help me choose!!
Ren Allen
"So, having said all that, I do worry that I(WE) don't have enough
education to teach/help our kids through their school years. Do any
of
you worry about this? "
Where do you feel your education is lacking? If you believe in self-
education, then you can correct the perceived deficit at any time in
your life, right?:)
With unschooling, it isn't the parent imparting knowledge to the
child, so it isn't how much the parent is "educated" or not that
makes the difference.
What I believe is absolutely essential, is the parents willingness
to learn, to be curious, to get excited about life, to have
interests of their own and open the world to their child(ren).
If you feel your child would benefit from the activities you listed,
then bring them into your home!! If you don't know how to do those
things and they sound interesting, then learn them WITH your
children. That's the wonderful healing power of unschooling...we can
have the childhood of our dreams, it's never too late.
Whenever I've looked at those seemingly wonderful Montessori type
programs, I see the cost and think about how much travelling, how
many supplies etc...we could buy for that fee.
Having the school for free changes that vein of thought! But if you
really think about a 4 or 5 year olds ability to be gone from their
parents, I doubt school can offer anything remotely as valuable as
having Mom nearby.
Think about your child in terms of emotional health. What is more
beneficial? To be "enriched" by strangers, or simply to play in the
comfort of home?
All this "enrichment" is highly overrated in my opinion. Four year
olds need their parents mainly, and an interesting environment at
home.
If your child has books, movies, games, toys and a loving parent, I
don't think anything can beat that.
This is your oldest child, so it might be hard to try and see the
perspective you will have when he's older. They don't need all these
wonderful painting, drawing, music experiences at four. They just
need to have paper, pencils, crayons, CD's and such in their home.
They can learn all of those more formal things at ANY time.
Their life journey can take many twists and turns, it's never too
late for them to develop more of an interest in all those lovely
artistic/musical things that Montessori seems to value.
Trust your child, trust yourself. You may understand how damaging
school can be, but you're still letting that fear send you messages.
Tell it to go away, you're doing just fine thank you.:)
Ren
education to teach/help our kids through their school years. Do any
of
you worry about this? "
Where do you feel your education is lacking? If you believe in self-
education, then you can correct the perceived deficit at any time in
your life, right?:)
With unschooling, it isn't the parent imparting knowledge to the
child, so it isn't how much the parent is "educated" or not that
makes the difference.
What I believe is absolutely essential, is the parents willingness
to learn, to be curious, to get excited about life, to have
interests of their own and open the world to their child(ren).
If you feel your child would benefit from the activities you listed,
then bring them into your home!! If you don't know how to do those
things and they sound interesting, then learn them WITH your
children. That's the wonderful healing power of unschooling...we can
have the childhood of our dreams, it's never too late.
Whenever I've looked at those seemingly wonderful Montessori type
programs, I see the cost and think about how much travelling, how
many supplies etc...we could buy for that fee.
Having the school for free changes that vein of thought! But if you
really think about a 4 or 5 year olds ability to be gone from their
parents, I doubt school can offer anything remotely as valuable as
having Mom nearby.
Think about your child in terms of emotional health. What is more
beneficial? To be "enriched" by strangers, or simply to play in the
comfort of home?
All this "enrichment" is highly overrated in my opinion. Four year
olds need their parents mainly, and an interesting environment at
home.
If your child has books, movies, games, toys and a loving parent, I
don't think anything can beat that.
This is your oldest child, so it might be hard to try and see the
perspective you will have when he's older. They don't need all these
wonderful painting, drawing, music experiences at four. They just
need to have paper, pencils, crayons, CD's and such in their home.
They can learn all of those more formal things at ANY time.
Their life journey can take many twists and turns, it's never too
late for them to develop more of an interest in all those lovely
artistic/musical things that Montessori seems to value.
Trust your child, trust yourself. You may understand how damaging
school can be, but you're still letting that fear send you messages.
Tell it to go away, you're doing just fine thank you.:)
Ren
Pam Sorooshian
On Mar 26, 2005, at 9:18 AM, Ren Allen wrote:
to appeal to your child. Heaven forbid that your son likes to draw cars
or tanks or video game characters. Montessori doesn't particularly
value creativity. There are usually some limited art supplies
available, but in very controlled ways - take ONE paper at a time, ONE
marker at a time, don't mix the paint colors (if you have paint -
Montessori schools often do not).
I think people need to take a more realistic look at some waldorf and
montessori schools and compare them to what they have at home. I
watched my 4 yo sit at a Montessori school and sort socks and then went
home and looked at the unsorted socks in her sock drawer. Huh? I
watched her at school get a piece of paper out and sit at a little
table and draw a picture. I looked at the table at our house and saw a
wide variety of paper styles and lots of different kinds of markers,
crayons, pencils, pens, and paints and watched her tear paper and cut
it into little pieces and use glue and glitter and make a mess and be
truly creative.
The specialized equipment is cute. The "lessons" in how to use it can
be truly obnoxious - have you ever actually watched a Montessori
teacher giving a 3-period lesson? Suppose they want to teach a child
the names of some barnyard animals - they first instruct the children
by telling them "This is a pig. This is a horse." Then they ask, "Which
is the pig? Which is the horse?" Then they ask the child, "What is
this? What is this?" Always the same three steps.
Do you really think that kids at home with their families need this?
They learn by experience, by asking questions, by noticing what other
people called things, by trial and error, and so on. They learn in
THEIR own ways - each unique. Learning is not a "logical progression"
as Montessori schools would like to make out - it happens in fits and
starts, but all the time, and it isn't always observable and it
consists of making connections, thousands of connections, and each
person's brain does this differently.
-pam
> Their life journey can take many twists and turns, it's never tooWaldorf, maybe. If their folksy crafty style of art and music happens
> late for them to develop more of an interest in all those lovely
> artistic/musical things that Montessori seems to value.
to appeal to your child. Heaven forbid that your son likes to draw cars
or tanks or video game characters. Montessori doesn't particularly
value creativity. There are usually some limited art supplies
available, but in very controlled ways - take ONE paper at a time, ONE
marker at a time, don't mix the paint colors (if you have paint -
Montessori schools often do not).
I think people need to take a more realistic look at some waldorf and
montessori schools and compare them to what they have at home. I
watched my 4 yo sit at a Montessori school and sort socks and then went
home and looked at the unsorted socks in her sock drawer. Huh? I
watched her at school get a piece of paper out and sit at a little
table and draw a picture. I looked at the table at our house and saw a
wide variety of paper styles and lots of different kinds of markers,
crayons, pencils, pens, and paints and watched her tear paper and cut
it into little pieces and use glue and glitter and make a mess and be
truly creative.
The specialized equipment is cute. The "lessons" in how to use it can
be truly obnoxious - have you ever actually watched a Montessori
teacher giving a 3-period lesson? Suppose they want to teach a child
the names of some barnyard animals - they first instruct the children
by telling them "This is a pig. This is a horse." Then they ask, "Which
is the pig? Which is the horse?" Then they ask the child, "What is
this? What is this?" Always the same three steps.
Do you really think that kids at home with their families need this?
They learn by experience, by asking questions, by noticing what other
people called things, by trial and error, and so on. They learn in
THEIR own ways - each unique. Learning is not a "logical progression"
as Montessori schools would like to make out - it happens in fits and
starts, but all the time, and it isn't always observable and it
consists of making connections, thousands of connections, and each
person's brain does this differently.
-pam
polykow
I agree that unschooling is way better ( at least for us) than any school but I have to come out and say that the Montessori schools you are all talking about are all wrong and do not depict the true Montessori Philosophy. My mother has study Maria Montessori for many years and all this lesson and structure used in the schools here are bull. Maria rally wanted to just provide the materials and let kids do whatever they pleased to do very much like you would be "strewing" (SP?). No time to finish, NO lessons, No control. Its a shame that people took her philosophy and decided they still had to "control" the kids.
Not saying I would put my kids in school. Maria's study was for kids that where very poor and had no parents around so it was sort of an unschooling class so kids like that had a place to go. She actually started with mentally disable kids.
Kids did whatever they wanted and learned at their own pace and were never told what to do. She actually did not want "teachers" in the group but just someone to be there if the kids had any questions. The groups were also mixed and not separated by age.
I have read someof her books and all I have read about people here that have their kids in Montessori school is a shame.
Alex
to appeal to your child. Heaven forbid that your son likes to draw cars
or tanks or video game characters. Montessori doesn't particularly
value creativity. There are usually some limited art supplies
available, but in very controlled ways - take ONE paper at a time, ONE
marker at a time, don't mix the paint colors (if you have paint -
Montessori schools often do not).
I think people need to take a more realistic look at some waldorf and
montessori schools and compare them to what they have at home. I
watched my 4 yo sit at a Montessori school and sort socks and then went
home and looked at the unsorted socks in her sock drawer. Huh? I
watched her at school get a piece of paper out and sit at a little
table and draw a picture. I looked at the table at our house and saw a
wide variety of paper styles and lots of different kinds of markers,
crayons, pencils, pens, and paints and watched her tear paper and cut
it into little pieces and use glue and glitter and make a mess and be
truly creative.
The specialized equipment is cute. The "lessons" in how to use it can
be truly obnoxious - have you ever actually watched a Montessori
teacher giving a 3-period lesson? Suppose they want to teach a child
the names of some barnyard animals - they first instruct the children
by telling them "This is a pig. This is a horse." Then they ask, "Which
is the pig? Which is the horse?" Then they ask the child, "What is
this? What is this?" Always the same three steps.
Do you really think that kids at home with their families need this?
They learn by experience, by asking questions, by noticing what other
people called things, by trial and error, and so on. They learn in
THEIR own ways - each unique. Learning is not a "logical progression"
as Montessori schools would like to make out - it happens in fits and
starts, but all the time, and it isn't always observable and it
consists of making connections, thousands of connections, and each
person's brain does this differently.
-pam
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Not saying I would put my kids in school. Maria's study was for kids that where very poor and had no parents around so it was sort of an unschooling class so kids like that had a place to go. She actually started with mentally disable kids.
Kids did whatever they wanted and learned at their own pace and were never told what to do. She actually did not want "teachers" in the group but just someone to be there if the kids had any questions. The groups were also mixed and not separated by age.
I have read someof her books and all I have read about people here that have their kids in Montessori school is a shame.
Alex
> Their life journey can take many twists and turns, it's never tooWaldorf, maybe. If their folksy crafty style of art and music happens
> late for them to develop more of an interest in all those lovely
> artistic/musical things that Montessori seems to value.
to appeal to your child. Heaven forbid that your son likes to draw cars
or tanks or video game characters. Montessori doesn't particularly
value creativity. There are usually some limited art supplies
available, but in very controlled ways - take ONE paper at a time, ONE
marker at a time, don't mix the paint colors (if you have paint -
Montessori schools often do not).
I think people need to take a more realistic look at some waldorf and
montessori schools and compare them to what they have at home. I
watched my 4 yo sit at a Montessori school and sort socks and then went
home and looked at the unsorted socks in her sock drawer. Huh? I
watched her at school get a piece of paper out and sit at a little
table and draw a picture. I looked at the table at our house and saw a
wide variety of paper styles and lots of different kinds of markers,
crayons, pencils, pens, and paints and watched her tear paper and cut
it into little pieces and use glue and glitter and make a mess and be
truly creative.
The specialized equipment is cute. The "lessons" in how to use it can
be truly obnoxious - have you ever actually watched a Montessori
teacher giving a 3-period lesson? Suppose they want to teach a child
the names of some barnyard animals - they first instruct the children
by telling them "This is a pig. This is a horse." Then they ask, "Which
is the pig? Which is the horse?" Then they ask the child, "What is
this? What is this?" Always the same three steps.
Do you really think that kids at home with their families need this?
They learn by experience, by asking questions, by noticing what other
people called things, by trial and error, and so on. They learn in
THEIR own ways - each unique. Learning is not a "logical progression"
as Montessori schools would like to make out - it happens in fits and
starts, but all the time, and it isn't always observable and it
consists of making connections, thousands of connections, and each
person's brain does this differently.
-pam
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
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a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 28, 2005, at 10:37 AM, polykow wrote:
If I'm remembering correctly, her son (maybe) took over the schools
when she died and he's responsible for the shift in philosophy.
Joyce
> My mother has study Maria Montessori for many years and all thisYou're right. Maria sounded very much like an unschooler :-)
> lesson and structure used in the schools here are bull.
If I'm remembering correctly, her son (maybe) took over the schools
when she died and he's responsible for the shift in philosophy.
Joyce
Pam Sorooshian
On Mar 28, 2005, at 7:37 AM, polykow wrote:
These ARE the currently-existing real Montessori schools that I'm
talking about. The Montessori schools I'm talking about ARE run by the
same people who run the Montessori Western Teacher Training Program -
the people who run them are Joy and Charles Turner (except Charles
passed away 2 years ago). These programs are accredited by the
Montessori Accreditation Council for Teacher Education [MACTE]. Last I
knew, Joy Turner was editor of Montessori Life, the American Montessori
Society's journal. They know Montessori.
I know all about other schools that just use some Montessori equipment
and call themselves Montessori, but that is not what I'm talking about
at all.
Please tell me which parts of my description are inaccurate portrayals
of the Montessori Method - they don't use the "Three-Period Lesson" to
teach? They encourage fantasy play with the pink tower blocks? There
are many "right ways" to do things? Self-correcting doesn't mean that
the beans spill when the child moves them with a spoon from one bowl to
another?
Kids in PRESCHOOL Montessori schools DO get free choice from the
available activities. At the beginning of a school year there will be
fewer activities available, because they have to be introduced to them
with the three-period lesson before the kids can be free to choose
them, but once the are available, the kids can work with whatever
materials they choose for as long as they choose. But look at the
activities - they are all very "logically" constructed to lead kids to
work with them in certain ways to teach them certain specific things.
That's why they need lessons on how to use them BEFORE they're allowed
to "work" with them (they don't use the word, "play").
The elementary schools are different, though. They have a curriculum
and the kids have to do it. They give them a lot of leeway in choosing
when they do it - what order they do it and they can spend a day on
math and another day on science, for example, but they don't get to
choose not to do it at all.
Somebody's mother's interpretation of what Maria Montessori really
meant isn't of use to someone thinking of putting their kid into a real
Montessori school. They need to know and think about what the schools
are really like.
-pam
> I agree that unschooling is way better ( at least for us) than anyPeople always say that when you criticize the Montessori approach.
> school but I have to come out and say that the Montessori schools you
> are all talking about are all wrong and do not depict the true
> Montessori Philosophy.
These ARE the currently-existing real Montessori schools that I'm
talking about. The Montessori schools I'm talking about ARE run by the
same people who run the Montessori Western Teacher Training Program -
the people who run them are Joy and Charles Turner (except Charles
passed away 2 years ago). These programs are accredited by the
Montessori Accreditation Council for Teacher Education [MACTE]. Last I
knew, Joy Turner was editor of Montessori Life, the American Montessori
Society's journal. They know Montessori.
I know all about other schools that just use some Montessori equipment
and call themselves Montessori, but that is not what I'm talking about
at all.
Please tell me which parts of my description are inaccurate portrayals
of the Montessori Method - they don't use the "Three-Period Lesson" to
teach? They encourage fantasy play with the pink tower blocks? There
are many "right ways" to do things? Self-correcting doesn't mean that
the beans spill when the child moves them with a spoon from one bowl to
another?
Kids in PRESCHOOL Montessori schools DO get free choice from the
available activities. At the beginning of a school year there will be
fewer activities available, because they have to be introduced to them
with the three-period lesson before the kids can be free to choose
them, but once the are available, the kids can work with whatever
materials they choose for as long as they choose. But look at the
activities - they are all very "logically" constructed to lead kids to
work with them in certain ways to teach them certain specific things.
That's why they need lessons on how to use them BEFORE they're allowed
to "work" with them (they don't use the word, "play").
The elementary schools are different, though. They have a curriculum
and the kids have to do it. They give them a lot of leeway in choosing
when they do it - what order they do it and they can spend a day on
math and another day on science, for example, but they don't get to
choose not to do it at all.
Somebody's mother's interpretation of what Maria Montessori really
meant isn't of use to someone thinking of putting their kid into a real
Montessori school. They need to know and think about what the schools
are really like.
-pam
scrapgal
> Kids in PRESCHOOL Montessori schools DO get free choice from thebe
> available activities. At the beginning of a school year there will
> fewer activities available, because they have to be introduced tothem
> with the three-period lesson before the kids can be free to choosekids to
> them, but once the are available, the kids can work with whatever
> materials they choose for as long as they choose. But look at the
> activities - they are all very "logically" constructed to lead
> work with them in certain ways to teach them certain specificthings.
> That's why they need lessons on how to use them BEFORE they'reallowed
> to "work" with them (they don't use the word, "play").This really got to me when my oldest dd was in a Montesorri school.
She is very hands on, let me figure it out on my own type of child
and she became frustrated when she had to sit and be told (directed)
how to use something. She couldn't just go and touch and feel and
explore it and learn by trial and error. Each station in the room
had a direct and orderly way in which it was to be used. No
variation on a them. Step 1, step 2, step 3 in that order always.
If a child skipped to step 3, he was directed back to step 1 to
start again.
I think most children learn better when they work it out
themselves. Some will ask for direction and want to know the steps
while others want to know what the end product is and then be left
alone to figure out how to get from point A to point B and still
other children just want the tools and to be left alone to explore
it and manipulate it to its fullest extent. They are all valid
forms of learning, but when you are in school, even the best of
schools, rarely are you given the freedom to choose how you wish to
learn. You are taught using one formula (usually that which the
teacher learns easiest through or has been taught to teach.)
One thing that I hear often from my mother is, "Think how much
better your children would be in school!" In her world if they are
so brilliant and wonderful without school then *certainly* they
would be even more brilliant and more wonderful in school. In
actuality, I think that they would be less brilliant and less
wonderful.
Do I have all the knowledge needed to teach my children everything
that they need to know? No. I'll freely admit it. What I do have
is the ability to provide for them the resources and opportunities
to learn the things that they want. I now about a thimble full of
information on ancient Egypt, yet my 12 yo can talk circles around
me on the subject. Everything from the religion to kings and
successions and how pyramids were built and what copic jars were
for. When she said she wanted to learn about Egypt, we went to the
library, checked out a few dozen (probably hundred by now) books on
Egypt, found cool and interesting websites about Egypt and drew
reams of pages of hieroglyphs. (And I still know squat about Egypt
LOL!) So one doesn't need to know everything about everything in
order to properly provide for their children.
Michelle
polykow
Pam
I do agree with you.Montessori schools suck and schools in general suck. I was saying that Maria Montessori's philosophy is NOT what they do in Montessori schools. I have read many of her books and talked with my mom about it and I think Maria Montessori would be surprised about the what they do in schools here. She says "teachers" are not in class to teach anything!! She says kids learn a lot more when doing real work. Just like with do with our kids. We bake with them , we do our garden with them. All that using real tools and not toys. I will say it again that Montessori schools are a bunch of b**l ! Maria Montessori was a lot more about unschooling than most people know, specially the trained Montessori teachers!
ALEX
I do agree with you.Montessori schools suck and schools in general suck. I was saying that Maria Montessori's philosophy is NOT what they do in Montessori schools. I have read many of her books and talked with my mom about it and I think Maria Montessori would be surprised about the what they do in schools here. She says "teachers" are not in class to teach anything!! She says kids learn a lot more when doing real work. Just like with do with our kids. We bake with them , we do our garden with them. All that using real tools and not toys. I will say it again that Montessori schools are a bunch of b**l ! Maria Montessori was a lot more about unschooling than most people know, specially the trained Montessori teachers!
ALEX
On Mar 28, 2005, at 7:37 AM, polykow wrote:
> I agree that unschooling is way better ( at least for us) than any
> school but I have to come out and say that the Montessori schools you
> are all talking about are all wrong and do not depict the true
> Montessori Philosophy.
People always say that when you criticize the Montessori approach.
These ARE the currently-existing real Montessori schools that I'm
talking about. The Montessori schools I'm talking about ARE run by the
same people who run the Montessori Western Teacher Training Program -
the people who run them are Joy and Charles Turner (except Charles
passed away 2 years ago). These programs are accredited by the
Montessori Accreditation Council for Teacher Education [MACTE]. Last I
knew, Joy Turner was editor of Montessori Life, the American Montessori
Society's journal. They know Montessori.
I know all about other schools that just use some Montessori equipment
and call themselves Montessori, but that is not what I'm talking about
at all.
Please tell me which parts of my description are inaccurate portrayals
of the Montessori Method - they don't use the "Three-Period Lesson" to
teach? They encourage fantasy play with the pink tower blocks? There
are many "right ways" to do things? Self-correcting doesn't mean that
the beans spill when the child moves them with a spoon from one bowl to
another?
Kids in PRESCHOOL Montessori schools DO get free choice from the
available activities. At the beginning of a school year there will be
fewer activities available, because they have to be introduced to them
with the three-period lesson before the kids can be free to choose
them, but once the are available, the kids can work with whatever
materials they choose for as long as they choose. But look at the
activities - they are all very "logically" constructed to lead kids to
work with them in certain ways to teach them certain specific things.
That's why they need lessons on how to use them BEFORE they're allowed
to "work" with them (they don't use the word, "play").
The elementary schools are different, though. They have a curriculum
and the kids have to do it. They give them a lot of leeway in choosing
when they do it - what order they do it and they can spend a day on
math and another day on science, for example, but they don't get to
choose not to do it at all.
Somebody's mother's interpretation of what Maria Montessori really
meant isn't of use to someone thinking of putting their kid into a real
Montessori school. They need to know and think about what the schools
are really like.
-pam
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Mar 28, 2005, at 3:03 PM, polykow wrote:
But ---
Some of our kids spend most of their time playing, not working. And
they learn from that play.
My kids spent hours and hours and hours and hours and even MORE hours
in fantasy/pretend play. They played with stuffed animals and with
dress-ups and with pretend foods/cash register/toy stove, etc. And
dolls and dollhouses. I'm not talking about just when they were 3 to 5,
but my 14 year old STILL plays with all her little toy animals and her
fake foods and toy cars. My 17 yo only stopped playing pretend with her
stuffed animals about a year ago.
Our kids have the luxury of extended childhoods - lucky lucky kids who
are able to take advantage of it. I feel like mine really got the MOST
from being children.
I'm not explaining it well, but I just fall back on this: "Childhood is
not a dress rehearsal for adulthood. It is a stage of life that is just
as valid as any other."
-pam
> She says kids learn a lot more when doing real work. Just like with doAs opposed to make-work that schools demand, yes.
> with our kids.
But ---
Some of our kids spend most of their time playing, not working. And
they learn from that play.
My kids spent hours and hours and hours and hours and even MORE hours
in fantasy/pretend play. They played with stuffed animals and with
dress-ups and with pretend foods/cash register/toy stove, etc. And
dolls and dollhouses. I'm not talking about just when they were 3 to 5,
but my 14 year old STILL plays with all her little toy animals and her
fake foods and toy cars. My 17 yo only stopped playing pretend with her
stuffed animals about a year ago.
Our kids have the luxury of extended childhoods - lucky lucky kids who
are able to take advantage of it. I feel like mine really got the MOST
from being children.
I'm not explaining it well, but I just fall back on this: "Childhood is
not a dress rehearsal for adulthood. It is a stage of life that is just
as valid as any other."
-pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/28/2005 7:41:41 PM Canada Central Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
indeed,,,,,>>JUNE
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
>i totally aggree children who are allowed to be ,,,children are soo blessed
>
> Some of our kids spend most of their time playing, not working. And
> they learn from that play.
> My kids spent hours and hours and hours and hours and even MORE hours
> in fantasy/pretend play. They played with stuffed animals and with
> dress-ups and with pretend foods/cash register/toy stove, etc. And
> dolls and dollhouses. I'm not talking about just when they were 3 to 5,
> but my 14 year old STILL plays with all her little toy animals and her
> fake foods and toy cars. My 17 yo only stopped playing pretend with her
> stuffed animals about a year ago.
>
> Our kids have the luxury of extended childhoods - lucky lucky kids who
> are able to take advantage of it. I feel like mine really got the MOST
> from being children.
>
>
indeed,,,,,>>JUNE
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
polykow
Of course.. one thing does not exclude the other. Kids like to play and learn and they learn from ALL situations. Its just the "educators" in the schools that think they need to "teach" and "educate" in one way or another.. And this is why we are unschoolers!
Alex
!!
Alex
!!
On Mar 28, 2005, at 3:03 PM, polykow wrote:
> She says kids learn a lot more when doing real work. Just like with do
> with our kids.
As opposed to make-work that schools demand, yes.
But ---
Some of our kids spend most of their time playing, not working. And
they learn from that play.
My kids spent hours and hours and hours and hours and even MORE hours
in fantasy/pretend play. They played with stuffed animals and with
dress-ups and with pretend foods/cash register/toy stove, etc. And
dolls and dollhouses. I'm not talking about just when they were 3 to 5,
but my 14 year old STILL plays with all her little toy animals and her
fake foods and toy cars. My 17 yo only stopped playing pretend with her
stuffed animals about a year ago.
Our kids have the luxury of extended childhoods - lucky lucky kids who
are able to take advantage of it. I feel like mine really got the MOST
from being children.
I'm not explaining it well, but I just fall back on this: "Childhood is
not a dress rehearsal for adulthood. It is a stage of life that is just
as valid as any other."
-pam
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<<If I'm remembering correctly, her son (maybe) took over the schools
when she died and he's responsible for the shift in philosophy.>>>>
Maybe that is because he was almost immediately given over to the care of
other folk than his mother, including a wet nurse, and sent off to boarding
school at an early age, and not accepted by his father, who married another
woman in a betrayal Maria, according to what I have read. He probably got a
good dose of structure, discipline and enforced independence from those
experiences.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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when she died and he's responsible for the shift in philosophy.>>>>
Maybe that is because he was almost immediately given over to the care of
other folk than his mother, including a wet nurse, and sent off to boarding
school at an early age, and not accepted by his father, who married another
woman in a betrayal Maria, according to what I have read. He probably got a
good dose of structure, discipline and enforced independence from those
experiences.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.2 - Release Date: 3/25/2005
Angela S
<<<And
dolls and dollhouses. I'm not talking about just when they were 3 to 5,
but my 14 year old STILL plays with all her little toy animals and her
fake foods and toy cars. My 17 yo only stopped playing pretend with her
stuffed animals about a year ago.>>>
My kids are 8 and 10 and are still big into pretend play. I've noticed that
a couple kids they used to play with, ages 10 and 12, who used to pretend
play with them all the time, don't pretend play anymore. (at least not when
I am around) They both seem to want to grow up early (be seen as cool) and
they seem to mimic the teenagers they know. My kids tend to seek out kids
who still enjoy pretend play and sometimes they even pull other older kids
into their pretend play. (because they are having so much fun!) We were at
the barn the other day and a 12.5 year old girl joined in their pretend
horsey play. At first she must have been a little embarrassed because she
commented that she was playing with the *little* kids but after a few
minutes, they were all playing together really well and just having a great
time and the age difference didn't matter. The next time she came to the
barn she brought a friend. She was excited to play horses with my girls
again. She asked her friend if she wanted to play and at first the friend
declined. It wasn't long though before they were all playing horses and
having a great time. (I took it upon myself to leave the alone so they'd be
more comfortable playing.) Clearly, they felt it was a babyish thing to do
at first, but they also clearly enjoyed it once they joined in. I think
it's sad that kids feel the need to be grownup so soon that they give up
pretend play before they are ready so people won't think they are babyish.
I am sure that personality also plays a part in when children give up
pretend play, but it seems to me that many times they give it up because
they perceive it as babyish and they don't want to look uncool.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dolls and dollhouses. I'm not talking about just when they were 3 to 5,
but my 14 year old STILL plays with all her little toy animals and her
fake foods and toy cars. My 17 yo only stopped playing pretend with her
stuffed animals about a year ago.>>>
My kids are 8 and 10 and are still big into pretend play. I've noticed that
a couple kids they used to play with, ages 10 and 12, who used to pretend
play with them all the time, don't pretend play anymore. (at least not when
I am around) They both seem to want to grow up early (be seen as cool) and
they seem to mimic the teenagers they know. My kids tend to seek out kids
who still enjoy pretend play and sometimes they even pull other older kids
into their pretend play. (because they are having so much fun!) We were at
the barn the other day and a 12.5 year old girl joined in their pretend
horsey play. At first she must have been a little embarrassed because she
commented that she was playing with the *little* kids but after a few
minutes, they were all playing together really well and just having a great
time and the age difference didn't matter. The next time she came to the
barn she brought a friend. She was excited to play horses with my girls
again. She asked her friend if she wanted to play and at first the friend
declined. It wasn't long though before they were all playing horses and
having a great time. (I took it upon myself to leave the alone so they'd be
more comfortable playing.) Clearly, they felt it was a babyish thing to do
at first, but they also clearly enjoyed it once they joined in. I think
it's sad that kids feel the need to be grownup so soon that they give up
pretend play before they are ready so people won't think they are babyish.
I am sure that personality also plays a part in when children give up
pretend play, but it seems to me that many times they give it up because
they perceive it as babyish and they don't want to look uncool.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sandrewmama
This reminded me of when I got in trouble for skipping school in 8th grade.
My friend and I hid until the school bus had gone and her mom had left for
work then we snuck down into her basement and played with our baby dolls!
Darnit if we weren't quickly discovered when the school called our folks and
my friend's mother's boyfriend came over and found us.
Both my kids, 14 & 7, play pretend play every day. The 14 year-old uses an
ongoing imaginary role-playing game with the 7 year-old when he babysits!
Gotta love imaginary play!
Chris in Iowa
on 3/29/05 11:47 AM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:
My friend and I hid until the school bus had gone and her mom had left for
work then we snuck down into her basement and played with our baby dolls!
Darnit if we weren't quickly discovered when the school called our folks and
my friend's mother's boyfriend came over and found us.
Both my kids, 14 & 7, play pretend play every day. The 14 year-old uses an
ongoing imaginary role-playing game with the 7 year-old when he babysits!
Gotta love imaginary play!
Chris in Iowa
on 3/29/05 11:47 AM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:
> I think
> it's sad that kids feel the need to be grownup so soon that they give up
> pretend play before they are ready so people won't think they are babyish.
> I am sure that personality also plays a part in when children give up
> pretend play, but it seems to me that many times they give it up because
> they perceive it as babyish and they don't want to look uncool.
scrapgal
--- In [email protected], sandrewmama
<sandrewmama@m...> wrote:
(Society for Creative Anachronism) are so popular. It's a way for
older kids (and adults) to have that imaginary play without feeling
like they are still playing with dolls and building blocks. I've
seen teens that have really gotten into the SCA with elaborate
costumes and enriched personae. They turn into little authenticity
mavins at very early ages. But they get engrossed in it and bloom
in it. They could talk forever on heraldry, weaponry, medieval
history, naming practices, costuming, cooking, jewelry, alchemy, and
medieval careers. Then their parents (if they aren't in the SCA or
if they don't understand the value of what their child has learned)
will tell them they are too into it. Sad.
Michelle
<sandrewmama@m...> wrote:
> Both my kids, 14 & 7, play pretend play every day. The 14 year-old uses an
> ongoing imaginary role-playing game with the 7 year-old when hebabysits!
>I bet this is why PRG's like Dungeons and Dragons and even the SCA
> Gotta love imaginary play!
(Society for Creative Anachronism) are so popular. It's a way for
older kids (and adults) to have that imaginary play without feeling
like they are still playing with dolls and building blocks. I've
seen teens that have really gotten into the SCA with elaborate
costumes and enriched personae. They turn into little authenticity
mavins at very early ages. But they get engrossed in it and bloom
in it. They could talk forever on heraldry, weaponry, medieval
history, naming practices, costuming, cooking, jewelry, alchemy, and
medieval careers. Then their parents (if they aren't in the SCA or
if they don't understand the value of what their child has learned)
will tell them they are too into it. Sad.
Michelle
rbccelkoby
I am trying to unschool my now 8 y/o daughter the best I understand how. I still have this underlying niggeling anxiety that I try my best to ignore. My daughter is enjoying "homeschooling" very much. She loves to play with her baby dolls alot. If I did not run out of energy she would play all day and even forgo eating sometimes. If I say lets stop for a rest and do something else such as eating, or going out or playing a game etc., she gets very upset. She will sometimes tell me that I hardly played when we'd been playing for hours.
I mostly enjoy playing with her except after a while I do need a break. It's hard pretending to be a "mom" and pretend to do the things that I have to do in real life, for hours. My brain just needs to be more stimulated.
Also, when we play, I pretty much follow her lead. I was wondering if it is ok to try and incorporate a bit more complex situations into the play. For instance, when we play that she is a teenager who works as a checkout person, is it all right to actually ask how much things cost and have her add them together? She played that once or twice but started being upset about adding the amounts together. She'll tell me not to bother with that and just make up pretend numbers or say we are not playing like that. It's like she'd rather just go thru the motions in general but no headwork.. I feel that this may be an opportunity to incorporate some more thinking into the play she already likes to do, seeing as we don't have many opportunities to work with numbers. In general, she mentally shuts down and refuses to hear any discussion or even a comment about numbers.
Is it normal for a kid to want to play so much pretend? We've been doing this for years already. She does not tire of it. I know kids get some benefit from playing and are ultimately learning something that they need and that it may not always be recognizable to us, as parents. But,shouldn't she have worked out any issues or figured out what she needs to by now? I know its a weird question but this playing is almost an obssesion with her. If it were up to her we'd play all day and never see daylight(of course it can't be played anywhere else but at home, believe me I've tried)and forgo eating.
I'm thinking maybe its something I'm just not seeing. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Thank you so much.
Rebecca
I mostly enjoy playing with her except after a while I do need a break. It's hard pretending to be a "mom" and pretend to do the things that I have to do in real life, for hours. My brain just needs to be more stimulated.
Also, when we play, I pretty much follow her lead. I was wondering if it is ok to try and incorporate a bit more complex situations into the play. For instance, when we play that she is a teenager who works as a checkout person, is it all right to actually ask how much things cost and have her add them together? She played that once or twice but started being upset about adding the amounts together. She'll tell me not to bother with that and just make up pretend numbers or say we are not playing like that. It's like she'd rather just go thru the motions in general but no headwork.. I feel that this may be an opportunity to incorporate some more thinking into the play she already likes to do, seeing as we don't have many opportunities to work with numbers. In general, she mentally shuts down and refuses to hear any discussion or even a comment about numbers.
Is it normal for a kid to want to play so much pretend? We've been doing this for years already. She does not tire of it. I know kids get some benefit from playing and are ultimately learning something that they need and that it may not always be recognizable to us, as parents. But,shouldn't she have worked out any issues or figured out what she needs to by now? I know its a weird question but this playing is almost an obssesion with her. If it were up to her we'd play all day and never see daylight(of course it can't be played anywhere else but at home, believe me I've tried)and forgo eating.
I'm thinking maybe its something I'm just not seeing. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Thank you so much.
Rebecca
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 23, 2009, at 8:47 AM, rbccelkoby wrote:
world exists, can't choose to participate unless we run it through
their lives.
But if it upsets her, rather than making it an "us" thing, let her
know you need to do something. Let her know you'll be back at a
specific time and stick to that. You may try listening to your tone.
It could be you've got a pleading tone as though asking her to agree
with you. If you want to go throw in a load of laundry, say it the
way you'd say you need to go to the bathroom.
Rather than taking a break for food, do you know about monkey platters:
http://sandradodd.com/monkeyplatters/
(Click on the link for explanations.)
Rather than interrupting her play to do something, have you made
plans for the next day?
How about asking on a local homeschooling list for kids who have a
similar bent?
Or how about an older child who would like to be paid as a mother's
helper and play with her for a couple hours a week?
People respond to what the world feels like to them, not to the
perception someone else thinks they should have. (Though they can
learn to fake it or decide their feelings are wrong to please someone
else.)
house at least livable, cleanish clothes and dishes.
Some things are in the attitude we face them with. Yes, it's hard to
do what you're doing. Focusing on how hard it is makes it harder.
Rather than trying to pull away from her to meet your needs, find a
time to carve out for yourself. Early in the morning. Or an evening a
week take a class or go to the bookstore to read. Or while a mother's
helper is entertaining her.
If circumstances limit the possibilities, see this as a season -- a
really long season! -- in your life. Puberty will be coming and she
will change.
husband decided you needed some math exercise, would it be okay for
him to ask what the measurements would be if you doubled the recipes?
Would you welcome the suggestion?
Constructing stories, sifting through possibilities (which *is*
math), and working through relationships is a lot of headwork.
Writing novels is hard work. Just because you can't see the work --
especially since it seems effortless to her -- it doesn't mean her
brain isn't going a mile a minute sifting and weighing possibilities.
questions from her. Cooking. Measuring.
Have you seen:
http://sandradodd.com/math/luz
There are a lot of social type video games that people here probably
know of. Animal Crossing is great (and involves saving and paying for
things). Harvest Moon.
Focus not on pulling her away from what she's doing. See your role as
adding to her life. She gets to choose, though.
I'm not being snarky! The more you push, the more she'll associate
numbers with your pushing and the feelings that rouses in her. So
when she encounters them naturally in her life, she'll be more likely
to pull away and avoid them. It's what schooled kids do.
My daughter pretty much lived and breathed Pokemon and the creatures
she made up from them for .... 8 years maybe? At 18 she's still
pretty much doing the same thing just with made up stories about 80's
rock stars with others she's met online through Deviantart. :-)
is comparing a child to their vision of what other kids are like and
not facing the child herself.
Maybe don't look at it as learning if you see learning as finite,
like a chunk of knowledge contained in a textbook. Look at it as
exploring. She's exploring relationships, culture and social
interactions. That's pretty much an unlimited field!
partnership. Maybe if you could give some specific examples of what
happens when you try incorporating something else into her life goes,
others might be able to see a dynamic that you're missing.
Joyce
> If I did not run out of energy she would play all day and evenWhich is a pretty strong indication that this is her passion!
> forgo eating sometimes.
> If I say lets stop for a rest and do something else such as eating,Offering other ideas is good. :-) Kids can't know the rest of the
> or going out or playing a game etc., she gets very upset.
>
world exists, can't choose to participate unless we run it through
their lives.
But if it upsets her, rather than making it an "us" thing, let her
know you need to do something. Let her know you'll be back at a
specific time and stick to that. You may try listening to your tone.
It could be you've got a pleading tone as though asking her to agree
with you. If you want to go throw in a load of laundry, say it the
way you'd say you need to go to the bathroom.
Rather than taking a break for food, do you know about monkey platters:
http://sandradodd.com/monkeyplatters/
(Click on the link for explanations.)
Rather than interrupting her play to do something, have you made
plans for the next day?
How about asking on a local homeschooling list for kids who have a
similar bent?
Or how about an older child who would like to be paid as a mother's
helper and play with her for a couple hours a week?
> She will sometimes tell me that I hardly played when we'd beenAnd she's letting you know that hours feels like moments to her :-)
> playing for hours.
>
People respond to what the world feels like to them, not to the
perception someone else thinks they should have. (Though they can
learn to fake it or decide their feelings are wrong to please someone
else.)
> I mostly enjoy playing with her except after a while I do need aThere are some things that are realities like eating, keeping the
> break. It's hard pretending to be a "mom" and pretend to do the
> things that I have to do in real life, for hours. My brain just
> needs to be more stimulated.
>
house at least livable, cleanish clothes and dishes.
Some things are in the attitude we face them with. Yes, it's hard to
do what you're doing. Focusing on how hard it is makes it harder.
Rather than trying to pull away from her to meet your needs, find a
time to carve out for yourself. Early in the morning. Or an evening a
week take a class or go to the bookstore to read. Or while a mother's
helper is entertaining her.
If circumstances limit the possibilities, see this as a season -- a
really long season! -- in your life. Puberty will be coming and she
will change.
> For instance, when we play that she is a teenager who works as aIf you were involved in learning a new style of cuisine and your
> checkout person, is it all right to actually ask how much things
> cost and have her add them together?
>
husband decided you needed some math exercise, would it be okay for
him to ask what the measurements would be if you doubled the recipes?
Would you welcome the suggestion?
> It's like she'd rather just go thru the motions in general but noShe is doing headwork! It's just not the kind you're looking for.
> headwork.
>
Constructing stories, sifting through possibilities (which *is*
math), and working through relationships is a lot of headwork.
Writing novels is hard work. Just because you can't see the work --
especially since it seems effortless to her -- it doesn't mean her
brain isn't going a mile a minute sifting and weighing possibilities.
> I feel that this may be an opportunity to incorporate some moreVideo games. Allowance. Comparisons while shopping. How long until
> thinking into the play she already likes to do, seeing as we don't
> have many opportunities to work with numbers.
>
questions from her. Cooking. Measuring.
Have you seen:
http://sandradodd.com/math/luz
There are a lot of social type video games that people here probably
know of. Animal Crossing is great (and involves saving and paying for
things). Harvest Moon.
Focus not on pulling her away from what she's doing. See your role as
adding to her life. She gets to choose, though.
> In general, she mentally shuts down and refuses to hear anyIf you want her to dislike numbers and math, keep pushing them.
> discussion or even a comment about numbers.
>
I'm not being snarky! The more you push, the more she'll associate
numbers with your pushing and the feelings that rouses in her. So
when she encounters them naturally in her life, she'll be more likely
to pull away and avoid them. It's what schooled kids do.
> Is it normal for a kid to want to play so much pretend? We've beenNot abnormal. For some kids, some passions last for years and years.
> doing this for years already. She does not tire of it.
>
My daughter pretty much lived and breathed Pokemon and the creatures
she made up from them for .... 8 years maybe? At 18 she's still
pretty much doing the same thing just with made up stories about 80's
rock stars with others she's met online through Deviantart. :-)
> I know kids get some benefit from playing and are ultimatelyWhenever "shouldn't she" questions come up, it's a good sign a parent
> learning something that they need and that it may not always be
> recognizable to us, as parents. But,shouldn't she have worked out
> any issues or figured out what she needs to by now?
>
is comparing a child to their vision of what other kids are like and
not facing the child herself.
Maybe don't look at it as learning if you see learning as finite,
like a chunk of knowledge contained in a textbook. Look at it as
exploring. She's exploring relationships, culture and social
interactions. That's pretty much an unlimited field!
> If it were up to her we'd play all day and never see daylight(ofRather than her way or your way, somewhere in the middle is
> course it can't be played anywhere else but at home, believe me
> I've tried)and forgo eating.
>
partnership. Maybe if you could give some specific examples of what
happens when you try incorporating something else into her life goes,
others might be able to see a dynamic that you're missing.
Joyce
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "rbccelkoby" <rbccelkoby@...> wrote:
Bring food where the play is - or vice versa. Joyce gave you the link on monkey platters. You could also suggest moving the play to wherever you need to get some work done. Bring toys into the kitchen and play while you get food ready. Offer to play something that lets you get the laundry done at the same time. Make it as much of a win-win as you can by saying "I want to keep playing, but I also want to do xyz, how can we do both?" You might also start the day with a plan: "I want to do these things today, how can we do that and play at the same time?"
Only if its fun for her. Otherwise you're interrupting something she's very busy doing - learning! Her learning isn't going to look like you expect. Its going to look like play.
When I read a book, I generally skim through the first time, just to get the plot in my head and all the characters sorted out. That's it. It took me years not to feel bad about that, because school insists that you start pulling books apart from the first page. Is this foreshadowing? Is that a metaphor? I like looking for all that literary hoo-haa the second and third and fortieth times through (I'm a chronic re-reader). You can think of the way your dd is learning along those lines, if you like. She wants the whole picture, first, and will gradually add details as she's ready for them. They may not be the details you expect! As Joyce pointed out, she may be far more into parsing out the details of a social interaction than the numbers, and that's okay. She's learning what's important to her right now.
For that matter, if she's wanting to learn about mathematics globally then throwing numbers at her is only confusing the issue, in her mind. She's not ready for that. She's still internalizing what numbers and patterns Do, what they're For. She's learning the big concepts and will plug numbers into that later. Don't scare her away from those numbers!
Passions can look obsessive, sometimes. Play is how children learn. My 8yo plays pretty much all day long, although she's more of an introvert than Ray was at the same age (whew! once was enough! I really do sympathize!). What Kinds of things does you dd play? Maybe we can help you see the variety of things she's learning about. You said baby dolls and a cashier game, those are pretty different avenues of learning, what else does she like?
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>> Is it normal for a kid to want to play so much pretend?Absolutely! The bigger issue seems to be that she's wanting the play with you, and you're getting tired. Will she play with anyone else? Are there kids or even other adults you can arrange play dates with? That was something we did with Ray when he was younger and soooooo social. He was active, too, so we looked for active young people who could play at 90mph!
> I mostly enjoy playing with her except after a while I do need a break.I totally understand! Have you talked with her about this? I think Ray was six or seven when we started talking about the needs of introverts vs extraverts. He really didn't know that Everyone in the whole world didn't love to socialize Allllll the time! Why would he think that? He loved to socialize, after all. So we explained about George and I needing quiet time and time by ourselves, let him know that it was about us, not him, something we needed so that we could be better at the social stuff. He offered us some time in the mornings, when he'd play in his room by himself until a certain time, then we'd have breakfast together and the day's social marathon would begin.
>>If I say lets stop for a rest and do something else such as eating, or going out or playing a game etc., she gets very upset.**************
Bring food where the play is - or vice versa. Joyce gave you the link on monkey platters. You could also suggest moving the play to wherever you need to get some work done. Bring toys into the kitchen and play while you get food ready. Offer to play something that lets you get the laundry done at the same time. Make it as much of a win-win as you can by saying "I want to keep playing, but I also want to do xyz, how can we do both?" You might also start the day with a plan: "I want to do these things today, how can we do that and play at the same time?"
> Also, when we play, I pretty much follow her lead. I was wondering if it is ok to try and incorporate a bit more complex situations into the play.****************
Only if its fun for her. Otherwise you're interrupting something she's very busy doing - learning! Her learning isn't going to look like you expect. Its going to look like play.
>> It's like she'd rather just go thru the motions in general but no headwork..Some kids learn to speak by getting an overview of language but not bothering with words for years. Some kids learn to write by "pretend writing" for years, picking up the overview of what writing looks like before ever troubling with words or spelling. Do you see where I'm going with this? Going through the motions in a general way Is a learning strategy. It just doesn't look like you thought it would.
When I read a book, I generally skim through the first time, just to get the plot in my head and all the characters sorted out. That's it. It took me years not to feel bad about that, because school insists that you start pulling books apart from the first page. Is this foreshadowing? Is that a metaphor? I like looking for all that literary hoo-haa the second and third and fortieth times through (I'm a chronic re-reader). You can think of the way your dd is learning along those lines, if you like. She wants the whole picture, first, and will gradually add details as she's ready for them. They may not be the details you expect! As Joyce pointed out, she may be far more into parsing out the details of a social interaction than the numbers, and that's okay. She's learning what's important to her right now.
For that matter, if she's wanting to learn about mathematics globally then throwing numbers at her is only confusing the issue, in her mind. She's not ready for that. She's still internalizing what numbers and patterns Do, what they're For. She's learning the big concepts and will plug numbers into that later. Don't scare her away from those numbers!
>>shouldn't she have worked out any issues or figured out what she needs to by now? I know its a weird question but this playing is almost an obssesion with her.*********************
Passions can look obsessive, sometimes. Play is how children learn. My 8yo plays pretty much all day long, although she's more of an introvert than Ray was at the same age (whew! once was enough! I really do sympathize!). What Kinds of things does you dd play? Maybe we can help you see the variety of things she's learning about. You said baby dolls and a cashier game, those are pretty different avenues of learning, what else does she like?
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
Monica Van Stelton
Hi Rebecca,
I have to start saying that she is VERY lucky to have a mom like you. I have a very good mother but I don't have any memories of her playing with me at all...I remember playing cards when I was older.
May be your daughter would like some theatre/ acting classes?
Have a friend come over or let her play by herself...She is old enough to do that. And you can take a break if you need to. It is important that everybody's needs are cover including your needs.
Good luck!
Monica
I have to start saying that she is VERY lucky to have a mom like you. I have a very good mother but I don't have any memories of her playing with me at all...I remember playing cards when I was older.
May be your daughter would like some theatre/ acting classes?
Have a friend come over or let her play by herself...She is old enough to do that. And you can take a break if you need to. It is important that everybody's needs are cover including your needs.
Good luck!
Monica
--- On Fri, 10/23/09, rbccelkoby <rbccelkoby@...> wrote:
From: rbccelkoby <rbccelkoby@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] pretend play
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, October 23, 2009, 5:47 AM
I am trying to unschool my now 8 y/o daughter the best I understand how. I still have this underlying niggeling anxiety that I try my best to ignore. My daughter is enjoying "homeschooling" very much. She loves to play with her baby dolls alot. If I did not run out of energy she would play all day and even forgo eating sometimes. If I say lets stop for a rest and do something else such as eating, or going out or playing a game etc., she gets very upset. She will sometimes tell me that I hardly played when we'd been playing for hours.
I mostly enjoy playing with her except after a while I do need a break. It's hard pretending to be a "mom" and pretend to do the things that I have to do in real life, for hours. My brain just needs to be more stimulated.
Also, when we play, I pretty much follow her lead. I was wondering if it is ok to try and incorporate a bit more complex situations into the play. For instance, when we play that she is a teenager who works as a checkout person, is it all right to actually ask how much things cost and have her add them together? She played that once or twice but started being upset about adding the amounts together. She'll tell me not to bother with that and just make up pretend numbers or say we are not playing like that. It's like she'd rather just go thru the motions in general but no headwork.. I feel that this may be an opportunity to incorporate some more thinking into the play she already likes to do, seeing as we don't have many opportunities to work with numbers. In general, she mentally shuts down and refuses to hear any discussion or even a comment about numbers.
Is it normal for a kid to want to play so much pretend? We've been doing this for years already. She does not tire of it. I know kids get some benefit from playing and are ultimately learning something that they need and that it may not always be recognizable to us, as parents. But,shouldn' t she have worked out any issues or figured out what she needs to by now? I know its a weird question but this playing is almost an obssesion with her. If it were up to her we'd play all day and never see daylight(of course it can't be played anywhere else but at home, believe me I've tried)and forgo eating.
I'm thinking maybe its something I'm just not seeing. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Thank you so much.
Rebecca
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
JJ
If this will help you believe that you are doing wonderful things for your child by playing wit her to her heart's content:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-serious-need-for-play
Scientific American Mind - January 28, 2009
The Serious Need for Play
Free, imaginative play is crucial for normal social, emotional and
cognitive development. It makes us better adjusted, smarter and less
stressed
By Melinda Wenner
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-serious-need-for-play
Scientific American Mind - January 28, 2009
The Serious Need for Play
Free, imaginative play is crucial for normal social, emotional and
cognitive development. It makes us better adjusted, smarter and less
stressed
By Melinda Wenner
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 23, 2009, at 8:47 AM, rbccelkoby wrote:
>
> > If I did not run out of energy she would play all day and even
> > forgo eating sometimes.
>
> Which is a pretty strong indication that this is her passion!
>
Rebecca
Thank you Meredith and Joyce,
You've given me much insight. It helps me feel better to know that even if it is difficult on my part, that this is exactly what she needs at this moment in her life. It makes it easier to just let go and go with the flow and know that it is the right thing.
There is a couple of things that maybe I did not explain too well. My dd is a very determined girl and sometimes she'll make up "rules" as to how we play that are a bit restrictive to me but she knows it will get her my full attention. (I think). For instance, I've suggested many times that we continue playing while I make dinner. I could very easily "talk" for the dolls while doing that. I just wouldn't be able to move them around. Most of the time they just sit and "talk"anyway. Or, I'll tell her, when we have to run an errand, that we can continue playing in the car or anywhere else as we do what we need to. We'll just take them along. That works occassionally, however, mostly its "no, we'll play when we get back". Then its "how much longer", "can we go home now and play dolls" Or she'll bargain with me and say " ok, we'll go out. But you can only go one place and afterwards you have to play with me for 6 hours."
Also, you guys make it sound like its so easy to go for a bathroom break! If I just get up and go she'll drill me as to what I'll be doing in there and will literally be upset if its anything more than a short pee. Forget telling her matter of factly about having to throw in a basket of laundry. I get an attitude from her if I fold laundry and tell her "let's continue playing, I can still talk for the babies", or whatever we'd be playing at the moment.
She makes rules, such as, the playing can only take place on the living room carpet or dining room carpet and occasionally the steps is allowed. It cannot be on any couches or in the kitchen and I cannot be doing anything that even looks like a distraction. Like sometimes I'll try thumbing thru a magazine or book while my "kids" are sleeping. That is not allowed. ( I'm laughing as I write this, as it seems funny now) I think she makes these rules so that I pay the strictest attention and that I remain focused and serious and not fall asleep. I may tell her my back hurts from sitting on the floor so much (the truth). So then she'll allow me to sit on a folding chair, but no couch.
I'm laughing now as I talk about this craziness but I do wonder if she is not manipulating the situation. Does anyone else have it this crazy?
Its not like she doesn't have anything else she likes to do. We have plenty of games and manipulative toys and puzzles and of course the computer, and she loves art. I have many different art stuff like crayons, markers, acrylic paint, water color, etc and she loves doing it. What always amazes me is that when I am busyy with housework she prefers TV over anything else. She will only do those things if I am doing them with her. But then we come back to the same thing. If I am with her she'd rather play pretend. That's another thing that frustrates me is that if I'm busy she will watch TV to the point where she is bored of it but will continue watching if I'm not done rather than picking up another activity for a change.
When she has a friend over she'll refuse to play pretend with any of them. She may color,paint or do arts and crafts, play ball sometimes dress up but with no dolls. Everything but dolls. When I ask her why not, especially when the other kids would love to play with her dolls, she just says its not the same as playing with me. I think maybe its because she has such an attachment to some of her dolls that they are like her kids and the other kid will turn it into something else. Then again, I could be wrong.
Sorry about rambling so, but I guess I never sorted all this out. You guys had asked me what kinds of play does she do when we pretend. We'll its mostly babies. She keeps getting pregnant, having a big stomach and then giving "birth" and of course she is the best mommy ever. Nurses them, diapers, takes care when they are sick... She even went so far as to get nursing books out of the library and so now she knows how to nurse twins as well! Sometimes its one baby, other times it could be as many as 8, octuplets! and of course she takes care of shopping, cleaning, cooking etc.
Sometimes she'll switch to being a big sister and we go thru her growing into a teenager year by year, then she'll get her drivers license, job, and/or college... we even have a wedding ceremony, and then of course there are the babies! That's basically the theme nowadays. Occasionally it will vary with the jobs or things she does as she "grows" in the game. Like she might be learning ballet, or she's a great artist from Paris, or a checkout person, or a doctor, vet, various therapists, librarian or rock star,etc. And let me tell you she goes all out. She tries to dress the part as authentically as possible. (I do have a mountain of dress up clothes along with make up. When she doesn't find what shes looking for there, there is always my closet that she raids..)
I know some day I'll look back at these days with fond memories. I do already see how her pretend play has evolved, and that's one reason why I continue it. I know that's where she got her strong thinking skills. She is also able to speak very well. It always amazes me how she's able to hold a conversation with adults and its only afterwards that they tell me that they had to remind themselves that this is a 7/8 year old. She's able to offer advice and suggestions and reassurances that are wise beyond her years. I attribute that to the "conversations" we have when we play. We resolve "issues" or talk about many things when I come to "visit"etc
You are right when you say that it may not always look like what we want learning to look like, but it is there. Thank you for reminding me. Its nice to have a bit of encouragement and to be set back on track when we get a bit lost and our vision gets a bit out of focus.
Rebecca
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You've given me much insight. It helps me feel better to know that even if it is difficult on my part, that this is exactly what she needs at this moment in her life. It makes it easier to just let go and go with the flow and know that it is the right thing.
There is a couple of things that maybe I did not explain too well. My dd is a very determined girl and sometimes she'll make up "rules" as to how we play that are a bit restrictive to me but she knows it will get her my full attention. (I think). For instance, I've suggested many times that we continue playing while I make dinner. I could very easily "talk" for the dolls while doing that. I just wouldn't be able to move them around. Most of the time they just sit and "talk"anyway. Or, I'll tell her, when we have to run an errand, that we can continue playing in the car or anywhere else as we do what we need to. We'll just take them along. That works occassionally, however, mostly its "no, we'll play when we get back". Then its "how much longer", "can we go home now and play dolls" Or she'll bargain with me and say " ok, we'll go out. But you can only go one place and afterwards you have to play with me for 6 hours."
Also, you guys make it sound like its so easy to go for a bathroom break! If I just get up and go she'll drill me as to what I'll be doing in there and will literally be upset if its anything more than a short pee. Forget telling her matter of factly about having to throw in a basket of laundry. I get an attitude from her if I fold laundry and tell her "let's continue playing, I can still talk for the babies", or whatever we'd be playing at the moment.
She makes rules, such as, the playing can only take place on the living room carpet or dining room carpet and occasionally the steps is allowed. It cannot be on any couches or in the kitchen and I cannot be doing anything that even looks like a distraction. Like sometimes I'll try thumbing thru a magazine or book while my "kids" are sleeping. That is not allowed. ( I'm laughing as I write this, as it seems funny now) I think she makes these rules so that I pay the strictest attention and that I remain focused and serious and not fall asleep. I may tell her my back hurts from sitting on the floor so much (the truth). So then she'll allow me to sit on a folding chair, but no couch.
I'm laughing now as I talk about this craziness but I do wonder if she is not manipulating the situation. Does anyone else have it this crazy?
Its not like she doesn't have anything else she likes to do. We have plenty of games and manipulative toys and puzzles and of course the computer, and she loves art. I have many different art stuff like crayons, markers, acrylic paint, water color, etc and she loves doing it. What always amazes me is that when I am busyy with housework she prefers TV over anything else. She will only do those things if I am doing them with her. But then we come back to the same thing. If I am with her she'd rather play pretend. That's another thing that frustrates me is that if I'm busy she will watch TV to the point where she is bored of it but will continue watching if I'm not done rather than picking up another activity for a change.
When she has a friend over she'll refuse to play pretend with any of them. She may color,paint or do arts and crafts, play ball sometimes dress up but with no dolls. Everything but dolls. When I ask her why not, especially when the other kids would love to play with her dolls, she just says its not the same as playing with me. I think maybe its because she has such an attachment to some of her dolls that they are like her kids and the other kid will turn it into something else. Then again, I could be wrong.
Sorry about rambling so, but I guess I never sorted all this out. You guys had asked me what kinds of play does she do when we pretend. We'll its mostly babies. She keeps getting pregnant, having a big stomach and then giving "birth" and of course she is the best mommy ever. Nurses them, diapers, takes care when they are sick... She even went so far as to get nursing books out of the library and so now she knows how to nurse twins as well! Sometimes its one baby, other times it could be as many as 8, octuplets! and of course she takes care of shopping, cleaning, cooking etc.
Sometimes she'll switch to being a big sister and we go thru her growing into a teenager year by year, then she'll get her drivers license, job, and/or college... we even have a wedding ceremony, and then of course there are the babies! That's basically the theme nowadays. Occasionally it will vary with the jobs or things she does as she "grows" in the game. Like she might be learning ballet, or she's a great artist from Paris, or a checkout person, or a doctor, vet, various therapists, librarian or rock star,etc. And let me tell you she goes all out. She tries to dress the part as authentically as possible. (I do have a mountain of dress up clothes along with make up. When she doesn't find what shes looking for there, there is always my closet that she raids..)
I know some day I'll look back at these days with fond memories. I do already see how her pretend play has evolved, and that's one reason why I continue it. I know that's where she got her strong thinking skills. She is also able to speak very well. It always amazes me how she's able to hold a conversation with adults and its only afterwards that they tell me that they had to remind themselves that this is a 7/8 year old. She's able to offer advice and suggestions and reassurances that are wise beyond her years. I attribute that to the "conversations" we have when we play. We resolve "issues" or talk about many things when I come to "visit"etc
You are right when you say that it may not always look like what we want learning to look like, but it is there. Thank you for reminding me. Its nice to have a bit of encouragement and to be set back on track when we get a bit lost and our vision gets a bit out of focus.
Rebecca
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rebecca
Thank you so much for the article, Melinda,
This is just the article I need to keep me going! It certainly boosted my energy!
Rebecca
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This is just the article I need to keep me going! It certainly boosted my energy!
Rebecca
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
rebecca, have you read "playful parenting" by larry cohen?
you might get some good ideas in there for ways to work in, in a "therapeutic" way, any issues you think she might be struggling with, that are inspiring her rules, control, and seeming anxiety around your attention and the pretend games.
warmly, lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
you might get some good ideas in there for ways to work in, in a "therapeutic" way, any issues you think she might be struggling with, that are inspiring her rules, control, and seeming anxiety around your attention and the pretend games.
warmly, lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenna Robertson
Another reason she may not want to play w/ friends is that they won't give her the same absolute control of the situation that you do. While some children will give the other child control, most want to have say in the situation and work out the plot of their dramatic play together. This can lead to conflict, but learning to resolve that conflict is part of learning how relationships work.
Is there a dad in the picture? If so, what kind of relationship/what activities do they share?
:)
Jenna
"If I had influence with the good fairy who is supposed to preside over the christening of all children, I would ask that her gift to each child in the world be a sense of wonder so indestructible that it would last throughout life."
- Rachel Carson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Is there a dad in the picture? If so, what kind of relationship/what activities do they share?
:)
Jenna
"If I had influence with the good fairy who is supposed to preside over the christening of all children, I would ask that her gift to each child in the world be a sense of wonder so indestructible that it would last throughout life."
- Rachel Carson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], Rebecca <rbccelkoby@...> wrote:
Thanks for clarifying this - it sounds like she has a pretty big need for attention. That can be really challenging! I know!
How are you dealing with her "attitude" as you call it? Are you walking on tiptoes trying not to set her off? Sometimes it can be better, in terms of being less stressful all around, to learn to be okay with the knowledge that, whatever you do, there are going to be rough parts to the day, maybe even meltdowns. A lot of tension can go into trying to avoid those kinds of situations, and yet that very tension can make it harder to communicate openly, to comiserate with an unhappy child even when you're the trigger for that unhappiness.
It sounds like maybe you've given some unclear messages to her about what your boundaries are, and she's taking advantage of that. Its good to stretch one's boundaries with young children, and kids with bigger needs, but its not good to become a doormat in the process! If you're okay with sitting in the folding chair, that's one thing, but if you need to be on the couch to be comfortable, then that's Not really okay. Your boundaries matter.
If you've been downplaying your own needs to avoid meltdowns, its good to notice that and be clearer about what your needs and boundaries are. The goal in unschooling isn't to create an environment where a child is never unhappy, never has a meltdown. In fact, part of what unschooling can offer children is a safe environment in which to learn about dealing with big, negative emotions. Unlike conventional parenting, we're not setting kids up to fail and experience those negative emotions, but we're also not trying to get rid of disappointment and frustration entirely - for one thing its not possible! And for another, its not healthy. Negative emotions are a part of life, and kids can learn to have better tools for dealing with those feelings by having a sympathetic parent supporting them during those times.
Anyway, you haven't given much in the way of detail in that area so I may be going off on a complete tangent to your issues - if so, nevermind!
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>> Also, you guys make it sound like its so easy to go for a bathroom break! If I just get up and go she'll drill me as to what I'll be doing in there and will literally be upset if its anything more than a short pee. Forget telling her matter of factly about having to throw in a basket of laundry. I get an attitude from her if I fold laundry and tell her "let's continue playing, I can still talk for the babies", or whatever we'd be playing at the moment.***********************
Thanks for clarifying this - it sounds like she has a pretty big need for attention. That can be really challenging! I know!
How are you dealing with her "attitude" as you call it? Are you walking on tiptoes trying not to set her off? Sometimes it can be better, in terms of being less stressful all around, to learn to be okay with the knowledge that, whatever you do, there are going to be rough parts to the day, maybe even meltdowns. A lot of tension can go into trying to avoid those kinds of situations, and yet that very tension can make it harder to communicate openly, to comiserate with an unhappy child even when you're the trigger for that unhappiness.
>I may tell her my back hurts from sitting on the floor so much (the truth). So then she'll allow me to sit on a folding chair, but no couch.***************
> I'm laughing now as I talk about this craziness but I do wonder if she is not manipulating the situation. Does anyone else have it this crazy?
It sounds like maybe you've given some unclear messages to her about what your boundaries are, and she's taking advantage of that. Its good to stretch one's boundaries with young children, and kids with bigger needs, but its not good to become a doormat in the process! If you're okay with sitting in the folding chair, that's one thing, but if you need to be on the couch to be comfortable, then that's Not really okay. Your boundaries matter.
If you've been downplaying your own needs to avoid meltdowns, its good to notice that and be clearer about what your needs and boundaries are. The goal in unschooling isn't to create an environment where a child is never unhappy, never has a meltdown. In fact, part of what unschooling can offer children is a safe environment in which to learn about dealing with big, negative emotions. Unlike conventional parenting, we're not setting kids up to fail and experience those negative emotions, but we're also not trying to get rid of disappointment and frustration entirely - for one thing its not possible! And for another, its not healthy. Negative emotions are a part of life, and kids can learn to have better tools for dealing with those feelings by having a sympathetic parent supporting them during those times.
Anyway, you haven't given much in the way of detail in that area so I may be going off on a complete tangent to your issues - if so, nevermind!
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 24, 2009, at 11:53 PM, Monica Van Stelton wrote:
that. A great deal of relationship damage can be avoided by not
deciding a child should be doing something by a certain age.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> She is old enough to do that.More accurately, she's old enough to do that when she's ready to do
that. A great deal of relationship damage can be avoided by not
deciding a child should be doing something by a certain age.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
Rebecca, have you read:
Raising Your Spirited Child: A Guide for Parents Whose Child Is More
Intense, Sensitive, Perceptive, Persistent, Energetic
http://tinyurl.com/2wvdyg
I'm just glancing at email now and will read more thoroughly in the
morning but thought that might be useful.
Joyce
Raising Your Spirited Child: A Guide for Parents Whose Child Is More
Intense, Sensitive, Perceptive, Persistent, Energetic
http://tinyurl.com/2wvdyg
I'm just glancing at email now and will read more thoroughly in the
morning but thought that might be useful.
Joyce
Monica Van Stelton
Hi Joyce,More accurately, she's old enough to do that when she's ready to do
that. A great deal of relationship damage can be avoided by not
deciding a child should be doing something by a certain age.
You are totally right and I never thought it that way since people always tell you what we are supposed to be doing or ready at certain age . I guess I meant safety wise, she won't put anything in her mouth and choke. I was thinking about when I was 8 and I had 2 brothers to play with especially the younger one...we pretend play a lot...I I didn't have him I don't know what would I've done...
I'm sorry...I was just trying to help. Maybe since I don't have a daughter that age I shouldn't have said anything...
Sorry,
Monica
that. A great deal of relationship damage can be avoided by not
deciding a child should be doing something by a certain age.
You are totally right and I never thought it that way since people always tell you what we are supposed to be doing or ready at certain age . I guess I meant safety wise, she won't put anything in her mouth and choke. I was thinking about when I was 8 and I had 2 brothers to play with especially the younger one...we pretend play a lot...I I didn't have him I don't know what would I've done...
I'm sorry...I was just trying to help. Maybe since I don't have a daughter that age I shouldn't have said anything...
Sorry,
Monica
--- On Sun, 10/25/09, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] pretend play
To: [email protected]
Date: Sunday, October 25, 2009, 5:20 PM
On Oct 24, 2009, at 11:53 PM, Monica Van Stelton wrote:
> She is old enough to do that.
More accurately, she's old enough to do that when she's ready to do
that. A great deal of relationship damage can be avoided by not
deciding a child should be doing something by a certain age.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Manipulating the situation? Sounds like she's running things.
"No" is a valuable word sometimes.
No, I can't do that. I don't want to do that. I can/want to do this. Etc.
Our newest family member is our 3-yo nephew. He would spend the entire day outside on most days. Which is fine by me. But I cannot and don't want to do the same. He wants me to be with him every minute.
Until I say "no, I need a break" or it's too hot or I have to do X. He may be unhappy with that decision for a moment but he goes on to the next activity.
And I am really right there. I am just on this side of the doorway while he's on the other.
But I'm getting a break and taking care of other things. And cooling down -- a factor around here.
Nance
"No" is a valuable word sometimes.
No, I can't do that. I don't want to do that. I can/want to do this. Etc.
Our newest family member is our 3-yo nephew. He would spend the entire day outside on most days. Which is fine by me. But I cannot and don't want to do the same. He wants me to be with him every minute.
Until I say "no, I need a break" or it's too hot or I have to do X. He may be unhappy with that decision for a moment but he goes on to the next activity.
And I am really right there. I am just on this side of the doorway while he's on the other.
But I'm getting a break and taking care of other things. And cooling down -- a factor around here.
Nance
--- In [email protected], Rebecca <rbccelkoby@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Thank you Meredith and Joyce,
>
> You've given me much insight. It helps me feel better to know that even if it is difficult on my part, that this is exactly what she needs at this moment in her life. It makes it easier to just let go and go with the flow and know that it is the right thing.
>
> There is a couple of things that maybe I did not explain too well. My dd is a very determined girl and sometimes she'll make up "rules" as to how we play that are a bit restrictive to me but she knows it will get her my full attention. (I think). For instance, I've suggested many times that we continue playing while I make dinner. I could very easily "talk" for the dolls while doing that. I just wouldn't be able to move them around. Most of the time they just sit and "talk"anyway. Or, I'll tell her, when we have to run an errand, that we can continue playing in the car or anywhere else as we do what we need to. We'll just take them along. That works occassionally, however, mostly its "no, we'll play when we get back". Then its "how much longer", "can we go home now and play dolls" Or she'll bargain with me and say " ok, we'll go out. But you can only go one place and afterwards you have to play with me for 6 hours."
>
> Also, you guys make it sound like its so easy to go for a bathroom break! If I just get up and go she'll drill me as to what I'll be doing in there and will literally be upset if its anything more than a short pee. Forget telling her matter of factly about having to throw in a basket of laundry. I get an attitude from her if I fold laundry and tell her "let's continue playing, I can still talk for the babies", or whatever we'd be playing at the moment.
>
> She makes rules, such as, the playing can only take place on the living room carpet or dining room carpet and occasionally the steps is allowed. It cannot be on any couches or in the kitchen and I cannot be doing anything that even looks like a distraction. Like sometimes I'll try thumbing thru a magazine or book while my "kids" are sleeping. That is not allowed. ( I'm laughing as I write this, as it seems funny now) I think she makes these rules so that I pay the strictest attention and that I remain focused and serious and not fall asleep. I may tell her my back hurts from sitting on the floor so much (the truth). So then she'll allow me to sit on a folding chair, but no couch.
>
> I'm laughing now as I talk about this craziness but I do wonder if she is not manipulating the situation. Does anyone else have it this crazy?
>
> Its not like she doesn't have anything else she likes to do. We have plenty of games and manipulative toys and puzzles and of course the computer, and she loves art. I have many different art stuff like crayons, markers, acrylic paint, water color, etc and she loves doing it. What always amazes me is that when I am busyy with housework she prefers TV over anything else. She will only do those things if I am doing them with her. But then we come back to the same thing. If I am with her she'd rather play pretend. That's another thing that frustrates me is that if I'm busy she will watch TV to the point where she is bored of it but will continue watching if I'm not done rather than picking up another activity for a change.
>
> When she has a friend over she'll refuse to play pretend with any of them. She may color,paint or do arts and crafts, play ball sometimes dress up but with no dolls. Everything but dolls. When I ask her why not, especially when the other kids would love to play with her dolls, she just says its not the same as playing with me. I think maybe its because she has such an attachment to some of her dolls that they are like her kids and the other kid will turn it into something else. Then again, I could be wrong.
>
>
> Sorry about rambling so, but I guess I never sorted all this out. You guys had asked me what kinds of play does she do when we pretend. We'll its mostly babies. She keeps getting pregnant, having a big stomach and then giving "birth" and of course she is the best mommy ever. Nurses them, diapers, takes care when they are sick... She even went so far as to get nursing books out of the library and so now she knows how to nurse twins as well! Sometimes its one baby, other times it could be as many as 8, octuplets! and of course she takes care of shopping, cleaning, cooking etc.
>
> Sometimes she'll switch to being a big sister and we go thru her growing into a teenager year by year, then she'll get her drivers license, job, and/or college... we even have a wedding ceremony, and then of course there are the babies! That's basically the theme nowadays. Occasionally it will vary with the jobs or things she does as she "grows" in the game. Like she might be learning ballet, or she's a great artist from Paris, or a checkout person, or a doctor, vet, various therapists, librarian or rock star,etc. And let me tell you she goes all out. She tries to dress the part as authentically as possible. (I do have a mountain of dress up clothes along with make up. When she doesn't find what shes looking for there, there is always my closet that she raids..)
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> I know some day I'll look back at these days with fond memories. I do already see how her pretend play has evolved, and that's one reason why I continue it. I know that's where she got her strong thinking skills. She is also able to speak very well. It always amazes me how she's able to hold a conversation with adults and its only afterwards that they tell me that they had to remind themselves that this is a 7/8 year old. She's able to offer advice and suggestions and reassurances that are wise beyond her years. I attribute that to the "conversations" we have when we play. We resolve "issues" or talk about many things when I come to "visit"etc
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> You are right when you say that it may not always look like what we want learning to look like, but it is there. Thank you for reminding me. Its nice to have a bit of encouragement and to be set back on track when we get a bit lost and our vision gets a bit out of focus.
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> Rebecca
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 26, 2009, at 6:42 AM, marbleface@... wrote:
to kids without implying parents should never say no.
But "No" is also the word of conventional parenting. For parents who
are mostly familiar with conventional parenting "I don't want to"
isn't a reliable guide for building relationships on when to say
"No." Even "I can't" isn't a great guide because people tend to hang
onto familiar ways of doing things and have old scripts running in
the heads on why something isn't possible. That's what makes the
lists valuable since people can run a situation past objective eyes
and get some fresh approaches.
Joyce
> "No" is a valuable word sometimes.Yes it is. And it's unfortunate it's hard to describe how to say yes
to kids without implying parents should never say no.
But "No" is also the word of conventional parenting. For parents who
are mostly familiar with conventional parenting "I don't want to"
isn't a reliable guide for building relationships on when to say
"No." Even "I can't" isn't a great guide because people tend to hang
onto familiar ways of doing things and have old scripts running in
the heads on why something isn't possible. That's what makes the
lists valuable since people can run a situation past objective eyes
and get some fresh approaches.
Joyce
gruvystarchild
~~Also, you guys make it sound like its so easy to go for a bathroom break! If I just get up and go she'll drill me as to what I'll be doing in there and will literally be upset if its anything more than a short pee. ~~
Why would you let anyone decide when/how you go to the bathroom!! That's beyond manipulation and into YOU not expressing personal boundaries! "I need to go pee now" stated clearly and expressed fully is GOOD. You're not doing her any favors if she decides how you should sit, when you should go pee etc...I don't decide those things for my children and they don't decide for ME.
State YOUR preferences. If you're in the bathroom and she has access to you, then there's no good reason you shouldn't do what you need to do! If my child was not happy about me going to the bathroom I would have no problem saying "You'll have to wait, *I* need to go to the bathroom!"
Being clear in your own preferences is healthy. She needs to see that modeled even if it's hard sometimes.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Why would you let anyone decide when/how you go to the bathroom!! That's beyond manipulation and into YOU not expressing personal boundaries! "I need to go pee now" stated clearly and expressed fully is GOOD. You're not doing her any favors if she decides how you should sit, when you should go pee etc...I don't decide those things for my children and they don't decide for ME.
State YOUR preferences. If you're in the bathroom and she has access to you, then there's no good reason you shouldn't do what you need to do! If my child was not happy about me going to the bathroom I would have no problem saying "You'll have to wait, *I* need to go to the bathroom!"
Being clear in your own preferences is healthy. She needs to see that modeled even if it's hard sometimes.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com