[email protected]

I have received notice of a HUGE number of new members to this list in the last few days!

Any of you want to introduce yourselves ? Or maybe tell us how you found us? <g>

The list is particularly quiet right now. I'm busy with the conference, Ren's computer's dead, Rue's busy filling orders for her brand new book: _Parenting a Free Child: An Unschooling Life_, and Deb's been camping in the wilds of Montana! <G> I don't know about the rest of you!

But it *has* been quieter than usual.

Just to let many of you know: the list will be even quieter that first week in October when many of us will descend on the St Louis area for the Live and Learn Unschooling Conference. But the list activity will pick up a LOT after that!

Any questions? Concerns?

We're all ears...or ...eyes? <g>

~Kelly


Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michele K

Hello! I'm new to the list, but not new to unschooling. That I've been doing since, oh, I guess May 24, 2001. However, it has been a long journey coming to understand unschooling and have faith in it, a journey I'm still just beginning in some ways. Funny, because my biggest concern about it was in the area of academics at first, but now I have become quite convinced it works for that, as my 4 year old is rapidly learning to read, choosing to read phonics readers whenever the urge strikes, and repeatedly asking me out of the blue to spell things for her and what 2 and 5 are... I'm continually amazed at how much she has learned despite my "failure" to plan and implement structured activities. But, it always made sense to me that just like my children learned to walk and talk when they were ready, they'd also eventually be ready to read, etc. (oh, my second daughter is starting to put words together--so cute, and one of my favorite things, language acquisition!!) It's the
lifestyle of unschooling that I'm struggling with more now. Changing my automatic reactions, figuring out why my girls do what they do, learning how to work toward mutually satisfactory solutions...

Thanks for letting me listen in and learn. Will those who attend the conference next month share a bit with the group upon returning?

p.s by way of more introduction, we live in Fredericksburg, VA, and you can read more about me at my website
http://www.scraphammer.net/whero13.htm


Michele, mommy to Rhiannon 5/01 & Caroline 11/03

---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jlh44music

> The list is particularly quiet right now. I'm busy with the
conference......>>>>>,>
> But it *has* been quieter than usual. Just to let many of you know:
the list will be even quieter that first week in October when many of
us will descend on the St Louis area for the Live and Learn Unschooling
Conference. But the list activity will pick up a LOT after that!
> Any questions? Concerns? We're all ears...or ...eyes? <g>

Thanks for posting this Kelly. I HAVE recommended this group to some
people new to unschooling lately, so it's good for the newbies to know
why it's quiet. I have a yahoo email address. and can easily accesss
the acrhives and previous messages, can those who get digests do the
same, to start reading and absorbing?
Jann

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/15/2005 8:51:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mommy2girlsrc@... writes:

p.s by way of more introduction, we live in Fredericksburg, VA, and you can
read more about me at my website
http://www.scraphammer.net/whero13.htm


Michele, mommy to Rhiannon 5/01 & Caroline 11/03



*****************

Welcome, Michele!!

Hey, I used to live in Fred! We moved a few years ago, but we might be
coming back in '07 (although we now can't afford the house we sold....).

Leslie (currently) in SC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

staceyanitra

--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
> I have received notice of a HUGE number of new members to this
list in the last few days!

Hi Kelly,
I am one of those new members. My name is Stacey. I have four
kids. dd 7, ds 5, ds 2, and ds 8 months. We are an American family
living in Saudi Arabia. This is our first year fulltime
homeschooling. Right now we are using a curriculum, a school in a
box basically. But I have serious doubts that this is right for my
dd. She really resists her reading lessons. I like the curriculum
bc my work is done for me. I just look over each lesson the day
before and get the things ready that I need. And the lesson manual
tells me just what to do. While this makes life easy for me... it
doesn't feel so right to me. I have read how many parents begin
homeschooling by using a curriculum. And then they figure out that
it doesn't work for them and they turn to unschooling. I like that
idea but I am not there yet. Unschooling sounds like the answer to
me... I just don't know what we'd do. Does that make sense? Everyone
answers that question (what do we do?) by saying "whatever we
want." etc. But then I wonder how will my kids learn math and
reading and other subjects. I can understand that concept for
science. But math? Ok, adding, subtracting, counting, yet. But how
would algebra be taught or calculus? I have _The Homeschooling
Answer Book_ by Linda Dobson and loved it when I read it. I have
just recently begun t look through it again. One person in the books
said something great that really opened my eyes. Pat Montgomery
said, "Many homes-educating parents bite the bait. They accept the
myth that educating is about curriculum, textbooks, tests, and
lesson plans, the trappings of institutional schools. I submit that
the design of a child's education out to be about the child. What
are his interests? Her needs? His capabilities? Parents are not
bound by the constricts of schools, which deal with such large
number of students they find it easier to teach to the average
students." That really struck me. I so want to have my kids learn
what they want. But for some reason I can't get it together. With 4
kids I often feel really bogged down. I tend to get stressed out so
easily and then my health is affected. It just seems to me that a
curriculum is easier right now.

I joined this list hoping you all could help me. I hate fighting
with my dd about reading. I took her out of school bc she was
unhappy. But how is this any better? I feel really torn.
Additionally, I am super isolated. We live outside of a small town.
We don't get out that often bc my dh takes the car and we don't have
the selection of places we could go.

That's enough for now. This intro has turned into a vent, a plea for
help, ideas. It has gotten too long. Thanks for reading this whole
thing. I look forward to getting to know you all.

Stacey
Mom to Tasneem 2-98, Umar, 4-00, Yusuf 12-02, and Zayd 12-04

staceyanitra

HI Michele,

--- In [email protected], Michele K
<mommy2girlsrc@y...> wrote:
>snip Funny, because my biggest concern about it was in the area of
academics at first,

That is my biggest concern right now.

> but now I have become quite convinced it works for that, as my 4
year old is rapidly learning to read, choosing to read phonics
readers whenever the urge strikes, <

This is where I'd like to be. How did you get there?


snip
>
> p.s by way of more introduction, we live in Fredericksburg, VA,
and you can read more about me at my website


I used to live in Falls Church. I have a friend in Fredericksburg
and have 2 others who used to live there. Small world.

Ren Allen

" I so want to have my kids learn
what they want. But for some reason I can't get it together. With 4
kids I often feel really bogged down. I tend to get stressed out so
easily and then my health is affected. It just seems to me that a
curriculum is easier right now. "

I know it might be hard to step back from what you're saying, but
I'm reading this and thinking to myself "she's bogged down, stressed
out and curriculum is EASIER!??"
Read your own post again, it's full of answers. You're not
describing joyful living, peaceful learning or a family following
their passions. You're describing survival, tension and struggle
between yourself and your child.
Unschooling is the opposite of that.

How would you feel about putting the books away, forgetting that
curriculum ever existed and calling the next few months "vacation"?
Just go on an extended summer vacation...rent movies you love, seek
out fun places to visit in your town, take long walks and picnics,
watch the stars at night, go swimming, roast marshmallows and drink
rootbeer floats, create clay sculptures, tell jokes, play silly
games in the dark, build forts and hide in them, paint pictures,
take photos, tell stories about your childhood...in short, treat
life like it's a TREASURE, because it IS.

Seek out joy first and foremost, put relationships above learning
and just see what happens. The magic unschooling fairy just waved
her wand and gave you "time off" from schooling without your
children "falling behind".
So go for it. Your heart is screaming at you, your beautiful
children are pointing the way. So stop listening to all those years
of school training and listen to your hearts voice, just listen.

Ren

Manisha Kher

--- staceyanitra <nursnmama@...> wrote:

> But how
> would algebra be taught or calculus?
From algebra or calculus books, of course :) But the
real question is - is the kid interested in algebra or
calculus? When she has a need for it, she'll be able
to pick up a book and learn from it. I am an engineer
and I've studied years and years of math including
several years of calculus. Yet when a friend's kid was
learning quadratic equations in school and wanted to
know where they're used, I could not come up with any
use for them.

Also remember that algebra doesn't start till middle
school and calculus till high school or so. Don't let
the worry of something that's years away kill the joy
of today.

Manisha


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: jlh44music <jlh44music@...>
Thanks for posting this Kelly. I HAVE recommended this group to some
people new to unschooling lately, so it's good for the newbies to know
why it's quiet. I have a yahoo email address. and can easily accesss
the acrhives and previous messages, can those who get digests do the
same, to start reading and absorbing?
Jann
-=-=-=-

ANy member should be able to access the archives.

You can look at past months and see the regular activity level. We're quieter than some of the other unschooling e-lists for sure! And that can be a *good* thing! But usua;;y we're more active than *this*!

If you're expecting some serious discussion, please consider reading the list's archives. You can also find great unschooling essays at these three places---and I'll let some link fairy come and post them for you conveniently in one place:

www.SandraDodd.com/unschooling

Joyce Fetteroll's excellent new site (nice to know you've just been *busy* Joyce---I was worried about you! <g>)

Pam Sorooshian's Hightlights e-list for those who like "The Best Of"/"Greatest Hits" albums! <g>

Danielle Conger's blog site

Again, some clever person with a computer that W-O-R-K-S will come by and fill in those addresses. But they can keep you *very* busy until we're all back on track here!

Please feel free to post. Others will pipe up and throw in their two cents!

~Kelly





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Thank you, Rue!

But did anyone else notice that Rue didn't even MENTION her *OWN* wonderful new BOOK---perfect for the beginning unschooler???????????????

Parenting a Free Child

She can also come back and put her own website up! <bwg>

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org


-----Original Message-----
From: Rue Kream <skreams@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 15:59:26 -0400
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Re: new unschoolers


>>I'll let some link fairy come and post them for you conveniently in one
place:

*********************************************

http://sandradodd.com/unschooling

http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingHighlights/?yguid=152271008

http://organiclearning.blogspot.com/

and I'll add http://www.unschooling.info/resources.htm








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rue Kream

>>She can also come back and put her own website up! <bwg>

**I will, but only because I'm going to see you in a couple of weeks and I
don't want to get whacked upside the head :o). http://www.freechild.info/
~Rue


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michele K

Leslie530@... wrote:Hey, I used to live in Fred! We moved a few years ago, but we might be
coming back in '07 (although we now can't afford the house we sold....).

Leslie (currently) in SC
=================================

Hi Leslie!
I know what you mean! We wouldn't be able to afford the house we live in either.


Michele, mommy to Rhiannon 5/01 & Caroline 11/03

---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michele K

I wrote:
>snip Funny, because my biggest concern about it was in the area of academics at first,

staceyanitra <nursnmama@...> wrote: That is my biggest concern right now.

I wrote: > but now I have become quite convinced it works for that, as my 4 year old is rapidly learning to read, choosing to read phonics readers whenever the urge strikes, <

Stacey wrote: This is where I'd like to be. How did you get there?

I suppose it was easier for me because I first learned of unschooling when my oldest daughter was only 2 years old. I couldn't imagine doing it for older kids (back then), but it made complete sense to me for toddlers and preschoolers. Little kids are learning machines. Language acquisition, for one thing, is so amazing! Look at what they do when they're so little, picking up the complexities of language, and all they need is other people talking with them. I just spent time playing and talking with my girls and watched them learn despite my sparse follow through on structured pre-planned activities. Now Rhiannon is self-motivated to learn to read and figure out how adding and subtracting works, and how the world works in general, naturally. And since she is only 4 and there's no rush it has been easy to relax and watch her and wait to be asked for help rather than trying to actively teach her. I'm lucky, really, that I have discovered unschooling so early, so I can see it
working, naturally, at such a young age before academics seem more "serious." Not sure I'm being clear, sorry. It's late, I'm getting sleepy. Feel free to ask me to explain better.

Stacey wrote: I used to live in Falls Church. I have a friend in Fredericksburg and have 2 others who used to live there. Small world.

Wow, it is amazing! :)


Michele, mommy to Rhiannon 5/01 & Caroline 11/03
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michele K

http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/

Wow! This is awesome! I've visited Sandra Dodd's website many times over the last couple of years, but this one is totally new to me! And I thought I was about to shut down the computer and go to bed! Silly me!

(thank you!)


Michele, mommy to Rhiannon 5/01 & Caroline 11/03

---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Danielle Conger

kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

> Thank you, Rue!
>
> But did anyone else notice that Rue didn't even MENTION her *OWN*
> wonderful new BOOK---perfect for the beginning unschooler???????????????
>
> Parenting a Free Child
>
> She can also come back and put her own website up! <bwg>

And this just came through yesterday on the AU list:

"Well when Rue's book came out I jumped on that opportunity. I received
the book yesturday and I love it!! I think it will definately be helpful
for new unschoolers and for people to answer some of those annoying
questions. I love the quotes at the top of the pages also. I just wanted
to let everyone know it is a great book!! Have a great day today!"

--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha

staceyanitra

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@n...> wrote:

>
> I know it might be hard to step back from what you're saying, but
> I'm reading this and thinking to myself "she's bogged down,
stressed
> out and curriculum is EASIER!??"

Yes it is hard to step back and that is why i am here. the
curriculim seems easier only bc there is little plaining involved.
less time before hand is needed.


> Read your own post again, it's full of answers. You're not
> describing joyful living, peaceful learning or a family following
> their passions. You're describing survival, tension and struggle
> between yourself and your child.


Yes i know. and that is what saddens me...

> Unschooling is the opposite of that.


So I hear.

>
> How would you feel about putting the books away, forgetting that
> curriculum ever existed and calling the next few months "vacation"?
> Just go on an extended summer vacation...
snip
>So stop listening to all those years
> of school training and listen to your hearts voice, just listen.

That's the thing. I feel like if we try an extended summer
vacation... we will miss things, get behind. i hear what u are
saying... but my brain tells me that we'll lose months. what u say
makes sense... how does one ignore those years of school training?
has anyone else had a hard time with this or is it just me? how
much can my kids learn by just hanging out and playing? i do feel
that is important, but how much will they learn?

(please be gentle with me... i came here hoping for some help... i
am open to new things, and i like the idea of unschooling, as i said
before.)

stacey

>
> Ren

staceyanitra

--- In [email protected], Manisha Kher <m_kher@y...>
wrote:
>Don't let
> the worry of something that's years away kill the joy
> of today.


So true. Thanks Manisha. I have a tendency to do this. And I am
trying to work on it.

Stacey

[email protected]

I only have a minute---too many other things to tend to! And I want to respond to your longer post; I will later.

But there are a couple of unschooling moms who have lost children who will quickly tell you that the body of knowledge you child knows is NOTHING compared to the amount of love and joy that *you*, the MOM, allow into your lives.

If you live your lives as if this were your last day/week/month/year with your children...REALLY live that way---pursuing their passions, their dreams, their loves---THAT's unschooling!

We can *almost* guarantee that a life lived with passion and delight and joy will result in an "educated" adult.

Wake up every morning and pretend that today is the last day you have with those beautiful children. Still want to cram math facts into those darling heads??? Go to the park! Count the robins! See how much of a head-start they need in order to arrive at the finish at the same time as you. Buy ice cream cones---add toppings.

We can't guarantee our children will be here tomorrow. We CAN give them sweet, joyful lives for as long as they are in our care. And all that will lead to their wanting to know more and do more and BE more!

Cramming facts can't do that!

~Kelly


Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org


-----Original Message-----
From: staceyanitra <nursnmama@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:01:55 -0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: new unschoolers


--- In [email protected], Manisha Kher <m_kher@y...>
wrote:
>Don't let
> the worry of something that's years away kill the joy
> of today.


So true. Thanks Manisha. I have a tendency to do this. And I am
trying to work on it.

Stacey


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie-TX

I have just been incredibly busy with "life"!

Welcome to all the newbies out there !

I live in Irving...have a 10 yr old boy :)

Hugs to all

Julie in Texas



--- kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

> I have received notice of a HUGE number of new
> members to this list in the last few days!
>
> Any of you want to introduce yourselves ? Or maybe
> tell us how you found us? <g>
>
> The list is particularly quiet right now. I'm busy
> with the conference, Ren's computer's dead, Rue's
> busy filling orders for her brand new book:
> _Parenting a Free Child: An Unschooling Life_, and
> Deb's been camping in the wilds of Montana! <G> I
> don't know about the rest of you!
>
> But it *has* been quieter than usual.
>
> Just to let many of you know: the list will be even
> quieter that first week in October when many of us
> will descend on the St Louis area for the Live and
> Learn Unschooling Conference. But the list activity
> will pick up a LOT after that!
>
> Any questions? Concerns?
>
> We're all ears...or ...eyes? <g>
>
> ~Kelly
>
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> October 6-9, 2005
> http://liveandlearnconference.org
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


www.insulinisnotacure.com Juvenile Diabetes Message Board

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[email protected]

In a message dated 9/16/2005 8:28:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:

We can *almost* guarantee that a life lived with passion and delight and joy
will result in an "educated" adult.



***********

So true, Kelly.

My suggestion is to spend some time thinking about *knowledge* in the form
of learned facts. Have you read much on how people learn? My favorite book
right now is the Book of Learning and Forgetting by Frank Smith.

Some random questions to get you started thinking and have fun with:

- What do I want for my children to be as adults? Happy? Content? Harvard
graduate?
Why?

- How do I give them what they need to be that?

- Would I truly care if my child was the most joyful person on Earth, but
only a fry cook at McDonald's? (Most people tell me they do care very much that
their kid is "only" something or other....and those kids are not radically
unschooled). If that is the case, is that serving the child's needs or my
own? Is that OK with me?

- What is more important, to be someone that is knowledgeable about facts or
to be someone who is eager and able to learn? How might you help someone be
eager?

- Are facts really necessary in the technological age? (Hint: we don't even
have to leave our homes anymore to get most necessary information.....and
much of it is instantaneous)

- How do you learn about a new hobby? By learning everything about it
before you attempt it, or by learning as you go along?

- If you had a whole year to do anything you wanted (and all of your basic
needs were taken care of....food, shelter, cleaning), what would you do?
Note: at first you might do things you normally didn't get a chance to like read
non-stop or watch movies non-stop or a favorite hobby non-stop. But that
would get boring after awhile. You would eventually get tuned in to your own
rhythms and would have times when you wanted to be around people and others
when you wanted to be alone. Times when you wanted to work and accomplish
things, times when you wanted to just chill out. Times when you had so many
thoughts you wanted to organize them on paper, times when you just wanted to be
still. You might pick up a new hobby to give it a try, you might finish a
project or leave it until later. If you truly honored these rhythms, don't you
think you would be content? Isn't everything the best use of your time and
your brain?

- What will the future be like? Will my child need the same skills and
facts I do?

- Could a child who has been given the gift of using his time and brain
exactly how it feels the best have not a "well-trained mind" but a "well-used
mind"? Wouldn't the "well-used mind" have amassed plenty of factual knowledge,
too?

- What if the "well-trained mind" has no use in the future because what it
has been trained in has become useless?

- Could a "well-used mind" continue to adapt to changing circumstances?
Could it become a "useful mind"?

- What if to that "well-used mind" you added your love and joy and interest
and support? The gift to your child is also that he *knows* he is loved and
cared for and his ideas are valid and important. What sort of person will
that child grow up to be?

Have a joy filled day!

Leslie in SC




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

"I feel like if we try an extended summer
vacation... we will miss things, get behind"

You're missing them most important things right now. What do you
have to lose? It sounds like you realize that the whole "get
behind" thing is just brainwashing, so maybe it will be easier for
you to let go of that?
Are you "behind" me if you don't know about the things I do? Is
anyone "behind" anyone else in real life, just because they know and
DO different things?
I can tell you exactly how to can peaches, pears and tomatoes, but
don't ask me how to bake a perfect Baklava, 'cuz I wouldn't know!
I can paint, draw reasonably well, create altered books, sculpt,
collage and figure out almost anything related to art...but if you
want to know how to fix your computer or car, you better call
somebody else!
Am I "behind" because I can't tell you how to fix your engine? Or is
the rest of the world "behind" me because I can paint a face that
looks ready for a magazine and the average citizen doesn't even know
how to apply eyeshadow?:)

As adults, it is accepted and normal for everyone to have different
knowledge, different skills and abilities. That's called diversity
and it's a GOOD thing! But children are held to a different
standard. They're ALL supposed to know the same things at the same
time...what a CROCK!
That isn't how human beings work. We aren't MEANT to know the same
things...ever. If a topic is useful, your children will learn it
when they need it.
You can learn algebra when you're 50, much better and with greater
ease if you need it, than trying to force yourself to learn it
before you need it at 15. People only need the information they need
for NOW. If they need it in the future, they should learn it in the
future.

You are faced with a choice today. You can continue missing out on
the most important things in life...joy, peace, connectedness,
relationships, passion, interest and love for learning. You can miss
those things and continue trying to force the unimportant
things....the world falsely divided into subjects like math,
geography, science etc...
You can miss all the wonderful connections that real learning
offers, with no subject topics dividing your learning, or you can
continue to unhappily push towards some kind of academic success.

What do you fear if you let go?
What is the very WORST thing that can happen if you unschool?

What if your children learn NOTHING for the next ten years (not
possible, but let's run with that) and they only gain self-
confidence and joy? Heck, anyone that has a love of learning and
loads of self-confidence can teach themselves ANYTHING at any time
in their lives.
So load them up with joy and love, the rest will be in their hands.
Try to NOT learn anything, focus on what really matters in life.

If your child died tomorrow, what would matter more today? Reading,
math and social studies? Or a life lived fully for RIGHT NOW?

Ren

nrskay

Ren;

Thank you for your pearls of wisdom. I'm also new to unschooling and
worry about if my dd (11yo) is learning anything knew. But then I'm
reminded by people like yourself on this site that our children are
learning, that it is part of life. My dd knows how to read, do
general math and knows how to research things when she wants to know
something.

I have friends who are homeschooling and they are worried that they
are not teaching according to the scope and sequence here in CA. I
just shake my head and smile! I also noticed that some of these
mothers are beginning to look burned out as I was last year. I guess
it's time to start sharing my new freedom.

Kay

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 16, 2005, at 7:56 AM, staceyanitra wrote:

> how
> much can my kids learn by just hanging out and playing?

How much English did they learn by hanging out and playing?

How much of a foreign language did you learn by sitting in a class
for 2 years?

> i hear what u are
> saying... but my brain tells me that we'll lose months.

The information goes in and pauses but it doesn't stick because it
isn't used. So for all the months spent being taught in a year or two
it's mostly gone. So what is gained?

The advantage of schooling is that from the outside it *looks* like
learning is happening. It's like a coat of whitewash on a rotted fence.

> has anyone else had a hard time with this or is it just me?

Most everyone. Quieting the voices, getting rid of the scripts in our
heads is probably one of the hardest things. We spend most of our
lives hearing that we need to do well in school in order to succeed.
Even in the midst of school when what we're learning doesn't seem to
have any relevance we *have* to believe school is the best way to be
successful in the future or all the torture we're going through is
all for nothing.

> how does one ignore those years of school training?

By reading about unschoolers and about unschooling. By recognizing
that the thoughts are wrong even when they keep popping up. By
letting the kids unschool while you bite your tongue :-)

> i do feel
> that is important, but how much will they learn?

The learning is not going to look like kids doing school on their
own. It's going to look like playing.

What did learning English look like?

Joyce Fetteroll
New old stuff at: http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/





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jlh44music

> That's the thing. I feel like if we try an extended summer
vacation... we will miss things, get behind. i hear what u are
saying... but my brain tells me that we'll lose months. what u say
makes sense... how does one ignore those years of school training?
has anyone else had a hard time with this or is it just me? how
much can my kids learn by just hanging out and playing? i do feel
that is important, but how much will they learn?>>>

> (please be gentle with me... i came here hoping for some help... i
am open to new things, and i like the idea of unschooling, as i said
before.)>>>>

Welcome Stacey!
We're new to homeschooling too, dd just finished 6th grade and she's
deschooling big time. I researched homeschooling starting over 2
years ago, then found unschooling. I remember I first thought "no
way! That sounds WAY to loose for me!". I kept reading (have you read
any John Holt, John Taylor Gatto, there are others) and kept coming
BACK to unschooling. Something about it resonated with me. And, more
importantly, what made more sense to me was what I was reading about
education. I've always been interested in learning styles (this has
been the issue with my dd and the cause of her "problems" in school -
they felt she was "broken" and needed to be fixed - that's a very
simplistic explanation, I won't go into our story right now, I may have
posted it here when I first joined, I'll have to see what I wrote).

Children learn things at very different paces, so if they're not ready
to "learn" whatever the schools say they SHOULD be learning in grade 3
or whatever, so what! Does that mean they've failed? And also,
something I never thought about before, WHY do children need to "learn"
the things listed for each grade in that particular year? Think about
it - try to get away from "thinking like the masses" JUST BECAUSE it's
always been that way, think more about, what's REALLY important to know
(and it will vary for each child). Yes, it's good to be able to read,
write somewhat (or type, computers/internet), do some basic math
(balance a checkbook someday or budget your money, make change), but
beyond that, how much do YOU remember of what was "taught" to you in
school? Algebra? Shakespeare? Table of elements in chem?

I happen to LOVE math, and both my dd and dh ABHOR it! I love to read
for pleasure, neither of them do. But I KNOW my daughter can read, she
has a wonderful vocabulary because we talk, discuss thoughts and
ideas. Not all learning occurs in a book, nor does it occur in
school. We're learning all the time, life long learning, it should
never stop! It should be a JOY to learn about new things, not hated
because we're forced to learn something either we're not interested in
or not ready for (but maybe it will be something we would have
discovered on our own if allowed to at our own pace).

It IS hard to change our perception of what true learning is! You
can't, nor should you, ignore your own experience of what "learning"
is. It IS hard for many people who have not unschooled from the
beginning to "get it" (can you see me raising my hand! me too! me
too!). Read, read, and read some more about unschooling (check under
the Links part of this group for book recommendations, websites, etc).
Some people may even post their favorite book or website, the ONE that
did it for them. For me, it was "Dumbing Us Down" by John Taylor
Gatto. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-
/0865714487/qid=1126898108/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-9013486-3932159?
v=glance&s=books&n=507846 There are MANY more (we moved a while back
and my books are still in boxes so I can't just glance over at my
bookcase to see what they are, but I'm going to make a list for
sharing).

Ask questions, read the archives here, try to be open to a new way of
thinking. You WILL sometimes feel like you're being challenged, and
you are! <grin> but it's meant to help, to get you to think outside
your own box and way of viewing "school". I had the same reactions in
the beginning, but I slowed down and took time to absorb what was being
said to me and truly realized that the people on this site WANT to
help, they're really good at getting to the heart of what they "hear"
you saying as opposed to what you "think" you're saying (if that makes
sense!).

So, I wanted to chime in as a newbie who's getting it but also
struggled with "letting go" of the "traditional" way of viewing
education, school and learning. I'm so grateful for the wisdom of the
people on this group. I hope you will grow as you read, question,
listen, experience the joy that unschooling can bring to your life.
Jann

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 16, 2005, at 12:51 AM, Michele K wrote:

> Wow! This is awesome! I've visited Sandra Dodd's website many
> times over the last couple of years, but this one is totally new to
> me! And I thought I was about to shut down the computer and go to
> bed! Silly me!

The site's new, the posts are old ;-)

Glad you're enjoying it! :-)

Joyce Fetteroll
New old stuff at: http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/





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[email protected]

----Original Message-----
From: Leslie530@...



- What if the "well-trained mind" has no use in the future because what it
has been trained in has become useless?

- Could a "well-used mind" continue to adapt to changing circumstances?
Could it become a "useful mind"?

- What if to that "well-used mind" you added your love and joy and interest
and support? The gift to your child is also that he *knows* he is loved and
cared for and his ideas are valid and important. What sort of person will
that child grow up to be?
-=-=-=-=-

I cannot TELL you how much I LOVE the term, *well-used mind*---it's at the top of my
hitlist now!
WOW!
~Kelly
Kelly LovejoyConference CoordinatorLive and Learn Unschooling ConferenceOctober 6-9, 2005http://liveandlearnconference.org


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

staceyanitra

--- In [email protected], Michele K
<mommy2girlsrc@y...> wrote:
snip
I'm lucky, really, that I have discovered unschooling so early, so I
can see it
> working, naturally, at such a young age before academics seem
more "serious." Not sure I'm being clear, sorry. It's late, I'm
getting sleepy. Feel free to ask me to explain better.


I understand. Thanks for your reply Michele.

Stacey

staceyanitra

Wow Kelly,

What an emotional post. That you for those reminders. And how right
you are. I have a friend who lost two daughters two days apart and
I am sure she would say you are right on. It actually brought tears
to my eyes to read.

Stacey

--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
> I only have a minute---too many other things to tend to! And I
want to respond to your longer post; I will later.
>
> But there are a couple of unschooling moms who have lost children
who will quickly tell you that the body of knowledge you child knows
is NOTHING compared to the amount of love and joy that *you*, the
MOM, allow into your lives.
>
> If you live your lives as if this were your last
day/week/month/year with your children...REALLY live that way---
pursuing their passions, their dreams, their loves---THAT's
unschooling!
>
> We can *almost* guarantee that a life lived with passion and
delight and joy will result in an "educated" adult.
>
> Wake up every morning and pretend that today is the last day you
have with those beautiful children. Still want to cram math facts
into those darling heads??? Go to the park! Count the robins! See
how much of a head-start they need in order to arrive at the finish
at the same time as you. Buy ice cream cones---add toppings.
>
> We can't guarantee our children will be here tomorrow. We CAN give
them sweet, joyful lives for as long as they are in our care. And
all that will lead to their wanting to know more and do more and BE
more!
>
> Cramming facts can't do that!
>
> ~Kelly
>
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> October 6-9, 2005
> http://liveandlearnconference.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: staceyanitra <nursnmama@h...>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:01:55 -0000
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: new unschoolers
>
>
> --- In [email protected], Manisha Kher
<m_kher@y...>
> wrote:
> >Don't let
> > the worry of something that's years away kill the joy
> > of today.
>
>
> So true. Thanks Manisha. I have a tendency to do this. And I am
> trying to work on it.
>
> Stacey
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

staceyanitra

WOW Leslie,

That got me thinking. Thanks! Thank you everyone for posts like
this that make me think. This is what I needed. I will fwd them
all to my dh as well. And my kids thank you as well. I will look
into this book. What other books are good?

Stacey

--- In [email protected], Leslie530@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/16/2005 8:28:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> kbcdlovejo@a... writes:
>
> We can *almost* guarantee that a life lived with passion and
delight and joy
> will result in an "educated" adult.
>
>
>
> ***********
>
> So true, Kelly.
>
> My suggestion is to spend some time thinking about *knowledge* in
the form
> of learned facts. Have you read much on how people learn? My
favorite book
> right now is the Book of Learning and Forgetting by Frank Smith.
>
> Some random questions to get you started thinking and have fun
with:
>
> - What do I want for my children to be as adults? Happy?
Content? Harvard
> graduate?
> Why?
>
> - How do I give them what they need to be that?
>
> - Would I truly care if my child was the most joyful person on
Earth, but
> only a fry cook at McDonald's? (Most people tell me they do care
very much that
> their kid is "only" something or other....and those kids are not
radically
> unschooled). If that is the case, is that serving the child's
needs or my
> own? Is that OK with me?
>
> - What is more important, to be someone that is knowledgeable
about facts or
> to be someone who is eager and able to learn? How might you help
someone be
> eager?
>
> - Are facts really necessary in the technological age? (Hint: we
don't even
> have to leave our homes anymore to get most necessary
information.....and
> much of it is instantaneous)
>
> - How do you learn about a new hobby? By learning everything
about it
> before you attempt it, or by learning as you go along?
>
> - If you had a whole year to do anything you wanted (and all of
your basic
> needs were taken care of....food, shelter, cleaning), what would
you do?
> Note: at first you might do things you normally didn't get a
chance to like read
> non-stop or watch movies non-stop or a favorite hobby non-stop.
But that
> would get boring after awhile. You would eventually get tuned in
to your own
> rhythms and would have times when you wanted to be around people
and others
> when you wanted to be alone. Times when you wanted to work and
accomplish
> things, times when you wanted to just chill out. Times when you
had so many
> thoughts you wanted to organize them on paper, times when you
just wanted to be
> still. You might pick up a new hobby to give it a try, you might
finish a
> project or leave it until later. If you truly honored these
rhythms, don't you
> think you would be content? Isn't everything the best use of
your time and
> your brain?
>
> - What will the future be like? Will my child need the same
skills and
> facts I do?
>
> - Could a child who has been given the gift of using his time and
brain
> exactly how it feels the best have not a "well-trained mind" but
a "well-used
> mind"? Wouldn't the "well-used mind" have amassed plenty of
factual knowledge,
> too?
>
> - What if the "well-trained mind" has no use in the future because
what it
> has been trained in has become useless?
>
> - Could a "well-used mind" continue to adapt to changing
circumstances?
> Could it become a "useful mind"?
>
> - What if to that "well-used mind" you added your love and joy
and interest
> and support? The gift to your child is also that he *knows* he
is loved and
> cared for and his ideas are valid and important. What sort of
person will
> that child grow up to be?
>
> Have a joy filled day!
>
> Leslie in SC
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]