clarification
thetaberskifamily
I just need to clarify I guess to feel if unschooling in the larger
sense is what we do. If, a year or 2 or 3 from now Allie or Libby
no longer showed an interest in doing anything that others might
deem "educational" or "schoolish" and did not want to read or be read
to or play games that involved math skills or did not want to
write/journal, etc. - and what they wanted to do was watch tv, play
video games (we don't even own any video games, but..). Essentially,
they did not want to be involved in our real life activities or any
of their interests that involve these skills (I can't even IMAGINE
this happening). They made a choice for an extended period of time -
I'm talking beyond just a few months. I would not shrug my
shoulders of course and just think "whatever, it's their choice". We
would talk, find out if there is something going on, if they are
having a hard time with it, and I would continue to involve them and
offer them opportunities. BUT, if they absolutely just pushed the
involvement/activities away and CHOSE to watch tv/play video games
(once again, I can't even imagine this for that long) I would not
think it was okay. And if I am interpreting things correctly, THAT
would NOT be unschooling, right? So keeping in mind that I can not
even fathom this circumstance I am trying to stretch my brain and
overthink more than I typically do to imagine if this happened. And
in our home/family that would not be okay. But someone asked a while
back that same kind of scenario and stated that if I was not okay
with letting it go that that wasn't unschooling. Could someone
clarify for me....I do not want to call ourselves something in our
home and to others that would give the wrong impression of what we do
or do not do or of what we think is acceptable or not.
Thank you,
Rebecca
sense is what we do. If, a year or 2 or 3 from now Allie or Libby
no longer showed an interest in doing anything that others might
deem "educational" or "schoolish" and did not want to read or be read
to or play games that involved math skills or did not want to
write/journal, etc. - and what they wanted to do was watch tv, play
video games (we don't even own any video games, but..). Essentially,
they did not want to be involved in our real life activities or any
of their interests that involve these skills (I can't even IMAGINE
this happening). They made a choice for an extended period of time -
I'm talking beyond just a few months. I would not shrug my
shoulders of course and just think "whatever, it's their choice". We
would talk, find out if there is something going on, if they are
having a hard time with it, and I would continue to involve them and
offer them opportunities. BUT, if they absolutely just pushed the
involvement/activities away and CHOSE to watch tv/play video games
(once again, I can't even imagine this for that long) I would not
think it was okay. And if I am interpreting things correctly, THAT
would NOT be unschooling, right? So keeping in mind that I can not
even fathom this circumstance I am trying to stretch my brain and
overthink more than I typically do to imagine if this happened. And
in our home/family that would not be okay. But someone asked a while
back that same kind of scenario and stated that if I was not okay
with letting it go that that wasn't unschooling. Could someone
clarify for me....I do not want to call ourselves something in our
home and to others that would give the wrong impression of what we do
or do not do or of what we think is acceptable or not.
Thank you,
Rebecca
[email protected]
>>and what they wanted to do was watch tv, playvideo games (we don't even own any video games, but..). Essentially,
they did not want to be involved in our real life activities or any
of their interests that involve these skills (I can't even IMAGINE
this happening). They made a choice for an extended period of time -
I'm talking beyond just a few months. I would not shrug my
shoulders of course and just think "whatever, it's their choice". We
would talk, find out if there is something going on, if they are
having a hard time with it, and I would continue to involve them and
offer them opportunities.>>
This sounds like what I would do too. I keep on offering and seeing what interests them.
>>BUT, if they absolutely just pushed theinvolvement/activities away and CHOSE to watch tv/play video games
(once again, I can't even imagine this for that long) I would not
think it was okay. And if I am interpreting things correctly, THAT
would NOT be unschooling, right?>>
This is kind of a bizarre question. What is it that you would actually do in this case? Sit them down with workbooks, assign reading material, have them write essays? I'm not sure what you're thinking of here.
I have a 16 year old son that LOVES video games. He hasn't always. He didn't get his first one until he was 13, but now he's passionate about them. He has friends online that he plays with, he reads magazines about them, searches for cheat codes, watches shows about them, dresses up as characters for Halloween, etc. Do I think it's okay. Yes. Do I also offer lots of opportunities to expand his world in other ways. Yes! And even with his passion for gaming, he also reads lots, goes to museums, nourishes his spiritual side, loves science and history shows, and on and on.
I think in this case you're taking the scenario out to an extreme that doesn't exist. My son is a gamer first and foremost. He still has lots of other interests and pursuits. If you offer interesting options, they WILL take you up on some of them.
--
~Mary
"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
frozenandcold
*If, a year or 2 or 3 from now Allie or Libby
no longer showed an interest in doing anything that others might
deem "educational" or "schoolish" and did not want to read or be read
to or play games that involved math skills or did not want to
write/journal, etc. - and what they wanted to do was watch tv, play
video games (we don't even own any video games, but..). Essentially,
they did not want to be involved in our real life activities or any
of their interests that involve these skills (I can't even IMAGINE
this happening). They made a choice for an extended period of time -
I'm talking beyond just a few months. I would not shrug my
shoulders of course and just think "whatever, it's their choice". *
Rebecca, I think I am qualified to answer this for you since I have
been there. Children are going to go through periods of time that
they don't want to do anything but watch tv and play video games. My
son is learning to read through video games along with a lot of other
things! We went through an entire year (after a death in the family,
a move, and leaving a very legalistic church that we were raised in)
that we basically didn't do anything except sit around the house and
play and my kids are FINE! We don't label things "education"
or "schoolish", we live a fun and interesting life and they learn
things through living. I don't really give any thought to what they
are learning or if it is "educational" but I know they are when I am
in the store trying to figure out a sale price (percentage) and my ten
year old, that does not do any kind of formal math, gives me the
answer. How did he learn that? Through living with a family that
leads an interesting life and involves their children in ALL aspects
of their lives including buying and selling real estate, paying bills,
managing a budget, etc. I think the one thing that you are missing,
but you are almost there, is simply trusting that your kids will learn
what they need to know to get along in this big ol' world.
I haven't known a child, that is trusted and given the resources, that
doesn't want to figure out the world around them. Kids are naturally
interested in knowing things. The only instance, that I know of, that
a child will resist learning is when they are coerced to do so. And
every child is going to have different things that they want or need
to know. I have NEVER in my life used algebra so all the years that I
was forced to do algebra was wasted time that I could have used for
much more interesting things that would have been more meaningful for
MY life. I think ONLY our children can be the judge of what
information they are going to need for THEIR lives. Our job is to put
lots of interesting things out for them and expose them to lots of
different things but not to force anything.
As far as the movies etc. that you feel they shouldn't be watching,
etc................Are there things that you watch or are exposed to
that you just don't care for and then decide not to watch or be a part
of? Does your husband ever tell you "Sorry honey, you can't watch
that, it is just not something you should be watching." You decide
those things for yourself right? The same should be true of kids.
Otherwise, it is fear that is ruling you. I am a Christian so I do
understand your thought process because I was there once, the problem
is that kids have to touch, feel, see to figure out how they feel
about certain things. I remember watching horror movies (sneaking) at
friends houses that I could get away with it because I was intrigued.
My parents said I couldn't watch them but did it stop me? Absolutely
not. I found out on my own that I don't care for them because they
freak me out so I don't watch them anymore.
I had an incident last night where my daughter wanted to watch the
Prophecy and I was a little leary because I know she is very sensitive
and gets nightmares so my husband told her about every scary part of
the movie and we talked about how that might make her feel to watch
that. She said that it would probably make her feel bad but she still
wanted to watch it. I told her that I would be in my room so if she
got scared she could come sit with me. Within five minutes she was in
my room telling me that her eyes told her they didn't want to watch
those things.
It is all about letting go and trusting that your kids will figure out
those things on there own. Someone on one of these lists has this on
their signature line, from a website: This deep self, our wise and
knowing simple animal being, when not interfered with unerringly,
instinctively moves us toward that which grows and nurtures us. Just
as unfailing, it moves us away from all that endangers us on any
level. Robyn Posin
I know, from experience with my children, that this is very true. It
is all about TRUST!!
Heidi
Children aren't coloring books. You can't fill them with your
favorite colors. From The Kite Runner
no longer showed an interest in doing anything that others might
deem "educational" or "schoolish" and did not want to read or be read
to or play games that involved math skills or did not want to
write/journal, etc. - and what they wanted to do was watch tv, play
video games (we don't even own any video games, but..). Essentially,
they did not want to be involved in our real life activities or any
of their interests that involve these skills (I can't even IMAGINE
this happening). They made a choice for an extended period of time -
I'm talking beyond just a few months. I would not shrug my
shoulders of course and just think "whatever, it's their choice". *
Rebecca, I think I am qualified to answer this for you since I have
been there. Children are going to go through periods of time that
they don't want to do anything but watch tv and play video games. My
son is learning to read through video games along with a lot of other
things! We went through an entire year (after a death in the family,
a move, and leaving a very legalistic church that we were raised in)
that we basically didn't do anything except sit around the house and
play and my kids are FINE! We don't label things "education"
or "schoolish", we live a fun and interesting life and they learn
things through living. I don't really give any thought to what they
are learning or if it is "educational" but I know they are when I am
in the store trying to figure out a sale price (percentage) and my ten
year old, that does not do any kind of formal math, gives me the
answer. How did he learn that? Through living with a family that
leads an interesting life and involves their children in ALL aspects
of their lives including buying and selling real estate, paying bills,
managing a budget, etc. I think the one thing that you are missing,
but you are almost there, is simply trusting that your kids will learn
what they need to know to get along in this big ol' world.
I haven't known a child, that is trusted and given the resources, that
doesn't want to figure out the world around them. Kids are naturally
interested in knowing things. The only instance, that I know of, that
a child will resist learning is when they are coerced to do so. And
every child is going to have different things that they want or need
to know. I have NEVER in my life used algebra so all the years that I
was forced to do algebra was wasted time that I could have used for
much more interesting things that would have been more meaningful for
MY life. I think ONLY our children can be the judge of what
information they are going to need for THEIR lives. Our job is to put
lots of interesting things out for them and expose them to lots of
different things but not to force anything.
As far as the movies etc. that you feel they shouldn't be watching,
etc................Are there things that you watch or are exposed to
that you just don't care for and then decide not to watch or be a part
of? Does your husband ever tell you "Sorry honey, you can't watch
that, it is just not something you should be watching." You decide
those things for yourself right? The same should be true of kids.
Otherwise, it is fear that is ruling you. I am a Christian so I do
understand your thought process because I was there once, the problem
is that kids have to touch, feel, see to figure out how they feel
about certain things. I remember watching horror movies (sneaking) at
friends houses that I could get away with it because I was intrigued.
My parents said I couldn't watch them but did it stop me? Absolutely
not. I found out on my own that I don't care for them because they
freak me out so I don't watch them anymore.
I had an incident last night where my daughter wanted to watch the
Prophecy and I was a little leary because I know she is very sensitive
and gets nightmares so my husband told her about every scary part of
the movie and we talked about how that might make her feel to watch
that. She said that it would probably make her feel bad but she still
wanted to watch it. I told her that I would be in my room so if she
got scared she could come sit with me. Within five minutes she was in
my room telling me that her eyes told her they didn't want to watch
those things.
It is all about letting go and trusting that your kids will figure out
those things on there own. Someone on one of these lists has this on
their signature line, from a website: This deep self, our wise and
knowing simple animal being, when not interfered with unerringly,
instinctively moves us toward that which grows and nurtures us. Just
as unfailing, it moves us away from all that endangers us on any
level. Robyn Posin
I know, from experience with my children, that this is very true. It
is all about TRUST!!
Heidi
Children aren't coloring books. You can't fill them with your
favorite colors. From The Kite Runner
thetaberskifamily
--- In [email protected], "frozenandcold"
<fivefreebirds@m...> wrote:
stopping! I read somewhere that an intense interest will lead
everywhere and that is absolutely at the core of what I believe. I
was indeed taking my example to the extreme (I can't imagine them NOT
being interested in SOMETHING that was going to result in true
learning). I guess I was wondering if that was something that went
on in your homes/lives. Children "choosing" to not learn through
their interests/passions. And sorry, I don't consider watching
television 8 to 10 hours a day for months and months on end very high
in the area of quality learning (yes, lots of learning comes through
television, even in our home - I think sometimes a shockingly large
amount - lol). There'd be some serious sparking of other interests
going on at that point in our home.
Here I disagree...7 and 5 year olds still need to have filtering done
with what they watch.
I do not want in their minds at this point in their young lives.
Those things take a second to flash across the screen and are hard to
get out of their little minds. I don't think it has anything to do
with trust or not trusting.
Rebecca
<fivefreebirds@m...> wrote:
> Rebecca, I think I am qualified to answer this for you since I haveMy
> been there. Children are going to go through periods of time that
> they don't want to do anything but watch tv and play video games.
> son is learning to read through video games along with a lot ofother
> things! We went through an entire year (after a death in thefamily,
> a move, and leaving a very legalistic church that we were raisedin)
> that we basically didn't do anything except sit around the houseand
> play and my kids are FINE! We don't label things "education"they
> or "schoolish", we live a fun and interesting life and they learn
> things through living. I don't really give any thought to what
> you are almost there, is simply trusting that your kids will learnI am there....I see what goes on and just can't imagine it ever
> what they need to know to get along in this big ol' world.
>
stopping! I read somewhere that an intense interest will lead
everywhere and that is absolutely at the core of what I believe. I
was indeed taking my example to the extreme (I can't imagine them NOT
being interested in SOMETHING that was going to result in true
learning). I guess I was wondering if that was something that went
on in your homes/lives. Children "choosing" to not learn through
their interests/passions. And sorry, I don't consider watching
television 8 to 10 hours a day for months and months on end very high
in the area of quality learning (yes, lots of learning comes through
television, even in our home - I think sometimes a shockingly large
amount - lol). There'd be some serious sparking of other interests
going on at that point in our home.
> As far as the movies etc. that you feel they shouldn't be watching,to
> etc................Are there things that you watch or are exposed
> that you just don't care for and then decide not to watch or be apart
> of? Does your husband ever tell you "Sorry honey, you can't watchdo
> that, it is just not something you should be watching." You decide
> those things for yourself right? The same should be true of kids.
> Otherwise, it is fear that is ruling you. I am a Christian so I
> understand your thought process because I was there once, theproblem
Here I disagree...7 and 5 year olds still need to have filtering done
with what they watch.
> It is all about letting go and trusting that your kids will figureout
> those things on there own.7 and 5!!! There are certain graphic, scary images and language that
I do not want in their minds at this point in their young lives.
Those things take a second to flash across the screen and are hard to
get out of their little minds. I don't think it has anything to do
with trust or not trusting.
Rebecca
frozenandcold
Rebecca, there is a difference between someone who calls themselves an
unschooler and someone who calls themselves radical unschoolers.
Radical unschoolers or whole life unschoolers take the philosophy into
ALL areas of their lives. This usually happens with most unschoolers
simply because if you trust them enough to know what they need to
know, why wouldn't you trust them in other areas of their lives?
There is really no line there and you usually drift into whole life
unschooling without even realizing it (was the case for me). From what
I can gather from your posts I would say you are a beginning
unschooler, not quite grasping the philosophy completely but
questioning it enough that you might eventually get there. I think the
basic thing that everyone is trying to get across to you is to
question everything you do! So many of our thoughts and actions are
reflex thoughts and actions based on how we were raised and what
society is telling us and we need to question that CONSTANTLY. No one
can tell you how to live or parent, we are simply telling you how it
is when you live the radical unschooling life, the way we are
passionate about living, what you do with that is up to you.
Heidi
unschooler and someone who calls themselves radical unschoolers.
Radical unschoolers or whole life unschoolers take the philosophy into
ALL areas of their lives. This usually happens with most unschoolers
simply because if you trust them enough to know what they need to
know, why wouldn't you trust them in other areas of their lives?
There is really no line there and you usually drift into whole life
unschooling without even realizing it (was the case for me). From what
I can gather from your posts I would say you are a beginning
unschooler, not quite grasping the philosophy completely but
questioning it enough that you might eventually get there. I think the
basic thing that everyone is trying to get across to you is to
question everything you do! So many of our thoughts and actions are
reflex thoughts and actions based on how we were raised and what
society is telling us and we need to question that CONSTANTLY. No one
can tell you how to live or parent, we are simply telling you how it
is when you live the radical unschooling life, the way we are
passionate about living, what you do with that is up to you.
Heidi
Pamela Sorooshian
On Oct 31, 2005, at 9:42 PM, thetaberskifamily wrote:
call our little kids in and put them in a chair and say, "Watch this?"
We carefully chose what WE watched when the little kids were around.
And we fast forwarded through things, we muted the sound, we
distracted...if my kids came in when my dh and I were watching
something I thought would disturb them, usually I'd just get up and
take the kids off to play somewhere else. My dh would finish the
movie and I'd watch it another time. Or we'd just turn it to
something else or turn it off.
Do your 5 and 7 year olds want to watch something that you think is
bad for them? Are they asking to watch something you think you need
to filter?
My kids are 20, 18, and 14. When they were little they wanted to
watch Mr. Rogers and other PBS children's shows, mostly. They were
thrilled with a few Disney movies (Beauty and the Beast, for example)
and scared of others. I'm wondering where your kids are getting the
idea of watching things you think need to be filtered?
I'm STILL telling my kids not to watch "Silence of the Lambs,"
because i think it'll be disturbing. There are movies I wish I'd
never watched (as an adult). But, these days, my kids are more likely
to warn ME about something - tell me when they think I won't like it.
My almost-21 year old rented the first season of "Lost" earlier this
week. She told me I probably wouldn't like it - too gory in the first
couple of episodes and it involves paranormal stuff which she knows
always seems really boring to me (X-Files, for example, just put me
to sleep).
It SEEMS like you think that the kids will want to do some pretty
stupid things if adults don't set limits - stay up all night, watch
inappropriate tv, eat junk food? AND this is typically true, so I
can see how one would believe it. It is true of kids who live in a
world of limits. But kids who live in a world of opportunities and
support and help in getting what they want, rather than constraints
and controls, seem to be able to "choose" intelligently for themselves.
Rosie (my 14 yo) is at an overnight Halloween party tonight. I have
absolutely no doubt that she'll eat well - probably won't even eat
any candy at all - maybe will have a piece of pie, plus some regular
food. She'll stay up a bit too late (it is a party) and she'll go in
the other room and do something else if a too-scary movie is watched.
Roxana is at a party where there will be alcohol - it is mostly
college students, ages from about 16 to 30 or so. She won't drink,
she won't get in a car with anybody who has been drinking. If there
is too much drinking, she'll get bored and she'll get a ride home
with somebody who hasn't had anything to drink or she'll call me. I
picked her and another 18 yo girl up from another party earlier this
week.
Roya is asleep - she had a night class and came home at 10 pm and
went to bed. She's busy with college and work and other activities
and even though she "could" stay up as late as she wants, she chooses
to go to sleep early so she'll feel good tomorrow.
Better to let them start making all the choices possible when they're
little, Rebecca, so that you can trust them to make good choices when
they get older and the choices are serious ones.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Here I disagree...7 and 5 year olds still need to have filtering doneOf course they do. Do you think WE turn on "Freddy versus Jason" and
> with what they watch.
call our little kids in and put them in a chair and say, "Watch this?"
We carefully chose what WE watched when the little kids were around.
And we fast forwarded through things, we muted the sound, we
distracted...if my kids came in when my dh and I were watching
something I thought would disturb them, usually I'd just get up and
take the kids off to play somewhere else. My dh would finish the
movie and I'd watch it another time. Or we'd just turn it to
something else or turn it off.
Do your 5 and 7 year olds want to watch something that you think is
bad for them? Are they asking to watch something you think you need
to filter?
My kids are 20, 18, and 14. When they were little they wanted to
watch Mr. Rogers and other PBS children's shows, mostly. They were
thrilled with a few Disney movies (Beauty and the Beast, for example)
and scared of others. I'm wondering where your kids are getting the
idea of watching things you think need to be filtered?
I'm STILL telling my kids not to watch "Silence of the Lambs,"
because i think it'll be disturbing. There are movies I wish I'd
never watched (as an adult). But, these days, my kids are more likely
to warn ME about something - tell me when they think I won't like it.
My almost-21 year old rented the first season of "Lost" earlier this
week. She told me I probably wouldn't like it - too gory in the first
couple of episodes and it involves paranormal stuff which she knows
always seems really boring to me (X-Files, for example, just put me
to sleep).
It SEEMS like you think that the kids will want to do some pretty
stupid things if adults don't set limits - stay up all night, watch
inappropriate tv, eat junk food? AND this is typically true, so I
can see how one would believe it. It is true of kids who live in a
world of limits. But kids who live in a world of opportunities and
support and help in getting what they want, rather than constraints
and controls, seem to be able to "choose" intelligently for themselves.
Rosie (my 14 yo) is at an overnight Halloween party tonight. I have
absolutely no doubt that she'll eat well - probably won't even eat
any candy at all - maybe will have a piece of pie, plus some regular
food. She'll stay up a bit too late (it is a party) and she'll go in
the other room and do something else if a too-scary movie is watched.
Roxana is at a party where there will be alcohol - it is mostly
college students, ages from about 16 to 30 or so. She won't drink,
she won't get in a car with anybody who has been drinking. If there
is too much drinking, she'll get bored and she'll get a ride home
with somebody who hasn't had anything to drink or she'll call me. I
picked her and another 18 yo girl up from another party earlier this
week.
Roya is asleep - she had a night class and came home at 10 pm and
went to bed. She's busy with college and work and other activities
and even though she "could" stay up as late as she wants, she chooses
to go to sleep early so she'll feel good tomorrow.
Better to let them start making all the choices possible when they're
little, Rebecca, so that you can trust them to make good choices when
they get older and the choices are serious ones.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
frozenandcold
You made some good points Pam, maybe that is the idea that I was
missing when I responded. My kids, because they have been free to
make their own choices with the support of caring adults, they don't
want to do things or watch things or hear things that make them
uncomfortable. At the same time, there are times that pop up where
they really want to do, watch, hear something that they "think" they
are going to like or are drawn to for some reason or another. I
don't just say "No way, you aren't going to do that." We talk about
it, what they are going to see, do, whatever and how it might make
them feel but, ultimately I leave it up to them, but because I am
there to help and they have the freedom to choose, they choose
things that make them feel good. Does that make sense? It isn't
that I just say "Do whatever you want, I don't care", they get a lot
of guidance and we often even discuss our spiritual belief's and how
that fits into some things but in the long run I don't try to
control them or make those decisions for them.
*Of course they do. Do you think WE turn on "Freddy versus Jason" and
call our little kids in and put them in a chair and say, "Watch
this?"
We carefully chose what WE watched when the little kids were around.
And we fast forwarded through things, we muted the sound, we
distracted...if my kids came in when my dh and I were watching
something I thought would disturb them, usually I'd just get up and
take the kids off to play somewhere else. My dh would finish the
movie and I'd watch it another time. Or we'd just turn it to
something else or turn it off.*
I think this is another key, we don't purposely surround our kids
with things that we wouldn't want them to be exposed to. We try to
keep our home a peaceful, loving environment filled with healthy
things, both emotionally and physically. My family loves to watch
Medium too but some of the images are way too graphic for my
daughter but she likes the stories so when we know a scene is coming
we cover her eyes, which she prefers.
Heidi
missing when I responded. My kids, because they have been free to
make their own choices with the support of caring adults, they don't
want to do things or watch things or hear things that make them
uncomfortable. At the same time, there are times that pop up where
they really want to do, watch, hear something that they "think" they
are going to like or are drawn to for some reason or another. I
don't just say "No way, you aren't going to do that." We talk about
it, what they are going to see, do, whatever and how it might make
them feel but, ultimately I leave it up to them, but because I am
there to help and they have the freedom to choose, they choose
things that make them feel good. Does that make sense? It isn't
that I just say "Do whatever you want, I don't care", they get a lot
of guidance and we often even discuss our spiritual belief's and how
that fits into some things but in the long run I don't try to
control them or make those decisions for them.
*Of course they do. Do you think WE turn on "Freddy versus Jason" and
call our little kids in and put them in a chair and say, "Watch
this?"
We carefully chose what WE watched when the little kids were around.
And we fast forwarded through things, we muted the sound, we
distracted...if my kids came in when my dh and I were watching
something I thought would disturb them, usually I'd just get up and
take the kids off to play somewhere else. My dh would finish the
movie and I'd watch it another time. Or we'd just turn it to
something else or turn it off.*
I think this is another key, we don't purposely surround our kids
with things that we wouldn't want them to be exposed to. We try to
keep our home a peaceful, loving environment filled with healthy
things, both emotionally and physically. My family loves to watch
Medium too but some of the images are way too graphic for my
daughter but she likes the stories so when we know a scene is coming
we cover her eyes, which she prefers.
Heidi
Brandie
Heidi said:
reading, playing games with math skills, journaling,
etc. and you trust that they will learn what they need
to know -- is this correct?
But you said that if they stopped reading and only
wanted to watch TV and play video games, you would not
be okay with that.
This is because you don't (yet?) truly see how
learning takes place in EVERYTHING and EVERYWHERE.
Which is also why you say that you can't imagine
"learning stopping". It doesn't stop. Even if they
only wanted to play video games and watch TV -- it
does not stop.
learning.
something, it is their interest at that point and
time.
Brandie
http://tableforfive.blogspot.com
http://homemadeliving.blogspot.com
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> is simply trusting that your kids will learnRebecca said:
> what they need to know to get along in this big
> ol' world.
> I am there....I see what goes on and just can'tWell, right now you see them doing things like
> imagine it ever stopping!
reading, playing games with math skills, journaling,
etc. and you trust that they will learn what they need
to know -- is this correct?
But you said that if they stopped reading and only
wanted to watch TV and play video games, you would not
be okay with that.
This is because you don't (yet?) truly see how
learning takes place in EVERYTHING and EVERYWHERE.
Which is also why you say that you can't imagine
"learning stopping". It doesn't stop. Even if they
only wanted to play video games and watch TV -- it
does not stop.
> true learning).There is no such thing as true learning. Learning is
learning.
>Children "choosing" to not learn throughChildren learn through EVERYTHING. And if they do
> their interests/passions.
something, it is their interest at that point and
time.
> yes, lots ofBut not "quality" in your opinion?
> learning comes through
> television, even in our home
Brandie
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http://homemadeliving.blogspot.com
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<<7 and 5 year olds still need filtering in what they watch>>
I agree. But with my kids, I have found that they really do filter on their own if given a chance. It is Halloween week, one of our favorite holidays. Lots of scary movies on with the older kids, the younger ones go do something else or if they feel up to it, watch the movie and use the music as clues as to when to close their eyes.
As far as graphic violence and sexual content, I have yet to see a young kid that actively seeks that out unless for some reason they see it as "forbidden fruit" or something that "big kids do."
I don't watch graphic tv or videos, just doesn't interest me. My 14yo does. I asked her to be considerate of the younger kids and not put that stuff out in front of them, that they will find it on their own soon enough. She could understand that and is considerate.
My little guys (2 six year olds) stumbled on some porn on the internet. They immediately came and told me there was "gross stuff" on the computer and could I get them to Disney.com. It didn't scar them, it empowered them.
Julie S.
I agree. But with my kids, I have found that they really do filter on their own if given a chance. It is Halloween week, one of our favorite holidays. Lots of scary movies on with the older kids, the younger ones go do something else or if they feel up to it, watch the movie and use the music as clues as to when to close their eyes.
As far as graphic violence and sexual content, I have yet to see a young kid that actively seeks that out unless for some reason they see it as "forbidden fruit" or something that "big kids do."
I don't watch graphic tv or videos, just doesn't interest me. My 14yo does. I asked her to be considerate of the younger kids and not put that stuff out in front of them, that they will find it on their own soon enough. She could understand that and is considerate.
My little guys (2 six year olds) stumbled on some porn on the internet. They immediately came and told me there was "gross stuff" on the computer and could I get them to Disney.com. It didn't scar them, it empowered them.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: thetaberskifamily <thetaberskifamily@...>
Date: Monday, October 31, 2005 11:42 pm
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: clarification
> --- In [email protected], "frozenandcold"
> <fivefreebirds@m...> wrote:
>
> > Rebecca, I think I am qualified to answer this for you since I
> have
> > been there. Children are going to go through periods of time
> that
> > they don't want to do anything but watch tv and play video
> games.
> My
> > son is learning to read through video games along with a lot of
> other
> > things! We went through an entire year (after a death in the
> family,
> > a move, and leaving a very legalistic church that we were raised
> in)
> > that we basically didn't do anything except sit around the house
> and
> > play and my kids are FINE! We don't label things "education"
> > or "schoolish", we live a fun and interesting life and they
> learn
> > things through living. I don't really give any thought to what
> they
> > you are almost there, is simply trusting that your kids will
> learn
> > what they need to know to get along in this big ol' world.
> >
> I am there....I see what goes on and just can't imagine it ever
> stopping! I read somewhere that an intense interest will lead
> everywhere and that is absolutely at the core of what I believe.
> I
> was indeed taking my example to the extreme (I can't imagine them
> NOT
> being interested in SOMETHING that was going to result in true
> learning). I guess I was wondering if that was something that
> went
> on in your homes/lives. Children "choosing" to not learn through
> their interests/passions. And sorry, I don't consider watching
> television 8 to 10 hours a day for months and months on end very
> high
> in the area of quality learning (yes, lots of learning comes
> through
> television, even in our home - I think sometimes a shockingly
> large
> amount - lol). There'd be some serious sparking of other
> interests
> going on at that point in our home.
>
> > As far as the movies etc. that you feel they shouldn't be
> watching,
> > etc................Are there things that you watch or are
> exposed
> to
> > that you just don't care for and then decide not to watch or be
> a
> part
> > of? Does your husband ever tell you "Sorry honey, you can't
> watch
> > that, it is just not something you should be watching." You
> decide
> > those things for yourself right? The same should be true of
> kids.
> > Otherwise, it is fear that is ruling you. I am a Christian so
> I
> do
> > understand your thought process because I was there once, the
> problem
>
> Here I disagree...7 and 5 year olds still need to have filtering
> done
> with what they watch.
>
> > It is all about letting go and trusting that your kids will
> figure
> out
> > those things on there own.
>
> 7 and 5!!! There are certain graphic, scary images and language
> that
> I do not want in their minds at this point in their young lives.
> Those things take a second to flash across the screen and are hard
> to
> get out of their little minds. I don't think it has anything to
> do
> with trust or not trusting.
>
> Rebecca
>
>
>
>
>
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thetaberskifamily
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
necessarily YOU) let them choose...Freddy or not.
not be appropriate. They choose what they want to watch but it's
from appropriate channels, shows, videos and dvd's that we have or
the children/family section at the video store. But if they wanted
to watch Riddick or Blade for instance there would just be too
content I wouldn't feel comfortable with them seeing at this age.
sleep).
I do think they need to choose intelligently for themselves and they
do....I have just read too much about parents still struggling with
very young children staying up till all hours of the to fully be able
to trust that they will (after and adjustment period of course) just
know that they need to go to bed in order for their bodies to get
enough sleep. I think young kids need some guidance in that area.
Remember, we do not have arbitrary bedtimes and while you can put a
child to bed you cannot make them go to sleep. I know this.
balance and guidelines and a modicum of common sense. Maybe we're
close to being on the same page here but we're getting hung up on
words...
Rebecca
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
> Of course they do. Do you think WE turn on "Freddy versus Jason"and
> call our little kids in and put them in a chair and say, "Watchthis?"
>I kind of got the impression from another post that you (not
necessarily YOU) let them choose...Freddy or not.
>is
> Do your 5 and 7 year olds want to watch something that you think
> bad for them? Are they asking to watch something you think youneed
> to filter?They would probably enjoy watching some shows and movies that would
not be appropriate. They choose what they want to watch but it's
from appropriate channels, shows, videos and dvd's that we have or
the children/family section at the video store. But if they wanted
to watch Riddick or Blade for instance there would just be too
content I wouldn't feel comfortable with them seeing at this age.
sleep).
>watch
> It SEEMS like you think that the kids will want to do some pretty
> stupid things if adults don't set limits - stay up all night,
> inappropriate tv, eat junk food? AND this is typically true, so Iconstraints
> can see how one would believe it. It is true of kids who live in a
> world of limits. But kids who live in a world of opportunities and
> support and help in getting what they want, rather than
> and controls, seem to be able to "choose" intelligently forthemselves.
I do think they need to choose intelligently for themselves and they
do....I have just read too much about parents still struggling with
very young children staying up till all hours of the to fully be able
to trust that they will (after and adjustment period of course) just
know that they need to go to bed in order for their bodies to get
enough sleep. I think young kids need some guidance in that area.
Remember, we do not have arbitrary bedtimes and while you can put a
child to bed you cannot make them go to sleep. I know this.
> Better to let them start making all the choices possible whenthey're
> little, Rebecca, so that you can trust them to make good choiceswhen
> they get older and the choices are serious ones.Not talking about not letting them make choices...talking about
balance and guidelines and a modicum of common sense. Maybe we're
close to being on the same page here but we're getting hung up on
words...
Rebecca
>
thetaberskifamily
--- In [email protected], Brandie <scrapdiva73@y...>
wrote:
find it natural for an extended period (not just days or weeks) of time
for a child not be interested in participating in the world, exploring,
working, playing, reading, etc.
Rebecca
wrote:
> > yes, lots ofNot if that were the only thing they were interested in....I wouldn't
> > learning comes through
> > television, even in our home
>
> But not "quality" in your opinion?
>
> Brandie
find it natural for an extended period (not just days or weeks) of time
for a child not be interested in participating in the world, exploring,
working, playing, reading, etc.
Rebecca
Brandie
> --- Brandie wrote:--- thetaberskifamily wrote:
> > But not "quality" in your opinion?
> Not if that were the only thing they were interestedI'm confused...so, TV *can* be quality learning in
> in....
your opinion IF they are interested in other things?
Why does being interested in other things suddenly
make TV a quality learning experience?
What I am trying to get across is that learning is
learning. There is no "quality learning" and then
also just "learning".
Brandie
http://tableforfive.blogspot.com
http://homemadeliving.blogspot.com
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<<very young children staying up all night>>
<<balance and guidelines and a modicum of common sense>>
Both of these statements can be true though. When she was 5, I would have been very comfortable with my now 14yo staying up way late without us. She has always been extremely responsible, understanding of other's needs, etc.. Funny thing is that she is usually in bed no later than 10 because she has a pretty busy life. She is frequently angry that people judge her due to her age based on what they assume ALL 14yos are like, rather than on who she is, what her strengths are.
My now 6yo.....don't know if I will ever be comfortable with his being out of my sight <sigh, grin>. He has very little concept of danger and is not patient enough yet to wait until somebody is able to help him do things. So he ends up in situations that scare the pants off me...even when I am fully awake. So Dan doesn't stay up late without us....sometimes we all stay up together, sometimes he sleeps with me, sometimes I massage his feet, sometimes I read him a story, but I "gentle" him into resting. No yelling, no screaming, no tears, no arbitrary "Bedtime is 8:00".
No arbitrary limits doesn't mean that the kids (or I for that matter) do whatever we want regardless of the consequences. We live in a family and so everyone's needs must be considered. I try to think of it as living in consensus. Trying to find a way everyone can be happy, if not completely satisfied.
In consensus, if a member is not able to agree to the action, you try to find a way to meet the member's concern. If they are still unable to agree, then the action is simply tabled.
If Zach wants to stay up all night and he is safe and not interfering with others, no problem, everyone can agree to that. If Zach wants to stay up but is loud and is interfering with people's sleep, then we try to find a solution. If we are unable to find a solution and Zach is unwilling to tone down the noise, then Zach's staying up all night is tabled until we can find a solution.
Julie S.
<<balance and guidelines and a modicum of common sense>>
Both of these statements can be true though. When she was 5, I would have been very comfortable with my now 14yo staying up way late without us. She has always been extremely responsible, understanding of other's needs, etc.. Funny thing is that she is usually in bed no later than 10 because she has a pretty busy life. She is frequently angry that people judge her due to her age based on what they assume ALL 14yos are like, rather than on who she is, what her strengths are.
My now 6yo.....don't know if I will ever be comfortable with his being out of my sight <sigh, grin>. He has very little concept of danger and is not patient enough yet to wait until somebody is able to help him do things. So he ends up in situations that scare the pants off me...even when I am fully awake. So Dan doesn't stay up late without us....sometimes we all stay up together, sometimes he sleeps with me, sometimes I massage his feet, sometimes I read him a story, but I "gentle" him into resting. No yelling, no screaming, no tears, no arbitrary "Bedtime is 8:00".
No arbitrary limits doesn't mean that the kids (or I for that matter) do whatever we want regardless of the consequences. We live in a family and so everyone's needs must be considered. I try to think of it as living in consensus. Trying to find a way everyone can be happy, if not completely satisfied.
In consensus, if a member is not able to agree to the action, you try to find a way to meet the member's concern. If they are still unable to agree, then the action is simply tabled.
If Zach wants to stay up all night and he is safe and not interfering with others, no problem, everyone can agree to that. If Zach wants to stay up but is loud and is interfering with people's sleep, then we try to find a solution. If we are unable to find a solution and Zach is unwilling to tone down the noise, then Zach's staying up all night is tabled until we can find a solution.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: thetaberskifamily <thetaberskifamily@...>
Date: Tuesday, November 1, 2005 8:20 am
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: clarification
> --- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
> <pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
>
> > Of course they do. Do you think WE turn on "Freddy versus Jason"
> and
> > call our little kids in and put them in a chair and say, "Watch
> this?"
> >
> I kind of got the impression from another post that you (not
> necessarily YOU) let them choose...Freddy or not.
> >
> > Do your 5 and 7 year olds want to watch something that you think
> is
> > bad for them? Are they asking to watch something you think you
> need
> > to filter?
>
> They would probably enjoy watching some shows and movies that
> would
> not be appropriate. They choose what they want to watch but it's
> from appropriate channels, shows, videos and dvd's that we have or
> the children/family section at the video store. But if they
> wanted
> to watch Riddick or Blade for instance there would just be too
> content I wouldn't feel comfortable with them seeing at this age.
> sleep).
> >
> > It SEEMS like you think that the kids will want to do some
> pretty
> > stupid things if adults don't set limits - stay up all night,
> watch
> > inappropriate tv, eat junk food? AND this is typically true, so
> I
> > can see how one would believe it. It is true of kids who live in
> a
> > world of limits. But kids who live in a world of opportunities
> and
> > support and help in getting what they want, rather than
> constraints
> > and controls, seem to be able to "choose" intelligently for
> themselves.
>
> I do think they need to choose intelligently for themselves and
> they
> do....I have just read too much about parents still struggling
> with
> very young children staying up till all hours of the to fully be
> able
> to trust that they will (after and adjustment period of course)
> just
> know that they need to go to bed in order for their bodies to get
> enough sleep. I think young kids need some guidance in that area.
>
> Remember, we do not have arbitrary bedtimes and while you can put
> a
> child to bed you cannot make them go to sleep. I know this.
>
> > Better to let them start making all the choices possible when
> they're
> > little, Rebecca, so that you can trust them to make good choices
> when
> > they get older and the choices are serious ones.
>
> Not talking about not letting them make choices...talking about
> balance and guidelines and a modicum of common sense. Maybe
> we're
> close to being on the same page here but we're getting hung up on
> words...
>
> Rebecca
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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[email protected]
>>I guess I was wondering if that was something that wenton in your homes/lives. Children "choosing" to not learn through
their interests/passions.>>
That's not possible! The learning happens. That's at the core of unschooling.
--
~Mary
"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
[email protected]
>>I think thebasic thing that everyone is trying to get across to you is to
question everything you do! So many of our thoughts and actions are
reflex thoughts and actions based on how we were raised and what
society is telling us and we need to question that CONSTANTLY.>>
I would reword this just a little because actually questioning everything you do do can make you nuts! I would call it being mindful of your thoughts and actions. *Think* about why you make the decisions you do.
--
~Mary
"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
Just picked out this bit, Rebecca, because I could use this to make a
point that I think hasn't been made, yet.
point that I think hasn't been made, yet.
On Nov 1, 2005, at 6:20 AM, thetaberskifamily wrote:
> I do think they need to choose intelligently for themselves and they
> do....I have just read too much about parents still struggling with
> very young children staying up till all hours of the to fully be able
> to trust that they will (after and adjustment period of course) just
> know that they need to go to bed in order for their bodies to get
> enough sleep. I think young kids need some guidance in that area.
> Remember, we do not have arbitrary bedtimes and while you can put a
> child to bed you cannot make them go to sleep. I know this.
There are parents who write here who ARE struggling - nearly always
it is those who have had pretty inflexible parent-set bedtimes and
then, often literally overnight <g>, they removed the set bedtimes.
Kids who have BEEN controlled and coerced will take time, sometimes a
lot of time, to get over that. In the meantime, they'll often behave
in ways that are clearly against their own self-interest (going to
bed when sleepy, etc.).
ALSO - the parents haven't built up a big pile of trust credit, yet,
so they don't get to say, "Hey, you're getting sleepy - want to
cuddle with me and fall asleep?" Their kids RESIST that (because, in
the past, their parents made them try to sleep on an arbitrary
schedule) - but those who have been raised in true freedom, have no
resistance, they're HAPPY and content to recognize their own sleepiness.
Lifestyles are different, too. There is one family here who has one
child and very flexible scheduling in their lives and can pretty much
work around any sleep schedule their daughter happens to choose. My
family of three kids is very active and has lots of scheduled
appointments and obligations - my kids keep themselves pretty well
aware of what tomorrow will have in store for them and they adjust
their sleep accordingly (being teens, they do sometimes choose far
LESS sleep than I could handle as a 53 year old). Even when they were
younger, though, they were very aware of the consequences of staying
up too late and not having a good day the next day because of fatigue.
You say in the quote, above, that you think young kids need some
guidance. It SHOCKS me that you'd say that, after all the posts that
have been written here - how can you possibly still think that we're
not giving our kids any "guidance?"
I'm wondering if you're using "guidance" as a euphemism and what you
really mean is that kids need some level of adult "control" in that
area, not just guidance?
That "Pile of Trust Credits" I mentioned earlier comes into play -
when I give my kids "guidance," they have good strong reason to pay
attention to it - they KNOW I'm not going to enforce something
against their will. If I ask, "Are you getting sleepy?" they had no
reason to immediately start claiming they're NOT sleepy - that's what
I've seen in other people's homes, over and over. Mom says, "Are you
getting sleepy?" Kid says, "No, no, no I want to stay up more." Mom
says, "Well, it is getting late, so how about 10 more minutes." Kid
says, "I'm NOT sleepy, REALLY, Mom, pleeeeeease can't I stay up
more?" Mom: "No, it is time for bed. If you don't go now, you'll be
too sleepy tomorrow." And so on.
We don't HAVE those kinds of bedtime conversations. Never have had.
I'd say, "Are you getting sleepy? You have to get up for an early
soccer game tomorrow." Kid: "Well, yeah, I am starting to get sleepy
but I want to finish this game." Me: "Okay, I'll just turn down the
lights a bit and turn the music off so we can start winding down."
Kid will finish game and come cuddle up and go to sleep - or go get a
book and get into bed with some stuffed animals - or sometimes put on
a video and fall asleep watching it - or whatever. The kid is in
control with the support and guidance of mom. KNOWING that mom isn't
going to MAKE her quit her game and go to sleep when she isn't ready,
there is no reason for the child to resist and that makes it FAR
easier for her to go ahead and TAKE the guidance and advice of mom -
mom who has been shown by past experience to have good sense about
when to sleep, by the way <G>.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Nov 1, 2005, at 8:30 AM, zenmomma@... wrote:
to have interests/passions to learn through, but instead spend their
time "just" watching tv or engaged in other low-value activities?"
Rebecca - maybe stop with the hypotheticals, for now? Are either of
your children wanting to watch tv in the way you're "imagining" other
kids might - do nothing but watch tv for 10 hours a day, every day,
not for weeks or months but for years?
I'd ask you a counter question ---- "Do you think that, without
parent-set limits, kids living in rich, stimulating, interesting,
experiential environments with happy, supportive, energetic,
facilitative, aware parents are going to CHOOSE to watch tv for 10
hours per day, every day, for years?"
If the answer is yes, that you actually worry about that, then you
have a very very different understanding of basic human nature than
other unschoolers. Young humans are hardwired to want to learn. The
urge to learn has to be crushed out of them, to get rid of it.
If the answer is no, then stop worrying about it. It isn't going to
happen.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Children "choosing" to not learn throughI'm guessing that the question was: "Do your children ever choose not
> their interests/passions.>>
to have interests/passions to learn through, but instead spend their
time "just" watching tv or engaged in other low-value activities?"
Rebecca - maybe stop with the hypotheticals, for now? Are either of
your children wanting to watch tv in the way you're "imagining" other
kids might - do nothing but watch tv for 10 hours a day, every day,
not for weeks or months but for years?
I'd ask you a counter question ---- "Do you think that, without
parent-set limits, kids living in rich, stimulating, interesting,
experiential environments with happy, supportive, energetic,
facilitative, aware parents are going to CHOOSE to watch tv for 10
hours per day, every day, for years?"
If the answer is yes, that you actually worry about that, then you
have a very very different understanding of basic human nature than
other unschoolers. Young humans are hardwired to want to learn. The
urge to learn has to be crushed out of them, to get rid of it.
If the answer is no, then stop worrying about it. It isn't going to
happen.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
frozenandcold
*I would reword this just a little because actually questioning
everything you do
do can make you nuts! I would call it being mindful of your thoughts
and
actions. *Think* about why you make the decisions you do.*
I like that much better! That is really what it is about, being
mindful!
Heidi
everything you do
do can make you nuts! I would call it being mindful of your thoughts
and
actions. *Think* about why you make the decisions you do.*
I like that much better! That is really what it is about, being
mindful!
Heidi
thetaberskifamily
>you
> I'm wondering if you're using "guidance" as a euphemism and what
> really mean is that kids need some level of adult "control" inthat
> area, not just guidance?I don't think so...an example from yesterday - Libby (5 on Friday)has
>
recently gotten over being sick. We've had some late nights and some
bad nights and I let her know yesterday that she should lay down and
try and take a nap. We were going out trick or treating and then out
to dinner for her birthday with family...it would be another night
for and she has been reeeeaaaallly overly emotional the past few
days. She did initially comlain about laying down but we did talk
about why, read a story, put her music in and then I rubbed her back
for a while and cuddled. She did NOT fall asleep but she rest for
quite a while. We did the same thing on Saturday and she did sleep
for 2 hours and again today and she is asleep. (By the way, she
doesn't typically nap anymore so this is outside of our usual
routine.) To me that is guidance but not control. But if I had asked
her if she was sleepy and felt she needed a rest and let it go at
that she would have said no.
Mom says, "Are you
> getting sleepy?" Kid says, "No, no, no I want to stay up more."Mom
> says, "Well, it is getting late, so how about 10 more minutes."Kid
> says, "I'm NOT sleepy, REALLY, Mom, pleeeeeease can't I stay upbe
> more?" Mom: "No, it is time for bed. If you don't go now, you'll
> too sleepy tomorrow." And so on.That's not how things work in our home either though. We do not have
a set "it's 8:00 - go to bed" bedtime. But I do let them know it's
getting late, what we have planned, how early everyone has to get up
or not get up or did get up that day. And then we just do our
routine and they go to bed. I guess I just don't see that as
controlling. We also don't arbitrarily make them stop something or
leave in the middle of project or show because "it's bed time". I
feel we're pretty flexible and maybe I am picturing what's beyond
what we already do as pure chaos.
Rebecca
thetaberskifamily
> Rebecca - maybe stop with the hypotheticals, for now? Are eitherof
> your children wanting to watch tv in the way you're "imagining"other
> kids might - do nothing but watch tv for 10 hours a day, everyday,
> not for weeks or months but for years?No Pam. I cannot imagine this ever happening in our home. And I
>
> I'd ask you a counter question ---- "Do you think that, without
> parent-set limits, kids living in rich, stimulating, interesting,
> experiential environments with happy, supportive, energetic,
> facilitative, aware parents are going to CHOOSE to watch tv for 10
> hours per day, every day, for years?"
definitely need to stop worrying about what everyone's individual
interpretation of unschooling is...stop worrying/thinking/analyzing
if what we do is unschooling. I need to stop worrying about
hypothetical situations that I cannot even in my wildest imagination
think would possibly happen. I guess there is no point in imagining
how I would react if something happened that I don't ever forsee
happening happened and my reaction to that unimaginable happening was
not one of a true unschooler when I just don't see the imagined
situation happening at all, ever. Whew....lol lol!
You have all helped me though to see some things more clearly. I
really don't feel comfortable saying that we're unschoolers based on
what I have been reading. I don't know that I would want someone to
make an association between some of the more radical unschooling
lifestyle ideas and what we do. I think there is more of an
underlying philosophy to unschooling than I was completely aware of
and that I don't completely agree with. This realization isn't going
to change what we do, how we learn or what I believe in. I just
don't feel comfortable with the correlation. Others may hear that we
don't do school, use any curriculum, follow our children's
interests/gifts and passions, use real life and real books and assume
that unschooling is what we do...but it's that underlying philosophy
and the extreme to which it can go that's just not us. But I would
not have known that if not for your patient listening and answering
of my scads of questions. I'm happy to just continue living and
learning as we have been - respectfully and mindfully so - and not
worry about "what" we are or where we fit. Unschooling is just a
word right? What matters is what we do and how we live!
Thank you all so much!
Rebecca
frozenandcold
Rebecca, if it means anything to you.........when we were at your
stage we called ourselves unschoolers, I still think we were
unschoolers, just not radical unschoolers. As time went on it was
just the natural process to slither into radical unschooling, it
happened without me hardly noticing it, the trust and mindfulness just
extended naturally into all areas of our lives. I can also say that
sometimes reading about radical unschooling doesn't make as much sense
as seeing it in motion. I remember lots of times when my sister, Ren,
would challenge my thinking and it just seemed to me that she let her
kids do whatever they wanted and their household was just chaotic and
their kids hooligans; until I saw it at work and started being more
mindful myself! She has the coolest, most unique kids and it's
chaotic in the most wonderful way, not in a destructive, left to
themselves way!
Heidi
stage we called ourselves unschoolers, I still think we were
unschoolers, just not radical unschoolers. As time went on it was
just the natural process to slither into radical unschooling, it
happened without me hardly noticing it, the trust and mindfulness just
extended naturally into all areas of our lives. I can also say that
sometimes reading about radical unschooling doesn't make as much sense
as seeing it in motion. I remember lots of times when my sister, Ren,
would challenge my thinking and it just seemed to me that she let her
kids do whatever they wanted and their household was just chaotic and
their kids hooligans; until I saw it at work and started being more
mindful myself! She has the coolest, most unique kids and it's
chaotic in the most wonderful way, not in a destructive, left to
themselves way!
Heidi
frozenandcold
I think some people want all personal exploration without borrowing
from
already-been-there experiences, and that can be slow and frustrating.
*I think some people want all borrowings with no personal
exploration, and
that won't work. That's like reading about the bike riding without
getting the
bike, or reading fifty cookbooks but never turning on the stove, or
collecting
sewing patterns but not ever buying any cloth. You don't sew or cook
from
reading. You don't unschool or come to trust natural learning from
reading.
Unschooling starts to make sense when people are unschooling. It
takes some
reading and some doing, more reading, more doing...
Sandra*
I "borrowed" this from unschoolingdiscussion list because I thought
it would be helpful for Rebecca, hit it on the nailhead!
Heidi
from
already-been-there experiences, and that can be slow and frustrating.
*I think some people want all borrowings with no personal
exploration, and
that won't work. That's like reading about the bike riding without
getting the
bike, or reading fifty cookbooks but never turning on the stove, or
collecting
sewing patterns but not ever buying any cloth. You don't sew or cook
from
reading. You don't unschool or come to trust natural learning from
reading.
Unschooling starts to make sense when people are unschooling. It
takes some
reading and some doing, more reading, more doing...
Sandra*
I "borrowed" this from unschoolingdiscussion list because I thought
it would be helpful for Rebecca, hit it on the nailhead!
Heidi
Brandie
--- frozenandcold <fivefreebirds@...> wrote:
force any learning on my children, I considered us
unschoolers. I still think we were unschoolers, but
we were not radical unschoolers. As a matter of fact,
when I read posts from the more radical unschoolers, I
thought they were crazy -- "there's no way I will be
that way" -- I would think.
But here we are...we unschooled just learning at first
and then it slowly started spilling over into other
areas of our life. It's been a great journey!
Brandie
http://tableforfive.blogspot.com
http://homemadeliving.blogspot.com
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
> Rebecca, if it means anything to you.........This is exactly what I was thinking! When I didn't
> when we were at your stage we called ourselves
> unschoolers, I still think we were unschoolers,
> just not radical unschoolers.
force any learning on my children, I considered us
unschoolers. I still think we were unschoolers, but
we were not radical unschoolers. As a matter of fact,
when I read posts from the more radical unschoolers, I
thought they were crazy -- "there's no way I will be
that way" -- I would think.
But here we are...we unschooled just learning at first
and then it slowly started spilling over into other
areas of our life. It's been a great journey!
Brandie
http://tableforfive.blogspot.com
http://homemadeliving.blogspot.com
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
Pamela Sorooshian
On Nov 1, 2005, at 1:11 PM, thetaberskifamily wrote:
you keep saying that is how it is in your house, too.
I think you're picturing something happening in our homes that is not
happening. Some sort of Lord of the Flies situation? No adults in the
picture?
- suppose they've got reasons and they decide they'd just like to
risk being overly sleepy the next day in order to do, tonight, what
they want to do? Will you just say no? Do you make it clear that you
are in charge of when they go to bed? That's why they never question it?
no choice. If you have really compliant kids and so they just go
along with the program, then maybe all you have to do is start your
bedtime routine when YOU think it is time, and they just go along. If
you're watching for cues from them and getting bedtime going when you
think they're ready for it, then that's exactly what I described. If
YOU are deciding it is time just because it seems like bedtime to
you, not based on the reality of the kids, then that is you being
controlling, not being supportive and providing guidance.
sounds like what I described, unless you're announcing, "It is now
bedtime." I wouldn't do that - I'd be helping the kids recognize when
they're ready to sleep and I'd be engaging in the little routines
that we do before bed and I'd be lowering lights and turning down the
sound level, and maybe offering warm milk or a back rub or to read
stories or put on a video or whatever seemed like it might be
conducive to helping the kids settle down. Sometimes I might just
say, "You guys ready for bed pretty soon?" What I wouldn't do is say,
"Time for you to go to bed now." THAT takes the control away from the
child and into the hands of the parent and I'd rather not do that,
for reasons that have been discussed here already.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> That's not how things work in our home either though.You keep responding as if you're arguing against something - but then
you keep saying that is how it is in your house, too.
I think you're picturing something happening in our homes that is not
happening. Some sort of Lord of the Flies situation? No adults in the
picture?
> We do not haveSuppose they understand all that and they would like to stay up later
> a set "it's 8:00 - go to bed" bedtime. But I do let them know it's
> getting late, what we have planned, how early everyone has to get up
> or not get up or did get up that day.
- suppose they've got reasons and they decide they'd just like to
risk being overly sleepy the next day in order to do, tonight, what
they want to do? Will you just say no? Do you make it clear that you
are in charge of when they go to bed? That's why they never question it?
> And then we just do ourIt is controlling if they are doing it because they think they have
> routine and they go to bed. I guess I just don't see that as
> controlling.
no choice. If you have really compliant kids and so they just go
along with the program, then maybe all you have to do is start your
bedtime routine when YOU think it is time, and they just go along. If
you're watching for cues from them and getting bedtime going when you
think they're ready for it, then that's exactly what I described. If
YOU are deciding it is time just because it seems like bedtime to
you, not based on the reality of the kids, then that is you being
controlling, not being supportive and providing guidance.
> We also don't arbitrarily make them stop something orI can't figure out what you're picturing. What you're describing
> leave in the middle of project or show because "it's bed time". I
> feel we're pretty flexible and maybe I am picturing what's beyond
> what we already do as pure chaos.
sounds like what I described, unless you're announcing, "It is now
bedtime." I wouldn't do that - I'd be helping the kids recognize when
they're ready to sleep and I'd be engaging in the little routines
that we do before bed and I'd be lowering lights and turning down the
sound level, and maybe offering warm milk or a back rub or to read
stories or put on a video or whatever seemed like it might be
conducive to helping the kids settle down. Sometimes I might just
say, "You guys ready for bed pretty soon?" What I wouldn't do is say,
"Time for you to go to bed now." THAT takes the control away from the
child and into the hands of the parent and I'd rather not do that,
for reasons that have been discussed here already.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
"Even as adults we have to do things we don't always feel like
doing at the time (laundry, making dinner, going to work, etc)."
I disagree.
These are ALL choices. Sometimes we make a choice to do something we
don't care for a whole lot, because the consequence is worse than our
distaste for the activity, but it's ALL a choice.
In my talk at the conference, I talked about these choices. There are
loads of options before we decide to do an activity...you can hire
someone, you can ignore the activity, you can ask for volunteers etc...
But once YOU decide an activity is worth doing, then you are down to
just TWO choices;
to do the activity poorly (with a bad attitude, with grumbling or an
unthankful heart) OR to do it well (with joy or at least with gratitude).
I don't always remember this, but I try.
I think every single moment, of every single day, we can realize how
extremely fortunate we are to have the "work" we have. The dishes I do
are symbols of healthy people that I love, able to eat food and share
time together. The laundry I do is a symbol of happy, exploring
children, getting messy as they learn. The bills I pay are signs that
I have money, a house, nice clothing, a vehicle that takes us to
pursue friendships, adventures and exploration of the world.
I could go on and on.
If we see our lives as choices, it frees us up to make better choices,
rather than feeling "stuck" or like we "have to" do certain activities.
ALL of my life is a choice. I DO choose some distasteful things
because I don't like the consequences...but it's still a choice.
Ren
doing at the time (laundry, making dinner, going to work, etc)."
I disagree.
These are ALL choices. Sometimes we make a choice to do something we
don't care for a whole lot, because the consequence is worse than our
distaste for the activity, but it's ALL a choice.
In my talk at the conference, I talked about these choices. There are
loads of options before we decide to do an activity...you can hire
someone, you can ignore the activity, you can ask for volunteers etc...
But once YOU decide an activity is worth doing, then you are down to
just TWO choices;
to do the activity poorly (with a bad attitude, with grumbling or an
unthankful heart) OR to do it well (with joy or at least with gratitude).
I don't always remember this, but I try.
I think every single moment, of every single day, we can realize how
extremely fortunate we are to have the "work" we have. The dishes I do
are symbols of healthy people that I love, able to eat food and share
time together. The laundry I do is a symbol of happy, exploring
children, getting messy as they learn. The bills I pay are signs that
I have money, a house, nice clothing, a vehicle that takes us to
pursue friendships, adventures and exploration of the world.
I could go on and on.
If we see our lives as choices, it frees us up to make better choices,
rather than feeling "stuck" or like we "have to" do certain activities.
ALL of my life is a choice. I DO choose some distasteful things
because I don't like the consequences...but it's still a choice.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/1/2005 7:30:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Others may hear that we
don't do school, use any curriculum, follow our children's
interests/gifts and passions, use real life and real books and assume
that unschooling is what we do...but it's that underlying philosophy
and the extreme to which it can go that's just not us. But I would
not have known that if not for your patient listening and answering
of my scads of questions. I'm happy to just continue living and
learning as we have been - respectfully and mindfully so - and not
worry about "what" we are or where we fit. Unschooling is just a
word right? What matters is what we do and how we live!
Thank you all so much!
Rebecca
**********************************************
Rebecca, I've been reading your posts and watching your struggle, and my
suggestion, for now, is not to worry about it. You'll find that lots of people
go through this process. My experience is that most people who embrace the
learning parts of unschooling eventually find that it moves into other parts of
their and their children's lives. You seem to get the learning part pretty
well, and my guess is that you WILL end up embracing other parts. Or maybe not.
We grow up being told that education is the job of professionals, and that
good parents are lovingly strict with their children. So, we're here saying
that not only can kids learn at home, but that we don't even have at sit down at
the kitchen table and teach them and test them. THEN we go on to say that we
can let kids make decisions about bedtime and chores and other
stuff....argh! How scary is that!?
Keep hanging out here, keep reading, maybe come to a conference and meet
some of these weird people in person. See what happens.
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
Others may hear that we
don't do school, use any curriculum, follow our children's
interests/gifts and passions, use real life and real books and assume
that unschooling is what we do...but it's that underlying philosophy
and the extreme to which it can go that's just not us. But I would
not have known that if not for your patient listening and answering
of my scads of questions. I'm happy to just continue living and
learning as we have been - respectfully and mindfully so - and not
worry about "what" we are or where we fit. Unschooling is just a
word right? What matters is what we do and how we live!
Thank you all so much!
Rebecca
**********************************************
Rebecca, I've been reading your posts and watching your struggle, and my
suggestion, for now, is not to worry about it. You'll find that lots of people
go through this process. My experience is that most people who embrace the
learning parts of unschooling eventually find that it moves into other parts of
their and their children's lives. You seem to get the learning part pretty
well, and my guess is that you WILL end up embracing other parts. Or maybe not.
We grow up being told that education is the job of professionals, and that
good parents are lovingly strict with their children. So, we're here saying
that not only can kids learn at home, but that we don't even have at sit down at
the kitchen table and teach them and test them. THEN we go on to say that we
can let kids make decisions about bedtime and chores and other
stuff....argh! How scary is that!?
Keep hanging out here, keep reading, maybe come to a conference and meet
some of these weird people in person. See what happens.
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: jnjstau@...
As far as graphic violence and sexual content, I have yet to see a young kid
that actively seeks that out unless for some reason they see it as "forbidden
fruit" or something that "big kids do."
-=-=-=-=-
I was watching _Alexander_ the other night. Duncan (9) came down and snuggled with me as I watched. I
probably would have turned it off any other night, but I really wanted to watch it and I've been stressed
a bit lately and didn't want to change my plans. He asked what it was about, and I explained who Alexander
was and what he accomplished. I told him it would be bloody, for SURE, and maybe he wouldn't want to
watch (he has his own tv in his room). He stayed.
There were some very gory battle scenes and two rape scenes. He looked down or hid his head in my lap
if it got too ugly for him, and he wondered aloud why I would *want* to watch that! <G> I fast-forwarded a
few things! <g>
Yes, I probably *could* have put my viewing off, but he was fine and didn't watch anything *he* found
disturbing.
Young children---even very young children---don't WANT to watch sex and violence (and this is a kid who
LOVES gory video games!). They will chose cartoons and animal planet and discovery channel over Freddie
Krueger (and _Alexander_ <g>) any day!
My older son, of course went to see _Saw 2_ (ugh!) on Halloween. He said it was actually *very* good and
was trying to convince me that the message was a very positive one! <bwg> But he was never made to watch
anything he wasn't comfortable with nor was he prevented from watching he thought he as ready for.
But _SAW_???? <g>
~Kelly
Kelly LovejoyConference CoordinatorLive and Learn Unschooling Conferencehttp://liveandlearnconference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: jnjstau@...
As far as graphic violence and sexual content, I have yet to see a young kid
that actively seeks that out unless for some reason they see it as "forbidden
fruit" or something that "big kids do."
-=-=-=-=-
I was watching _Alexander_ the other night. Duncan (9) came down and snuggled with me as I watched. I
probably would have turned it off any other night, but I really wanted to watch it and I've been stressed
a bit lately and didn't want to change my plans. He asked what it was about, and I explained who Alexander
was and what he accomplished. I told him it would be bloody, for SURE, and maybe he wouldn't want to
watch (he has his own tv in his room). He stayed.
There were some very gory battle scenes and two rape scenes. He looked down or hid his head in my lap
if it got too ugly for him, and he wondered aloud why I would *want* to watch that! <G> I fast-forwarded a
few things! <g>
Yes, I probably *could* have put my viewing off, but he was fine and didn't watch anything *he* found
disturbing.
Young children---even very young children---don't WANT to watch sex and violence (and this is a kid who
LOVES gory video games!). They will chose cartoons and animal planet and discovery channel over Freddie
Krueger (and _Alexander_ <g>) any day!
My older son, of course went to see _Saw 2_ (ugh!) on Halloween. He said it was actually *very* good and
was trying to convince me that the message was a very positive one! <bwg> But he was never made to watch
anything he wasn't comfortable with nor was he prevented from watching he thought he as ready for.
But _SAW_???? <g>
~Kelly
Kelly LovejoyConference CoordinatorLive and Learn Unschooling Conferencehttp://liveandlearnconference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
----Original Message-----
From: thetaberskifamily thetaberskifamily@...
Not if that were the only thing they were interested in....I wouldn't
find it natural for an extended period (not just days or weeks) of time
for a child not be interested in participating in the world, exploring,
working, playing, reading, etc.
-=-=-=-=-
Odd. Duncan has done ALL of those things *while* watching tv. <g>
~Kelly
Kelly LovejoyConference CoordinatorLive and Learn Unschooling Conferencehttp://liveandlearnconference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: thetaberskifamily thetaberskifamily@...
Not if that were the only thing they were interested in....I wouldn't
find it natural for an extended period (not just days or weeks) of time
for a child not be interested in participating in the world, exploring,
working, playing, reading, etc.
-=-=-=-=-
Odd. Duncan has done ALL of those things *while* watching tv. <g>
~Kelly
Kelly LovejoyConference CoordinatorLive and Learn Unschooling Conferencehttp://liveandlearnconference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Donald and Sandra Winn
> But _SAW_???? <g>I can't believe that "Saw 2" beat out "Zorro"! Our
> ~Kelly
> Kelly LovejoyConference CoordinatorLive and Learn
> Unschooling
> Conferencehttp://liveandlearnconference.org
whole family absolutely loved the "Mask of Zorro" and
we really want to see the sequel. However, it will
have to wait until DVD because they'd rather see
"Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" :-)
Hubby convinced me to watch the first SAW...yuk.
LOL... I like scary movies, some that I would never
watch again in my life but I'm not a big gore fan. ;-)
Happy Learning,
~Sandy
www.360.yahoo.com/aplan4life
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: frozenandcold fivefreebirds@...
I have NEVER in my life used algebra so all the years that I
was forced to do algebra was wasted time that I could have used for
much more interesting things that would have been more meaningful for
MY life.
-=-=-=-=-=-
No, Heidi, NOOOOO!!!!
What you're NOT getting is that YOU have used algebra and you DOOO use algebra! Probably EVERY DAY!!!
School sucks!
When you are driving and decide when to use your brakes to avoid hitting the car in front, you are using algebra! You are considering the variables (condition of the road, the brakes, distance between cars, concentration level, laws) every time you step on that brake to avoid hitting a car!
When you are running errands and need to figure out how soon you need to leave the house in order to get it all done, THAT's algebra! If you spend too much time at the library, you may need to alter your plans a bit and go to the post office tomorrow in order to meet your sister for supper by 7:00 (considering if you want to be on time).
In cooking, if you change the ingredients, you may need to change the cooking time.
Painting---mixing colors is all about varying the amount you use to get the end result you're looking for.
Handicapping races or golf: Algebra!
Algebra (if I'm not mistaken, Pam---please clarify!) is the use of variables. Those of us who multi-task are really GOOD at algebra!
We DO use it every day! We just don't necessarily need to know the formulae in order to do the work!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: frozenandcold fivefreebirds@...
I have NEVER in my life used algebra so all the years that I
was forced to do algebra was wasted time that I could have used for
much more interesting things that would have been more meaningful for
MY life.
-=-=-=-=-=-
No, Heidi, NOOOOO!!!!
What you're NOT getting is that YOU have used algebra and you DOOO use algebra! Probably EVERY DAY!!!
School sucks!
When you are driving and decide when to use your brakes to avoid hitting the car in front, you are using algebra! You are considering the variables (condition of the road, the brakes, distance between cars, concentration level, laws) every time you step on that brake to avoid hitting a car!
When you are running errands and need to figure out how soon you need to leave the house in order to get it all done, THAT's algebra! If you spend too much time at the library, you may need to alter your plans a bit and go to the post office tomorrow in order to meet your sister for supper by 7:00 (considering if you want to be on time).
In cooking, if you change the ingredients, you may need to change the cooking time.
Painting---mixing colors is all about varying the amount you use to get the end result you're looking for.
Handicapping races or golf: Algebra!
Algebra (if I'm not mistaken, Pam---please clarify!) is the use of variables. Those of us who multi-task are really GOOD at algebra!
We DO use it every day! We just don't necessarily need to know the formulae in order to do the work!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]