Family and Friends who are not unschoolers in mind
Sabine Mellinger
My husband and I are both really enjoying to raise our son in a way that's very much inspired by the unschooling principles. Since he is only 4 years old, for us this means less not going to school than more the way he makes choices about what he is interested in to learn, the believe that learning takes place everywhere and any time, the supportive, interesting environment we try to create and the lack of rigid rules we have around food, bedtime and other parts of our family life. We enjoy our time together as a family and my son is thriving in this environment.
Here comes our problem though: My son who is usually a pleasure to be around will turn into a wild, oppositional and defiant child when around people who treat him in a not so unschooling way. For example my parents are very authoritarian and expect a child to do whatever they ask for. They have rigid rules around meal- and bedtime, a child should be seen but not so much heard. They usually don't take the time to listen to my son, interrupt him when he is talking but get very upset if he will interrupt any of their conversations. They are annoyed by all his questions and have actually criticized me for taking the time to answer all of his "why's". Overall there is just not much kindness in their interaction with my son.
From their point of view I can understand that they think my son is behaving in unacceptable ways but I know that he usually is not this wild and defiant and that his behavior around them is just his response to the way they treat him.
I have tried to gently explain to my parents how we raise our son, unfortunately they disagree with our approach and even feel that my son's behavior around them is prove of our failed parenting.
I also have tried to explain to my son that at grandma's house the rules are different than in ours and that I will help him navigate the unusual terrain. I usually stay close to prevent or help him with any difficult situation. My son is very sensitive to non-verbal, interpersonal reactions and so I can't rule out that he senses my dislike of how my parents are treating him. I have asked my son if he enjoys his time at my parents house and he says "yes" but it doesn't sound as excited as he would be if I asked about other relatives or friends. He has never asked me to stay away from his grandparents.
I have thought of avoiding the situation all together by not visiting but I am wondering if I should keep my son away from his grandparents. They do have good times together as long as their conventional parenting doesn't take over too much.
We live far away from my parents (12 hour flight) so unfortunately short day visits are not really an option.
I suppose as my son gets older this might get easier since he will better understand that different people have different approaches to life but I would appreciate any experience how to make this situation easier for my son and my parents (I can see that they are unhappy about the situation too, but unable to change their approach).
Thank you !
Sabine
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Here comes our problem though: My son who is usually a pleasure to be around will turn into a wild, oppositional and defiant child when around people who treat him in a not so unschooling way. For example my parents are very authoritarian and expect a child to do whatever they ask for. They have rigid rules around meal- and bedtime, a child should be seen but not so much heard. They usually don't take the time to listen to my son, interrupt him when he is talking but get very upset if he will interrupt any of their conversations. They are annoyed by all his questions and have actually criticized me for taking the time to answer all of his "why's". Overall there is just not much kindness in their interaction with my son.
From their point of view I can understand that they think my son is behaving in unacceptable ways but I know that he usually is not this wild and defiant and that his behavior around them is just his response to the way they treat him.
I have tried to gently explain to my parents how we raise our son, unfortunately they disagree with our approach and even feel that my son's behavior around them is prove of our failed parenting.
I also have tried to explain to my son that at grandma's house the rules are different than in ours and that I will help him navigate the unusual terrain. I usually stay close to prevent or help him with any difficult situation. My son is very sensitive to non-verbal, interpersonal reactions and so I can't rule out that he senses my dislike of how my parents are treating him. I have asked my son if he enjoys his time at my parents house and he says "yes" but it doesn't sound as excited as he would be if I asked about other relatives or friends. He has never asked me to stay away from his grandparents.
I have thought of avoiding the situation all together by not visiting but I am wondering if I should keep my son away from his grandparents. They do have good times together as long as their conventional parenting doesn't take over too much.
We live far away from my parents (12 hour flight) so unfortunately short day visits are not really an option.
I suppose as my son gets older this might get easier since he will better understand that different people have different approaches to life but I would appreciate any experience how to make this situation easier for my son and my parents (I can see that they are unhappy about the situation too, but unable to change their approach).
Thank you !
Sabine
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Meredith
Sabine Mellinger wrote:
My stepson was like that. It was really interesting to me, personally, because I could really see what sorts of things made unschooling work and what sorts of things shut down learning.
That may make visiting too expensive for awhile - I don't know - but it would be better to wait and send pictures and stories and let them love each other from a distance than to set them up to hurt each others' feelings -and yours! In a few years, he'll have more skills and be better able to be nice on grandma's terms.
If you do stay with them, plan lots and lots of day trips ahead of time, so there's less stress around grandparents' rules. Get out of the house!
Oh... food - my daughter is very conservative about food, so when I travel to visit relatives I'm very proactive - and pushy! - as to how I deal with that. *I* give her food. Other people can ask me first. I make sure to feed her before meals so I can say "no, she has already had dinner, she'll be watching a movie while we eat" or some such thing, and she can have whatever dessert I decide. That all sounds very controlling - at the same time, I have a stash of the kinds of foods I know she'll eat in our luggage that she can have any time. If there are house rules about "no crumbs on the carpet/couch/bed" I clean up afterwards. I make sure I'm not inconveniencing anyone - and I don't take any guff about it either: I'm the mom! Grrrrrrr!
The last few times I've travelled with Mo I've had the luxury of visiting unschooling families along the way. It's really wonderful to Not have to do any of that extra work. If you get a chance to visit an unschooling family while travelling, go for it!
---Meredith
> Here comes our problem though: My son who is usually a pleasure to be around will turn into a wild, oppositional and defiant child when around people who treat him in a not so unschooling way.***************
My stepson was like that. It was really interesting to me, personally, because I could really see what sorts of things made unschooling work and what sorts of things shut down learning.
>> For example my parents are very authoritarian and expect a child to do whatever they ask for. They have rigid rules around meal- and bedtime, a child should be seen but not so much heard.When you visit, don't stay in their home and for the most part don't visit them there - stay in "neutral territory". That may break up a lot of the trouble right there. Set things up so they're doing fun kid things with your son rather than visiting with adults and the child sits and listens. Otherwise, you're sabotaging the relationship - you're setting your son And your parents up to fail over and over. That will wear down all the relationships. Set them up to succeed.
> We live far away from my parents (12 hour flight)
That may make visiting too expensive for awhile - I don't know - but it would be better to wait and send pictures and stories and let them love each other from a distance than to set them up to hurt each others' feelings -and yours! In a few years, he'll have more skills and be better able to be nice on grandma's terms.
If you do stay with them, plan lots and lots of day trips ahead of time, so there's less stress around grandparents' rules. Get out of the house!
Oh... food - my daughter is very conservative about food, so when I travel to visit relatives I'm very proactive - and pushy! - as to how I deal with that. *I* give her food. Other people can ask me first. I make sure to feed her before meals so I can say "no, she has already had dinner, she'll be watching a movie while we eat" or some such thing, and she can have whatever dessert I decide. That all sounds very controlling - at the same time, I have a stash of the kinds of foods I know she'll eat in our luggage that she can have any time. If there are house rules about "no crumbs on the carpet/couch/bed" I clean up afterwards. I make sure I'm not inconveniencing anyone - and I don't take any guff about it either: I'm the mom! Grrrrrrr!
The last few times I've travelled with Mo I've had the luxury of visiting unschooling families along the way. It's really wonderful to Not have to do any of that extra work. If you get a chance to visit an unschooling family while travelling, go for it!
---Meredith
Sabine Mellinger
Thank you Meredith for your response and your helpful suggestions.
I have tried some of them in the past and yes, it is easier when we visit with my parents not in their house, when we plan for many day trips and when I'm working hard on anticipating and preventing conflicts. I love the suggestion of excusing my son from meals - it's one of the hot spots since we have never forced him to eat anything and my parents believe in the "empty your plate" kind of parenting.
I am just wondering on a more general note if others have the same experience that unschooled children can have a really hard time with adults who treat them in a rather unkind and disrespectful way and how to help unschooled children to master these situations. It breaks my heart to see my son being all puzzled about the interaction with these (what would be the right adjective - traditional parenting ??) adults. He actually starts behaving in ways that I don't think are o.k. but at the same time I know why he is behaving this way. My solution right now is to keep these situations to a minimum and to hope that he will grow to understand that some adults just have a different approach to interacting with children.
Here a conversation between my mom and my 4 year old son that kind of highlights all the different layers of difficulties: "Omama, how did you learn how to read ?" "I learned it in school." No, Omama, HOW did you learn how to read ?" "Don't you ever listen ? I told you, I went to school" "Noooooooooooo Omama, I did NOT ask you where you learned it, I asked you HOW".........unfortunately followed by my son throwing the book they were reading on the floor (it broke) and stomping off........as a result my mother would not read to him for the next few days since he was "obviously too young and too misbehaved to know how to treat books".......arggggg.
Sabine
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I have tried some of them in the past and yes, it is easier when we visit with my parents not in their house, when we plan for many day trips and when I'm working hard on anticipating and preventing conflicts. I love the suggestion of excusing my son from meals - it's one of the hot spots since we have never forced him to eat anything and my parents believe in the "empty your plate" kind of parenting.
I am just wondering on a more general note if others have the same experience that unschooled children can have a really hard time with adults who treat them in a rather unkind and disrespectful way and how to help unschooled children to master these situations. It breaks my heart to see my son being all puzzled about the interaction with these (what would be the right adjective - traditional parenting ??) adults. He actually starts behaving in ways that I don't think are o.k. but at the same time I know why he is behaving this way. My solution right now is to keep these situations to a minimum and to hope that he will grow to understand that some adults just have a different approach to interacting with children.
Here a conversation between my mom and my 4 year old son that kind of highlights all the different layers of difficulties: "Omama, how did you learn how to read ?" "I learned it in school." No, Omama, HOW did you learn how to read ?" "Don't you ever listen ? I told you, I went to school" "Noooooooooooo Omama, I did NOT ask you where you learned it, I asked you HOW".........unfortunately followed by my son throwing the book they were reading on the floor (it broke) and stomping off........as a result my mother would not read to him for the next few days since he was "obviously too young and too misbehaved to know how to treat books".......arggggg.
Sabine
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Meredith
Sabine Mellinger wrote:
Ray's my stepson, and left school at 13 to live with us full time and unschool (and there's more to the story, but that's enough to discuss this particular topic). In the short term, it help to be sure he was never left alone with adults who would treat him this way (in the case of his bio mom, he actually refused to see her for months, to the point of jumping out of a moving car when she sought to exercise her rights- yikes!).
It also helped to have me and his dad leap to his defense in situations where he was being treated badly. I'm not exactly adept in those kinds of on-the-spot social situations, so a lot of that involved me putting my foot in my mouth and looking like a fool - but at least Ray knew I was on his side and would stand up for him, even at the expense of my own dignity.
Over time, as he deschooled, he became more thoughtful and understanding and better able to act in his Own defense (and he does it much better than I do!). With Ray, it was a deschooling issue because he was a young teen - with your guy it's probably more of a developmental thing. As he gets older and better able to understand other people's perspectives, he'll have an easier time making real decisions about how he wants to respond when people are rude to him.
One of the things you can do to help, over time, is to be thoughtful when you run across other situations where there are rules. Like "no shirt, no shoes, no service" sorts of rules - they can seem silly, and it can be tempting to say "oh, it's just a dumb rule". But it's more helpful to talk about why that rule might exist, what are the ideas behind it.
>> I am just wondering on a more general note if others have the same experience that unschooled children can have a really hard time with adults who treat them in a rather unkind and disrespectful way and how to help unschooled children to master these situations.****************
Ray's my stepson, and left school at 13 to live with us full time and unschool (and there's more to the story, but that's enough to discuss this particular topic). In the short term, it help to be sure he was never left alone with adults who would treat him this way (in the case of his bio mom, he actually refused to see her for months, to the point of jumping out of a moving car when she sought to exercise her rights- yikes!).
It also helped to have me and his dad leap to his defense in situations where he was being treated badly. I'm not exactly adept in those kinds of on-the-spot social situations, so a lot of that involved me putting my foot in my mouth and looking like a fool - but at least Ray knew I was on his side and would stand up for him, even at the expense of my own dignity.
Over time, as he deschooled, he became more thoughtful and understanding and better able to act in his Own defense (and he does it much better than I do!). With Ray, it was a deschooling issue because he was a young teen - with your guy it's probably more of a developmental thing. As he gets older and better able to understand other people's perspectives, he'll have an easier time making real decisions about how he wants to respond when people are rude to him.
One of the things you can do to help, over time, is to be thoughtful when you run across other situations where there are rules. Like "no shirt, no shoes, no service" sorts of rules - they can seem silly, and it can be tempting to say "oh, it's just a dumb rule". But it's more helpful to talk about why that rule might exist, what are the ideas behind it.
> Thank you Meredith for your response and your helpful suggestions.
> I have tried some of them in the past and yes, it is easier when we visit with my parents not in their house, when we plan for many day trips and when I'm working hard on anticipating and preventing conflicts. I love the suggestion of excusing my son from meals - it's one of the hot spots since we have never forced him to eat anything and my parents believe in the "empty your plate" kind of parenting.
>
> I am just wondering on a more general note if others have the same experience that unschooled children can have a really hard time with adults who treat them in a rather unkind and disrespectful way and how to help unschooled children to master these situations. It breaks my heart to see my son being all puzzled about the interaction with these (what would be the right adjective - traditional parenting ??) adults. He actually starts behaving in ways that I don't think are o.k. but at the same time I know why he is behaving this way. My solution right now is to keep these situations to a minimum and to hope that he will grow to understand that some adults just have a different approach to interacting with children.
>
> Here a conversation between my mom and my 4 year old son that kind of highlights all the different layers of difficulties: "Omama, how did you learn how to read ?" "I learned it in school." No, Omama, HOW did you learn how to read ?" "Don't you ever listen ? I told you, I went to school" "Noooooooooooo Omama, I did NOT ask you where you learned it, I asked you HOW".........unfortunately followed by my son throwing the book they were reading on the floor (it broke) and stomping off........as a result my mother would not read to him for the next few days since he was "obviously too young and too misbehaved to know how to treat books".......arggggg.
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 30, 2013, at 2:51 PM, Sabine Mellinger wrote:
I think you probably don't, but you're equating his reaction to you being kind to him. He is a sum of the nature he was born with and the environment he's growing up in. In other words, he is who he is. See him rather than an unschooled child. Help him with the problems he struggles with rather than seeing him as an example of a subset of kids that need treated differently than schooled kids.
It might help to see how you're treating him as not the one right way kids need treated but how you've chosen to treat him. As he sees more and more people, he will see other choices. He will weigh the pros and cons of what he experiences to make decisions about how he wants to be.
Be the buffer between him and the world and between the world and him. Not the protective wall! Let him be in the world until he's reached his limit. If he's bothering people or the world is bothering him, get him out of there.
At some point, if he asks, you can mention that sudden big angers are often more about something going on inside of someone rather than about the person they're angry at.
Though it's good to be conscious of what you say to him about other people! Imagine him repeating what you say which should be a good test of whether or how to say it ;-)
If you know such interactions are likely to happen, be with him so you can divert the situations before they go too far. You probably can't stop all of them but the more you can sidetrack, the easier it will be on him and the other person. And you'll get better at picking up the clues the more you do it.
Joyce
> if others have the same experience that unschooled children can have a reallyDo you think kids who are treated disrespectfully have a head start on mastering these situations?
> hard time with adults who treat them in a rather unkind and disrespectful way
> and how to help unschooled children to master these situations.
I think you probably don't, but you're equating his reaction to you being kind to him. He is a sum of the nature he was born with and the environment he's growing up in. In other words, he is who he is. See him rather than an unschooled child. Help him with the problems he struggles with rather than seeing him as an example of a subset of kids that need treated differently than schooled kids.
> It breaks my heart to see my son being all puzzledHe's figuring out how humans work. Let him figure it out -- but in the doses he can handle!
It might help to see how you're treating him as not the one right way kids need treated but how you've chosen to treat him. As he sees more and more people, he will see other choices. He will weigh the pros and cons of what he experiences to make decisions about how he wants to be.
> He actually starts behaving in ways that I don't think are o.k. but at the same time I know why he is behaving this way.Having a reason for unacceptable behavior doesn't make the behavior okay.
Be the buffer between him and the world and between the world and him. Not the protective wall! Let him be in the world until he's reached his limit. If he's bothering people or the world is bothering him, get him out of there.
> My solution right now is to keep these situations to a minimumThat's really all you can do. You can't control other people, including him. But you can control what environment he is in.
At some point, if he asks, you can mention that sudden big angers are often more about something going on inside of someone rather than about the person they're angry at.
Though it's good to be conscious of what you say to him about other people! Imagine him repeating what you say which should be a good test of whether or how to say it ;-)
> and to hope that he will grow to understand that some adultsWhy do you think he wouldn't? Why do you think that would be so difficult for him to figure out?
> just have a different approach to interacting with children.
> Here a conversation between my mom and my 4 year old son that kind ofBe more present.
> highlights all the different layers of difficulties:
If you know such interactions are likely to happen, be with him so you can divert the situations before they go too far. You probably can't stop all of them but the more you can sidetrack, the easier it will be on him and the other person. And you'll get better at picking up the clues the more you do it.
Joyce
[email protected]
So your 4-year-old and you have discussed how people learn to read. Gramma is giving a traditional answer.
How about intervening in the conversation next time and explaining to both of them that you are doing things differently from the way things were done when Gramma was a little girl.
Generally avoiding these situations can be helpful. But when they can't be avoided, a child who knows about the differences between schooled life and unschooled life might have a better response to a Gramma who is not getting it, might not need to bring it up at all, might learn some stock answers when subjects get touchy, might learn how to smile and walk away. The idea is not to explain anything to Gramma but to help the child handle an awkward social situation with grace.
Nance
How about intervening in the conversation next time and explaining to both of them that you are doing things differently from the way things were done when Gramma was a little girl.
Generally avoiding these situations can be helpful. But when they can't be avoided, a child who knows about the differences between schooled life and unschooled life might have a better response to a Gramma who is not getting it, might not need to bring it up at all, might learn some stock answers when subjects get touchy, might learn how to smile and walk away. The idea is not to explain anything to Gramma but to help the child handle an awkward social situation with grace.
Nance
--- In [email protected], Sabine Mellinger wrote:
>
> Thank you Meredith for your response and your helpful suggestions.
> I have tried some of them in the past and yes, it is easier when we visit with my parents not in their house, when we plan for many day trips and when I'm working hard on anticipating and preventing conflicts. I love the suggestion of excusing my son from meals - it's one of the hot spots since we have never forced him to eat anything and my parents believe in the "empty your plate" kind of parenting.
>
> I am just wondering on a more general note if others have the same experience that unschooled children can have a really hard time with adults who treat them in a rather unkind and disrespectful way and how to help unschooled children to master these situations. It breaks my heart to see my son being all puzzled about the interaction with these (what would be the right adjective - traditional parenting ??) adults. He actually starts behaving in ways that I don't think are o.k. but at the same time I know why he is behaving this way. My solution right now is to keep these situations to a minimum and to hope that he will grow to understand that some adults just have a different approach to interacting with children.
>
> Here a conversation between my mom and my 4 year old son that kind of highlights all the different layers of difficulties: "Omama, how did you learn how to read ?" "I learned it in school." No, Omama, HOW did you learn how to read ?" "Don't you ever listen ? I told you, I went to school" "Noooooooooooo Omama, I did NOT ask you where you learned it, I asked you HOW".........unfortunately followed by my son throwing the book they were reading on the floor (it broke) and stomping off........as a result my mother would not read to him for the next few days since he was "obviously too young and too misbehaved to know how to treat books".......arggggg.
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> Sabine
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Sabine Mellinger
Meredith wrote:
Looking at it critically, subconsciously I might have a been a little more reluctant to make a complete fool out of myself in front of my parents, while I don't really mind it as much in front of friends, neighbors or strangers. This probably escalated the confusion for my son even more.
Thanks for pointing it out - I will work on it......making a fool out of me ;)
Sabine
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>It also helped to have me and his dad leap to his defense in situations where he was being treated badly. I'm not exactly adept in those kinds of on-the-spot social situations, so a lot of that involved me putting my foot in my mouth and looking like a fool - but at least Ray knew I was on his side and would stand up for him, even at the expense of my own dignity.<
Looking at it critically, subconsciously I might have a been a little more reluctant to make a complete fool out of myself in front of my parents, while I don't really mind it as much in front of friends, neighbors or strangers. This probably escalated the confusion for my son even more.
Thanks for pointing it out - I will work on it......making a fool out of me ;)
Sabine
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