Helping Post-Institutionalized Child with Sleep
hibethany
My daughters are 2 and 4 and were adopted more than one year ago. DD1
spent her first 37 months and DD2 spent her first 20 months in an
Eastern European orphanage. Sleep schedules were strictly regimented in
the orphanage. I guess you could say this is their 'deschooling' period
from 24/7 institutional life. It took many months for our oldest to
regulate food independently and that was a hard process to watch as a
parent, but she's great with food now. We have tried so many ways to get
there with sleep, but without as much success, so I am writing for
advice please.
We believe that our 4 year old DD unfortunately suffered some trauma
from the night-watch nanny at the orphanage (probably physical abuse)
and is now very fearful of sleep in general and resists sleeping day or
night. Whether she makes her own sleep decisions or we as parents help
her, she has an extremely difficult time. She is a person who needs A
LOT of sleep and if she doesn't get it, her mood/behavior is profoundly
affected and she feels totally miserable. She is a very kind and loving
person when she is well rested, although she feels awful when she is
over-tired (hitting, spitting, kicking, whining, demanding, crying
continuously) yet she resists falling asleep. The mere mention of the
word sends her sobbing. Unfortunately, this is starting to affect DD2
and she is starting to have the same reactions.
The longest we have tried having DD1 make her own sleep choices was one
month and we just couldn't get past that point because she was not
getting nearly enough rest; every single day she was tired and cranky
and my husband and I were beside ourselves with frustration at the ill
effects (of her not getting enough rest) on the entire family. When she
was making her own sleep decisions, she was falling asleep about
midnight and waking about 8 (about 3-4 hours shy of the amount of sleep
she needs to feel like herself) and she went without a nap 100% of the
time. Although many children don't need a nap at age 4, my DD has a
difficult time getting through the day without one most days. (A couple
of days a week she seems to feel fine without it).
I love all the pictures here http://sandradodd.com/sleeping
<http://sandradodd.com/sleeping> of adorable toddlers falling asleep
just about anywhere. In my ideal world, that's what I imagine, but I
obviously want to do what's best for my DD and her specific needs. Right
now she is functioning so well and feeling the best that I have ever
seen her (because she is getting enough sleep), but I'm telling her when
"it's time". She gets hyperactive when she crosses the line to
over-tired. so I have been trying to catch her just before that point
and lay down with her for 30-60 minutes until she falls asleep. But she
resists everything about 'bedtime' and the worst part about the way we
are doing it now is all the struggles when I mention that "it's time"
which often results in me yelling (ugh, I hate that part). The best
thing about the way we are doing it now is that she is finally getting
enough sleep and therefore feeling great.
I know about gradual change: http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
<http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange> and I'd like some practical
advice on how to make this transition please. I think sleep is
something she really needs to learn how to control and maybe that will
help her to heal from the past. I want her to feel empowered so that her
thoughts about sleep will change. I talk to her about how our bodies
feel when they are tired and need rest. Your suggestions are highly
appreciated!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
spent her first 37 months and DD2 spent her first 20 months in an
Eastern European orphanage. Sleep schedules were strictly regimented in
the orphanage. I guess you could say this is their 'deschooling' period
from 24/7 institutional life. It took many months for our oldest to
regulate food independently and that was a hard process to watch as a
parent, but she's great with food now. We have tried so many ways to get
there with sleep, but without as much success, so I am writing for
advice please.
We believe that our 4 year old DD unfortunately suffered some trauma
from the night-watch nanny at the orphanage (probably physical abuse)
and is now very fearful of sleep in general and resists sleeping day or
night. Whether she makes her own sleep decisions or we as parents help
her, she has an extremely difficult time. She is a person who needs A
LOT of sleep and if she doesn't get it, her mood/behavior is profoundly
affected and she feels totally miserable. She is a very kind and loving
person when she is well rested, although she feels awful when she is
over-tired (hitting, spitting, kicking, whining, demanding, crying
continuously) yet she resists falling asleep. The mere mention of the
word sends her sobbing. Unfortunately, this is starting to affect DD2
and she is starting to have the same reactions.
The longest we have tried having DD1 make her own sleep choices was one
month and we just couldn't get past that point because she was not
getting nearly enough rest; every single day she was tired and cranky
and my husband and I were beside ourselves with frustration at the ill
effects (of her not getting enough rest) on the entire family. When she
was making her own sleep decisions, she was falling asleep about
midnight and waking about 8 (about 3-4 hours shy of the amount of sleep
she needs to feel like herself) and she went without a nap 100% of the
time. Although many children don't need a nap at age 4, my DD has a
difficult time getting through the day without one most days. (A couple
of days a week she seems to feel fine without it).
I love all the pictures here http://sandradodd.com/sleeping
<http://sandradodd.com/sleeping> of adorable toddlers falling asleep
just about anywhere. In my ideal world, that's what I imagine, but I
obviously want to do what's best for my DD and her specific needs. Right
now she is functioning so well and feeling the best that I have ever
seen her (because she is getting enough sleep), but I'm telling her when
"it's time". She gets hyperactive when she crosses the line to
over-tired. so I have been trying to catch her just before that point
and lay down with her for 30-60 minutes until she falls asleep. But she
resists everything about 'bedtime' and the worst part about the way we
are doing it now is all the struggles when I mention that "it's time"
which often results in me yelling (ugh, I hate that part). The best
thing about the way we are doing it now is that she is finally getting
enough sleep and therefore feeling great.
I know about gradual change: http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
<http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange> and I'd like some practical
advice on how to make this transition please. I think sleep is
something she really needs to learn how to control and maybe that will
help her to heal from the past. I want her to feel empowered so that her
thoughts about sleep will change. I talk to her about how our bodies
feel when they are tired and need rest. Your suggestions are highly
appreciated!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Well because I could not sleep, and man am I tired, I can answer this right now :)
Two things that jump at me is:
Why can't she sleep past 8 AM? Do you have a dark enough room for her to sleep in in the AM?
Why are you announcing "it is time"?
All those pictures Sandra posted were kids that fell asleep when they were tired and not necessarily in bed because it was time.
I have sat with my kids in front of TV and let them fall asleep and then transfer to bed or left them in the chair or couch for naps.
I have taken TV, Games, books, Computer and coloring pages to bed and played until they fell asleep. I Do say I am going to sleep when I am tired. I do ask my daughter to go with me. She sometimes wants to do other things for a little while, like watch something with her brother, but she will come over to bed , usually, within 30 minutes to join me because she likes to sleep with me. She is 6. With my 10 year old son I do not say any of those things. He even has a different schedule most of the time.
Sometimes my daughter falls asleep watching a show with dad and we bring her to bed.
When she was a toddle I used to take her to a room with the lights out and the TV and I would watch my show while she nursed to sleep,then put her in bed in our room. It was great. I was even able to catch up on my shows !
If your child already gets in panic about going to bed I would not announce it. I would do something calm and with lights down low. Watch a movie she likes to with her , let her fall asleep on your lap , which will also help immensely with attachment issues.
Create a relaxing environment when you know she is tired, snuggle up. Do not announce it is time to sleep. Do not even go to bed! Maybe later it will be OK in 6 months of a year. But for now just make sure she can sleep peacefully and get enough.
Also many kids do not want to go to sleep while parents stay awake. Maybe she does not want to be alone at night. Maybe have her sleep in your room, even if in her own bed or a mattress on the floor. My kids slept with me at 4.
Maybe read books about sleeping that are sweet to her. Some kids gets lulled by their parents reading to them or a book on tape.
Find ways to relax together.
Some kids will be rested if they have some very relaxing and easy going time during the day instead of a nap. Some snuggling to watch a movie or favorite show. Some books maybe. Not a nap but a relaxing time to charge up.
Find ways that are sweet for her to rest, sleep in in a dark room in the morning,fall asleep at night without you turning into a battle because " it it time"!
Also as someone who takes a long time to sleep I just want to say that some people are like that. They just do not go to bed and fall asleep, even when tired. Some of us need to relax into it. I usually take from 30 minutes, on a very good day, to 2 hours for me to fall asleep when I go to bed. My parents never really made us go to bed and we had no bedtimes growing up. I am the only sibling like that out of 4. All the rest of my family sleep fast. I need a lot more time!
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Two things that jump at me is:
Why can't she sleep past 8 AM? Do you have a dark enough room for her to sleep in in the AM?
Why are you announcing "it is time"?
All those pictures Sandra posted were kids that fell asleep when they were tired and not necessarily in bed because it was time.
I have sat with my kids in front of TV and let them fall asleep and then transfer to bed or left them in the chair or couch for naps.
I have taken TV, Games, books, Computer and coloring pages to bed and played until they fell asleep. I Do say I am going to sleep when I am tired. I do ask my daughter to go with me. She sometimes wants to do other things for a little while, like watch something with her brother, but she will come over to bed , usually, within 30 minutes to join me because she likes to sleep with me. She is 6. With my 10 year old son I do not say any of those things. He even has a different schedule most of the time.
Sometimes my daughter falls asleep watching a show with dad and we bring her to bed.
When she was a toddle I used to take her to a room with the lights out and the TV and I would watch my show while she nursed to sleep,then put her in bed in our room. It was great. I was even able to catch up on my shows !
If your child already gets in panic about going to bed I would not announce it. I would do something calm and with lights down low. Watch a movie she likes to with her , let her fall asleep on your lap , which will also help immensely with attachment issues.
Create a relaxing environment when you know she is tired, snuggle up. Do not announce it is time to sleep. Do not even go to bed! Maybe later it will be OK in 6 months of a year. But for now just make sure she can sleep peacefully and get enough.
Also many kids do not want to go to sleep while parents stay awake. Maybe she does not want to be alone at night. Maybe have her sleep in your room, even if in her own bed or a mattress on the floor. My kids slept with me at 4.
Maybe read books about sleeping that are sweet to her. Some kids gets lulled by their parents reading to them or a book on tape.
Find ways to relax together.
Some kids will be rested if they have some very relaxing and easy going time during the day instead of a nap. Some snuggling to watch a movie or favorite show. Some books maybe. Not a nap but a relaxing time to charge up.
Find ways that are sweet for her to rest, sleep in in a dark room in the morning,fall asleep at night without you turning into a battle because " it it time"!
Also as someone who takes a long time to sleep I just want to say that some people are like that. They just do not go to bed and fall asleep, even when tired. Some of us need to relax into it. I usually take from 30 minutes, on a very good day, to 2 hours for me to fall asleep when I go to bed. My parents never really made us go to bed and we had no bedtimes growing up. I am the only sibling like that out of 4. All the rest of my family sleep fast. I need a lot more time!
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"hibethany" <hibethany@...> wrote:
Some kids, just like some adults, fall asleep better with an evening routine. It's not somehow bad or controlling to help someone you love settle down for the night, it's sweet and kind and thoughtful. The hard part, for you, is going to be finding ways to do that which don't push your kid's buttons - which may take some time to work out. It may also take some time, period. My daughter went through a stage where she cried herself to sleep every night - it was baffling to me, but I learned it wasn't an uncommon stage. Sometimes kids find tears a useful strategy to relax into sleep. Did you ever have the feeling that you "need a good cry"? Like that in a way.
And eventually, each of my kids outgrew that stage.
---Meredith
>She gets hyperactive when she crosses the line toAre you Just laying down with her, or is there some kind of routine? It may be that you can make things easier on her by having a routine, but one which doesn't push her buttons. So if she's used to bath-story-bed (I have no idea, I'm just making up an example) then you could try watching a movie instead - something that maybe was a treat before.
> over-tired. so I have been trying to catch her just before that point
> and lay down with her for 30-60 minutes until she falls asleep. But she
> resists everything about 'bedtime'
Some kids, just like some adults, fall asleep better with an evening routine. It's not somehow bad or controlling to help someone you love settle down for the night, it's sweet and kind and thoughtful. The hard part, for you, is going to be finding ways to do that which don't push your kid's buttons - which may take some time to work out. It may also take some time, period. My daughter went through a stage where she cried herself to sleep every night - it was baffling to me, but I learned it wasn't an uncommon stage. Sometimes kids find tears a useful strategy to relax into sleep. Did you ever have the feeling that you "need a good cry"? Like that in a way.
> which often results in me yellingWhat if you were to step back from the expectation that settling down to sleep is going to be smooth and peaceful for now? It's not uncommon for young children to have trouble with transitions - and sleep is a kind of transition, one which can be pretty scary. So you do what you can to ease the transition, but at the same time realize that transitions are hard. Both my kids went through stages where transitions were big, dramatic events. It helped me to relax into the drama, to accept that even if I did everything "right" there would likely still be a screaming, flailing young child. Accepting that, I could be the calm one - and that was Enormously helpful. I wasn't adding to the drama and stress, so things didn't spiral up quite so far. Transitions were more peaceful, even the ones involving meltdowns.
And eventually, each of my kids outgrew that stage.
---Meredith
cyberbreadbowl
This is a quick reply to your message. I am not really an expert at the whole self-regulation thing, but my dd, who was never in an orphanage or abused (I birthed her at home), also fears sleep. I have found that the only way to help her to fall asleep when she is overtired is to give her a small dose of melatonin. She currently nurses to sleep, though, so that makes a big difference (still, without the melatonin, she just nurses off and on, slightly drowsy, literally for hours). She has some sensory issues, though, so that may have something to do with it.
Bun
--- In [email protected], "hibethany" <hibethany@...> wrote:
We don't have any particular bedtime routine, but my almost four year old son does enjoy a bubble bath (though we don't do this every night..but sometimes) and picking out books to read by flashlight in preparation for bed.
Other times we change locations from playing downstairs to upstairs where we might play legos or puzzles or throw balls to knock down the robots (a game he made up and likes) or do some pretend play with stuffed animals. Sometimes he wants the stuffed animals to come with us to brush teeth and listen to stories (he likes it when I talk for the animal and he asks it questions or tells it what to do).
He also prefers it when all of us (Mom, Dad, siblings) go to bed together - then he comes up and gets ready with everyone else (this is how it is most nights, though my husband sometimes goes to bed earlier than the rest of us as he has to get up earlier for work.). If we read, I read his stories first, then something one of his siblings would like to hear. To encourage sleep, I read by flashlight. We go to bed quite late usually, and if so, we usually sleep in late. I plan outings and appointments for later in the day if possible to be sure we get enough sleep.
If you children had any trauma, they might feel safer having you with them all night. It might be such a comforting feeling to snuggle up with you as they fall asleep and know you'll be by their side if they awake during the night. One of my kids especially wanted me to be by her side when she woke up. We have two beds pushed together to make one giant bed. I Love our family bedroom (everyone except our oldest sleeps in it).
Laurie
Meredith
>> a small dose of melatonin.Melatonin is a great boon for some people. Know before you try it, though, that for others it is the worst thing ever and can result in interrupted sleep and horrible nightmares! Try a small amount on a night when you have the whole next day to (possibly) recover. Different members of the same family can have different reactions, too.
---Meredith
kristi_beguin
>>>the worst part about the way we are doing it now is all the struggles when I mention that "it's time" which often results in me yelling (ugh, I hate that part). <<<Why does there have to be an "it's time"?
Can you just go about your evening until she falls asleep? We've never had bed times, and we've never had struggles. Things have evolved as my children get older, but generally we've all settled down in front of the TV to watch a movie or a show, and the girls fall asleep. I carry my youngest to bed, and I have for years now. My oldest, also, has usually fallen asleep in the living room at night, and now that she's too big to carry, I gently wake her and she walks to bed, and usually is asleep within minutes.
When my oldest was little we tried the whole bedtime bath, story, massage routine, and it didn't work. But the falling asleep in the living room, with some foot rubs, has worked for years, and without tears and yelling.
JenniferW
--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>I want to second this. Melatonin worked great for me the first few times, but now even small amounts can give me headaches in the morning and very vivid dreams. Usually BAD dreams. I even tried to buy "good" stuff online thinking I got an inferior brand, but had the same results. I'd hate to think it could inadvertently give a child vivid or bad dreams and make sleep that much more worrisome for them.
> Melatonin is a great boon for some people. Know before you try it, though, that for others it is the worst thing ever and can result in interrupted sleep and horrible nightmares!
Sandie D-S
I just learned some interesting things about Melatonin a few weeks ago. I don't normally have a chance to watch daytime t.v, but I was home and saw Dr. Oz talking about Melatonin. Melatonin is a hormone, not a herb, mineral or vitamin. The amount one should take is grossly overstated on most of the Melatonin products. The first few times I used it, I slept so well! Then I had horrible headaches the next 2 times, so I quit using it. It is really only applicable if you need to change your sleep cycle, like for jet lag, or new sleep schedule. It is not to be used as a regular sleep aid.
[link removed - do your own research, folks, I'm not interested in this turning into a discussion of one pet theory or another about Anything other than radical unschooling! ---Meredith]
Sandie
[link removed - do your own research, folks, I'm not interested in this turning into a discussion of one pet theory or another about Anything other than radical unschooling! ---Meredith]
Sandie
Jill Finkenbine
Oh Bethany, I was in your shoes for 10 years! I could only imagine how easy
life would be with children who fell asleep when they were tired! I too
have two daughters close in age, with trauma history, who cannot fall
asleep. A few months ago, one of them revealed that she has always been
afraid she would die while asleep. However, understanding that there is no
danger of death hasn't helped her fall asleep any more easily.
We finally found Source Naturals melatonin spray (Amazon ships it to us
regularly.) It's been like magic for both of our girls. There is also a
melatonin lotion available from Naturally Better, but my children used it
only one time and said it doesn't work as well. (Maybe they needed a larger
amount.) If there is a problem using the spray, it would be worth trying.
Oh how good it is when they fall asleep every night!
Jill
life would be with children who fell asleep when they were tired! I too
have two daughters close in age, with trauma history, who cannot fall
asleep. A few months ago, one of them revealed that she has always been
afraid she would die while asleep. However, understanding that there is no
danger of death hasn't helped her fall asleep any more easily.
We finally found Source Naturals melatonin spray (Amazon ships it to us
regularly.) It's been like magic for both of our girls. There is also a
melatonin lotion available from Naturally Better, but my children used it
only one time and said it doesn't work as well. (Maybe they needed a larger
amount.) If there is a problem using the spray, it would be worth trying.
Oh how good it is when they fall asleep every night!
Jill
On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 12:33 AM, hibethany <hibethany@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> My daughters are 2 and 4 and were adopted more than one year ago. DD1
> spent her first 37 months and DD2 spent her first 20 months in an
> Eastern European orphanage. Sleep schedules were strictly regimented in
> the orphanage. I guess you could say this is their 'deschooling' period
> from 24/7 institutional life. It took many months for our oldest to
> regulate food independently and that was a hard process to watch as a
> parent, but she's great with food now. We have tried so many ways to get
> there with sleep, but without as much success, so I am writing for
> advice please.
> We believe that our 4 year old DD unfortunately suffered some trauma
> from the night-watch nanny at the orphanage (probably physical abuse)
> and is now very fearful of sleep in general and resists sleeping day or
> night. Whether she makes her own sleep decisions or we as parents help
> her, she has an extremely difficult time. She is a person who needs A
> LOT of sleep and if she doesn't get it, her mood/behavior is profoundly
> affected and she feels totally miserable. She is a very kind and loving
> person when she is well rested, although she feels awful when she is
> over-tired (hitting, spitting, kicking, whining, demanding, crying
> continuously) yet she resists falling asleep. The mere mention of the
> word sends her sobbing. Unfortunately, this is starting to affect DD2
> and she is starting to have the same reactions.
> The longest we have tried having DD1 make her own sleep choices was one
> month and we just couldn't get past that point because she was not
> getting nearly enough rest; every single day she was tired and cranky
> and my husband and I were beside ourselves with frustration at the ill
> effects (of her not getting enough rest) on the entire family. When she
> was making her own sleep decisions, she was falling asleep about
> midnight and waking about 8 (about 3-4 hours shy of the amount of sleep
> she needs to feel like herself) and she went without a nap 100% of the
> time. Although many children don't need a nap at age 4, my DD has a
> difficult time getting through the day without one most days. (A couple
> of days a week she seems to feel fine without it).
> I love all the pictures here http://sandradodd.com/sleeping
> <http://sandradodd.com/sleeping> of adorable toddlers falling asleep
> just about anywhere. In my ideal world, that's what I imagine, but I
> obviously want to do what's best for my DD and her specific needs. Right
> now she is functioning so well and feeling the best that I have ever
> seen her (because she is getting enough sleep), but I'm telling her when
> "it's time". She gets hyperactive when she crosses the line to
> over-tired. so I have been trying to catch her just before that point
> and lay down with her for 30-60 minutes until she falls asleep. But she
> resists everything about 'bedtime' and the worst part about the way we
> are doing it now is all the struggles when I mention that "it's time"
> which often results in me yelling (ugh, I hate that part). The best
> thing about the way we are doing it now is that she is finally getting
> enough sleep and therefore feeling great.
> I know about gradual change: http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
> <http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange> and I'd like some practical
> advice on how to make this transition please. I think sleep is
> something she really needs to learn how to control and maybe that will
> help her to heal from the past. I want her to feel empowered so that her
> thoughts about sleep will change. I talk to her about how our bodies
> feel when they are tired and need rest. Your suggestions are highly
> appreciated!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Jill Finkenbine <peace.goodwill@...> wrote:
Fear of dying while asleep is only one of the reasons people don't fall asleep. Some find it an uncomfortable transition. Some don't want to stop and rest - life is just too darned interesting! Some have a hard time settling the mind and body to invite sleep. While drugs are sometimes helpful, they're rarely the perfect solution. It's important to help kids find ways to rest and relax without the pressure of "go to sleep" - which can be very challenging for parents who, naturally, would like a good night's sleep themselves ;)
---Meredith
>I tooIt's not uncommon for young children to go through a stage of being heavily concerned about death and dying - it's not always a response to trauma, although it can be. It's well worth questioning the idea of "understanding there is no danger of death" - does Anyone understand that, much less a young child with a limited ability to comprehend probability? Isn't that what a "mid life crisis" is in a way - an adult going through a similar stage, worried about untimely death?
> have two daughters close in age, with trauma history, who cannot fall
> asleep. A few months ago, one of them revealed that she has always been
> afraid she would die while asleep. However, understanding that there is no
> danger of death hasn't helped her fall asleep any more easily.
Fear of dying while asleep is only one of the reasons people don't fall asleep. Some find it an uncomfortable transition. Some don't want to stop and rest - life is just too darned interesting! Some have a hard time settling the mind and body to invite sleep. While drugs are sometimes helpful, they're rarely the perfect solution. It's important to help kids find ways to rest and relax without the pressure of "go to sleep" - which can be very challenging for parents who, naturally, would like a good night's sleep themselves ;)
---Meredith
cyberbreadbowl
--- In [email protected], "kristi_beguin" <foehn_jye@...> wrote:
>I wish this worked for us, but at least with mine, the three year old often could stay up until midnight or later if we stayed in front of the TV, and the nine year old usually stays up until 3 or later. Not all kids just fall asleep.
> >>>the worst part about the way we are doing it now is all the struggles when I mention that "it's time" which often results in me yelling (ugh, I hate that part). <<<
>
> Why does there have to be an "it's time"?
>
> Can you just go about your evening until she falls asleep? We've never had bed times, and we've never had struggles. Things have evolved as my children get older, but generally we've all settled down in front of the TV to watch a movie or a show, and the girls fall asleep. I carry my youngest to bed, and I have for years now. My oldest, also, has usually fallen asleep in the living room at night, and now that she's too big to carry, I gently wake her and she walks to bed, and usually is asleep within minutes.
>
Schuyler
>>I wish this worked for us, but at least with mine, the three year old often could stay up until midnight or later if we stayed in front of the TV, and the nine year old usually stays up until 3 or later. Not all kids just fall asleep.<<Can you up their activity level during the day and see if that helps them to fall asleep? Be more active, go swimming, go roller skating or bowling or more active day things and see if they fall asleep more easily in the evening?
I struggle to go to sleep when I'm really tired. I struggle with the transition from where I am to bed. Brushing my teeth, getting into pyjamas, all of that is such a hurdle that moving from where I am relaxed and comfortable is a big effort. And I don't fall asleep where I am very easily. If I were wise I might take care of all of those things while I had a bit more energy so that the steps to bed were fewer.
Actually, I struggle to fall asleep at any point in time. I have to wind down the narrative in my head. I have to read or play a game or do something until I am literally dropping with tiredness. When I was little, from toddling age, I would wander the house rather than sleep. I was caught once, at 2 years old, when we were camping crawling out of the window of the van where I was supposed to be sleeping. Fortunately my grandfather had to take a leak in the middle of the night and caught me before I made it out of the van. My parents never really figured out a way of dealing with it. Once I fell asleep I slept through the night. Same now. It's the transition from wake to sleep that I struggle to make. The worst possible response is for me to simply lie in bed and wait for sleep to come. I don't have the requisite ability to clear my mind and fall asleep. The tools I use now are books and a ds. It is wonderful to not lie in bed for hours with nothing to
do. I used to watch the clock turn over minute after minute because I wasn't supposed to have my light on after a certain time and I would go to school having not slept for more than a couple of hours.
For some people sleep doesn't come easily. Help your children to be comfortable and find them things that they can do into the wee hours. It is awful to be sleepless. It isn't nearly so bad to be tired but engaged.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Andrea Catalano
I wonder if you can get through the getting-ready-for-bed stuff (change clothes, brush teeth, etc.) earlier in your evening in a casual way (unrelated to sleep and bed time) so that she's "ready for bed" by the time she's tired, and all of that is NOT a prelude to sleep. Change into soft clothes when you come in from play, wash hands before dinner, brush teeth after dinner... Slot in whatever you would like to get done long before "it's time." When you know she's sleepy, maybe you can turn down the lights, put on a familiar video and cuddle on the couch or offer to read a comforting story and let the sleep come naturally and peacefully. I think if you can avoid saying "it's time" it would be better. For someone who fears sleep, it could sound ominous.
Best, andrea
Sent from my iPhone
Best, andrea
Sent from my iPhone
Andrea Catalano
I'd like to add --
I'd also try to keep any getting-ready-for-bed activity (even if you are able to do it long before she's sleepy) to the absolute minimum as she may have negative associations. I would also skip anything that she finds troubling.
With regard to the conversation on melatonin, another option to consider is Rescue Sleep (there is also an alcohol-free tincture called Rescue Night, I believe) made by Bach. It is a gentle "flower remedy" that I have found helpful on occasion. It's the same formula as Rescue Remedy, used to quell anxiety and stress, with the addition of another flower or two specifically for sleep. Rescue Remedy may also be helpful and it is produced now in different forms (not just the tincture) specifically for kids. My kids like the gummy stars and there is also a balm. I think I ordered the stars directly from the company but the tincture/spray is available at amazon.
Best, andrea
Sent from my iPhone
I'd also try to keep any getting-ready-for-bed activity (even if you are able to do it long before she's sleepy) to the absolute minimum as she may have negative associations. I would also skip anything that she finds troubling.
With regard to the conversation on melatonin, another option to consider is Rescue Sleep (there is also an alcohol-free tincture called Rescue Night, I believe) made by Bach. It is a gentle "flower remedy" that I have found helpful on occasion. It's the same formula as Rescue Remedy, used to quell anxiety and stress, with the addition of another flower or two specifically for sleep. Rescue Remedy may also be helpful and it is produced now in different forms (not just the tincture) specifically for kids. My kids like the gummy stars and there is also a balm. I think I ordered the stars directly from the company but the tincture/spray is available at amazon.
Best, andrea
Sent from my iPhone
Rinelle
Moving to less sleep controls has been a long ongoing process for us, and
I'm pretty sure we still have a way to go!
My daughter has never slept well, not as a baby, or now as an 8 year old.
Well, as Schuyler said she did as a child, she sleeps fine once she's
asleep, but the transition from awake to asleep isn't easy. We've very
slowly gone from 'Yes, you can stay up a bit longer', to her staying up
until we go to bed most nights (usually around midnight). Even then, she
doesn't really want to go to bed, but neither does she want to stay up on
her own, and I eventually get to the point where I can't stay up any longer.
She won't fall asleep on the lounge, watching TV. She'll be quiet for a
while, watch for an hour or two, then she's recharged, and ready to play
again! It takes anywhere between half an hour and two hours for her to fall
asleep in bed, we play iPad games, watch videos on the iPad, talk, tell
stories, sing songs, wrestle a little (she seems to need the deep
stimulation to be able to move to sleep, some nights more than others) and
snuggle in bed.
I don't mind the time it takes for her to fall asleep, in fact, I've come to
value it as our special time, since we're often all so busy during the day,
this is kind of a forced slow down. However, we still struggle with her not
wanting to make the transition into bed in the first place. This is
lessening, as we're letting her stay up as long as she likes, but there are
still moments of frustration, either because she wants to do something she's
too tired to do (and if I try to help her, everything I do is wrong), or
when either DH or I wants to do something other than what she wants to do.
Hopefully, age and experience will help us find ways around these too.
Tamara
I'm pretty sure we still have a way to go!
My daughter has never slept well, not as a baby, or now as an 8 year old.
Well, as Schuyler said she did as a child, she sleeps fine once she's
asleep, but the transition from awake to asleep isn't easy. We've very
slowly gone from 'Yes, you can stay up a bit longer', to her staying up
until we go to bed most nights (usually around midnight). Even then, she
doesn't really want to go to bed, but neither does she want to stay up on
her own, and I eventually get to the point where I can't stay up any longer.
She won't fall asleep on the lounge, watching TV. She'll be quiet for a
while, watch for an hour or two, then she's recharged, and ready to play
again! It takes anywhere between half an hour and two hours for her to fall
asleep in bed, we play iPad games, watch videos on the iPad, talk, tell
stories, sing songs, wrestle a little (she seems to need the deep
stimulation to be able to move to sleep, some nights more than others) and
snuggle in bed.
I don't mind the time it takes for her to fall asleep, in fact, I've come to
value it as our special time, since we're often all so busy during the day,
this is kind of a forced slow down. However, we still struggle with her not
wanting to make the transition into bed in the first place. This is
lessening, as we're letting her stay up as long as she likes, but there are
still moments of frustration, either because she wants to do something she's
too tired to do (and if I try to help her, everything I do is wrong), or
when either DH or I wants to do something other than what she wants to do.
Hopefully, age and experience will help us find ways around these too.
Tamara
Amy Morgan
I am new here, but I would like to jump in and tell you that we made "sleep spray" in one of our MOPS meetings. We just put some essential oil in water. When my daughter was ready to go to bed, she would ask for the spray. She is now eight and enjoys going to Bath and Body and the like and picks out her "sleep spray". Some people called it monster spray, but I didn't like that idea. I think it tells her body that it is time for sleep. She does it every night. We also used a night time CD. She loves classical music and lullabies.
Amy M. Mrs.Rooster
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Amy M. Mrs.Rooster
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lindaguitar
--- In [email protected], "cyberbreadbowl" <jredwine@...> wrote:
I have it. My natural sleep time is from 4:00 a.m. to noon, or even 6:00 a.m. to 2:00pm. My kids have it too. That was one of the many reasons we started homeschooling/unschooling when we did. The school schedule was wreaking havoc on all of us! Kids and adults who have DSPS also naturally need to eat on a later schedule. They're not going to feel like eating "breakfast" at 7 or 8 a.m. That's like trying to get a person with a "normal" sleep schedule to wake up and eat breakfast at 2 or 3 a.m.
Even now, I work in the afternoons/evenings, and my daughter takes only afternoon college classes, and works an afternoon/evening shift.
It's often very difficult to function in the world of 9 to 5, being such an incurable night-owl. But this sleep phase disorder is genetic, and, from my own experience and based on years of reading about others with DSPS, attempts to "fix" it by using various types of therapies, meds, or melatonin, seem to work only temporarily, at best. (About melatonin: Some articles I've read say that it may not be safe for children to take melatonin, since it IS a hormone, and too much of it can interfere with the child's natural hormone regulation and growth. I take 1/2 of a 3 mg tablet *occasionally*; my daughter takes a whole 3 mg tablet *occasionally*. But she never took it until she was in her teens. And never every night.)
There is also a natural shift to a sleep schedule that is like DSPS that happens to many - perhaps even most - teens.
Just addressing the issue of the 9 y.o., is it possible that she has either genetic/familial DSPS, or is experiencing the teen shift a few years early?
If trying to shift her sleep schedule back a few hours doesn't seem to work, or creates a lot of stress and unhappiness, is she safe staying up until 3 a.m. while the rest of you are asleep? Can she quietly read, watch TV, or play? Is it possible to arrange her day schedule so that she rarely needs to be up and out before noon?
For the 3 y.o. - if she falls asleep at around midnight, will she then sleep at least 9 hours?
It is somewhat easier to deal with delayed sleep cycles if the late sleepers can then get enough sleep. If the children fall asleep really late and wake up early anyway, that's a lot more difficult. Then they're constantly sleep-deprived.
In the latter case, I would suggest that you speak to a pediatrician about whether there are any sleep aids that are safe for children, on a short-term or occasional basis. Also, look up information about herbal/natural sleep aids, such as valerian.
Linda
><foehn_jye@> wrote:
> --- In [email protected], "kristi_beguin"
> > Why does there have to be an "it's time"?There is a circadian rhythm sleep disorder, called DSPS (Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome) or sometimes DSPD (Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder).
> > Can you just go about your evening until she falls asleep? ...
> I wish this worked for us, but at least with mine, the three year
> old often could stay up until midnight or later if we stayed in
> front of the TV, and the nine year old usually stays up until 3 or
> later....
I have it. My natural sleep time is from 4:00 a.m. to noon, or even 6:00 a.m. to 2:00pm. My kids have it too. That was one of the many reasons we started homeschooling/unschooling when we did. The school schedule was wreaking havoc on all of us! Kids and adults who have DSPS also naturally need to eat on a later schedule. They're not going to feel like eating "breakfast" at 7 or 8 a.m. That's like trying to get a person with a "normal" sleep schedule to wake up and eat breakfast at 2 or 3 a.m.
Even now, I work in the afternoons/evenings, and my daughter takes only afternoon college classes, and works an afternoon/evening shift.
It's often very difficult to function in the world of 9 to 5, being such an incurable night-owl. But this sleep phase disorder is genetic, and, from my own experience and based on years of reading about others with DSPS, attempts to "fix" it by using various types of therapies, meds, or melatonin, seem to work only temporarily, at best. (About melatonin: Some articles I've read say that it may not be safe for children to take melatonin, since it IS a hormone, and too much of it can interfere with the child's natural hormone regulation and growth. I take 1/2 of a 3 mg tablet *occasionally*; my daughter takes a whole 3 mg tablet *occasionally*. But she never took it until she was in her teens. And never every night.)
There is also a natural shift to a sleep schedule that is like DSPS that happens to many - perhaps even most - teens.
Just addressing the issue of the 9 y.o., is it possible that she has either genetic/familial DSPS, or is experiencing the teen shift a few years early?
If trying to shift her sleep schedule back a few hours doesn't seem to work, or creates a lot of stress and unhappiness, is she safe staying up until 3 a.m. while the rest of you are asleep? Can she quietly read, watch TV, or play? Is it possible to arrange her day schedule so that she rarely needs to be up and out before noon?
For the 3 y.o. - if she falls asleep at around midnight, will she then sleep at least 9 hours?
It is somewhat easier to deal with delayed sleep cycles if the late sleepers can then get enough sleep. If the children fall asleep really late and wake up early anyway, that's a lot more difficult. Then they're constantly sleep-deprived.
In the latter case, I would suggest that you speak to a pediatrician about whether there are any sleep aids that are safe for children, on a short-term or occasional basis. Also, look up information about herbal/natural sleep aids, such as valerian.
Linda
ladyslinky
I have not read through the whole conversation so I am unsure if anyone else has mentioned this or not. You may want to look into a weighted blanket. Be sure to get the appropriate weight for your child's size though.