What do you think?
Mother Earth (Tyra)
Mabel
I was reading an online newsletter from Sonlight and found the following answer and question. Now that I am unschooling, this is wild to me.
Peace
Tyra
Bad Attitudes
POST: How do you handle attitude with schoolwork? My 7-year-old son gives me such grief every day over schoolwork. Every day it is the same nonsense. Can we (play, watch tv, go outside . . .)? "Not until you've done your schoolwork." Eyes roll, shoulders slouch, big sigh and groan!
So when he actually gets his books out and starts something, he tries to do the bare minimum. If I say two pages of math, he forgets and does one! Then the "I can't find my _____ book" starts! Now we have a schoolroom, and they each have a specific section on the shelves in the closet to use for their books. He is so lazy about picking his stuff up and putting it away where it belongs. We had a huge discussion this weekend about how he was going to miss out on things because he was getting extra chores until he learned to do things right the first time.
Back to schoolwork, though: every time I correct a page and realize he didn't understand the problem and ask him how to do it correctly, the tears and drama start. I don't understand it! He does very well when he wants to. He is good at math and typically gets the concepts easily. His problem comes when he rushes through and doesn't take the time to read the directions. I am so frustrated with the same things everyday. It seems to be more of an attitude problem than actually not understanding though. If he truly didn't get the concept I could understand but he is frustrated because he thought he was done and now I am going to ask him to correct the ones he missed.
My husband is complaining that all I do is fuss at them nonstop but nothing I am saying or doing seems to make a change in their behaviors. I feel like the meanest mom in the world some days, but I know they should be able to do the simplest things like pick up after themselves and follow my directions without such disagreement. I am feeling like I am drowning underneath it all and not enjoying my family the way God intended me to. Anyone have any advice?????
--beattiebunchnh
POST: I am convinced that the very most important and basic "lesson" our children must learn is obedience. Why? Because God requires that we obey Him. Time after time, our children will have to decide whether they're going to obey God or not. If they learn and practice "half-obedience" (delayed obedience or obedience with attitude) to mom and dad, are they not learning how to "half obey"? Aren't they learning to obey God that way? Do we want them to reason, "It's ok for me to do this. I'll obey God eventually"?!)
1--Start with extremely clear expectations/rules. Be sure every child knows exactly what is expected. Don't make a list a mile long. You could even start with simply one rule: Obey mom and dad immediately, completely, every time, with a good attitude. Decide beforehand what the consequences will be for NOT obeying. Explain this clearly to them beforehand. "If you CHOOSE to disobey, this will be the consequence YOU ARE CHOOSING." (Personally, I believe the "rod" is to be used most of the time. Do you know how often this is mentioned in Scripture?!?!) Whatever the consequence, make it something the child really wants to avoid. Note: "Childishness" is not the same as "disobedience." Don't punish childishness. It is exasperating to a parent, but it requires training.
2--Calmly and quietly, in love, "reprove" a child when he disobeys. Remind him of what God says. God says in the Word that children must obey their parents. It is sin not to obey. This is to obey God, too. (You want him to learn to obey God!) There is no other choice to be made. God knows what is best for him. Tell him you want him to learn to obey you so he will choose to obey God later. You are sorry he's chosen to disobey and now must bear the consequences. It is his choice. (You needn't fuss over and over at him or get mad. You explained everything ahead of time and he knew the plan.) [Ex. 20:12, Eph. 6:1, Col. 3:20] "Do all things without complaining or arguing." All children and parents should memorize this command!
3--Lead your child to confess his sin to God. Pray with him. Lead him to ask forgiveness of you as well as of God. (This is very hard for adults to do even, but it melts hearts in repentance.)
4--Calmly carry out the consequence. Remember, the Bible says that no discipline is pleasant at the time, but it has sweet rewards. Prov. 19:18 says "Discipline your son while there is hope, and do not desire his death." Prov. 13:24 says, "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him diligently." Prov. 22:15 says, "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; the rod of discipline will remove it far from him." Read Prov. 29:15, 17. Prov. 23:13-14, says "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death."
5--Love, hug, and forgive your child completely.
Repeat every time the child disobeys! Teach him that obedience is of utmost importance!
--Jannyruth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I was reading an online newsletter from Sonlight and found the following answer and question. Now that I am unschooling, this is wild to me.
Peace
Tyra
Bad Attitudes
POST: How do you handle attitude with schoolwork? My 7-year-old son gives me such grief every day over schoolwork. Every day it is the same nonsense. Can we (play, watch tv, go outside . . .)? "Not until you've done your schoolwork." Eyes roll, shoulders slouch, big sigh and groan!
So when he actually gets his books out and starts something, he tries to do the bare minimum. If I say two pages of math, he forgets and does one! Then the "I can't find my _____ book" starts! Now we have a schoolroom, and they each have a specific section on the shelves in the closet to use for their books. He is so lazy about picking his stuff up and putting it away where it belongs. We had a huge discussion this weekend about how he was going to miss out on things because he was getting extra chores until he learned to do things right the first time.
Back to schoolwork, though: every time I correct a page and realize he didn't understand the problem and ask him how to do it correctly, the tears and drama start. I don't understand it! He does very well when he wants to. He is good at math and typically gets the concepts easily. His problem comes when he rushes through and doesn't take the time to read the directions. I am so frustrated with the same things everyday. It seems to be more of an attitude problem than actually not understanding though. If he truly didn't get the concept I could understand but he is frustrated because he thought he was done and now I am going to ask him to correct the ones he missed.
My husband is complaining that all I do is fuss at them nonstop but nothing I am saying or doing seems to make a change in their behaviors. I feel like the meanest mom in the world some days, but I know they should be able to do the simplest things like pick up after themselves and follow my directions without such disagreement. I am feeling like I am drowning underneath it all and not enjoying my family the way God intended me to. Anyone have any advice?????
--beattiebunchnh
POST: I am convinced that the very most important and basic "lesson" our children must learn is obedience. Why? Because God requires that we obey Him. Time after time, our children will have to decide whether they're going to obey God or not. If they learn and practice "half-obedience" (delayed obedience or obedience with attitude) to mom and dad, are they not learning how to "half obey"? Aren't they learning to obey God that way? Do we want them to reason, "It's ok for me to do this. I'll obey God eventually"?!)
1--Start with extremely clear expectations/rules. Be sure every child knows exactly what is expected. Don't make a list a mile long. You could even start with simply one rule: Obey mom and dad immediately, completely, every time, with a good attitude. Decide beforehand what the consequences will be for NOT obeying. Explain this clearly to them beforehand. "If you CHOOSE to disobey, this will be the consequence YOU ARE CHOOSING." (Personally, I believe the "rod" is to be used most of the time. Do you know how often this is mentioned in Scripture?!?!) Whatever the consequence, make it something the child really wants to avoid. Note: "Childishness" is not the same as "disobedience." Don't punish childishness. It is exasperating to a parent, but it requires training.
2--Calmly and quietly, in love, "reprove" a child when he disobeys. Remind him of what God says. God says in the Word that children must obey their parents. It is sin not to obey. This is to obey God, too. (You want him to learn to obey God!) There is no other choice to be made. God knows what is best for him. Tell him you want him to learn to obey you so he will choose to obey God later. You are sorry he's chosen to disobey and now must bear the consequences. It is his choice. (You needn't fuss over and over at him or get mad. You explained everything ahead of time and he knew the plan.) [Ex. 20:12, Eph. 6:1, Col. 3:20] "Do all things without complaining or arguing." All children and parents should memorize this command!
3--Lead your child to confess his sin to God. Pray with him. Lead him to ask forgiveness of you as well as of God. (This is very hard for adults to do even, but it melts hearts in repentance.)
4--Calmly carry out the consequence. Remember, the Bible says that no discipline is pleasant at the time, but it has sweet rewards. Prov. 19:18 says "Discipline your son while there is hope, and do not desire his death." Prov. 13:24 says, "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him diligently." Prov. 22:15 says, "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; the rod of discipline will remove it far from him." Read Prov. 29:15, 17. Prov. 23:13-14, says "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death."
5--Love, hug, and forgive your child completely.
Repeat every time the child disobeys! Teach him that obedience is of utmost importance!
--Jannyruth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela
Gag! And the sad thing is that people read that and respond accordingly.
:(
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
:(
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
Ann
This is horrifying! .... So ignorant too. Shepard's don't use their rod to beat the sheep, they use it to gently guide the sheep. So his advice is based on a biblical interpretation that a rod is used for beating! This poor little guy just wants to play and would learn beautifully by playing. The only concept he is learning is to hate all the subject matter she is cramming down his throat.
I can tell I just don't know people like this because I am too shocked.
I am Christian ( a part of what would be a liberal segment of Christianity admittedly), but I know of no parent that would actually take that advice. The ones I know would be frantically trying other curriculum's or move to 'unit studies' or other such stuff, but they wouldn't resort to hitting their kids. In fact I get quite a few questions that start like How do you unschool, or what do you mean by unchooling? Most some interested, some even receptive.
Ann
"Mother Earth (Tyra)" <motherspirit@...> wrote:
Mabel
I was reading an online newsletter from Sonlight and found the following answer and question. Now that I am unschooling, this is wild to me.
Peace
Tyra
Bad Attitudes
POST: How do you handle attitude with schoolwork? My 7-year-old son gives me such grief every day over schoolwork. Every day it is the same nonsense. Can we (play, watch tv, go outside . . .)? "Not until you've done your schoolwork." Eyes roll, shoulders slouch, big sigh and groan!
So when he actually gets his books out and starts something, he tries to do the bare minimum. If I say two pages of math, he forgets and does one! Then the "I can't find my _____ book" starts! Now we have a schoolroom, and they each have a specific section on the shelves in the closet to use for their books. He is so lazy about picking his stuff up and putting it away where it belongs. We had a huge discussion this weekend about how he was going to miss out on things because he was getting extra chores until he learned to do things right the first time.
Back to schoolwork, though: every time I correct a page and realize he didn't understand the problem and ask him how to do it correctly, the tears and drama start. I don't understand it! He does very well when he wants to. He is good at math and typically gets the concepts easily. His problem comes when he rushes through and doesn't take the time to read the directions. I am so frustrated with the same things everyday. It seems to be more of an attitude problem than actually not understanding though. If he truly didn't get the concept I could understand but he is frustrated because he thought he was done and now I am going to ask him to correct the ones he missed.
My husband is complaining that all I do is fuss at them nonstop but nothing I am saying or doing seems to make a change in their behaviors. I feel like the meanest mom in the world some days, but I know they should be able to do the simplest things like pick up after themselves and follow my directions without such disagreement. I am feeling like I am drowning underneath it all and not enjoying my family the way God intended me to. Anyone have any advice?????
--beattiebunchnh
POST: I am convinced that the very most important and basic "lesson" our children must learn is obedience. Why? Because God requires that we obey Him. Time after time, our children will have to decide whether they're going to obey God or not. If they learn and practice "half-obedience" (delayed obedience or obedience with attitude) to mom and dad, are they not learning how to "half obey"? Aren't they learning to obey God that way? Do we want them to reason, "It's ok for me to do this. I'll obey God eventually"?!)
1--Start with extremely clear expectations/rules. Be sure every child knows exactly what is expected. Don't make a list a mile long. You could even start with simply one rule: Obey mom and dad immediately, completely, every time, with a good attitude. Decide beforehand what the consequences will be for NOT obeying. Explain this clearly to them beforehand. "If you CHOOSE to disobey, this will be the consequence YOU ARE CHOOSING." (Personally, I believe the "rod" is to be used most of the time. Do you know how often this is mentioned in Scripture?!?!) Whatever the consequence, make it something the child really wants to avoid. Note: "Childishness" is not the same as "disobedience." Don't punish childishness. It is exasperating to a parent, but it requires training.
2--Calmly and quietly, in love, "reprove" a child when he disobeys. Remind him of what God says. God says in the Word that children must obey their parents. It is sin not to obey. This is to obey God, too. (You want him to learn to obey God!) There is no other choice to be made. God knows what is best for him. Tell him you want him to learn to obey you so he will choose to obey God later. You are sorry he's chosen to disobey and now must bear the consequences. It is his choice. (You needn't fuss over and over at him or get mad. You explained everything ahead of time and he knew the plan.) [Ex. 20:12, Eph. 6:1, Col. 3:20] "Do all things without complaining or arguing." All children and parents should memorize this command!
3--Lead your child to confess his sin to God. Pray with him. Lead him to ask forgiveness of you as well as of God. (This is very hard for adults to do even, but it melts hearts in repentance.)
4--Calmly carry out the consequence. Remember, the Bible says that no discipline is pleasant at the time, but it has sweet rewards. Prov. 19:18 says "Discipline your son while there is hope, and do not desire his death." Prov. 13:24 says, "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him diligently." Prov. 22:15 says, "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; the rod of discipline will remove it far from him." Read Prov. 29:15, 17. Prov. 23:13-14, says "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death."
5--Love, hug, and forgive your child completely.
Repeat every time the child disobeys! Teach him that obedience is of utmost importance!
--Jannyruth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I can tell I just don't know people like this because I am too shocked.
I am Christian ( a part of what would be a liberal segment of Christianity admittedly), but I know of no parent that would actually take that advice. The ones I know would be frantically trying other curriculum's or move to 'unit studies' or other such stuff, but they wouldn't resort to hitting their kids. In fact I get quite a few questions that start like How do you unschool, or what do you mean by unchooling? Most some interested, some even receptive.
Ann
"Mother Earth (Tyra)" <motherspirit@...> wrote:
Mabel
I was reading an online newsletter from Sonlight and found the following answer and question. Now that I am unschooling, this is wild to me.
Peace
Tyra
Bad Attitudes
POST: How do you handle attitude with schoolwork? My 7-year-old son gives me such grief every day over schoolwork. Every day it is the same nonsense. Can we (play, watch tv, go outside . . .)? "Not until you've done your schoolwork." Eyes roll, shoulders slouch, big sigh and groan!
So when he actually gets his books out and starts something, he tries to do the bare minimum. If I say two pages of math, he forgets and does one! Then the "I can't find my _____ book" starts! Now we have a schoolroom, and they each have a specific section on the shelves in the closet to use for their books. He is so lazy about picking his stuff up and putting it away where it belongs. We had a huge discussion this weekend about how he was going to miss out on things because he was getting extra chores until he learned to do things right the first time.
Back to schoolwork, though: every time I correct a page and realize he didn't understand the problem and ask him how to do it correctly, the tears and drama start. I don't understand it! He does very well when he wants to. He is good at math and typically gets the concepts easily. His problem comes when he rushes through and doesn't take the time to read the directions. I am so frustrated with the same things everyday. It seems to be more of an attitude problem than actually not understanding though. If he truly didn't get the concept I could understand but he is frustrated because he thought he was done and now I am going to ask him to correct the ones he missed.
My husband is complaining that all I do is fuss at them nonstop but nothing I am saying or doing seems to make a change in their behaviors. I feel like the meanest mom in the world some days, but I know they should be able to do the simplest things like pick up after themselves and follow my directions without such disagreement. I am feeling like I am drowning underneath it all and not enjoying my family the way God intended me to. Anyone have any advice?????
--beattiebunchnh
POST: I am convinced that the very most important and basic "lesson" our children must learn is obedience. Why? Because God requires that we obey Him. Time after time, our children will have to decide whether they're going to obey God or not. If they learn and practice "half-obedience" (delayed obedience or obedience with attitude) to mom and dad, are they not learning how to "half obey"? Aren't they learning to obey God that way? Do we want them to reason, "It's ok for me to do this. I'll obey God eventually"?!)
1--Start with extremely clear expectations/rules. Be sure every child knows exactly what is expected. Don't make a list a mile long. You could even start with simply one rule: Obey mom and dad immediately, completely, every time, with a good attitude. Decide beforehand what the consequences will be for NOT obeying. Explain this clearly to them beforehand. "If you CHOOSE to disobey, this will be the consequence YOU ARE CHOOSING." (Personally, I believe the "rod" is to be used most of the time. Do you know how often this is mentioned in Scripture?!?!) Whatever the consequence, make it something the child really wants to avoid. Note: "Childishness" is not the same as "disobedience." Don't punish childishness. It is exasperating to a parent, but it requires training.
2--Calmly and quietly, in love, "reprove" a child when he disobeys. Remind him of what God says. God says in the Word that children must obey their parents. It is sin not to obey. This is to obey God, too. (You want him to learn to obey God!) There is no other choice to be made. God knows what is best for him. Tell him you want him to learn to obey you so he will choose to obey God later. You are sorry he's chosen to disobey and now must bear the consequences. It is his choice. (You needn't fuss over and over at him or get mad. You explained everything ahead of time and he knew the plan.) [Ex. 20:12, Eph. 6:1, Col. 3:20] "Do all things without complaining or arguing." All children and parents should memorize this command!
3--Lead your child to confess his sin to God. Pray with him. Lead him to ask forgiveness of you as well as of God. (This is very hard for adults to do even, but it melts hearts in repentance.)
4--Calmly carry out the consequence. Remember, the Bible says that no discipline is pleasant at the time, but it has sweet rewards. Prov. 19:18 says "Discipline your son while there is hope, and do not desire his death." Prov. 13:24 says, "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him diligently." Prov. 22:15 says, "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; the rod of discipline will remove it far from him." Read Prov. 29:15, 17. Prov. 23:13-14, says "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death."
5--Love, hug, and forgive your child completely.
Repeat every time the child disobeys! Teach him that obedience is of utmost importance!
--Jannyruth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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---------------------------------
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Visit your group "unschoolingbasics" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
patricia tidmore
This is so sad.This poor baby!
Tricia
"Mother Earth (Tyra)" <motherspirit@...> wrote:
Mabel
I was reading an online newsletter from Sonlight and found the following answer and question. Now that I am unschooling, this is wild to me.
Peace
Tyra
Bad Attitudes
POST: How do you handle attitude with schoolwork? My 7-year-old son gives me such grief every day over schoolwork. Every day it is the same nonsense. Can we (play, watch tv, go outside . . .)? "Not until you've done your schoolwork." Eyes roll, shoulders slouch, big sigh and groan!
So when he actually gets his books out and starts something, he tries to do the bare minimum. If I say two pages of math, he forgets and does one! Then the "I can't find my _____ book" starts! Now we have a schoolroom, and they each have a specific section on the shelves in the closet to use for their books. He is so lazy about picking his stuff up and putting it away where it belongs. We had a huge discussion this weekend about how he was going to miss out on things because he was getting extra chores until he learned to do things right the first time.
Back to schoolwork, though: every time I correct a page and realize he didn't understand the problem and ask him how to do it correctly, the tears and drama start. I don't understand it! He does very well when he wants to. He is good at math and typically gets the concepts easily. His problem comes when he rushes through and doesn't take the time to read the directions. I am so frustrated with the same things everyday. It seems to be more of an attitude problem than actually not understanding though. If he truly didn't get the concept I could understand but he is frustrated because he thought he was done and now I am going to ask him to correct the ones he missed.
My husband is complaining that all I do is fuss at them nonstop but nothing I am saying or doing seems to make a change in their behaviors. I feel like the meanest mom in the world some days, but I know they should be able to do the simplest things like pick up after themselves and follow my directions without such disagreement. I am feeling like I am drowning underneath it all and not enjoying my family the way God intended me to. Anyone have any advice?????
--beattiebunchnh
POST: I am convinced that the very most important and basic "lesson" our children must learn is obedience. Why? Because God requires that we obey Him. Time after time, our children will have to decide whether they're going to obey God or not. If they learn and practice "half-obedience" (delayed obedience or obedience with attitude) to mom and dad, are they not learning how to "half obey"? Aren't they learning to obey God that way? Do we want them to reason, "It's ok for me to do this. I'll obey God eventually"?!)
1--Start with extremely clear expectations/rules. Be sure every child knows exactly what is expected. Don't make a list a mile long. You could even start with simply one rule: Obey mom and dad immediately, completely, every time, with a good attitude. Decide beforehand what the consequences will be for NOT obeying. Explain this clearly to them beforehand. "If you CHOOSE to disobey, this will be the consequence YOU ARE CHOOSING." (Personally, I believe the "rod" is to be used most of the time. Do you know how often this is mentioned in Scripture?!?!) Whatever the consequence, make it something the child really wants to avoid. Note: "Childishness" is not the same as "disobedience." Don't punish childishness. It is exasperating to a parent, but it requires training.
2--Calmly and quietly, in love, "reprove" a child when he disobeys. Remind him of what God says. God says in the Word that children must obey their parents. It is sin not to obey. This is to obey God, too. (You want him to learn to obey God!) There is no other choice to be made. God knows what is best for him. Tell him you want him to learn to obey you so he will choose to obey God later. You are sorry he's chosen to disobey and now must bear the consequences. It is his choice. (You needn't fuss over and over at him or get mad. You explained everything ahead of time and he knew the plan.) [Ex. 20:12, Eph. 6:1, Col. 3:20] "Do all things without complaining or arguing." All children and parents should memorize this command!
3--Lead your child to confess his sin to God. Pray with him. Lead him to ask forgiveness of you as well as of God. (This is very hard for adults to do even, but it melts hearts in repentance.)
4--Calmly carry out the consequence. Remember, the Bible says that no discipline is pleasant at the time, but it has sweet rewards. Prov. 19:18 says "Discipline your son while there is hope, and do not desire his death." Prov. 13:24 says, "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him diligently." Prov. 22:15 says, "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; the rod of discipline will remove it far from him." Read Prov. 29:15, 17. Prov. 23:13-14, says "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death."
5--Love, hug, and forgive your child completely.
Repeat every time the child disobeys! Teach him that obedience is of utmost importance!
--Jannyruth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SPONSORED LINKS
Secondary school education Graduate school education Home school education Graduate school education online High school education Chicago school education
---------------------------------
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Visit your group "unschoolingbasics" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
"I am learning al the time,the tombstone will be my diploma"-Eartha Kitt
Do not follow where the path may lead.Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail...
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tricia
"Mother Earth (Tyra)" <motherspirit@...> wrote:
Mabel
I was reading an online newsletter from Sonlight and found the following answer and question. Now that I am unschooling, this is wild to me.
Peace
Tyra
Bad Attitudes
POST: How do you handle attitude with schoolwork? My 7-year-old son gives me such grief every day over schoolwork. Every day it is the same nonsense. Can we (play, watch tv, go outside . . .)? "Not until you've done your schoolwork." Eyes roll, shoulders slouch, big sigh and groan!
So when he actually gets his books out and starts something, he tries to do the bare minimum. If I say two pages of math, he forgets and does one! Then the "I can't find my _____ book" starts! Now we have a schoolroom, and they each have a specific section on the shelves in the closet to use for their books. He is so lazy about picking his stuff up and putting it away where it belongs. We had a huge discussion this weekend about how he was going to miss out on things because he was getting extra chores until he learned to do things right the first time.
Back to schoolwork, though: every time I correct a page and realize he didn't understand the problem and ask him how to do it correctly, the tears and drama start. I don't understand it! He does very well when he wants to. He is good at math and typically gets the concepts easily. His problem comes when he rushes through and doesn't take the time to read the directions. I am so frustrated with the same things everyday. It seems to be more of an attitude problem than actually not understanding though. If he truly didn't get the concept I could understand but he is frustrated because he thought he was done and now I am going to ask him to correct the ones he missed.
My husband is complaining that all I do is fuss at them nonstop but nothing I am saying or doing seems to make a change in their behaviors. I feel like the meanest mom in the world some days, but I know they should be able to do the simplest things like pick up after themselves and follow my directions without such disagreement. I am feeling like I am drowning underneath it all and not enjoying my family the way God intended me to. Anyone have any advice?????
--beattiebunchnh
POST: I am convinced that the very most important and basic "lesson" our children must learn is obedience. Why? Because God requires that we obey Him. Time after time, our children will have to decide whether they're going to obey God or not. If they learn and practice "half-obedience" (delayed obedience or obedience with attitude) to mom and dad, are they not learning how to "half obey"? Aren't they learning to obey God that way? Do we want them to reason, "It's ok for me to do this. I'll obey God eventually"?!)
1--Start with extremely clear expectations/rules. Be sure every child knows exactly what is expected. Don't make a list a mile long. You could even start with simply one rule: Obey mom and dad immediately, completely, every time, with a good attitude. Decide beforehand what the consequences will be for NOT obeying. Explain this clearly to them beforehand. "If you CHOOSE to disobey, this will be the consequence YOU ARE CHOOSING." (Personally, I believe the "rod" is to be used most of the time. Do you know how often this is mentioned in Scripture?!?!) Whatever the consequence, make it something the child really wants to avoid. Note: "Childishness" is not the same as "disobedience." Don't punish childishness. It is exasperating to a parent, but it requires training.
2--Calmly and quietly, in love, "reprove" a child when he disobeys. Remind him of what God says. God says in the Word that children must obey their parents. It is sin not to obey. This is to obey God, too. (You want him to learn to obey God!) There is no other choice to be made. God knows what is best for him. Tell him you want him to learn to obey you so he will choose to obey God later. You are sorry he's chosen to disobey and now must bear the consequences. It is his choice. (You needn't fuss over and over at him or get mad. You explained everything ahead of time and he knew the plan.) [Ex. 20:12, Eph. 6:1, Col. 3:20] "Do all things without complaining or arguing." All children and parents should memorize this command!
3--Lead your child to confess his sin to God. Pray with him. Lead him to ask forgiveness of you as well as of God. (This is very hard for adults to do even, but it melts hearts in repentance.)
4--Calmly carry out the consequence. Remember, the Bible says that no discipline is pleasant at the time, but it has sweet rewards. Prov. 19:18 says "Discipline your son while there is hope, and do not desire his death." Prov. 13:24 says, "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him diligently." Prov. 22:15 says, "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; the rod of discipline will remove it far from him." Read Prov. 29:15, 17. Prov. 23:13-14, says "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death."
5--Love, hug, and forgive your child completely.
Repeat every time the child disobeys! Teach him that obedience is of utmost importance!
--Jannyruth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Ren Allen
"We had a
huge discussion this weekend about how he was going to miss out on
things
because he was getting extra chores until he learned to do things
right the
first time."
And they'll wonder why he hates them when he's a teen, or why he wants
to run away. duh.
It's child abuse on every level and it's sick.
I wonder if that Mom would be glad she focused on forcing her child to
obey instantly, causing much stress every day of their lives, if she
lost that child today. What a horrible way to live.
Ren
huge discussion this weekend about how he was going to miss out on
things
because he was getting extra chores until he learned to do things
right the
first time."
And they'll wonder why he hates them when he's a teen, or why he wants
to run away. duh.
It's child abuse on every level and it's sick.
I wonder if that Mom would be glad she focused on forcing her child to
obey instantly, causing much stress every day of their lives, if she
lost that child today. What a horrible way to live.
Ren
Robyn Coburn
<<<<POST: How do you handle attitude with schoolwork? My 7-year-old son
gives me such grief every day over schoolwork. Every day it is the same
nonsense. Can we (play, watch tv, go outside . . .)? "Not until you've done
your schoolwork." Eyes roll, shoulders slouch, big sigh and groan!>>>>
I think it is a shame that this mother is not posting this question to an
Unschooling list where she actually might receive the kind of compassionate
suggestions that would enable her to enjoy being a parent again, since that
is her wish.
The replier is in a sense hijacking a question about education and turning
it into a polemic about Obedience. The suggestion, of beating the spirit out
of her son, could so easily backfire to result in a rebellious person -
certainly not someone who would enjoy learning.
This poor kid is only one year older than Jayn. There are moments when I
think I would like obedience - how simple it would be for me if all I had to
say was "sit" and Jayn would immediately stop jumping and dancing - except
that in a world where I had that kind of fear based power over her, why
would she want to dance?
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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gives me such grief every day over schoolwork. Every day it is the same
nonsense. Can we (play, watch tv, go outside . . .)? "Not until you've done
your schoolwork." Eyes roll, shoulders slouch, big sigh and groan!>>>>
I think it is a shame that this mother is not posting this question to an
Unschooling list where she actually might receive the kind of compassionate
suggestions that would enable her to enjoy being a parent again, since that
is her wish.
The replier is in a sense hijacking a question about education and turning
it into a polemic about Obedience. The suggestion, of beating the spirit out
of her son, could so easily backfire to result in a rebellious person -
certainly not someone who would enjoy learning.
This poor kid is only one year older than Jayn. There are moments when I
think I would like obedience - how simple it would be for me if all I had to
say was "sit" and Jayn would immediately stop jumping and dancing - except
that in a world where I had that kind of fear based power over her, why
would she want to dance?
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/195 - Release Date: 12/8/2005
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/9/2005 7:45:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
motherspirit@... writes:
I was reading an online newsletter from Sonlight and found the following
answer and question. Now that I am unschooling, this is wild to me.
~~~~~~~~~~
OMG, that is just AWFUL! Poor kiddos... I can't IMAGINE doing that to my
children. Not at all... and then to advise someone to beat their child?? I'm not
religious, nor was I raised that way, so I am not extremely familiar withe
the Bible, but, I highly doubt "God" intended for parents to abuse their kids
to force them into compliance. If that's the case, that's not a god I'd want
to be worshipping. I think some people take symbolism too literally, and take
things out of context.
Jenny
Unschooling in Greenfield, MA
Danny (12-1-99), Kelsey (11-1-01) and Evelyn (5-19-04)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The important thing is not so much that every child should be taught, as
that every child should be given the wish to learn. ~John Lubbock
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
motherspirit@... writes:
I was reading an online newsletter from Sonlight and found the following
answer and question. Now that I am unschooling, this is wild to me.
~~~~~~~~~~
OMG, that is just AWFUL! Poor kiddos... I can't IMAGINE doing that to my
children. Not at all... and then to advise someone to beat their child?? I'm not
religious, nor was I raised that way, so I am not extremely familiar withe
the Bible, but, I highly doubt "God" intended for parents to abuse their kids
to force them into compliance. If that's the case, that's not a god I'd want
to be worshipping. I think some people take symbolism too literally, and take
things out of context.
Jenny
Unschooling in Greenfield, MA
Danny (12-1-99), Kelsey (11-1-01) and Evelyn (5-19-04)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The important thing is not so much that every child should be taught, as
that every child should be given the wish to learn. ~John Lubbock
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I wonder if these people ever bother to read the NEW Testament....you know,
where Jesus teaches unconditional love?
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
where Jesus teaches unconditional love?
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yolonda Hicks
As a Christian who reads and tries to live by the Bible as a whole, I have to both agree and disagree with both sides of this argument. The Bible, even in the New Testament (which the original post referred to but did not quote), does require obedience from children but also places requirements on the parents. (The verses I'm quoting below are from the NIrV--translation written to about a "3rd-grade" level--as my daughter's Bible was the one close at hand.)
Ephesians 6:1-2 states, "Children, obey your parents as believers in the Lord. Obey them because it's the right thing to do. Scripture says, 'Honor your father and mother.' That is the first commandment that has a promise." However, verse 4 says, "Fathers [and mothers], don't make your children angry. Instead, train them and teach them the ways of the Lords as you raise them."
Colossians 3:20 states, "Children, obey your parents in everything. That pleases the Lord." It is immediately followed, though, by verse 21 stating, "Fathers [and mothers], don't make your children bitter. If you do, they will lose hope."
For those of us who believe the Bible, we are told that children need to obey, but we are also told that we have the responsibility to make the right rules/commands. God's rules for us are to protect us and for our good, so our rules should be for our children (not because it makes our lives easier or we just like things that way). My children are not "perfect models of obedience", even to good rules, but the fact that they have been trained in the importance of obedience has literally saved my son's life twice.
I also do not believe that corporal punishment, when used wisely and carefully, is abuse. The shepherd's rod was used to gently guide the sheep, but, in certain circumstances when a sheep would continue to do something which endangered it, it was also used to strike the sheep. I was taught that spanking is the same, not to be used for every little offense (that's where guidance, related consequences, or sometimes even rewards for the opposite behavior come into play) but reserved for serious problems, as a child who continually goes out into the street (or plays with fire, etc.) regardless of all correction methods tried. At that point, an appropriately done spanking (on the fatty tissue of the buttocks and by an emotionally-controlled parent, no anger) gives a reminder to the child that stings but does not injure, which is highly preferable to a dead child. Usually once does the trick; I've never met or heard about a "normal" child who required more than twice to correct a
situation like this--and you don't use corporal punishment at all with a mentally handicapped child, or one who has been previously abused.
However, I think forcing that poor child to do two pages of math is probably pushing the limit. Even when we were completely school-at-home, my son would have had an emotional breakdown if I'd expected that of him (and he LIKES math). There's another verse in the Bible that talks about training up a child in the way he/she should go, literally meaning according to his/her bent (the way God made the child--personality, talents, etc.). If this mother was truly paying attention to how her son is wired, she would be looking for other ways to help him learn.
Just my two cents worth,
Yolonda Hicks
---------------------------------
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ephesians 6:1-2 states, "Children, obey your parents as believers in the Lord. Obey them because it's the right thing to do. Scripture says, 'Honor your father and mother.' That is the first commandment that has a promise." However, verse 4 says, "Fathers [and mothers], don't make your children angry. Instead, train them and teach them the ways of the Lords as you raise them."
Colossians 3:20 states, "Children, obey your parents in everything. That pleases the Lord." It is immediately followed, though, by verse 21 stating, "Fathers [and mothers], don't make your children bitter. If you do, they will lose hope."
For those of us who believe the Bible, we are told that children need to obey, but we are also told that we have the responsibility to make the right rules/commands. God's rules for us are to protect us and for our good, so our rules should be for our children (not because it makes our lives easier or we just like things that way). My children are not "perfect models of obedience", even to good rules, but the fact that they have been trained in the importance of obedience has literally saved my son's life twice.
I also do not believe that corporal punishment, when used wisely and carefully, is abuse. The shepherd's rod was used to gently guide the sheep, but, in certain circumstances when a sheep would continue to do something which endangered it, it was also used to strike the sheep. I was taught that spanking is the same, not to be used for every little offense (that's where guidance, related consequences, or sometimes even rewards for the opposite behavior come into play) but reserved for serious problems, as a child who continually goes out into the street (or plays with fire, etc.) regardless of all correction methods tried. At that point, an appropriately done spanking (on the fatty tissue of the buttocks and by an emotionally-controlled parent, no anger) gives a reminder to the child that stings but does not injure, which is highly preferable to a dead child. Usually once does the trick; I've never met or heard about a "normal" child who required more than twice to correct a
situation like this--and you don't use corporal punishment at all with a mentally handicapped child, or one who has been previously abused.
However, I think forcing that poor child to do two pages of math is probably pushing the limit. Even when we were completely school-at-home, my son would have had an emotional breakdown if I'd expected that of him (and he LIKES math). There's another verse in the Bible that talks about training up a child in the way he/she should go, literally meaning according to his/her bent (the way God made the child--personality, talents, etc.). If this mother was truly paying attention to how her son is wired, she would be looking for other ways to help him learn.
Just my two cents worth,
Yolonda Hicks
---------------------------------
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
camden
I had my first child when I was 16 & tried to raise him the way my parents
did because I thought that was the right and only way. I did spank, as did
my parents.
Do I regret this? Oh Yes !! I don't think any good comes of using corporal
punishment. I feel it only produces fear. I want my kids to respect & love
me, not fear me. When my kids make a mistake big or small, I want to know
that they feel they can come to me and not fear what will happen if they do.
My parents never changed in their belief of spanking, I started out
believing this and changed, my hope is my kids will choose not to go down
the "spanking" path to begin with.
So thats what I think.
Carol
did because I thought that was the right and only way. I did spank, as did
my parents.
Do I regret this? Oh Yes !! I don't think any good comes of using corporal
punishment. I feel it only produces fear. I want my kids to respect & love
me, not fear me. When my kids make a mistake big or small, I want to know
that they feel they can come to me and not fear what will happen if they do.
My parents never changed in their belief of spanking, I started out
believing this and changed, my hope is my kids will choose not to go down
the "spanking" path to begin with.
So thats what I think.
Carol
----- Original Message -----
From: "Yolonda Hicks" <books_music_birds@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] What do you think?
> As a Christian who reads and tries to live by the Bible as a whole, I have
> to both agree and disagree with both sides of this argument. The Bible,
> even in the New Testament (which the original post referred to but did not
> quote), does require obedience from children but also places requirements
> on the parents. (The verses I'm quoting below are from the
> NIrV--translation written to about a "3rd-grade" level--as my daughter's
> Bible was the one close at hand.)
>
> Ephesians 6:1-2 states, "Children, obey your parents as believers in the
> Lord. Obey them because it's the right thing to do. Scripture says,
> 'Honor your father and mother.' That is the first commandment that has a
> promise." However, verse 4 says, "Fathers [and mothers], don't make your
> children angry. Instead, train them and teach them the ways of the Lords
> as you raise them."
>
> Colossians 3:20 states, "Children, obey your parents in everything. That
> pleases the Lord." It is immediately followed, though, by verse 21
> stating, "Fathers [and mothers], don't make your children bitter. If you
> do, they will lose hope."
>
> For those of us who believe the Bible, we are told that children need to
> obey, but we are also told that we have the responsibility to make the
> right rules/commands. God's rules for us are to protect us and for our
> good, so our rules should be for our children (not because it makes our
> lives easier or we just like things that way). My children are not
> "perfect models of obedience", even to good rules, but the fact that they
> have been trained in the importance of obedience has literally saved my
> son's life twice.
>
> I also do not believe that corporal punishment, when used wisely and
> carefully, is abuse. The shepherd's rod was used to gently guide the
> sheep, but, in certain circumstances when a sheep would continue to do
> something which endangered it, it was also used to strike the sheep. I was
> taught that spanking is the same, not to be used for every little offense
> (that's where guidance, related consequences, or sometimes even rewards
> for the opposite behavior come into play) but reserved for serious
> problems, as a child who continually goes out into the street (or plays
> with fire, etc.) regardless of all correction methods tried. At that
> point, an appropriately done spanking (on the fatty tissue of the buttocks
> and by an emotionally-controlled parent, no anger) gives a reminder to the
> child that stings but does not injure, which is highly preferable to a
> dead child. Usually once does the trick; I've never met or heard about a
> "normal" child who required more than twice to correct a
> situation like this--and you don't use corporal punishment at all with a
> mentally handicapped child, or one who has been previously abused.
>
> However, I think forcing that poor child to do two pages of math is
> probably pushing the limit. Even when we were completely school-at-home,
> my son would have had an emotional breakdown if I'd expected that of him
> (and he LIKES math). There's another verse in the Bible that talks about
> training up a child in the way he/she should go, literally meaning
> according to his/her bent (the way God made the child--personality,
> talents, etc.). If this mother was truly paying attention to how her son
> is wired, she would be looking for other ways to help him learn.
>
> Just my two cents worth,
> Yolonda Hicks
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Shopping
> Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Anastasia Hall
Yolanda, I have my Bible open and was just typing the same thing and lost the post before I could get it sent. The Sonlight people missed the part about fathers not provoking their children unto wrath, lest they become discouraged, didn't they? I would think Mom nagging and hounding me to do math papers would cause me to be wrathful and discouraged. Personally, fear of reproof causes resentment in me leading to disobedience, and love brings me to obedience.
Anastasia
LOL- I'm listening to Dr. Phil on the TV in the other room saying that 75% of kids whose parents push them too hard in music or sports drop out of the activity and never pick it up again.... Fitting?
Yolonda Hicks <books_music_birds@...> wrote:
As a Christian who reads and tries to live by the Bible as a whole, I have to both agree and disagree with both sides of this argument. The Bible, even in the New Testament (which the original post referred to but did not quote), does require obedience from children but also places requirements on the parents. (The verses I'm quoting below are from the NIrV--translation written to about a "3rd-grade" level--as my daughter's Bible was the one close at hand.)
Ephesians 6:1-2 states, "Children, obey your parents as believers in the Lord. Obey them because it's the right thing to do. Scripture says, 'Honor your father and mother.' That is the first commandment that has a promise." However, verse 4 says, "Fathers [and mothers], don't make your children angry. Instead, train them and teach them the ways of the Lords as you raise them."
Colossians 3:20 states, "Children, obey your parents in everything. That pleases the Lord." It is immediately followed, though, by verse 21 stating, "Fathers [and mothers], don't make your children bitter. If you do, they will lose hope."
For those of us who believe the Bible, we are told that children need to obey, but we are also told that we have the responsibility to make the right rules/commands. God's rules for us are to protect us and for our good, so our rules should be for our children (not because it makes our lives easier or we just like things that way). My children are not "perfect models of obedience", even to good rules, but the fact that they have been trained in the importance of obedience has literally saved my son's life twice.
I also do not believe that corporal punishment, when used wisely and carefully, is abuse. The shepherd's rod was used to gently guide the sheep, but, in certain circumstances when a sheep would continue to do something which endangered it, it was also used to strike the sheep. I was taught that spanking is the same, not to be used for every little offense (that's where guidance, related consequences, or sometimes even rewards for the opposite behavior come into play) but reserved for serious problems, as a child who continually goes out into the street (or plays with fire, etc.) regardless of all correction methods tried. At that point, an appropriately done spanking (on the fatty tissue of the buttocks and by an emotionally-controlled parent, no anger) gives a reminder to the child that stings but does not injure, which is highly preferable to a dead child. Usually once does the trick; I've never met or heard about a "normal" child who required more than twice to correct a
situation like this--and you don't use corporal punishment at all with a mentally handicapped child, or one who has been previously abused.
However, I think forcing that poor child to do two pages of math is probably pushing the limit. Even when we were completely school-at-home, my son would have had an emotional breakdown if I'd expected that of him (and he LIKES math). There's another verse in the Bible that talks about training up a child in the way he/she should go, literally meaning according to his/her bent (the way God made the child--personality, talents, etc.). If this mother was truly paying attention to how her son is wired, she would be looking for other ways to help him learn.
Just my two cents worth,
Yolonda Hicks
---------------------------------
---------------------------------
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Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
Visit your group "unschoolingbasics" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Anastasia
LOL- I'm listening to Dr. Phil on the TV in the other room saying that 75% of kids whose parents push them too hard in music or sports drop out of the activity and never pick it up again.... Fitting?
Yolonda Hicks <books_music_birds@...> wrote:
As a Christian who reads and tries to live by the Bible as a whole, I have to both agree and disagree with both sides of this argument. The Bible, even in the New Testament (which the original post referred to but did not quote), does require obedience from children but also places requirements on the parents. (The verses I'm quoting below are from the NIrV--translation written to about a "3rd-grade" level--as my daughter's Bible was the one close at hand.)
Ephesians 6:1-2 states, "Children, obey your parents as believers in the Lord. Obey them because it's the right thing to do. Scripture says, 'Honor your father and mother.' That is the first commandment that has a promise." However, verse 4 says, "Fathers [and mothers], don't make your children angry. Instead, train them and teach them the ways of the Lords as you raise them."
Colossians 3:20 states, "Children, obey your parents in everything. That pleases the Lord." It is immediately followed, though, by verse 21 stating, "Fathers [and mothers], don't make your children bitter. If you do, they will lose hope."
For those of us who believe the Bible, we are told that children need to obey, but we are also told that we have the responsibility to make the right rules/commands. God's rules for us are to protect us and for our good, so our rules should be for our children (not because it makes our lives easier or we just like things that way). My children are not "perfect models of obedience", even to good rules, but the fact that they have been trained in the importance of obedience has literally saved my son's life twice.
I also do not believe that corporal punishment, when used wisely and carefully, is abuse. The shepherd's rod was used to gently guide the sheep, but, in certain circumstances when a sheep would continue to do something which endangered it, it was also used to strike the sheep. I was taught that spanking is the same, not to be used for every little offense (that's where guidance, related consequences, or sometimes even rewards for the opposite behavior come into play) but reserved for serious problems, as a child who continually goes out into the street (or plays with fire, etc.) regardless of all correction methods tried. At that point, an appropriately done spanking (on the fatty tissue of the buttocks and by an emotionally-controlled parent, no anger) gives a reminder to the child that stings but does not injure, which is highly preferable to a dead child. Usually once does the trick; I've never met or heard about a "normal" child who required more than twice to correct a
situation like this--and you don't use corporal punishment at all with a mentally handicapped child, or one who has been previously abused.
However, I think forcing that poor child to do two pages of math is probably pushing the limit. Even when we were completely school-at-home, my son would have had an emotional breakdown if I'd expected that of him (and he LIKES math). There's another verse in the Bible that talks about training up a child in the way he/she should go, literally meaning according to his/her bent (the way God made the child--personality, talents, etc.). If this mother was truly paying attention to how her son is wired, she would be looking for other ways to help him learn.
Just my two cents worth,
Yolonda Hicks
---------------------------------
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Shopping
Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
Visit your group "unschoolingbasics" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
April
Sadly, I do know parents that would give or follow this advice. The
advantage of being a parent of older kids is that I am in a position to
offer an alternative view of Biblical parenting. Some see it as a breath of
fresh air, others see it as blasphemy. I just keep doing what I think is
right for us and let the cards fall where they may.
~April
Mom to Kate-19, Lisa-16, Karl-14, & Ben-10.
*REACH Homeschool Grp, an inclusive group in Oakland County
<http://www.reachhomeschool.com> www.reachhomeschool.com
* Michigan Unschoolers
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/
*Check out Chuck's art! <http://www.artkunst23.com/>
http://www.artkunst23.com
"Know where to find the information and how to use it - That's the secret of
success."
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ann
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 9:15 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] What do you think?
This is horrifying! .... So ignorant too. Shepard's don't use their rod to
beat the sheep, they use it to gently guide the sheep. So his advice is
based on a biblical interpretation that a rod is used for beating! This
poor little guy just wants to play and would learn beautifully by playing.
The only concept he is learning is to hate all the subject matter she is
cramming down his throat.
I can tell I just don't know people like this because I am too shocked.
I am Christian ( a part of what would be a liberal segment of Christianity
admittedly), but I know of no parent that would actually take that advice.
The ones I know would be frantically trying other curriculum's or move to
'unit studies' or other such stuff, but they wouldn't resort to hitting
their kids. In fact I get quite a few questions that start like How do you
unschool, or what do you mean by unchooling? Most some interested, some
even receptive.
Ann
"Mother Earth (Tyra)" <motherspirit@...> wrote:
Mabel
I was reading an online newsletter from Sonlight and found the following
answer and question. Now that I am unschooling, this is wild to me.
Peace
Tyra
Bad Attitudes
POST: How do you handle attitude with schoolwork? My 7-year-old son gives me
such grief every day over schoolwork. Every day it is the same nonsense. Can
we (play, watch tv, go outside . . .)? "Not until you've done your
schoolwork." Eyes roll, shoulders slouch, big sigh and groan!
So when he actually gets his books out and starts something, he tries to do
the bare minimum. If I say two pages of math, he forgets and does one! Then
the "I can't find my _____ book" starts! Now we have a schoolroom, and they
each have a specific section on the shelves in the closet to use for their
books. He is so lazy about picking his stuff up and putting it away where it
belongs. We had a huge discussion this weekend about how he was going to
miss out on things because he was getting extra chores until he learned to
do things right the first time.
Back to schoolwork, though: every time I correct a page and realize he
didn't understand the problem and ask him how to do it correctly, the tears
and drama start. I don't understand it! He does very well when he wants to.
He is good at math and typically gets the concepts easily. His problem comes
when he rushes through and doesn't take the time to read the directions. I
am so frustrated with the same things everyday. It seems to be more of an
attitude problem than actually not understanding though. If he truly didn't
get the concept I could understand but he is frustrated because he thought
he was done and now I am going to ask him to correct the ones he missed.
My husband is complaining that all I do is fuss at them nonstop but nothing
I am saying or doing seems to make a change in their behaviors. I feel like
the meanest mom in the world some days, but I know they should be able to do
the simplest things like pick up after themselves and follow my directions
without such disagreement. I am feeling like I am drowning underneath it all
and not enjoying my family the way God intended me to. Anyone have any
advice?????
--beattiebunchnh
POST: I am convinced that the very most important and basic "lesson" our
children must learn is obedience. Why? Because God requires that we obey
Him. Time after time, our children will have to decide whether they're going
to obey God or not. If they learn and practice "half-obedience" (delayed
obedience or obedience with attitude) to mom and dad, are they not learning
how to "half obey"? Aren't they learning to obey God that way? Do we want
them to reason, "It's ok for me to do this. I'll obey God eventually"?!)
1--Start with extremely clear expectations/rules. Be sure every child knows
exactly what is expected. Don't make a list a mile long. You could even
start with simply one rule: Obey mom and dad immediately, completely, every
time, with a good attitude. Decide beforehand what the consequences will be
for NOT obeying. Explain this clearly to them beforehand. "If you CHOOSE to
disobey, this will be the consequence YOU ARE CHOOSING." (Personally, I
believe the "rod" is to be used most of the time. Do you know how often this
is mentioned in Scripture?!?!) Whatever the consequence, make it something
the child really wants to avoid. Note: "Childishness" is not the same as
"disobedience." Don't punish childishness. It is exasperating to a parent,
but it requires training.
2--Calmly and quietly, in love, "reprove" a child when he disobeys. Remind
him of what God says. God says in the Word that children must obey their
parents. It is sin not to obey. This is to obey God, too. (You want him to
learn to obey God!) There is no other choice to be made. God knows what is
best for him. Tell him you want him to learn to obey you so he will choose
to obey God later. You are sorry he's chosen to disobey and now must bear
the consequences. It is his choice. (You needn't fuss over and over at him
or get mad. You explained everything ahead of time and he knew the plan.)
[Ex. 20:12, Eph. 6:1, Col. 3:20] "Do all things without complaining or
arguing." All children and parents should memorize this command!
3--Lead your child to confess his sin to God. Pray with him. Lead him to ask
forgiveness of you as well as of God. (This is very hard for adults to do
even, but it melts hearts in repentance.)
4--Calmly carry out the consequence. Remember, the Bible says that no
discipline is pleasant at the time, but it has sweet rewards. Prov. 19:18
says "Discipline your son while there is hope, and do not desire his death."
Prov. 13:24 says, "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him
disciplines him diligently." Prov. 22:15 says, "Foolishness is bound up in
the heart of a child; the rod of discipline will remove it far from him."
Read Prov. 29:15, 17. Prov. 23:13-14, says "Do not withhold discipline from
a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with
the rod and save his soul from death."
5--Love, hug, and forgive your child completely.
Repeat every time the child disobeys! Teach him that obedience is of utmost
importance!
--Jannyruth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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advantage of being a parent of older kids is that I am in a position to
offer an alternative view of Biblical parenting. Some see it as a breath of
fresh air, others see it as blasphemy. I just keep doing what I think is
right for us and let the cards fall where they may.
~April
Mom to Kate-19, Lisa-16, Karl-14, & Ben-10.
*REACH Homeschool Grp, an inclusive group in Oakland County
<http://www.reachhomeschool.com> www.reachhomeschool.com
* Michigan Unschoolers
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/
*Check out Chuck's art! <http://www.artkunst23.com/>
http://www.artkunst23.com
"Know where to find the information and how to use it - That's the secret of
success."
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ann
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 9:15 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] What do you think?
This is horrifying! .... So ignorant too. Shepard's don't use their rod to
beat the sheep, they use it to gently guide the sheep. So his advice is
based on a biblical interpretation that a rod is used for beating! This
poor little guy just wants to play and would learn beautifully by playing.
The only concept he is learning is to hate all the subject matter she is
cramming down his throat.
I can tell I just don't know people like this because I am too shocked.
I am Christian ( a part of what would be a liberal segment of Christianity
admittedly), but I know of no parent that would actually take that advice.
The ones I know would be frantically trying other curriculum's or move to
'unit studies' or other such stuff, but they wouldn't resort to hitting
their kids. In fact I get quite a few questions that start like How do you
unschool, or what do you mean by unchooling? Most some interested, some
even receptive.
Ann
"Mother Earth (Tyra)" <motherspirit@...> wrote:
Mabel
I was reading an online newsletter from Sonlight and found the following
answer and question. Now that I am unschooling, this is wild to me.
Peace
Tyra
Bad Attitudes
POST: How do you handle attitude with schoolwork? My 7-year-old son gives me
such grief every day over schoolwork. Every day it is the same nonsense. Can
we (play, watch tv, go outside . . .)? "Not until you've done your
schoolwork." Eyes roll, shoulders slouch, big sigh and groan!
So when he actually gets his books out and starts something, he tries to do
the bare minimum. If I say two pages of math, he forgets and does one! Then
the "I can't find my _____ book" starts! Now we have a schoolroom, and they
each have a specific section on the shelves in the closet to use for their
books. He is so lazy about picking his stuff up and putting it away where it
belongs. We had a huge discussion this weekend about how he was going to
miss out on things because he was getting extra chores until he learned to
do things right the first time.
Back to schoolwork, though: every time I correct a page and realize he
didn't understand the problem and ask him how to do it correctly, the tears
and drama start. I don't understand it! He does very well when he wants to.
He is good at math and typically gets the concepts easily. His problem comes
when he rushes through and doesn't take the time to read the directions. I
am so frustrated with the same things everyday. It seems to be more of an
attitude problem than actually not understanding though. If he truly didn't
get the concept I could understand but he is frustrated because he thought
he was done and now I am going to ask him to correct the ones he missed.
My husband is complaining that all I do is fuss at them nonstop but nothing
I am saying or doing seems to make a change in their behaviors. I feel like
the meanest mom in the world some days, but I know they should be able to do
the simplest things like pick up after themselves and follow my directions
without such disagreement. I am feeling like I am drowning underneath it all
and not enjoying my family the way God intended me to. Anyone have any
advice?????
--beattiebunchnh
POST: I am convinced that the very most important and basic "lesson" our
children must learn is obedience. Why? Because God requires that we obey
Him. Time after time, our children will have to decide whether they're going
to obey God or not. If they learn and practice "half-obedience" (delayed
obedience or obedience with attitude) to mom and dad, are they not learning
how to "half obey"? Aren't they learning to obey God that way? Do we want
them to reason, "It's ok for me to do this. I'll obey God eventually"?!)
1--Start with extremely clear expectations/rules. Be sure every child knows
exactly what is expected. Don't make a list a mile long. You could even
start with simply one rule: Obey mom and dad immediately, completely, every
time, with a good attitude. Decide beforehand what the consequences will be
for NOT obeying. Explain this clearly to them beforehand. "If you CHOOSE to
disobey, this will be the consequence YOU ARE CHOOSING." (Personally, I
believe the "rod" is to be used most of the time. Do you know how often this
is mentioned in Scripture?!?!) Whatever the consequence, make it something
the child really wants to avoid. Note: "Childishness" is not the same as
"disobedience." Don't punish childishness. It is exasperating to a parent,
but it requires training.
2--Calmly and quietly, in love, "reprove" a child when he disobeys. Remind
him of what God says. God says in the Word that children must obey their
parents. It is sin not to obey. This is to obey God, too. (You want him to
learn to obey God!) There is no other choice to be made. God knows what is
best for him. Tell him you want him to learn to obey you so he will choose
to obey God later. You are sorry he's chosen to disobey and now must bear
the consequences. It is his choice. (You needn't fuss over and over at him
or get mad. You explained everything ahead of time and he knew the plan.)
[Ex. 20:12, Eph. 6:1, Col. 3:20] "Do all things without complaining or
arguing." All children and parents should memorize this command!
3--Lead your child to confess his sin to God. Pray with him. Lead him to ask
forgiveness of you as well as of God. (This is very hard for adults to do
even, but it melts hearts in repentance.)
4--Calmly carry out the consequence. Remember, the Bible says that no
discipline is pleasant at the time, but it has sweet rewards. Prov. 19:18
says "Discipline your son while there is hope, and do not desire his death."
Prov. 13:24 says, "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him
disciplines him diligently." Prov. 22:15 says, "Foolishness is bound up in
the heart of a child; the rod of discipline will remove it far from him."
Read Prov. 29:15, 17. Prov. 23:13-14, says "Do not withhold discipline from
a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with
the rod and save his soul from death."
5--Love, hug, and forgive your child completely.
Repeat every time the child disobeys! Teach him that obedience is of utmost
importance!
--Jannyruth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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education Graduate school education online High school education
Chicago school education
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
_____
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
* Visit your group "unschoolingbasics
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics> " on the web.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lesa McMahon-Lowe
I was spanked and never "feared" my father. my mom didn't spank us because
she was too emotional and you never spank a child out of anger (like Yolanda
mentioned).
I don't spank my daughter because that is what my husband wants. And as his
wife I will concede to that way of doing things. I'm more like my mother
anyway and would never want to expose my child to spanking out of anger.
I like the way Yolanda laid things out. This is the way I was raised and it
worked in our household. My upbringing truly saved me during my teen years
after my parents divorced.
Lesa
-------Original Message-------
From: camden
Date: 12/09/05 13:55:44
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] What do you think?
I had my first child when I was 16 & tried to raise him the way my parents
did because I thought that was the right and only way. I did spank, as did
my parents.
Do I regret this? Oh Yes !! I don't think any good comes of using corporal
punishment. I feel it only produces fear. I want my kids to respect & love
me, not fear me. When my kids make a mistake big or small, I want to know
that they feel they can come to me and not fear what will happen if they do.
My parents never changed in their belief of spanking, I started out
believing this and changed, my hope is my kids will choose not to go down
the "spanking" path to begin with.
So thats what I think.
Carol
she was too emotional and you never spank a child out of anger (like Yolanda
mentioned).
I don't spank my daughter because that is what my husband wants. And as his
wife I will concede to that way of doing things. I'm more like my mother
anyway and would never want to expose my child to spanking out of anger.
I like the way Yolanda laid things out. This is the way I was raised and it
worked in our household. My upbringing truly saved me during my teen years
after my parents divorced.
Lesa
-------Original Message-------
From: camden
Date: 12/09/05 13:55:44
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] What do you think?
I had my first child when I was 16 & tried to raise him the way my parents
did because I thought that was the right and only way. I did spank, as did
my parents.
Do I regret this? Oh Yes !! I don't think any good comes of using corporal
punishment. I feel it only produces fear. I want my kids to respect & love
me, not fear me. When my kids make a mistake big or small, I want to know
that they feel they can come to me and not fear what will happen if they do.
My parents never changed in their belief of spanking, I started out
believing this and changed, my hope is my kids will choose not to go down
the "spanking" path to begin with.
So thats what I think.
Carol
----- Original Message -----
From: "Yolonda Hicks" <books_music_birds@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] What do you think?
> As a Christian who reads and tries to live by the Bible as a whole, I have
> to both agree and disagree with both sides of this argument. The Bible,
> even in the New Testament (which the original post referred to but did not
> quote), does require obedience from children but also places requirements
> on the parents. (The verses I'm quoting below are from the
> NIrV--translation written to about a "3rd-grade" level--as my daughter's
> Bible was the one close at hand.)
>
> Ephesians 6:1-2 states, "Children, obey your parents as believers in the
> Lord. Obey them because it's the right thing to do. Scripture says,
> 'Honor your father and mother.' That is the first commandment that has a
> promise." However, verse 4 says, "Fathers [and mothers], don't make your
> children angry. Instead, train them and teach them the ways of the Lords
> as you raise them."
>
> Colossians 3:20 states, "Children, obey your parents in everything. That
> pleases the Lord." It is immediately followed, though, by verse 21
> stating, "Fathers [and mothers], don't make your children bitter. If you
> do, they will lose hope."
>
> For those of us who believe the Bible, we are told that children need to
> obey, but we are also told that we have the responsibility to make the
> right rules/commands. God's rules for us are to protect us and for our
> good, so our rules should be for our children (not because it makes our
> lives easier or we just like things that way). My children are not
> "perfect models of obedience", even to good rules, but the fact that they
> have been trained in the importance of obedience has literally saved my
> son's life twice.
>
> I also do not believe that corporal punishment, when used wisely and
> carefully, is abuse. The shepherd's rod was used to gently guide the
> sheep, but, in certain circumstances when a sheep would continue to do
> something which endangered it, it was also used to strike the sheep. I was
> taught that spanking is the same, not to be used for every little offense
> (that's where guidance, related consequences, or sometimes even rewards
> for the opposite behavior come into play) but reserved for serious
> problems, as a child who continually goes out into the street (or plays
> with fire, etc.) regardless of all correction methods tried. At that
> point, an appropriately done spanking (on the fatty tissue of the buttocks
> and by an emotionally-controlled parent, no anger) gives a reminder to the
> child that stings but does not injure, which is highly preferable to a
> dead child. Usually once does the trick; I've never met or heard about a
> "normal" child who required more than twice to correct a
> situation like this--and you don't use corporal punishment at all with a
> mentally handicapped child, or one who has been previously abused.
>
> However, I think forcing that poor child to do two pages of math is
> probably pushing the limit. Even when we were completely school-at-home,
> my son would have had an emotional breakdown if I'd expected that of him
> (and he LIKES math). There's another verse in the Bible that talks about
> training up a child in the way he/she should go, literally meaning
> according to his/her bent (the way God made the child--personality,
> talents, etc.). If this mother was truly paying attention to how her son
> is wired, she would be looking for other ways to help him learn.
>
> Just my two cents worth,
> Yolonda Hicks
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Shopping
> Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
SPONSORED LINKS Secondary school education Graduate school education Home
school education
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education
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***I also do not believe that corporal punishment, when used wisely and
carefully, is abuse. ***
If you hit anyone else in order to make them do what you want them to do,
or in order to "punish" them (and punishment is just revenge with a
politically correct name) you can be charged with a crime and if
convicted serve time in jail for assault.
Does it follow logically that if you hit someone who depends on you,
trusts you, loves you, who is physically smaller than you, less
experienced than you, who doesn't have legal recourse against you, that
it could be anything but abuse?
My mom is Jewish. Her family believed if a child behaved badly it was
because of bad parenting and hitting someone because they have flawed
parents is mean and ignorant.
There was a time when men could hit their women and it was socially
acceptable. How many women would say it was not abuse?
***...as a child who continually goes out into the street (or plays with
fire, etc.) regardless of all correction methods tried.***
If a child repeatedly runs into the street the problem is not with the
child but with the mom. If a child is curious about the street, mom
should go into the street with the child, when it's safe, until the child
has had his curiosity satisfied. If a child is playing with fire, mom
should help him light matches in a safe place until his curiosity is
satisfied. With a lot of close attention and talking about safe and
unsafe times and places to go into the street or to light fires, a child
will learn what he needs to in order to be safe. It takes more time and
attention on the parents part then a spanking does but it's better all
around for the child, parent and relationship.
No one deserves to be hit for being curious about the world. They
deserve opportunity and the help of someone who will show them how to be
safe.
Children who are curious about the world do not need to be corrected.
They are not mistakes. Their behavior is not a mistake. It is perfectly
normal and human to want to understand the world around us.
***...an appropriately done spanking (on the fatty tissue of the buttocks
and by an emotionally-controlled parent, no anger) gives a reminder to
the child that stings but does not injure, which is highly preferable to
a dead child.***
A child hit by a parent or a dead child are not the only two choices.
There are much better choices if a parent is willing and able to think it
through.
***...by an emotionally-controlled parent, no anger...***
Cold blooded assault is not less reprehensible than lashing out in anger
and in some courts thought to be much worse. It shows a deliberate,
premeditated attack.
***If this mother was truly paying attention to how her son is wired, she
would be looking for other ways to help him learn.***
I absolutely agree and think you should consider this carefully and
thoughtfully the next time you're about to hit a child.
Deb Lewis
carefully, is abuse. ***
If you hit anyone else in order to make them do what you want them to do,
or in order to "punish" them (and punishment is just revenge with a
politically correct name) you can be charged with a crime and if
convicted serve time in jail for assault.
Does it follow logically that if you hit someone who depends on you,
trusts you, loves you, who is physically smaller than you, less
experienced than you, who doesn't have legal recourse against you, that
it could be anything but abuse?
My mom is Jewish. Her family believed if a child behaved badly it was
because of bad parenting and hitting someone because they have flawed
parents is mean and ignorant.
There was a time when men could hit their women and it was socially
acceptable. How many women would say it was not abuse?
***...as a child who continually goes out into the street (or plays with
fire, etc.) regardless of all correction methods tried.***
If a child repeatedly runs into the street the problem is not with the
child but with the mom. If a child is curious about the street, mom
should go into the street with the child, when it's safe, until the child
has had his curiosity satisfied. If a child is playing with fire, mom
should help him light matches in a safe place until his curiosity is
satisfied. With a lot of close attention and talking about safe and
unsafe times and places to go into the street or to light fires, a child
will learn what he needs to in order to be safe. It takes more time and
attention on the parents part then a spanking does but it's better all
around for the child, parent and relationship.
No one deserves to be hit for being curious about the world. They
deserve opportunity and the help of someone who will show them how to be
safe.
Children who are curious about the world do not need to be corrected.
They are not mistakes. Their behavior is not a mistake. It is perfectly
normal and human to want to understand the world around us.
***...an appropriately done spanking (on the fatty tissue of the buttocks
and by an emotionally-controlled parent, no anger) gives a reminder to
the child that stings but does not injure, which is highly preferable to
a dead child.***
A child hit by a parent or a dead child are not the only two choices.
There are much better choices if a parent is willing and able to think it
through.
***...by an emotionally-controlled parent, no anger...***
Cold blooded assault is not less reprehensible than lashing out in anger
and in some courts thought to be much worse. It shows a deliberate,
premeditated attack.
***If this mother was truly paying attention to how her son is wired, she
would be looking for other ways to help him learn.***
I absolutely agree and think you should consider this carefully and
thoughtfully the next time you're about to hit a child.
Deb Lewis
camden
>>"I was spanked and never "feared" my father. my mom didn't spank usI still know it is wrong. Calm spanking??? I would hate to see a person
>>because
>> she was too emotional and you never spank a child out of anger (like
>> Yolanda
>> mentioned)."
who would have NO emotion while hitting a child, it would tear my heart out
if I hit my child no matter what fatty part of the body it was on.
If you can't look at it from a child's point of view, try from an adult
perspective......... What if you were at work and you filed the paper work
wrong or pushed the wrong buttons on the copier machine and they office
course of action was 2 swats for the first offense and 3 for the second.
Isn't that considered assault? Would you put up with that as an adult?
Would you allow your husband to hit you if you did the dishes "wrong" ? Not
me.
Children feel so defenseless when an older, bigger person uses force as a
way to get what they want. I have apologized to my two oldest (22 & 24)
sons for the way I parented when they were young. If I could go back and
take back the spankings (which were few & far between, but none the less
still happened) I would. I now know that my older kids were "well behaved"
kids because they didn't want to get a spanking. Now I have 6 kids at home
who are great, respectful to others, fun, interesting people.
And they got that way without one spanking !!!!!
Carol
Mother Earth (Tyra)
Thank you for being an advocate for children. A voice for people who often times are voiceless.
Peace
Tyra
Peace
Tyra
----- Original Message -----
From: camden
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] What do you think?
Children feel so defenseless when an older, bigger person uses force as a
way to get what they want. I have apologized to my two oldest (22 & 24)
sons for the way I parented when they were young. If I could go back and
take back the spankings (which were few & far between, but none the less
still happened) I would. I now know that my older kids were "well behaved"
kids because they didn't want to get a spanking. Now I have 6 kids at home
who are great, respectful to others, fun, interesting people.
And they got that way without one spanking !!!!!
Carol
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mother Earth (Tyra)
Well put, Deb! Another child advocate! I love it! I am so with you on helping children avert dangerous activities by allowing them to explore it in a safe environment. That is how I have gotten my children to not do dangerous things.!
Peace!
Peace!
----- Original Message -----
From: Deb Lewis
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] What do you think?
.
Does it follow logically that if you hit someone who depends on you,
trusts you, loves you, who is physically smaller than you, less
experienced than you, who doesn't have legal recourse against you, that
it could be anything but abuse?
My mom is Jewish. Her family believed if a child behaved badly it was
because of bad parenting and hitting someone because they have flawed
parents is mean and ignorant.
There was a time when men could hit their women and it was socially
acceptable. How many women would say it was not abuse?
***...as a child who continually goes out into the street (or plays with
fire, etc.) regardless of all correction methods tried.***
If a child repeatedly runs into the street the problem is not with the
child but with the mom. If a child is curious about the street, mom
should go into the street with the child, when it's safe, until the child
has had his curiosity satisfied. If a child is playing with fire, mom
should help him light matches in a safe place until his curiosity is
satisfied. With a lot of close attention and talking about safe and
unsafe times and places to go into the street or to light fires, a child
will learn what he needs to in order to be safe. It takes more time and
attention on the parents part then a spanking does but it's better all
around for the child, parent and relationship.
No one deserves to be hit for being curious about the world. They
deserve opportunity and the help of someone who will show them how to be
safe.
Children who are curious about the world do not need to be corrected.
They are not mistakes. Their behavior is not a mistake. It is perfectly
normal and human to want to understand the world around us.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
"I also do not believe that corporal punishment, when used wisely and
carefully, is abuse. "
You won't find much agreement on that viewpoint at this list.
If you're interested in defending spanking, you're going to get a
lot of strong and persuasive disagreement. If you're interested in
halting the hitting, then you'll get a lot of encouragement and
support and ideas here.
It flies in the face of unschooling philosophies to hit a child.
Absolutely, without a doubt in direct opposition to every
unschooling philosophy that exists.
This list is here for the purpose of moving people closer to
unschooling philosophies. Maybe through smaller steps, maybe in
different ways, but that IS the purpose of this list. Our advice
will always lean towards radical unschooling.
I hope you'll stick around and pick the brains of several of us that
have moved from spanking to never, ever punishing our children.
And those that never did it to begin with. There's a goldmine of
information and ways to move beyond an adversarial relationship with
your children.
I also ask that quoting the Bible be kept to a minimum....I
recognize there are Christians here that love their faith, but there
are also Atheists, Pagans, Jews, some of us with no label that fits
etc....and we don't want to sift through posts with a bunch of Bible
verses being quoted. I hope you can understand.
This is a very diverse list and in order to keep it a safe place for
people to receive unschooling advice, we need to keep religious
stuff to a minimum.
Sharing your views is fine of course, quoting your holy book isn't
so great because we could all do that from a variety of sources (the
Talmud, qu'ran etc...) and never come to any kind of agreement.
So let's focus on how to treat children respectfully, how to stop
spanking, how to trust learning how to live peacefully and joyfully
as families in freedom.:)
Respectfully,
Ren
carefully, is abuse. "
You won't find much agreement on that viewpoint at this list.
If you're interested in defending spanking, you're going to get a
lot of strong and persuasive disagreement. If you're interested in
halting the hitting, then you'll get a lot of encouragement and
support and ideas here.
It flies in the face of unschooling philosophies to hit a child.
Absolutely, without a doubt in direct opposition to every
unschooling philosophy that exists.
This list is here for the purpose of moving people closer to
unschooling philosophies. Maybe through smaller steps, maybe in
different ways, but that IS the purpose of this list. Our advice
will always lean towards radical unschooling.
I hope you'll stick around and pick the brains of several of us that
have moved from spanking to never, ever punishing our children.
And those that never did it to begin with. There's a goldmine of
information and ways to move beyond an adversarial relationship with
your children.
I also ask that quoting the Bible be kept to a minimum....I
recognize there are Christians here that love their faith, but there
are also Atheists, Pagans, Jews, some of us with no label that fits
etc....and we don't want to sift through posts with a bunch of Bible
verses being quoted. I hope you can understand.
This is a very diverse list and in order to keep it a safe place for
people to receive unschooling advice, we need to keep religious
stuff to a minimum.
Sharing your views is fine of course, quoting your holy book isn't
so great because we could all do that from a variety of sources (the
Talmud, qu'ran etc...) and never come to any kind of agreement.
So let's focus on how to treat children respectfully, how to stop
spanking, how to trust learning how to live peacefully and joyfully
as families in freedom.:)
Respectfully,
Ren
Lesa McMahon-Lowe
Please don't discuss my upbringing like I'm not going to read it. How you
got out of that that my father had no emotion or that it didn't tear his
heart out, I don't know. I think I can go back to my post and read exactly
what I wrote... and I can assure you that I never said anything of the sort.
My father is the best father anyone could ever have. He is kind, supportive
and always there for me no matter what.
Thanks,
Lesa
-------Original Message-------
From: camden
Date: 12/09/05 21:11:28
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] What do you think?
who would have NO emotion while hitting a child, it would tear my heart out
if I hit my child no matter what fatty part of the body it was on.
If you can't look at it from a child's point of view, try from an adult
perspective......... What if you were at work and you filed the paper work
wrong or pushed the wrong buttons on the copier machine and they office
course of action was 2 swats for the first offense and 3 for the second.
Isn't that considered assault? Would you put up with that as an adult?
Would you allow your husband to hit you if you did the dishes "wrong" ? Not
me.
Children feel so defenseless when an older, bigger person uses force as a
way to get what they want. I have apologized to my two oldest (22 & 24)
sons for the way I parented when they were young. If I could go back and
take back the spankings (which were few & far between, but none the less
still happened) I would. I now know that my older kids were "well behaved"
kids because they didn't want to get a spanking. Now I have 6 kids at home
who are great, respectful to others, fun, interesting people.
And they got that way without one spanking !!!!!
Carol
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
got out of that that my father had no emotion or that it didn't tear his
heart out, I don't know. I think I can go back to my post and read exactly
what I wrote... and I can assure you that I never said anything of the sort.
My father is the best father anyone could ever have. He is kind, supportive
and always there for me no matter what.
Thanks,
Lesa
-------Original Message-------
From: camden
Date: 12/09/05 21:11:28
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] What do you think?
>>"I was spanked and never "feared" my father. my mom didn't spank usI still know it is wrong. Calm spanking??? I would hate to see a person
>>because
>> she was too emotional and you never spank a child out of anger (like
>> Yolanda
>> mentioned)."
who would have NO emotion while hitting a child, it would tear my heart out
if I hit my child no matter what fatty part of the body it was on.
If you can't look at it from a child's point of view, try from an adult
perspective......... What if you were at work and you filed the paper work
wrong or pushed the wrong buttons on the copier machine and they office
course of action was 2 swats for the first offense and 3 for the second.
Isn't that considered assault? Would you put up with that as an adult?
Would you allow your husband to hit you if you did the dishes "wrong" ? Not
me.
Children feel so defenseless when an older, bigger person uses force as a
way to get what they want. I have apologized to my two oldest (22 & 24)
sons for the way I parented when they were young. If I could go back and
take back the spankings (which were few & far between, but none the less
still happened) I would. I now know that my older kids were "well behaved"
kids because they didn't want to get a spanking. Now I have 6 kids at home
who are great, respectful to others, fun, interesting people.
And they got that way without one spanking !!!!!
Carol
SPONSORED LINKS Secondary school education Graduate school education Home
school education
Graduate school education online High school education Chicago school
education
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
Visit your group "unschoolingbasics" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
"Please don't discuss my upbringing like I'm not going to read it."
Nobody was discussing you or your childhood, they were discussing
what you said, which was about a parent HITTING a child with no
anger.
The person was simply responding to that information. It's not about
your father, or your childhood, it's about the idea of a parent
hitting a child without anger...which is NOT a good thing around
here.
If you're feeling a strong sense of loyalty to your parents still,
without having examined the things they could have done better, then
I can see why spanking seems ok to you.
Most of us have had years and years to come to terms with the good
AND bad our parents did (yes, because they didn't have better tools
and often struggled to do better than their own parents) and try to
do better.
I love my parents very, very much. I think they did a great job,
especially considering how they were raised..but I had to examine
the things they did wrong in order to not repeat that behavior.
This isn't about anyone or their parents though. This is about the
idea...please keep the disussion about ideas.
Ren
Nobody was discussing you or your childhood, they were discussing
what you said, which was about a parent HITTING a child with no
anger.
The person was simply responding to that information. It's not about
your father, or your childhood, it's about the idea of a parent
hitting a child without anger...which is NOT a good thing around
here.
If you're feeling a strong sense of loyalty to your parents still,
without having examined the things they could have done better, then
I can see why spanking seems ok to you.
Most of us have had years and years to come to terms with the good
AND bad our parents did (yes, because they didn't have better tools
and often struggled to do better than their own parents) and try to
do better.
I love my parents very, very much. I think they did a great job,
especially considering how they were raised..but I had to examine
the things they did wrong in order to not repeat that behavior.
This isn't about anyone or their parents though. This is about the
idea...please keep the disussion about ideas.
Ren
camden
Lesa,
I didn't think you wouldn't read it, I truely hoped you would. If I didn't
want you or anyone else to read it (or expect that you wouldn't), I wouldn't
have written about it here. I was not discussing your specific upbringing.
I do not know your father and did not say I did.
As far as if it tore out your father's heart, I don't know. What I said was
"it would tear my heart out
if I hit my child no matter what fatty part of the body it was on".
If you have a great relationship with your father that's great. I love my
dad to pieces. He did spank & I wish he didn't. I wish he had found another
way to deal with issues that arrose. He is deceased now & I'd give anything
to spend another day with him, but I still think he was wrong about the
spanking. It was abuse, plain & simple in my opinion. I think he realized
that later in life as he apologized for all the mistakes he made as a
parent. I used my parents examples of parenting, examined it, took the
good & trashed the bad. As will my children, because I am not perfect. I
hope they will take my parenting skills and examine them. I hope they feel
there is more good than bad. And I certainly hope they will build on the
good. ( and forgive & learn from my mistakes)
This was not a personal attack on your family. If you feel it is you
misunderstood my point. It is an "attack" on hitting kids & the idea that
it is okay.
Carol
I didn't think you wouldn't read it, I truely hoped you would. If I didn't
want you or anyone else to read it (or expect that you wouldn't), I wouldn't
have written about it here. I was not discussing your specific upbringing.
I do not know your father and did not say I did.
As far as if it tore out your father's heart, I don't know. What I said was
"it would tear my heart out
if I hit my child no matter what fatty part of the body it was on".
If you have a great relationship with your father that's great. I love my
dad to pieces. He did spank & I wish he didn't. I wish he had found another
way to deal with issues that arrose. He is deceased now & I'd give anything
to spend another day with him, but I still think he was wrong about the
spanking. It was abuse, plain & simple in my opinion. I think he realized
that later in life as he apologized for all the mistakes he made as a
parent. I used my parents examples of parenting, examined it, took the
good & trashed the bad. As will my children, because I am not perfect. I
hope they will take my parenting skills and examine them. I hope they feel
there is more good than bad. And I certainly hope they will build on the
good. ( and forgive & learn from my mistakes)
This was not a personal attack on your family. If you feel it is you
misunderstood my point. It is an "attack" on hitting kids & the idea that
it is okay.
Carol
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lesa McMahon-Lowe" <lesajm@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] What do you think?
> Please don't discuss my upbringing like I'm not going to read it. How you
> got out of that that my father had no emotion or that it didn't tear his
> heart out, I don't know. I think I can go back to my post and read
> exactly
> what I wrote... and I can assure you that I never said anything of the
> sort.
>
> My father is the best father anyone could ever have. He is kind,
> supportive
> and always there for me no matter what.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Lesa
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: camden
> Date: 12/09/05 21:11:28
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] What do you think?
>
>
>
>>>"I was spanked and never "feared" my father. my mom didn't spank us
>>>because
>>> she was too emotional and you never spank a child out of anger (like
>>> Yolanda
>>> mentioned)."
>
> I still know it is wrong. Calm spanking??? I would hate to see a person
> who would have NO emotion while hitting a child, it would tear my heart
> out
> if I hit my child no matter what fatty part of the body it was on.
>
> If you can't look at it from a child's point of view, try from an adult
> perspective......... What if you were at work and you filed the paper work
> wrong or pushed the wrong buttons on the copier machine and they office
> course of action was 2 swats for the first offense and 3 for the second.
> Isn't that considered assault? Would you put up with that as an adult?
> Would you allow your husband to hit you if you did the dishes "wrong" ?
> Not
>
> me.
>
> Children feel so defenseless when an older, bigger person uses force as a
> way to get what they want. I have apologized to my two oldest (22 & 24)
> sons for the way I parented when they were young. If I could go back and
> take back the spankings (which were few & far between, but none the less
> still happened) I would. I now know that my older kids were "well
> behaved"
> kids because they didn't want to get a spanking. Now I have 6 kids at
> home
>
> who are great, respectful to others, fun, interesting people.
>
> And they got that way without one spanking !!!!!
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS Secondary school education Graduate school education Home
> school education
> Graduate school education online High school education Chicago school
> education
>
>
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> Visit your group "unschoolingbasics" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
Yolonda Hicks
<<"I also do not believe that corporal punishment, when used wisely and
carefully, is abuse. "
You won't find much agreement on that viewpoint at this list.>>
I think that's been pretty obvious so far, what with people calling me everything from cold-blooded to a child abuser.
<<ways to move beyond an adversarial relationship with
your children.>>
I do not, now, nor ever have had an adversarial relationship with my children. My children know that I love them more than life itself and do not hesitate to bring any issues to me. I was raised pretty much the same way I am raising them, and I was NEVER afraid of my parents. I'm not blind, I see my parents for who they are, faults and all (which is why my children aren't being raised exactly the same), but I love and respect them deeply.
<<I also ask that quoting the Bible be kept to a minimum....I
recognize there are Christians here that love their faith, but there
are also Atheists, Pagans, Jews, some of us with no label that fits
etc....and we don't want to sift through posts with a bunch of Bible
verses being quoted. I hope you can understand.>>
The only reason I quoted the verses in this case was in response to the verses quoted in the original post, which left out the parents' responsibility and the post which questioned whether the writer of the original quotes ever read the New Testament.
<<Sharing your views is fine of course, quoting your holy book isn't
so great because we could all do that from a variety of sources (the
Talmud, qu'ran etc...) and never come to any kind of agreement.>>
Funny, but I thought that tolerance and multiculturalism were about accepting each other's differences, not making sure everyone comes to an agreement. Since I had already stated that I try to live my life by the Bible, it is the basis for most of my views on life. I would think that that would also be true for someone who had another belief system based on a holy book.
<<So let's focus on how to treat children respectfully, how to stop
spanking, how to trust learning how to live peacefully and joyfully
as families in freedom.:)>>
I do treat my children respectfully, and we will continue our search for how to best help them reach their goals in life, but if having to live by the beliefs of others on this list rather than our own is a requisite here, then this is not the place for me to find help in that search.
Withdrawing,
Yolonda Hicks
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Shopping
Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
carefully, is abuse. "
You won't find much agreement on that viewpoint at this list.>>
I think that's been pretty obvious so far, what with people calling me everything from cold-blooded to a child abuser.
<<ways to move beyond an adversarial relationship with
your children.>>
I do not, now, nor ever have had an adversarial relationship with my children. My children know that I love them more than life itself and do not hesitate to bring any issues to me. I was raised pretty much the same way I am raising them, and I was NEVER afraid of my parents. I'm not blind, I see my parents for who they are, faults and all (which is why my children aren't being raised exactly the same), but I love and respect them deeply.
<<I also ask that quoting the Bible be kept to a minimum....I
recognize there are Christians here that love their faith, but there
are also Atheists, Pagans, Jews, some of us with no label that fits
etc....and we don't want to sift through posts with a bunch of Bible
verses being quoted. I hope you can understand.>>
The only reason I quoted the verses in this case was in response to the verses quoted in the original post, which left out the parents' responsibility and the post which questioned whether the writer of the original quotes ever read the New Testament.
<<Sharing your views is fine of course, quoting your holy book isn't
so great because we could all do that from a variety of sources (the
Talmud, qu'ran etc...) and never come to any kind of agreement.>>
Funny, but I thought that tolerance and multiculturalism were about accepting each other's differences, not making sure everyone comes to an agreement. Since I had already stated that I try to live my life by the Bible, it is the basis for most of my views on life. I would think that that would also be true for someone who had another belief system based on a holy book.
<<So let's focus on how to treat children respectfully, how to stop
spanking, how to trust learning how to live peacefully and joyfully
as families in freedom.:)>>
I do treat my children respectfully, and we will continue our search for how to best help them reach their goals in life, but if having to live by the beliefs of others on this list rather than our own is a requisite here, then this is not the place for me to find help in that search.
Withdrawing,
Yolonda Hicks
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Shopping
Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Su Penn
I don't understand how a relationship in which one person can hit
another one to gain compliance can be NOT adversarial. I'm not trying
to trash you, Yolonda, but trying to understand. Can you explain to
me how that doesn't feel adversarial to you or to your kids?
I know that whenever I lose patience and get snappy or (god forbid)
start yelling, or when I get really focused on getting my kid to do
the thing I want him to do NOW, it definitely feels adversarial to
me. I feel like we have lost our alliance, that we are no longer
wanting the same things--and it always feels like a failure to me
when we can't find a common preference.
I guess I would even make this broader than the issue of spanking per
se--at our house, whenever I use my greater power to force
compliance, I think my son and I are adversaries. And when we are
adversaries, I always win. But it feels crappy to both of us. I
wouldn't say we have an adversarial relationship in general, but we
have our adversarial moments--and it always feels like a failure, and
like something I don't want to do again. I can't imagine using my
greater physical power, or the power I have as the one with the money
and the car keys, to force my son to do something he didn't want to
do--and then thinking, "wow, that was great. That was exactly what I
wanted to happen. I'm going to keep doing that from now on!"
And I would think, too, that whenever there is the possibility of
punishment, there are going to be things kids aren't going to tell
their parents. If I got spanked before for crossing the street by
myself, I'm not going to tell my mom I went across the street to see
the neighbor's new puppy. This is not about Yolonda and her kids; I
am thinking hypothetically and about my own childhood. Whenever I
went to parties as a teenager, my mother would tell me, "Now, if your
date is drinking and you don't want to ride home with him, just give
us a call. Anytime you need us to pick you up from a party, call!
We'd rather come out and get you in the middle of the night than have
you driving with someone who's been drinking."
That sounds good. And I'm sure my mother would have told anybody,
"Susan knows that she can call us anytime if she needs to." But I
couldn't, really. I knew from my other experiences with my parents
that they would not have calmly come to pick me up in a non-
judgmental way; I'd have been harangued and shamed the whole way
home, and probably punished for being at a party where alcohol was
served, even if I hadn't been drinking. When I was 16, I was a
passenger in a car when a friend started driving like an idiot on a
gravel road, and ended up rolling the car. Even though I had been
saying, "Cheryl, stop that!" my parents blamed me for the accident
and grounded me. I was a passenger, but somehow I caused the
accident! I knew from things like that that no matter what they said
about "call us in the middle of the night," I couldn't really--not
without paying a price.
Clarifying: I'm not saying Yolonda does anything like what my parents
did. But I'm pretty sure my mother's perception of our relationship,
and mine, were quite a bit different.
As a thought-experiment and based on my own experiences, I can't see
a relationship in which punishment--physical or not--plays a part as
anything but adversarial. And I can't imagine kids who have been
punished for certain things feeling that they can really tell their
parents "anything." The possibility of punishment lays the groundwork
for secrecy and mistrust.
Su
another one to gain compliance can be NOT adversarial. I'm not trying
to trash you, Yolonda, but trying to understand. Can you explain to
me how that doesn't feel adversarial to you or to your kids?
I know that whenever I lose patience and get snappy or (god forbid)
start yelling, or when I get really focused on getting my kid to do
the thing I want him to do NOW, it definitely feels adversarial to
me. I feel like we have lost our alliance, that we are no longer
wanting the same things--and it always feels like a failure to me
when we can't find a common preference.
I guess I would even make this broader than the issue of spanking per
se--at our house, whenever I use my greater power to force
compliance, I think my son and I are adversaries. And when we are
adversaries, I always win. But it feels crappy to both of us. I
wouldn't say we have an adversarial relationship in general, but we
have our adversarial moments--and it always feels like a failure, and
like something I don't want to do again. I can't imagine using my
greater physical power, or the power I have as the one with the money
and the car keys, to force my son to do something he didn't want to
do--and then thinking, "wow, that was great. That was exactly what I
wanted to happen. I'm going to keep doing that from now on!"
And I would think, too, that whenever there is the possibility of
punishment, there are going to be things kids aren't going to tell
their parents. If I got spanked before for crossing the street by
myself, I'm not going to tell my mom I went across the street to see
the neighbor's new puppy. This is not about Yolonda and her kids; I
am thinking hypothetically and about my own childhood. Whenever I
went to parties as a teenager, my mother would tell me, "Now, if your
date is drinking and you don't want to ride home with him, just give
us a call. Anytime you need us to pick you up from a party, call!
We'd rather come out and get you in the middle of the night than have
you driving with someone who's been drinking."
That sounds good. And I'm sure my mother would have told anybody,
"Susan knows that she can call us anytime if she needs to." But I
couldn't, really. I knew from my other experiences with my parents
that they would not have calmly come to pick me up in a non-
judgmental way; I'd have been harangued and shamed the whole way
home, and probably punished for being at a party where alcohol was
served, even if I hadn't been drinking. When I was 16, I was a
passenger in a car when a friend started driving like an idiot on a
gravel road, and ended up rolling the car. Even though I had been
saying, "Cheryl, stop that!" my parents blamed me for the accident
and grounded me. I was a passenger, but somehow I caused the
accident! I knew from things like that that no matter what they said
about "call us in the middle of the night," I couldn't really--not
without paying a price.
Clarifying: I'm not saying Yolonda does anything like what my parents
did. But I'm pretty sure my mother's perception of our relationship,
and mine, were quite a bit different.
As a thought-experiment and based on my own experiences, I can't see
a relationship in which punishment--physical or not--plays a part as
anything but adversarial. And I can't imagine kids who have been
punished for certain things feeling that they can really tell their
parents "anything." The possibility of punishment lays the groundwork
for secrecy and mistrust.
Su
On Dec 10, 2005, at 11:04 PM, Yolonda Hicks wrote:
> I do not, now, nor ever have had an adversarial relationship with
> my children. My children know that I love them more than life
> itself and do not hesitate to bring any issues to me.
Su Penn
I feel sort of silly; I didn't realize until I read it a second time
that Yolonda was leaving. I wouldn't have written that whole thing if
I'd realized. Oops.
Su
that Yolonda was leaving. I wouldn't have written that whole thing if
I'd realized. Oops.
Su
On Dec 10, 2005, at 11:04 PM, Yolonda Hicks wrote:
> Withdrawing,
Robyn Coburn
<<<<< I feel sort of silly; I didn't realize until I read it a second time
that Yolonda was leaving. I wouldn't have written that whole thing if
I'd realized. Oops. >>>>
I, for one, am SO GLAD that you did. That post contains a wealth of thought
provoking ideas and deeply interesting points. (Reply under separate cover.)
Also sometimes people wait to see what the reaction is to their proclaiming
leaving before actually going, or just go no-mail temporarily.
Robyn L. Coburn
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that Yolonda was leaving. I wouldn't have written that whole thing if
I'd realized. Oops. >>>>
I, for one, am SO GLAD that you did. That post contains a wealth of thought
provoking ideas and deeply interesting points. (Reply under separate cover.)
Also sometimes people wait to see what the reaction is to their proclaiming
leaving before actually going, or just go no-mail temporarily.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/197 - Release Date: 12/9/2005
Robyn Coburn
<<<<< I was raised pretty much the same way I am raising them, and I was
NEVER afraid of my parents. I'm not blind, I see my parents for who they
are, faults and all (which is why my children aren't being raised exactly
the same), but I love and respect them deeply. >>>>
Yet this suggests that you are willing, even desirous, of embracing your
parents' faults or parenting defects - repeating their mistakes along with
their positive ideas as if you have no other choice but to take all or
nothing.
I don't understand why anyone would look at their parents' errors and say
"I'm going to do *exactly* the same".
Also it is "one size fits all" parenting. Our children are not ourselves.
Our children are not clones of us or each other (even twins!). They could
have different needs than we may have had growing up and from each other.
<<<< never come to any kind of agreement.>>
Funny, but I thought that tolerance and multiculturalism were about
accepting each other's differences, not making sure everyone comes to an
agreement. >>>>>
This is not a tolerance and multiculturalism discussion list. This is an
Unschooling discussion list. Anyone who *chooses to* can learn how to
Unschool regardless of religious beliefs, race, ancestry or cultural
background.
While what an Unschooling life looks like will be different and brilliantly
unique in every family, there are some Principles which are common
underpinnings, if we are moving towards the fullest measure of joy in our
children's lives. One of those includes moving away from an adversarial
relationship through employing the Principles of Respect, Kindness,
Compassion, Understanding and Empowerment of children's autonomy.
I believe that there is no place for spanking a child in a life of Radical
Unschooling. If we are choosing to spank our child, for whatever reason, we
are failing as an Unschooling parent in that moment. However that doesn't
mean that we can't do better in the next moment, or the next time the same
issue comes up if we choose to!
While ever spanking is in the toolbox as an option, while ever it is a
thinkable, possible alternative, there is a barrier to Unschooling with Joy.
Keeping spanking in mind means there is always that place where some line
can be crossed into "this is the situation where spanking is allowable".
Spanking is *never* necessary. It is a bad choice being made by the parent.
<<<<< I do treat my children respectfully,>>>>>
Except for those moments, no matter how few and far between, when you are
choosing to spank them. Except for those moments when you scroll through
your mental list of "spankable offenses", no matter how fleeting that
thought is.
<<<< and we will continue our search for how to best help them reach their
goals in life, but if having to live by the beliefs of others on this list
rather than our own is a requisite here, then this is not the place for me
to find help in that search. >>>>>
I don't care about anyone's beliefs here, except when they are promoting
practices and ideas that are barriers to Unschooling. The idea is not for
anyone to impose their beliefs on the list members (impossible anyway), but
for everyone to rigorously and consciously examine how their own beliefs
might be hindering the journey to Unschooling.
Making Obedience the overriding life principle and directing your children's
lives with that as the tentpole is a barrier to Unschooling with Joy.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/197 - Release Date: 12/9/2005
NEVER afraid of my parents. I'm not blind, I see my parents for who they
are, faults and all (which is why my children aren't being raised exactly
the same), but I love and respect them deeply. >>>>
Yet this suggests that you are willing, even desirous, of embracing your
parents' faults or parenting defects - repeating their mistakes along with
their positive ideas as if you have no other choice but to take all or
nothing.
I don't understand why anyone would look at their parents' errors and say
"I'm going to do *exactly* the same".
Also it is "one size fits all" parenting. Our children are not ourselves.
Our children are not clones of us or each other (even twins!). They could
have different needs than we may have had growing up and from each other.
<<<< never come to any kind of agreement.>>
Funny, but I thought that tolerance and multiculturalism were about
accepting each other's differences, not making sure everyone comes to an
agreement. >>>>>
This is not a tolerance and multiculturalism discussion list. This is an
Unschooling discussion list. Anyone who *chooses to* can learn how to
Unschool regardless of religious beliefs, race, ancestry or cultural
background.
While what an Unschooling life looks like will be different and brilliantly
unique in every family, there are some Principles which are common
underpinnings, if we are moving towards the fullest measure of joy in our
children's lives. One of those includes moving away from an adversarial
relationship through employing the Principles of Respect, Kindness,
Compassion, Understanding and Empowerment of children's autonomy.
I believe that there is no place for spanking a child in a life of Radical
Unschooling. If we are choosing to spank our child, for whatever reason, we
are failing as an Unschooling parent in that moment. However that doesn't
mean that we can't do better in the next moment, or the next time the same
issue comes up if we choose to!
While ever spanking is in the toolbox as an option, while ever it is a
thinkable, possible alternative, there is a barrier to Unschooling with Joy.
Keeping spanking in mind means there is always that place where some line
can be crossed into "this is the situation where spanking is allowable".
Spanking is *never* necessary. It is a bad choice being made by the parent.
<<<<< I do treat my children respectfully,>>>>>
Except for those moments, no matter how few and far between, when you are
choosing to spank them. Except for those moments when you scroll through
your mental list of "spankable offenses", no matter how fleeting that
thought is.
<<<< and we will continue our search for how to best help them reach their
goals in life, but if having to live by the beliefs of others on this list
rather than our own is a requisite here, then this is not the place for me
to find help in that search. >>>>>
I don't care about anyone's beliefs here, except when they are promoting
practices and ideas that are barriers to Unschooling. The idea is not for
anyone to impose their beliefs on the list members (impossible anyway), but
for everyone to rigorously and consciously examine how their own beliefs
might be hindering the journey to Unschooling.
Making Obedience the overriding life principle and directing your children's
lives with that as the tentpole is a barrier to Unschooling with Joy.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/197 - Release Date: 12/9/2005
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Lesa McMahon-Lowe <lesajm@...>
I was spanked and never "feared" my father. my mom didn't spank us because
she was too emotional and you never spank a child out of anger (like Yolanda
mentioned).
-=-=-=-
This is the part that really gets to me. I can understand hitting out of anger, frustration, ---hell, all
sorts of reasons, especially of that's how you were raised (I was). But the cold-blooded part is what
freaks me out. In anger or infrustration, people are capable of serious violence. After the fact though---
shouldn't you be able to find a BETTER way of dealing with the problem?????
-===-=-
I don't spank my daughter because that is what my husband wants. And as his
wife I will concede to that way of doing things. I'm more like my mother
anyway and would never want to expose my child to spanking out of anger.
-=-=-=-
Why can't that read: I "would never want to expose my child to spanking" ---and just stop there?????
-=-=-=-
I like the way Yolanda laid things out. This is the way I was raised and it
worked in our household. My upbringing truly saved me during my teen years
after my parents divorced.
-=-=-=-=-
Beating a child will NOT save him in any way, shape, or manner.
It "works" for YOU. It does nothing FOR your child.
So you're telling us that you were spanked as a teen after your parents divorced and that saved you?????
~KellyKelly LovejoyConference CoordinatorLive and Learn Unschooling Conferencehttp://liveandlearnconference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Lesa McMahon-Lowe <lesajm@...>
I was spanked and never "feared" my father. my mom didn't spank us because
she was too emotional and you never spank a child out of anger (like Yolanda
mentioned).
-=-=-=-
This is the part that really gets to me. I can understand hitting out of anger, frustration, ---hell, all
sorts of reasons, especially of that's how you were raised (I was). But the cold-blooded part is what
freaks me out. In anger or infrustration, people are capable of serious violence. After the fact though---
shouldn't you be able to find a BETTER way of dealing with the problem?????
-===-=-
I don't spank my daughter because that is what my husband wants. And as his
wife I will concede to that way of doing things. I'm more like my mother
anyway and would never want to expose my child to spanking out of anger.
-=-=-=-
Why can't that read: I "would never want to expose my child to spanking" ---and just stop there?????
-=-=-=-
I like the way Yolanda laid things out. This is the way I was raised and it
worked in our household. My upbringing truly saved me during my teen years
after my parents divorced.
-=-=-=-=-
Beating a child will NOT save him in any way, shape, or manner.
It "works" for YOU. It does nothing FOR your child.
So you're telling us that you were spanked as a teen after your parents divorced and that saved you?????
~KellyKelly LovejoyConference CoordinatorLive and Learn Unschooling Conferencehttp://liveandlearnconference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]