Answering Concerns about Unschooling
anisadancer1218
My husband and I recently decided on an unschooling approach after
our 11yo son left ps in March. I am reading the literature and am on
several lists. This certainly seems right for our family. My son is
happy. My husband is convinced. Yet I remain fairly anxious. As I am
contending with my own deschooling and rethinking what seemed like my
own positive experience with education, I contend with people outside
of the homeschooling community and their responses to our choice. I
thought I would put out two of the responses I received thatlingered
in my mind.
(1)The first was from (of all people) my mother. Of the concerns she
raised, the one that I have thought about the most is the idea that
we are just making things too easy for our son by dropping out of the
education track. (These seems to be a refrain in her general worry
about other aspects of our parenting approach: such as not
circumcizing our son, not restrictng his food, not forcing him to
play sports.)
(2)The other response to our ourschooling decision came from an
acquaintance who is in a high management position in business. Her
emphasis was that children like all people need to have expectations
set of them. She feels that unless high expectations are set, people
do not try to do well.
I would like to hear what other people might reply to these concerns
as well as any suggestons for articles or books. I think that my
concern is not just about how to respond to people's criticisms but
how to address those cultural influences that remain voices inside of
me.
I live in PA where there aren't many true unschoolers and could use
some assistance.
Thanks,
Andrea
our 11yo son left ps in March. I am reading the literature and am on
several lists. This certainly seems right for our family. My son is
happy. My husband is convinced. Yet I remain fairly anxious. As I am
contending with my own deschooling and rethinking what seemed like my
own positive experience with education, I contend with people outside
of the homeschooling community and their responses to our choice. I
thought I would put out two of the responses I received thatlingered
in my mind.
(1)The first was from (of all people) my mother. Of the concerns she
raised, the one that I have thought about the most is the idea that
we are just making things too easy for our son by dropping out of the
education track. (These seems to be a refrain in her general worry
about other aspects of our parenting approach: such as not
circumcizing our son, not restrictng his food, not forcing him to
play sports.)
(2)The other response to our ourschooling decision came from an
acquaintance who is in a high management position in business. Her
emphasis was that children like all people need to have expectations
set of them. She feels that unless high expectations are set, people
do not try to do well.
I would like to hear what other people might reply to these concerns
as well as any suggestons for articles or books. I think that my
concern is not just about how to respond to people's criticisms but
how to address those cultural influences that remain voices inside of
me.
I live in PA where there aren't many true unschoolers and could use
some assistance.
Thanks,
Andrea
J. Stauffer
<<too easy>>
Does she really want you to make things hard for your son? That seems really mean to me. Kind of like hazing.....I had to endure 12 years of boredom and by the Gods, you will too.
<<<expectations>>>
I do have expectations of my kids. I expect them to be kind and loving. I expect them to be "rotten" at times. I expect them to find things to do that set them on fire and I expect them to expect me to support them in that. I expect them to have periods where all they want to do is stare at a wall and contemplate the universe.
I expect them to be fully human, not a puppy trained to sit quietly and respond on cue.
Julie S.
Does she really want you to make things hard for your son? That seems really mean to me. Kind of like hazing.....I had to endure 12 years of boredom and by the Gods, you will too.
<<<expectations>>>
I do have expectations of my kids. I expect them to be kind and loving. I expect them to be "rotten" at times. I expect them to find things to do that set them on fire and I expect them to expect me to support them in that. I expect them to have periods where all they want to do is stare at a wall and contemplate the universe.
I expect them to be fully human, not a puppy trained to sit quietly and respond on cue.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ruth
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Answering Concerns about Unschooling
Hi Andrea
is the idea that
we are just making things too easy for our son by dropping out of the
education track. (These seems to be a refrain in her general worry
about other aspects of our parenting approach: such as not
circumcizing our son, not restrictng his food, not forcing him to
play sports.)
The education track is what school says it is and for that reason is probably irrelevant to your son and has nothing to do with learning in my opinion. Other issues are your own private business - as his how your child learns - and nothing to do with your mother tbh. My mother had similar concerns to.lol
In response to child need expectations set on them well I can only comment on my own personal family but my eldest son has been unschooled for 4 years and has decided off his own back to apply for a online university place and has just been offered one two years ahead of age time. I have never pressured him this route or pushed or taught him. He did it himself. I think the opposite is true. Setting expectations can cause untold stress and pressure and it is up to the individual child how they want to learn and what.
Ruth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Hi Andrea! It is so hard when you are new at this and people come in to
challenge you. Hang in there! I've been unschooling for three years, have a
great support, and the other night I panicked. My kids will never do (fill in
the blank) if I unschool!
It's normal. And even worse when people you love and admire are questioning
you.
First, remember they aren't you nor have they had your experiences or
benefits of your research. They certainly aren't the mother of *your* child. Some
of my best understanding about unschooling came long before I knew there was
such a thing. These experiences are a part of who I am, and when I found
out about unschooling, all those random experiences joined together and made
sense to me. Not a single person on this list, can share those same
experiences in the same way, so how could someone who doesn't *get* unschooling even
begin to see my point of view?
So, when someone out there is giving you their opinion, that is exactly what
it is....an opinion. A commonly held one, yes, but it is still an opinion.
As for things being "too easy", that is exactly what you are doing! I want
it to BE EASY for my children to learn. I call it the "optimal brain"
learning system. You are releasing your child from all the boredom, competition,
stress, anxiety, and personal sacrifice (you can't eat when you are hungry,
sleep when you are tired, go to the toilet, etc.) that goes along with school.
That makes it HARD to learn. Add to that, having to read when you want to
play, play when you want to read, do math when you weren't done with science
and it is amazing to me that kids learn in school at all.
But that's the point. Kids learn. Period. If the human brain didn't
learn, our species wouldn't be here. Why confuse something that is one of the
most basic of human functions? Why wouldn't I give my child the world and say
"go forth and learn" instead of locking (yes, locking) him away in a building
with lots of enforced rules about how, why, when, what he learns?
School is like that game show they had on Comedy Central (Distraction???).
They would ask people simple questions but would be doing something so
distracting to them, it was really hard for them to answer. Things like going
"lalalalalalalalalalalalala" in their ear.
******(2)The other response to our ourschooling decision came from an
acquaintance who is in a high management position in business. Her
emphasis was that children like all people need to have expectations
set of them. She feels that unless high expectations are set, people
do not try to do well.**********
First of all, your friend may have lots of experience with SCHOOLED people
that don't do well unless they have expectation placed on them. I'm quite
sure she doesn't know any unschooled people. And I doubt an unschooler would
want to work in such an environment anyway.
There was a book a couple of years ago (can someone help me? ack) that
discussed that the future of business would be the free agent, not the corporate
guy. He compared the homeschooling community to this new spirit of business.
This book received high praise. I believe it....I think the age of the
giant corporation is fading. They can't support themselves and their inflated
budgets. We need innovators and people who know how to work for themselves,
not people that know only how to do what they are told.
My children are relatively young, but I am amazed at the expectations they
have for themselves. They decide they want to do something and they set up
parameters and work and work. If things aren't going as planned, they change
their parameters or revisit it later with new info. or skills or scrap the
project. There are moments of frustration, but no one is shaming them or
grading them or expecting more from them. Their self-esteem is in one piece and
they move on to the next idea they have dreamed up.
Life has a way of moving you on. As soon as you have risen to one
challenge, another presents itself. A childhood of happily moving from challenge to
challenge, and getting to choose most of them (some things, like illness, are
beyond our control), will result in a person who will meet adulthood in the
same manner. On their own terms and to their own satisfaction.
A person who has expectations set for them, will spend their life stressing
over meeting or exceeding these expectations and always with other people in
mind. That is a life lived for others, and that person's happiness will
depend on what someone else thinks of them. And the title beneath his name
might hold more importance than who he is as a person.
Leslie in SC (sorry so long, I got on a roll!)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
challenge you. Hang in there! I've been unschooling for three years, have a
great support, and the other night I panicked. My kids will never do (fill in
the blank) if I unschool!
It's normal. And even worse when people you love and admire are questioning
you.
First, remember they aren't you nor have they had your experiences or
benefits of your research. They certainly aren't the mother of *your* child. Some
of my best understanding about unschooling came long before I knew there was
such a thing. These experiences are a part of who I am, and when I found
out about unschooling, all those random experiences joined together and made
sense to me. Not a single person on this list, can share those same
experiences in the same way, so how could someone who doesn't *get* unschooling even
begin to see my point of view?
So, when someone out there is giving you their opinion, that is exactly what
it is....an opinion. A commonly held one, yes, but it is still an opinion.
As for things being "too easy", that is exactly what you are doing! I want
it to BE EASY for my children to learn. I call it the "optimal brain"
learning system. You are releasing your child from all the boredom, competition,
stress, anxiety, and personal sacrifice (you can't eat when you are hungry,
sleep when you are tired, go to the toilet, etc.) that goes along with school.
That makes it HARD to learn. Add to that, having to read when you want to
play, play when you want to read, do math when you weren't done with science
and it is amazing to me that kids learn in school at all.
But that's the point. Kids learn. Period. If the human brain didn't
learn, our species wouldn't be here. Why confuse something that is one of the
most basic of human functions? Why wouldn't I give my child the world and say
"go forth and learn" instead of locking (yes, locking) him away in a building
with lots of enforced rules about how, why, when, what he learns?
School is like that game show they had on Comedy Central (Distraction???).
They would ask people simple questions but would be doing something so
distracting to them, it was really hard for them to answer. Things like going
"lalalalalalalalalalalalala" in their ear.
******(2)The other response to our ourschooling decision came from an
acquaintance who is in a high management position in business. Her
emphasis was that children like all people need to have expectations
set of them. She feels that unless high expectations are set, people
do not try to do well.**********
First of all, your friend may have lots of experience with SCHOOLED people
that don't do well unless they have expectation placed on them. I'm quite
sure she doesn't know any unschooled people. And I doubt an unschooler would
want to work in such an environment anyway.
There was a book a couple of years ago (can someone help me? ack) that
discussed that the future of business would be the free agent, not the corporate
guy. He compared the homeschooling community to this new spirit of business.
This book received high praise. I believe it....I think the age of the
giant corporation is fading. They can't support themselves and their inflated
budgets. We need innovators and people who know how to work for themselves,
not people that know only how to do what they are told.
My children are relatively young, but I am amazed at the expectations they
have for themselves. They decide they want to do something and they set up
parameters and work and work. If things aren't going as planned, they change
their parameters or revisit it later with new info. or skills or scrap the
project. There are moments of frustration, but no one is shaming them or
grading them or expecting more from them. Their self-esteem is in one piece and
they move on to the next idea they have dreamed up.
Life has a way of moving you on. As soon as you have risen to one
challenge, another presents itself. A childhood of happily moving from challenge to
challenge, and getting to choose most of them (some things, like illness, are
beyond our control), will result in a person who will meet adulthood in the
same manner. On their own terms and to their own satisfaction.
A person who has expectations set for them, will spend their life stressing
over meeting or exceeding these expectations and always with other people in
mind. That is a life lived for others, and that person's happiness will
depend on what someone else thinks of them. And the title beneath his name
might hold more importance than who he is as a person.
Leslie in SC (sorry so long, I got on a roll!)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather
Hi Leslie,
Is this the book you were thinking of?
Free
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0446678791/qid=1119107886/sr=
8-2/ref=pd_csp_2/103-9192923-7557455?v=glance&s=books&n=507846> Agent
Nation: The Future of Working for Yourself by Daniel H. Pink
Heather M
tucson
<There was a book a couple of years ago (can someone help me? ack) that
discussed that the future of business would be the free agent, not the
corporate
guy. He compared the homeschooling community to this new spirit of
business.
This book received high praise. I believe it....I think the age of the
giant corporation is fading. They can't support themselves and their
inflated
budgets. We need innovators and people who know how to work for
themselves,
not people that know only how to do what they are told.>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Is this the book you were thinking of?
Free
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0446678791/qid=1119107886/sr=
8-2/ref=pd_csp_2/103-9192923-7557455?v=glance&s=books&n=507846> Agent
Nation: The Future of Working for Yourself by Daniel H. Pink
Heather M
tucson
<There was a book a couple of years ago (can someone help me? ack) that
discussed that the future of business would be the free agent, not the
corporate
guy. He compared the homeschooling community to this new spirit of
business.
This book received high praise. I believe it....I think the age of the
giant corporation is fading. They can't support themselves and their
inflated
budgets. We need innovators and people who know how to work for
themselves,
not people that know only how to do what they are told.>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<<< (1)The first was from (of all people) my mother. Of the concerns she
raised, the one that I have thought about the most is the idea that
we are just making things too easy for our son by dropping out of the
education track. (These seems to be a refrain in her general worry
about other aspects of our parenting approach: such as not
circumcizing our son, not restrictng his food, not forcing him to
play sports.) >>>>>
I got the idea that most people consider circumcising a way to make it
*easier* for boys as they grow up - by being the same as other boys around
them and for ease of hygiene (which I understand to be a myth), so it is
surprising to hear not doing that it is "making his life too easy".
I would suspect that your mother will probably come to see that your son is
setting his own goals, and choosing challenges of increasing complexity over
time.
It is tempting to start trying to point out areas where our chosen life
might be harder to follow than a conventional one, especially in the areas
of being different or fitting in, or our kids growing up to be people who
take the harder road of taking responsibility for themselves instead of
being followers.
However this broader idea that we as parents should be trying to make life
difficult for our children because life itself is "not easy" is worth
examining. It is also worth asking other people to examine why they are
saying "life should be hard", to force *them* to really think it over.
It is fairly illogical that *if* life is tough, we should therefore make it
even tougher. I believe that I can trust the economy, the unpredictability
of our neighbors or professional colleagues, the weather, our powerlessness
over other people, the unlucky chance that leaves a nail in my driveway, and
so on, to provide enough challenges in real life without me having to make
up extra troubles. Being out of school will not remove these life
challenges, just the school based ones which are contrived.
I also believe that our homes can and should be a haven from the
tribulations of the world, especially for our children as they learn to cope
with their own development as well as learn about life. I don't have to
break Jayn's finger to give her experience in coping with pain in case she
breaks her arm one day - I would rather help her keep her fingers safe.
I also don't want her to think of her home life as something she will
eventually be able to escape from, which I believe is a prevalent attitude
amongst conventionally schooled and parented children. I have a couple of
little neighbors who, at the ages of 7 and 5, are already trying to escape
over here as often as possible.
But aside from that I believe that the idea that life *should* be hard, that
suffering is ennobling, is erroneous - a mythic paradigm stemming from some
religions, and a jolly good excuse to not help people in poverty or trouble.
I prefer to live with the paradigm that although life sometimes has
challenges, our true selves and our higher nature lie in the pursuit of
happiness. Certainly tragedies occur, people do have real and serious
problems, and hubris makes great drama. However a life of joy is not an
earned reward, but a philosophical choice. And if troubles lie around the
corner for our kids, at least we can give them as much joy now so that they
face these troubles from a place of strength and love.
<<<<<(2)The other response to our ourschooling decision came from an
acquaintance who is in a high management position in business. Her
emphasis was that children like all people need to have expectations
set of them. She feels that unless high expectations are set, people
do not try to do well.>>>>
Try "Punished by Rewards" by Alfie Kohn, and his latest "Unconditional
Parenting". He also has a number of articles at his website that summarize
his ideas. www.alfiekohn.org
Having expectations of others can be a swift path to disappointments and
resentments.
The self chosen self-expectations that our free children devise are probably
higher than any external ones.
The expectations that I have of Jayn are that she will pursue her interests,
express her needs and continue to grow at exactly the right pace for
herself. Her discoveries and development continue to blow me away with her
cleverness and creativity.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.5/18 - Release Date: 6/15/2005
raised, the one that I have thought about the most is the idea that
we are just making things too easy for our son by dropping out of the
education track. (These seems to be a refrain in her general worry
about other aspects of our parenting approach: such as not
circumcizing our son, not restrictng his food, not forcing him to
play sports.) >>>>>
I got the idea that most people consider circumcising a way to make it
*easier* for boys as they grow up - by being the same as other boys around
them and for ease of hygiene (which I understand to be a myth), so it is
surprising to hear not doing that it is "making his life too easy".
I would suspect that your mother will probably come to see that your son is
setting his own goals, and choosing challenges of increasing complexity over
time.
It is tempting to start trying to point out areas where our chosen life
might be harder to follow than a conventional one, especially in the areas
of being different or fitting in, or our kids growing up to be people who
take the harder road of taking responsibility for themselves instead of
being followers.
However this broader idea that we as parents should be trying to make life
difficult for our children because life itself is "not easy" is worth
examining. It is also worth asking other people to examine why they are
saying "life should be hard", to force *them* to really think it over.
It is fairly illogical that *if* life is tough, we should therefore make it
even tougher. I believe that I can trust the economy, the unpredictability
of our neighbors or professional colleagues, the weather, our powerlessness
over other people, the unlucky chance that leaves a nail in my driveway, and
so on, to provide enough challenges in real life without me having to make
up extra troubles. Being out of school will not remove these life
challenges, just the school based ones which are contrived.
I also believe that our homes can and should be a haven from the
tribulations of the world, especially for our children as they learn to cope
with their own development as well as learn about life. I don't have to
break Jayn's finger to give her experience in coping with pain in case she
breaks her arm one day - I would rather help her keep her fingers safe.
I also don't want her to think of her home life as something she will
eventually be able to escape from, which I believe is a prevalent attitude
amongst conventionally schooled and parented children. I have a couple of
little neighbors who, at the ages of 7 and 5, are already trying to escape
over here as often as possible.
But aside from that I believe that the idea that life *should* be hard, that
suffering is ennobling, is erroneous - a mythic paradigm stemming from some
religions, and a jolly good excuse to not help people in poverty or trouble.
I prefer to live with the paradigm that although life sometimes has
challenges, our true selves and our higher nature lie in the pursuit of
happiness. Certainly tragedies occur, people do have real and serious
problems, and hubris makes great drama. However a life of joy is not an
earned reward, but a philosophical choice. And if troubles lie around the
corner for our kids, at least we can give them as much joy now so that they
face these troubles from a place of strength and love.
<<<<<(2)The other response to our ourschooling decision came from an
acquaintance who is in a high management position in business. Her
emphasis was that children like all people need to have expectations
set of them. She feels that unless high expectations are set, people
do not try to do well.>>>>
Try "Punished by Rewards" by Alfie Kohn, and his latest "Unconditional
Parenting". He also has a number of articles at his website that summarize
his ideas. www.alfiekohn.org
Having expectations of others can be a swift path to disappointments and
resentments.
The self chosen self-expectations that our free children devise are probably
higher than any external ones.
The expectations that I have of Jayn are that she will pursue her interests,
express her needs and continue to grow at exactly the right pace for
herself. Her discoveries and development continue to blow me away with her
cleverness and creativity.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.5/18 - Release Date: 6/15/2005
jlh44music
> First, remember they aren't you nor have they had your experiencesbenefits of your research. They certainly aren't the mother of
*your* child. Some of my best understanding about unschooling came
long before I knew there was such a thing. These experiences are a
part of who I am, and when I found out about unschooling, all those
random experiences joined together and made sense to me.>>>>>>
I had the same "aha" momemtn when I found out about unschooling too.
>>>>You are releasing your child from all the boredom, competition,stress, anxiety, and personal sacrifice (you can't eat when you are
hungry, sleep when you are tired, go to the toilet, etc.) that goes
along with school. That makes it HARD to learn. Add to that,
having to read when you want to play, play when you want to read,
do math when you weren't done with science and it is amazing to me
that kids learn in school at all.>>>>>>
This has been my daughter's difficulty in school (interpreted
as "she needs to try/work harder", my interpretation "to fit the
mold" because she's "defective").
> There was a book a couple of years ago (can someone help me?ack) that discussed that the future of business would be the free
agent, not the corporate guy. He compared the homeschooling
community to this new spirit of business......... We need
innovators and people who know how to work for themselves, not
people that know only how to do what they are told.
I'd like to know what this book is too.
> A person who has expectations set for them, will spend their lifestressing over meeting or exceeding these expectations and always
with other people in mind. That is a life lived for others, and
that person's happiness will depend on what someone else thinks of
them. And the title beneath his name might hold more importance
than who he is as a person.>>>
I especially like this.
Leslie,
I always enjoy your posts (I'm keeping this one in my "inspiration"
file). Since I don't post often, I like to remind others of our
sitation. My dd is 12, wanted to try middle school this year, we'll
be homeschooling/unschooling for the first time this fall. We're
BOTH going to have to do a lot of deschooling. I struggle
constantly with the change. I KNOW it's what's right for my
daughter, but I also know it will take a lot of time to get there,
to make such huge changes to our lifestyle. I have always worked
full time, this is the first time I will be home.
Andrea, keep reading, asking questions, and take it one day at a
time. Trust your heart and that you know what is best for your
child and family. Don't worry about what others who don't
understand think. When I started researching homeschooling a little
over 2 years ago, I had never heard of unschooling. I also never
thought I'd be able to homeschool my child. It's amazing how
differently I view that now.
Jann
jlh44music
>> However this broader idea that we as parents should be trying tomake life difficult for our children because life itself is "not
easy" is worth examining. It is also worth asking other people to
examine why they are saying "life should be hard", to force *them*
to really think it over.>>>>>
I've heard this alot, that kids have to learn to adapt to the way
the schools teach because they have to learn to fit in to life later
on. Why?
> It is fairly illogical that *if* life is tough, we shouldtherefore make it even tougher. ...... Being out of school will not
remove these life challenges, just the school based ones which are
contrived.>>>>
I like this thought.
> I also don't want her to think of her home life as something shewill eventually be able to escape from, which I believe is a
prevalent attitude amongst conventionally schooled and parented
children. >>>>>
I see this a lot, and agree I don't want this for my child. My
husband couldn't wait to get out of his house (youngest of 4 boys,
lost his dad when he was 8, overbearing mother).
>>>>However a life of joy is not an earned reward, but aphilosophical choice. And if troubles lie around the corner for our
kids, at least we can give them as much joy now so that they
face these troubles from a place of strength and love.>>>>
Robyn,
I also enjoy your posts, another keeper for my file!
Jann
jlh44music
> I do have expectations of my kids. I expect them to be kind andloving. I expect them to be "rotten" at times. I expect them to find
things to do that set them on fire and I expect them to expect me to
support them in that. I expect them to have periods where all they
want to do is stare at a wall and contemplate the universe.
Nice.
> I expect them to be fully human, not a puppy trained to sit quietlyand respond on cue.>>>>>
Public school....(the puppy part)
Jann
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/18/2005 7:50:40 AM SA Pacific Standard Time,
pinkydog@... writes:
with the kids ,, dont know enough to teach them etc,,its your son,your choice
and your hubby's choice.,, you will come across people who have ''well
meaning advice'',, take what works for you guys and toss the rest.
fail ,,our kids are done a disservice by not being listened to,which is the whole
thing behind unschooling...and homeschooling to some degree,,, MY parents
would say ''well everybody has to go to school,no other choice'' ,, well .taking
kids out of school and unschooling ,, shows there is other choices... what
you do ,should be up to you as parents,but most importantly your child...>>>
june
pinkydog@... writes:
>well, my in laws have basicly the same view,,mixed with she dont do anythign
>
> (1)The first was from (of all people) my mother. Of the concerns she
> raised, the one that I have thought about the most is the idea that
> we are just making things too easy for our son by dropping out of the
> education track. (These seems to be a refrain in her general worry
> about other aspects of our parenting approach: such as not
> circumcizing our son, not restrictng his food, not forcing him to
> play sports.)
>
with the kids ,, dont know enough to teach them etc,,its your son,your choice
and your hubby's choice.,, you will come across people who have ''well
meaning advice'',, take what works for you guys and toss the rest.
> (2)The other response to our ourschooling decision came from anyou can set the expectations,but if the motivation isnt there,, they will
> acquaintance who is in a high management position in business. Her
> emphasis was that children like all people need to have expectations
> set of them. She feels that unless high expectations are set, people
> do not try to do well.
>
fail ,,our kids are done a disservice by not being listened to,which is the whole
thing behind unschooling...and homeschooling to some degree,,, MY parents
would say ''well everybody has to go to school,no other choice'' ,, well .taking
kids out of school and unschooling ,, shows there is other choices... what
you do ,should be up to you as parents,but most importantly your child...>>>
june
> I would like to hear what other people might reply to these concerns[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> as well as any suggestons for articles or books. I think that my
> concern is not just about how to respond to people's criticisms but
> how to address those cultural influences that remain voices inside of
> me.
>
>
[email protected]
Yes! Daniel Pink! Thank you, Heather!
I confess to not reading it, but a couple (one in Home Ed. Mag.) of
interviews with him. I would be interested if anyone has read it.
Leslie in SC, needing a personal fact-checker and research assistant :)
Hi Leslie,
Is this the book you were thinking of?
Free
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0446678791/qid=1119107886/sr=
8-2/ref=pd_csp_2/103-9192923-7557455?v=glance&s=books&n=507846> Agent
Nation: The Future of Working for Yourself by Daniel H. Pink
Heather M
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I confess to not reading it, but a couple (one in Home Ed. Mag.) of
interviews with him. I would be interested if anyone has read it.
Leslie in SC, needing a personal fact-checker and research assistant :)
Hi Leslie,
Is this the book you were thinking of?
Free
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0446678791/qid=1119107886/sr=
8-2/ref=pd_csp_2/103-9192923-7557455?v=glance&s=books&n=507846> Agent
Nation: The Future of Working for Yourself by Daniel H. Pink
Heather M
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather
<I confess to not reading it, but a couple (one in Home Ed. Mag.) of
interviews with him. I would be interested if anyone has read it. >
<<Free Agent Nation: The Future of Working for Yourself by Daniel H. Pink>>
I've read his book & enjoyed it. Especially appropriate for us, since dh
quit the corporate world a few - five? - years ago to work for himself.
Here is his 'School's Out" article from 2001 -
http://reason.com/0110/fe.dp.schools.shtml
heather m
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
interviews with him. I would be interested if anyone has read it. >
<<Free Agent Nation: The Future of Working for Yourself by Daniel H. Pink>>
I've read his book & enjoyed it. Especially appropriate for us, since dh
quit the corporate world a few - five? - years ago to work for himself.
Here is his 'School's Out" article from 2001 -
http://reason.com/0110/fe.dp.schools.shtml
heather m
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
*****My dd is 12, wanted to try middle school this year, we'll
be homeschooling/unschooling for the first time this fall. We're
BOTH going to have to do a lot of deschooling. I struggle
constantly with the change. I KNOW it's what's right for my
daughter, but I also know it will take a lot of time to get there,
to make such huge changes to our lifestyle. I have always worked
full time, this is the first time I will be home.*****
Lots of changes! Go easy on yourself if you are both feeling a little
overwhelmed, any one of those changes is a big deal. Sometimes I think becoming
an unschooler is a bit like converting to a completely different religion
than the one you were raised in. I bet you would have to do such a radical
shift in thinking and keep reminding yourself what you are "supposed" to think!
Have fun, Jann (and Andrea!)
****Leslie,
I always enjoy your posts (I'm keeping this one in my "inspiration"
file). ****
Jann, I am truly honored! Thank you very much. I don't think I've ever
made it into an inspiration file before!
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
be homeschooling/unschooling for the first time this fall. We're
BOTH going to have to do a lot of deschooling. I struggle
constantly with the change. I KNOW it's what's right for my
daughter, but I also know it will take a lot of time to get there,
to make such huge changes to our lifestyle. I have always worked
full time, this is the first time I will be home.*****
Lots of changes! Go easy on yourself if you are both feeling a little
overwhelmed, any one of those changes is a big deal. Sometimes I think becoming
an unschooler is a bit like converting to a completely different religion
than the one you were raised in. I bet you would have to do such a radical
shift in thinking and keep reminding yourself what you are "supposed" to think!
Have fun, Jann (and Andrea!)
****Leslie,
I always enjoy your posts (I'm keeping this one in my "inspiration"
file). ****
Jann, I am truly honored! Thank you very much. I don't think I've ever
made it into an inspiration file before!
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I'm thinking Heather is an excellent choice for research assistant. <g>
Thanks! I just checked my library and they didn't have it (no surprise
there). Maybe I can get them to interloan it.
Hope your hubby is happy out of the corporate world. I worked at Xerox many
years ago and I think there was something new and ridiculously outrageous
that I encountered every day. Blech.
Leslie in SC
In a message dated 6/18/2005 7:17:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
heather@... writes:
interviews with him. I would be interested if anyone has read it. >
<<Free Agent Nation: The Future of Working for Yourself by Daniel H. Pink>>
I've read his book & enjoyed it. Especially appropriate for us, since dh
quit the corporate world a few - five? - years ago to work for himself.
Here is his 'School's Out" article from 2001 -
http://reason.com/0110/fe.dp.schools.shtml
heather m
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks! I just checked my library and they didn't have it (no surprise
there). Maybe I can get them to interloan it.
Hope your hubby is happy out of the corporate world. I worked at Xerox many
years ago and I think there was something new and ridiculously outrageous
that I encountered every day. Blech.
Leslie in SC
In a message dated 6/18/2005 7:17:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
heather@... writes:
interviews with him. I would be interested if anyone has read it. >
<<Free Agent Nation: The Future of Working for Yourself by Daniel H. Pink>>
I've read his book & enjoyed it. Especially appropriate for us, since dh
quit the corporate world a few - five? - years ago to work for himself.
Here is his 'School's Out" article from 2001 -
http://reason.com/0110/fe.dp.schools.shtml
heather m
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather
Hey Leslie,
<<Sometimes I think becoming an unschooler is a bit like converting to a
completely different religion
than the one you were raised in. >>
When I tell the story of how we came to unschooling, this is what I compare
it to. In 2000, the topic of homeschooling our kids had just come up. I
was sure "I" could/would never homeschool (although I was impressed with
those families who did h/sh) because (1) I supported public education - in
theory, (2) I wasn't organized enough, and... I'm sure there were other
reasons at the time.
Then we went to a revival - otherwise known as the "Rethinking Education"
conference in Dallas. LOL! And we - dh & I - were 100 percent converted!
I went in thinking "I could never h/school" and came out saying "we never
want to put our kids in school!"
I recommend making the trek to an unschooling conference <g>!
Heather m
Hoping to make it to live & learn in Oct
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<Sometimes I think becoming an unschooler is a bit like converting to a
completely different religion
than the one you were raised in. >>
When I tell the story of how we came to unschooling, this is what I compare
it to. In 2000, the topic of homeschooling our kids had just come up. I
was sure "I" could/would never homeschool (although I was impressed with
those families who did h/sh) because (1) I supported public education - in
theory, (2) I wasn't organized enough, and... I'm sure there were other
reasons at the time.
Then we went to a revival - otherwise known as the "Rethinking Education"
conference in Dallas. LOL! And we - dh & I - were 100 percent converted!
I went in thinking "I could never h/school" and came out saying "we never
want to put our kids in school!"
I recommend making the trek to an unschooling conference <g>!
Heather m
Hoping to make it to live & learn in Oct
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ruth
Hi Andrea
is the idea that
we are just making things too easy for our son by dropping out of the
education track. (These seems to be a refrain in her general worry
about other aspects of our parenting approach: such as not
circumcizing our son, not restrictng his food, not forcing him to
play sports.)
The education track is what school says it is and for that reason is probably irrelevant to your son and has nothing to do with learning in my opinion. Other issues are your own private business - as his how your child learns - and nothing to do with your mother tbh. My mother had similar concerns to.lol
In response to child need expectations set on them well I can only comment on my own personal family but my eldest son has been unschooled for 4 years and has decided off his own back to apply for a online university place and has just been offered one two years ahead of age time. I have never pressured him this route or pushed or taught him. He did it himself. I think the opposite is true. Setting expectations can cause untold stress and pressure and it is up to the individual child how they want to learn and what.
Ruth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
is the idea that
we are just making things too easy for our son by dropping out of the
education track. (These seems to be a refrain in her general worry
about other aspects of our parenting approach: such as not
circumcizing our son, not restrictng his food, not forcing him to
play sports.)
The education track is what school says it is and for that reason is probably irrelevant to your son and has nothing to do with learning in my opinion. Other issues are your own private business - as his how your child learns - and nothing to do with your mother tbh. My mother had similar concerns to.lol
In response to child need expectations set on them well I can only comment on my own personal family but my eldest son has been unschooled for 4 years and has decided off his own back to apply for a online university place and has just been offered one two years ahead of age time. I have never pressured him this route or pushed or taught him. He did it himself. I think the opposite is true. Setting expectations can cause untold stress and pressure and it is up to the individual child how they want to learn and what.
Ruth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
susan youngquist
> There was a book a couple of years ago (can someone help me?ack) that discussed that the future of business would be the free
agent, not the corporate guy. He compared the homeschooling
community to this new spirit of business......... We need
innovators and people who know how to work for themselves, not
people that know only how to do what they are told.
I'd like to know what this book is too.
Tom Peters, "Reimagine" -- in the book Peters tells how his son turned him on to John Taylor Gatto
---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<< Here is his 'School's Out" article from 2001 -
http://reason.com/0110/fe.dp.schools.shtml >>>
I enjoyed reading this article, despite some assertions about the history of
schooling and legality that may be debatable. *Some* of his info reads like
it came from an HSLDA promo.
I think my favorite line is:
"Freedom isn't a detour from learning. It's the best pathway toward it."
This is especially good to counter the notion that I have heard from some
anti-unschoolers that what we do is "Freedom instead of Education."
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 6/17/2005
http://reason.com/0110/fe.dp.schools.shtml >>>
I enjoyed reading this article, despite some assertions about the history of
schooling and legality that may be debatable. *Some* of his info reads like
it came from an HSLDA promo.
I think my favorite line is:
"Freedom isn't a detour from learning. It's the best pathway toward it."
This is especially good to counter the notion that I have heard from some
anti-unschoolers that what we do is "Freedom instead of Education."
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 6/17/2005
jlh44music
> Lots of changes! Go easy on yourself if you are both feeling alittle overwhelmed, any one of those changes is a big deal.
Sometimes I think becoming an unschooler is a bit like converting to
a completely different religion than the one you were raised in. I
bet you would have to do such a radical shift in thinking and keep
reminding yourself what you are "supposed" to think!
> Have fun, Jann (and Andrea!)Thanks for your support! And, on top of it I'm recovering from foot
surgery a week ago, it's going to be slower than I thought. But
that's OK, I'm off of work for the first time in a very long time,
and will be giving my notice in another week or 2 (as soon as I get
my final pay check), so most of my energy is on that right now, and
the last few days of school (fortunately, all the projects are done
and probably no more homework). I know it will take time to truly
feel we're in a different life style. So now, I'm trying to nap,
heal my foot and destress as much as possible, although it's hard to
have to sit with my foot up (as much reading as I have to do,
because it's on my list of what I want to do, I can't seem to get
into right now). That's OK, there's time!
Jann
jlh44music
> I'd like to know what this book is too.turned him on to John Taylor Gatto>>>>>
>
> Tom Peters, "Reimagine" -- in the book Peters tells how his son
Thanks! It's on my list, never heard of Peters.
Jann
[email protected]
Me too; the support and feedback was helpful. I read a few good articles: the Alfie Kohn piece on How Not to Get Into College. Also his Suppernanny critique in which he lambasts the superficial focus on behavior and behaviorist solutions to parenting.
I also did some thinking about my ongoing sense that it the relationship with one's child that has to be the overarching guide. It's really a rejection of that relationship and of one's child to be more loyal to cultural expect ions and all the anxiety they generate.
I also liked someone's idea that adopting an unschooling philosophy is like changing your religion. I feel in a better spirit to take this on.
This Father's Day highlighted these issues for me. There are my connections to my father a link with the old ways of my upbringing and to my husband with whom who I have the continuing chance to create a new way of life.
Thanks,
Andrea Katin
I also did some thinking about my ongoing sense that it the relationship with one's child that has to be the overarching guide. It's really a rejection of that relationship and of one's child to be more loyal to cultural expect ions and all the anxiety they generate.
I also liked someone's idea that adopting an unschooling philosophy is like changing your religion. I feel in a better spirit to take this on.
This Father's Day highlighted these issues for me. There are my connections to my father a link with the old ways of my upbringing and to my husband with whom who I have the continuing chance to create a new way of life.
Thanks,
Andrea Katin
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], "anisadancer1218"
<pinkydog@j...> wrote:
I guess the first thing that started to change my mind was reading
about all the negative feelings and results of parents and teachers
having expectations about what should be learned when. I can sit back
and think, yes, I remember how bad I felt when I didn't live up to
expectations and how the good I felt was so fragile. I've always been
very dependent on other people's praise, and that has been far from a
healthy thing. Especially when it comes to learning, it's such a great
feeling to learn something because you want to.
expectations you might have about your child going to college, for
example. Over the next few months you'll see him learning. That will
encourage you. Then you'll see more and be more encouraged. It grows
on you slowly.
I was watching my ds (4.5) play a Magic Schoolbus computer game the
other day. It's called "Inside the Earth" and instead of playing one
of the games in it, he was listening to the "reports" about volcanos
and other things. It struck me funny, like why would someone want to
listen to a lesson instead of playing a game? A very schoolish thought
on my part...I choose to learn quite often, why would he be any
different??
--aj
<pinkydog@j...> wrote:
> (2)The other response to our ourschooling decision came from anI used to think that.
> acquaintance who is in a high management position in business. Her
> emphasis was that children like all people need to have expectations
> set of them. She feels that unless high expectations are set, people
> do not try to do well.
I guess the first thing that started to change my mind was reading
about all the negative feelings and results of parents and teachers
having expectations about what should be learned when. I can sit back
and think, yes, I remember how bad I felt when I didn't live up to
expectations and how the good I felt was so fragile. I've always been
very dependent on other people's praise, and that has been far from a
healthy thing. Especially when it comes to learning, it's such a great
feeling to learn something because you want to.
> I think that myof
> concern is not just about how to respond to people's criticisms but
> how to address those cultural influences that remain voices inside
> me.It will come with time. You don't have to let go today about
expectations you might have about your child going to college, for
example. Over the next few months you'll see him learning. That will
encourage you. Then you'll see more and be more encouraged. It grows
on you slowly.
I was watching my ds (4.5) play a Magic Schoolbus computer game the
other day. It's called "Inside the Earth" and instead of playing one
of the games in it, he was listening to the "reports" about volcanos
and other things. It struck me funny, like why would someone want to
listen to a lesson instead of playing a game? A very schoolish thought
on my part...I choose to learn quite often, why would he be any
different??
--aj