Question WAS: What do you think?
Mother Earth (Tyra)
Greetings,
I am with you all on no spanking. It is how I have always chosen to parent.
My question as a new unschooler and new member to this group is is it okay
to put so much heat on a new unschooler that we turn her or him away? I
remember Yolanda Hicks posting just the other day that she wanted to know
more about unschooling because she is new to all of this. Now, she is gone.
I don't think that position of this group should be changed to keep people
in the group. But, I know what it is like to be new to a concept and
genuinely put your feelings out only to feel attacked. The other thing I
think is that maybe there is a cycle in feeling comfortable with certain
groups or concepts, such as unschooling. For example, people like Yolanda
find groups like this. They stay as long as they can before deciding to
leave because the discussions seem to be too foreign to them, but not
without something that they take away that will make a difference. And
maybe in the future they will return when their style of unschooling is more
in alignment with what we believe here. This cycle is a guess and partially
based on my own experience with a parenting approach that does not involve
rewards and punishment.
I put this out because the deeper I get into hsing, the more I believe in it
and anyone who is interested I want to hopefully impart something to them
that will help them make the switch to this beautiful way for children to
learn. I really see unschooling as child advocacy so I understand the
passion. And most of you have unschooled way longer than I have so I am
sure that you understand better than I do that there will be those who just
won't be able to get down with radical unschooling. I don't know if I am
making my point but I would like to hear what you have to say.
Peace
Tyra
I am with you all on no spanking. It is how I have always chosen to parent.
My question as a new unschooler and new member to this group is is it okay
to put so much heat on a new unschooler that we turn her or him away? I
remember Yolanda Hicks posting just the other day that she wanted to know
more about unschooling because she is new to all of this. Now, she is gone.
I don't think that position of this group should be changed to keep people
in the group. But, I know what it is like to be new to a concept and
genuinely put your feelings out only to feel attacked. The other thing I
think is that maybe there is a cycle in feeling comfortable with certain
groups or concepts, such as unschooling. For example, people like Yolanda
find groups like this. They stay as long as they can before deciding to
leave because the discussions seem to be too foreign to them, but not
without something that they take away that will make a difference. And
maybe in the future they will return when their style of unschooling is more
in alignment with what we believe here. This cycle is a guess and partially
based on my own experience with a parenting approach that does not involve
rewards and punishment.
I put this out because the deeper I get into hsing, the more I believe in it
and anyone who is interested I want to hopefully impart something to them
that will help them make the switch to this beautiful way for children to
learn. I really see unschooling as child advocacy so I understand the
passion. And most of you have unschooled way longer than I have so I am
sure that you understand better than I do that there will be those who just
won't be able to get down with radical unschooling. I don't know if I am
making my point but I would like to hear what you have to say.
Peace
Tyra
Robyn Coburn
<<<< But, I know what it is like to be new to a concept and
genuinely put your feelings out only to feel attacked. >>>>>
I suspect that most of us have been there in the beginning. I know I have.
However, I think it is more accurate to say that we feel *defensive*, since
"attacked" refers to what the other person is being perceived as doing
rather than one's own feelings. It is perfectly possible to feel defensive
even in the absence of attack.
Defensiveness can be great because it is a real clue that something needs
examining. I find I feel the most defensive when I am the most in the wrong.
When I most want to jump back and bite is when I try to take a deep breath
or two, and walk around the house muttering replies to myself, until I get
to what *my* real problem is.
That being said this is a "voluntary attendance" list. There is no goon
squad chaining Yolanda or anyone else to the computer and withholding
sustenance from them until they have replied to any posts. If a person
continues to try to defend their position they are making their choice to do
so.
You have heard of the mountain and Mohammed. Mohammed has to come to the
mountain. This list is like the mountain, Mohammed can come and go at will
and the mountain will still be here.
In reality on a list like this, defending or seeking acceptance of a
practice in the face of such near unanimous disapprobation is commensurate
to recommending it. I don't know why people continue to do so when it is
clearly a futile endeavor.
Some people think that spanking is compatible with RU - and they try to
explain all the reasons why they feel justified in it (or *want* to feel
justified), and all the special dispensations, and all the rules about it,
to the list as if we had never heard any of it before.
We have. All of it.
What is more important is that there are people who are still spanking who
have *not* heard the other side, who have not had the courage to stop, who
have not thought about or heard about any alternatives to spanking, who have
never really come across compelling reasons not to spank, even in the
sanctioned "calm" just-on-the-fat way (which btw still hurts like a
motherf*cker as I recall from my youth).
These silent people are the ones who may be reached by the anti-spanking
discussion. Others have found over the years that each time it comes up, one
more parent lurking makes the personal commitment to their children's joy to
renounce spanking.
That is a more valuable use of the list's time than any effort to support
people who insist on attempting to defend the indefensible.
Robyn L. Coburn
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genuinely put your feelings out only to feel attacked. >>>>>
I suspect that most of us have been there in the beginning. I know I have.
However, I think it is more accurate to say that we feel *defensive*, since
"attacked" refers to what the other person is being perceived as doing
rather than one's own feelings. It is perfectly possible to feel defensive
even in the absence of attack.
Defensiveness can be great because it is a real clue that something needs
examining. I find I feel the most defensive when I am the most in the wrong.
When I most want to jump back and bite is when I try to take a deep breath
or two, and walk around the house muttering replies to myself, until I get
to what *my* real problem is.
That being said this is a "voluntary attendance" list. There is no goon
squad chaining Yolanda or anyone else to the computer and withholding
sustenance from them until they have replied to any posts. If a person
continues to try to defend their position they are making their choice to do
so.
You have heard of the mountain and Mohammed. Mohammed has to come to the
mountain. This list is like the mountain, Mohammed can come and go at will
and the mountain will still be here.
In reality on a list like this, defending or seeking acceptance of a
practice in the face of such near unanimous disapprobation is commensurate
to recommending it. I don't know why people continue to do so when it is
clearly a futile endeavor.
Some people think that spanking is compatible with RU - and they try to
explain all the reasons why they feel justified in it (or *want* to feel
justified), and all the special dispensations, and all the rules about it,
to the list as if we had never heard any of it before.
We have. All of it.
What is more important is that there are people who are still spanking who
have *not* heard the other side, who have not had the courage to stop, who
have not thought about or heard about any alternatives to spanking, who have
never really come across compelling reasons not to spank, even in the
sanctioned "calm" just-on-the-fat way (which btw still hurts like a
motherf*cker as I recall from my youth).
These silent people are the ones who may be reached by the anti-spanking
discussion. Others have found over the years that each time it comes up, one
more parent lurking makes the personal commitment to their children's joy to
renounce spanking.
That is a more valuable use of the list's time than any effort to support
people who insist on attempting to defend the indefensible.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Pamela Sorooshian
Last night, my 14 yo was talking online to a 15 yo friend in another
state. He questions her, frequently, about her relationship with us
(her parents) and he is very very sure of himself, sure of his
opinions (at least comes across that way - the fact that he brings
the topic up over and over makes me think that, inside, he isn't
really as sure of himself as he appears). He is a "good kid" - he's
polite, he's interesting, he talks to adults (although the kids say
he acts "different" around adults), he seems to love his parents and
his siblings, he has interests and passions, he seems to get along
pretty well with other people, in general and seems overall really
good-natured and easygoing.
He is frequently "grounded" or has things "taken away" - by his
father, primarily, for breaking family rules. He has been spanked,
too, when younger. He STRONGLY favors the exact kind of upbringing he
is experiencing. He tells Rosie that any child of his will most
definitely be spanked and punished for disobeying rules and said that
kids who aren't punished get spoiled and that he doesn't think
children are parents are on the same "level" - that parents should
act like parents and say "no" when they need to. Rosie said to him,
last night, "So, do you think I'm spoiled, because I've never been
punished and my parents don't really ever just say no?" He didn't
answer, really, but just came back with the question, "If your
parents ever just said "no" to something, would you listen?" (She
says he meant would she ignore them and do whatever it is anyway or
would she abide by her parents' wishes.) She told him, "Yes, of
course I would." His answer: "Yeah, right."
She said, "If they felt that strongly that they just straight out
said, "Absolutely not. No way. No discussion." then I'd think there
is some REALLY good reason and I'd go along with their wishes. But
they've never done that, they always explain their reasons and we
talk about things and decide together." He said, "Kids don't know
enough to decide everything for themselves." She said, "I don't
decide everything for myself. I decide WITH my parents."
This went on - and she got frustrated because it was clear that he
simply couldn't CONCEIVE of the kind of relationship where kids and
parents honestly try to work things out together. Here is this very
nice kid with nice parents - but they see themselves as inevitably
adversarial and, the part that saddens Rosie most, the teenager sees
HIMSELF as needing external control through threat of punishment to
keep himself from doing bad things. If his parents were not there to
threaten punishment, he apparently thinks he would go wild and do all
kinds of stuff that he shouldn't do.
THAT is a foreign concept to Rosie.
-pam
state. He questions her, frequently, about her relationship with us
(her parents) and he is very very sure of himself, sure of his
opinions (at least comes across that way - the fact that he brings
the topic up over and over makes me think that, inside, he isn't
really as sure of himself as he appears). He is a "good kid" - he's
polite, he's interesting, he talks to adults (although the kids say
he acts "different" around adults), he seems to love his parents and
his siblings, he has interests and passions, he seems to get along
pretty well with other people, in general and seems overall really
good-natured and easygoing.
He is frequently "grounded" or has things "taken away" - by his
father, primarily, for breaking family rules. He has been spanked,
too, when younger. He STRONGLY favors the exact kind of upbringing he
is experiencing. He tells Rosie that any child of his will most
definitely be spanked and punished for disobeying rules and said that
kids who aren't punished get spoiled and that he doesn't think
children are parents are on the same "level" - that parents should
act like parents and say "no" when they need to. Rosie said to him,
last night, "So, do you think I'm spoiled, because I've never been
punished and my parents don't really ever just say no?" He didn't
answer, really, but just came back with the question, "If your
parents ever just said "no" to something, would you listen?" (She
says he meant would she ignore them and do whatever it is anyway or
would she abide by her parents' wishes.) She told him, "Yes, of
course I would." His answer: "Yeah, right."
She said, "If they felt that strongly that they just straight out
said, "Absolutely not. No way. No discussion." then I'd think there
is some REALLY good reason and I'd go along with their wishes. But
they've never done that, they always explain their reasons and we
talk about things and decide together." He said, "Kids don't know
enough to decide everything for themselves." She said, "I don't
decide everything for myself. I decide WITH my parents."
This went on - and she got frustrated because it was clear that he
simply couldn't CONCEIVE of the kind of relationship where kids and
parents honestly try to work things out together. Here is this very
nice kid with nice parents - but they see themselves as inevitably
adversarial and, the part that saddens Rosie most, the teenager sees
HIMSELF as needing external control through threat of punishment to
keep himself from doing bad things. If his parents were not there to
threaten punishment, he apparently thinks he would go wild and do all
kinds of stuff that he shouldn't do.
THAT is a foreign concept to Rosie.
-pam
On Dec 11, 2005, at 10:11 AM, Robyn Coburn wrote:
> What is more important is that there are people who are still
> spanking who
> have *not* heard the other side, who have not had the courage to
> stop, who
> have not thought about or heard about any alternatives to spanking,
> who have
> never really come across compelling reasons not to spank, even in the
> sanctioned "calm" just-on-the-fat way (which btw still hurts like a
> motherf*cker as I recall from my youth).
>
> These silent people are the ones who may be reached by the anti-
> spanking
> discussion. Others have found over the years that each time it
> comes up, one
> more parent lurking makes the personal commitment to their
> children's joy to
> renounce spanking.
>
> That is a more valuable use of the list's time than any effort to
> support
> people who insist on attempting to defend the indefensible.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<<He STRONGLY favors the exact kind of upbringing he
is experiencing. ......
the part that saddens Rosie most, the teenager sees
HIMSELF as needing external control through threat of punishment to
keep himself from doing bad things. If his parents were not there to
threaten punishment, he apparently thinks he would go wild and do all
kinds of stuff that he shouldn't do. >>>>
This is just the kind of damaged thinking that Alice Miller alludes to in
much of her writings. He sees himself as flawed instead of acknowledging
flaws on the part of his parents. He also has the perfect excuse to disavow
responsibility for any future wrongdoings. Some authority figure should have
stopped him.
Maybe his fears are justified - maybe he longs for a chance to go wild and
be free for a minute until the world comes crashing down around him. I hope
no disaster befalls his parents leaving him to have to care for himself for
any length of time.
Too much fear to have to live with. Poor guy.
It is also a demonstration of the ineffectiveness of punishments as a
strategy for producing responsible, conscientious, trustworthy adults with a
flourishing internal compass.
Robyn L. Coburn
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is experiencing. ......
the part that saddens Rosie most, the teenager sees
HIMSELF as needing external control through threat of punishment to
keep himself from doing bad things. If his parents were not there to
threaten punishment, he apparently thinks he would go wild and do all
kinds of stuff that he shouldn't do. >>>>
This is just the kind of damaged thinking that Alice Miller alludes to in
much of her writings. He sees himself as flawed instead of acknowledging
flaws on the part of his parents. He also has the perfect excuse to disavow
responsibility for any future wrongdoings. Some authority figure should have
stopped him.
Maybe his fears are justified - maybe he longs for a chance to go wild and
be free for a minute until the world comes crashing down around him. I hope
no disaster befalls his parents leaving him to have to care for himself for
any length of time.
Too much fear to have to live with. Poor guy.
It is also a demonstration of the ineffectiveness of punishments as a
strategy for producing responsible, conscientious, trustworthy adults with a
flourishing internal compass.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Mother Earth (Tyra)
All that you have said makes sense to me. And I most agree that feeling
"defensive" is more accurate than "being attacked."
One more question, you said:
"defensive" is more accurate than "being attacked."
One more question, you said:
----- Original Message ----- >
> Some people think that spanking is compatible with RU -
What is RU? I am not familiar with that acronym. Thank you!
Peace
Tyra
Robyn Coburn
<<<<What is RU? I am not familiar with that acronym. Thank you!>>>>
You are going to say "doh!" ;)
RU - Radical Unschooling.
Robyn L. Coburn
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You are going to say "doh!" ;)
RU - Radical Unschooling.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Deb Lewis
***is it okay to put so much heat on a new unschooler that we turn her or
him away? ***
I'm sorry the poster left because I know she would have found inspiration
here.
I have a personal problem with people who pull the god card. It's as if
they expect diplomatic immunity. The attitude, however passive it seems,
that a higher power has given them the permission to hit their children
and others should accept it is just incredibly offensive to me. I
accept she has the right to believe whatever she wants but I don't accept
that she gets to wave her excuse from god and get a free pass.
I guess any one of us could have stomped off the list. Could have said
that if someone was going to advocate violence against children and claim
it came with divine permission then we'd just have to withdraw.
No one turned this poster away, no one said "Skedaddle!" She left
because she chose not to participate in the discussion after she'd
offended scores of unschoolers. I accept she gets to do that. <g>
Deb Lewis
him away? ***
I'm sorry the poster left because I know she would have found inspiration
here.
I have a personal problem with people who pull the god card. It's as if
they expect diplomatic immunity. The attitude, however passive it seems,
that a higher power has given them the permission to hit their children
and others should accept it is just incredibly offensive to me. I
accept she has the right to believe whatever she wants but I don't accept
that she gets to wave her excuse from god and get a free pass.
I guess any one of us could have stomped off the list. Could have said
that if someone was going to advocate violence against children and claim
it came with divine permission then we'd just have to withdraw.
No one turned this poster away, no one said "Skedaddle!" She left
because she chose not to participate in the discussion after she'd
offended scores of unschoolers. I accept she gets to do that. <g>
Deb Lewis
Angela
<<<Last night, my 14 yo was talking online to a 15 yo friend in another
state.>>>
Was she talking to my nephew? Oh never mind, I guess he's older than that
now. I've had a similar conversation with my nephew though. He was raised
with a lot of rules and punishments and he can't fathom how children could
be nice/good without them. I've tried to give him examples and explanations
but in order for him to accept that what I am telling him is true, he'd have
to come to the realization that he was treated poorly for no reason at all.
That's a lot for a kid to bite off and chew. I don't think I thought deeply
about these type of things until I was in my late twenties.
Angela
Game-enthusiast@...
state.>>>
Was she talking to my nephew? Oh never mind, I guess he's older than that
now. I've had a similar conversation with my nephew though. He was raised
with a lot of rules and punishments and he can't fathom how children could
be nice/good without them. I've tried to give him examples and explanations
but in order for him to accept that what I am telling him is true, he'd have
to come to the realization that he was treated poorly for no reason at all.
That's a lot for a kid to bite off and chew. I don't think I thought deeply
about these type of things until I was in my late twenties.
Angela
Game-enthusiast@...
Mother Earth (Tyra)
Your point makes sense and is well taken. Thank you!
Peace
Tyra
Peace
Tyra
----- Original Message -----
From: Deb Lewis
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Question WAS: What do you think?
***is it okay to put so much heat on a new unschooler that we turn her or
him away? ***
I'm sorry the poster left because I know she would have found inspiration
here.
I have a personal problem with people who pull the god card. It's as if
they expect diplomatic immunity. The attitude, however passive it seems,
that a higher power has given them the permission to hit their children
and others should accept it is just incredibly offensive to me. I
accept she has the right to believe whatever she wants but I don't accept
that she gets to wave her excuse from god and get a free pass.
I guess any one of us could have stomped off the list. Could have said
that if someone was going to advocate violence against children and claim
it came with divine permission then we'd just have to withdraw.
No one turned this poster away, no one said "Skedaddle!" She left
because she chose not to participate in the discussion after she'd
offended scores of unschoolers. I accept she gets to do that. <g>
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]