segregation
Sherri-Lee Pressman
Hi there,
So I was driving in the van today with my dh and the guy who does some work for us and we were talking and homeschooling came up and he said he thought it was a good idea, but only served to isolate and segregate people into sub groups more and he thought that wasn't a good thing. I found this to be an interesting perspective and one I hadn't heard before and really had nothing to say in reply. He continued to comment that sure school might be hell but it prepares you for the hell of real life (ok his bias there) and I have heard this one before and don't agree... but what do you think about the thought that homeshooling is segregationist?
Thanks for your thoughts,
Sherri-Lee
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So I was driving in the van today with my dh and the guy who does some work for us and we were talking and homeschooling came up and he said he thought it was a good idea, but only served to isolate and segregate people into sub groups more and he thought that wasn't a good thing. I found this to be an interesting perspective and one I hadn't heard before and really had nothing to say in reply. He continued to comment that sure school might be hell but it prepares you for the hell of real life (ok his bias there) and I have heard this one before and don't agree... but what do you think about the thought that homeshooling is segregationist?
Thanks for your thoughts,
Sherri-Lee
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Kimberly Fry
Sherri-Lee Pressman <s-lp@...> wrote:
Then, you have the smart or gifted students, the average students (grouped according to ability), and the remedial or learning disabled students. There are also the ADD/ADHD kids and many other labels when you get into special education. Each of these groups has their own teacher. Even the average kids are divided up based on ability level.
Once a student is in a specific track. It is very difficult, sometimes nearly impossible, to get out of that track.
In high schools here students are tracked according to whether or not in elementary and junior high they performed well enough that they might be going to college. The students are put into the track when they enter high school. So you have college prep diplomas and a basic or general diploma, and it's not at all the same thing.
When I went to school and it wasn't all that long ago, the start of high school was a clean slate and that was when it started counting, not anymore.
I don't even really see how school prepares you for real life. It's a very different thing from working a real job unless you are a teacher!
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>>>>>...we were talking and homeschooling came up and he said he thought it was a good idea, but only served to isolate and segregate people into sub groups more and he thought that wasn't a good thing...He continued to comment that sure school might be hell but it prepares you for the hell of real life (ok his bias there)<<<<<I would respond that the schools, public and generally private, are the ones that segregate into the sub groups. First, students are segregated by grade and all students in each grade are the same age with maybe one years difference.
Then, you have the smart or gifted students, the average students (grouped according to ability), and the remedial or learning disabled students. There are also the ADD/ADHD kids and many other labels when you get into special education. Each of these groups has their own teacher. Even the average kids are divided up based on ability level.
Once a student is in a specific track. It is very difficult, sometimes nearly impossible, to get out of that track.
In high schools here students are tracked according to whether or not in elementary and junior high they performed well enough that they might be going to college. The students are put into the track when they enter high school. So you have college prep diplomas and a basic or general diploma, and it's not at all the same thing.
When I went to school and it wasn't all that long ago, the start of high school was a clean slate and that was when it started counting, not anymore.
I don't even really see how school prepares you for real life. It's a very different thing from working a real job unless you are a teacher!
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Well, I suppose it COULD be segregationist. And in some families I'm quite sure
they have that as a goal of their keeping their kids home. But I think it
really depends on the family. If it is important to us to see that our
children interact with various people it is not too hard to see that it
happens. Since unschooling kids are in real life situations more than ps kids
I would say it doesn't have to be a problem at all.
We've been fortunate enough to take several trips. To Mexico, to Singapore, and
we are currently living in China. We definitely aren't too segregationist. We
get to learn about a lot of different ways of thinking and living.
For some people it would be a bit harder based on where you live. But still I
think there are lots of ways to "strew" things in our children's path that will
give them a broader perspective.
Blessings,
Jamye
they have that as a goal of their keeping their kids home. But I think it
really depends on the family. If it is important to us to see that our
children interact with various people it is not too hard to see that it
happens. Since unschooling kids are in real life situations more than ps kids
I would say it doesn't have to be a problem at all.
We've been fortunate enough to take several trips. To Mexico, to Singapore, and
we are currently living in China. We definitely aren't too segregationist. We
get to learn about a lot of different ways of thinking and living.
For some people it would be a bit harder based on where you live. But still I
think there are lots of ways to "strew" things in our children's path that will
give them a broader perspective.
Blessings,
Jamye
Robyn Coburn
<<<<but only served to isolate and segregate people into sub groups more and
he thought that wasn't a good thing. I found this to be an interesting
perspective and one I hadn't heard before and really had nothing to say in
reply. He continued to comment that sure school might be hell but it
prepares you for the hell of real life (ok his bias there) and I have heard
this one before and don't agree... but what do you think about the thought
that homeshooling is segregationist?>>>>
There are undoubtedly some families out there who are homeschooling in order
to facilitate isolating their children from other people for whatever
reason. I don't know whether they are the majority or not.
I only know that for my family, that is not something we aspire to, although
it may be a temporary situation while Jayn is young and still discovering
her own passions. I mean that she is not taking classes at community
college, or seeking part-time work at this stage in her life. Her life and
activities do revolve around her family and nearest friends.
The first thing that I did upon choosing to be a homeschooler when Jayn was
about a year old, was join some online lists. The next thing was to join a
newly formed (when Jayn was 18 months old) local inclusive support group. My
group has many people of different faiths, industry affiliations, family
sizes and homeschooling styles. Our *only* commonality is home schooling.
People put themselves into networks, seeking like minded folk, or people
with like goals. Some of the networks I have been/are involved in are (in no
particular order): my local homeschoolers group; unschoolers; women
professionals in the film industry who are my friends (from before I had
Jayn); associates of my husband who are part of my new career as a
screenwriter; theater people locally, in Texas and back in Australia; the
people in my building who are my neighbors.
I think actually being segregated from society means a lot of hard work to
accomplish. It might be easier if you kept your children in the house,
sitting around a table mimicking a classroom. That doesn't sound like
unschooling. Jayn pretty much comes with me whenever I go out for any reason
including the rare occasions when I work outside of my home office.
On the other hand, I do actively seek out homeschooled kids for her to play
with most of the time, mostly because there is a greater culture of freedom,
no school propaganda or toxic behaviors for either of us to deal with, and I
don't have to listen to parental school bashing conversations (a sinkhole of
misery waiting to trap the unwary not unlike the delicious sin of gossip).
We have a couple of families that are schoolers that Jayn likes the kids. I
think the mothers don't tell me their school stories anymore, because I
always say, "You have another choice."
I feel pity that this man feels that his real life is hell. I think he may
be sprouting platitudes instead of really thinking it through, by suggesting
that school and life have much in common actually. "Surviving hell" is not
something to pass on to our children as a life goal, IMO.
Nothing conclusive, just some thoughts sparked.
Robyn L. Coburn
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he thought that wasn't a good thing. I found this to be an interesting
perspective and one I hadn't heard before and really had nothing to say in
reply. He continued to comment that sure school might be hell but it
prepares you for the hell of real life (ok his bias there) and I have heard
this one before and don't agree... but what do you think about the thought
that homeshooling is segregationist?>>>>
There are undoubtedly some families out there who are homeschooling in order
to facilitate isolating their children from other people for whatever
reason. I don't know whether they are the majority or not.
I only know that for my family, that is not something we aspire to, although
it may be a temporary situation while Jayn is young and still discovering
her own passions. I mean that she is not taking classes at community
college, or seeking part-time work at this stage in her life. Her life and
activities do revolve around her family and nearest friends.
The first thing that I did upon choosing to be a homeschooler when Jayn was
about a year old, was join some online lists. The next thing was to join a
newly formed (when Jayn was 18 months old) local inclusive support group. My
group has many people of different faiths, industry affiliations, family
sizes and homeschooling styles. Our *only* commonality is home schooling.
People put themselves into networks, seeking like minded folk, or people
with like goals. Some of the networks I have been/are involved in are (in no
particular order): my local homeschoolers group; unschoolers; women
professionals in the film industry who are my friends (from before I had
Jayn); associates of my husband who are part of my new career as a
screenwriter; theater people locally, in Texas and back in Australia; the
people in my building who are my neighbors.
I think actually being segregated from society means a lot of hard work to
accomplish. It might be easier if you kept your children in the house,
sitting around a table mimicking a classroom. That doesn't sound like
unschooling. Jayn pretty much comes with me whenever I go out for any reason
including the rare occasions when I work outside of my home office.
On the other hand, I do actively seek out homeschooled kids for her to play
with most of the time, mostly because there is a greater culture of freedom,
no school propaganda or toxic behaviors for either of us to deal with, and I
don't have to listen to parental school bashing conversations (a sinkhole of
misery waiting to trap the unwary not unlike the delicious sin of gossip).
We have a couple of families that are schoolers that Jayn likes the kids. I
think the mothers don't tell me their school stories anymore, because I
always say, "You have another choice."
I feel pity that this man feels that his real life is hell. I think he may
be sprouting platitudes instead of really thinking it through, by suggesting
that school and life have much in common actually. "Surviving hell" is not
something to pass on to our children as a life goal, IMO.
Nothing conclusive, just some thoughts sparked.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Fetteroll
on 6/22/04 12:21 AM, Sherri-Lee Pressman at s-lp@... wrote:
they'll generally return the greeting. If you greet a (schooled) kid,
especially teens, they'll often not respond or respond awkwardly because to
schooled kids life is segregated by age and you don't socialize much beyond
your grade.
Schooled kids are *more* segregated *more* isolated than people out in the
real world. Schooled kids have their own little societies limited by age,
with their own social rules (what's acceptable to wear, to listen to, to
watch, to like).
As an adult and my daughter as a homeschooler we get to relate to people
based on shared interests.
If someone has learned that lesson well, it's going to be hard to see that
there are other ways to view and live life!
Isn't it better to learn that life is what you make it? That if something
isn't right in your life that you have the power to change it?
That's a hard lesson to learn in school where you're told to sit down, shut
up and do what the experts tell you is best.
Joyce
> only served to isolate and segregate people into sub groups more and heIf you smile or say hi to an adult you don't know (at least in a small town)
> thought that wasn't a good thing
they'll generally return the greeting. If you greet a (schooled) kid,
especially teens, they'll often not respond or respond awkwardly because to
schooled kids life is segregated by age and you don't socialize much beyond
your grade.
Schooled kids are *more* segregated *more* isolated than people out in the
real world. Schooled kids have their own little societies limited by age,
with their own social rules (what's acceptable to wear, to listen to, to
watch, to like).
As an adult and my daughter as a homeschooler we get to relate to people
based on shared interests.
> school might be hell but it prepares you for the hell of real lifeSo that people can learn early that life sucks then you die?
If someone has learned that lesson well, it's going to be hard to see that
there are other ways to view and live life!
Isn't it better to learn that life is what you make it? That if something
isn't right in your life that you have the power to change it?
That's a hard lesson to learn in school where you're told to sit down, shut
up and do what the experts tell you is best.
Joyce
liannemargaret
--- In [email protected], Kimberly Fry
<kimber_fry@y...> wrote:
segregated by grade and all students in each grade are the same age
with maybe one years difference.
students. There are also the ADD/ADHD kids and many other labels when
you get into special education. Each of these groups has their own
teacher. Even the average kids are divided up based on ability level.
might be going to college. The students are put into the track when
they enter high school. So you have college prep diplomas and a basic
or general diploma, and it's not at all the same thing.
In my unschooling approach, I gave in to my son's demands to go to
school for JK.
I had faith it wouldn't last, and it took him less than 2 1/4 hours
over 3 4-day weeks (I made him "skip") to realize he didn't want to be
there.
During this time, he learned to bite, kick, spit, watch the "teacher"
for when it he could get away with this behaviour, sexism ("only boys
can use this ladder") and racism ("we don't like _those_ kids") [He
was also taught he "doesn't colour properly", but that's another story!]
My point is, school not only segregates, it teaches further segregation.
So now, I segregate. We do not actively seek out playdates with
schooled kids, and when it does happen (cousins, etc) I make sure I'm
aware of what's said, as well as what they are doing.
Lianne
mum to Wolf (6.8.99)
surrogate to be
<kimber_fry@y...> wrote:
>the ones that segregate into the sub groups. First, students are
> I would respond that the schools, public and generally private, are
segregated by grade and all students in each grade are the same age
with maybe one years difference.
>(grouped according to ability), and the remedial or learning disabled
> Then, you have the smart or gifted students, the average students
students. There are also the ADD/ADHD kids and many other labels when
you get into special education. Each of these groups has their own
teacher. Even the average kids are divided up based on ability level.
>sometimes nearly impossible, to get out of that track.
> Once a student is in a specific track. It is very difficult,
>not in elementary and junior high they performed well enough that they
> In high schools here students are tracked according to whether or
might be going to college. The students are put into the track when
they enter high school. So you have college prep diplomas and a basic
or general diploma, and it's not at all the same thing.
>****************************
In my unschooling approach, I gave in to my son's demands to go to
school for JK.
I had faith it wouldn't last, and it took him less than 2 1/4 hours
over 3 4-day weeks (I made him "skip") to realize he didn't want to be
there.
During this time, he learned to bite, kick, spit, watch the "teacher"
for when it he could get away with this behaviour, sexism ("only boys
can use this ladder") and racism ("we don't like _those_ kids") [He
was also taught he "doesn't colour properly", but that's another story!]
My point is, school not only segregates, it teaches further segregation.
So now, I segregate. We do not actively seek out playdates with
schooled kids, and when it does happen (cousins, etc) I make sure I'm
aware of what's said, as well as what they are doing.
Lianne
mum to Wolf (6.8.99)
surrogate to be
Dana Matt
we were talking
kids would be exposed daily to colors from pink-necked
all the way to bright red-necked. Where's the
diversity there?
Almost daily we go hang out with friends, go shopping,
go to the park, go to the library....Where people are
all ages and *aren't* 100% rural white. Your friend's
logic is flawed. I've never been to a school where
kids weren't segregated by their neighborhood, their
age within 9 months, and their "ability" level.
Dana
in Montana
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> and homeschooling came up and he said he thought itIn my "school district", it is 100% rural white. My
> was a good idea, but only served to isolate and
> segregate people into sub groups more and he thought
> that wasn't a good thing.
kids would be exposed daily to colors from pink-necked
all the way to bright red-necked. Where's the
diversity there?
Almost daily we go hang out with friends, go shopping,
go to the park, go to the library....Where people are
all ages and *aren't* 100% rural white. Your friend's
logic is flawed. I've never been to a school where
kids weren't segregated by their neighborhood, their
age within 9 months, and their "ability" level.
Dana
in Montana
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Sylvia Toyama
but what do you think about the thought that homeshooling is segregationist?
***
Well, speaking as someone who attended a public high school where 87% of the students were white, while the statewide figure is that whites are a minority, I had to laugh! My public school days were very segregated, and that was in the 70's.
Sure, in more recent years my son had a more diverse circle of friends and classmates in public school than I did, but that was more about us and our family style than about public school. Of course, my perspective is different because my kids' family is like the UN. My dh is Asian-American, so our kids are hapa (half). My Dad's second current wife is African-American. His last wife (who was close to my oldest son) is Isreali -- Dad converted to Judaism when he married her. In our homeschool circles, there's quite a bit of diversity -- other multi-ethnic families like ours, hispanic, African-American, friends from two or three different pueblos, and neighbors who are diverse. The same is true of our area LaLeche groupl It's not just racial diversity, either -- we also have friends all over the religious spectrum, and of varying income levels.
I do think segregation might be an issue in fundamental Christian homeschooling circles, but likely those parents would control their children's contacts anyway.
Syl
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***
Well, speaking as someone who attended a public high school where 87% of the students were white, while the statewide figure is that whites are a minority, I had to laugh! My public school days were very segregated, and that was in the 70's.
Sure, in more recent years my son had a more diverse circle of friends and classmates in public school than I did, but that was more about us and our family style than about public school. Of course, my perspective is different because my kids' family is like the UN. My dh is Asian-American, so our kids are hapa (half). My Dad's second current wife is African-American. His last wife (who was close to my oldest son) is Isreali -- Dad converted to Judaism when he married her. In our homeschool circles, there's quite a bit of diversity -- other multi-ethnic families like ours, hispanic, African-American, friends from two or three different pueblos, and neighbors who are diverse. The same is true of our area LaLeche groupl It's not just racial diversity, either -- we also have friends all over the religious spectrum, and of varying income levels.
I do think segregation might be an issue in fundamental Christian homeschooling circles, but likely those parents would control their children's contacts anyway.
Syl
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Jennifer Altenbach
My thoughts are that there is no better way to segregate children than
to put them in a classroom with 30 other children of the same age and
one or two adults all day. Unschoolers, and many homeschoolers, are out
in the community with everyone else, and IMO school doesn't resemble
real life at all. School segregates (people, time, learning),
unschooling integrates.
Jenny
<<but what do you think about the thought that homeshooling is
segregationist?>>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to put them in a classroom with 30 other children of the same age and
one or two adults all day. Unschoolers, and many homeschoolers, are out
in the community with everyone else, and IMO school doesn't resemble
real life at all. School segregates (people, time, learning),
unschooling integrates.
Jenny
<<but what do you think about the thought that homeshooling is
segregationist?>>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sherri-Lee Pressman
Thanks to everyone who responded to this post. Most of you said what I was thinking and it was good to hear. I never thought of it as segregationist at all.. and definately see ps as being VERY much so.
Thanks for your thoughts, it has helped me to articulate myself better,
Sherri-Lee
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks for your thoughts, it has helped me to articulate myself better,
Sherri-Lee
Looking for safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]