Ren Allen

~<<<<<<<<< I was raised pretty much the same way I am raising them,
and I was
NEVER afraid of my parents. I'm not blind, I see my parents for who
they
are, faults and all (which is why my children aren't being raised
exactly
the same), but I love and respect them deeply. >>>>

Yet this suggests that you are willing, even desirous, of embracing
your
parents' faults or parenting defects - repeating their mistakes
along with
their positive ideas as if you have no other choice but to take all
or
nothing.>>>>>

I read this ten times and kept reading "*are* being raised exactly
the
same"..........~


Yes, but Robyn, she said she's raising her kids the same way, then
said she isn't!! So I'm glad you questioned it.

Maybe if Yolanda comes back she can shed some light on that
seemingly contradictory claim. I was going "huh?"

Ren

averyschmidt

> ~<<<<<<<<< I was raised pretty much the same way I am raising
them,
> and I was
> NEVER afraid of my parents. I'm not blind, I see my parents for
who
> they
> are, faults and all (which is why my children aren't being raised
> exactly
> the same), but I love and respect them deeply. >>>>

> Yes, but Robyn, she said she's raising her kids the same way, then
> said she isn't!! So I'm glad you questioned it.

> Maybe if Yolanda comes back she can shed some light on that
> seemingly contradictory claim. I was going "huh?"

Hmm. I don't see "pretty much the same" and "not exactly the same"
to be contradictory at all. "Pretty much" and "not exactly"
actually seems rather synonomous to me. The former focuses on the
many similarities and the latter focuses on the few differences.

Patti

Ren Allen

""Pretty much" and "not exactly"
actually seems rather synonomous to me. "

Perhaps. It seems strange to me, to defend the way your parents raised
you and then say you aren't raising your kids the same.

I don't think someone claiming they were spanked and they NEVER feared
their parents is being totally honest. I don't care how much you love
your parents and how great they are, it's scary to get hit.

Ren

[email protected]

<<I don't think someone claiming they were spanked and they NEVER feared their parents is being totally honest.>>

I was spanked. I don't remember ever fearing my parents. I remember not wanting to get spanked but I don't remember feeling afraid about it. Probably because I wasn't spanked "on the cuff". If I got a spanking, I was really pushing it and my parents had tried other ways of handling things first.

I do not think spanking is a good idea but I wouldn't necessarily classify it as abuse. I have worked with abused kids. A nine month old with a cigarette burn to their arm because they cried when hungry trumps a 5yo who got a swap to the behind when he was unable to calm himself and the mom was stressed. But yeah, spanking is lower-level parenting and it will get in the way of unschooling.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
Date: Sunday, December 11, 2005 4:11 pm
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] My bad...

> ""Pretty much" and "not exactly"
> actually seems rather synonomous to me. "
>
> Perhaps. It seems strange to me, to defend the way your parents
> raised
> you and then say you aren't raising your kids the same.
>
> I don't think someone claiming they were spanked and they NEVER
> feared
> their parents is being totally honest. I don't care how much you
> love
> your parents and how great they are, it's scary to get hit.
>
> Ren
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
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>

Robyn Coburn

<<<<< I do not think spanking is a good idea but I wouldn't necessarily
classify it as abuse. I have worked with abused kids. A nine month old
with a cigarette burn to their arm because they cried when hungry trumps a
5yo who got a swap to the behind when he was unable to calm himself and the
mom was stressed. But yeah, spanking is lower-level parenting and it will
get in the way of unschooling. >>>>>

This reminds of a discussion that my post grad Women in Film class (14 years
ago) had talking about where abuse and sexism begins. The consensus was that
it began very trivially with sexist jokes. Obviously it would be ridiculous
to define a person who cracked sexist jokes as an abuser in comparison to a
rapist or molester or wife beater, but still jokes are the beginning of a
broader cultural acceptance of all but those most overt and serious examples
of the abuse of women.

Until as a society we make the leap of choosing to define spanking as abuse,
the relatively lesser end of it compared to the undeniable horrors that
Julie has seen, it will continue to be accepted. Maybe it is because she has
seen horrors that swatting looks so minor in comparison. But it is part of
the same continuum.

Again I refer people to Alice Miller's writing. She speaks of the
anti-spanking laws enacted in Scandinavia, against an outcry of a vocal
minority, and how these have apparently led to the reduction of all kinds of
child abuse over the culturally brief span of only 20 years.

Here are some more places for her writing, which continues to be really
compelling (in a good way):

http://www.naturalchild.com/alice_miller/ (the Hitler reference included
here)

http://www.nospank.net/milindex.htm (many articles including something as
recent as September 2005)

Robyn L. Coburn


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Ren Allen

"I do not think spanking is a good idea but I wouldn't necessarily
classify it as
abuse."

I think there are degrees of abuse. Control of another human, even
subtle control is abuse of their spirit. It's not even close to
severe emotional abuse, nor does it cause the same kind of damage,
but it's still an abuse.
I feel the same way about spanking. It's abusive, but depending on
the way it's used, it can be pretty mildly abusive, or extremely
abusive.
I spanked, so I'm not pointing fingers at others, while not
examining my own behavior.

If there are spanked children that aren't fearful of their parents,
then how would the spanking work to control them? That doesn't make
any sense to me.
I know how many times I snuck, because I was fearful of punishment.
As a child, I feared the punishment not my parents in my own mind.
As an adult, I can look back and see that it's the same thing.

Ren

beanmommy2

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@c...> wrote:

> If there are spanked children that aren't fearful of their
parents,
> then how would the spanking work to control them? That doesn't
make
> any sense to me.


I think a LOT of time the spankings don't "work," but it makes
parents feel like they're in control and that they "did their job."

A couple years ago, back when I had one baby, I was out with a
friend who had a two and four year old. (Which is what I have now.)
She and her husband actually teach a parenting class, and it was
amusing for me to watch how she did things.

For example, I had brought a banana for my baby, and when we arrive
and I set it down on the table, the mom said to the two year
old, "Don't touch that banana!" and of course the girl touched it,
and then she was "disobedient."

At some point the mom took her out to the car to "give her a
slipper." (She spanks them with a slipper and does not use the word
spank.) I wasn't even sure what the offense was ... I think just
general disobedience like touching bananas and things.

But what I thought was really interesting was toward the end of our
meal, the two year old girl deliberately tossed her spoon up into
the air and let it fall loudly on the table. Then she smiled at me
and said, "Now I'm going to get another spanking!"

The mom said, "Yes, you're right!"

I thought that was an interesting commentary on the girl's opinion
of spankings and the effect it had on her behavior.

Jenny

Joyce Fetteroll

On Dec 11, 2005, at 5:11 PM, Ren Allen wrote:

> I don't think someone claiming they were spanked and they NEVER feared
> their parents is being totally honest. I don't care how much you love
> your parents and how great they are, it's scary to get hit.

I can remember being spanked once and it didn't make me afraid. It
made me pissed. Looking back I can understand why my mother did it --
which doesn't mean I agree, just understand -- but from my point of
view it was totally the wrong thing to do and, therefore since it was
my behavior she was trying to change, totally ineffective. In fact it
made it worse.

If I recall right my mother was washing our hair and I was poking at/
towards my sister's eyes with a rat tail comb. I didn't (at the time)
like my sister much! She was an intrusion on my onlinesss. (I was 3.5
when she was born.) She was an irritant in my life and to get spanked
because I was reacting to the fact that she was an irritant only made
me dislike her even more.

It really really helps to see how the world looks to the child rather
than how you're trying to get your child to view the world. Spanking
a child may make sense from an adult point of view, but children are
seeing it completely differently. Though I know I never poked at my
sister's eyes with a rat tail comb again, I'm sure I did lots of
other more subtle things because 1) the spanking didn't change why
I'd poked at her in the first place and 2) gave me another reason to
think of her as an irritant.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Dec 12, 2005, at 5:45 AM, jnjstau@... wrote:

>
> I do not think spanking is a good idea but I wouldn't necessarily
> classify it as abuse.

I feel sort of like I was "abused" even by the fear I had of my
friend's father who spanked HER with a belt that he kept hanging in a
hallway. I had nightmares about him.

I was NEVER spanked - never threatened. I was never punished, never
grounded, never had anything "taken away." I was sent to my room to
calm down, take a break or give my mom a break or to separate my
sisters and I when we were having problems getting along.

I remember the day, the moment, when I suddenly all at ONCE
understood that "THE BELT" was actually in fact in REAL LIFE used on
my friend. We were about 8 years old and in her room and her mother
poked her head in the door and said that we should get the mess
cleaned up because her daddy was home. My friend said, "He'll
probably get the belt to me if he sees my room like this." I remember
that suddenly I could picture that belt, hanging in the hallway and I
felt sick and sort of faint. I helped clean up as fast as I could and
got out of the house. After that I never wanted to play IN her house
again. Sometime after that she showed me that her dad had a tarantula
in a jar in the garage. Then I had nightmares that involved a HUGE
belt that turned into tarantulas.

I mentioned this to my sister one day not too long ago (she was
friends with my friend's little sister) and she said she was
TERRIFIED of their father, too.

He never threatened us in any way - this was ALL because we were
completely totally shocked by the very IDEA of this man using a belt
to hit our little friends.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<<Maybe it is because she has seen horrors that swatting looks minor in comparison. But it is part of the same continuum.>>

I agree that it is a continuum. I think there is great parenting, good parenting, ok parenting, poor parenting, bad parenting and abuse. I think most of us move around on that continuum throughout each day, at least a little. I know that sometimes I'm a great parent but not all day, every day, even though I would like to be.

But I don't think the behavior of the parent is necessarily the sole determining factor of where you are on the continuum. I have seen parents swat a child because said child was harrassing another child and wouldn't stop it. Parents swatted child A to protect child B. Not great parenting but I can't call that abuse.

I personally knew (when I worked as a therapist) a family who were illegally in this country and therefore scared to ask for help. Their 8yo son was completely out of control, running the streets at night, taking off, physically attacking family members. The parents tied him to a tree in an attempt to keep him at home, as safe as possible. They didn't know what else to do but were trying to keep him from injuring himself or someone else. Not great parenting but not abuse. (He was later placed in a psychiatric hospital where he was restrained by physician order.)

I have seen parents swat a child because that child touched something the parent didn't want them to touch. No discussion, no talking, just a swat. I would consider that much closer to abuse.

I know a family, personally, where the father never raised a hand to his children, never even raised his voice. But with the slow, steady use of his "loving and rational" voice (much like Chinese water torture)has convinced all 8 of his children that he alone is capable of making decisions for the family. He chooses their friends, activities, even their husbands. The younger kids won't even eat food he doesn't like himself. In my mind, he is quite abusive but has never spoke to his children in anything but a calm and "loving" manner.

I think you have to look at the entire context, what was going on, what was the parent's intent, had other methods at least been attempted, was someone else being hurt, etc.. I just don't think it is as simple as a swat equals abuse.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: Robyn Coburn <dezigna@...>
Date: Monday, December 12, 2005 8:41 am
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] My bad...

> <<<<< I do not think spanking is a good idea but I wouldn't
> necessarilyclassify it as abuse. I have worked with abused kids.
> A nine month old
> with a cigarette burn to their arm because they cried when hungry
> trumps a
> 5yo who got a swap to the behind when he was unable to calm
> himself and the
> mom was stressed. But yeah, spanking is lower-level parenting and
> it will
> get in the way of unschooling. >>>>>
>
> This reminds of a discussion that my post grad Women in Film class
> (14 years
> ago) had talking about where abuse and sexism begins. The
> consensus was that
> it began very trivially with sexist jokes. Obviously it would be
> ridiculousto define a person who cracked sexist jokes as an abuser
> in comparison to a
> rapist or molester or wife beater, but still jokes are the
> beginning of a
> broader cultural acceptance of all but those most overt and
> serious examples
> of the abuse of women.
>
> Until as a society we make the leap of choosing to define spanking
> as abuse,
> the relatively lesser end of it compared to the undeniable horrors
> thatJulie has seen, it will continue to be accepted. Maybe it is
> because she has
> seen horrors that swatting looks so minor in comparison. But it is
> part of
> the same continuum.
>
> Again I refer people to Alice Miller's writing. She speaks of the
> anti-spanking laws enacted in Scandinavia, against an outcry of a
> vocalminority, and how these have apparently led to the reduction
> of all kinds of
> child abuse over the culturally brief span of only 20 years.
>
> Here are some more places for her writing, which continues to be
> reallycompelling (in a good way):
>
> http://www.naturalchild.com/alice_miller/ (the Hitler reference
> includedhere)
>
> http://www.nospank.net/milindex.htm (many articles including
> something as
> recent as September 2005)
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
>
>
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> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/197 - Release Date:
> 12/9/2005
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
> ~-->
> Give at-risk students the materials they need to succeed at
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>
>
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[email protected]

<<As an adult, I can look back and see that it is the same thing.>>

That is interesting. It isn't the same thing in my mind.

<<If there are spanked children that aren't fearful of their parents, how would spanking control them?>>

I can't speak for others, but for me it was because it hurt. The spanking itself hurt. Same way a mother dog nips at her pup or a cat swats a kitten across the nose. The behavior itself physically hurts for a bit.

I tend to avoid going for dental work because it hurts. I'm not afraid of the dentist as a person.

Anyway, not defending spanking as a high-level parenting skill. But I just don't have the same emotional response to it that some others seem to.

The few times I remember being spanked, I was WAY over the line. I was being abusive to others. If an adult acted as I did those times, I would be surprised if someone didn't hit them. I'm not saying that my parents did the best possible thing, but that they did an understandable thing.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
Date: Monday, December 12, 2005 9:19 am
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] My bad...

> "I do not think spanking is a good idea but I wouldn't necessarily
> classify it as
> abuse."
>
> I think there are degrees of abuse. Control of another human, even
> subtle control is abuse of their spirit. It's not even close to
> severe emotional abuse, nor does it cause the same kind of damage,
> but it's still an abuse.
> I feel the same way about spanking. It's abusive, but depending on
> the way it's used, it can be pretty mildly abusive, or extremely
> abusive.
> I spanked, so I'm not pointing fingers at others, while not
> examining my own behavior.
>
> If there are spanked children that aren't fearful of their
> parents,
> then how would the spanking work to control them? That doesn't
> make
> any sense to me.
> I know how many times I snuck, because I was fearful of
> punishment.
> As a child, I feared the punishment not my parents in my own mind.
> As an adult, I can look back and see that it's the same thing.
>
> Ren
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
> ~-->
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Ren Allen

"I can't speak for others, but for me it was because it hurt. The
spanking
itself hurt. Same way a mother dog nips at her pup or a cat swats a
kitten
across the nose. The behavior itself physically hurts for a bit."

Then FEAR of pain is what does it right?
And if the parent is inflicting that pain, it IS a type of fear of the
parent, whether the child realizes it or not.

Ren

averyschmidt

> I think you have to look at the entire context, what was going on,
what was the parent's intent, had other methods at least been
attempted, was someone else being hurt, etc.. I just don't think it
is as simple as a swat equals abuse.

I agree with everything you said about context and parenting
continuums and so forth. But I just wanted to say that the use of the
word "swat" seems to purposely (but maybe unconsciously?) minimize
what's really happening. If a man struck his wife it would never be
downplayed as "just a swat" and not equalling abuse.

Patti

Daniel MacIntyre

I hate to compare spankings to torture, but this is SO reminding me of an
essay I read a long time ago about "questionable" questioning practices.

Paraphrasing what I remember:

Pain is not what breaks down the barriers. People willingly put themselves
through painful experiences all the time. Pain is natural - pain doesn't
stop people from working out, having babies or performing acts of heroism in
times of emergency. FEAR of pain is what breaks people. As such the actual
pain is more a teaching tool than anything else. For full effect, time is
allotted before and after sessions for the prisoner to contemplate what will
happen as well as to fully appreciate what has happened. As with any
teaching moment, as many of the senses as possible should be involved. what
the prisoner sees, hears and smells is just as important to the process as
the actual pain inflicted.

I guess this compares to a lot of punishments.

On the opposite side of the issue is current trends for training pets. The
animal trainers I have spoken to or heard on tv talking about the issue are
pretty much in agreement about the best way to get the behaviors they want
from the animals they are training. Basically, positive reinforcement is
what is currently in vogue.

Of course, some people may object to the idea of "training" your kids like
animals (I know I do). My guess is the unschooling way of raising civilized
children is as follows:


1. Respect your children as people (because they are :) ).
2. Model the behavior you would like to see them emulate (this means
if YOU don't say "please" and "thank you" when you are dealing with people -
say at burger king getting a meal or having your groceries bagged - don't
expect them to).
3. Model REAL behaviors. Fake politeness is obvious - even to
children. If you wouldn't expect an adult to behave that way, why would you
expect it of your children. You are raising them to be ADULTS, right?
4. Provide necessary resources - let them know what is expected ahead
of time. Getting upset because they didn't behave in a way they didn't know
they were supposed to is just silly.

Of course, I could be wrong. Usually, I just muddle through the issues as
they arise. It seems to work so far.

On 12/13/05, Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> "I can't speak for others, but for me it was because it hurt. The
> spanking
> itself hurt. Same way a mother dog nips at her pup or a cat swats a
> kitten
> across the nose. The behavior itself physically hurts for a bit."
>
> Then FEAR of pain is what does it right?
> And if the parent is inflicting that pain, it IS a type of fear of the
> parent, whether the child realizes it or not.
>
> Ren
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Daniel
( Blogging at http://key-words.blogspot.com/ )


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<<...it IS a type of fear of the parent, whether the child realizes it or not>>>

Ren, I respect that this is your experience. It has not been mine.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
Date: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 8:13 am
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] My bad...

> "I can't speak for others, but for me it was because it hurt. The
> spanking
> itself hurt. Same way a mother dog nips at her pup or a cat swats
> a
> kitten
> across the nose. The behavior itself physically hurts for a bit."
>
> Then FEAR of pain is what does it right?
> And if the parent is inflicting that pain, it IS a type of fear of
> the
> parent, whether the child realizes it or not.
>
> Ren
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
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>
>
>
>

[email protected]

<<"just a swat">>

You will notice that I never said "just a...." anything. I used the swat to describe a single hit with the open hand,not with full force, to the seat of the pants. I simply thought it was a word that accurately described what happened.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: averyschmidt <patti.schmidt2@...>
Date: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 8:26 am
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] My bad...

> > I think you have to look at the entire context, what was going
> on,
> what was the parent's intent, had other methods at least been
> attempted, was someone else being hurt, etc.. I just don't think
> it
> is as simple as a swat equals abuse.
>
> I agree with everything you said about context and parenting
> continuums and so forth. But I just wanted to say that the use of
> the
> word "swat" seems to purposely (but maybe unconsciously?) minimize
> what's really happening. If a man struck his wife it would never
> be
> downplayed as "just a swat" and not equalling abuse.
>
> Patti
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
> ~-->
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>

Rod Thomas

<<<I was NEVER spanked - never threatened. I was never punished, never
grounded, never had anything "taken away.">>>


Pamela S.

I walked in on my son the other day, and he had his laser pen (class
III, <5mw) and was shining it in his eye. It was only brief but scared
me.

Do you believe I should not take it away. If so, how would you handle
this?

It seems that on a google search I read the danger has been exaggerated,
but not sure.

flyerkat

averyschmidt

> <<"just a swat">>
>
> You will notice that I never said "just a...." anything. I used the
swat to describe a single hit with the open hand,not with full force,
to the seat of the pants. I simply thought it was a word that
accurately described what happened.

I realize that, I didn't mean to imply that you personally used that
word. I was making a general statement about the mental shift that
occurs when we call hitting another person a "swat." It seems to me
that the "just" part is implicit, especially in the context in which
you used it to compare it to more severe forms of abuse. Whether it's
a strike, a blow, a spank, a swat, or a tap the message is still the
same- I'm bigger than you and I have the power to hurt you if you
don't do what I say.

Patti

Robyn Coburn

<<<< I walked in on my son the other day, and he had his laser pen (class
III, <5mw) and was shining it in his eye. It was only brief but scared
me.

Do you believe I should not take it away. If so, how would you handle
this?>>>>>

I'm not Pam, but we do have several laser pens and my dh collects LED
flashlights some of which are phenomenally more bright than an ordinary
flashlight (including mass market led lights). Jayn often plays with lights.
We have told Jayn several times that shining it in her or anyone else's eyes
is dangerous.

At times if the play involves waving the lasers or flashlights around, and
we remind her of that. If she is in a contrary mood, and gets a kind of
mischief expression on her face, I have said that she may not use dh's
flashlights unless she is willing to be careful with them and not shine them
at people's eyes including her own.

However the removal, *if* it ensues, is only for that moment. There is no
arbitrary "punishment" time limit (I think they actually are calling that
"grounded from" whatever the object or activity is these days).

Also in those instances I see Jayn's refusal to play safely, or desire to be
a bit wild more as a sign that she wants a different game anyway.

In terms of your son, Flyerkat, I believe that he is a teen or close. Share
the research that you have done with him, especially if there is debate in
different circles. It's a great opportunity to talk about the idea of being
critical when seeking information, and to use multiple sources.

Robyn L. Coburn

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[email protected]

>>I walked in on my son the other day, and he had his laser pen (class
III, <5mw) and was shining it in his eye. It was only brief but scared
me.

Do you believe I should not take it away. If so, how would you handle
this?>>

I'm not Pam but I'll give you my input too if that's okay. :o)

First of all, how old is your son and how long has he had the laser pen? Have you talked with him about the dangers it presents if shined directly in the eye?

I would not rush in a take the pen away, but I would have a calm, gentle and *serious* talk with him about using it safely. I'd let him know I was worried for his eyesight and so glad he was still okay. I'd try to find out what he was trying to experience by shining it in his eyes. I'd find out if it hurt him and if he thought he wanted to do it again.

Depending on his age and maturity level, you can decide together how to handle the pen from then on. Mayb you can be with him when he uses it. Or maybe the talk will be more than enough to keep him from using it inappropriately again. Maybe he'd like some of those trick glasses they sell this time of year to make the Christmas lights take on a star or halo effect. Find some cool ways to play with light that are safe.

Be creative. Be gentle. Be his ally.

--
~Mary, unschooling mom to Conor (16) and Casey (11)

"Just today I'm going to be utterly present for my children, I'm going to be in their world (not just doing my own thing while they do theirs), I'm going to really hear them, I'm going to prepare myself to be present starting right now."
~Ren Allen




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rod Thomas

He is 12 and he knows the risks, we've had the talk. Why would he do
this in spite of the risk.? Was he just curious? I'm baffled, and
pissed.

On the other hand, if they were THAT dangerous, why would they be on
sale everywhere to anyone? Has anyone heard of eye damage from this? I
don't get it.

PS I did take it away immediately and he still wants it back.

Flyerkat

Angela

<<Pain is not what breaks down the barriers. People willingly put
themselves
through painful experiences all the time. Pain is natural - pain doesn't
stop people from working out, having babies or performing acts of heroism in
times of emergency. FEAR of pain is what breaks people.>>

At Thanksgiving my siblings and I (and our spouses) were recollecting some
of the bad things that happened to us in our childhoods. There were some
funny stories and some not so funny ones.

One of the things that came to mind for me was the time I got the belt for
beating up a neighborhood girl. I was ten years old and someone else
actually beat her up to get back at her for saying she was going to tell all
her friends to hate me. The only thing I did was cry in school and this
person felt bad for me and beat her up for me although I never asked her to
do so. The girl who got beaten up (not badly) was my childhood best friend.
(it was on and off for many years)

Word got back to my mother via my sister that I beat her up and I got the
belt. Or did I? I actually can't remember getting the belt. I remember
being told I was going to get the belt and I remember going to my room,
where I was sent to wait for it. I remember the fear I had waiting to get
the belt but I don't actually remember getting the belt.

I still apparently harbor some resentment over this issue. <g> I don't
remember trying to verbally stand up for myself. I remember knowing that I
wouldn't be believed. My mother came in the room during the end of the
conversation and someone laughingly mentioned it to her and she just said,
"there is nothing I can do about it now."

I love my mother and she was a good mother in many ways. If I could change
one thing about her I would change the fact that she has such a hard time
saying sorry. Sorry would have helped even 28 years later.

I've had bad days as a parent and not parented as well as I would have
liked. I have always apologized for my bad behavior afterward.

I think I got off track but I was just trying to agree that the pain wasn't
the issue so much as the fear of the pain to come. I was spanked. Not for
every minor offense but for me it was definitely about fear.

I have to say that it didn't actually work the way it was meant to because I
didn't behave any better, I just learned to be sneaky. My mother mentioned
at Thanksgiving that I had given her many of her gray hairs due to my
behavior as a teen. (Getting drunk and puking out the window, for one) I
got drunk as a teen a lot (escaping life, I think) and I never called my
mother to pick me up once. I wouldn't have ever dared to admit I was
drinking. I drove my moped smashed to the hilt. I rode with other drunk
teens. I thought it was cool that some kids could call their mothers and I
knew that one day I would be one of those moms because I would never want my
teen to be in the predicaments I got myself into without having some kind of
safe escape.

Gee, that was therapeutic. :)

Angela
game-enthusiast@...

Pamela Sorooshian

On Dec 13, 2005, at 7:51 AM, jnjstau@... wrote:

> You will notice that I never said "just a...." anything. I used
> the swat to describe a single hit with the open hand,not with full
> force, to the seat of the pants. I simply thought it was a word
> that accurately described what happened.


In my high school, boys got "swats" when they got into trouble. Girls
didn't.

The "swats" were given with a paddle by one of the boys physical
education teachers in a little office room with paper taped over the
window in the door. People would crowd around outside and listen -
you could hear the paddle whooshing through the air, that sound of it
hitting, and any cries or moans or other sounds made by the boy. I
listened once. I was SICKENED and thought very very poorly of that
teacher (he was the gymnastics coach) from then on.

I don't care what you call it, but find it interesting that those who
defend spanking often object strenuously to calling it "hitting." I
can't think of it as anything else other than what it is - an adult
hitting a child, hard enough to hurt, because the adult is unhappy
with something the child has done and because the adult can get away
with it because he/she is bigger. It is a demonstration of power -
the parent proves that he/she can inflict pain and thereby control
the child's behavior - the child better be good if he/she wants to
avoid having his/her loving parent inflict pain again.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Dec 13, 2005, at 2:40 PM, Rod Thomas wrote:

> He is 12 and he knows the risks, we've had the talk. Why would he do
> this in spite of the risk.? Was he just curious? I'm baffled, and
> pissed.
>
> On the other hand, if they were THAT dangerous, why would they be on
> sale everywhere to anyone? Has anyone heard of eye damage from
> this? I
> don't get it.
>
> PS I did take it away immediately and he still wants it back.

You seem to be set up as adversaries already - so I'd just forget
about the light thingy and concentrate on how to change your
relationship. You're not even sure if the thing DOES cause damage
and you're doubting that it does, but you're most DEFINITELY causing
damage to your relationship with your son by your behavior/response.

I don't think he believes you, first of all, that there is a risk.
YOU don't even really believe it - so why should he? AND he'd already
done it with no harmful effect.

So your question about why would he do this in spite of the risk is
beside the point.

If I was you, I'd give it back and say, "I'm sorry. My only excuse is
that I got scared because I'm not sure about the safety. I'm sorry I
overreacted and acted like I can't trust you to want to take care of
yourself. I know you aren't going to do something that you know would
damage your own eyesight, of course. What I should have done with my
concern is ask you to hold off on doing it until we found good
information about this so that you'd know for sure whether pointing
it into your eye was going to be harmful or not."

Here is some information I found:

****
Lasers are classified according to the maximal power output. Class 1
lasers (< 0.024 mW) are considered incapable of causing damage and
carry no warning label. Class 4 lasers (>500 mW) are dangerous
military, medical, or industrial lasers.

Laser pointers are class 3A (1 to 5 mW) and are required to carry a
warning cautioning users to avoid shining a laser pointer beam into
anyone's eye. But class 3A lasers are less dangerous than most people
think. The most well-supported risk estimate suggests that the retina
can theoretically be damaged if someone were to stare into the beam
for 10 seconds (Ophthalmology 1997; 104:1213).

This is nearly impossible to achieve. In this situation, 10 seconds
is nearly an eternity. The pupil, blink, and gaze-averting reflexes
stop significant exposures in less than 0.25 seconds. Even in the
office of an eye surgeon, with a chin rest, a target, and a machine
to aim the beam steadily, it is difficult to keep a beam on a single
spot for more than a few tenths of a second. So, a laser pointer in
mischievous hands carries no real risk for immediate or delayed
retinal damage.
*****






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

I wanted to add that you'd likely benefit a LOT from reading "The
Parent-Teen Breakthrough: A Relationship Approach," by Myra
Kirschenbaum.

-pam


On Dec 13, 2005, at 2:40 PM, Rod Thomas wrote:

> He is 12 and he knows the risks, we've had the talk. Why would he do
> this in spite of the risk.? Was he just curious? I'm baffled, and
> pissed.
>
> On the other hand, if they were THAT dangerous, why would they be on
> sale everywhere to anyone? Has anyone heard of eye damage from
> this? I
> don't get it.
>
> PS I did take it away immediately and he still wants it back.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

>>He is 12 and he knows the risks, we've had the talk. Why would he do
this in spite of the risk.? >>

Um...because he's 12? ;o) Lots of kids like to check things out for themselves even when it's risky. Our job is to help them understand why that's not the best way to approach research. <g> He may have momentarily forgotten the risk or mistakenly shined it in his eyes. What was his explanation?

>>I'm baffled, and pissed. >>

Life is so much better if you don't take this kind of stuff personally. He's 12. He screwed up. Don't stay pissed at him. Take a breath and remember that you just want what's best for him. Try to figure him out and work with him. You're heading into the teen years. If you set yourself up as his adversary rather than his ally, the next 8 years will be MUCH harder than they need to be for everyone.

>>PS I did take it away immediately and he still wants it back.>>

Have you talked about it? Does he understand your concerns? Do you want him to know that you trust him to make good decisions even though he's made a bad one in the past? I'd find a way to work it out together.

--
~Mary

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Rod Thomas" <rodneykathy@...>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rod Thomas

Different web sites report different risks. Depends on which one you go
to.

I had believed it was harmful because that's what I initially read on
the label. So that's what I told him.

<<<I'm sorry I overreacted and acted like I can't trust you to want to
take care of yourself. I know you aren't going to do something that you
know would damage your own eyesight, of course.>>>

No, he can't be trusted, because he DID do something that he knew could
cause him harm. His eyesight is at stake here. What if it really had
done damage the first time? Do you really think we can always trust
kids to do the right thing?

We looked it up together today, that's why we are no longer certain of
the risks. We were trying to decide what to do about possession. I
didn't freak out and snatch it. We put it away until we found out more
about it.

Adversaries? I think words like that can turn people off when looking
for advice.
I did get some other good replies.

flyerkat




-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pamela
Sorooshian
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 7:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] laser light, was Pam S


On Dec 13, 2005, at 2:40 PM, Rod Thomas wrote:

> He is 12 and he knows the risks, we've had the talk. Why would he do
> this in spite of the risk.? Was he just curious? I'm baffled, and
> pissed.
>
> On the other hand, if they were THAT dangerous, why would they be on
> sale everywhere to anyone? Has anyone heard of eye damage from
> this? I
> don't get it.
>
> PS I did take it away immediately and he still wants it back.

You seem to be set up as adversaries already - so I'd just forget
about the light thingy and concentrate on how to change your
relationship. You're not even sure if the thing DOES cause damage
and you're doubting that it does, but you're most DEFINITELY causing
damage to your relationship with your son by your behavior/response.

I don't think he believes you, first of all, that there is a risk.
YOU don't even really believe it - so why should he? AND he'd already
done it with no harmful effect.

So your question about why would he do this in spite of the risk is
beside the point.

If I was you, I'd give it back and say, "I'm sorry. My only excuse is
that I got scared because I'm not sure about the safety. What I should
have done with my
concern is ask you to hold off on doing it until we found good
information about this so that you'd know for sure whether pointing
it into your eye was going to be harmful or not."

Here is some information I found:

****
Lasers are classified according to the maximal power output. Class 1
lasers (< 0.024 mW) are considered incapable of causing damage and
carry no warning label. Class 4 lasers (>500 mW) are dangerous
military, medical, or industrial lasers.

Laser pointers are class 3A (1 to 5 mW) and are required to carry a
warning cautioning users to avoid shining a laser pointer beam into
anyone's eye. But class 3A lasers are less dangerous than most people
think. The most well-supported risk estimate suggests that the retina
can theoretically be damaged if someone were to stare into the beam
for 10 seconds (Ophthalmology 1997; 104:1213).

This is nearly impossible to achieve. In this situation, 10 seconds
is nearly an eternity. The pupil, blink, and gaze-averting reflexes
stop significant exposures in less than 0.25 seconds. Even in the
office of an eye surgeon, with a chin rest, a target, and a machine
to aim the beam steadily, it is difficult to keep a beam on a single
spot for more than a few tenths of a second. So, a laser pointer in
mischievous hands carries no real risk for immediate or delayed
retinal damage.
*****






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Yahoo! Groups Links

[email protected]

>>I wanted to add that you'd likely benefit a LOT from reading "The
Parent-Teen Breakthrough: A Relationship Approach," by Myra
Kirschenbaum.>>

Yes! I really liked this book. The best part was seeing that I was already approaching my kids in much the way that was suggested. As such, I could not relate at all with the descriptions of the trouble families. We don't have the tension that many families with teens seem to have.

--
~Mary, unschooling mom to Conor (16) and Casey (11)

"Just today I'm going to be utterly present for my children, I'm going to be in their world (not just doing my own thing while they do theirs), I'm going to really hear them, I'm going to prepare myself to be present starting right now."
~Ren Allen




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

>>No, he can't be trusted, because he DID do something that he knew could
cause him harm. >>

So that's it? He can't be trusted because of one bad decision?

And it DIDN'T cause him harm when you told him that it definitely would. Then you took the laser away, found info that it won't cause the harm you feared and yet you still aren't giving him back his toy.

I'm thinking this will cause trust issues between the two of you. Maybe not right away. But it's the little things that set the tone for the relationship we have with our teens. You told him of a risk that turned out to be blown way out of proportion. Now you're not backing down. If you want him to trust what you tell him, then you have to admit when you're wrong. He made a mistake, so did you. Learn from it together.

>>What if it really had done damage the first time?>>

But it didn't. And now you have the benefit of working through this without any harm done. That's a gift.

>>Do you really think we can always trust kids to do the right thing?>>

I think we can trust that kids want to keep themselves safe. They don't like pain and want to stay alive and whole. They want us to help them figure out the world and get experience in a safe and supportive way.

>>Adversaries? I think words like that can turn people off when looking
for advice.>>

Try looking at it from your son's point of view though. Do you think he feels like you're part of the same team if you're denying him something that belongs to him? When you're not willing to trust him to learn from mistakes?

And remember, we're not adversaries here on this list either. Each person gives the best answer they can based on their own experience. I've met Pam and her kids and they're pretty amazing. I listen to her parenting advice and take it to heart.

--
~Mary, unschooling mom to Conor (16) and Casey (11)

"Just today I'm going to be utterly present for my children, I'm going to be in their world (not just doing my own thing while they do theirs), I'm going to really hear them, I'm going to prepare myself to be present starting right now."
~Ren Allen




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

"No, he can't be trusted, because he DID do something that he knew
could
cause him harm. His eyesight is at stake here. What if it really had
done damage the first time? Do you really think we can always trust
kids to do the right thing?"

No, of course not...they NEED to experiment, and experimentation
isn't always safe.

Best case scenario, is when we see them doing something potentially
dangerous, we say "stop". Once the child has stopped we calmly and
and gently explain our position and ask them to stay safe. If they
can't, we intervene.

Jumping in and taking a possession away from a 12 y.o. and being
pissed about it IS adversarial. Sometimes we make that mistake,
it's ok....but the next time we can make a different choice.
We can also make the mistake of acting adversarial and then
realizing it and apologizing and coming to an agreement.

If we want to build trust, we can't jump in and take control, we
need to act as an ally. Kids are really like foreigners in so many
ways, just trying to figure out this world. If we jump in and halt
the experimentation, we stunt their ability to be creative.

Use those moments as opportunities to creatively problem
solve...."I'm not willing to risk your eyesight, but I know you love
this laser pointer, how can we experiment with light in the eye and
protect your eyes at the same time"
Come up with some alternatives.
Reading online was great...he gets to do some research with you that
he's obviously interested in.:) Or seems to be.

I think keeping a much loved possession away from him is
adversarial. I think assuming he can't be trusted because he did it
once is overreacting. If you want to be his ally, treat him the way
you would want to be treated if you made a mistake. If you want
honesty, try to discuss, rather than punish.

Ren