corporal punishment; was what do you think?
Ren Allen
I just want to share a couple of things, for those that are
interested in the topic of spanking/hitting and moving beyond that
style of parenting. This is Pam Sorooshian's "No More Spanking" list
if anyone wants that type of support (you can get it here also of
course, but that list is focused on the topic)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NoMoreSpanking/messages
And here is a great article, for those of you that think "some"
spanking is alright: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4429706.stm
Makes a good case for change, doesn't it?
I don't need any studies or research to know that spanking is wrong
at this point in my life. If it's wrong for adults to hit each
other, then it's sending a really crappy message to children that
THEY alone are worth hitting. ugh.
I also can simply look in my children's eyes and know that I never,
ever want to create harm where they are concerned. I can SEE the
divine in them, why would I ever want to diminish that?
Ren
interested in the topic of spanking/hitting and moving beyond that
style of parenting. This is Pam Sorooshian's "No More Spanking" list
if anyone wants that type of support (you can get it here also of
course, but that list is focused on the topic)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NoMoreSpanking/messages
And here is a great article, for those of you that think "some"
spanking is alright: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4429706.stm
Makes a good case for change, doesn't it?
I don't need any studies or research to know that spanking is wrong
at this point in my life. If it's wrong for adults to hit each
other, then it's sending a really crappy message to children that
THEY alone are worth hitting. ugh.
I also can simply look in my children's eyes and know that I never,
ever want to create harm where they are concerned. I can SEE the
divine in them, why would I ever want to diminish that?
Ren
Robyn Coburn
<<<<< I don't need any studies or research to know that spanking is wrong
at this point in my life. If it's wrong for adults to hit each
other, then it's sending a really crappy message to children that
THEY alone are worth hitting. ugh.>>>>>
A bully is a person who uses intimidation - physical violence or the threat
of physical violence - to coerce another person to do what they want.
All the "for their own good" reasoning or good intentions in the world do
not remove the fact that parents who are using their enhanced physical
strength, or position of power, to force obedience from their children, are
using the same strategies - *behaving* in exactly the same way - as any
schoolyard bully, or gang banger, or sleazy boss using harassment to gain
"favors" from an employee.
I hold myself to a higher standard than these people. I have made a
commitment to not spanking or punishing. This is regardless of how Jayn
behaves.
I guess the great difference is that I don't consider Obedience to be a
virtue or, more importantly on this list, a useful Unschooling Principle. If
Jayn chooses not to comply with some request of mine, the lack is in *me* -
my reasoning is insufficient, my explanation is inadequate, my request is
unreasonable. Real aware and reasoned and mindful Compliance, comes from
free agreement.
If it is a case of life threatening danger, why would Jayn, never expected
to obey, not respond to a warning of danger - from a place of Trust, from
hearing my fear expressed in my voice? If the person who claims spanking
saved their child's life on two occasions would like to expand on those
instances, I would be interested in hearing about them. Be warned that I
would be looking at them with a view to seeing how the same good results
might have been reached without the spanking.
Here is a page talking about a lot of research about spanking including the
Embry study showing that spanking actually increases the number of "street
entries" by toddlers.
http://stoptherod.net/research.htm
I am sure that no-one here would advocate the use of rewards (stickers) as
Embry suggests, but rather would employ the strategy of empowering safe
explorations as has been already suggested by other posters. This also
removes the emotional challenge content of the testing behaviors. Spanking
is not the best way to ensure (as far as we can ensure) safety.
Jayn took a step onto the busy road once in a moment of excitement, but
stepped back instantly when dh said "stop" very sharply. Our response was to
give her a lot of hugs instead of any spanks.
My mother spanked me all through my childhood. She did so because she felt
powerless and had no better strategy. Appallingly, she was actually doing
better than her own father did with her. The end result was that I have no
memories of life with my mother that are not tainted by fear or anger or
resentment. None. All the joys in my life came from other people and other
places than my home. I forgive her, but I am sure that she wanted to leave a
different legacy.
I understand the powerlessness of having a child being wild at moments, and
wishing for control over her and her challenging behaviors. There have been
times when I have been angry. Jayn has told me I had a scary face, which I
saw as a call to action in myself. What I do is those instances, rather than
resorting to the primitive violent exertion of control over Jayn, is first
remind myself to breathe, mentally reiterate my commitment NEVER to spank,
and then look for the loving action I can take towards her. Or just to step
away for a moment to find the desire to show her love again.
Deciding never to spank does not have to mean looking into a yawning black
vortex of chaos and helplessness.
Those people who don't have resentments towards their parents who spanked
them are lucky. Alice Miller has written a great deal, from a psychological
point of view, about how children, even once grown, who were hurt by their
parents often go to any lengths to excuse them and deny the hurts. I was
that way when I was young also, making myself believe that I was a "naughty"
girl, who somehow deserved these punishments. I know better now.
Here is one place to find Alice Miller's writings:
http://www.thisisawar.com/AbuseChildren.htm
She is also a person who has written about a link between uncritical
obedience and the rise of fascism and the horrors of the Holocaust.
People say things like "I was spanked and I turned out OK". My response is
to say that, no, you turned out to be someone who thinks it is acceptable to
spank a child.
One of the greatest gifts that not punishing in any way gives to us is an
ability to stay happily present in the moment. There are no resentments
carrying forward. Any problems are dealt with at once. There is no
anticipation of the future punishment tainting our next conversation after
the current problem - and they are all really tiny - has been solved. One of
the reasons sometimes given for a spanking ahead of some other punishment,
is that it deals with the negative behavior at once. Until the next
spanking, of course.
Yet here James and I are, never having to be the Enforcers (as we have no
rules), never needing to do more than help Jayn be her best self right now
in this moment (which is actually kinda huge), never having to fear that she
is being sneaky or learning to lie or that she is ever going to be afraid to
ask us for help if she is ever in any kind of trouble.
I am no longer a Christian, although I was brought up in the Church of
England. I think there is a logic schism between the concept that coerced
obedience to a parent needs to be taught and enforced (in order to represent
the relationship of the Christian and God), and the idea of adults freely
*choosing* obedience to a loving God as an act of Faith. I thought the
whole point of the Christian religion was that God has stopped needing to
punish us since sending His Son to accept the punishment on our behalf about
2000 years ago. It is the *absence* of punishment that makes the obedience
worth having.
I was taught in my Church of England high school divinity classes that bad
stuff happens to good people even though they did not bring it on through
their own actions, but that we can rise to those occasions. I don't see God
as a blackmailer. I don't see that spanking is a useful strategy for
elucidating the loving acceptance of a loving God. I don't see coerced
obedience as a stepping stone to Unschooling.
Robyn L. Coburn
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at this point in my life. If it's wrong for adults to hit each
other, then it's sending a really crappy message to children that
THEY alone are worth hitting. ugh.>>>>>
A bully is a person who uses intimidation - physical violence or the threat
of physical violence - to coerce another person to do what they want.
All the "for their own good" reasoning or good intentions in the world do
not remove the fact that parents who are using their enhanced physical
strength, or position of power, to force obedience from their children, are
using the same strategies - *behaving* in exactly the same way - as any
schoolyard bully, or gang banger, or sleazy boss using harassment to gain
"favors" from an employee.
I hold myself to a higher standard than these people. I have made a
commitment to not spanking or punishing. This is regardless of how Jayn
behaves.
I guess the great difference is that I don't consider Obedience to be a
virtue or, more importantly on this list, a useful Unschooling Principle. If
Jayn chooses not to comply with some request of mine, the lack is in *me* -
my reasoning is insufficient, my explanation is inadequate, my request is
unreasonable. Real aware and reasoned and mindful Compliance, comes from
free agreement.
If it is a case of life threatening danger, why would Jayn, never expected
to obey, not respond to a warning of danger - from a place of Trust, from
hearing my fear expressed in my voice? If the person who claims spanking
saved their child's life on two occasions would like to expand on those
instances, I would be interested in hearing about them. Be warned that I
would be looking at them with a view to seeing how the same good results
might have been reached without the spanking.
Here is a page talking about a lot of research about spanking including the
Embry study showing that spanking actually increases the number of "street
entries" by toddlers.
http://stoptherod.net/research.htm
I am sure that no-one here would advocate the use of rewards (stickers) as
Embry suggests, but rather would employ the strategy of empowering safe
explorations as has been already suggested by other posters. This also
removes the emotional challenge content of the testing behaviors. Spanking
is not the best way to ensure (as far as we can ensure) safety.
Jayn took a step onto the busy road once in a moment of excitement, but
stepped back instantly when dh said "stop" very sharply. Our response was to
give her a lot of hugs instead of any spanks.
My mother spanked me all through my childhood. She did so because she felt
powerless and had no better strategy. Appallingly, she was actually doing
better than her own father did with her. The end result was that I have no
memories of life with my mother that are not tainted by fear or anger or
resentment. None. All the joys in my life came from other people and other
places than my home. I forgive her, but I am sure that she wanted to leave a
different legacy.
I understand the powerlessness of having a child being wild at moments, and
wishing for control over her and her challenging behaviors. There have been
times when I have been angry. Jayn has told me I had a scary face, which I
saw as a call to action in myself. What I do is those instances, rather than
resorting to the primitive violent exertion of control over Jayn, is first
remind myself to breathe, mentally reiterate my commitment NEVER to spank,
and then look for the loving action I can take towards her. Or just to step
away for a moment to find the desire to show her love again.
Deciding never to spank does not have to mean looking into a yawning black
vortex of chaos and helplessness.
Those people who don't have resentments towards their parents who spanked
them are lucky. Alice Miller has written a great deal, from a psychological
point of view, about how children, even once grown, who were hurt by their
parents often go to any lengths to excuse them and deny the hurts. I was
that way when I was young also, making myself believe that I was a "naughty"
girl, who somehow deserved these punishments. I know better now.
Here is one place to find Alice Miller's writings:
http://www.thisisawar.com/AbuseChildren.htm
She is also a person who has written about a link between uncritical
obedience and the rise of fascism and the horrors of the Holocaust.
People say things like "I was spanked and I turned out OK". My response is
to say that, no, you turned out to be someone who thinks it is acceptable to
spank a child.
One of the greatest gifts that not punishing in any way gives to us is an
ability to stay happily present in the moment. There are no resentments
carrying forward. Any problems are dealt with at once. There is no
anticipation of the future punishment tainting our next conversation after
the current problem - and they are all really tiny - has been solved. One of
the reasons sometimes given for a spanking ahead of some other punishment,
is that it deals with the negative behavior at once. Until the next
spanking, of course.
Yet here James and I are, never having to be the Enforcers (as we have no
rules), never needing to do more than help Jayn be her best self right now
in this moment (which is actually kinda huge), never having to fear that she
is being sneaky or learning to lie or that she is ever going to be afraid to
ask us for help if she is ever in any kind of trouble.
I am no longer a Christian, although I was brought up in the Church of
England. I think there is a logic schism between the concept that coerced
obedience to a parent needs to be taught and enforced (in order to represent
the relationship of the Christian and God), and the idea of adults freely
*choosing* obedience to a loving God as an act of Faith. I thought the
whole point of the Christian religion was that God has stopped needing to
punish us since sending His Son to accept the punishment on our behalf about
2000 years ago. It is the *absence* of punishment that makes the obedience
worth having.
I was taught in my Church of England high school divinity classes that bad
stuff happens to good people even though they did not bring it on through
their own actions, but that we can rise to those occasions. I don't see God
as a blackmailer. I don't see that spanking is a useful strategy for
elucidating the loving acceptance of a loving God. I don't see coerced
obedience as a stepping stone to Unschooling.
Robyn L. Coburn
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[email protected]
I loved your whole post, Robyn. Thank you for taking the time to write it
all out.
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
all out.
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***I guess the great difference is that I don't consider Obedience to be
a
virtue or, more importantly on this list, a useful Unschooling
Principle.***
***She is also a person who has written about a link between uncritical
obedience and the rise of fascism and the horrors of the Holocaust.***
There was a study (of sorts) about obedience called the Milgram
experiment.
Stanley Milgram wondered if Eichmann and others could have followed
orders, against their own better judgement, to commit the atrocities of
the Holocaust. He enlisted volunteers to pretend they were in
excruciating pain while unsuspecting test subjects administered what they
thought to be electric shock. The volunteers weren't really getting a
shock but the test subjects didn't know that. Even though the test
subjects were very uncomfortable administering (what they believed to be)
painful shock they continued to do so, in ever increasing amounts,
because an authority figure was telling them to continue.
Deb Lewis
a
virtue or, more importantly on this list, a useful Unschooling
Principle.***
***She is also a person who has written about a link between uncritical
obedience and the rise of fascism and the horrors of the Holocaust.***
There was a study (of sorts) about obedience called the Milgram
experiment.
Stanley Milgram wondered if Eichmann and others could have followed
orders, against their own better judgement, to commit the atrocities of
the Holocaust. He enlisted volunteers to pretend they were in
excruciating pain while unsuspecting test subjects administered what they
thought to be electric shock. The volunteers weren't really getting a
shock but the test subjects didn't know that. Even though the test
subjects were very uncomfortable administering (what they believed to be)
painful shock they continued to do so, in ever increasing amounts,
because an authority figure was telling them to continue.
Deb Lewis