nighttime questions
regan
Up till now, my son (almost 4) has gone to bed in the evenings like this: I estimate a likely sleepy time (based on what time he got up and tired he seems) and then guide the evening in that direction. He gets in PJs and brushes teeth at some point, and has some herbal tea. We read books and play quiet games, and eventually he says, "Let's go to bed," and we do. I lie down with him (family bed) till he's asleep, and then get up and do the things I can't do while I'm with him in the daytime -- pay bills, email my mother, pre-watch the videos he wants me to check for him, back up stuff he created on the iPad, bits of my own work, etc. His dad comes home from work and we talk about our days and then join our son in bed. In the morning, we all get up together and my son plays one-on-one with his dad while I prep food for the day, then dad goes to work.
Lately, he's been talking about staying up later, and I want to facilitate that. My question is, what might that look like?
I have read all of Sandra's pages on sleep, and there are some differences in our family that make it hard for me to picture. First, my son doesn't enjoy many tv/movies. He's very particular about content -- he doesn't like anything with music, surprises, characters facing problems, human actors -- he may someday, but right now, he doesn't want to see anything "new". He has a few well-worn videos that he likes, but not that many. Second, he has rarely/never just fallen asleep in the midst of anything. When he was an infant, he didn't fall asleep in the carrier or the stroller. He doesn't sleep in the car -- not even a three hour car ride at night after a long day of swimming. I think it would be great if he could figure out how to sleep, and just crash when he's tired, but I think it may take some experimenting.
It seems like it might help him to figure out when he's tired if I sort of draw back as it gets late and let him loll on the floor with toys and games, but here's how that played out recently:
Sunday night he said he didn't want to go to bed, so I just let him play nearby while I paid the bills. It didn't feel quite right to do it this way, however. It seemed a little arbitrary, like "since it's after 10 pm, now you play on your own." He didn't seem to mind, but eventually called me over because was upset that he had put some peppercorns in his nose -- he cried; I suggested that he was tired, brought him to bed, and it took him another 45 minutes to fall asleep. The next morning, he slept in and missed seeing his dad before work. That part almost felt like a negative consequence, like, stay up late = no one playing with you = no dad in the morning.
What are some other ways I can help my son stay up late and find his way to peaceful sleep, without sacrificing dad time?
Thanks,
Regan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lately, he's been talking about staying up later, and I want to facilitate that. My question is, what might that look like?
I have read all of Sandra's pages on sleep, and there are some differences in our family that make it hard for me to picture. First, my son doesn't enjoy many tv/movies. He's very particular about content -- he doesn't like anything with music, surprises, characters facing problems, human actors -- he may someday, but right now, he doesn't want to see anything "new". He has a few well-worn videos that he likes, but not that many. Second, he has rarely/never just fallen asleep in the midst of anything. When he was an infant, he didn't fall asleep in the carrier or the stroller. He doesn't sleep in the car -- not even a three hour car ride at night after a long day of swimming. I think it would be great if he could figure out how to sleep, and just crash when he's tired, but I think it may take some experimenting.
It seems like it might help him to figure out when he's tired if I sort of draw back as it gets late and let him loll on the floor with toys and games, but here's how that played out recently:
Sunday night he said he didn't want to go to bed, so I just let him play nearby while I paid the bills. It didn't feel quite right to do it this way, however. It seemed a little arbitrary, like "since it's after 10 pm, now you play on your own." He didn't seem to mind, but eventually called me over because was upset that he had put some peppercorns in his nose -- he cried; I suggested that he was tired, brought him to bed, and it took him another 45 minutes to fall asleep. The next morning, he slept in and missed seeing his dad before work. That part almost felt like a negative consequence, like, stay up late = no one playing with you = no dad in the morning.
What are some other ways I can help my son stay up late and find his way to peaceful sleep, without sacrificing dad time?
Thanks,
Regan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
regan <regan@...> wrote:
Sometimes when a bunch of assumptions or goals get rolled together like that, it make it harder to find solutions. Step back from the desire for A solution and instead look for a bunch of tools, options, and ideas which move you (y'all) closer to your goals.
So... is the only time he has with dad in the morning? Change is part of growing up - you're not Going to be able to keep the same routine indefinately. So it will help to look for other ways for your son and husband to get their needs met without holding on to the same schedule. Can they spend more time together in the early evening? Could dad take over some of the "bed time" stuff - pajamas and teeth and tea?
Changing the bedtime routine can work in other ways, too. Depending on why your son wants to stay up, changing the routine could give him what he's looking for - do those things earlier in the evening so he has more time to play afterwards. That could give him the feeling of a longer night, by moving those transitional markers earlier. Like... I don't like a late dinner because it makes the evening seem to short to me, and I'm more likely to stay up later and short myself on sleep.
Or maybe it would be better to adjust your "lets get ready for bed" routine so you start later - make a mental note, reset your personal clock a little, but still do essentially the same things and adjust mornings accordingly.
Don't forget, you're learning about your kid and how to be his partner, while he's learning about sleep and night-time and decisions and routines and you and whatever his interests are... Everything isn't going to go smoothly all the time, and that's okay. The not-so-smooth times are an important part of the process!
On that front, it could help to step back from the idea of a Peaceful transition to sleep - because some kids go through an odd phase of crying to sleep. Althea Solter has some ideas about that in... Tears and Tantrums, I think. I know my daughter went through a stage like that right around your son's age - for something like a year she'd cry herself to sleep. It was... weird. But it seemed like a way to manage that uncomfortable transition between wakefulness and sleep.
Experimenting is a big part of how people learn - adults as much as kids. To an extent, he's Going to be experimenting with the transition between waking and sleeping no matter what you do. So it might help to consider yourself his research assistant! Right now, he might need you to help him settle down. Chances are, that won't always be the case, though ;)
---Meredith
>> What are some other ways I can help my son stay up late and find his way to peaceful sleep, without sacrificing dad time?*************
Sometimes when a bunch of assumptions or goals get rolled together like that, it make it harder to find solutions. Step back from the desire for A solution and instead look for a bunch of tools, options, and ideas which move you (y'all) closer to your goals.
So... is the only time he has with dad in the morning? Change is part of growing up - you're not Going to be able to keep the same routine indefinately. So it will help to look for other ways for your son and husband to get their needs met without holding on to the same schedule. Can they spend more time together in the early evening? Could dad take over some of the "bed time" stuff - pajamas and teeth and tea?
Changing the bedtime routine can work in other ways, too. Depending on why your son wants to stay up, changing the routine could give him what he's looking for - do those things earlier in the evening so he has more time to play afterwards. That could give him the feeling of a longer night, by moving those transitional markers earlier. Like... I don't like a late dinner because it makes the evening seem to short to me, and I'm more likely to stay up later and short myself on sleep.
Or maybe it would be better to adjust your "lets get ready for bed" routine so you start later - make a mental note, reset your personal clock a little, but still do essentially the same things and adjust mornings accordingly.
Don't forget, you're learning about your kid and how to be his partner, while he's learning about sleep and night-time and decisions and routines and you and whatever his interests are... Everything isn't going to go smoothly all the time, and that's okay. The not-so-smooth times are an important part of the process!
On that front, it could help to step back from the idea of a Peaceful transition to sleep - because some kids go through an odd phase of crying to sleep. Althea Solter has some ideas about that in... Tears and Tantrums, I think. I know my daughter went through a stage like that right around your son's age - for something like a year she'd cry herself to sleep. It was... weird. But it seemed like a way to manage that uncomfortable transition between wakefulness and sleep.
>I think it would be great if he could figure out how to sleep, and just crash when he's tired, but I think it may take some experimenting.******************
Experimenting is a big part of how people learn - adults as much as kids. To an extent, he's Going to be experimenting with the transition between waking and sleeping no matter what you do. So it might help to consider yourself his research assistant! Right now, he might need you to help him settle down. Chances are, that won't always be the case, though ;)
---Meredith
Jo Isaac
Meredith wrote: ==Change is part of growing up - you're not Going to be able to keep the same routine indefinately==
That is exactly what I was thinking when I read your post. Don't overthink change, it's going to happen. My son went through a quite unsettled night-time phase at around 3-4. He went to bed really late, and was waking up early regardless. It was just a short-lived phase though...
If your son wants to stay up late, offer things for him to do. You could read to him, he could play computer/iPad/iPod games, set up pencils and paper. If he's going to bed later, he'll likely be sleeping in (eventually, anyway), so you can do your jobs then...he'll also be getting older and you'll find you can do things like pay your bills, and send emails, when he's busy doing something else in the daytime.
There surely must be plenty of time to see his Dad in the evenings? My son very rarely see's Dad before work (he leaves at 7.40am, gets home at 6pm) - but they do lots together at night - play chess, wrestle, read, watch their favourite TV shows together.
Try not to envisage the the future, because you can't know it. If a new bedtime routine evolves, let it evolve - it might look totally different to how you are imagining it :)
Jo
To: [email protected]
From: plaidpanties666@...
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 19:11:16 +0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: nighttime questions
regan wrote:
Sometimes when a bunch of assumptions or goals get rolled together like that, it make it harder to find solutions. Step back from the desire for A solution and instead look for a bunch of tools, options, and ideas which move you (y'all) closer to your goals.
So... is the only time he has with dad in the morning? Change is part of growing up - you're not Going to be able to keep the same routine indefinately. So it will help to look for other ways for your son and husband to get their needs met without holding on to the same schedule. Can they spend more time together in the early evening? Could dad take over some of the "bed time" stuff - pajamas and teeth and tea?
Changing the bedtime routine can work in other ways, too. Depending on why your son wants to stay up, changing the routine could give him what he's looking for - do those things earlier in the evening so he has more time to play afterwards. That could give him the feeling of a longer night, by moving those transitional markers earlier. Like... I don't like a late dinner because it makes the evening seem to short to me, and I'm more likely to stay up later and short myself on sleep.
Or maybe it would be better to adjust your "lets get ready for bed" routine so you start later - make a mental note, reset your personal clock a little, but still do essentially the same things and adjust mornings accordingly.
Don't forget, you're learning about your kid and how to be his partner, while he's learning about sleep and night-time and decisions and routines and you and whatever his interests are... Everything isn't going to go smoothly all the time, and that's okay. The not-so-smooth times are an important part of the process!
On that front, it could help to step back from the idea of a Peaceful transition to sleep - because some kids go through an odd phase of crying to sleep. Althea Solter has some ideas about that in... Tears and Tantrums, I think. I know my daughter went through a stage like that right around your son's age - for something like a year she'd cry herself to sleep. It was... weird. But it seemed like a way to manage that uncomfortable transition between wakefulness and sleep.
Experimenting is a big part of how people learn - adults as much as kids. To an extent, he's Going to be experimenting with the transition between waking and sleeping no matter what you do. So it might help to consider yourself his research assistant! Right now, he might need you to help him settle down. Chances are, that won't always be the case, though ;)
---Meredith
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That is exactly what I was thinking when I read your post. Don't overthink change, it's going to happen. My son went through a quite unsettled night-time phase at around 3-4. He went to bed really late, and was waking up early regardless. It was just a short-lived phase though...
If your son wants to stay up late, offer things for him to do. You could read to him, he could play computer/iPad/iPod games, set up pencils and paper. If he's going to bed later, he'll likely be sleeping in (eventually, anyway), so you can do your jobs then...he'll also be getting older and you'll find you can do things like pay your bills, and send emails, when he's busy doing something else in the daytime.
There surely must be plenty of time to see his Dad in the evenings? My son very rarely see's Dad before work (he leaves at 7.40am, gets home at 6pm) - but they do lots together at night - play chess, wrestle, read, watch their favourite TV shows together.
Try not to envisage the the future, because you can't know it. If a new bedtime routine evolves, let it evolve - it might look totally different to how you are imagining it :)
Jo
To: [email protected]
From: plaidpanties666@...
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 19:11:16 +0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: nighttime questions
regan wrote:
>> What are some other ways I can help my son stay up late and find his way to peaceful sleep, without sacrificing dad time?*************
Sometimes when a bunch of assumptions or goals get rolled together like that, it make it harder to find solutions. Step back from the desire for A solution and instead look for a bunch of tools, options, and ideas which move you (y'all) closer to your goals.
So... is the only time he has with dad in the morning? Change is part of growing up - you're not Going to be able to keep the same routine indefinately. So it will help to look for other ways for your son and husband to get their needs met without holding on to the same schedule. Can they spend more time together in the early evening? Could dad take over some of the "bed time" stuff - pajamas and teeth and tea?
Changing the bedtime routine can work in other ways, too. Depending on why your son wants to stay up, changing the routine could give him what he's looking for - do those things earlier in the evening so he has more time to play afterwards. That could give him the feeling of a longer night, by moving those transitional markers earlier. Like... I don't like a late dinner because it makes the evening seem to short to me, and I'm more likely to stay up later and short myself on sleep.
Or maybe it would be better to adjust your "lets get ready for bed" routine so you start later - make a mental note, reset your personal clock a little, but still do essentially the same things and adjust mornings accordingly.
Don't forget, you're learning about your kid and how to be his partner, while he's learning about sleep and night-time and decisions and routines and you and whatever his interests are... Everything isn't going to go smoothly all the time, and that's okay. The not-so-smooth times are an important part of the process!
On that front, it could help to step back from the idea of a Peaceful transition to sleep - because some kids go through an odd phase of crying to sleep. Althea Solter has some ideas about that in... Tears and Tantrums, I think. I know my daughter went through a stage like that right around your son's age - for something like a year she'd cry herself to sleep. It was... weird. But it seemed like a way to manage that uncomfortable transition between wakefulness and sleep.
>I think it would be great if he could figure out how to sleep, and just crash when he's tired, but I think it may take some experimenting.******************
Experimenting is a big part of how people learn - adults as much as kids. To an extent, he's Going to be experimenting with the transition between waking and sleeping no matter what you do. So it might help to consider yourself his research assistant! Right now, he might need you to help him settle down. Chances are, that won't always be the case, though ;)
---Meredith
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]