New to this and need help with my high schooler
[email protected]
I've been homeschooling my 14yr old son since the middle of third grade. I would call us eclectic homeschoolers at best. My son is highly gifted, but not academic AT ALL. It's been challenging for all of these years to get him to produce much of anything. He has always been a much more hands on learner rather than a book learner, which I respect and and have tried to accommodate. In the back of my mind I always thought about unschooling him, but there was always that voice in my head saying to me, "He will just play video games all day." Now I know several of you might disagree with me, but since I'm not a fan at all of video games, I just don't see a lot of value in them.
So here we are in what would be considered his freshman year of high school and this school year (or whatever you want to call it) has gone from bad to worse. He wants to go to college, but at a time in his life when the requirements are so much greater, I'm still not getting much from him. It's very frustrating to watch such a smart kid with what looks like no goals in mind at all. My husband and I have talked to our son and we have decided to unschool him and let our son just find his own way. He did tell us what classes and subjects he wants to drop this year and which ones he wants to continue with. We told him we support whatever decision he makes. Now we are letting our son self-direct/unschool, whatever you want to call it, but he's still not doing much even with the subjects he has decided he wants to keep doing. I almost feel like we need to deschool from our eclectic approach to homeschooling. It seems like all he wants to do is get on his lap top, text friends, play video games and sleep (which I get since he's a teen). Help! What to do with a smart kid who just seems to lack any motivation?
So here we are in what would be considered his freshman year of high school and this school year (or whatever you want to call it) has gone from bad to worse. He wants to go to college, but at a time in his life when the requirements are so much greater, I'm still not getting much from him. It's very frustrating to watch such a smart kid with what looks like no goals in mind at all. My husband and I have talked to our son and we have decided to unschool him and let our son just find his own way. He did tell us what classes and subjects he wants to drop this year and which ones he wants to continue with. We told him we support whatever decision he makes. Now we are letting our son self-direct/unschool, whatever you want to call it, but he's still not doing much even with the subjects he has decided he wants to keep doing. I almost feel like we need to deschool from our eclectic approach to homeschooling. It seems like all he wants to do is get on his lap top, text friends, play video games and sleep (which I get since he's a teen). Help! What to do with a smart kid who just seems to lack any motivation?
Meredith
<danagribble@...> wrote:
He's 14 and it's the 21st century - he doesn't need to build a house, marry and start his own farm next week ;) He doesn't Need to have any goals right now. It's okay for him to be a kid, still! He needs time to decompress, discover who he is and what sorts of things he really enjoys. It's absolutely normal for kids nowadays to be burned out on education by the time they're in their early teens - happily, in the early teens there's still time for them to heal and rediscover joy and enthusiasm.
The best thing you can possibly do at this point is to step ALL the way back from ideas about goals and what he needs to learn. Let him relax - and relax with him. Take time to get to know him as a person again. Watch movies with him. Play video games with him. Look for other fun things to do together - fun from his perspective which for now will probably mean as far from any kind of educational content as possible. It was a year before Ray stopped saying "I hate learning".
While your son is deschooling, take some time, yourself, to learn about learning - because learning in real life doesn't look much like education. It looks like playing (yes, even playing video games). It looks like hobbies. It looks like daydreaming. It looks like conversations with friends. It looks like texting and surfing the web. Learning is a process of making connections and as such it's often experiential. It Always depends utterly on the perceptions and perspectives of the learner.
A good place to start thinking about learning this way is here:
http://sandradodd.com/connections/
As you learn about learning and relax into seeing your son for who he is, you'll see he's learning a lot already - texting and surfing and playing. Right now, you're locked into a mindset that those things aren't valuable, so you can't see the value in them. That's doing your son a tremendous disservice! He's learning about the world and you're wringing your hands, as it were, because it doesn't look educational.
Just playing video games - just that - both my kids, my unschooled-since-13 adult and my always-unschooled-11yo have learned about motivation, determination, problem solving, computer programming, logic, literary devices (plot, character, scene, setting, foreshadowing, etc), history, mythology, music and mathematics. It's pretty amazing to watch unschooling kids learn!
---Meredith
> What to do with a smart kid who just seems to lack any motivation?Let him play relax for a couple years while you and he both deschool. It may not take him a couple years... but it could. My now-19yo left school at 13 and it took him over a year to deschool - and I think Kelly's son Cameron took even longer. Fortunately, your guy is only 14, so there's time for that - it doesn't take four years to get ready for college.
>>It's very frustrating to watch such a smart kid with what looks like no goals in mind at all.**************
He's 14 and it's the 21st century - he doesn't need to build a house, marry and start his own farm next week ;) He doesn't Need to have any goals right now. It's okay for him to be a kid, still! He needs time to decompress, discover who he is and what sorts of things he really enjoys. It's absolutely normal for kids nowadays to be burned out on education by the time they're in their early teens - happily, in the early teens there's still time for them to heal and rediscover joy and enthusiasm.
The best thing you can possibly do at this point is to step ALL the way back from ideas about goals and what he needs to learn. Let him relax - and relax with him. Take time to get to know him as a person again. Watch movies with him. Play video games with him. Look for other fun things to do together - fun from his perspective which for now will probably mean as far from any kind of educational content as possible. It was a year before Ray stopped saying "I hate learning".
While your son is deschooling, take some time, yourself, to learn about learning - because learning in real life doesn't look much like education. It looks like playing (yes, even playing video games). It looks like hobbies. It looks like daydreaming. It looks like conversations with friends. It looks like texting and surfing the web. Learning is a process of making connections and as such it's often experiential. It Always depends utterly on the perceptions and perspectives of the learner.
A good place to start thinking about learning this way is here:
http://sandradodd.com/connections/
As you learn about learning and relax into seeing your son for who he is, you'll see he's learning a lot already - texting and surfing and playing. Right now, you're locked into a mindset that those things aren't valuable, so you can't see the value in them. That's doing your son a tremendous disservice! He's learning about the world and you're wringing your hands, as it were, because it doesn't look educational.
Just playing video games - just that - both my kids, my unschooled-since-13 adult and my always-unschooled-11yo have learned about motivation, determination, problem solving, computer programming, logic, literary devices (plot, character, scene, setting, foreshadowing, etc), history, mythology, music and mathematics. It's pretty amazing to watch unschooling kids learn!
---Meredith
[email protected]
Meridth, thank you so much for your thoughtful feedback. I guess one can deschool even from homeschooling. I always thought one deschooled when taken out of a brick and mortar school, but I guess any type of schooling, home or at a B&M require deschooling. I did have him take the Iowa Test of Basic Skills last year just to see how he was doing since we have been relaxed homeschoolers and he scored off the charts, and most of the subjects were things we have never covered at home. It did tell me that he is absorbing information on his own. I know I just have to trust the process.
Dana
Dana
--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> <danagribble@> wrote:
> > What to do with a smart kid who just seems to lack any motivation?
>
> Let him play relax for a couple years while you and he both deschool. It may not take him a couple years... but it could. My now-19yo left school at 13 and it took him over a year to deschool - and I think Kelly's son Cameron took even longer. Fortunately, your guy is only 14, so there's time for that - it doesn't take four years to get ready for college.
>
> >>It's very frustrating to watch such a smart kid with what looks like no goals in mind at all.
> **************
>
> He's 14 and it's the 21st century - he doesn't need to build a house, marry and start his own farm next week ;) He doesn't Need to have any goals right now. It's okay for him to be a kid, still! He needs time to decompress, discover who he is and what sorts of things he really enjoys. It's absolutely normal for kids nowadays to be burned out on education by the time they're in their early teens - happily, in the early teens there's still time for them to heal and rediscover joy and enthusiasm.
>
> The best thing you can possibly do at this point is to step ALL the way back from ideas about goals and what he needs to learn. Let him relax - and relax with him. Take time to get to know him as a person again. Watch movies with him. Play video games with him. Look for other fun things to do together - fun from his perspective which for now will probably mean as far from any kind of educational content as possible. It was a year before Ray stopped saying "I hate learning".
>
> While your son is deschooling, take some time, yourself, to learn about learning - because learning in real life doesn't look much like education. It looks like playing (yes, even playing video games). It looks like hobbies. It looks like daydreaming. It looks like conversations with friends. It looks like texting and surfing the web. Learning is a process of making connections and as such it's often experiential. It Always depends utterly on the perceptions and perspectives of the learner.
>
> A good place to start thinking about learning this way is here:
> http://sandradodd.com/connections/
>
> As you learn about learning and relax into seeing your son for who he is, you'll see he's learning a lot already - texting and surfing and playing. Right now, you're locked into a mindset that those things aren't valuable, so you can't see the value in them. That's doing your son a tremendous disservice! He's learning about the world and you're wringing your hands, as it were, because it doesn't look educational.
>
> Just playing video games - just that - both my kids, my unschooled-since-13 adult and my always-unschooled-11yo have learned about motivation, determination, problem solving, computer programming, logic, literary devices (plot, character, scene, setting, foreshadowing, etc), history, mythology, music and mathematics. It's pretty amazing to watch unschooling kids learn!
>
> ---Meredith
>
[email protected]
I did want to add that I just asked my son how he feels about learning. He said, "Do you want to know how I really feel about it, or what I think you want to hear?" Of course I told him I wanted to know how HE felt. He told me he hated it. Well I guess I got my answer on what to do next.
Dana
Dana
--- In [email protected], "danagribble@..." <danagribble@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Meridth, thank you so much for your thoughtful feedback. I guess one can deschool even from homeschooling. I always thought one deschooled when taken out of a brick and mortar school, but I guess any type of schooling, home or at a B&M require deschooling. I did have him take the Iowa Test of Basic Skills last year just to see how he was doing since we have been relaxed homeschoolers and he scored off the charts, and most of the subjects were things we have never covered at home. It did tell me that he is absorbing information on his own. I know I just have to trust the process.
>
> Dana
[email protected]
> Help! What to do with a smart kid who just seems to lack any motivation?Love him. Support him. Talk with him. Listen. Enjoy his company!
>
At 14, with input from all around, he may think he wants to go to college. It's not the answer for everyone. And not everyone is ready at the same age.
And that's OK.
Nance
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 24, 2012, at 1:38 PM, danagribble@... wrote:
Highly gifted people are "supposed" to do "great" things. People expect them to be doctors and scientists. People tend to project their own dreams onto them, wanting highly gifted people to do what they themselves would want to do if only they had that gift.
But what if a highly gifted person really wants to be an auto mechanic? Or work in a flower shop? Or raise show dogs?
What if a highly gifted child loves video games? Or drawing and writing about Pokemon? Or skateboarding?
The highly gifted can end up feeling like a disappointment just by following their interests. Whereas an average person gets a great deal more freedom from expectations.
Why You Can't Let Go
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/talk
"Products" of Education
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/products
They should help you see why you expect him to produce something and why that expectation is what's getting in your way of helping him learn.
If you read the two above linked pages, I hope you see why that isn't what unschooling is. And why that expectation can make it look like unschooling isn't working.
Unschooling is creating a rich, supportive environment for kids to explore their interests in with opportunities to be exposed to potential new interests. In that environment kids grow and blossom into who they are.
My daughter's unschooling years looked a lot like drawing comics, playing video games, watching TV, reading manga together. It very rarely looked like anything done in school. *And yet* despite her lack of years of math classes, she decided to take her father's college statistics class for fun. And she ended up being at the top of the class, against students some of whom had more years of formal math than she'd been alive ;-) But their math had been formulas and memorization that didn't lead to understanding. Her math had been video games and art and life that allowed her to use math concepts to pull information that she wanted from the world around her. Because she used the concepts as tools for her own needs, she had a deep understanding of what they were and what they could do for her.
*Don't* expect your son to take college statistics at 14. My daughter did well because she was doing it for fun. There were zero expectations from her. Your son's had years of pressure to do formal learning. He needs years of no pressure to be able to see classes as a way to explore an interest rather than as a requirement to drag himself through to get to the end. He needs years of exploring in the myriad of other ways that schools can't accommodate in order to get a handle on how he learns.
(I keep saying school and classes because that's what you're vision of the "best" learning looks like. When in reality, that kind of learning is not only difficult since it doesn't match how humans naturally learn but also very poor in terms of retention and understanding.)
We each have our likes and dislikes. I didn't like thrash metal or death metal. It didn't have value *for me*. But since my goal is to support my daughter's interests and explorations -- which is what unschooling is -- had I ignored my daughter's interest as lacking value, I would have shut off a big doorway between the two of us and between her and the world. To support her I saw the music through her enjoyment. I was open to her sharing. I listened when she talked about what excited her. And I gained a better understanding of metal music and of her. And I can ask insightful questions, know why she's excited about something and get excited with her.
If you aren't a fan of what he enjoys, you're missing opportunities to connect with who he is.
What he loves *is* who he is.
This will be hard to hear -- and it's a trap so many parents fall into -- is you want the best for him. But by focusing on "the best" you're creating an ideal you're trying to mold him into. And you're focusing your attention on the ideal rather than on him. So when he does things that he enjoys, that are a part of who he is, that don't fit with your ideal, you get upset with him for not living up to his potential.
Imagine happily living your life and realizing you happiness is disappointing someone you love?
What if your personal interest that brought joy into your life was baking Italian pastries? Or reading bodice busters? Or sewing quilts? Or hiking? What if you found out your husband was disappointed that you weren't spending your free time living up to what he believed you could be? Wouldn't it feel like it wasn't you he loved but some ideal he wanted you to be?
It seems so wonderful to want the best for our kids. But what's really best for *anyone* is support in exploring who they are, not in who we believe they could be. *If* who they could be *is* who they have a burning desire to be, that's who they'll be. Even if it doesn't look like they're headed there. Real learning takes convoluted paths through interests that can seem dead end and worthless. (Like video games. Like teen dramas on TV. Like texting friends.) But if those interests fascinate someone, they're pulling a great deal of learning from them that's important to who they are and what fascinates them about life. And it's far deeper than it looks on the surface.
Learning is what humans do. We want to understand how the world works. Unless well meaning teachers (and parents) try to get a child to *look* like he's learning in a way that eases the worries of adults.
But if school didn't exist, that's not what the life of a 14 yo would look like.
I could describe what a 14 yo, living in a rich, supportive environment looks like, but you would think it's someone going no where, just playing and enjoying the good life.
But if you could see that those 14 yos grow into vibrant adults who go out in the world ready to explore what lights their fires more fully through college, or jobs (or jobs to support their exploring), or entrepreneurship, it wouldn't look like "nothing". It would look like learning and growing into who they are.
The world *believes* it takes 12+ years to prepare for college or getting a job. Since unschoolers don't do any of that and yet get into college and get jobs, the world is seriously deluded ;-) (Though their delusion makes sense when all they know are schooled kids and drop outs.)
Unschooled kids who want to go to college can take community college courses if they have areas in their knowledge a college might want to see beefed up. (Which doesn't mean the child is lacking. It just means colleges expect some special college skills that aren't easily picked up by exploring. It's an artificial environment so it's not surprising that some of the skills are special to school.)
And it rarely takes much for unschoolers to prepare. A math class to get a better grasp of notation. A writing class to get a better grasp of the writing form colleges will expect papers to be in. There may be a few more, but that's generally it. And that's because if an unschooled kid wants to go into science, they've been doing science. If they want to go into history, they've been doing history. (Though it may not look like such! Their explorations might not have looked like school science and history.)
The thing is that home schooled kids get the chance to be *different* from the 1000s of applicants colleges get. But their parents blow that opportunity by trying to make them look like "better" schooled kids.
Unschooled kids get the opportunity to show colleges something different: leading vibrant lives, exploring their passions. Most colleges, especially the highly selective ones, have spots set aside for alternative students who will bring a vibrancy to the mix of perfect SAT scores and perfect transcripts.
He's a kid. He should be exploring what fascinates him about the world to figure out what he loves and who he is. If he locks into goals because it's expected of him before he's fully formed, he'll be warping his growth. (Some *kids* lock onto goals early because that's who they are. An unschooling parents' role is to support those interests but expect them to change! If they don't, they don't. If they do, the parent can roll with the change.)
While he's deschooling, deschool yourselves. Read about what unschooling is and what it looks like. Read stories of now adult unschoolers to see how it helped them be who they are.
There's loads here:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
When people say someone "lacks motivation" it means "they aren't living up to what I expect people like him to be." But shouldn't we be leading the lives that fulfill us, not the lives that fulfill someone else?
I think if you let go of the expectations you'll see a great deal of motivation. You'll see he's motivated to explore what interests *him* in the way it interests *him*.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> My son is highly gifted, but not academic AT ALL.I would let go of the gifted label. Surprisingly it can be as damaging as labeling below average abilities. That's because labeling creates expectations and a vision of who someone is "supposed" to be and what they're "supposed" to do and keeps people from seeing who someone actually is.
Highly gifted people are "supposed" to do "great" things. People expect them to be doctors and scientists. People tend to project their own dreams onto them, wanting highly gifted people to do what they themselves would want to do if only they had that gift.
But what if a highly gifted person really wants to be an auto mechanic? Or work in a flower shop? Or raise show dogs?
What if a highly gifted child loves video games? Or drawing and writing about Pokemon? Or skateboarding?
The highly gifted can end up feeling like a disappointment just by following their interests. Whereas an average person gets a great deal more freedom from expectations.
> It's been challenging for all of these years to get him to produce much of anything.Try reading these two:
Why You Can't Let Go
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/talk
"Products" of Education
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/products
They should help you see why you expect him to produce something and why that expectation is what's getting in your way of helping him learn.
> In the back of my mind I always thought about unschooling him, butI suspect your vision of unschooling is letting kids learn what they want and they'll find their own pathway through much of what's taught in school.
> there was always that voice in my head saying to me, "He will just
> play video games all day."
If you read the two above linked pages, I hope you see why that isn't what unschooling is. And why that expectation can make it look like unschooling isn't working.
Unschooling is creating a rich, supportive environment for kids to explore their interests in with opportunities to be exposed to potential new interests. In that environment kids grow and blossom into who they are.
My daughter's unschooling years looked a lot like drawing comics, playing video games, watching TV, reading manga together. It very rarely looked like anything done in school. *And yet* despite her lack of years of math classes, she decided to take her father's college statistics class for fun. And she ended up being at the top of the class, against students some of whom had more years of formal math than she'd been alive ;-) But their math had been formulas and memorization that didn't lead to understanding. Her math had been video games and art and life that allowed her to use math concepts to pull information that she wanted from the world around her. Because she used the concepts as tools for her own needs, she had a deep understanding of what they were and what they could do for her.
*Don't* expect your son to take college statistics at 14. My daughter did well because she was doing it for fun. There were zero expectations from her. Your son's had years of pressure to do formal learning. He needs years of no pressure to be able to see classes as a way to explore an interest rather than as a requirement to drag himself through to get to the end. He needs years of exploring in the myriad of other ways that schools can't accommodate in order to get a handle on how he learns.
(I keep saying school and classes because that's what you're vision of the "best" learning looks like. When in reality, that kind of learning is not only difficult since it doesn't match how humans naturally learn but also very poor in terms of retention and understanding.)
> Now I know several of you might disagree with me, but sinceBut what if your son said, "I'm not a big fan of [something you value highly], I just don't see a lot of value in it," would that mean his lack of appreciation meant the thing really lacked value? Or would the statement sound like it came from ignorance? Or might it mean "It's just not for me?"
> I'm not a fan at all of video games, I just don't see a lot of value in them.
We each have our likes and dislikes. I didn't like thrash metal or death metal. It didn't have value *for me*. But since my goal is to support my daughter's interests and explorations -- which is what unschooling is -- had I ignored my daughter's interest as lacking value, I would have shut off a big doorway between the two of us and between her and the world. To support her I saw the music through her enjoyment. I was open to her sharing. I listened when she talked about what excited her. And I gained a better understanding of metal music and of her. And I can ask insightful questions, know why she's excited about something and get excited with her.
If you aren't a fan of what he enjoys, you're missing opportunities to connect with who he is.
What he loves *is* who he is.
This will be hard to hear -- and it's a trap so many parents fall into -- is you want the best for him. But by focusing on "the best" you're creating an ideal you're trying to mold him into. And you're focusing your attention on the ideal rather than on him. So when he does things that he enjoys, that are a part of who he is, that don't fit with your ideal, you get upset with him for not living up to his potential.
Imagine happily living your life and realizing you happiness is disappointing someone you love?
What if your personal interest that brought joy into your life was baking Italian pastries? Or reading bodice busters? Or sewing quilts? Or hiking? What if you found out your husband was disappointed that you weren't spending your free time living up to what he believed you could be? Wouldn't it feel like it wasn't you he loved but some ideal he wanted you to be?
It seems so wonderful to want the best for our kids. But what's really best for *anyone* is support in exploring who they are, not in who we believe they could be. *If* who they could be *is* who they have a burning desire to be, that's who they'll be. Even if it doesn't look like they're headed there. Real learning takes convoluted paths through interests that can seem dead end and worthless. (Like video games. Like teen dramas on TV. Like texting friends.) But if those interests fascinate someone, they're pulling a great deal of learning from them that's important to who they are and what fascinates them about life. And it's far deeper than it looks on the surface.
Learning is what humans do. We want to understand how the world works. Unless well meaning teachers (and parents) try to get a child to *look* like he's learning in a way that eases the worries of adults.
> So here we are in what would be considered his freshman year of high schoolThe undamaged part of him is calling it life of a 14 yo. But because most of the world's 14 yos are in school, you're expecting that's what 14 yos look like: They're reading textbooks. Doing homework. Doing projects, Grousing about school ;-)
> and this school year (or whatever you want to call it) has gone from bad to worse.
But if school didn't exist, that's not what the life of a 14 yo would look like.
I could describe what a 14 yo, living in a rich, supportive environment looks like, but you would think it's someone going no where, just playing and enjoying the good life.
But if you could see that those 14 yos grow into vibrant adults who go out in the world ready to explore what lights their fires more fully through college, or jobs (or jobs to support their exploring), or entrepreneurship, it wouldn't look like "nothing". It would look like learning and growing into who they are.
> He wants to go to college, but at a time in his life when theHis requirements at 14 should be to be 14 ;-)
> requirements are so much greater, I'm still not getting much from him.
The world *believes* it takes 12+ years to prepare for college or getting a job. Since unschoolers don't do any of that and yet get into college and get jobs, the world is seriously deluded ;-) (Though their delusion makes sense when all they know are schooled kids and drop outs.)
Unschooled kids who want to go to college can take community college courses if they have areas in their knowledge a college might want to see beefed up. (Which doesn't mean the child is lacking. It just means colleges expect some special college skills that aren't easily picked up by exploring. It's an artificial environment so it's not surprising that some of the skills are special to school.)
And it rarely takes much for unschoolers to prepare. A math class to get a better grasp of notation. A writing class to get a better grasp of the writing form colleges will expect papers to be in. There may be a few more, but that's generally it. And that's because if an unschooled kid wants to go into science, they've been doing science. If they want to go into history, they've been doing history. (Though it may not look like such! Their explorations might not have looked like school science and history.)
The thing is that home schooled kids get the chance to be *different* from the 1000s of applicants colleges get. But their parents blow that opportunity by trying to make them look like "better" schooled kids.
Unschooled kids get the opportunity to show colleges something different: leading vibrant lives, exploring their passions. Most colleges, especially the highly selective ones, have spots set aside for alternative students who will bring a vibrancy to the mix of perfect SAT scores and perfect transcripts.
> It's very frustrating to watch such a smart kid with what looks like no goals in mind at all.At 14 he's still trying to figure out who he is. How could he have goals. He's only be on the planet for 14 years, and for 3 or so of them he was pooping in his diapers ;-)
He's a kid. He should be exploring what fascinates him about the world to figure out what he loves and who he is. If he locks into goals because it's expected of him before he's fully formed, he'll be warping his growth. (Some *kids* lock onto goals early because that's who they are. An unschooling parents' role is to support those interests but expect them to change! If they don't, they don't. If they do, the parent can roll with the change.)
> He did tell us what classes and subjects he wants to dropThen the classes aren't meeting *his* needs or expectations. They're holding him back. *You're* holding him back by expecting learning to look like classes and studying academics. You're holding his learning back by not seeing the learning in *anything* and *everything* he does. (Though if he's deschooling, much of the learning will be learning how to let go of the idea that learning looks like school and that school stinks.)
> this year and which ones he wants to continue with. We
> told him we support whatever decision he makes. Now we
> are letting our son self-direct/unschool, whatever you want
> to call it, but he's still not doing much even with the subjects
> he has decided he wants to keep doing.
> I almost feel like we need to deschool from our eclectic aThat's what deschooling will look like. It's what unschooling might look like. Especially at 14. So he's got a double whammy of needs that's going to keep him from doing anything that looks like what you expect learning to look like!
> pproach to homeschooling. It seems like all he wants to
> do is get on his lap top, text friends, play video games
> and sleep (which I get since he's a teen).
While he's deschooling, deschool yourselves. Read about what unschooling is and what it looks like. Read stories of now adult unschoolers to see how it helped them be who they are.
There's loads here:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
> What to do with a smart kid who just seems to lack any motivation?Stop thinking of him as "a smart kid" (which is a label). Think of him as [his name].
When people say someone "lacks motivation" it means "they aren't living up to what I expect people like him to be." But shouldn't we be leading the lives that fulfill us, not the lives that fulfill someone else?
I think if you let go of the expectations you'll see a great deal of motivation. You'll see he's motivated to explore what interests *him* in the way it interests *him*.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 24, 2012, at 8:33 PM, danagribble@... wrote:
�Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.� ~ Albert Einstein
Tests miss everything a child is that isn't on the test.
Do tests test whether someone will be successful in finding their path to a happy, fulfilled life or in their ability to absorb facts about the small bit of the world that's on the test?
There is *some* correlation between those who do well on such generalized tests and professional jobs. But the correlation isn't with the test scores. It's with *why* the child does well on the test. Those who *enjoy* reading the kind of information that's on tests are have personalities that are more likely to fit into professional jobs.
The fault comes when performance on the test is seen as the reason for being well suited to well paying jobs. And thus the pressure to perform well. And the pressure to go into professions that don't light their fires so they can be "successful". A child who has information pushed into him isn't the same as a child who has pulled the information in. The second can slip into the professional world. The first is a good candidate for spending his leisure time in the self-help section of the bookstore trying to figure out why he isn't happy since he did everything he as supposed to do and passed all the tests. ;-)
The fault comes from seeing *only* performance on the test as being an indicator of worth. Kids whose skills and interests don't match the test are fish being tested on their tree climbing ability.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I did have him take the Iowa Test of Basic Skills last year just to seeAnd if he had done poorly it wouldn't have meant he wasn't learning.
> how he was doing since we have been relaxed homeschoolers and he
> scored off the charts, and most of the subjects were things we have
> never covered at home. It did tell me that he is absorbing information on his own.
�Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.� ~ Albert Einstein
Tests miss everything a child is that isn't on the test.
Do tests test whether someone will be successful in finding their path to a happy, fulfilled life or in their ability to absorb facts about the small bit of the world that's on the test?
There is *some* correlation between those who do well on such generalized tests and professional jobs. But the correlation isn't with the test scores. It's with *why* the child does well on the test. Those who *enjoy* reading the kind of information that's on tests are have personalities that are more likely to fit into professional jobs.
The fault comes when performance on the test is seen as the reason for being well suited to well paying jobs. And thus the pressure to perform well. And the pressure to go into professions that don't light their fires so they can be "successful". A child who has information pushed into him isn't the same as a child who has pulled the information in. The second can slip into the professional world. The first is a good candidate for spending his leisure time in the self-help section of the bookstore trying to figure out why he isn't happy since he did everything he as supposed to do and passed all the tests. ;-)
The fault comes from seeing *only* performance on the test as being an indicator of worth. Kids whose skills and interests don't match the test are fish being tested on their tree climbing ability.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Thank you so much for your response to my questions. It is true when you have a really smart kid that the expectations are there, and as parents we have to learn that our child's dreams are not always our dreams for them. I have never been sorry though that we had IQ testing done when he was younger because highly/profoundly gifted kids do have certain needs and idiosyncrasies that need to be honored and understood. My goal was never to label, but rather to fully understand his intensities. We took him to the Gifted Development Center in Denver, and they gave me the best advice ever, "Take him our of public school." For that I am grateful.
We did talk to our son last night and as of today we are deschooling as a family. I do look forward to the adventure. Now off to read the links you posted.
Dana
We did talk to our son last night and as of today we are deschooling as a family. I do look forward to the adventure. Now off to read the links you posted.
Dana
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 24, 2012, at 1:38 PM, danagribble@... wrote:
>
> > My son is highly gifted, but not academic AT ALL.
>
> I would let go of the gifted label. Surprisingly it can be as damaging as labeling below average abilities. That's because labeling creates expectations and a vision of who someone is "supposed" to be and what they're "supposed" to do and keeps people from seeing who someone actually is.
>
> Highly gifted people are "supposed" to do "great" things. People expect them to be doctors and scientists. People tend to project their own dreams onto them, wanting highly gifted people to do what they themselves would want to do if only they had that gift.
>
> But what if a highly gifted person really wants to be an auto mechanic? Or work in a flower shop? Or raise show dogs?
>
> What if a highly gifted child loves video games? Or drawing and writing about Pokemon? Or skateboarding?
>
> The highly gifted can end up feeling like a disappointment just by following their interests. Whereas an average person gets a great deal more freedom from expectations.
>
> > It's been challenging for all of these years to get him to produce much of anything.
>
> Try reading these two:
>
> Why You Can't Let Go
> http://sandradodd.com/joyce/talk
>
> "Products" of Education
> http://sandradodd.com/joyce/products
>
> They should help you see why you expect him to produce something and why that expectation is what's getting in your way of helping him learn.
>
> > In the back of my mind I always thought about unschooling him, but
> > there was always that voice in my head saying to me, "He will just
> > play video games all day."
>
> I suspect your vision of unschooling is letting kids learn what they want and they'll find their own pathway through much of what's taught in school.
>
> If you read the two above linked pages, I hope you see why that isn't what unschooling is. And why that expectation can make it look like unschooling isn't working.
>
> Unschooling is creating a rich, supportive environment for kids to explore their interests in with opportunities to be exposed to potential new interests. In that environment kids grow and blossom into who they are.
>
> My daughter's unschooling years looked a lot like drawing comics, playing video games, watching TV, reading manga together. It very rarely looked like anything done in school. *And yet* despite her lack of years of math classes, she decided to take her father's college statistics class for fun. And she ended up being at the top of the class, against students some of whom had more years of formal math than she'd been alive ;-) But their math had been formulas and memorization that didn't lead to understanding. Her math had been video games and art and life that allowed her to use math concepts to pull information that she wanted from the world around her. Because she used the concepts as tools for her own needs, she had a deep understanding of what they were and what they could do for her.
>
> *Don't* expect your son to take college statistics at 14. My daughter did well because she was doing it for fun. There were zero expectations from her. Your son's had years of pressure to do formal learning. He needs years of no pressure to be able to see classes as a way to explore an interest rather than as a requirement to drag himself through to get to the end. He needs years of exploring in the myriad of other ways that schools can't accommodate in order to get a handle on how he learns.
>
> (I keep saying school and classes because that's what you're vision of the "best" learning looks like. When in reality, that kind of learning is not only difficult since it doesn't match how humans naturally learn but also very poor in terms of retention and understanding.)
>
> > Now I know several of you might disagree with me, but since
> > I'm not a fan at all of video games, I just don't see a lot of value in them.
>
> But what if your son said, "I'm not a big fan of [something you value highly], I just don't see a lot of value in it," would that mean his lack of appreciation meant the thing really lacked value? Or would the statement sound like it came from ignorance? Or might it mean "It's just not for me?"
>
> We each have our likes and dislikes. I didn't like thrash metal or death metal. It didn't have value *for me*. But since my goal is to support my daughter's interests and explorations -- which is what unschooling is -- had I ignored my daughter's interest as lacking value, I would have shut off a big doorway between the two of us and between her and the world. To support her I saw the music through her enjoyment. I was open to her sharing. I listened when she talked about what excited her. And I gained a better understanding of metal music and of her. And I can ask insightful questions, know why she's excited about something and get excited with her.
>
> If you aren't a fan of what he enjoys, you're missing opportunities to connect with who he is.
>
> What he loves *is* who he is.
>
> This will be hard to hear -- and it's a trap so many parents fall into -- is you want the best for him. But by focusing on "the best" you're creating an ideal you're trying to mold him into. And you're focusing your attention on the ideal rather than on him. So when he does things that he enjoys, that are a part of who he is, that don't fit with your ideal, you get upset with him for not living up to his potential.
>
> Imagine happily living your life and realizing you happiness is disappointing someone you love?
>
> What if your personal interest that brought joy into your life was baking Italian pastries? Or reading bodice busters? Or sewing quilts? Or hiking? What if you found out your husband was disappointed that you weren't spending your free time living up to what he believed you could be? Wouldn't it feel like it wasn't you he loved but some ideal he wanted you to be?
>
> It seems so wonderful to want the best for our kids. But what's really best for *anyone* is support in exploring who they are, not in who we believe they could be. *If* who they could be *is* who they have a burning desire to be, that's who they'll be. Even if it doesn't look like they're headed there. Real learning takes convoluted paths through interests that can seem dead end and worthless. (Like video games. Like teen dramas on TV. Like texting friends.) But if those interests fascinate someone, they're pulling a great deal of learning from them that's important to who they are and what fascinates them about life. And it's far deeper than it looks on the surface.
>
> Learning is what humans do. We want to understand how the world works. Unless well meaning teachers (and parents) try to get a child to *look* like he's learning in a way that eases the worries of adults.
>
> > So here we are in what would be considered his freshman year of high school
> > and this school year (or whatever you want to call it) has gone from bad to worse.
>
> The undamaged part of him is calling it life of a 14 yo. But because most of the world's 14 yos are in school, you're expecting that's what 14 yos look like: They're reading textbooks. Doing homework. Doing projects, Grousing about school ;-)
>
> But if school didn't exist, that's not what the life of a 14 yo would look like.
>
> I could describe what a 14 yo, living in a rich, supportive environment looks like, but you would think it's someone going no where, just playing and enjoying the good life.
>
> But if you could see that those 14 yos grow into vibrant adults who go out in the world ready to explore what lights their fires more fully through college, or jobs (or jobs to support their exploring), or entrepreneurship, it wouldn't look like "nothing". It would look like learning and growing into who they are.
>
> > He wants to go to college, but at a time in his life when the
> > requirements are so much greater, I'm still not getting much from him.
>
> His requirements at 14 should be to be 14 ;-)
>
> The world *believes* it takes 12+ years to prepare for college or getting a job. Since unschoolers don't do any of that and yet get into college and get jobs, the world is seriously deluded ;-) (Though their delusion makes sense when all they know are schooled kids and drop outs.)
>
> Unschooled kids who want to go to college can take community college courses if they have areas in their knowledge a college might want to see beefed up. (Which doesn't mean the child is lacking. It just means colleges expect some special college skills that aren't easily picked up by exploring. It's an artificial environment so it's not surprising that some of the skills are special to school.)
>
> And it rarely takes much for unschoolers to prepare. A math class to get a better grasp of notation. A writing class to get a better grasp of the writing form colleges will expect papers to be in. There may be a few more, but that's generally it. And that's because if an unschooled kid wants to go into science, they've been doing science. If they want to go into history, they've been doing history. (Though it may not look like such! Their explorations might not have looked like school science and history.)
>
> The thing is that home schooled kids get the chance to be *different* from the 1000s of applicants colleges get. But their parents blow that opportunity by trying to make them look like "better" schooled kids.
>
> Unschooled kids get the opportunity to show colleges something different: leading vibrant lives, exploring their passions. Most colleges, especially the highly selective ones, have spots set aside for alternative students who will bring a vibrancy to the mix of perfect SAT scores and perfect transcripts.
>
> > It's very frustrating to watch such a smart kid with what looks like no goals in mind at all.
>
> At 14 he's still trying to figure out who he is. How could he have goals. He's only be on the planet for 14 years, and for 3 or so of them he was pooping in his diapers ;-)
>
> He's a kid. He should be exploring what fascinates him about the world to figure out what he loves and who he is. If he locks into goals because it's expected of him before he's fully formed, he'll be warping his growth. (Some *kids* lock onto goals early because that's who they are. An unschooling parents' role is to support those interests but expect them to change! If they don't, they don't. If they do, the parent can roll with the change.)
>
> > He did tell us what classes and subjects he wants to drop
> > this year and which ones he wants to continue with. We
> > told him we support whatever decision he makes. Now we
> > are letting our son self-direct/unschool, whatever you want
> > to call it, but he's still not doing much even with the subjects
> > he has decided he wants to keep doing.
>
> Then the classes aren't meeting *his* needs or expectations. They're holding him back. *You're* holding him back by expecting learning to look like classes and studying academics. You're holding his learning back by not seeing the learning in *anything* and *everything* he does. (Though if he's deschooling, much of the learning will be learning how to let go of the idea that learning looks like school and that school stinks.)
>
> > I almost feel like we need to deschool from our eclectic a
> > pproach to homeschooling. It seems like all he wants to
> > do is get on his lap top, text friends, play video games
> > and sleep (which I get since he's a teen).
>
> That's what deschooling will look like. It's what unschooling might look like. Especially at 14. So he's got a double whammy of needs that's going to keep him from doing anything that looks like what you expect learning to look like!
>
> While he's deschooling, deschool yourselves. Read about what unschooling is and what it looks like. Read stories of now adult unschoolers to see how it helped them be who they are.
>
> There's loads here:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
>
> > What to do with a smart kid who just seems to lack any motivation?
>
> Stop thinking of him as "a smart kid" (which is a label). Think of him as [his name].
>
> When people say someone "lacks motivation" it means "they aren't living up to what I expect people like him to be." But shouldn't we be leading the lives that fulfill us, not the lives that fulfill someone else?
>
> I think if you let go of the expectations you'll see a great deal of motivation. You'll see he's motivated to explore what interests *him* in the way it interests *him*.
>
> Joyce
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[email protected]
Heavens, I am so grateful for all of the posts on this topic, and especially for Dana for posting her original concern. Many thanks, to all of you.
My 15 y.o. son has been unschooling for just over a year now (we followed a curriculum for several months after pulling him from public school in 7th grade); currently, his time is filled with sleeping and video games (and talking to friends via video games). Myself having been raised in a family that esteemed an old-fashioned Puritan-style work ethic above all, I find I worry about the perils of sloth quite a bit, certainly far more than reason, reality, and experience would dictate. The saving grace is that not only does my son have the most even temperament of any teenager I've ever met (he's not sleep deprived!), but he reports being happy as a clam. How can I argue with that kind of success? However, I still struggle with cognitive dissonance, since my long-held beliefs no longer are in sync with reality ("one must work hard to be happy" and "activity is only meaningful if it is hard/boring/hurts/not enjoyable"). Fortunately, with awareness comes ability to change, and I'm working through the process, though it's taking longer than I expected. I'm getting there, though :)
I don't actively participate much in this group, but I read every post and have since I joined. I have learned more than I'd have thought possible...and there must be a lesson there, too.
Again, thank you...you've helped give me the courage to walk the road less traveled, and the encouragement to continue when the road is rough.
My 15 y.o. son has been unschooling for just over a year now (we followed a curriculum for several months after pulling him from public school in 7th grade); currently, his time is filled with sleeping and video games (and talking to friends via video games). Myself having been raised in a family that esteemed an old-fashioned Puritan-style work ethic above all, I find I worry about the perils of sloth quite a bit, certainly far more than reason, reality, and experience would dictate. The saving grace is that not only does my son have the most even temperament of any teenager I've ever met (he's not sleep deprived!), but he reports being happy as a clam. How can I argue with that kind of success? However, I still struggle with cognitive dissonance, since my long-held beliefs no longer are in sync with reality ("one must work hard to be happy" and "activity is only meaningful if it is hard/boring/hurts/not enjoyable"). Fortunately, with awareness comes ability to change, and I'm working through the process, though it's taking longer than I expected. I'm getting there, though :)
I don't actively participate much in this group, but I read every post and have since I joined. I have learned more than I'd have thought possible...and there must be a lesson there, too.
Again, thank you...you've helped give me the courage to walk the road less traveled, and the encouragement to continue when the road is rough.
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> What he loves *is* who he is.
>
> This will be hard to hear -- and it's a trap so many parents fall into -- is you want the best for him. But by focusing on "the best" you're creating an ideal you're trying to mold him into. And you're focusing your attention on the ideal rather than on him. So when he does things that he enjoys, that are a part of who he is, that don't fit with your ideal, you get upset with him for not living up to his potential.
>
> Imagine happily living your life and realizing you happiness is disappointing someone you love?
>
> What if your personal interest that brought joy into your life was baking Italian pastries? Or reading bodice busters? Or sewing quilts? Or hiking? What if you found out your husband was disappointed that you weren't spending your free time living up to what he believed you could be? Wouldn't it feel like it wasn't you he loved but some ideal he wanted you to be?
>
> It seems so wonderful to want the best for our kids. But what's really best for *anyone* is support in exploring who they are, not in who we believe they could be. *If* who they could be *is* who they have a burning desire to be, that's who they'll be. Even if it doesn't look like they're headed there. Real learning takes convoluted paths through interests that can seem dead end and worthless. (Like video games. Like teen dramas on TV. Like texting friends.) But if those interests fascinate someone, they're pulling a great deal of learning from them that's important to who they are and what fascinates them about life. And it's far deeper than it looks on the surface.
>
>
>
> I could describe what a 14 yo, living in a rich, supportive environment looks like, but you would think it's someone going no where, just playing and enjoying the good life.
>
> But if you could see that those 14 yos grow into vibrant adults who go out in the world ready to explore what lights their fires more fully through college, or jobs (or jobs to support their exploring), or entrepreneurship, it wouldn't look like "nothing". It would look like learning and growing into who they are.
>
>
> > He did tell us what classes and subjects he wants to drop
> > this year and which ones he wants to continue with. We
> > told him we support whatever decision he makes. Now we
> > are letting our son self-direct/unschool, whatever you want
> > to call it, but he's still not doing much even with the subjects
> > he has decided he wants to keep doing.
>
> Then the classes aren't meeting *his* needs or expectations. They're holding him back. *You're* holding him back by expecting learning to look like classes and studying academics. You're holding his learning back by not seeing the learning in *anything* and *everything* he does. (Though if he's deschooling, much of the learning will be learning how to let go of the idea that learning looks like school and that school stinks.)
>
>
>
> I think if you let go of the expectations you'll see a great deal of motivation. You'll see he's motivated to explore what interests *him* in the way it interests *him*.
>
> Joyce
>
Schuyler
I assume, because you don't state your answer, that you are planning on backing off, on letting him heal his relationship with learning by slowly coming to terms with learning being a part of everything. To say one hates learning is to have absolutely no understanding that learning occurs always, all weathers, all wheres. He's been brainwashed, as so many people have, to believe that learning is a special condition that only occurs within the construct of school, be it at school or at home. How awful.
I hope your answer is that you will refrain from testing him to comfort yourself. I hope your answer is that you will not scrutinise his activities for those things that look like an academic education. I hope that your answer is that you will examine your own relationship with learning to see why you still need assurance to believe that it is occurring.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: "danagribble@..." <danagribble@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 25 October 2012, 11:08
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: New to this and need help with my high schooler
I did want to add that I just asked my son how he feels about learning. He said, "Do you want to know how I really feel about it, or what I think you want to hear?" Of course I told him I wanted to know how HE felt. He told me he hated it. Well I guess I got my answer on what to do next.
Dana
I hope your answer is that you will refrain from testing him to comfort yourself. I hope your answer is that you will not scrutinise his activities for those things that look like an academic education. I hope that your answer is that you will examine your own relationship with learning to see why you still need assurance to believe that it is occurring.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: "danagribble@..." <danagribble@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 25 October 2012, 11:08
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: New to this and need help with my high schooler
I did want to add that I just asked my son how he feels about learning. He said, "Do you want to know how I really feel about it, or what I think you want to hear?" Of course I told him I wanted to know how HE felt. He told me he hated it. Well I guess I got my answer on what to do next.
Dana
--- In [email protected], "danagribble@..." <danagribble@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Meridth, thank you so much for your thoughtful feedback. I guess one can deschool even from homeschooling. I always thought one deschooled when taken out of a brick and mortar school, but I guess any type of schooling, home or at a B&M require deschooling. I did have him take the Iowa Test of Basic Skills last year just to see how he was doing since we have been relaxed homeschoolers and he scored off the charts, and most of the subjects were things we have never covered at home. It did tell me that he is absorbing information on his own. I know I just have to trust the process.
>
> Dana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lindaguitar
My kids, age 21 and 19, were both unschooled, and are both in college now.
I didn't worry about the "academic" stuff. I knew that they could learn what they needed to know to get into college, if they wanted to go to college, in a year or two. And, indeed, they did! :-)
They learned through a combination of online courses (starting at about age 16), classes they chose to take with our local homeschool group over all their homeschooling years (some "academic", and some in the arts and sports and handicraft skills, such as woodworking), special classes at the zoo, the Boys and Girls Club, a Comcast studio, etc, participating in Venture Scouts, volunteering at a local theater, and through the internet, books, casual conversations with lots of people, watching TV/movies/videos, and playing video games.
If you can manage to accept the concept of whole-life-learning, and forget, for a moment, that high schools and colleges break all knowledge into totally separate subjects, it will probably be easier for you to trust your kids to learn what they need to, when they need to. My kids did not learn biology ONLY through a formal biology course, history ONLY through a formal history course, math ONLY through formal math courses, or vocabulary/grammar/writing skills ONLY through formal English courses. *Most* of what they learned for most college-required "subjects" is just "out there" in popular culture, or came from their interactions with my husband and me and all the other people they know.
The one thing that I would recommend planning ahead for two years of study before college is a foreign language - and that's only if your teen doesn't already know a second language at all, and won't have the opportunity to learn through travel and immersion in a foreign culture or through conversing regularly with a foreigner they know in your area. (I've known several unschooled teens who did learn a foreign language through travel and spending a year abroad.)
Actually, in some states, students still don't even need a foreign language at all to get into some colleges and get a degree. But studying a language for the equivalent of 2 years gives them more options later.
Linda
I didn't worry about the "academic" stuff. I knew that they could learn what they needed to know to get into college, if they wanted to go to college, in a year or two. And, indeed, they did! :-)
They learned through a combination of online courses (starting at about age 16), classes they chose to take with our local homeschool group over all their homeschooling years (some "academic", and some in the arts and sports and handicraft skills, such as woodworking), special classes at the zoo, the Boys and Girls Club, a Comcast studio, etc, participating in Venture Scouts, volunteering at a local theater, and through the internet, books, casual conversations with lots of people, watching TV/movies/videos, and playing video games.
If you can manage to accept the concept of whole-life-learning, and forget, for a moment, that high schools and colleges break all knowledge into totally separate subjects, it will probably be easier for you to trust your kids to learn what they need to, when they need to. My kids did not learn biology ONLY through a formal biology course, history ONLY through a formal history course, math ONLY through formal math courses, or vocabulary/grammar/writing skills ONLY through formal English courses. *Most* of what they learned for most college-required "subjects" is just "out there" in popular culture, or came from their interactions with my husband and me and all the other people they know.
The one thing that I would recommend planning ahead for two years of study before college is a foreign language - and that's only if your teen doesn't already know a second language at all, and won't have the opportunity to learn through travel and immersion in a foreign culture or through conversing regularly with a foreigner they know in your area. (I've known several unschooled teens who did learn a foreign language through travel and spending a year abroad.)
Actually, in some states, students still don't even need a foreign language at all to get into some colleges and get a degree. But studying a language for the equivalent of 2 years gives them more options later.
Linda
--- In [email protected], "danagribble@..." <danagribble@...> wrote:
>
> I've been homeschooling my 14yr old son since the middle of third grade. I would call us eclectic homeschoolers at best. My son is highly gifted, but not academic AT ALL. It's been challenging for all of these years to get him to produce much of anything. He has always been a much more hands on learner rather than a book learner, which I respect and and have tried to accommodate. In the back of my mind I always thought about unschooling him, but there was always that voice in my head saying to me, "He will just play video games all day." Now I know several of you might disagree with me, but since I'm not a fan at all of video games, I just don't see a lot of value in them.
>
> So here we are in what would be considered his freshman year of high school and this school year (or whatever you want to call it) has gone from bad to worse. He wants to go to college, but at a time in his life when the requirements are so much greater, I'm still not getting much from him. It's very frustrating to watch such a smart kid with what looks like no goals in mind at all. My husband and I have talked to our son and we have decided to unschool him and let our son just find his own way. He did tell us what classes and subjects he wants to drop this year and which ones he wants to continue with. We told him we support whatever decision he makes. Now we are letting our son self-direct/unschool, whatever you want to call it, but he's still not doing much even with the subjects he has decided he wants to keep doing. I almost feel like we need to deschool from our eclectic approach to homeschooling. It seems like all he wants to do is get on his lap top, text friends, play video games and sleep (which I get since he's a teen). Help! What to do with a smart kid who just seems to lack any motivation?
>
[email protected]
Yes, as I posted on another reply, we are deschooling as of today. When my son says he hates learning then I knew unschooling was just what he needed. I did explain to him that one is always learning in everything we do, and it doesn't just happen when he opens a text book. Learning is as natural as breathing.
Like most of us, having been a product of the public school system, it will take some time for me to deschool too. However in my heart I just know that unschooling is the answer for him.
Dana
Like most of us, having been a product of the public school system, it will take some time for me to deschool too. However in my heart I just know that unschooling is the answer for him.
Dana
--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>
> I assume, because you don't state your answer, that you are planning on backing off, on letting him heal his relationship with learning by slowly coming to terms with learning being a part of everything. To say one hates learning is to have absolutely no understanding that learning occurs always, all weathers, all wheres. He's been brainwashed, as so many people have, to believe that learning is a special condition that only occurs within the construct of school, be it at school or at home. How awful.Â
>
> I hope your answer is that you will refrain from testing him to comfort yourself. I hope your answer is that you will not scrutinise his activities for those things that look like an academic education. I hope that your answer is that you will examine your own relationship with learning to see why you still need assurance to believe that it is occurring.Â
>
> Schuyler
>
lindaguitar
--- In [email protected], "danagribble@..." <danagribble@...> wrote:
Most Americans have been brainwashed into believing that
school = learning, and learning = school. Actually, humans learn all the time, and most of our learning has nothing to do with school, schoolwork, or "academic" subjects.
Did he ever learn to ride a bike? To swim? To play a new video game? Has he ever learned something about the Earth, the environment, politics, other countries, etc, just from listening to the news? Has he ever learned interesting trivia about the world, history, or science just from passing references made in TV shows and movies?
He probably loves to learn - just not to be told *what* to learn, or how or when to learn it.
Does he do any regular activities with a group? Scouting or 4H or volunteering or participating in some kind of sports team, musical group, or special interest club? All of those provide really cool learning (and socializing) activities that he wouldn't get at home.
Linda
>I think it would be helpful if you and your son learn to distinguish between "learning" and "schoolwork".
> I did want to add that I just asked my son how he feels about
> learning. He said, "Do you want to know how I really feel about it,
> or what I think you want to hear?" Of course I told him I wanted to
> know how HE felt. He told me he hated it. Well I guess I got my
> answer on what to do next.
>
> Dana
Most Americans have been brainwashed into believing that
school = learning, and learning = school. Actually, humans learn all the time, and most of our learning has nothing to do with school, schoolwork, or "academic" subjects.
Did he ever learn to ride a bike? To swim? To play a new video game? Has he ever learned something about the Earth, the environment, politics, other countries, etc, just from listening to the news? Has he ever learned interesting trivia about the world, history, or science just from passing references made in TV shows and movies?
He probably loves to learn - just not to be told *what* to learn, or how or when to learn it.
Does he do any regular activities with a group? Scouting or 4H or volunteering or participating in some kind of sports team, musical group, or special interest club? All of those provide really cool learning (and socializing) activities that he wouldn't get at home.
Linda
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 25, 2012, at 8:12 PM, lindaguitar wrote:
I think -- it's worth checking into -- that 2 semesters of foreign language at a community college is the same as 2 years in high school. And there are undoubtedly other options that colleges will accept nowadays like Pimsleur or Rosetta Stone.
(I just checked the top 3 that popped up when searching foreign language requirements. Yale has none. Harvard wants knowledge of a foreign language before junior year (in college). UCLA wants it before the end of the sophomore year (in college.) So it looks like a trend. It's possible not all high schools offer a foreign language which may be why the greater flexibility.)
Then let him use that information to make choices with. When he's looking at colleges he can weigh those with foreign language requirements against those without. Then he can decide if one has enough appeal for the effort to be worth it and whether he wants to take it before entering or while he's there.
Unlike schooled kids, unschooled kids don't need just-in-case learning because they know learning is always available when it's wanted.
The more information he has to make his own decisions with the better.
Joyce
> The one thing that I would recommend planning aheadI would let him know that some colleges want 2 years of foreign language. But that it's becoming less common.
> for two years of study before college is a foreign language
I think -- it's worth checking into -- that 2 semesters of foreign language at a community college is the same as 2 years in high school. And there are undoubtedly other options that colleges will accept nowadays like Pimsleur or Rosetta Stone.
(I just checked the top 3 that popped up when searching foreign language requirements. Yale has none. Harvard wants knowledge of a foreign language before junior year (in college). UCLA wants it before the end of the sophomore year (in college.) So it looks like a trend. It's possible not all high schools offer a foreign language which may be why the greater flexibility.)
Then let him use that information to make choices with. When he's looking at colleges he can weigh those with foreign language requirements against those without. Then he can decide if one has enough appeal for the effort to be worth it and whether he wants to take it before entering or while he's there.
Unlike schooled kids, unschooled kids don't need just-in-case learning because they know learning is always available when it's wanted.
The more information he has to make his own decisions with the better.
Joyce
alma
--- In [email protected], "sushieq@..." <susanlervold@...> wrote:
=-=-=-=-=-
I was going to post with some useful resources about changing thinking about gaming for the OP who said she doesn't see the value (or similar) of video games, but this jumped out at me too.
For your son, gaming is probably pretty had work! I'm sure he is not resting on his laurels playing the same level of something over and over. He is probably working constantly at the limits of his ability, pushing himself hard to level up, win quests, find treasure, beat the game in whatever form it takes. It can be hard, exhilarating work!!!
Look out for Marc Prensky's "Don't Bother Me Mom - I'm Learning" and Jane McGonigal's "Reality is Broken". Jane McGonigal has also done TED talks and other interviews can be found on youtube. Possibly Marc Prensky is worth googling too.
Alison
DS1(10) and DS2(7)
>currently, his time is filled with sleeping and video games (and talking to friends via video games). Myself having been raised in a family that esteemed an old-fashioned Puritan-style work ethic above all ....
=-=-=-=-=-
I was going to post with some useful resources about changing thinking about gaming for the OP who said she doesn't see the value (or similar) of video games, but this jumped out at me too.
For your son, gaming is probably pretty had work! I'm sure he is not resting on his laurels playing the same level of something over and over. He is probably working constantly at the limits of his ability, pushing himself hard to level up, win quests, find treasure, beat the game in whatever form it takes. It can be hard, exhilarating work!!!
Look out for Marc Prensky's "Don't Bother Me Mom - I'm Learning" and Jane McGonigal's "Reality is Broken". Jane McGonigal has also done TED talks and other interviews can be found on youtube. Possibly Marc Prensky is worth googling too.
Alison
DS1(10) and DS2(7)
lindaguitar
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
GA is pushing for more and more standardization, and imposing more and more requirements on applicants, for the public colleges. (I don't know what the larger private colleges require. I think I'll look up what Emory University, Oglethorpe, Agnes Scott, and SCAD require for applicants.)
I keep hearing news reports of college enrollment in GA having gone down. Hey - let's see if we can sink from 49th to 50th in education, and be the new Mississippi!
I personally think that the more they try to force every student to have had an identical education, and the more they impose their very narrow version of "academic rigor" on every student, the worse the state of education in this state will become.
I hear about all the famous universities looking for creativity, innovation, independent learning, motivation, and something unique in their applicants. And then you've got GA looking for mass-produced cogs.
But, anyway, it was because I live in GA, and my kids did not want to go out of state (yet) that I mentioned the two-years-of-foreign-language requirement.
Even here in GA, there is no test to insure that a homeschooled applicant has really studied a foreign language. I *know* that the public high school kids mostly don't really *learn* the foreign language that they take in school. The majority of them just take the class, pass the tests, and then forget it. So a homeschooler could list a language on his/her transcript, and no one will ever know if s/he really studied it at all. Or a homeschooler with more integrity could study a foreign language over the summer, before starting college, and, if motivated, could learn more in one summer than an unmotivated student would learn in two years!
Linda
>I keep forgetting how different GA is from the other states, in that regard. Although learning a second language is never a bad idea, I think the colleges in other states, that will allow students to learn another language in college, rather than requiring before college, have it right. If someone who is homeschooled or unschooled decides not to go to college, and has no particular interest or need to learn a second language, then it doesn't matter if s/he never learns one.
> ... I would let him know that some colleges want 2 years of foreign
> language. But that it's becoming less common.
>
> ... (I just checked the top 3 that popped up when searching foreign
> language requirements. Yale has none. Harvard wants knowledge of a
> foreign language before junior year (in college). UCLA wants it
> before the end of the sophomore year (in college.) ...
GA is pushing for more and more standardization, and imposing more and more requirements on applicants, for the public colleges. (I don't know what the larger private colleges require. I think I'll look up what Emory University, Oglethorpe, Agnes Scott, and SCAD require for applicants.)
I keep hearing news reports of college enrollment in GA having gone down. Hey - let's see if we can sink from 49th to 50th in education, and be the new Mississippi!
I personally think that the more they try to force every student to have had an identical education, and the more they impose their very narrow version of "academic rigor" on every student, the worse the state of education in this state will become.
I hear about all the famous universities looking for creativity, innovation, independent learning, motivation, and something unique in their applicants. And then you've got GA looking for mass-produced cogs.
But, anyway, it was because I live in GA, and my kids did not want to go out of state (yet) that I mentioned the two-years-of-foreign-language requirement.
Even here in GA, there is no test to insure that a homeschooled applicant has really studied a foreign language. I *know* that the public high school kids mostly don't really *learn* the foreign language that they take in school. The majority of them just take the class, pass the tests, and then forget it. So a homeschooler could list a language on his/her transcript, and no one will ever know if s/he really studied it at all. Or a homeschooler with more integrity could study a foreign language over the summer, before starting college, and, if motivated, could learn more in one summer than an unmotivated student would learn in two years!
Linda
Meredith
"alma" <almadoing@...> wrote:
And sometimes it's tedious, frustrating work, too - that's one of the things which has amazed me, watching my kids play video games. For all the stereotypes of gaming as "just having fun" there are often parts of games which need to be replayed over and over just to get through, or tedious tasks which need to be accomplished to "level up". And kids will do that - willingly subject themselves to hard, tedious work when they value a particular goal.
But you don't get to see that if you wince away from the very idea of a kid spending hours at a time playing a video game - because it takes Hours at a time, sometimes hours and hours for days and days. Eventually, that same kind of perseverance will be applied to something outside video games. My 11yo works just as hard drawing and creating animations as she does gaming - but she did that first gaming. My 19yo works just as hard blacksmithing or doing agricultural work or construction work - but he did it first with a video game.
---Meredith
>> For your son, gaming is probably pretty had work! I'm sure he is not resting on his laurels playing the same level of something over and over. He is probably working constantly at the limits of his ability, pushing himself hard to level up, win quests, find treasure, beat the game in whatever form it takes. It can be hard, exhilarating work!!!****************
And sometimes it's tedious, frustrating work, too - that's one of the things which has amazed me, watching my kids play video games. For all the stereotypes of gaming as "just having fun" there are often parts of games which need to be replayed over and over just to get through, or tedious tasks which need to be accomplished to "level up". And kids will do that - willingly subject themselves to hard, tedious work when they value a particular goal.
But you don't get to see that if you wince away from the very idea of a kid spending hours at a time playing a video game - because it takes Hours at a time, sometimes hours and hours for days and days. Eventually, that same kind of perseverance will be applied to something outside video games. My 11yo works just as hard drawing and creating animations as she does gaming - but she did that first gaming. My 19yo works just as hard blacksmithing or doing agricultural work or construction work - but he did it first with a video game.
---Meredith
Schuyler
I have been working at playing video games lately. Playing Borderlands 2, and I die a lot. I die less now than I did when I started playing, but it is still with some regularity that I am spawned back at a save point. Doing a level in Borderlands 2 takes me ages, ages more than it takes Simon or Linnaea. Scanning a scene, reading what is important and what isn't, I'm really slow at that, as well.
When Simon was little he would ask me to do the hard stages, to work through the bits that were difficult or frustrating. Now he works at it until he knows that it is going to frustrate him to the nth degree and he steps away and does something else. And he is good at it. He is very comfortable with a controller.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Meredith <plaidpanties666@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, 27 October 2012, 3:39
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: New to this and need help with my high schooler
"alma" <almadoing@...> wrote:
And sometimes it's tedious, frustrating work, too - that's one of the things which has amazed me, watching my kids play video games. For all the stereotypes of gaming as "just having fun" there are often parts of games which need to be replayed over and over just to get through, or tedious tasks which need to be accomplished to "level up". And kids will do that - willingly subject themselves to hard, tedious work when they value a particular goal.
But you don't get to see that if you wince away from the very idea of a kid spending hours at a time playing a video game - because it takes Hours at a time, sometimes hours and hours for days and days. Eventually, that same kind of perseverance will be applied to something outside video games. My 11yo works just as hard drawing and creating animations as she does gaming - but she did that first gaming. My 19yo works just as hard blacksmithing or doing agricultural work or construction work - but he did it first with a video game.
---Meredith
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When Simon was little he would ask me to do the hard stages, to work through the bits that were difficult or frustrating. Now he works at it until he knows that it is going to frustrate him to the nth degree and he steps away and does something else. And he is good at it. He is very comfortable with a controller.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Meredith <plaidpanties666@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, 27 October 2012, 3:39
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: New to this and need help with my high schooler
"alma" <almadoing@...> wrote:
>> For your son, gaming is probably pretty had work! I'm sure he is not resting on his laurels playing the same level of something over and over. He is probably working constantly at the limits of his ability, pushing himself hard to level up, win quests, find treasure, beat the game in whatever form it takes. It can be hard, exhilarating work!!!****************
And sometimes it's tedious, frustrating work, too - that's one of the things which has amazed me, watching my kids play video games. For all the stereotypes of gaming as "just having fun" there are often parts of games which need to be replayed over and over just to get through, or tedious tasks which need to be accomplished to "level up". And kids will do that - willingly subject themselves to hard, tedious work when they value a particular goal.
But you don't get to see that if you wince away from the very idea of a kid spending hours at a time playing a video game - because it takes Hours at a time, sometimes hours and hours for days and days. Eventually, that same kind of perseverance will be applied to something outside video games. My 11yo works just as hard drawing and creating animations as she does gaming - but she did that first gaming. My 19yo works just as hard blacksmithing or doing agricultural work or construction work - but he did it first with a video game.
---Meredith
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
He started studying French this year because he wanted too. He says he wants to continue, but now that we are deschooling it will be interesting to see if he keeps going. I think he will eventually, but I'm guessing not for a few weeks.
Dana
Dana
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
> I would let him know that some colleges want 2 years of foreign language. But that it's becoming less common.
lindaguitar
--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
Any parent here who plays video games knows that we adults share this quality with kids - we will try a level over and over and over again, to get through it, in order to get to the next level.
Being able to repeatedly fail and try again, knowing that you WILL eventually figure it out, without anyone standing over our shoulders and imposing deadlines and penalties for not getting it done "on time", is one of the most wonderful learning experiences that a person of any age can have!
There's a commercial that I hear on the radio sometimes, encouraging perseverance as a valuable character trait, that claims that Thomas Edison tried making a light bulb thousands of times before he finally got one to work! I do believe that kids who are allowed to spend hours and hours at a video game are more likely to develop this trait of perseverance than kids who are taught (generally in schools) that if you fail the first time, that's it - you're done, no more chances to learn that subject, time to move on to the next thing.
There are also specific skills that people learn from various kinds of games.
I spent years playing Tetris (and similar geometric/spatial games) over and over again. I was good at (and gravitated towards) real/applied geometry activities to start with, but am even better at getting things to fit into a space in the most efficient way after playing Tetris and other such games so much. My daughter jokes about that sometimes. :-)
I have seen that kids who spend a lot of time playing driving/car-racing video games are more confident when they start learning to drive, and seem to be able to steer better from the start.
Those are just a couple of examples. I'm sure this applies to just about every type of video game.
Linda
>Interestingly, this is something that applies to gamers of all ages.
> .... And sometimes it's tedious, frustrating work, too ... For all
> the stereotypes of gaming as "just having fun" there are often
> parts of games which need to be replayed over and over just to get
> through, or tedious tasks which need to be accomplished to "level
> up". And kids will do that - willingly subject themselves to hard,
> tedious work when they value a particular goal.
Any parent here who plays video games knows that we adults share this quality with kids - we will try a level over and over and over again, to get through it, in order to get to the next level.
Being able to repeatedly fail and try again, knowing that you WILL eventually figure it out, without anyone standing over our shoulders and imposing deadlines and penalties for not getting it done "on time", is one of the most wonderful learning experiences that a person of any age can have!
There's a commercial that I hear on the radio sometimes, encouraging perseverance as a valuable character trait, that claims that Thomas Edison tried making a light bulb thousands of times before he finally got one to work! I do believe that kids who are allowed to spend hours and hours at a video game are more likely to develop this trait of perseverance than kids who are taught (generally in schools) that if you fail the first time, that's it - you're done, no more chances to learn that subject, time to move on to the next thing.
There are also specific skills that people learn from various kinds of games.
I spent years playing Tetris (and similar geometric/spatial games) over and over again. I was good at (and gravitated towards) real/applied geometry activities to start with, but am even better at getting things to fit into a space in the most efficient way after playing Tetris and other such games so much. My daughter jokes about that sometimes. :-)
I have seen that kids who spend a lot of time playing driving/car-racing video games are more confident when they start learning to drive, and seem to be able to steer better from the start.
Those are just a couple of examples. I'm sure this applies to just about every type of video game.
Linda