different, especially
something that's bound to make them uncomfortable.

I think it's more helpful to see the list as an information resource for
those who want to do what the list is offering to help people do. (What the
list offers is determined by Ren and Kelly and company.) People can come and
say "I want to figure out how to let go of controls." And people can offer
ideas. But it's not a requirement that everyone should let go of controls.
(Nor an invitation to discuss how we should all just do what works for our
family.) There will be ideas and help in implementing those ideas that some
people won't have any interest in trying out. They can let that information
go by. Someone else might be finding it useful.

Joyce