Woops, this was supposed to go into my introduction
Lex Crump
Hi,
Lex here. So, I took Thor to play theropy and I've been reading my
books about autism and I mentioned to his theropist that I have been
doing something called unschooling and that our playgroup of about 40
or so kids is mostly unschooled. She was very interested in it and I
told her about john Holt who she was very familiar with. She was
courious and asked me the following and I thought I'd bring her
question to the group to be able to give her a better answer when I
return next week.
"If we assume that all children come into this world with an
unorganized brain, that only organizes itself with bumpming into
boundaries, how does this organization take place without boundaries?"
I must say that she was positive about my decision and curious. She
is a local guru for many people in town so I told her what I thought
and then said, "I don't really know how to answer this but I know
where I can find out." She said that she might revisit her Holt
books and find out more about unschooling. Pretty cool, I thought.
The tentative answer I gave her was that the "real world" my son is
exposed to everyday has many boundaries. And unlike children in
school who are given artificial boundaries like, everyone in first
grade is between the ages of 6 and 7, my son learns boundaries like
the library is filled with people between the ages of utero and 100
years old. I also told her that one doesn't stop being a parent.
I wish I had added that boundaries are offered when asked for. Child
says, "What will happen if I eat all my candy tonight?" Parent
says, "If you eat all the halloween candy tonight you may get a tummy
ache." Boundaries are also learned like the child that didn't ask
the above question and got a tummy ache after eating all his candy in
one night.
I thought the theropists question was thoughtful. Tell me what you
think.
Thanks,
Lex
Lex here. So, I took Thor to play theropy and I've been reading my
books about autism and I mentioned to his theropist that I have been
doing something called unschooling and that our playgroup of about 40
or so kids is mostly unschooled. She was very interested in it and I
told her about john Holt who she was very familiar with. She was
courious and asked me the following and I thought I'd bring her
question to the group to be able to give her a better answer when I
return next week.
"If we assume that all children come into this world with an
unorganized brain, that only organizes itself with bumpming into
boundaries, how does this organization take place without boundaries?"
I must say that she was positive about my decision and curious. She
is a local guru for many people in town so I told her what I thought
and then said, "I don't really know how to answer this but I know
where I can find out." She said that she might revisit her Holt
books and find out more about unschooling. Pretty cool, I thought.
The tentative answer I gave her was that the "real world" my son is
exposed to everyday has many boundaries. And unlike children in
school who are given artificial boundaries like, everyone in first
grade is between the ages of 6 and 7, my son learns boundaries like
the library is filled with people between the ages of utero and 100
years old. I also told her that one doesn't stop being a parent.
I wish I had added that boundaries are offered when asked for. Child
says, "What will happen if I eat all my candy tonight?" Parent
says, "If you eat all the halloween candy tonight you may get a tummy
ache." Boundaries are also learned like the child that didn't ask
the above question and got a tummy ache after eating all his candy in
one night.
I thought the theropists question was thoughtful. Tell me what you
think.
Thanks,
Lex
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/2/2005 9:24:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lex1972@... writes:
The tentative answer I gave her was that the "real world" my son is
exposed to everyday has many boundaries. And unlike children in
school who are given artificial boundaries like, everyone in first
grade is between the ages of 6 and 7, my son learns boundaries like
the library is filled with people between the ages of utero and 100
years old.
***************
Yes! And I can add to that from my own experience with my son, who is
likely somewheres on that spectrum.
He doesn't really understand, recognize, process, respond to those
artificial boundaries nearly as well as to the real ones. The real ones make sense to
him, so he is better able to recognize and respond appropriately to them. I
don't think he has a good way to "store" the artificial ones, when he does,
he takes them literally. When he was in montessori preschool, one of the
rules is to put away your work. He would sometimes spend his whole day walking
around waiting for someone to leave their work.....even if they were just
going to the bathroom....and say "you didn't put your work away!!!" That was a
good use of his time, not! :)
Interesting.
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lex1972@... writes:
The tentative answer I gave her was that the "real world" my son is
exposed to everyday has many boundaries. And unlike children in
school who are given artificial boundaries like, everyone in first
grade is between the ages of 6 and 7, my son learns boundaries like
the library is filled with people between the ages of utero and 100
years old.
***************
Yes! And I can add to that from my own experience with my son, who is
likely somewheres on that spectrum.
He doesn't really understand, recognize, process, respond to those
artificial boundaries nearly as well as to the real ones. The real ones make sense to
him, so he is better able to recognize and respond appropriately to them. I
don't think he has a good way to "store" the artificial ones, when he does,
he takes them literally. When he was in montessori preschool, one of the
rules is to put away your work. He would sometimes spend his whole day walking
around waiting for someone to leave their work.....even if they were just
going to the bathroom....and say "you didn't put your work away!!!" That was a
good use of his time, not! :)
Interesting.
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
"If we assume that all children come into this world
with an unorganized brain, that only organizes itself
with bumpming into boundaries, how does this
organization take place without boundaries?"
*****
First, I think her assumption is flawed. An infant's
brain may not work just as the adults would like, but
it's perfectly well put together for the needs of an
infant's life -- his sense of smell allows him to find
food; he cries when he feels pain, and calms when he's
embraced. His needs are simple, so the organization
required to meet them is simple.
Here are some definitions of organized, copied from
dictionary.com, along with my observations noted.
Functioning within a formal structure, as in the
coordination and direction of activities; (a child's
brain has a formal structure at birth, and as his
needs from the world around him change, the
organization in his brain adjusts/evolves to meet
those needs)
Efficient and methodical (a child's thoughts are
efficient -- for meeting the natural environment of
being a child, it's the unnatural demands of school
that are inefficient)
Put together into an orderly, functional, structured
whole;arranged in a coherent form;
again -- coherent and functional for whom? For the
child, the evolving organization of his brain is
perfectly functional and coherent for his natural
needs.
Here is where definitions get schooly:
systematized; Arranged in a desired pattern or
structure;
What makes it okay for any other person to devine
what's a desirable pattern, structure or system for an
individual brain? Why do schools/teachers or even
parents get to decide how another person's brain
should work, and when?
About boundaries -- those are constantly changing,
aren't they? I remember when people scoffed to ever
think a computer could be made small enough to fit
into a person's hand (then, they occupied entire rooms
with cabinets of reel-to-reel tapes). For thousands
of years people believed flight was impossible, that
travel in cars at speeds greater then 15mph would
cause physical injury.
In earlier times we lived with other boundaries,
expaned by things we take for granted today --
electricity, telephone, internal combustion engines,
steam driven motors. Many of those boundaries were
overcome by people who were deemed to have
'unorganized' brains, were eccentric or lived lives
outside the norm. Where would be if those people's
brains had been organized within the boundaries of
their time?
Life brings enough boundaries of its own, children
with developing awareness don't need us to add
unnatural boundaries. Part of our job is finding ways
to expand their world beyond our imposed boundaries to
their own natural boundaries.
Sylvia
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
with an unorganized brain, that only organizes itself
with bumpming into boundaries, how does this
organization take place without boundaries?"
*****
First, I think her assumption is flawed. An infant's
brain may not work just as the adults would like, but
it's perfectly well put together for the needs of an
infant's life -- his sense of smell allows him to find
food; he cries when he feels pain, and calms when he's
embraced. His needs are simple, so the organization
required to meet them is simple.
Here are some definitions of organized, copied from
dictionary.com, along with my observations noted.
Functioning within a formal structure, as in the
coordination and direction of activities; (a child's
brain has a formal structure at birth, and as his
needs from the world around him change, the
organization in his brain adjusts/evolves to meet
those needs)
Efficient and methodical (a child's thoughts are
efficient -- for meeting the natural environment of
being a child, it's the unnatural demands of school
that are inefficient)
Put together into an orderly, functional, structured
whole;arranged in a coherent form;
again -- coherent and functional for whom? For the
child, the evolving organization of his brain is
perfectly functional and coherent for his natural
needs.
Here is where definitions get schooly:
systematized; Arranged in a desired pattern or
structure;
What makes it okay for any other person to devine
what's a desirable pattern, structure or system for an
individual brain? Why do schools/teachers or even
parents get to decide how another person's brain
should work, and when?
About boundaries -- those are constantly changing,
aren't they? I remember when people scoffed to ever
think a computer could be made small enough to fit
into a person's hand (then, they occupied entire rooms
with cabinets of reel-to-reel tapes). For thousands
of years people believed flight was impossible, that
travel in cars at speeds greater then 15mph would
cause physical injury.
In earlier times we lived with other boundaries,
expaned by things we take for granted today --
electricity, telephone, internal combustion engines,
steam driven motors. Many of those boundaries were
overcome by people who were deemed to have
'unorganized' brains, were eccentric or lived lives
outside the norm. Where would be if those people's
brains had been organized within the boundaries of
their time?
Life brings enough boundaries of its own, children
with developing awareness don't need us to add
unnatural boundaries. Part of our job is finding ways
to expand their world beyond our imposed boundaries to
their own natural boundaries.
Sylvia
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
Pamela Sorooshian
On Nov 1, 2005, at 11:04 PM, Lex Crump wrote:
Unschoolers' brains organize by bumping into real boundaries, not
fake ones set up by school.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> "If we assume that all children come into this world with anEasy answer - and most truthful:
> unorganized brain, that only organizes itself with bumpming into
> boundaries, how does this organization take place without boundaries?"
>
Unschoolers' brains organize by bumping into real boundaries, not
fake ones set up by school.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lex Crump
--- In [email protected], Leslie530@a... wrote:
That PRT seminar is so fresh on my brain that I thought I would mention
that they said why these kids get certain "rules" and not others like
social "rules." It's because of contingency. The rule in the class to
put everything away is not contingent on anything real. Kids will
still gladly play in a room that is covered with every toy they own.
Why clean up? To get a new toy, an m&m, a sticker, a hug. None of
those things are contigent on putting the toy away. The teacher might
as well have demanded they touch their nose after they are done playing
with a toy.
My son is just now understanding we brush our teeth so our teeth stay
healthy but only because his teeth hurt him now and he tolerates the
brushing 10% of the time because he wants that "invisible sticky layer
of harmful bacteria" to go away.
And it's funny that my son is a "Rule Boy," too. He spends A lot of
his time in Chinese school (his idea) making sure everyone obeys the
rules. He seems to be multi-tasking, because he is meeting his goal of
learning to speak chinese (a wee tiny bit). My son likes everything to
be the same and when one kid isn't obeying the rules he freaks because
something is different and out of order. He wishes he didn't have to
worry about this but, unfortunately he is the type that can't formulate
help questions so we may ask him if he wants help. Then we will use PRT
to help him deal with things that are out of order so he can see that
disorder is okay, too.
Thanks for your comments,
Lex
>ones make sense to
>
> > He doesn't really understand, recognize, process, respond to those
> artificial boundaries nearly as well as to the real ones. The real
> him, so he is better able to recognize and respond appropriately tothem.
That PRT seminar is so fresh on my brain that I thought I would mention
that they said why these kids get certain "rules" and not others like
social "rules." It's because of contingency. The rule in the class to
put everything away is not contingent on anything real. Kids will
still gladly play in a room that is covered with every toy they own.
Why clean up? To get a new toy, an m&m, a sticker, a hug. None of
those things are contigent on putting the toy away. The teacher might
as well have demanded they touch their nose after they are done playing
with a toy.
My son is just now understanding we brush our teeth so our teeth stay
healthy but only because his teeth hurt him now and he tolerates the
brushing 10% of the time because he wants that "invisible sticky layer
of harmful bacteria" to go away.
And it's funny that my son is a "Rule Boy," too. He spends A lot of
his time in Chinese school (his idea) making sure everyone obeys the
rules. He seems to be multi-tasking, because he is meeting his goal of
learning to speak chinese (a wee tiny bit). My son likes everything to
be the same and when one kid isn't obeying the rules he freaks because
something is different and out of order. He wishes he didn't have to
worry about this but, unfortunately he is the type that can't formulate
help questions so we may ask him if he wants help. Then we will use PRT
to help him deal with things that are out of order so he can see that
disorder is okay, too.
Thanks for your comments,
Lex
Lex Crump
I really liked your answer. You are so right about the constantly
changeing boundaries and a babies need and supply of boundaries. I
think the play theropist must be coming from some school of thought
regarding child development. A behaviorist's point of view, maybe.
I loved the way "the unprocessed child" twisted my brain the way
higher math used to do. I think she'd appreciate that ride, too. I
may pick her up a copy.
I thought about your baby example a lot and I am thinking about
common practice in the USA compared to common practive on Earth.
There are more family beds than cribs on Earth. If, you consider all
countries in her unorganized baby question then, you may see American
babies' brains are organized inferiorly. Earth-wise, some kids
brains get more stimulation and organization by having no boundaries
on feeding, warmth, touch, sound, etc. as when a parent practices
attachment parenting (which is more common in other countries than in
the USA).
The more boundaries (having to cry it out at night, fed on a
schedule, stay in a crib all day and alone at night in a crib with no
warm body or breath or sound coming from that person who previously
carried you around 24/7 for 9 months) the more disorder and stress.
I think I barely remember a study comparing brain development (brain
Order?) in South American children (under 2 years) and USA children
(under 2). The South American children's brains were more developed
(ordered) and had more synaps connections than the USA kids. They
determined it was because the children were carried and slept with
and therefore given more stimulation than the USA kids that were left
alone in a crib all day and night. However after 2 years of age
because of poverty, malnutritian (once weaned), and no healthcare the
Crib babies win in the end.
For us, unschooling was a continuation to attachment parenting. And
we strongly believe that our son would be far worse (autistically
speaking) if we had bought a crib. I hope what is true for a baby
(unbounded learning) is true for a school age child and
highschooler. We'll find out in about 20 years I guess.
Thanks for your answer!
Lex
--- In [email protected], Sylvia Toyama
<sylgt04@y...> wrote:
changeing boundaries and a babies need and supply of boundaries. I
think the play theropist must be coming from some school of thought
regarding child development. A behaviorist's point of view, maybe.
I loved the way "the unprocessed child" twisted my brain the way
higher math used to do. I think she'd appreciate that ride, too. I
may pick her up a copy.
I thought about your baby example a lot and I am thinking about
common practice in the USA compared to common practive on Earth.
There are more family beds than cribs on Earth. If, you consider all
countries in her unorganized baby question then, you may see American
babies' brains are organized inferiorly. Earth-wise, some kids
brains get more stimulation and organization by having no boundaries
on feeding, warmth, touch, sound, etc. as when a parent practices
attachment parenting (which is more common in other countries than in
the USA).
The more boundaries (having to cry it out at night, fed on a
schedule, stay in a crib all day and alone at night in a crib with no
warm body or breath or sound coming from that person who previously
carried you around 24/7 for 9 months) the more disorder and stress.
I think I barely remember a study comparing brain development (brain
Order?) in South American children (under 2 years) and USA children
(under 2). The South American children's brains were more developed
(ordered) and had more synaps connections than the USA kids. They
determined it was because the children were carried and slept with
and therefore given more stimulation than the USA kids that were left
alone in a crib all day and night. However after 2 years of age
because of poverty, malnutritian (once weaned), and no healthcare the
Crib babies win in the end.
For us, unschooling was a continuation to attachment parenting. And
we strongly believe that our son would be far worse (autistically
speaking) if we had bought a crib. I hope what is true for a baby
(unbounded learning) is true for a school age child and
highschooler. We'll find out in about 20 years I guess.
Thanks for your answer!
Lex
--- In [email protected], Sylvia Toyama
<sylgt04@y...> wrote:
>
> "If we assume that all children come into this world
> with an unorganized brain, that only organizes itself
> with bumpming into boundaries, how does this
> organization take place without boundaries?"
>
> *****
>
> First, I think her assumption is flawed. An infant's
> brain may not work just as the adults would like, but
> it's perfectly well put together for the needs of an
> infant's life -- his sense of smell allows him to find
> food; he cries when he feels pain, and calms when he's
> embraced. His needs are simple, so the organization
> required to meet them is simple.
>
> Here are some definitions of organized, copied from
> dictionary.com, along with my observations noted.
>
> Functioning within a formal structure, as in the
> coordination and direction of activities; (a child's
> brain has a formal structure at birth, and as his
> needs from the world around him change, the
> organization in his brain adjusts/evolves to meet
> those needs)
>
> Efficient and methodical (a child's thoughts are
> efficient -- for meeting the natural environment of
> being a child, it's the unnatural demands of school
> that are inefficient)
>
> Put together into an orderly, functional, structured
> whole;arranged in a coherent form;
>
> again -- coherent and functional for whom? For the
> child, the evolving organization of his brain is
> perfectly functional and coherent for his natural
> needs.
>
> Here is where definitions get schooly:
>
> systematized; Arranged in a desired pattern or
> structure;
>
> What makes it okay for any other person to devine
> what's a desirable pattern, structure or system for an
> individual brain? Why do schools/teachers or even
> parents get to decide how another person's brain
> should work, and when?
>
> About boundaries -- those are constantly changing,
> aren't they? I remember when people scoffed to ever
> think a computer could be made small enough to fit
> into a person's hand (then, they occupied entire rooms
> with cabinets of reel-to-reel tapes). For thousands
> of years people believed flight was impossible, that
> travel in cars at speeds greater then 15mph would
> cause physical injury.
>
> In earlier times we lived with other boundaries,
> expaned by things we take for granted today --
> electricity, telephone, internal combustion engines,
> steam driven motors. Many of those boundaries were
> overcome by people who were deemed to have
> 'unorganized' brains, were eccentric or lived lives
> outside the norm. Where would be if those people's
> brains had been organized within the boundaries of
> their time?
>
> Life brings enough boundaries of its own, children
> with developing awareness don't need us to add
> unnatural boundaries. Part of our job is finding ways
> to expand their world beyond our imposed boundaries to
> their own natural boundaries.
>
> Sylvia
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>