Kimberly

Many a wise person has warned people to be aware of the fact that
what they read and see will change them. I believe this, though I
have not always. Funny how I would go to watch something thinking it
would not have an effect on me and then latter I found myself with
thoughts I did not have before and could no longer avoid. Even as an
adult I do not always know what I can handle. And I am not the only
one.

My husband, in my the military, military intel infact, spends 16
hours of the day working double shifts doing things he can not tell
me. He has a passion for it. And yesterday I learned more why. He
told me that the terrorist had beheaded their hostage and sent a tape
if it to the news. Thats horrible I said, it made me sick think about
about. We talked about how it might feel to his family, wanting to
see it, but yet not. And then he told me the details of how they did
it. It was not the fast death I had in my mind. I will not share it
here, but I will say I wish I did not know. Hubby went on to tell me
with anger and tears in his eyes how he can not stop thinking about
it, how they are so close to catching the people who did it, and how
part of him wants to get online and see it. Wants to see it... he
thought maybe it would bring him closer on it all. After a lot of
talking, he desided it would cause himself more harm then good. It
took a grown adult days to make this choice.

So I am left thinking that my choice to gaurd my 4 year old from
certian channels and programs on TV for the moment is right. I am the
sheltering mother, the protecter. For the moment, what she does not
know she is missing will not hurt her. So HBO and other channels can
stay blocked for her and late night tv watching will have Mommy right
there like a lioness making sure it will not harm my little one.

I remember being little and my grandparents letting me watch The
Blob with them, oh if onky they hadn't I would have gotten a great
deal more sleep growing up! LOL

Blessings,
Kimmy

P.S. Sorry if others do not agree, that is ok. I do not believe that
you have to cut away all limits to be an unchooler, I believe in
balance and moderation, not to make my life easier, but to provide a
healthy home for those I love.

[email protected]

IMO I tend to agree with what you are saying. I may be called overprotective
(and hopefully won't be called a true unschooler), but there are things on tv
I will not let my boys watch.
When they were babies, they had boundries for their safety, this is just a
different kind of boundry.
syndi

"...since we can't know what knowledge will be most needed in the future, it
is senseless to try to teach it in advance. Instead, we should try to turn out
people who love learning so much and learn so well that they will be able to
learn whatever needs to be learned."
-- John Holt


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese

-----Original Message-----
From: Kimberly [mailto:Kontessa_Rose@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 7:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Everything we see changes us. -- TV

"So I am left thinking that my choice to gaurd my 4 year old from
certian channels and programs on TV for the moment is right. I am the
sheltering mother, the protecter. For the moment, what she does not
know she is missing will not hurt her. So HBO and other channels can
stay blocked for her and late night tv watching will have Mommy right
there like a lioness making sure it will not harm my little one.

I remember being little and my grandparents letting me watch The
Blob with them, oh if onky they hadn't I would have gotten a great
deal more sleep growing up! LOL

Blessings,
Kimmy

P.S. Sorry if others do not agree, that is ok. I do not believe that
you have to cut away all limits to be an unchooler, I believe in
balance and moderation, not to make my life easier, but to provide a
healthy home for those I love."

Hi, Kimmy,

What's been discussed on this list a lot that makes a ton of sense to me is
necessary limits versus arbitrary (knee jerk reaction) type limits. So what
I try to do with my family is to question the limits I find myself setting
to find out what's behind them, and to discuss them with my family.
Sometimes the questioning reveals nothing behind it at all. But in the case
of adult TV, which you bring up here, it is also a big concern of mine that
my kids may be exposed to and disturbed by adult content that is not their
choice, but is something my husband happens to have on so they look up and
see it because they are playing with him. So I talk to my daughter at least
since she is 5.7 about the "adult content TV" that daddy watches, and what
types of things are on there, and she is actually the one who will often
make sure that her Dad isn't watching anything with that type of content on
while she is around (like the crime shows). She very much enjoys watching
sports and shows like Survivor and Fear FActor with him - she loves the
challenges. At some point as she gets older doubtless she'll get interested
in some of the other stuff, and we'll talk about what it is, any concerns I
have about the content, and she'll decide if and when she wants to try some
of it, and I'll be there to try it with her, talk to her, and support her.

Cheers,

Joan






Yahoo! Groups Links

Krisula Moyer

I agree here. We don't specifically limit what our kids can choose to see,
though I guess we limit what comes into the house b/c we don't have cable or
satellite, the kids are free to choose what they want for the most part.
However, they know they do not want to see the news on TV. Used to be they
didn't like it because it seemed boring but neither of them want to see it
now because they've seen enough disturbing ads for news programs. Trayton
will actually leap off his chair to turn it off or change the channel. They
don't mind talking with us about news events and will even read the front
page of the newspaper but not on tv. Too disturbing ( and I would ad
sensationalized and shallow)

One time dd then 7 was at a friend's house when she saw a news report about
a local kidnapping/murder of a little girl. The friends she was with stayed
glued to the tv for more reporting about it and the mom decided to make it a
"see, that's why I tell you not to wander away from me at the mall" lesson.
Not at all how I would have responded. But after that dd would not be alone
in her bedroom ever. It changed her little life. She was scared to sleep
near a window etc. Still is almost 2 years later.

Krisula
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kimmy wrote:
Many a wise person has warned people to be aware of the fact that
what they read and see will change them. I believe this, though I
have not always. Funny how I would go to watch something thinking it
would not have an effect on me and then latter I found myself with
thoughts I did not have before and could no longer avoid. Even as an
adult I do not always know what I can handle. And I am not the only
one. ...

pam sorooshian

Surely you don't think we would we stand by and let our children be
harmed? That doesn't make sense, right?

So - I think there is a gap between what some people are saying about
not having limits on tv and what others are imagining happens when
there are no limits.

Maybe we need to say that we substitute something else for "limits."
Because otherwise it sounds like we just do nothing, which is far from
true. Having pre-established set limits would be easier than what we do
- I could just set limits (no shows on Fox network or HBO, one hour per
day maximum, only when your room is clean, etc.). But without those
kinds of limits, I STILL care about what my kids are watching and still
want to not let them be harmed, right? So what do I do instead? A bunch
of things that are harder to talk about clearly than, "Set limits."

Watch together, give good advice so the kids will trust my advice,
point out when things are about to get scary or inappropriate and maybe
fast forward or mute for a second, even send a kid out to get something
right then, NEVER do we watch tv news when kids are around - I don't
even like my dh to do it when I am around - I think that is cruel and
imposes something really shallow and awful on others, talk a LOT about
what is watched - talk about commercials, talk about sexual innuendo,
talk about violence and its effect on society, talk about how women are
portrayed, etc. Talk talk talk..... And - again - I will say to one of
my kids, "No way - you don't really want to watch that - it'll totally
freak you out." The kid will say, "Oh - well - hmmm." And much more
often than not, they'll find something else to do. If they REALLY want
to watch something - I might delay it a little (6 months can be a big
difference in readiness for some stuff) just by being busy - we ARE
busy. But eventually we'll watch it together. If a kid wants to see
something that I'm just SURE is a terrible idea - the kid will go along
with me, even if somewhat regretfully, because they know that I have a
very very good reason. And if there is something they still want BADLY
to see - I'll go along and watch with them, because then they must have
a very good reason, if they want to disregard my advice. My 13 yo is
the one who sometimes we do this with - because she really wants to see
something her sisters have seen and are talking a lot about, even
though we all tell her it might really upset her.

I think the husband who described the beheading in such graphic detail
was cruel. I'd have left the room almost immediately - I read the
headlines and the stories, but passed on video or graphic descriptions.

My kids are very very selective about what they'll watch. But, even
though they have no specific externally imposed "limits" - meaning we
don't say, "One hour per day," or "Only public tv" or whatever rules
people might have, it doesn't mean kids are making tv choices without
the guidance of their loving parents.

-pam

P.S. Unschooling tends to encourage people to question everything -
after all, when we realize that kids learn just beautifully without
schooling, it is natural to wonder if other things that children
supposedly "need" are really necessary. But unschooling just means not
doing "school at home."

On Jun 20, 2004, at 6:09 PM, Onesnotenough@... wrote:

> IMO I tend to agree with what you are saying. I may be called
> overprotective
> (and hopefully won't be called a true unschooler), but there are
> things on tv
> I will not let my boys watch.
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

[email protected]

> I think the husband who described the beheading in such graphic detail
>
> was cruel. I'd have left the room almost immediately - I read the
>
> headlines and the stories, but passed on video or graphic descriptions.


I don't think he was being cruel. That would imply he was taking delightful
pleasure in watching his wife's discomfiture while he told her about it. From
the original post it sounded much more like he was really wrestling with the
awfulness of it all and she was his sounding board. My husband and I often
that do that with each other when we are working through things.

Blessings,
Jamye

pam sorooshian

On Jun 21, 2004, at 6:07 PM, doulos@... wrote:

>> I think the husband who described the beheading in such graphic detail
>>
>> was cruel. I'd have left the room almost immediately - I read the
>>
>> headlines and the stories, but passed on video or graphic
>> descriptions.
>
>
> I don't think he was being cruel. That would imply he was taking
> delightful
> pleasure in watching his wife's discomfiture while he told her about
> it. From
> the original post it sounded much more like he was really wrestling
> with the
> awfulness of it all and she was his sounding board. My husband and I
> often
> that do that with each other when we are working through things.

I didn't mean he was taking pleasure in it. I was referring to
describing it in detail to someone who clearly didn't want to hear that
kind of thing. Maybe cruel is too strong a word - but I was shaken up
even from the description given here.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Kimberly

Pam, I never posted to cause conflict, but I think some people are
looking for it. My use of the world healthy was brought up, some
people that eating meat is not healthy. I am defining healthy in my
family differently then others. Clearly limits here is used as a
negative thing, I like them, like gaurd rails on the side of the
road. I can control how I drive for the most part, just as I trust
my daughter can chose well what she watches and reads, but neither
I, nor her, can control what others do, what just happens to be on
tv as she is flashing through channels.

By no means do I think that those parents chosing not to use the
word limit and it'e effects as they see them, are any less good
parents. But everyone is different and not everything works for
everyone the same way. My daughter can watch Jurasic park with no
ill effects but the cartoon Monsters gives her nightmares! And to
top it off she will watch ANYTHING! She loves TV, no matter what is
on. I have to shange the channel tonight because I was watching
Salams Lot and she came in the living room sat down and started
watching too! Not something she needs to be seeing and there was no
talking to her about it, she is in the fighting everything phase.


As for you calling my husband cruel... you have no idea! He is in
the army, he went to Iraq, he had a gun. Like is cruel. I am his
wife, and I expect him to share all of lifes shadows with me if they
are bothering him. He spared me a lot of details I am sure. The rest
of us can hide from the horror of it, but it is his job to know them
so that he can protect us from those people. I will be damned if he
has to sholder that burden alone. I am his wife, his equal, his
other half, it would be cruel of him not to share!


Let me make this clear, my post was to share what I have found to
be true about life, that all we read and see effects us, even if we
do not wish them to and that as a parent I am going to protect my
child as best I can from those things she is not yet ready to deal
with.

I do not think doing away with limits all together would work for
my family, because like me, and many others, my daughter feels
protected by them and safe. I will take the limits of the gaurd
rails on the road of life thanks.

Blessings,
Kimberly



--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
> Surely you don't think we would we stand by and let our children
be
> harmed? That doesn't make sense, right?
>
> So - I think there is a gap between what some people are saying
about
> not having limits on tv and what others are imagining happens when
> there are no limits.
>
> Maybe we need to say that we substitute something else
for "limits."
> Because otherwise it sounds like we just do nothing, which is far
from
> true. Having pre-established set limits would be easier than what
we do
> - I could just set limits (no shows on Fox network or HBO, one
hour per
> day maximum, only when your room is clean, etc.). But without
those
> kinds of limits, I STILL care about what my kids are watching and
still
> want to not let them be harmed, right? So what do I do instead? A
bunch
> of things that are harder to talk about clearly than, "Set limits."
>
> Watch together, give good advice so the kids will trust my advice,
> point out when things are about to get scary or inappropriate and
maybe
> fast forward or mute for a second, even send a kid out to get
something
> right then, NEVER do we watch tv news when kids are around - I
don't
> even like my dh to do it when I am around - I think that is cruel
and
> imposes something really shallow and awful on others, talk a LOT
about
> what is watched - talk about commercials, talk about sexual
innuendo,
> talk about violence and its effect on society, talk about how
women are
> portrayed, etc. Talk talk talk..... And - again - I will say to
one of
> my kids, "No way - you don't really want to watch that - it'll
totally
> freak you out." The kid will say, "Oh - well - hmmm." And much
more
> often than not, they'll find something else to do. If they REALLY
want
> to watch something - I might delay it a little (6 months can be a
big
> difference in readiness for some stuff) just by being busy - we
ARE
> busy. But eventually we'll watch it together. If a kid wants to
see
> something that I'm just SURE is a terrible idea - the kid will go
along
> with me, even if somewhat regretfully, because they know that I
have a
> very very good reason. And if there is something they still want
BADLY
> to see - I'll go along and watch with them, because then they must
have
> a very good reason, if they want to disregard my advice. My 13 yo
is
> the one who sometimes we do this with - because she really wants
to see
> something her sisters have seen and are talking a lot about, even
> though we all tell her it might really upset her.
>
> I think the husband who described the beheading in such graphic
detail
> was cruel. I'd have left the room almost immediately - I read the
> headlines and the stories, but passed on video or graphic
descriptions.
>
> My kids are very very selective about what they'll watch. But,
even
> though they have no specific externally imposed "limits" - meaning
we
> don't say, "One hour per day," or "Only public tv" or whatever
rules
> people might have, it doesn't mean kids are making tv choices
without
> the guidance of their loving parents.
>
> -pam
>
> P.S. Unschooling tends to encourage people to question everything -

> after all, when we realize that kids learn just beautifully
without
> schooling, it is natural to wonder if other things that children
> supposedly "need" are really necessary. But unschooling just means
not
> doing "school at home."
>
> On Jun 20, 2004, at 6:09 PM, Onesnotenough@a... wrote:
>
> > IMO I tend to agree with what you are saying. I may be called
> > overprotective
> > (and hopefully won't be called a true unschooler), but there are
> > things on tv
> > I will not let my boys watch.
> National Home Education Network
> <www.NHEN.org>
> Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
> through information, networking and public relations.

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/22/2004 4:24:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
Blessings,
Kimmy

P.S. Sorry if others do not agree, that is ok. I do not believe that
you have to cut away all limits to be an unchooler, I believe in
balance and moderation, not to make my life easier, but to provide a
healthy home for those I love."


Good for you, Kimmy! Making these judgements is all part of being a good
parent, imo.

Changing my mind to adjust for each kid -- that's the hard part.

My personal example --

DS watches everything. He is 11. He does not seem to be upset by any of it
and skips over the parts that he is not interested in -- like the smoochy parts
(although he does now know that women have breasts . . . hmmmmm . .. :) ).

OTOH, there is DD. She is 9. If I am watching something I don't think is
appropriate for her, I will tell her "This is a grown up show, I don't think you'd
like it." And she goes off to whatever she should have been doing -- which is
usually going to bed because it's late enough that I am watching a movie.

But the thing is -- it's a self-regulating sort of thing. She genuinely does
not want to watch a lot of the things my son is intrigued with. Car crashes
and all that -- just no fun for her, it seems. Gross humor -- not her thing.

So my little warning is more of a courtesy heads up to her, not a "you can't
watch this" statement.

Anyway -- that's how it feels here as we wend our way toward adolescence in a
TV-filled house. If I explained it all clearly.

Nance


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jennifer Altenbach

I don't know what to do about my situation today. My son age 4 has been
asking a lot recently about where things are made, and he's been seeing
the visits to various factories on Mr. Rogers, so we have talked a lot
about the toilet paper factory that is just around the corner from our
house. He has said several times that he wants to see it. So last week
I emailed them and asked about a tour. They wrote back and were
thrilled to have us come, and we set it up for today at 3:00. When I
told my son we could go he was thrilled, he said "OK, let's go!" and I
said well it won't be until next week and he was bummed. Then the lady
wrote me and said that we would need to wear hair nets while there.
Well, I knew he would be resistant to the idea so I told him about it in
order to give him plenty of time to get used to it, and I even bought
some hair nets so he could see what they were, explained why we need to
wear them, etc. But he now says he doesn't want to go and it's looking
like he's going to resist pretty strongly. He says he's afraid of the
people there and the noise of the machines. I know that what he is
really afraid of is the unknown. He is always wary of new situations
but once he's in them he adjusts fairly quickly and winds up having a
great time. I know he would love to see the machinery. He absolutely
loves that kind of stuff.

So I don't know what to do. I've talked to him about his fears, and
reminded him of how he usually has a good time once he's there, and told
him that once we are there and we've seen a little bit if he still
doesn't like it we can leave. He's digging in his heels. I don't want
to force him, yet I really feel compelled to go through with it,
especially because they have been so generous in setting it up for us,
AND my husband has scheduled time off from work to watch the baby while
we go.

Aaaaaah, I'm so frustrated!!!!!
Jenny

pam sorooshian

On Jun 22, 2004, at 9:02 AM, Jennifer Altenbach wrote:

> So I don't know what to do. I've talked to him about his fears, and
> reminded him of how he usually has a good time once he's there, and
> told
> him that once we are there and we've seen a little bit if he still
> doesn't like it we can leave. He's digging in his heels.

I have dealt with this kind of thing, too, in the past. I suggest you
don't talk about going on the tour - or about wearing the hair nets or
the loud machines or any of that. Just say, "Let's just go and see what
the place looks like inside the door. We can leave any time we want."
Then - when there, "Let's just look at a little bit. We can leave when
we want."

And - remember - you CAN leave.

If he seems to have had enough - that's what you say to the person
giving you a tour.

"THANK you so much - this was so great. This has been just enough for
him...given him a lot of new information and input. I think any more
would be too much for him, for right now."

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Wendy E

I don't think you should make him go if he doesn't want to. You can
explain to him that you set it up because he expressed interest in
it, that it is not something he will have the opportunity to do
again for awhile and you are concerned he will be disappointed if he
doesn't go. But if he is resistant, then don't go. A huge factory
might be overwhelming for a 4yo.

--- In [email protected], "Jennifer Altenbach"
<salten@c...> wrote:
> I don't know what to do about my situation today. My son age 4
has been
> asking a lot recently about where things are made, and he's been
seeing
> the visits to various factories on Mr. Rogers, so we have talked a
lot
> about the toilet paper factory that is just around the corner from
our
> house. He has said several times that he wants to see it. So
last week
> I emailed them and asked about a tour. They wrote back and were
> thrilled to have us come, and we set it up for today at 3:00.
When I
> told my son we could go he was thrilled, he said "OK, let's go!"
and I
> said well it won't be until next week and he was bummed. Then the
lady
> wrote me and said that we would need to wear hair nets while there.
> Well, I knew he would be resistant to the idea so I told him about
it in
> order to give him plenty of time to get used to it, and I even
bought
> some hair nets so he could see what they were, explained why we
need to
> wear them, etc. But he now says he doesn't want to go and it's
looking
> like he's going to resist pretty strongly. He says he's afraid of
the
> people there and the noise of the machines. I know that what he is
> really afraid of is the unknown. He is always wary of new
situations
> but once he's in them he adjusts fairly quickly and winds up
having a
> great time. I know he would love to see the machinery. He
absolutely
> loves that kind of stuff.
>
> So I don't know what to do. I've talked to him about his fears,
and
> reminded him of how he usually has a good time once he's there,
and told
> him that once we are there and we've seen a little bit if he still
> doesn't like it we can leave. He's digging in his heels. I don't
want
> to force him, yet I really feel compelled to go through with it,
> especially because they have been so generous in setting it up for
us,
> AND my husband has scheduled time off from work to watch the baby
while
> we go.
>
> Aaaaaah, I'm so frustrated!!!!!
> Jenny

dail

:-) Yes, young children can be a cause of fustration at times. I remember being frustrated when I paid $ for swimming lessons and my dd would not get anywhere near the pool. When I finally flip my emotional switch, relaxed and gave up on the lessons [and the $} She naturally jumped in and started swimming underwater to retrive toys!!!
<arrgh!>

{{Relax and enjoy your son}}
It's OK. He is very young and there will be plenty of other times for him to go places.
At least he knows you did set it up for him and that a trip is possible. That in itself is an eye opener. Try again next year.

The people at the factory will not mind you canceling, just tell them he is 4 and Thank Them for their time.
You can not help it if a child balks at the last min. He will or he won't. People 'in charge' should know kids change their minds {{ You and he are the only ones you need to answer to}}


If your husband wants to take care of the baby so your son could go w you for an educational outing, maybe go to a muesum.

Is there a local ice cream shop where you might walk through their kitchen? These smaller places are like normal kitchens w only a few big machines and a treat at the end. In reality, even huge icecream plants no longer allows you to get close to the machines anymore. It can be a disappointment. The one we went to had a viewing hall sperarating us from the work space w glass.

As an older mom, one thing I might suggest is you concider not giving your son too much advanced info. He wanted to go. As it got cloesr to time he played it over too much in his mind and it 'scared' him. Making a big deal of something, like hair nets and noisy machines gives him permission to for him to react. Let Mr Roger's do the job of sparking your son's interest and let the factory tour person hand out the hairnet. The fun of the factory will take over.

One example was when my oldest child was 3, she was a biter. I read many books on how to stop her from biting and tried many things. including getting mean. Then I read an article in Dr Spock ..Nothing in it worked, except turning the page...There was ONE small paragraph that stated: "There are some children for which none of these ideas will work In those cases, you need to stop talking about it. When a child bites you can talk about how it hurt the other person and what the child was feeling when she bit but the NEXT day DO NOT mention it. do not say, "Don't bite anyone today" as you are walking out the door because what she hears is " ...Bite anyone today" I kept my mouth shut and almost immediately her biting was over.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

dail

Please forgive my spelling errors. I tend to write fast to get my thoughts down/not caring about spelling/knowing I blew some words; and then I rely on spell check....This time spell check said it was OK and I believed it.

Dail

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<<But he now says he doesn't want to go and it's
Looking like he's going to resist pretty strongly. He says he's afraid of
The people there and the noise of the machines. I know that what he is
really afraid of is the unknown. He is always wary of new
situations>>>

If it were Jayn (4.5) expressing these feelings, we would not go. On the few
occasions that I have tried the approach that Pam suggested of taking Jayn
somewhere in a kind of gentle surprise, the result has not been positive.
She has generally rebelled in the car, when we parked, and we have always
left almost at once.

OTOH, when I have told her at home that we need not go if she doesn't want
to, sometimes she has thought about it again and changed her mind. "Well, I
guess I could go".

There have been times when she has balked at the rules of an establishment,
in your case the hairnets. We have sat silently (getting the staff to be
quiet and leave us alone instead of cajoling and jollying her being the
hardest task!) and given her a chance to either comply in her own time or be
happy to leave *without recriminations*. Usually she has decided to follow
the rule.

You may end up having to have a family day with DH instead. Shucks ;)

The folks at the factory will understand. It is no different from if you had
a sudden illness or household emergency and had to cancel. In fact I would
probably call and apologize without going into detail about why. Is there
someone else in your local area or homeschool support group who could go in
your stead?

Robyn L. Coburn

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mamaaj2000

--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
> So - I think there is a gap between what some people are saying
about
> not having limits on tv and what others are imagining happens when
> there are no limits.
> Maybe we need to say that we substitute something else
for "limits."
> Because otherwise it sounds like we just do nothing, which is far
from
> true.
So what do I do instead? A bunch
> of things that are harder to talk about clearly than, "Set limits."

I think this is one of the hardest parts of unschooling to grasp. I
think I mentioned on UnschoolingDiscussion a while ago about setting
up a two-column chart with "Replace this behavior" and "Do this
instead". Now I want 4 columns...I'll write it out in rows so that
it's easier to read:

1) Stop controling what your kids watch and...

2) Start influencing (not manipulating!) what they watch and why.
Have conversations (when they want to) about shows, the making of
shows, the affect of sitting still vs. running around the backyard,
etc. and you will find...

3) Changes in yourself: less worried and grumpy about how much tv the
kids watch and more enjoyment of what they watch, more understanding
of their likes and dislikes, etc. (I'm blanking on good examples
here) and you will see...

4) Changes in your kids: tv is something they can take or leave so
they'll turn off a show in the middle to do something fun with you!
And so on...

I could do the same for controling what kids eat. Once I loosened up,
I noticed that ds was getting plenty of protein from milk and that he
loves fruit. And that he's much more willing to try new foods for
breakfast than for dinner...

My 2 cents in 4 columns!

--aj

melissazietlow

--- In [email protected], "dail" <dailrow@g...> wrote:
> one thing I might suggest is you concider not giving your son too
much advanced info. He wanted to go. As it got cloesr to time he
played it over too much in his mind and it 'scared' him. Making a
big deal of something, like hair nets and noisy machines gives him
permission to for him to react. Let Mr Roger's do the job of
sparking your son's interest and let the factory tour person hand out
the hairnet. The fun of the factory will take over.<


This was my first thought as well after reading your post. Too much
info sometimes seems to be an issue with certain children. Too much
to process and form a fear about before the event.

MZ

Jennifer Altenbach

Hi Dail,
Thanks for the kind post. Your advice and others' helped to make this
go really well today.

<<As an older mom, one thing I might suggest is you concider not
giving your son too much advanced info. He wanted to go. As it got
cloesr to time he played it over too much in his mind and it 'scared'
him. Making a big deal of something, like hair nets and noisy machines
gives him permission to for him to react. Let Mr Roger's do the job of
sparking your son's interest and let the factory tour person hand out
the hairnet. The fun of the factory will take over.>>

Other folks suggested this also. This is one thing that I have a very
difficult time balancing. For something like a Dr visit or going to a
sitter, I don't tell him about it days in advance for that very reason,
but I also can't just spring it on him last minute either. I have found
that the night before works best, especially if it is a morning
appointment. He seems to do a lot better if we go through what to
expect beforehand. In the case of the hair net, I know he would have
been resistant to having the factory people handle it. In fact, when
she pulled out the hair nets he said he wanted to wear "ours"-luckily I
had brought them. Honestly I often don't know which is harder for
him-knowing beforehand or being surprised. He is just so painfully
sensitive.

<<One example was when my oldest child was 3, she was a biter. I read
many books on how to stop her from biting and tried many things.
including getting mean. Then I read an article in Dr Spock ..Nothing
in it worked, except turning the page...There was ONE small paragraph
that stated: "There are some children for which none of these ideas
will work In those cases, you need to stop talking about it. When a
child bites you can talk about how it hurt the other person and what the
child was feeling when she bit but the NEXT day DO NOT mention it. do
not say, "Don't bite anyone today" as you are walking out the door
because what she hears is " ...Bite anyone today" I kept my mouth shut
and almost immediately her biting was over.>>>

YES! We found this to work really well too. Becky Bailey says that
"what you focus on, you get more of." We learned this when Scotty was 2
and started spitting. We tried everything in our gentle parenting tool
box to get him to stop, and nothing worked. Finally we just completely
ignored it, and he stopped within days.

Thanks again to everyone who responded. It was a good day.
Jenny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sherri-Lee Pressman

Hi aj,

When you do this could you post it? Just this one example was so good for me to read and helpful. Thank you. Any other ones you come up with I would love to read.

What I have noticed for me is that since I have become less domineering in my rules and more inclusive of her in the decisions she doesn't want what I was trying to limit as much, of course you all knew this to be true and surprisingly to me (not to you) she is not sitting like a lump in front of the TV all day long.

AND things I really feel like I have to say no to are not fought as much as they used to be....

Ok.. so you all knew this and all but it is nice to see it happening and to feel more respected because I am being more respectful in how I talk and deal with her.

Sherri-Lee
Looking for safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
----- Original Message -----
From: mamaaj2000
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 10:18 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Everything we see changes us. -- TV


--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
> So - I think there is a gap between what some people are saying
about
> not having limits on tv and what others are imagining happens when
> there are no limits.
> Maybe we need to say that we substitute something else
for "limits."
> Because otherwise it sounds like we just do nothing, which is far
from
> true.
So what do I do instead? A bunch
> of things that are harder to talk about clearly than, "Set limits."

I think this is one of the hardest parts of unschooling to grasp. I
think I mentioned on UnschoolingDiscussion a while ago about setting
up a two-column chart with "Replace this behavior" and "Do this
instead". Now I want 4 columns...I'll write it out in rows so that
it's easier to read:

1) Stop controling what your kids watch and...

2) Start influencing (not manipulating!) what they watch and why.
Have conversations (when they want to) about shows, the making of
shows, the affect of sitting still vs. running around the backyard,
etc. and you will find...

3) Changes in yourself: less worried and grumpy about how much tv the
kids watch and more enjoyment of what they watch, more understanding
of their likes and dislikes, etc. (I'm blanking on good examples
here) and you will see...

4) Changes in your kids: tv is something they can take or leave so
they'll turn off a show in the middle to do something fun with you!
And so on...

I could do the same for controling what kids eat. Once I loosened up,
I noticed that ds was getting plenty of protein from milk and that he
loves fruit. And that he's much more willing to try new foods for
breakfast than for dinner...

My 2 cents in 4 columns!

--aj




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dana Matt

--- Jennifer Altenbach <salten@...> wrote:
> I don't know what to do about my situation today.
> My son age 4 has been
> asking a lot recently about where things are made,

Wow....I read ahead and I know that today turned out
ok for you, but I just wanted to add...WOW, my 6 yo
would just be ready for that now...as long as she saw
them take the hair net out of the sterilyzed package
;) But for the noise and stuff....it might still be
too much. He's still a little guy, and has PLENTY of
time to see factories and use toilet paper ;) Just
because it freaks him out now doesn't mean he's
super-sensitive, it just means that he's only 4....

Dana
in Montana



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Jennifer Altenbach

From Dana:

<<WOW, my 6 yo
would just be ready for that now...as long as she saw
them take the hair net out of the sterilyzed package
;) But for the noise and stuff....it might still be
too much. He's still a little guy, and has PLENTY of
time to see factories and use toilet paper ;) Just
because it freaks him out now doesn't mean he's
super-sensitive, it just means that he's only 4....>>>

and from Nance:

<<I've never toured a toilet paper factory and function quite well in
the
world. :)>>

Just to make it clear, he had no problem whatsoever with the noise, as I
expected. He was afraid before we went that it would be very loud, and
it was kind of loud, but no louder than the pump room at the aquarium
where his dad works, and he's been there bunches of times.

Also, it was not that I felt that he HAD to see how toilet paper was
made. It was that he kept asking me about where and how things were
made, and we drove past this particular factory every day and talked
about how they made paper in there. He was really interested in it.
Also, he absolutely LOVES machinery. Anything with wheels, gears, or
pulleys on it sends him into fits of joy. Has since he was a baby.

This was not the kind of thing where I woke up one morning and said
"gee, what kind of educational field trip do I feel the need to impose
upon my kid because he's not in school and I need to do something?" I
sense that some of you might think that that was my motivation here. My
problem was in helping him past his initial reluctance to where he could
go and do something I knew he would enjoy, which, thanks to some great
advice, he did.

Jenny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

liannemargaret

Jennifer,

Do you have support group(s) in RT? I have found that attending
things like this as an "unschool trip" makes everything more fun for
my guy. Nothing's quite as scary if there's 5 or 6 of your regular
playmates attending.

And for things/places that offer group rates, it's an added bonus!

Lianne
mum to Wolf 6.8.99

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/22/2004 7:42:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, s-lp@...
writes:

When you do this could you post it? Just this one example was so good for me
to read and helpful. Thank you. Any other ones you come up with I would love
to read.

What I have noticed for me is that since I have become less domineering in
my rules and more inclusive of her in the decisions she doesn't want what I
was trying to limit as much, of course you all knew this to be true and
surprisingly to me (not to you) she is not sitting like a lump in front of the TV
all day long.

AND things I really feel like I have to say no to are not fought as much as
they used to be....

Ok.. so you all knew this and all but it is nice to see it happening and to
feel more respected because I am being more respectful in how I talk and deal
with her.



<<<<<

Ta-DAAAHHH! <g>

Good for you!

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]