structure?????
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Maria Dorian <mariadorian@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 03:57:56 -0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Intro and structure
Well said, Judy!
Maria
<<<<<
Well, not exactly.
This is a list for those looking to make the leap to unschooling.
This doesn't even come close to helping others understand how unschooling works.
First of all, the mom who responded doesn't have a child over age five.
So, she really isn't technically an unschooler. Her only "school age" child is in
kindergarten.
She's also assuming the worst of her children from the get-go.
She's still controlling what they do. She's assuming that they will not
chose healthful foods or sleep when they are tired or wake when they are rested
or ever turn off the tv.
Well, let's look at her points:
-=-=-=-Perhaps I am seeing this issue only from my experience with my own children.
My children are 5 and under. Their birthdays are in April. Lauren (2 yo)
gets incredibly cranky by dinnertime if I don't make her take a nap. Moira
(5 yo) is quite happy to stay up until 1 am, and often does when we have our
friends over every other weekend for table top gaming. I am not yet
unschooling and Moira is in kindergarten, so she has to be up in time to get
on the bus, which means she has to go to bed by a certain time every night
to get enough sleep. I do let them lay in bed reading (or looking at the
pictures) for as long as they like every night. Usually they are all asleep
within an hour. On weekends I am far more lax. They get to stay up later
and they can get up whenever they feel like, but Lauren is predictably up
between 6 and 6:30 every morning.-=-=-=-=-
Children are NOT unschooling. So sleep patterns are school-determined. NOT natural.
-=-=-=-=-My girls could (and have) convince(d) anyone that I starve them within a
half hour of eating a huge meal. I feel strongly that family meals are an
important opportunity for parents to model good manners and for everyone in
the family to connect and socialize, so eating meals together is a must for
me. -=-=-=-=-
Have you asked your children what *they* think?
Why do you think they aren't full after a huge meal? Maybe because YOU are
telling them when they should be full or hungry?
Samll children have small stomachs. They don't NEED huge meals!
You might want to listen to them a bit more.
-=-=-=- Snacks are far more casual and can be eaten within a broad timeframe
(not within an hour of dinner so that they don't take one bite and say they
are full), and can be eaten pretty much anywhere except upstairs in their
bedrooms. I do regulate what they can eat because I feel strongly about
good nutrition and if left on their own, they will see nothing wrong with
eating junk food all day.-=-=-=-
Sandra has pages of "If I let" quotes from moms over the years: Take a look:
www.SandraDodd.com/unschooling/ifilet
It's really important to be able to take a bite and say that you're full. It REALLY
is! If you *are*.
As for "junk"---I keep platters of pears and cheese and grapes and
carrots and muffins and other wholesome foods within reach all day. I
also have a big bowl of M&Ms or jelly beans in the den. We have cookies and
ice cream available all the time. My boys, at nine and 17, are just as
likely to fix a quesdilla as they are to reach for the chips. Maybe MORE so,
because they've been given that choice for so long and they know how
different foods make them feel.
-=-=-=-As for the TV, I let them watch as close to all they want as is reasonable.-=-=-
Who decides what's reasonable?
-=-=-My husband has shows he likes to watch in the late morning, so after the
girls have watched 4 hours of TV, it is his turn. And that is how we view
it. Whenever multiple people want to use the same thing but differently,
they have to take turns and share. TV is the same way in our house.-=-=-
Maybe you need more than one tv? That way everyone can be happy and not
*just* the person with the TV.
-=-=-Sometimes, though, I will shut it off and not let anyone watch for a little
bit because I grew up without a TV and having it on *all* the time drives me
batty. I have to have some quiet in the house sometimes. That is my turn
with the TV. :)-=-=-=
Creepy.
-=-=-When I don't take my turn, the rest of the family has it
on from 6 am to 10 or 11 pm. Lauren will sometimes watch TV for a while,
then get up and shut it off and go do something else, usually playing with
her sister Rowan (12 mo). The first time I saw that I was shocked. I had
never seen a child voluntarily shut off the TV.-=-=-=
Maybe because your viewing was controlled as a child?
Our children seem to only watch when there's something interesting on.
They regularly turn it off to do other things. Amazing? No.
Expected when it's not limited.
-=-=-=-I see my role of parent as being that of provider and protector. I see a
lot of emphasis on provider in all the info I have found on unschooling, but
the protector part seems to be overlooked, at least in what I have found.-=-=-=-
Right. We're all out to make sure harm comes to our children. The more
dangerous, the better.
-=-=-=-There is a reason why humans rear their children for roughly two decades,
instead of leaving them to their own devices from day one like reptiles do.-=-=-
And now we're leaving them to their own devices? And being compared to crocodiles????
How long have you been reading here?
-=-=-=-I need to protect my children from making foolish decisions that will cause
themselves pain or harm, and so I step in and give them the benefit of my
experience and wisdom. -=-=-=-
See, I choose to help my children make wiser decisions (and allow them to make
a few mistakes---which we call learning-takes) NOW rather than have all their
decisions made FOR them and then turn them loose at 18 with no real handle on
how to weigh those decisions.
-=-=-=-Wow, that sounds really condescending, but I can't
think of a better way to phrase it right now.-=-=-=-
Yes, it does. To us AND to your children.
-=-=-=-At such a young age, my
children don't have the experience or knowledge to make decisions about what
kinds of food to eat. The relationship between diet and health is too
abstract for them right now. It is easier to relate too much sugar to an
upset tummy than it is to relate the fact that you don't have the flu that
is going around to the fact that you take cod liver oil every day. -=-=-=
Huh?
See, I feel that the honest relationship between me and my children is MOST important.
I trust when they say they're hungry or when they're full.
And cod liver oil every day prevents the flu??? That's a fact? Call the AMA!
-=-=-=-=- Lauren still doesn't really grasp the idea that she gets cranky by 5 or 6 pm
because she didn't take a nap. Then she has temper tantrums and misbehaves
and gets yelled at for it and everyone is miserable. She doesn't like
getting yelled at, we don't like yelling, and it all could have been
prevented with a simple nap.-=-=-=-
She's TWO? There's a whole lot more to it than that.
If allowed to learn when she needs sleep, she will nap when she is tired.
"Then she has temper tantrums and misbehaves
and gets yelled at for it and everyone is miserable."
This one just makes me sad for that little girl. She gets yelled at for being tired???
She's blamed for making everyone miserable? She's TWO!
-=-=-=-I hope this clarifies my position on "structure".-=-=-=-
No. It does clarify why you *think* you need to control your children.
But that has nothing to do with structure.
You might want to read more about unschooling.
~Kelly, who is usually more forgiving and
patient on this list. I just got pretty peeved.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Maria Dorian <mariadorian@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 03:57:56 -0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Intro and structure
Well said, Judy!
Maria
<<<<<
Well, not exactly.
This is a list for those looking to make the leap to unschooling.
This doesn't even come close to helping others understand how unschooling works.
First of all, the mom who responded doesn't have a child over age five.
So, she really isn't technically an unschooler. Her only "school age" child is in
kindergarten.
She's also assuming the worst of her children from the get-go.
She's still controlling what they do. She's assuming that they will not
chose healthful foods or sleep when they are tired or wake when they are rested
or ever turn off the tv.
Well, let's look at her points:
-=-=-=-Perhaps I am seeing this issue only from my experience with my own children.
My children are 5 and under. Their birthdays are in April. Lauren (2 yo)
gets incredibly cranky by dinnertime if I don't make her take a nap. Moira
(5 yo) is quite happy to stay up until 1 am, and often does when we have our
friends over every other weekend for table top gaming. I am not yet
unschooling and Moira is in kindergarten, so she has to be up in time to get
on the bus, which means she has to go to bed by a certain time every night
to get enough sleep. I do let them lay in bed reading (or looking at the
pictures) for as long as they like every night. Usually they are all asleep
within an hour. On weekends I am far more lax. They get to stay up later
and they can get up whenever they feel like, but Lauren is predictably up
between 6 and 6:30 every morning.-=-=-=-=-
Children are NOT unschooling. So sleep patterns are school-determined. NOT natural.
-=-=-=-=-My girls could (and have) convince(d) anyone that I starve them within a
half hour of eating a huge meal. I feel strongly that family meals are an
important opportunity for parents to model good manners and for everyone in
the family to connect and socialize, so eating meals together is a must for
me. -=-=-=-=-
Have you asked your children what *they* think?
Why do you think they aren't full after a huge meal? Maybe because YOU are
telling them when they should be full or hungry?
Samll children have small stomachs. They don't NEED huge meals!
You might want to listen to them a bit more.
-=-=-=- Snacks are far more casual and can be eaten within a broad timeframe
(not within an hour of dinner so that they don't take one bite and say they
are full), and can be eaten pretty much anywhere except upstairs in their
bedrooms. I do regulate what they can eat because I feel strongly about
good nutrition and if left on their own, they will see nothing wrong with
eating junk food all day.-=-=-=-
Sandra has pages of "If I let" quotes from moms over the years: Take a look:
www.SandraDodd.com/unschooling/ifilet
It's really important to be able to take a bite and say that you're full. It REALLY
is! If you *are*.
As for "junk"---I keep platters of pears and cheese and grapes and
carrots and muffins and other wholesome foods within reach all day. I
also have a big bowl of M&Ms or jelly beans in the den. We have cookies and
ice cream available all the time. My boys, at nine and 17, are just as
likely to fix a quesdilla as they are to reach for the chips. Maybe MORE so,
because they've been given that choice for so long and they know how
different foods make them feel.
-=-=-=-As for the TV, I let them watch as close to all they want as is reasonable.-=-=-
Who decides what's reasonable?
-=-=-My husband has shows he likes to watch in the late morning, so after the
girls have watched 4 hours of TV, it is his turn. And that is how we view
it. Whenever multiple people want to use the same thing but differently,
they have to take turns and share. TV is the same way in our house.-=-=-
Maybe you need more than one tv? That way everyone can be happy and not
*just* the person with the TV.
-=-=-Sometimes, though, I will shut it off and not let anyone watch for a little
bit because I grew up without a TV and having it on *all* the time drives me
batty. I have to have some quiet in the house sometimes. That is my turn
with the TV. :)-=-=-=
Creepy.
-=-=-When I don't take my turn, the rest of the family has it
on from 6 am to 10 or 11 pm. Lauren will sometimes watch TV for a while,
then get up and shut it off and go do something else, usually playing with
her sister Rowan (12 mo). The first time I saw that I was shocked. I had
never seen a child voluntarily shut off the TV.-=-=-=
Maybe because your viewing was controlled as a child?
Our children seem to only watch when there's something interesting on.
They regularly turn it off to do other things. Amazing? No.
Expected when it's not limited.
-=-=-=-I see my role of parent as being that of provider and protector. I see a
lot of emphasis on provider in all the info I have found on unschooling, but
the protector part seems to be overlooked, at least in what I have found.-=-=-=-
Right. We're all out to make sure harm comes to our children. The more
dangerous, the better.
-=-=-=-There is a reason why humans rear their children for roughly two decades,
instead of leaving them to their own devices from day one like reptiles do.-=-=-
And now we're leaving them to their own devices? And being compared to crocodiles????
How long have you been reading here?
-=-=-=-I need to protect my children from making foolish decisions that will cause
themselves pain or harm, and so I step in and give them the benefit of my
experience and wisdom. -=-=-=-
See, I choose to help my children make wiser decisions (and allow them to make
a few mistakes---which we call learning-takes) NOW rather than have all their
decisions made FOR them and then turn them loose at 18 with no real handle on
how to weigh those decisions.
-=-=-=-Wow, that sounds really condescending, but I can't
think of a better way to phrase it right now.-=-=-=-
Yes, it does. To us AND to your children.
-=-=-=-At such a young age, my
children don't have the experience or knowledge to make decisions about what
kinds of food to eat. The relationship between diet and health is too
abstract for them right now. It is easier to relate too much sugar to an
upset tummy than it is to relate the fact that you don't have the flu that
is going around to the fact that you take cod liver oil every day. -=-=-=
Huh?
See, I feel that the honest relationship between me and my children is MOST important.
I trust when they say they're hungry or when they're full.
And cod liver oil every day prevents the flu??? That's a fact? Call the AMA!
-=-=-=-=- Lauren still doesn't really grasp the idea that she gets cranky by 5 or 6 pm
because she didn't take a nap. Then she has temper tantrums and misbehaves
and gets yelled at for it and everyone is miserable. She doesn't like
getting yelled at, we don't like yelling, and it all could have been
prevented with a simple nap.-=-=-=-
She's TWO? There's a whole lot more to it than that.
If allowed to learn when she needs sleep, she will nap when she is tired.
"Then she has temper tantrums and misbehaves
and gets yelled at for it and everyone is miserable."
This one just makes me sad for that little girl. She gets yelled at for being tired???
She's blamed for making everyone miserable? She's TWO!
-=-=-=-I hope this clarifies my position on "structure".-=-=-=-
No. It does clarify why you *think* you need to control your children.
But that has nothing to do with structure.
You might want to read more about unschooling.
~Kelly, who is usually more forgiving and
patient on this list. I just got pretty peeved.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Judy Anderson
-----Original Message-----
From: kbcdlovejo@... [mailto:kbcdlovejo@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 12:07 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] structure?????
-----Original Message-----
From: Maria Dorian <mariadorian@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 03:57:56 -0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Intro and structure
Well said, Judy!
Maria
<<<<<
Well, not exactly.
This is a list for those looking to make the leap to unschooling.
This doesn't even come close to helping others understand how unschooling
works.
First of all, the mom who responded doesn't have a child over age five.
So, she really isn't technically an unschooler. Her only "school age"
child is in
kindergarten.
She's also assuming the worst of her children from the get-go.
She's still controlling what they do. She's assuming that they will not
chose healthful foods or sleep when they are tired or wake when they are
rested
or ever turn off the tv.
Well, let's look at her points:
-=-=-=-Perhaps I am seeing this issue only from my experience with my own
children.
My children are 5 and under. Their birthdays are in April. Lauren (2 yo)
gets incredibly cranky by dinnertime if I don't make her take a nap.
Moira
(5 yo) is quite happy to stay up until 1 am, and often does when we have
our
friends over every other weekend for table top gaming. I am not yet
unschooling and Moira is in kindergarten, so she has to be up in time to
get
on the bus, which means she has to go to bed by a certain time every night
to get enough sleep. I do let them lay in bed reading (or looking at the
pictures) for as long as they like every night. Usually they are all
asleep
within an hour. On weekends I am far more lax. They get to stay up later
and they can get up whenever they feel like, but Lauren is predictably up
between 6 and 6:30 every morning.-=-=-=-=-
Children are NOT unschooling. So sleep patterns are school-determined. NOT
natural.
**** My children's sleep habits were not determined by school until a few
months ago. What I described is what happened *before* Moira started
school. Also, I am not comfortable going to bed while my children are still
up and about. Therefore, I make sure I put them to bed before I go to bed.
-=-=-=-=-My girls could (and have) convince(d) anyone that I starve them
within a
half hour of eating a huge meal. I feel strongly that family meals are an
important opportunity for parents to model good manners and for everyone
in
the family to connect and socialize, so eating meals together is a must
for
me. -=-=-=-=-
Have you asked your children what *they* think?
Why do you think they aren't full after a huge meal? Maybe because YOU are
telling them when they should be full or hungry?
Samll children have small stomachs. They don't NEED huge meals!
You might want to listen to them a bit more.
**** I believe my children are full when they tell me they are full. If
they tell me that they are full and ten minutes later are asking for more to
eat because they are starving, then either they have unnaturally fast
metabolisms or they are lying to me.
-=-=-=- Snacks are far more casual and can be eaten within a broad
timeframe
(not within an hour of dinner so that they don't take one bite and say
they
are full), and can be eaten pretty much anywhere except upstairs in their
bedrooms. I do regulate what they can eat because I feel strongly about
good nutrition and if left on their own, they will see nothing wrong with
eating junk food all day.-=-=-=-
Sandra has pages of "If I let" quotes from moms over the years: Take a
look:
www.SandraDodd.com/unschooling/ifilet
**** I am merely saying what I have seen them do.
It's really important to be able to take a bite and say that you're full.
It REALLY
is! If you *are*.
As for "junk"---I keep platters of pears and cheese and grapes and
carrots and muffins and other wholesome foods within reach all day. I
also have a big bowl of M&Ms or jelly beans in the den. We have cookies
and
ice cream available all the time. My boys, at nine and 17, are just as
likely to fix a quesdilla as they are to reach for the chips. Maybe MORE
so,
because they've been given that choice for so long and they know how
different foods make them feel.
-=-=-=-As for the TV, I let them watch as close to all they want as is
reasonable.-=-=-
Who decides what's reasonable?
**** Reasonable is letting others have turns too. I thought I explained
that.
-=-=-My husband has shows he likes to watch in the late morning, so after
the
girls have watched 4 hours of TV, it is his turn. And that is how we view
it. Whenever multiple people want to use the same thing but differently,
they have to take turns and share. TV is the same way in our house.-=-=-
Maybe you need more than one tv? That way everyone can be happy and not
*just* the person with the TV.
**** That is impossible in our current living situation. Believe me, I
have wanted to do that.
-=-=-Sometimes, though, I will shut it off and not let anyone watch for a
little
bit because I grew up without a TV and having it on *all* the time drives
me
batty. I have to have some quiet in the house sometimes. That is my turn
with the TV. :)-=-=-=
Creepy.
**** Why is needing some quiet time "creepy"? See, what I have gotten from
these lists is that children have needs that must be met, but parents don't.
Well, I do. Most of the time, they get their TV on for every waking hour.
Once a month, if that, I say it stays off for an hour or two.
-=-=-When I don't take my turn, the rest of the family has it
on from 6 am to 10 or 11 pm. Lauren will sometimes watch TV for a while,
then get up and shut it off and go do something else, usually playing with
her sister Rowan (12 mo). The first time I saw that I was shocked. I had
never seen a child voluntarily shut off the TV.-=-=-=
Maybe because your viewing was controlled as a child?
Our children seem to only watch when there's something interesting on.
They regularly turn it off to do other things. Amazing? No.
Expected when it's not limited.
**** I don't consider my TV viewing as having been controlled as a child.
We didn't have electricity to run a TV. I did sometimes watch TV at my
friends' houses. It is no different than someone who grew up without pets
because they had no ability to care for one (for whatever reason). Was
their pet situation "controlled"?
-=-=-=-I see my role of parent as being that of provider and protector. I
see a
lot of emphasis on provider in all the info I have found on unschooling,
but
the protector part seems to be overlooked, at least in what I have
found.-=-=-=-
Right. We're all out to make sure harm comes to our children. The more
dangerous, the better.
**** I never said that. You are now being passive aggressive. What I
have seen indicates that the children are allowed to make *all* the
decisions.
-=-=-=-There is a reason why humans rear their children for roughly two
decades,
instead of leaving them to their own devices from day one like reptiles
do.-=-=-
And now we're leaving them to their own devices? And being compared to
crocodiles????
How long have you been reading here?
**** I have been reading here and at UnschoolingDiscussion for nearly a
month. I have also read some of Sandra Dodd's articles, but it will take me
a long time to read them all.
-=-=-=-I need to protect my children from making foolish decisions that
will cause
themselves pain or harm, and so I step in and give them the benefit of my
experience and wisdom. -=-=-=-
See, I choose to help my children make wiser decisions (and allow them to
make
a few mistakes---which we call learning-takes) NOW rather than have all
their
decisions made FOR them and then turn them loose at 18 with no real handle
on
how to weigh those decisions.
****I believe in learning from the mistakes of others so you don't have to
repeat them for yourself. I do also let them make some mistakes as well, as
experience is a better teacher in some circumstances. When I do make a
decision for them, I explain why so that they can learn without the pain of
the mistake.
-=-=-=-Wow, that sounds really condescending, but I can't
think of a better way to phrase it right now.-=-=-=-
Yes, it does. To us AND to your children.
-=-=-=-At such a young age, my
children don't have the experience or knowledge to make decisions about
what
kinds of food to eat. The relationship between diet and health is too
abstract for them right now. It is easier to relate too much sugar to an
upset tummy than it is to relate the fact that you don't have the flu that
is going around to the fact that you take cod liver oil every day. -=-=-=
Huh?
See, I feel that the honest relationship between me and my children is
MOST important.
I trust when they say they're hungry or when they're full.
And cod liver oil every day prevents the flu??? That's a fact? Call the
AMA!
**** The flu shot certainly doesn't. You avoid the flu by maintaining a
healthy immune system. CLO is one way to do that. Obviously it is not the
only way, not can it do so all by itself. But I am not here to discuss
nutrition. I used it as an example of a cause-effect relationship that is
too obscure/subtle for small children to understand by themselves.
-=-=-=-=- Lauren still doesn't really grasp the idea that she gets cranky
by 5 or 6 pm
because she didn't take a nap. Then she has temper tantrums and
misbehaves
and gets yelled at for it and everyone is miserable. She doesn't like
getting yelled at, we don't like yelling, and it all could have been
prevented with a simple nap.-=-=-=-
She's TWO? There's a whole lot more to it than that.
If allowed to learn when she needs sleep, she will nap when she is tired.
"Then she has temper tantrums and misbehaves
and gets yelled at for it and everyone is miserable."
This one just makes me sad for that little girl. She gets yelled at for
being tired???
She's blamed for making everyone miserable? She's TWO!
**** No. Read what I said. I said she misbehaves and gets yelled at for
it. She gets yelled at for hitting her sisters and screaming at us and
throwing things around the house, not for being tired.
-=-=-=-I hope this clarifies my position on "structure".-=-=-=-
No. It does clarify why you *think* you need to control your children.
But that has nothing to do with structure.
You might want to read more about unschooling.
**** I posted this so that you would understand what my thought processes
are now and show me how and why I should change them. I certainly did not
expect this kind of passive aggression. I have read plenty of posts saying
that you should never say no to a child because it hinders their learning
process. I have not seen any posts about saying no to a child to protect
them from a danger they don't understand. Try as I might I cannot see the
logic in that. I wanted more people to explain it to me in the hopes that
someone else's POV would help me understand. I feel like I am being
attacked for my ignorance and must defend myself. I hope that that changes.
Judy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: kbcdlovejo@... [mailto:kbcdlovejo@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 12:07 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] structure?????
-----Original Message-----
From: Maria Dorian <mariadorian@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 03:57:56 -0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Intro and structure
Well said, Judy!
Maria
<<<<<
Well, not exactly.
This is a list for those looking to make the leap to unschooling.
This doesn't even come close to helping others understand how unschooling
works.
First of all, the mom who responded doesn't have a child over age five.
So, she really isn't technically an unschooler. Her only "school age"
child is in
kindergarten.
She's also assuming the worst of her children from the get-go.
She's still controlling what they do. She's assuming that they will not
chose healthful foods or sleep when they are tired or wake when they are
rested
or ever turn off the tv.
Well, let's look at her points:
-=-=-=-Perhaps I am seeing this issue only from my experience with my own
children.
My children are 5 and under. Their birthdays are in April. Lauren (2 yo)
gets incredibly cranky by dinnertime if I don't make her take a nap.
Moira
(5 yo) is quite happy to stay up until 1 am, and often does when we have
our
friends over every other weekend for table top gaming. I am not yet
unschooling and Moira is in kindergarten, so she has to be up in time to
get
on the bus, which means she has to go to bed by a certain time every night
to get enough sleep. I do let them lay in bed reading (or looking at the
pictures) for as long as they like every night. Usually they are all
asleep
within an hour. On weekends I am far more lax. They get to stay up later
and they can get up whenever they feel like, but Lauren is predictably up
between 6 and 6:30 every morning.-=-=-=-=-
Children are NOT unschooling. So sleep patterns are school-determined. NOT
natural.
**** My children's sleep habits were not determined by school until a few
months ago. What I described is what happened *before* Moira started
school. Also, I am not comfortable going to bed while my children are still
up and about. Therefore, I make sure I put them to bed before I go to bed.
-=-=-=-=-My girls could (and have) convince(d) anyone that I starve them
within a
half hour of eating a huge meal. I feel strongly that family meals are an
important opportunity for parents to model good manners and for everyone
in
the family to connect and socialize, so eating meals together is a must
for
me. -=-=-=-=-
Have you asked your children what *they* think?
Why do you think they aren't full after a huge meal? Maybe because YOU are
telling them when they should be full or hungry?
Samll children have small stomachs. They don't NEED huge meals!
You might want to listen to them a bit more.
**** I believe my children are full when they tell me they are full. If
they tell me that they are full and ten minutes later are asking for more to
eat because they are starving, then either they have unnaturally fast
metabolisms or they are lying to me.
-=-=-=- Snacks are far more casual and can be eaten within a broad
timeframe
(not within an hour of dinner so that they don't take one bite and say
they
are full), and can be eaten pretty much anywhere except upstairs in their
bedrooms. I do regulate what they can eat because I feel strongly about
good nutrition and if left on their own, they will see nothing wrong with
eating junk food all day.-=-=-=-
Sandra has pages of "If I let" quotes from moms over the years: Take a
look:
www.SandraDodd.com/unschooling/ifilet
**** I am merely saying what I have seen them do.
It's really important to be able to take a bite and say that you're full.
It REALLY
is! If you *are*.
As for "junk"---I keep platters of pears and cheese and grapes and
carrots and muffins and other wholesome foods within reach all day. I
also have a big bowl of M&Ms or jelly beans in the den. We have cookies
and
ice cream available all the time. My boys, at nine and 17, are just as
likely to fix a quesdilla as they are to reach for the chips. Maybe MORE
so,
because they've been given that choice for so long and they know how
different foods make them feel.
-=-=-=-As for the TV, I let them watch as close to all they want as is
reasonable.-=-=-
Who decides what's reasonable?
**** Reasonable is letting others have turns too. I thought I explained
that.
-=-=-My husband has shows he likes to watch in the late morning, so after
the
girls have watched 4 hours of TV, it is his turn. And that is how we view
it. Whenever multiple people want to use the same thing but differently,
they have to take turns and share. TV is the same way in our house.-=-=-
Maybe you need more than one tv? That way everyone can be happy and not
*just* the person with the TV.
**** That is impossible in our current living situation. Believe me, I
have wanted to do that.
-=-=-Sometimes, though, I will shut it off and not let anyone watch for a
little
bit because I grew up without a TV and having it on *all* the time drives
me
batty. I have to have some quiet in the house sometimes. That is my turn
with the TV. :)-=-=-=
Creepy.
**** Why is needing some quiet time "creepy"? See, what I have gotten from
these lists is that children have needs that must be met, but parents don't.
Well, I do. Most of the time, they get their TV on for every waking hour.
Once a month, if that, I say it stays off for an hour or two.
-=-=-When I don't take my turn, the rest of the family has it
on from 6 am to 10 or 11 pm. Lauren will sometimes watch TV for a while,
then get up and shut it off and go do something else, usually playing with
her sister Rowan (12 mo). The first time I saw that I was shocked. I had
never seen a child voluntarily shut off the TV.-=-=-=
Maybe because your viewing was controlled as a child?
Our children seem to only watch when there's something interesting on.
They regularly turn it off to do other things. Amazing? No.
Expected when it's not limited.
**** I don't consider my TV viewing as having been controlled as a child.
We didn't have electricity to run a TV. I did sometimes watch TV at my
friends' houses. It is no different than someone who grew up without pets
because they had no ability to care for one (for whatever reason). Was
their pet situation "controlled"?
-=-=-=-I see my role of parent as being that of provider and protector. I
see a
lot of emphasis on provider in all the info I have found on unschooling,
but
the protector part seems to be overlooked, at least in what I have
found.-=-=-=-
Right. We're all out to make sure harm comes to our children. The more
dangerous, the better.
**** I never said that. You are now being passive aggressive. What I
have seen indicates that the children are allowed to make *all* the
decisions.
-=-=-=-There is a reason why humans rear their children for roughly two
decades,
instead of leaving them to their own devices from day one like reptiles
do.-=-=-
And now we're leaving them to their own devices? And being compared to
crocodiles????
How long have you been reading here?
**** I have been reading here and at UnschoolingDiscussion for nearly a
month. I have also read some of Sandra Dodd's articles, but it will take me
a long time to read them all.
-=-=-=-I need to protect my children from making foolish decisions that
will cause
themselves pain or harm, and so I step in and give them the benefit of my
experience and wisdom. -=-=-=-
See, I choose to help my children make wiser decisions (and allow them to
make
a few mistakes---which we call learning-takes) NOW rather than have all
their
decisions made FOR them and then turn them loose at 18 with no real handle
on
how to weigh those decisions.
****I believe in learning from the mistakes of others so you don't have to
repeat them for yourself. I do also let them make some mistakes as well, as
experience is a better teacher in some circumstances. When I do make a
decision for them, I explain why so that they can learn without the pain of
the mistake.
-=-=-=-Wow, that sounds really condescending, but I can't
think of a better way to phrase it right now.-=-=-=-
Yes, it does. To us AND to your children.
-=-=-=-At such a young age, my
children don't have the experience or knowledge to make decisions about
what
kinds of food to eat. The relationship between diet and health is too
abstract for them right now. It is easier to relate too much sugar to an
upset tummy than it is to relate the fact that you don't have the flu that
is going around to the fact that you take cod liver oil every day. -=-=-=
Huh?
See, I feel that the honest relationship between me and my children is
MOST important.
I trust when they say they're hungry or when they're full.
And cod liver oil every day prevents the flu??? That's a fact? Call the
AMA!
**** The flu shot certainly doesn't. You avoid the flu by maintaining a
healthy immune system. CLO is one way to do that. Obviously it is not the
only way, not can it do so all by itself. But I am not here to discuss
nutrition. I used it as an example of a cause-effect relationship that is
too obscure/subtle for small children to understand by themselves.
-=-=-=-=- Lauren still doesn't really grasp the idea that she gets cranky
by 5 or 6 pm
because she didn't take a nap. Then she has temper tantrums and
misbehaves
and gets yelled at for it and everyone is miserable. She doesn't like
getting yelled at, we don't like yelling, and it all could have been
prevented with a simple nap.-=-=-=-
She's TWO? There's a whole lot more to it than that.
If allowed to learn when she needs sleep, she will nap when she is tired.
"Then she has temper tantrums and misbehaves
and gets yelled at for it and everyone is miserable."
This one just makes me sad for that little girl. She gets yelled at for
being tired???
She's blamed for making everyone miserable? She's TWO!
**** No. Read what I said. I said she misbehaves and gets yelled at for
it. She gets yelled at for hitting her sisters and screaming at us and
throwing things around the house, not for being tired.
-=-=-=-I hope this clarifies my position on "structure".-=-=-=-
No. It does clarify why you *think* you need to control your children.
But that has nothing to do with structure.
You might want to read more about unschooling.
**** I posted this so that you would understand what my thought processes
are now and show me how and why I should change them. I certainly did not
expect this kind of passive aggression. I have read plenty of posts saying
that you should never say no to a child because it hinders their learning
process. I have not seen any posts about saying no to a child to protect
them from a danger they don't understand. Try as I might I cannot see the
logic in that. I wanted more people to explain it to me in the hopes that
someone else's POV would help me understand. I feel like I am being
attacked for my ignorance and must defend myself. I hope that that changes.
Judy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Mar 14, 2005, at 9:52 PM, Judy Anderson wrote:
To what purpose?
-pam
> **** I believe my children are full when they tell me they are full.Your 5 and 2 year olds are LYING to you about being hungry?
> If
> they tell me that they are full and ten minutes later are asking for
> more to
> eat because they are starving, then either they have unnaturally fast
> metabolisms or they are lying to me.
To what purpose?
-pam
Pam Sorooshian
On Mar 14, 2005, at 9:52 PM, Judy Anderson wrote:
to a child because it hinders their learning process."
I've seen MANY posts that suggest making "Yes" the default instead of
"No," but that doesn't preclude ever saying "No."
The point of trying to say "Yes" more often is that most parents in our
society automatically say "No" most of the time.
Making the default be "Yes" means that parents will say "No" only when
there is good reason. It doesn't mean that "No" will never cross their
lips - but it does mean that they try to find a way to make things work
out for EVERYBODY, rather than just flat-out saying "No," if possible.
-pam
> I have read plenty of posts sayingI've never seen a post on the unschooling lists that says "never say no
> that you should never say no to a child because it hinders their
> learning
> process.
to a child because it hinders their learning process."
I've seen MANY posts that suggest making "Yes" the default instead of
"No," but that doesn't preclude ever saying "No."
The point of trying to say "Yes" more often is that most parents in our
society automatically say "No" most of the time.
Making the default be "Yes" means that parents will say "No" only when
there is good reason. It doesn't mean that "No" will never cross their
lips - but it does mean that they try to find a way to make things work
out for EVERYBODY, rather than just flat-out saying "No," if possible.
-pam
> I have not seen any posts about saying no to a child to protect
> them from a danger they don't understand. Try as I might I cannot see
> the
> logic in that. I wanted more people to explain it to me in the hopes
> that
> someone else's POV would help me understand. I feel like I am being
> attacked for my ignorance and must defend myself. I hope that that
> changes.
Judy Anderson
I don't know. I sometimes think that they think I have a secret stash of
food hiding somewhere that is more appealing than whatever I served for
dinner. I really wish I could figure out how to stop it.
Judy
-----Original Message-----
From: Pam Sorooshian [mailto:pamsoroosh@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 12:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] structure?????
food hiding somewhere that is more appealing than whatever I served for
dinner. I really wish I could figure out how to stop it.
Judy
-----Original Message-----
From: Pam Sorooshian [mailto:pamsoroosh@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 12:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] structure?????
On Mar 14, 2005, at 9:52 PM, Judy Anderson wrote:
> **** I believe my children are full when they tell me they are full.
> If
> they tell me that they are full and ten minutes later are asking for
> more to
> eat because they are starving, then either they have unnaturally fast
> metabolisms or they are lying to me.
Your 5 and 2 year olds are LYING to you about being hungry?
To what purpose?
-pam
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Judy Anderson
Thank you so much for further explaining that for me. I remember once my
dad noticed that he made No the default answer for my brothers, but not for
me. I recently (several months ago) noticed that I do the same and have
been actively trying not to say no if I don't have a very good reason. And
if I do say No, I explain why and try to come up with an alternative. It is
a hard mindset to change, though.
Judy
-----Original Message-----
From: Pam Sorooshian [mailto:pamsoroosh@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 1:06 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] structure?????
dad noticed that he made No the default answer for my brothers, but not for
me. I recently (several months ago) noticed that I do the same and have
been actively trying not to say no if I don't have a very good reason. And
if I do say No, I explain why and try to come up with an alternative. It is
a hard mindset to change, though.
Judy
-----Original Message-----
From: Pam Sorooshian [mailto:pamsoroosh@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 1:06 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] structure?????
On Mar 14, 2005, at 9:52 PM, Judy Anderson wrote:
> I have read plenty of posts saying
> that you should never say no to a child because it hinders their
> learning
> process.
I've never seen a post on the unschooling lists that says "never say no
to a child because it hinders their learning process."
I've seen MANY posts that suggest making "Yes" the default instead of
"No," but that doesn't preclude ever saying "No."
The point of trying to say "Yes" more often is that most parents in our
society automatically say "No" most of the time.
Making the default be "Yes" means that parents will say "No" only when
there is good reason. It doesn't mean that "No" will never cross their
lips - but it does mean that they try to find a way to make things work
out for EVERYBODY, rather than just flat-out saying "No," if possible.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maria Dorian
Kelly, first and foremost, I said, "Well, said". Alright, oops, my
mistake, I should have said, "Well, explained". My bad.
The gal that posted, unsure of her name, is obviously NOT an
unschooler. Maybe she hasn't read much on radically unschooling and
just jumped in with her views? Not sure, either way, you shouldn't
get upset. You did a wonderful job explaining how REAL unschooling
is in comparison to how she parents. Also, maybe she is a Christian
(but maybe not) which would explain how she might not want her kids
to watch certain shows.
You made some great points and because I'm about to leave for work,
I just don't have time to pick them out word for word like you
did. But, I really agree with you! My kiddos, I feel watch t.v.
all day. Cartoons 98% of the time. The way we as parents get our
time to watch t.v. (we only have one) is we say, "Alright, now it's
mom and dad's turn to learn something!" Never once do they
complain!!
As for the food thing, I was raised with controled meal times. This
for me has turned into a weight problem because I always feel I
should eat when there's food in front of me, even if I"m not
hungry. And, I'm used to eating past full, just to clear my plate.
From the get go, we have raised our kids to ask when they are hungry
for me to feed them. That snack idea that you do was a great idea.
After they are fed, if they only eat two bites, great!!
Wonderful!! I know that I will never have to worry about them
having the kind of problems in that area that I have. And, because
we are unschoolers and HOME with them EACH and everyday, pretty much
at all time, we technically are eating together as a family all the
time. I might be reading while my son is eating lunch but we are
still eating together aren't we?
Anyways, many more points you made were right on to unschooling.
Well said!! :)
Maria
mistake, I should have said, "Well, explained". My bad.
The gal that posted, unsure of her name, is obviously NOT an
unschooler. Maybe she hasn't read much on radically unschooling and
just jumped in with her views? Not sure, either way, you shouldn't
get upset. You did a wonderful job explaining how REAL unschooling
is in comparison to how she parents. Also, maybe she is a Christian
(but maybe not) which would explain how she might not want her kids
to watch certain shows.
You made some great points and because I'm about to leave for work,
I just don't have time to pick them out word for word like you
did. But, I really agree with you! My kiddos, I feel watch t.v.
all day. Cartoons 98% of the time. The way we as parents get our
time to watch t.v. (we only have one) is we say, "Alright, now it's
mom and dad's turn to learn something!" Never once do they
complain!!
As for the food thing, I was raised with controled meal times. This
for me has turned into a weight problem because I always feel I
should eat when there's food in front of me, even if I"m not
hungry. And, I'm used to eating past full, just to clear my plate.
From the get go, we have raised our kids to ask when they are hungry
for me to feed them. That snack idea that you do was a great idea.
After they are fed, if they only eat two bites, great!!
Wonderful!! I know that I will never have to worry about them
having the kind of problems in that area that I have. And, because
we are unschoolers and HOME with them EACH and everyday, pretty much
at all time, we technically are eating together as a family all the
time. I might be reading while my son is eating lunch but we are
still eating together aren't we?
Anyways, many more points you made were right on to unschooling.
Well said!! :)
Maria
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Maria Dorian <mariadorian@h...>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 03:57:56 -0000
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Intro and structure
>
>
>
>
> Well said, Judy!
>
> Maria
>
> <<<<<
> Well, not exactly.
> This is a list for those looking to make the leap to unschooling.
> This doesn't even come close to helping others understand how
unschooling works.
> First of all, the mom who responded doesn't have a child over age
five.
> So, she really isn't technically an unschooler. Her only "school
age" child is in
> kindergarten.
>
> She's also assuming the worst of her children from the get-go.
> She's still controlling what they do. She's assuming that they
will not
> chose healthful foods or sleep when they are tired or wake when
they are rested
> or ever turn off the tv.
> Well, let's look at her points:
>
> -=-=-=-Perhaps I am seeing this issue only from my experience with
my own children.
> My children are 5 and under. Their birthdays are in April.
Lauren (2 yo)
> gets incredibly cranky by dinnertime if I don't make her take a
nap. Moira
> (5 yo) is quite happy to stay up until 1 am, and often does when
we have our
> friends over every other weekend for table top gaming. I am not
yet
> unschooling and Moira is in kindergarten, so she has to be up in
time to get
> on the bus, which means she has to go to bed by a certain time
every night
> to get enough sleep. I do let them lay in bed reading (or looking
at the
> pictures) for as long as they like every night. Usually they are
all asleep
> within an hour. On weekends I am far more lax. They get to stay
up later
> and they can get up whenever they feel like, but Lauren is
predictably up
> between 6 and 6:30 every morning.-=-=-=-=-
> Children are NOT unschooling. So sleep patterns are school-
determined. NOT natural.
>
> -=-=-=-=-My girls could (and have) convince(d) anyone that I
starve them within a
> half hour of eating a huge meal. I feel strongly that family
meals are an
> important opportunity for parents to model good manners and for
everyone in
> the family to connect and socialize, so eating meals together is a
must for
> me. -=-=-=-=-
> Have you asked your children what *they* think?
> Why do you think they aren't full after a huge meal? Maybe because
YOU are
> telling them when they should be full or hungry?
> Samll children have small stomachs. They don't NEED huge meals!
> You might want to listen to them a bit more.
> -=-=-=- Snacks are far more casual and can be eaten within a broad
timeframe
> (not within an hour of dinner so that they don't take one bite and
say they
> are full), and can be eaten pretty much anywhere except upstairs
in their
> bedrooms. I do regulate what they can eat because I feel strongly
about
> good nutrition and if left on their own, they will see nothing
wrong with
> eating junk food all day.-=-=-=-
> Sandra has pages of "If I let" quotes from moms over the years:
Take a look:
> www.SandraDodd.com/unschooling/ifilet
>
> It's really important to be able to take a bite and say that
you're full. It REALLY
> is! If you *are*.
> As for "junk"---I keep platters of pears and cheese and grapes and
> carrots and muffins and other wholesome foods within reach all
day. I
> also have a big bowl of M&Ms or jelly beans in the den. We have
cookies and
> ice cream available all the time. My boys, at nine and 17, are
just as
> likely to fix a quesdilla as they are to reach for the chips.
Maybe MORE so,
> because they've been given that choice for so long and they know
how
> different foods make them feel.
>
> -=-=-=-As for the TV, I let them watch as close to all they want
as is reasonable.-=-=-
> Who decides what's reasonable?
>
> -=-=-My husband has shows he likes to watch in the late morning,
so after the
> girls have watched 4 hours of TV, it is his turn. And that is how
we view
> it. Whenever multiple people want to use the same thing but
differently,
> they have to take turns and share. TV is the same way in our
house.-=-=-
>
> Maybe you need more than one tv? That way everyone can be happy
and not
> *just* the person with the TV.
>
> -=-=-Sometimes, though, I will shut it off and not let anyone
watch for a little
> bit because I grew up without a TV and having it on *all* the time
drives me
> batty. I have to have some quiet in the house sometimes. That is
my turn
> with the TV. :)-=-=-=
> Creepy.
> -=-=-When I don't take my turn, the rest of the family has it
> on from 6 am to 10 or 11 pm. Lauren will sometimes watch TV for a
while,
> then get up and shut it off and go do something else, usually
playing with
> her sister Rowan (12 mo). The first time I saw that I was
shocked. I had
> never seen a child voluntarily shut off the TV.-=-=-=
>
> Maybe because your viewing was controlled as a child?
> Our children seem to only watch when there's something interesting
on.
> They regularly turn it off to do other things. Amazing? No.
> Expected when it's not limited.
>
> -=-=-=-I see my role of parent as being that of provider and
protector. I see a
> lot of emphasis on provider in all the info I have found on
unschooling, but
> the protector part seems to be overlooked, at least in what I have
found.-=-=-=-
> Right. We're all out to make sure harm comes to our children. The
more
> dangerous, the better.
>
> -=-=-=-There is a reason why humans rear their children for
roughly two decades,
> instead of leaving them to their own devices from day one like
reptiles do.-=-=-
> And now we're leaving them to their own devices? And being
compared to crocodiles????
> How long have you been reading here?
>
> -=-=-=-I need to protect my children from making foolish decisions
that will cause
> themselves pain or harm, and so I step in and give them the
benefit of my
> experience and wisdom. -=-=-=-
> See, I choose to help my children make wiser decisions (and allow
them to make
> a few mistakes---which we call learning-takes) NOW rather than
have all their
> decisions made FOR them and then turn them loose at 18 with no
real handle on
> how to weigh those decisions.
> -=-=-=-Wow, that sounds really condescending, but I can't
> think of a better way to phrase it right now.-=-=-=-
> Yes, it does. To us AND to your children.
> -=-=-=-At such a young age, my
> children don't have the experience or knowledge to make decisions
about what
> kinds of food to eat. The relationship between diet and health is
too
> abstract for them right now. It is easier to relate too much
sugar to an
> upset tummy than it is to relate the fact that you don't have the
flu that
> is going around to the fact that you take cod liver oil every
day. -=-=-=
>
> Huh?
> See, I feel that the honest relationship between me and my
children is MOST important.
> I trust when they say they're hungry or when they're full.
> And cod liver oil every day prevents the flu??? That's a fact?
Call the AMA!
>
> -=-=-=-=- Lauren still doesn't really grasp the idea that she gets
cranky by 5 or 6 pm
> because she didn't take a nap. Then she has temper tantrums and
misbehaves
> and gets yelled at for it and everyone is miserable. She doesn't
like
> getting yelled at, we don't like yelling, and it all could have
been
> prevented with a simple nap.-=-=-=-
> She's TWO? There's a whole lot more to it than that.
> If allowed to learn when she needs sleep, she will nap when she is
tired.
> "Then she has temper tantrums and misbehaves
> and gets yelled at for it and everyone is miserable."
> This one just makes me sad for that little girl. She gets yelled
at for being tired???
> She's blamed for making everyone miserable? She's TWO!
>
>
> -=-=-=-I hope this clarifies my position on "structure".-=-=-=-
>
> No. It does clarify why you *think* you need to control your
children.
> But that has nothing to do with structure.
>
> You might want to read more about unschooling.
>
> ~Kelly, who is usually more forgiving and
> patient on this list. I just got pretty peeved.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 15, 2005, at 1:06 AM, Judy Anderson wrote:
kids eat their dinner. But what it's replaced with isn't another action
like making them a peanut butter sandwich. It's replaced with a whole
philosophy that will help you figure out what to do with your
particular children.
It's a matter of learning to trust that kids understand their needs
better than we do. It's a matter of learning that many of the things we
think are right and important to make them do or stop them from doing
are what are causing them to act as though they can't be trusted.
Conventional parenting is oriented towards molding kids into what we
want them to be. Presumably we want good things for them! Like being
kind, learned, honest, safe. But to get those good things conventional
parenting methods put huge strains on the relationship between parent
and child. And we accept that the strain is normal and natural. It's
not uncommon for a conventional parent to say something to the effect
"I don't care whether you like me or not. It's not my job to be liked.
I want you to get up and do your homework." Or be in before midnight.
Or stop listening to that raunchy music. Not being liked sometimes,
making kids cry, making them really pissed off at us on occasion seems
to be part of the price we need to pay to raise good kids.
But what if unschoolers said the bad parts weren't necessary? What if
unschoolers said they had kids who were kind, learned, honest and safe
and all the other good stuff we want but it was accomplished without
control and without the subsequent fights against the control?
Lots of people would immediately come up with all sorts of scenarios
where kids need forced and assume we're sacrificing our kids health and
safety to avoid making them mad.
But that isn't so.
The first step is to turn off the voice in your head that says "That
can't possibly work," and ask questions as though it did work. :-)
Rather than assuming that kids won't eat, won't brush their teeth,
won't turn off the TV, won't sleep assume that they do and ask how.
Rather than assuming that it works for us because our kids are
naturally good and naturally do all the right things, assume we have
regular kids who would behave as yours do if they were controlled.
Rather than assuming kids need protected from various things, ask how
we help them be safe.
change!
But lots of time we've learned to accept the bad parts of what we're
doing as just the way things need to be so we don't notice the bad
parts. Parents accept that kids will be mad at them and will be sad. It
seems justified that a little anger and sadness is the price they and
we need to pay for something we know is even better.
But it doesn't have to be that way.
And we assure ourselves they'll get over their upsetness.
But in reality every time we pull the "I know what's best for you card"
on them, we chip away at the relationship between us. And the more we
chip, the wider the gap between us becomes. Chipping away at the
relationship is like whacking a big tree with an ax. The stronger the
tree, the less likely it will break. But the ax damages the tree even
if it doesn't fall and even if the wounds heal over. The difference, of
course, is that we can't always see the damage that we've done to
children. We may only realize it when they're teens and they aren't
speaking to us or as adults when they move far far away. And even then
when we did everything we were "supposed" to, it's more likely we'll
blame them as being bad or ungrateful than that we'll see how we pushed
them away.
Someone once characterized relationships like deposits and withdrawals.
Every time we do something that builds a closer relationship it's a
deposit. Every time we do something deliberately -- even if it feels
justified -- to hurt them, it's a withdrawal. If we extend the
principles of unschooling -- trust and respect -- into parenting we can
minimize the withdrawals and actively work at the deposits. And not
only do we end up with great kids but we end up with a stronger
relationship with them.
you didn't particularly like? What if he got frustrated with your lack
of enthusiasm with his meals and wished you would just stop it and eat
properly what he cooked?
A big part of unschooling is trusting kids. Their tastes are different.
Their needs are different. Sometimes they'll tell us things that don't
seem to make sense, like they're hungry 10 minutes after they've eaten.
But if we learn to trust them and respond with respect, the more
they'll learn about themselves and the more we'll learn about who they
are and the better we can help them.
When she was little, my daughter used to eat just about anything. When
she was about 4 her tastes started shutting down. There were just a few
foods that she'd eat and she'd get tired of those. And then when she
was 11 her tastes started opening up again and now at 13 she'll try
just about anything and eats a wide variety of foods. The change wasn't
because I made her eat a wide variety. It was just body chemistry. It
was like for 9 years she lived in a world where nearly everything
tasted like liver and she hated liver. And having people get frustrated
with her for not enjoying a wider range of foods didn't make the liver
taste wonderful. It was just a life of liver *and* frustrated people.
When we treat kids as though their problems were deliberate attempts to
make our lives more difficult we add frustration and uncaring to a
problem they are struggling with and have no idea how to solve.
Sometimes we can't solve their problems. But the least we can do is be
sympathetic and try to see what life is like living as they do with the
needs and lack of skills and lack of control that they do.
exciting going on adults will fight off sleep too. And for little kids
life is exciting so they don't want to miss a moment. But they don't
want to be tired either.
So you ease them into winding down. Find a routine they find soothing
and begin that when you notice they're getting tired. (Not to the point
of being too wound up to wind down.) For instance turn the lights down
lower. Put on soft music or story tape. Rock with them. Read to them.
Do calming things that will relax them. Hold them and talk about their
day and about tomorrow. Have a family bed. Tell them stories. Set up
the environment so it feels like they won't be missing out on things if
they go to sleep.
There isn't a specific thing to do that will work for all kids. The
goal is to associate pleasant things with going to bed. If bedtime is a
negative thing, a time of fighting against control to be in bed at a
specific time, fighting against being separated from their parents,
they'll fight even harder. Against both being controlled and against
the unpleasant associations with going to sleep.
Maybe none of those will work with your kids. Which is why it's hard to
tell someone what to do instead. But when you're committed to helping
them get what they want, when you understand that they aren't trying to
make your life more difficult, you will want to do what you can to help
them find ways to be peaceful.
helping her get what she wants. The hard part is they can seem like the
same thing but when a parent decides a child needs to sleep, to the
child it doesn't feel like the same thing at all.
What if you got tired in the middle of the afternoon and your husband
got irritated with you mentioning it so decided you had to take a nap
at 3 everyday? Would it feel like he was helping you? Or would it feel
like he was just trying to get rid of an annoying problem?
Being made to do something, even something that someone thinks is right
for us, is maddening whether we're children or adults. And children
have the same feelings of anger and irritation that adults do when
they're treated like that. And yet we think kids are good when they do
what others think is right for them but adults with that same trait are
wimps.
What if, instead, your husband took the kids out in the afternoon? Or
let you sleep in in the morning? Or brought you a cup of your favorite
hot beverage while he played with the kids?
When we identify the problem and impose a solution on it, then
implementing the solution then becomes a problem. The problem is no
longer a tired child but making someone take a nap.
*BUT* I wouldn't recommend starting letting go of control with sleep
issues! Start with something easier like food issues ;-) Whenever we
let go of controls, kids -- adults too! -- tend to try to grab as much
of what was controlled as they can get, fearing the controls will
return. So adjusting to new sleeping arrangements can put convictions
to the test. Which is why people recommend saying yes more rather than
telling kids there's no more set bedtimes. Once you're committed to
honoring and respecting and trusting your children, it will be worth
going through the transition from strict bedtimes to helping them get
to sleep when they're tired.
Joyce
> I hear tons of what isYou're right. I think because it's easy to explain how to stop making
> *not* done, but little of what *is* done.
kids eat their dinner. But what it's replaced with isn't another action
like making them a peanut butter sandwich. It's replaced with a whole
philosophy that will help you figure out what to do with your
particular children.
It's a matter of learning to trust that kids understand their needs
better than we do. It's a matter of learning that many of the things we
think are right and important to make them do or stop them from doing
are what are causing them to act as though they can't be trusted.
Conventional parenting is oriented towards molding kids into what we
want them to be. Presumably we want good things for them! Like being
kind, learned, honest, safe. But to get those good things conventional
parenting methods put huge strains on the relationship between parent
and child. And we accept that the strain is normal and natural. It's
not uncommon for a conventional parent to say something to the effect
"I don't care whether you like me or not. It's not my job to be liked.
I want you to get up and do your homework." Or be in before midnight.
Or stop listening to that raunchy music. Not being liked sometimes,
making kids cry, making them really pissed off at us on occasion seems
to be part of the price we need to pay to raise good kids.
But what if unschoolers said the bad parts weren't necessary? What if
unschoolers said they had kids who were kind, learned, honest and safe
and all the other good stuff we want but it was accomplished without
control and without the subsequent fights against the control?
Lots of people would immediately come up with all sorts of scenarios
where kids need forced and assume we're sacrificing our kids health and
safety to avoid making them mad.
But that isn't so.
The first step is to turn off the voice in your head that says "That
can't possibly work," and ask questions as though it did work. :-)
Rather than assuming that kids won't eat, won't brush their teeth,
won't turn off the TV, won't sleep assume that they do and ask how.
Rather than assuming that it works for us because our kids are
naturally good and naturally do all the right things, assume we have
regular kids who would behave as yours do if they were controlled.
Rather than assuming kids need protected from various things, ask how
we help them be safe.
> I know that I can't be doing tooAnd if something seems to be working people will rarely see a need to
> much wrong because everyone tells me what wonderful, happy children I
> have.
change!
But lots of time we've learned to accept the bad parts of what we're
doing as just the way things need to be so we don't notice the bad
parts. Parents accept that kids will be mad at them and will be sad. It
seems justified that a little anger and sadness is the price they and
we need to pay for something we know is even better.
But it doesn't have to be that way.
And we assure ourselves they'll get over their upsetness.
But in reality every time we pull the "I know what's best for you card"
on them, we chip away at the relationship between us. And the more we
chip, the wider the gap between us becomes. Chipping away at the
relationship is like whacking a big tree with an ax. The stronger the
tree, the less likely it will break. But the ax damages the tree even
if it doesn't fall and even if the wounds heal over. The difference, of
course, is that we can't always see the damage that we've done to
children. We may only realize it when they're teens and they aren't
speaking to us or as adults when they move far far away. And even then
when we did everything we were "supposed" to, it's more likely we'll
blame them as being bad or ungrateful than that we'll see how we pushed
them away.
Someone once characterized relationships like deposits and withdrawals.
Every time we do something that builds a closer relationship it's a
deposit. Every time we do something deliberately -- even if it feels
justified -- to hurt them, it's a withdrawal. If we extend the
principles of unschooling -- trust and respect -- into parenting we can
minimize the withdrawals and actively work at the deposits. And not
only do we end up with great kids but we end up with a stronger
relationship with them.
> I sometimes think that they think I have a secret stash ofWhat if your husband took over the cooking but he cooked only things
> food hiding somewhere that is more appealing than whatever I served for
> dinner. I really wish I could figure out how to stop it.
you didn't particularly like? What if he got frustrated with your lack
of enthusiasm with his meals and wished you would just stop it and eat
properly what he cooked?
A big part of unschooling is trusting kids. Their tastes are different.
Their needs are different. Sometimes they'll tell us things that don't
seem to make sense, like they're hungry 10 minutes after they've eaten.
But if we learn to trust them and respond with respect, the more
they'll learn about themselves and the more we'll learn about who they
are and the better we can help them.
When she was little, my daughter used to eat just about anything. When
she was about 4 her tastes started shutting down. There were just a few
foods that she'd eat and she'd get tired of those. And then when she
was 11 her tastes started opening up again and now at 13 she'll try
just about anything and eats a wide variety of foods. The change wasn't
because I made her eat a wide variety. It was just body chemistry. It
was like for 9 years she lived in a world where nearly everything
tasted like liver and she hated liver. And having people get frustrated
with her for not enjoying a wider range of foods didn't make the liver
taste wonderful. It was just a life of liver *and* frustrated people.
When we treat kids as though their problems were deliberate attempts to
make our lives more difficult we add frustration and uncaring to a
problem they are struggling with and have no idea how to solve.
Sometimes we can't solve their problems. But the least we can do is be
sympathetic and try to see what life is like living as they do with the
needs and lack of skills and lack of control that they do.
> How do you help your children recognize when they need sleep? FromPerfectly normal :-) Even for adults. If there's something really
> birth
> mine have all refused to acknowledge that they are tired even as their
> eyes
> droop and their heads fall.
exciting going on adults will fight off sleep too. And for little kids
life is exciting so they don't want to miss a moment. But they don't
want to be tired either.
So you ease them into winding down. Find a routine they find soothing
and begin that when you notice they're getting tired. (Not to the point
of being too wound up to wind down.) For instance turn the lights down
lower. Put on soft music or story tape. Rock with them. Read to them.
Do calming things that will relax them. Hold them and talk about their
day and about tomorrow. Have a family bed. Tell them stories. Set up
the environment so it feels like they won't be missing out on things if
they go to sleep.
There isn't a specific thing to do that will work for all kids. The
goal is to associate pleasant things with going to bed. If bedtime is a
negative thing, a time of fighting against control to be in bed at a
specific time, fighting against being separated from their parents,
they'll fight even harder. Against both being controlled and against
the unpleasant associations with going to sleep.
Maybe none of those will work with your kids. Which is why it's hard to
tell someone what to do instead. But when you're committed to helping
them get what they want, when you understand that they aren't trying to
make your life more difficult, you will want to do what you can to help
them find ways to be peaceful.
> I set a time for them because they haven't shown me that theyThat's because you're focusing on what you want her to do rather than
> will sleep for themselves. Sometimes Lauren does come to me and ask
> me for
> a nap. She has probably done that twice ever and she will be 3 in
> April.
helping her get what she wants. The hard part is they can seem like the
same thing but when a parent decides a child needs to sleep, to the
child it doesn't feel like the same thing at all.
What if you got tired in the middle of the afternoon and your husband
got irritated with you mentioning it so decided you had to take a nap
at 3 everyday? Would it feel like he was helping you? Or would it feel
like he was just trying to get rid of an annoying problem?
Being made to do something, even something that someone thinks is right
for us, is maddening whether we're children or adults. And children
have the same feelings of anger and irritation that adults do when
they're treated like that. And yet we think kids are good when they do
what others think is right for them but adults with that same trait are
wimps.
What if, instead, your husband took the kids out in the afternoon? Or
let you sleep in in the morning? Or brought you a cup of your favorite
hot beverage while he played with the kids?
When we identify the problem and impose a solution on it, then
implementing the solution then becomes a problem. The problem is no
longer a tired child but making someone take a nap.
*BUT* I wouldn't recommend starting letting go of control with sleep
issues! Start with something easier like food issues ;-) Whenever we
let go of controls, kids -- adults too! -- tend to try to grab as much
of what was controlled as they can get, fearing the controls will
return. So adjusting to new sleeping arrangements can put convictions
to the test. Which is why people recommend saying yes more rather than
telling kids there's no more set bedtimes. Once you're committed to
honoring and respecting and trusting your children, it will be worth
going through the transition from strict bedtimes to helping them get
to sleep when they're tired.
Joyce
Judy Anderson
I do have bedtime routine at my house. It starts after dinner, usually
sometime between 7 and 7:30. We brush their teeth, brush their hair and
they all go potty. They say goodnight to Daddy and we go upstairs and put
on pajamas and finish picking up their rooms. We read a story (they
routinely fight over whose turn it is to pick the story) then they each go
to their own rooms and get in bed. I sing them each their own lullaby and
tuck them in. I leave the hallway light on for them and they have a pile of
books on their beds (which we change out every so often) that they may
browse through until they are ready to fall asleep. We do a modified
version of this for naps (just a story and song) and nearly every time that
Lauren decides she is going to kick and scream and thrash to not take a nap,
simply asking her if she wants to go upstairs and read a story is enough to
calm her down and go willingly to her nap. Do you consider that to be
control/coersion? Is there a better way I can do this? Should I even worry
about it until summer when I don't feel pressured to make sure they are up
at a certain time?
Judy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sometime between 7 and 7:30. We brush their teeth, brush their hair and
they all go potty. They say goodnight to Daddy and we go upstairs and put
on pajamas and finish picking up their rooms. We read a story (they
routinely fight over whose turn it is to pick the story) then they each go
to their own rooms and get in bed. I sing them each their own lullaby and
tuck them in. I leave the hallway light on for them and they have a pile of
books on their beds (which we change out every so often) that they may
browse through until they are ready to fall asleep. We do a modified
version of this for naps (just a story and song) and nearly every time that
Lauren decides she is going to kick and scream and thrash to not take a nap,
simply asking her if she wants to go upstairs and read a story is enough to
calm her down and go willingly to her nap. Do you consider that to be
control/coersion? Is there a better way I can do this? Should I even worry
about it until summer when I don't feel pressured to make sure they are up
at a certain time?
Judy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
TreeGoddess
On Mar 15, 2005, at 1:06 AM, Judy Anderson wrote:
-=-I don't know. I sometimes think that they think I have a
secret stash of food hiding somewhere that is more appealing
than whatever I served for dinner. I really wish I could figure
out how to stop it.-=-
Why stop it? They're hungry when they are hungry. They're not when
they're not. If they don't like what the cooked meal is then offer
alternatives to choose from when/if they are hungry. Our stomachs
don't know what time it is -- only that they're empty or satisfied. :)
-Tracy-
"Every moment spent in unhappiness is a moment of
happiness lost." -- Leo Buscaglia
Judy Anderson
*BUT* I wouldn't recommend starting letting go of control with sleep
issues! Start with something easier like food issues ;-) Whenever we
let go of controls, kids -- adults too! -- tend to try to grab as much
of what was controlled as they can get, fearing the controls will
return. So adjusting to new sleeping arrangements can put convictions
to the test. Which is why people recommend saying yes more rather than
telling kids there's no more set bedtimes. Once you're committed to
honoring and respecting and trusting your children, it will be worth
going through the transition from strict bedtimes to helping them get
to sleep when they're tired.
Joyce
I think this is probably the best thing I've read so far. I see that I have
several areas where I can improve and if I try to tackle them all at once, I
know I will fail at all of them. I will start with food, then this summer I
will move to sleep.
Judy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
issues! Start with something easier like food issues ;-) Whenever we
let go of controls, kids -- adults too! -- tend to try to grab as much
of what was controlled as they can get, fearing the controls will
return. So adjusting to new sleeping arrangements can put convictions
to the test. Which is why people recommend saying yes more rather than
telling kids there's no more set bedtimes. Once you're committed to
honoring and respecting and trusting your children, it will be worth
going through the transition from strict bedtimes to helping them get
to sleep when they're tired.
Joyce
I think this is probably the best thing I've read so far. I see that I have
several areas where I can improve and if I try to tackle them all at once, I
know I will fail at all of them. I will start with food, then this summer I
will move to sleep.
Judy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
TreeGoddess
On Mar 15, 2005, at 12:52 AM, Judy Anderson wrote:
-=-See, what I have gotten from these lists is that children
have needs that must be met, but parents don't.-=-
-=-What I have seen indicates that the children are allowed
to make *all* the decisions.-=-
-=-I have read plenty of posts saying that you should never say no
to a child because it hinders their learning process. I have not
seen any posts about saying no to a child to protect them from a
danger they don't understand.-=-
Judy, dear, *please* keep reading because these are NOT the messages
that are being sent out by this list or any of the other unschooling
lists that I'm on. I have never read posts on these lists saying any
of these things -- and if things like these -were- to be said they'd be
corrected by others pretty darn quick. :)
I encourage you to read as much at
http://www.SandraDodd.com/unschooling as you can. I also want to
direct you over to The Natural Child Project at
http://www.naturalchild.org/home/ This web site is chock full of info
and articles on gentle parenting. Love love love it.
-=-I believe in learning from the mistakes of others so you
don't have to repeat them for yourself.-=-
Just because YOU believe that doesn't make it the answer for others
(including your children). Some people can look at a situation and
think that they won't do it because XYZ happened. Not the case for
many many other people. Everyone's learning styles are different and
there are some things that can't be understood with words from others,
but need to be (place verb here) for oneself before learning and
understanding can take place. And maybe a mistake for you isn't a
mistake for someone else. KWIM?
-=-No. Read what I said. I said she misbehaves and gets yelled
at for it. She gets yelled at for hitting her sisters and screaming
at us and throwing things around the house, not for being tired.-=-
Being tired is the cause and those are all things that are the affect
of being tired. Yelling at her doesn't help to center her, to connect
with her, to help her wind down and relax and breathe. My DD (4 last
week) is easily overwhelmed when she's sleepy. She gets cranky and
needs her space and time to herself. If her needs aren't being met
then she does yell and scream and cry. She may hit her brother (5) if
he won't listen to her saying "get away from me!". That's my cue to
step in and try to redirect DS to another activity while letting him
know that sister needs some space and quiet because she's sleepy. I
pick her up and hold her. Comfort her. Lay down with her if she wants
to. It might be more tricky since you have more children than me (2)
but the point is to BE the provider of comfort and calm. Not the one
adding to the chaos and upset. :)
-Tracy-
"Peace *will* enter your life, but you
need to clear a spot for her to sit down."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
TreeGoddess
-=-*BUT* I wouldn't recommend starting letting go of control with
sleep issues! Start with something easier like food issues ;-)
Whenever we let go of controls, kids -- adults too! -- tend to try
to grab as much of what was controlled as they can get, fearing
the controls will return.-=-
And it's not generally recommended that you make an announcement
stating that all foods are now fair game, anytime, anyplace, anything.
Just start by saying "yes" more. DD gets home from school at 4pm . . .
maybe have a snack ready for her to eat right away. OR don't wait for
her to ask at all -- just offer a snack and a smile. And if you don't
have time to prep beforehand and forget to offer then you'll be ready
to cheerfully reply "Yes, baby, what can I get for you?" :)
Start by saying "yes" more as you loosen your controls on eating and
things might go more smoothly for you. Good for you for taking this
first step, Judy! :D
-Tracy-
"Peace *will* enter your life, but you
need to clear a spot for her to sit down."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sleep issues! Start with something easier like food issues ;-)
Whenever we let go of controls, kids -- adults too! -- tend to try
to grab as much of what was controlled as they can get, fearing
the controls will return.-=-
And it's not generally recommended that you make an announcement
stating that all foods are now fair game, anytime, anyplace, anything.
Just start by saying "yes" more. DD gets home from school at 4pm . . .
maybe have a snack ready for her to eat right away. OR don't wait for
her to ask at all -- just offer a snack and a smile. And if you don't
have time to prep beforehand and forget to offer then you'll be ready
to cheerfully reply "Yes, baby, what can I get for you?" :)
Start by saying "yes" more as you loosen your controls on eating and
things might go more smoothly for you. Good for you for taking this
first step, Judy! :D
-Tracy-
"Peace *will* enter your life, but you
need to clear a spot for her to sit down."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
TreeGoddess
Judy,
It's sometimes hard to get naps in when you have younger children that
are pretty close in age. Mine are 20 months apart and often one would
be sleepy and the other one would want to bang pans together instead.
LOL
When my children were smaller and they obviously were tired but they
were "fighting it" I might get the stroller out and take them for a
walk and they'd usually conk out for a while. If the weather wasn't
ideal or I just didn't feel like walking *S* I'd get us all into the
car and just go for a drive. I'd usually set out to drive along the
waterfront or to a park across town or somewhere pleasant to look at.
Nine times out of ten they'd take a nap. I'd bring a drink and a snack
for everyone and also a book or magazine for myself because once they
were good and asleep I'd stop at a park and read while they slept.
It was refreshing just to get out of the house and have a get of
scenery even if nobody fell asleep on our outing. Maybe that's
something that would work for you, too. :)
-Tracy-
"Peace *will* enter your life, but you
need to clear a spot for her to sit down."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's sometimes hard to get naps in when you have younger children that
are pretty close in age. Mine are 20 months apart and often one would
be sleepy and the other one would want to bang pans together instead.
LOL
When my children were smaller and they obviously were tired but they
were "fighting it" I might get the stroller out and take them for a
walk and they'd usually conk out for a while. If the weather wasn't
ideal or I just didn't feel like walking *S* I'd get us all into the
car and just go for a drive. I'd usually set out to drive along the
waterfront or to a park across town or somewhere pleasant to look at.
Nine times out of ten they'd take a nap. I'd bring a drink and a snack
for everyone and also a book or magazine for myself because once they
were good and asleep I'd stop at a park and read while they slept.
It was refreshing just to get out of the house and have a get of
scenery even if nobody fell asleep on our outing. Maybe that's
something that would work for you, too. :)
-Tracy-
"Peace *will* enter your life, but you
need to clear a spot for her to sit down."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jnjstau
<<<I do have bedtime routine at my house. >>>
I think most families with small children do. I have 5 kids, 3
within 3 years of each other and they share bedrooms. We have to
have some kind of routine because the kids have trouble remembering
not to be too loud or too rambunctious to not wake the other kids.
I think there is a difference between routine and absolute rules. I
know families where the kids are in bed by 8:00 no matter what. My
younger ones are usually in bed by 9:00 but not if they have a tv
show they really want to watch or we have company or they fell
asleep at dinnertime or whatever.
I think unschooling is looking at the situation and working with
what is really happening. My now 5yo gets really cranky by supper
time. She would cry and whine about every real or imagined slight.
So I looked at things that helped her sleep and suggested those or
got those moving during the afternoon. Example: she loves to sleep
in my bed so I might suggest if she wanted to take her blanket into
my room and listen to the radio since she seemed tired. She loves
to cuddle with her oldest sister so I would ask her if she wanted to
watch a movie with Adriane (after I had already checked with
Adriane). She would happily drift off to sleep and the entire house
was happier. If all else fails, I would do reflexology on her feet
and off she goes.
Julie S.---who still after 6 years can't get a handle on the food
thing <sigh>
I think most families with small children do. I have 5 kids, 3
within 3 years of each other and they share bedrooms. We have to
have some kind of routine because the kids have trouble remembering
not to be too loud or too rambunctious to not wake the other kids.
I think there is a difference between routine and absolute rules. I
know families where the kids are in bed by 8:00 no matter what. My
younger ones are usually in bed by 9:00 but not if they have a tv
show they really want to watch or we have company or they fell
asleep at dinnertime or whatever.
I think unschooling is looking at the situation and working with
what is really happening. My now 5yo gets really cranky by supper
time. She would cry and whine about every real or imagined slight.
So I looked at things that helped her sleep and suggested those or
got those moving during the afternoon. Example: she loves to sleep
in my bed so I might suggest if she wanted to take her blanket into
my room and listen to the radio since she seemed tired. She loves
to cuddle with her oldest sister so I would ask her if she wanted to
watch a movie with Adriane (after I had already checked with
Adriane). She would happily drift off to sleep and the entire house
was happier. If all else fails, I would do reflexology on her feet
and off she goes.
Julie S.---who still after 6 years can't get a handle on the food
thing <sigh>
Judy Anderson
Okay. I just let my 2yo have 2 snacks! She asked me for snack at 9:50 and
I said sure (ten minutes before "snacktime"). I gave her her leftover ice
cream from yesterday. Then she came and asked for a second snack. I said
okay. I offered her a sandwich, which she said yes to, but in the process
it morphed from a ham and cheese sandwich to just two slices of ham rolled
up. We are all out of cheese, so I offered her a ham only sandwich. Then I
asked if she wanted one slice of bread or two and she said she wanted the
ham rolled up. She then declined any bread at all. She seems satisfied
with that because she hasn't asked for anything else to eat yet.
On a side note, one reason I really want to do this is because I see what a
difference EC has made in my babies' lives. EC is elimination
communication, basically learning when your baby needs to go potty and
taking them instead of putting them in diapers all day. Lauren took over
her own potty needs around 18 months old, and I am successful with Rowan
about half of the time now. They both get to run around naked at home all
they want and I have started taking Rowan out on short trips without a
diaper. I first started it to save money on diapers, but then I saw that
they were happier without diapers and realized that not paying attention and
making them sit in wet or messy diapers really is cruel.
Judy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I said sure (ten minutes before "snacktime"). I gave her her leftover ice
cream from yesterday. Then she came and asked for a second snack. I said
okay. I offered her a sandwich, which she said yes to, but in the process
it morphed from a ham and cheese sandwich to just two slices of ham rolled
up. We are all out of cheese, so I offered her a ham only sandwich. Then I
asked if she wanted one slice of bread or two and she said she wanted the
ham rolled up. She then declined any bread at all. She seems satisfied
with that because she hasn't asked for anything else to eat yet.
On a side note, one reason I really want to do this is because I see what a
difference EC has made in my babies' lives. EC is elimination
communication, basically learning when your baby needs to go potty and
taking them instead of putting them in diapers all day. Lauren took over
her own potty needs around 18 months old, and I am successful with Rowan
about half of the time now. They both get to run around naked at home all
they want and I have started taking Rowan out on short trips without a
diaper. I first started it to save money on diapers, but then I saw that
they were happier without diapers and realized that not paying attention and
making them sit in wet or messy diapers really is cruel.
Judy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Anderson temair@...
I think this is probably the best thing I've read so far. I see that I have
several areas where I can improve and if I try to tackle them all at once, I
know I will fail at all of them. I will start with food, then this summer I
will move to sleep.<<<<
Yeah, Joyce is amazing. Calm voice of reason on all the unschooling lists! <g>
And I wasn't passive aggressive. Just plain aggressive! <g> Long day. Taking it out on you. Sorry.
You've been reading about unschooling for a month or so. Your daughter is in Kindergarten. Several of your problems are already school-related (food, sleep, tv).
Any reason you're not pulling her out of school already?
In six years of reading, I've NEVER heard ONE mon say, I'm glad I waited to take her out of school. Not one. Not ever.
There's a reason you're looking into unschooling. Is Kindergarten giving her something you cannot? Is it damaging her in some way(s) so that you're thinking of alternatives?
Why wait? What's stopping you from keeping her home tomorrow?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Judy Anderson temair@...
I think this is probably the best thing I've read so far. I see that I have
several areas where I can improve and if I try to tackle them all at once, I
know I will fail at all of them. I will start with food, then this summer I
will move to sleep.<<<<
Yeah, Joyce is amazing. Calm voice of reason on all the unschooling lists! <g>
And I wasn't passive aggressive. Just plain aggressive! <g> Long day. Taking it out on you. Sorry.
You've been reading about unschooling for a month or so. Your daughter is in Kindergarten. Several of your problems are already school-related (food, sleep, tv).
Any reason you're not pulling her out of school already?
In six years of reading, I've NEVER heard ONE mon say, I'm glad I waited to take her out of school. Not one. Not ever.
There's a reason you're looking into unschooling. Is Kindergarten giving her something you cannot? Is it damaging her in some way(s) so that you're thinking of alternatives?
Why wait? What's stopping you from keeping her home tomorrow?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Judy Anderson
Thank you for the apology. I was stunned at the tone and I'm afraid I went
to bed crying last night. The first thing I did this morning was to come
and see what others had to say. I was so relieved to see a different tone
in the inbox.
My daughter mostly enjoys going to kindergarten. Before kindergarten she
had no friends. I am a bit of a homebody and we don't have neighbors, just
businesses all aroud us. I have always wanted to homeschool. I saw my
brothers both get coded and lost in the school system until they dropped
out. I am continuously learning more horrifying things about the public
school system, like the fact that 2/3 of high school graduates are not able
to pass the GED. Also, at the time I was working and couldn't stay home to
homeschool her. I felt that kindergarten was harmless enough and would give
her some social contacts that I had failed to give her. She has been
wanting to go to school ever since her older (half-) sister started school.
My oldest lives with her dad and we have her most weekends and for summer
vacation. She is 8 and in 3rd grade. I want to let Moira finish out the
school year (it's only three more months) since she does seem to enjoy
going, some days more so than others. It will also make it easier to deal
with the SAU if we start between school years rather than in the middle.
Judy
-----Original Message-----
From: kbcdlovejo@... [mailto:kbcdlovejo@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 10:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] structure?????
-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Anderson temair@...
I think this is probably the best thing I've read so far. I see that I
have
several areas where I can improve and if I try to tackle them all at once,
I
know I will fail at all of them. I will start with food, then this summer
I
will move to sleep.<<<<
Yeah, Joyce is amazing. Calm voice of reason on all the unschooling lists!
<g>
And I wasn't passive aggressive. Just plain aggressive! <g> Long day.
Taking it out on you. Sorry.
You've been reading about unschooling for a month or so. Your daughter is
in Kindergarten. Several of your problems are already school-related (food,
sleep, tv).
Any reason you're not pulling her out of school already?
In six years of reading, I've NEVER heard ONE mon say, I'm glad I waited
to take her out of school. Not one. Not ever.
There's a reason you're looking into unschooling. Is Kindergarten giving
her something you cannot? Is it damaging her in some way(s) so that you're
thinking of alternatives?
Why wait? What's stopping you from keeping her home tomorrow?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to bed crying last night. The first thing I did this morning was to come
and see what others had to say. I was so relieved to see a different tone
in the inbox.
My daughter mostly enjoys going to kindergarten. Before kindergarten she
had no friends. I am a bit of a homebody and we don't have neighbors, just
businesses all aroud us. I have always wanted to homeschool. I saw my
brothers both get coded and lost in the school system until they dropped
out. I am continuously learning more horrifying things about the public
school system, like the fact that 2/3 of high school graduates are not able
to pass the GED. Also, at the time I was working and couldn't stay home to
homeschool her. I felt that kindergarten was harmless enough and would give
her some social contacts that I had failed to give her. She has been
wanting to go to school ever since her older (half-) sister started school.
My oldest lives with her dad and we have her most weekends and for summer
vacation. She is 8 and in 3rd grade. I want to let Moira finish out the
school year (it's only three more months) since she does seem to enjoy
going, some days more so than others. It will also make it easier to deal
with the SAU if we start between school years rather than in the middle.
Judy
-----Original Message-----
From: kbcdlovejo@... [mailto:kbcdlovejo@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 10:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] structure?????
-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Anderson temair@...
I think this is probably the best thing I've read so far. I see that I
have
several areas where I can improve and if I try to tackle them all at once,
I
know I will fail at all of them. I will start with food, then this summer
I
will move to sleep.<<<<
Yeah, Joyce is amazing. Calm voice of reason on all the unschooling lists!
<g>
And I wasn't passive aggressive. Just plain aggressive! <g> Long day.
Taking it out on you. Sorry.
You've been reading about unschooling for a month or so. Your daughter is
in Kindergarten. Several of your problems are already school-related (food,
sleep, tv).
Any reason you're not pulling her out of school already?
In six years of reading, I've NEVER heard ONE mon say, I'm glad I waited
to take her out of school. Not one. Not ever.
There's a reason you're looking into unschooling. Is Kindergarten giving
her something you cannot? Is it damaging her in some way(s) so that you're
thinking of alternatives?
Why wait? What's stopping you from keeping her home tomorrow?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
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a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
TreeGoddess
On Mar 15, 2005, at 10:30 AM, Judy Anderson wrote:
Okay. I just let my 2yo have 2 snacks! She asked me for snack at 9:50
and
I said sure (ten minutes before "snacktime"). I gave her her leftover
ice
cream from yesterday. Then she came and asked for a second snack. I
said
okay. I offered her a sandwich, which she said yes to, but in the
process
it morphed from a ham and cheese sandwich to just two slices of ham
rolled
up. We are all out of cheese, so I offered her a ham only sandwich.
Then I
asked if she wanted one slice of bread or two and she said she wanted
the
ham rolled up. She then declined any bread at all. She seems satisfied
with that because she hasn't asked for anything else to eat yet.
>>>
Judy, I'm so happy for you guys! That wasn't too hard was it? :)
She's happy; you're happy. Life is good!
-Tracy-
"Peace *will* enter your life, but you
need to clear a spot for her to sit down."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Anderson <temair@...>
I first started it to save money on diapers, but then I saw that
they were happier without diapers and realized that not paying attention and
making them sit in wet or messy diapers really is cruel.<<<<
I first started it to save money on private school, but then I saw that
they were happier without tests and grading and school and realized that
not paying attention to them and
making them sit in a small classroom all day with a bunch of strangers really is cruel.
<g>
I first started it to save money on food, but then I saw that
they were happier without scheduled mealtimes and realized that not paying attention
to their bodies and their own hunger pangs and
making them sit and finish a meal or sit and wait for a snack really is cruel.
Parents can be incredibly cruel without thinking about it.
A HUGE part of unschooling is questioning WHY we do/say something.
Thinking about how and why is the basis for our parenting and unschooling.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Judy Anderson <temair@...>
I first started it to save money on diapers, but then I saw that
they were happier without diapers and realized that not paying attention and
making them sit in wet or messy diapers really is cruel.<<<<
I first started it to save money on private school, but then I saw that
they were happier without tests and grading and school and realized that
not paying attention to them and
making them sit in a small classroom all day with a bunch of strangers really is cruel.
<g>
I first started it to save money on food, but then I saw that
they were happier without scheduled mealtimes and realized that not paying attention
to their bodies and their own hunger pangs and
making them sit and finish a meal or sit and wait for a snack really is cruel.
Parents can be incredibly cruel without thinking about it.
A HUGE part of unschooling is questioning WHY we do/say something.
Thinking about how and why is the basis for our parenting and unschooling.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Mar 15, 2005, at 6:45 AM, Judy Anderson wrote:
The difference between what you're describing and a more unschooling
approach is that the "trigger" for the routine to start up is you
watching the clock versus the kids (and you) paying attention to their
actual state of being.
7 pm seems so early, too, to start ending the evening - I mean,
assuming you're ending dinner between 5:30 and 6:30 - that means your
kids have NO after-dinner evening family time? Is your husband home
during the day or something? Otherwise, they don't have time to hang
out together in the evenings at all?
(I know you have to get them up early - but they are taking naps, too.)
-pam
> I do have bedtime routine at my house. It starts after dinner, usuallyWhether or not they're getting sleepy then?
> sometime between 7 and 7:30.
The difference between what you're describing and a more unschooling
approach is that the "trigger" for the routine to start up is you
watching the clock versus the kids (and you) paying attention to their
actual state of being.
7 pm seems so early, too, to start ending the evening - I mean,
assuming you're ending dinner between 5:30 and 6:30 - that means your
kids have NO after-dinner evening family time? Is your husband home
during the day or something? Otherwise, they don't have time to hang
out together in the evenings at all?
(I know you have to get them up early - but they are taking naps, too.)
-pam
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Anderson <temair@...>
Thank you for the apology. I was stunned at the tone and I'm afraid I went
to bed crying last night. The first thing I did this morning was to come
and see what others had to say. I was so relieved to see a different tone
in the inbox.<<<
You're welcome.
We started this group to give folks a place to ask VERY basic unschooling questions,
but I still get peeved. I also sometimes forget which list I'm on when I write! <g>
I'm supposed to be NICE here! <G>
going, some days more so than others.<<<<
Have you asked HER what *she* wants to do?
You could make school optional. It's only kindergarten after all! And not complusory.
You could make her days home much more attractive than her days at school, so she
will *want* to stay home with you next year!
What's an SAU?
She will KNOW you value her opinion if you let her in on the decision-making!
And pulling her out in the middle makes you both look and feel more powerful!
Remember: ask yourself WHY???
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Judy Anderson <temair@...>
Thank you for the apology. I was stunned at the tone and I'm afraid I went
to bed crying last night. The first thing I did this morning was to come
and see what others had to say. I was so relieved to see a different tone
in the inbox.<<<
You're welcome.
We started this group to give folks a place to ask VERY basic unschooling questions,
but I still get peeved. I also sometimes forget which list I'm on when I write! <g>
I'm supposed to be NICE here! <G>
>>>> I felt that kindergarten was harmless enough<<<<We have a lot of evidence for just the opposite!
>>> I want to let Moira finish out theschool year (it's only three more months) since she does seem to enjoy
going, some days more so than others.<<<<
Have you asked HER what *she* wants to do?
You could make school optional. It's only kindergarten after all! And not complusory.
You could make her days home much more attractive than her days at school, so she
will *want* to stay home with you next year!
>>>> It will also make it easier to dealwith the SAU if we start between school years rather than in the middle.<<<
What's an SAU?
She will KNOW you value her opinion if you let her in on the decision-making!
And pulling her out in the middle makes you both look and feel more powerful!
Remember: ask yourself WHY???
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Judy Anderson
Yes, my husband is home all day. At least for now. He is a landscaper and
the season hasn't started here yet. He is hoping to be back to work in a
month or so. I generally try to get dinner on the table between 6 and 6:30.
I spoke to DH this morning after reading here some and he is okay with my
moving dinner to 4ish, so I will start doing that. I hope that will give
more evening relaxation time so that they will naturally wind down. But I
still think I will hold off on letting go control of sleep until I succeed
with food. Lauren is now on her fourth "snack". Ack! :)
Judy
-----Original Message-----
From: Pam Sorooshian [mailto:pamsoroosh@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 11:06 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] bedtimes
the season hasn't started here yet. He is hoping to be back to work in a
month or so. I generally try to get dinner on the table between 6 and 6:30.
I spoke to DH this morning after reading here some and he is okay with my
moving dinner to 4ish, so I will start doing that. I hope that will give
more evening relaxation time so that they will naturally wind down. But I
still think I will hold off on letting go control of sleep until I succeed
with food. Lauren is now on her fourth "snack". Ack! :)
Judy
-----Original Message-----
From: Pam Sorooshian [mailto:pamsoroosh@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 11:06 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] bedtimes
On Mar 15, 2005, at 6:45 AM, Judy Anderson wrote:
> I do have bedtime routine at my house. It starts after dinner, usually
> sometime between 7 and 7:30.
Whether or not they're getting sleepy then?
The difference between what you're describing and a more unschooling
approach is that the "trigger" for the routine to start up is you
watching the clock versus the kids (and you) paying attention to their
actual state of being.
7 pm seems so early, too, to start ending the evening - I mean,
assuming you're ending dinner between 5:30 and 6:30 - that means your
kids have NO after-dinner evening family time? Is your husband home
during the day or something? Otherwise, they don't have time to hang
out together in the evenings at all?
(I know you have to get them up early - but they are taking naps, too.)
-pam
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a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
scrapgal
--- In [email protected], "Judy Anderson" < I feel
like I am being
many decisions regarding my children the more I started
understanding what all these seasoned moms were talking about. I
think that Kelly was trying to point out how UNunschooling many of
your thoughts and actions are. Lauren's napping was one way that I
100% agree with her. Your yelling at Lauren for hitting her sister
is based in her not having a nap. If she were well rested she
wouldn't be cranky and irritable and hitting her sister. So in a
sense her being punished for hitting her sister is really being
punished for not getting a nap. It's all interconnected. And you
might be surprised that Lauren is viewing it the same way,
especially if you say things like, "If you had taken your nap....."
I hope you will stay around and read more (and ask more) and take
the big dive into the unschooling pond. Your household may seem
chaotic at first, but in time it will settle down into a sort of
chaord that is well grooved with your family.
Michelle
like I am being
> attacked for my ignorance and must defend myself. I hope thatthat changes.
>Judy, I felt like that when I first joined, but the more I let go of
many decisions regarding my children the more I started
understanding what all these seasoned moms were talking about. I
think that Kelly was trying to point out how UNunschooling many of
your thoughts and actions are. Lauren's napping was one way that I
100% agree with her. Your yelling at Lauren for hitting her sister
is based in her not having a nap. If she were well rested she
wouldn't be cranky and irritable and hitting her sister. So in a
sense her being punished for hitting her sister is really being
punished for not getting a nap. It's all interconnected. And you
might be surprised that Lauren is viewing it the same way,
especially if you say things like, "If you had taken your nap....."
I hope you will stay around and read more (and ask more) and take
the big dive into the unschooling pond. Your household may seem
chaotic at first, but in time it will settle down into a sort of
chaord that is well grooved with your family.
Michelle
Judy Anderson
SAU is School Administrative Unit. It the office of the superintendent of
that school district. How could I explain to the school that I will let her
decide each morning if she wants to go or not? I want to cooperate with
them, not fight them. My parents' experience showed me that taking a child
out of school is much, much easier when the school district is willing to
work with you, which is a reciprocation of your being willing to work with
them. I like the idea of changing a system from within the system.
I suppose I could broach the subject with her this evening.
Judy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that school district. How could I explain to the school that I will let her
decide each morning if she wants to go or not? I want to cooperate with
them, not fight them. My parents' experience showed me that taking a child
out of school is much, much easier when the school district is willing to
work with you, which is a reciprocation of your being willing to work with
them. I like the idea of changing a system from within the system.
I suppose I could broach the subject with her this evening.
Judy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Mar 15, 2005, at 8:31 AM, Judy Anderson wrote:
think you're in for a rude awakening. They won't care about her when
they aren't getting funded for her. They'll want to keep her, yes, but
once you've pulled her out, she isn't their responsibility.
In which state do you live?
-pam
> My parents' experience showed me that taking a childDo you plan to "work with them" once you've pulled her out of school? I
> out of school is much, much easier when the school district is willing
> to
> work with you, which is a reciprocation of your being willing to work
> with
> them. I like the idea of changing a system from within the system.
think you're in for a rude awakening. They won't care about her when
they aren't getting funded for her. They'll want to keep her, yes, but
once you've pulled her out, she isn't their responsibility.
In which state do you live?
-pam
scrapgal
--- In [email protected], "Judy Anderson"
<temair@a...> wrote:
You learned to trust your children with their eliminations. And now
you are starting to trust them with their food choices as well.
BTW, just a suggestion, the next time your child tells you that she
is hungry instead of making a suggestion, ask what she is hungry
for. You may be surprised.
Michelle
<temair@a...> wrote:
> On a side note, one reason I really want to do this is because Isee what a
> difference EC has made in my babies' lives. EC is eliminationand
> communication, basically learning when your baby needs to go potty
> taking them instead of putting them in diapers all day.See, you already have that Unschooling gene working in your life.
You learned to trust your children with their eliminations. And now
you are starting to trust them with their food choices as well.
BTW, just a suggestion, the next time your child tells you that she
is hungry instead of making a suggestion, ask what she is hungry
for. You may be surprised.
Michelle
scrapgal
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
They all tend to ask questions in that tone of "voice" Sometimes it
is hard to read unless you think of it as such. It's their way of
making you question what it is you are doing and WHY! (Of course
lately I've been playing devil's advocate on the
pensacolaunschoolers list :-D )
Michelle
>afraid I went
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Judy Anderson <temair@a...>
>
>
>
> Thank you for the apology. I was stunned at the tone and I'm
> to bed crying last night. The first thing I did this morning wasto come
> and see what others had to say. I was so relieved to see adifferent tone
> in the inbox.<<<unschooling questions,
>
> You're welcome.
> We started this group to give folks a place to ask VERY basic
> but I still get peeved. I also sometimes forget which list I'm onwhen I write! <g>
> I'm supposed to be NICE here! <G>I've come to think of Kelly and Pam and Ren as "devil's advocate"
>
>
They all tend to ask questions in that tone of "voice" Sometimes it
is hard to read unless you think of it as such. It's their way of
making you question what it is you are doing and WHY! (Of course
lately I've been playing devil's advocate on the
pensacolaunschoolers list :-D )
Michelle
scrapgal
--- In [email protected], "Judy Anderson"
<temair@a...> wrote:
district to homeschool? Do you have to turn in a curriculum or
study plan? Do you *have* to? Do you have the option of being
under an umbrella school? Or are you in one of those lucky states
where you just say, "We are now homeschooling"? There are just a
handful of states that still have very strict homeschooling laws and
most of them have ways around those laws (such as through cover or
umbrella schools.)
Michelle
<temair@a...> wrote:
> SAU is School Administrative Unit. It the office of thesuperintendent of
> that school district. How could I explain to the school that Iwill let her
> decide each morning if she wants to go or not? I want tocooperate with
> them, not fight them. My parents' experience showed me thattaking a child
> out of school is much, much easier when the school district iswilling to
> work with you, which is a reciprocation of your being willing towork with
> them. I like the idea of changing a system from within the system.What state are you in that you have to work with your school
district to homeschool? Do you have to turn in a curriculum or
study plan? Do you *have* to? Do you have the option of being
under an umbrella school? Or are you in one of those lucky states
where you just say, "We are now homeschooling"? There are just a
handful of states that still have very strict homeschooling laws and
most of them have ways around those laws (such as through cover or
umbrella schools.)
Michelle
Angela S
<<<But I
still think I will hold off on letting go control of sleep until I succeed
with food. Lauren is now on her fourth "snack". Ack! :)>>>
A big part of making the whole unschooling food thing work is changing your
attitude about food. If you are thinking, "Ack, she is snacking again" it
isn't going to make the transition any easier. What food is she snacking
on? Can you keep easy to prepare healthy foods available for her to eat
when she pleases without thinking, "Ack, she is snacking again." Why does
it matter if she eats her food in many small meals (snacks, which is more
natural) or in larger meals at a selected dinner time?
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
still think I will hold off on letting go control of sleep until I succeed
with food. Lauren is now on her fourth "snack". Ack! :)>>>
A big part of making the whole unschooling food thing work is changing your
attitude about food. If you are thinking, "Ack, she is snacking again" it
isn't going to make the transition any easier. What food is she snacking
on? Can you keep easy to prepare healthy foods available for her to eat
when she pleases without thinking, "Ack, she is snacking again." Why does
it matter if she eats her food in many small meals (snacks, which is more
natural) or in larger meals at a selected dinner time?
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]