thetaberskifamily

Someone asked at some point if I have figured out if we're
unschoolers or not. I would say yes. I just don't agree that in
every little thing we have ask our children what they want to do, if
they're okay with us going or doing this or that. They lead the way
with their learning but I truly feel that the rest is about a
difference in parenting styles. I do agree with not making arbitrary
rules and guidelines and considering your children's needs and
desires and not being controlling or "having" to do something just
because, no matter what. But there are times where things do have to
be done and that is what being in a family is all about...going
places and working and doing things together as a family. I guess I
would definitely not call ourselves as radical unschoolers but
unschoolers we are. You don't have to have young children setting
bedtimes of midnight and beyond or change all plans because they're
refusing to go to the grocery store to be an unschooler.

If I have misuderstood something somewhere and am incorrect I am
pretty sure someone will let me know (lol) but could we clarify where
things are a matter of unschooling or not unschooling and just the
way families and children are different in what they do?!

Rebecca

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: thetaberskifamily thetaberskifamily@...

If I have misuderstood something somewhere and am incorrect I am
pretty sure someone will let me know (lol) but could we clarify where
things are a matter of unschooling or not unschooling and just the
way families and children are different in what they do?!

-=-=-=-

Well, this is the description of this list:

"A list designed for those new to the philosophy of unschooling. Ask experienced unschoolers all those niggling questions, and find out how unschooling works in real families.

"If you're familiar with John Holt's work but unsure of how to begin or what an unschooling day really looks like, this is a place for you to discuss, question, ponder, and become deeply familiar with natural learning and how it affects our entire lives. From parenting issues to learning from the whole wide world and beyond, come explore the issues that unschooling families have dealt with in the past and how to get beyond "school-think" to a joyful unschooling lifestyle!"

We really DO consider parenting a large part of the unschooling lifestyle.

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Aubrey Lane

I'm a little late on this one because we are preparing for my 9 year olds
surgery tomorrow.

---But there are times where things do have to
be done and that is what being in a family is all about...going
places and working and doing things together as a family.

Rebecca, I see where you are coming from totally. We live in families and
sometimes we have to make decisions as parents. You can't please everyone
all the time. Even as adults we have to do things we don't always feel like
doing at the time (laundry, making dinner, going to work, etc). I think it's
always important to consider everyone's feelings and needs and to talk with
our children about everything, but someone needs to lead. An example: I am
owner of a homeschool group with a co-op. Not everyone always loves the
decisions I have to make and I wish I could accommodate everyone all the
time but I can't. Someone has to make a decision.

I don't think you are talking about arbitrary rules at all. We don't make
arbitrary rules in our house either. We have carefully thought out
guidelines for the good of the family. The children have participated in
deciding a lot of these things so it's usually not an issue.

I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that people are assuming that just
because parents might have guidelines or are willing to make decisions that
our children do not like that we don't have a loving, caring, respectful,
beautiful relationship with our children. That our home is somewhat of a war
zone of sorts. This just isn't true. Granted it's rare, but sometimes I do
say, "I'm sorry that you don't agree but I feel ...." I do talk to my
children, as I'm sure you do, and I will look for a way to accommodate their
wants but sometimes we all have to do things we don't want to do. Example: a
couple of weeks ago my daughter was sick and I needed to go to the store to
get her some cough medicine. My husband works nights so I can't wait until
he comes home. My son didn't want to come with me. He wanted to continue to
play his video game. I told him I would wait 15 minutes so he could finish.
Half an hour later he was arguing with me about going to the store. I talked
to him about how awful his sister felt and how I thought that if he felt
this way he would surely want me to get him some medicine. He kept arguing,
asking if it could wait till morning. I finally said, "No, we have to go.
Please get in the car." That's what I mean about making choices for the
family. Sometimes it's just not possible to accommodate everyone.

I am finding that the more I talk to my children and ask how they feel or
what they would like to do, instead of telling them, that I find them making
better choices for themselves and the family in general. I am learning to
give them control over their lives and they are growing in so many ways.
When they learn something for experience they remember it and the experience
becomes a part of them and helps them make future decisions, rather than if
I had made the decision for them. Children learn from experience, just like
adults do. I try not to protect them from every consequence that is not a
life and death situation.

Aubrey



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Nov 1, 2005, at 3:17 PM, Aubrey Lane wrote:

> I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that people are assuming that
> just
> because parents might have guidelines or are willing to make
> decisions that
> our children do not like that we don't have a loving, caring,
> respectful,
> beautiful relationship with our children.


I assume you are wrong in that assumption about other peoples'
assumptions <BEG>.

This discussion is really not at all about whether or not people can
have loving, caring, respectful, beautiful relationships with their
children in spite of parent-imposed rules/bedtimes/food controls, etc.

I completely believe that Rebecca is having a great time and a great
relationship with her children.

I think unschooling is simply not doing school - not having lesson
plans, "teaching times," curriculum, assignments, tests, and grades.
I believe the rest of what we're talking about is something amazing
that people have learned mostly because they've unschooled. When
they've trusted their kids to learn to read when and how they're
ready, when they've trusted their kids to learn without coercion, it
is a very logical extension to think that kids can also learn non-
academic things in a more natural, less coercive, way, too.

So that's what has happened and that's what we're talking about.

If you're not "doing school" and you ARE supporting your children's
interests and you're creating a rich and inviting and stimulating
environment, then you're unschooling. You can call it that or not -
doesn't matter.

I think of the rest - all the stuff about trusting kids in regard to
learning about other aspects of life - as "advanced unschooling." It
is like grad school (woops, a school analogy to explain unschooling -
that's weird). <G>.

-pam






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

averyschmidt

> Even as adults we have to do things we don't always feel like
> doing at the time (laundry, making dinner, going to work, etc).

As adults we don't really "have" to do anything though. We *decide*
to do things of our own free will. For example, I do the laundry
because I want us all to have clean clothes, not because I "have"
to. I can't think of anything that, as free adult, I "have" to do
that I can't easily turn into "I *choose* to (fill in the blank)
because (fill in the blank)." It might seem like petty semantics at
first, but it's not. Our thoughts and perspective affect our whole
outlook on life.

> I do talk to my
> children, as I'm sure you do, and I will look for a way to
accommodate their
> wants but sometimes we all have to do things we don't want to do.
Example: a
> couple of weeks ago my daughter was sick and I needed to go to the
store to
> get her some cough medicine. My husband works nights so I can't
wait until
> he comes home. My son didn't want to come with me. He wanted to
continue to
> play his video game. I told him I would wait 15 minutes so he
could finish.
> Half an hour later he was arguing with me about going to the
store. I talked
> to him about how awful his sister felt and how I thought that if
he felt
> this way he would surely want me to get him some medicine. He kept
arguing,
> asking if it could wait till morning. I finally said, "No, we have
to go.
> Please get in the car." That's what I mean about making choices
for the
> family. Sometimes it's just not possible to accommodate everyone.

In this sort of situation I usually manage to find a way for a child
too young to stay home alone to *want* to come on a brief outing.
Lately the offer of a stop at Dunkin Donuts is what works here.
A lot of the anxiety we modern moms experience trying to please
everyone (kids of various ages) is the result of living in nuclear
families. Wouldn't it be nice to always have other older children
and adults around so that kids didn't ever need to go on errands if
they didn't want to? My life has gotten SO much easier since my
older two became mature enough to stay home alone. There is a light
at the end of that tunnel. :-)

> I am learning to
> give them control over their lives and they are growing in so many
ways.
> When they learn something for experience they remember it and the
experience
> becomes a part of them and helps them make future decisions,
rather than if
> I had made the decision for them.

Yes.

> Children learn from experience, just like
> adults do. I try not to protect them from every consequence that
is not a
> life and death situation.

Could you elaborate on what you mean here?

Patti

Aubrey Lane

> Children learn from experience, just like
> adults do. I try not to protect them from every consequence that
is not a
> life and death situation.

---Could you elaborate on what you mean here?



Sure. Last night my kids wanted to eat some of their Halloween candy. Well,
some turned into quite a bit. I said, "Careful with that stuff guys. You
might get a tummy ache." I did not say "Ok guys, that's enough. Put the
candy away" like I would have a few months ago. They continued to eat and
eat. (We do have candy in our house and they are free to have it whenever
they want but they don't eat much by choice)Anyway, they both ended up with
tummy aches and my son had diarrhea as well as not being able to sleep. I
nursed them through their tummy aches and never said "I told you so." This
morning they both told me that they never wanted candy again. Of course they
will, but I think the EXPERIENCE has taught them something about moderation.


This has been a real tough one for me. As a mom I want to protect them but I
have realized that this is not always what's best for them.

Aubrey

_____

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of averyschmidt
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 7:12 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Unschooling??Rebecca



> Even as adults we have to do things we don't always feel like
> doing at the time (laundry, making dinner, going to work, etc).

As adults we don't really "have" to do anything though. We *decide*
to do things of our own free will. For example, I do the laundry
because I want us all to have clean clothes, not because I "have"
to. I can't think of anything that, as free adult, I "have" to do
that I can't easily turn into "I *choose* to (fill in the blank)
because (fill in the blank)." It might seem like petty semantics at
first, but it's not. Our thoughts and perspective affect our whole
outlook on life.

> I do talk to my
> children, as I'm sure you do, and I will look for a way to
accommodate their
> wants but sometimes we all have to do things we don't want to do.
Example: a
> couple of weeks ago my daughter was sick and I needed to go to the
store to
> get her some cough medicine. My husband works nights so I can't
wait until
> he comes home. My son didn't want to come with me. He wanted to
continue to
> play his video game. I told him I would wait 15 minutes so he
could finish.
> Half an hour later he was arguing with me about going to the
store. I talked
> to him about how awful his sister felt and how I thought that if
he felt
> this way he would surely want me to get him some medicine. He kept
arguing,
> asking if it could wait till morning. I finally said, "No, we have
to go.
> Please get in the car." That's what I mean about making choices
for the
> family. Sometimes it's just not possible to accommodate everyone.

In this sort of situation I usually manage to find a way for a child
too young to stay home alone to *want* to come on a brief outing.
Lately the offer of a stop at Dunkin Donuts is what works here.
A lot of the anxiety we modern moms experience trying to please
everyone (kids of various ages) is the result of living in nuclear
families. Wouldn't it be nice to always have other older children
and adults around so that kids didn't ever need to go on errands if
they didn't want to? My life has gotten SO much easier since my
older two became mature enough to stay home alone. There is a light
at the end of that tunnel. :-)

> I am learning to
> give them control over their lives and they are growing in so many
ways.
> When they learn something for experience they remember it and the
experience
> becomes a part of them and helps them make future decisions,
rather than if
> I had made the decision for them.

Yes.



Patti








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Aubrey Lane a-lane@...

Sure. Last night my kids wanted to eat some of their Halloween candy. Well,
some turned into quite a bit. I said, "Careful with that stuff guys. You
might get a tummy ache." I did not say "Ok guys, that's enough. Put the
candy away" like I would have a few months ago. They continued to eat and
eat. (We do have candy in our house and they are free to have it whenever
they want but they don't eat much by choice)Anyway, they both ended up with
tummy aches and my son had diarrhea as well as not being able to sleep. I
nursed them through their tummy aches and never said "I told you so." This
morning they both told me that they never wanted candy again. Of course they
will, but I think the EXPERIENCE has taught them something about moderation.
-=-=-=-=-

OK. I think the big difference here is that I would have set out a platter of carrots and dip, sliced apples and caramel sauce, steamed edamame, some nuts, and some sliced meats and cheeses *along* with that big bowl of candy. My children would have eaten a bit of everything (and ALL the edamame would be gone!) and wouldn't have gotten tummyaches because they would have had choices *other* than just Milky Ways or Milk Duds.

They *get* to make wise choices and aren't forced to eat as much candy as they can to be filled up. They have *something* to moderate.

At our Halloween party last Sunday, there was enough candy to choke a horse, but I also offered teriyaki bat wings, deviled ham tombstone sandwiches, carrots and dill dip, celery and bleu cheese dip, Devil's food cupcakes, and popcorn---with spider cider. Everything was eaten equally---because it was all good! <g>

-=-=-=-

This has been a real tough one for me. As a mom I want to protect them but I
have realized that this is not always what's best for them.

-=-=-=-=-

It shouldn't be so tough. And your JOB is to protect them.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

averyschmidt

> Anyway, they both ended up with
> tummy aches and my son had diarrhea as well as not being able to
sleep.

That must have been a LOT of candy consumption, to the exclusion of
anything else, for them to have had such reactions. I can't imagine
why a child would want to eat that much unless a.) it was a newfound
freedom (I know you said you keep candy in the house, but perhaps
it's a different kind from what was in their Halloween stash?) or
b.) there weren't other more nourishing choices available right in
front of them that they love just as much as candy.

> This has been a real tough one for me. As a mom I want to protect
them but I
> have realized that this is not always what's best for them.

I think protection is always best for my children- it doesn't have
to be in the form of control. For example, my kids rarely want to
bring jackets places- they don't get cold easily and don't like to
carry them. My husband tends to have a "you made your bed, now
you'll have to lay there" mindset and thinks they should then just
be cold while we congratulate ourselves over the "lesson" they
learned the hard way. I prefer to just bring their jackets along
myself in case they want them.

Patti

Deb

--- In [email protected], "averyschmidt"
<patti.schmidt2@v...> wrote:
>
> I think protection is always best for my children- it doesn't have
> to be in the form of control. For example, my kids rarely want to
> bring jackets places- they don't get cold easily and don't like to
> carry them. My husband tends to have a "you made your bed, now
> you'll have to lay there" mindset and thinks they should then just
> be cold while we congratulate ourselves over the "lesson" they
> learned the hard way. I prefer to just bring their jackets along
> myself in case they want them.
>
> Patti
>
Like Halloween night. As we were getting ready to go, DS said his
right sock was bothering him, so he took it off. I could have tried
to make him wear it. I could have then told him he "had to" take off
the other one also. Instead, I tucked his other sock in the bottom
of the spare treat bag (his costume had a treat bucket that was kind
of small so we brought along a spare bag - the L&L conference tote
as a matter of fact - to handle overflow) and he trick or treated
one sock on one sock off quite happily. The other sock was there
should he decide he needed it.

--Deb

[email protected]

<<I can't imagine why a child would want to eat that much unless a) it was a newfound freedom....b)there weren't other more nourishing choices available>>

I can understand that you might not be able to imagine it but kids who will eat sugar to almost the exclusion of anything else do exist. I live with one. For several years, he ate almost nothing besides sugar-filled, highly processed food. He went into malnutrition while I kept talking to him about nutrition and offering options. I kept hearing things like the above and thinking I am just somehow doing it wrong. I finally wised up and realized that Zach has a problem and I needed to deal with it even if it went against the "party line". I believe in radical unschooling, it works quite well for most of my kids but Zach is 12 now and I still haven't figured out a way to make unschooling and sugar go hand in hand for him.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: averyschmidt <patti.schmidt2@...>
Date: Friday, November 4, 2005 8:17 am
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Unschooling??Rebecca

> > Anyway, they both ended up with
> > tummy aches and my son had diarrhea as well as not being able to
> sleep.
>
> That must have been a LOT of candy consumption, to the exclusion
> of
> anything else, for them to have had such reactions. I can't
> imagine
> why a child would want to eat that much unless a.) it was a
> newfound
> freedom (I know you said you keep candy in the house, but perhaps
> it's a different kind from what was in their Halloween stash?) or
> b.) there weren't other more nourishing choices available right in
> front of them that they love just as much as candy.
>
> > This has been a real tough one for me. As a mom I want to
> protect
> them but I
> > have realized that this is not always what's best for them.
>
> I think protection is always best for my children- it doesn't have
> to be in the form of control. For example, my kids rarely want to
> bring jackets places- they don't get cold easily and don't like to
> carry them. My husband tends to have a "you made your bed, now
> you'll have to lay there" mindset and thinks they should then just
> be cold while we congratulate ourselves over the "lesson" they
> learned the hard way. I prefer to just bring their jackets along
> myself in case they want them.
>
> Patti
>
>
>
>
>
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averyschmidt

> I can understand that you might not be able to imagine it but kids
who will eat sugar to almost the exclusion of anything else do
exist. I live with one. For several years, he ate almost nothing
besides sugar-filled, highly processed food. He went into
malnutrition while I kept talking to him about nutrition and
offering options.

I think the phrase "eat sugar to almost the exclusion of anything
else" is misleading. It sounds from the rest of the paragraph like
he craved very specific things with a high sugar content,
not "sugar" by itself. I'm drinking a fruit smoothie as I type
this, and it probably has as much sugar in it as a packaged,
processed pastry. When I was a child my father called me a "sugar
addict" because I loved ice cream and candy bars. But I detested
soda, which is higher in sugar than either of those, and it used to
disgust me that my sister could eat straight sugar (chew a sugar
cube for example). So was I really a "sugar addict"? Is a
breastfed baby a sugar addict? (Human milk is very sugary- I think
we're hardwired for sweetness).

Most sugary foods have lots of other ingredients. I find that when
I do eat ice cream or chocolate (which I still love as an adult) I
feel better afterwards- less sluggish- if there is some nuts or
protein in there. For example, peanut m&ms rather than plain m&ms,
or butter pecan ice cream rather than cookie dough. The protein
seems, for me, to minimize or eliminate the rush/crash cycle that I
tend to get from pure starch. I also prefer, when I have the time,
to make things like cookies from scratch- preferably with organic
ingredients and protein in there somewhere.

Patti

Deb

--- In [email protected], "averyschmidt"
<patti.schmidt2@v...> wrote:
>
> I also prefer, when I have the time,
> to make things like cookies from scratch- preferably with organic
> ingredients and protein in there somewhere.
>
> Patti
>
Try these Patti, they're 'cookies' but end up more like tiny muffins
almost. Fruit, yogurt, protein, whole grains all in a handy,
portable package.

PB Cookies
3/4C yogurt or yogurt cheese (drained or undrained is okay,
undrained might need a dash more flour in the end)
1/2C peanut butter
3/4C mashed banana
1 tsp baking powder
1/2 tsp baking soda
2 eggs
1 tsp vanilla
1 1/4C whole wheat flour
2C rolled oats (basic Quaker oatmeal)

raisins, peanuts, chocolate chips (whichever you want to use --
we've used all or none or an assortment whatever was on hand)

Mix everything in a big bowl, stirring well after each addition.
Drop by rounded teaspoonfuls onto an ungreased baking sheet. Bake at
375 for about 10 minutes or until edges are lightly browned and the
top pops back when lightly pressed. Makes about 5 dozen cookies

--Deb

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/4/2005 8:26:06 AM Central Standard Time,
debra.rossing@... writes:

> Like Halloween night. As we were getting ready to go, DS said his
> right sock was bothering him, so he took it off. I could have tried
> to make him wear it. I could have then told him he "had to" take off
> the other one also. Instead, I tucked his other sock in the bottom
> of the spare treat bag (his costume had a treat bucket that was kind
> of small so we brought along a spare bag - the L&L conference tote
> as a matter of fact - to handle overflow) and he trick or treated
> one sock on one sock off quite happily. The other sock was there
> should he decide he needed it.
>

I dont poste alot but this made me chuckle... my 6 ds is going through this
no underwear and has to wear snowboots with no socks phase!! Hubby has a
fit... I said I carry underwear in my purse cause well hes also accident prone so
we sometimes take inpromtu trips to the dr and socks cause you never know if we
will end up somewhere socks are needed! But to fight the battle daily nope
hes fine and if I get those looks sometimes cause of the snowboots oh well!!
Smiles

Chrissy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb

--- In [email protected], Homeschlfor2@a... wrote:
>
> I dont poste alot but this made me chuckle... my 6 ds is going
>through this
> no underwear and has to wear snowboots with no socks phase!!
A friend's son went through a time a few years back (he's 8 now so it
was probably 4 yrs or so ago) when he wore his fire engine red
galoshes/boots everywhere every day for months - right through the
summer even (made my feet sweaty just looking at them but he was okay).

That's one thing DS always puts on his list of things he likes about
being home instead of school - he can just stay naked all day if he
wants to. A few weeks ago I was heading to the grocery store and asked
if he wanted to come (it was evening, after dinner, and he generally
likes to come with me) and he said No thanks - he had been naked all
day and didn't feel like getting clothes on. And there have been times
when he just tossed on a pair of sweatpants or shorts in the morning
and spent the day out and about "commando" (sans underpants). Seems to
be a Y chromosome thing in our house since both DH and FIL prefer
minimal clothing whenever possible (hmm TMI??lol)

--Deb