Ren

"Yeah, I admit I do kindof see the TV and also advertising and media as
an evil...I hate having to tell Will what all the things
they are advertising are."

Well, do you see books as evil, just because there are books worshipping Satan or condoning murder? Just because a form of communication has positive and negative qualities, do we ban or limit that in our children's lives? Or should we trust them to know what is "crap" and what fascinatest them?
I trust that if something is really interesting to my child, they are getting a lot out of it. Shows that I thought were "crap" many years ago, have been a wonderful opportunity for learning (Ed, Ed and Eddy, The Simpsons, South Park).
If you have a sensitive child, or have sensitivities yourself, that all comes into play. You wouldn't just turn on some violent show that you know would bother them! That's not what we're advocating. Kids don't WANT to watch stuff they aren't ready for.
I think tv has gotten a bad rap, and I see no reason for unschoolers to fear and demonize ANY form of communication. Just like books, or radio or computers, you use the parts that enhance your life and leave the rest. I trust my children to do the same.

Ren


Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/

Ren

"Yeah, I admit I do kindof see the TV and also advertising and media as
an evil...I hate having to tell Will what all the things
they are advertising are."

Well, do you see books as evil, just because there are books worshipping Satan or condoning murder? Just because a form of communication has positive and negative qualities, do we ban or limit that in our children's lives? Or should we trust them to know what is "crap" and what fascinates them?
I trust that if something is really interesting to my child, they are getting a lot out of it. Shows that I thought were "crap" many years ago, have been a wonderful opportunity for learning (Ed, Ed and Eddy, The Simpsons, South Park).
If you have a sensitive child, or have sensitivities yourself, that all comes into play. You wouldn't just turn on some violent show that you know would bother them! That's not what we're advocating. Kids don't WANT to watch stuff they aren't ready for.
I think tv has gotten a bad rap, and I see no reason for unschoolers to fear and demonize ANY form of communication. Just like books, or radio or computers, you use the parts that enhance your life and leave the rest. I trust my children to do the same.

Ren


Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/

Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese

Okay, so this is a subject I have been thinking about for a while and here
goes. I have been up and down the charts on TV issues, and certainly myself
struggled with whether there is some kind of "instrinsic" good or badness to
TV and how I feel about my children watching it all day. Having read a lot
of posts on this and another unschooling message board, I have come to feel
that it is in fact more useful for me to see it as a tool - one that can
certainly be abused (I have definitely seen folks who use it as a kind of
drug to shut problems and the world out) or used well.

However, since I have put the "good/bad" issue to the side, I have come to
see other issues with TV that seem at least in our house to require more
than just letting each kid watch whatever they want whenever they want. I
do want to say that I completely respect folks for whom that works out and
for whom no other issues arise! In our house we have found several issues -
in addition to the one Ren talked about - the fact that you wouldn't have
your sensitive children watch things that would traumatize them and give
them nightmares for weeks (and my daughter gets too scared to watch Disney
movies so that is a big consideration around here). For us this is not just
adult material. My daughter or son may pick out a video to watch that
scares the other one - even the sound of it or the "knowledge that the one
that scares me is on" is enough to terrify my very sensitive daughter, or
even my not quite so sensitive son. So we end up talking a lot about
considering the other person's feelings. Since my daughter is five, she is
able to better empathize and do in any situation what she would like done if
she were in the other person's shoes. With my three year old son, who does
not have that level, I sometimes have to "help" him find a solution that's
fair (since he thinks it's fine for him to watch what scares my dd but to
stop her from watching what scares him). Right now we are doing fairly well
with finding videos we all like, or agreeing to special time with Mama in
the farthest away room possible while the "scary" video is on, but sometimes
that doesn't work and I can't see that protecting the video watching child's
right to choose the video over the right of the child who finds it scary to
have a safe feeling emotional environment is right.

Another issue we've struggled with is I have discovered that I as a person
require a certain amount of peace and quiet in my living environment. This
is very different from my husband who loves having the noise of TV or the
radio on in the background. I find after a time the noise of the TV (and
for me that includes "visual" noise that catches my eye when I go by) or the
radio gives me headaches, makes me cranky and just drives me to the point I
want to crawl out of my skin. I should point out that we live in a very
small two bedroom house, so it's difficult to find space to get away from
that. Interestingly enough since I have brought this issue up for
discussion with my children, my daughter has voiced similar feelings and
asked for more overall quiet herself. My son went through a period around
the age of just turning 3 where he wanted to watch videos all the time and
it was an issue with noise for both me and my daughter. In this way, I view
TV as different from books (to which it is so often compared in unschooling
posts) - it has an output into the general environment in which we all live
that does impact me (and it seems my dd) in a way that we need honored.

The other issue we've decided to form an agreement around (and I do believe
in talking and forming agreements based on everyone's feelings instead of
imposing arbitrary limits, although that ability is limited in kids younger
than about the age of 4 unless they can empathize really early) is when they
ask to invite other kids over to play, then by the time the other kids get
here, five minutes into it one of them wants to watch a video. Then the kid
who got invited over gets mad because they came to play and they don't want
to watch a video, or not that video (which if we watch the ones they all
want in succession turns into a long bout of TV watching during which the
children who's video is not on resent the fact that the other kids are not
available to them to play). We had long talks about this which involved
feeling out how my dd would feel if she went to someone else's house to play
and the video situation happened. We decided it wasn't fair to invite
someone over with the expectation of playing, then turn on a video, and it
made more sense to have a general agreement for the TV to go off when
someone comes over to play, unless we have specifically invited them over to
watch a certain thing that has been agreed to ahead of time, and to ask them
(and by this I mean her cousins whom she sees regularly) to do the same if
we go to their house to play. This agreement has worked out really well and
even my 3 year old now who couldn't really get it at first now gleefully
pops up to turn it off when someone arrives to play.

So I guess I am saying that beyond issues of intrinsic goodness and badness
of TV it does to me seem to have other impacts in our house which have been
important to discuss and arrange some type of agreements around so that
everyone's feelings and choices can be honored as much as possible when they
can be so different.

Joan

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/16/2004 11:00:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
salgenovese@... writes:

is when they
ask to invite other kids over to play, then by the time the other kids get
here, five minutes into it one of them wants to watch a video. Then the kid
who got invited over gets mad because they came to play and they don't want
to watch a video, or not that video (which if we watch the ones they all
want in succession turns into a long bout of TV watching during which the
children who's video is not on resent the fact that the other kids are not
available to them to play).


<<<<

Our experience has been backwards:

Kids that are limited at home (tv and video games) come over and want to
watch tv or play video games. Duncan wants to play outside or swim or play board
games or bake cookies or..... They ONLY want to watch tv or play video games
because the can't at home.

Duncan has started hiding the Game Cube and X-box so that he can get them to
play.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

On Jun 16, 2004, at 7:56 AM, Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese wrote:

> So I guess I am saying that beyond issues of intrinsic goodness and
> badness
> of TV it does to me seem to have other impacts in our house which have
> been
> important to discuss and arrange some type of agreements around so that
> everyone's feelings and choices can be honored as much as possible
> when they
> can be so different.

Working those issues out is SO great though - that's a good reason to
NOT have arbitrary tv limits. If you, as mom, just said, "You may watch
one hour per day," then you'd have missed out on all the real thinking
and learning and considering each other that you've done.

My kids are 13, 16, and 19 now. The 19 yo is the one who was super
easily scared - very very very sensitive - couldn't watch many Disney
movies - they were too violent and scary for her when she was around 5
to 8 years old. She'd have nightmares - she STILL has really vivid
dreams that are much influenced by movies and tv. The now-16 yo always
"gets it" that it is a movie, is never so caught up that she forgets it
is "just a movie" and can watch absolutely anything without being
freaked out because she's always got part of her mind focused on the
technical side of the film - the acting, the lighting, the music, how
they do the special effects, etc. The 13 yo is not upset by scary
movies, but is completely destroyed by "sad" movies - we all have to be
REALLY careful about that. She's better able to handle it now - but we
made some mistakes in the past - "My Dog Skip" was a big blunder - she
was about 11 when we watched it and she sobbed all night over it. The
first time she watched West Side Story (we are HUGE musical theater
fans around here) was the same thing - she just fll apart into a puddle
- I don't know what we were thinking to not warn her away from that
one.

And I am the person in the family who slowly gets crankier and
grouchier when there is constant sound (3 teenage girls - all singers -
husband who loves sports on tv - think about it).

1. Cordless headphones for the tv - especially for my husband watching
sports
2. Personal portable cd players for the kids - with headphones, of
course - even when they were little kids they had personal portable
tape players for music and stories - lots of story tapes from
Scholastic.
3. A little tv/dvd in my oldest daughter's room because she likes it on
a lot more than anybody else - while she's crocheting or knitting or
drawing or collaging....

These are the things that saved my sanity over the years.
(Assuming it HAS been saved - which is debatable, I guess.)

-pam

National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese

-----Original Message-----
From: pam sorooshian [mailto:pamsoroosh@...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 12:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] TV - Issues of Imact Beyond Good and
Evil

"Working those issues out is SO great though - that's a good reason to
NOT have arbitrary tv limits. If you, as mom, just said, "You may watch
one hour per day," then you'd have missed out on all the real thinking
and learning and considering each other that you've done."

Gosh, good point. I do think that some of it has felt somewhat arbitrary to
my son since he is not really at that age of agreements yet - I really can't
wait till he gets there - but we have talked about what's behind it and
continue to talk. I will say that before I let go as much as I could of my
worrying about TV as good or evil I could not see these issues - I would
just blame the outcome on "the badness of TV" - so putting that to the side
enabled me to see the real stuff we needed to work on. Right now we all
seem to be really in sync and content about all of our needs regarding the
TV so I'm thinking somehow it has worked out so far. I will say that
reading your statement above about arbitrary versus agreed upon limits made
me quite relieved since I had gotten the impression - primarily from another
unschooling email list I left - that if my kids had anything other than
unlimited access to all of TV, I was somehow missing the point and missing
the boat and I felt quite excluded.

"My kids are 13, 16, and 19 now. The 19 yo is the one who was super
easily scared - very very very sensitive - couldn't watch many Disney
movies - they were too violent and scary for her when she was around 5
to 8 years old. She'd have nightmares - she STILL has really vivid
dreams that are much influenced by movies and tv. The now-16 yo always
"gets it" that it is a movie, is never so caught up that she forgets it
is "just a movie" and can watch absolutely anything without being
freaked out because she's always got part of her mind focused on the
technical side of the film - the acting, the lighting, the music, how
they do the special effects, etc. The 13 yo is not upset by scary
movies, but is completely destroyed by "sad" movies - we all have to be
REALLY careful about that. She's better able to handle it now - but we
made some mistakes in the past - "My Dog Skip" was a big blunder - she
was about 11 when we watched it and she sobbed all night over it. The
first time she watched West Side Story (we are HUGE musical theater
fans around here) was the same thing - she just fll apart into a puddle
- I don't know what we were thinking to not warn her away from that
one.

And I am the person in the family who slowly gets crankier and
grouchier when there is constant sound (3 teenage girls - all singers -
husband who loves sports on tv - think about it).

1. Cordless headphones for the tv - especially for my husband watching
sports
2. Personal portable cd players for the kids - with headphones, of
course - even when they were little kids they had personal portable
tape players for music and stories - lots of story tapes from
Scholastic.
3. A little tv/dvd in my oldest daughter's room because she likes it on
a lot more than anybody else - while she's crocheting or knitting or
drawing or collaging....

These are the things that saved my sanity over the years.
(Assuming it HAS been saved - which is debatable, I guess.)

-pam"

Thanks for sharing all of this, Pam. Good to know I'm not the only one
dealing with some of these issues and I appreciate the info on things that
helped even things out for you about noise issues!

Joan

earthmothergypsy

Joan,

I so agree with you. The issues you find beyond the "good/evil"
issues are the same for us at our house. I felt like I was reading
my own words. lol! There are a lot more things to consider than
just if tv is good or bad.

~Amanda


--- In [email protected], "Joan Labbe & Salvatore
Genovese" <salgenovese@w...> wrote:
> Okay, so this is a subject I have been thinking about for a while
and here
> goes. I have been up and down the charts on TV issues, and
certainly myself
> struggled with whether there is some kind of "instrinsic" good or
badness to
> TV and how I feel about my children watching it all day. Having
read a lot
> of posts on this and another unschooling message board, I have come
to feel
> that it is in fact more useful for me to see it as a tool - one
that can
> certainly be abused (I have definitely seen folks who use it as a
kind of
> drug to shut problems and the world out) or used well.
>
> However, since I have put the "good/bad" issue to the side, I have
come to
> see other issues with TV that seem at least in our house to require
more
> than just letting each kid watch whatever they want whenever they
want. I
> do want to say that I completely respect folks for whom that works
out and
> for whom no other issues arise! In our house we have found several
issues -
> in addition to the one Ren talked about - the fact that you
wouldn't have
> your sensitive children watch things that would traumatize them and
give
> them nightmares for weeks (and my daughter gets too scared to watch
Disney
> movies so that is a big consideration around here). For us this is
not just
> adult material. My daughter or son may pick out a video to watch
that
> scares the other one - even the sound of it or the "knowledge that
the one
> that scares me is on" is enough to terrify my very sensitive
daughter, or
> even my not quite so sensitive son. So we end up talking a lot
about
> considering the other person's feelings. Since my daughter is
five, she is
> able to better empathize and do in any situation what she would
like done if
> she were in the other person's shoes. With my three year old son,
who does
> not have that level, I sometimes have to "help" him find a solution
that's
> fair (since he thinks it's fine for him to watch what scares my dd
but to
> stop her from watching what scares him). Right now we are doing
fairly well
> with finding videos we all like, or agreeing to special time with
Mama in
> the farthest away room possible while the "scary" video is on, but
sometimes
> that doesn't work and I can't see that protecting the video
watching child's
> right to choose the video over the right of the child who finds it
scary to
> have a safe feeling emotional environment is right.
>
> Another issue we've struggled with is I have discovered that I as a
person
> require a certain amount of peace and quiet in my living
environment. This
> is very different from my husband who loves having the noise of TV
or the
> radio on in the background. I find after a time the noise of the
TV (and
> for me that includes "visual" noise that catches my eye when I go
by) or the
> radio gives me headaches, makes me cranky and just drives me to the
point I
> want to crawl out of my skin. I should point out that we live in a
very
> small two bedroom house, so it's difficult to find space to get
away from
> that. Interestingly enough since I have brought this issue up for
> discussion with my children, my daughter has voiced similar
feelings and
> asked for more overall quiet herself. My son went through a period
around
> the age of just turning 3 where he wanted to watch videos all the
time and
> it was an issue with noise for both me and my daughter. In this
way, I view
> TV as different from books (to which it is so often compared in
unschooling
> posts) - it has an output into the general environment in which we
all live
> that does impact me (and it seems my dd) in a way that we need
honored.
>
> The other issue we've decided to form an agreement around (and I do
believe
> in talking and forming agreements based on everyone's feelings
instead of
> imposing arbitrary limits, although that ability is limited in kids
younger
> than about the age of 4 unless they can empathize really early) is
when they
> ask to invite other kids over to play, then by the time the other
kids get
> here, five minutes into it one of them wants to watch a video.
Then the kid
> who got invited over gets mad because they came to play and they
don't want
> to watch a video, or not that video (which if we watch the ones
they all
> want in succession turns into a long bout of TV watching during
which the
> children who's video is not on resent the fact that the other kids
are not
> available to them to play). We had long talks about this which
involved
> feeling out how my dd would feel if she went to someone else's
house to play
> and the video situation happened. We decided it wasn't fair to
invite
> someone over with the expectation of playing, then turn on a video,
and it
> made more sense to have a general agreement for the TV to go off
when
> someone comes over to play, unless we have specifically invited
them over to
> watch a certain thing that has been agreed to ahead of time, and to
ask them
> (and by this I mean her cousins whom she sees regularly) to do the
same if
> we go to their house to play. This agreement has worked out really
well and
> even my 3 year old now who couldn't really get it at first now
gleefully
> pops up to turn it off when someone arrives to play.
>
> So I guess I am saying that beyond issues of intrinsic goodness and
badness
> of TV it does to me seem to have other impacts in our house which
have been
> important to discuss and arrange some type of agreements around so
that
> everyone's feelings and choices can be honored as much as possible
when they
> can be so different.
>
> Joan