Having trouble
sara
I'm trying to get a handle on this philosophy but I'm really having trouble, I'm ok with the schooling a aspect of it, I've seen that regular schooling destroys my kids, but the entirety of it is overwhelming. My kids fight all.the.time. About everything, they can't play games together because they argue about winning, and my oldest will cheat in order to win, and that's rubbing off on the other two. Every single thing I ask my oldest to do he gets mad at me, even as simple as showering, do I just not make him shower? He sweats like crazy and stinks if he doesn't shower. They never pick up after themselves without me forcing or badgering, my youngest can destroy a room in half a minute cuz he gets out one thing after another, they leave food all over, tear up trash and leave it on the floor, I feel like all I have time to do is pick up after them, I don't have time to just be with them because I'm either cleaning our exhausted
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 26, 2012, at 11:12 PM, sara wrote:
Part might be rivalry. Have you read "Siblings Without Rivalry"? That will help you see where you may be unintentionally creating some of the conflict with how you're interacting with them. And help you negotiate any rivalry between them.
http://amzn.to/JWGyuM
Sandra Dodd has a good collection of ideas on siblings:
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting
If a chore wasn't important to you, would you do it without being forced and badgered? The cleaning up is important to you, but to them it's as important as a scrubbed garage floor is to you. Would you scrub the garage floor each day if your husband just asked? Or would you need forced.
(They will care more as they get older *because* they're older, not because they've been trained to care.)
From their point of view you're constantly conscripting them to work to keep the house to your standards. And that's why it doesn't work. That's why they react as they do.
From their point of view you're basically saying "I need you to see the world my way, the *right* way, in order for you to do what I say without complaint." Is that likely to work well on any human?
*Instead* take full ownership of keeping the house to your standards. And shift your thinking to how you'd interact with busy friends if you needed help.
Do it sweetly. Right now you're probably turning into someone your kids want to get far away from. It's not a good way to keep them close! Right now you're doing most of the clean up anyway. And you can do it angrily and resentfully in ways that drive them away or you can be sweet. Do it because you love having them in your life. And messes are a sign they're healthy and active and alive.
Draw them in to help. Make cleaning up part of the natural flow. Rather than asking for the vague "clean up" ask them to do something very specific for you to help you out like "Can you put this on the shelf?" Accept no as an answer. Be aware that they are busy people.
At first it won't seem to work. At first, to them, it might feel like a new way to get them to clean up. But persist.
People in general like to know their help is valuable to someone else. And if you can mentally get to the point where you're creating an environment for them, where you're inviting them into your world to do things with you, thanking them sincerely as you would an insanely busy friend who took time out of her life to help you out, then you'll become someone they want to help -- as they're developmentally able.
The radical part of unschooling isn't just a nicer way of making them do stuff. It's a mental shift on the part of the mom to treat them as she would fellow human beings who are new to the world, who have busy lives, who see the world in very different ways. By shifting your attitude you will not only create a more peaceful house, but you'll be showing them more peaceful ways of interacting with people, peaceful ways of resolving situations where needs clash, that will serve them throughout their lives. Yes, all that from changing your attitude about chores :-)
I have several pages gathered about chores. It's one of my favorite topics :-)
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
Down the right hand side.
Sandra Dodd also has several pages:
http://sandradodd.com/chores/
It sounds like you aren't present enough to be there before the messes happen, to orchestrate a bit more.
Or maybe can rethink how things are stored or where they're played with so the messes don't get out of control.
Or probably many smaller steps that can work toward keeping the mess from getting out of control. Rethink how *you* do things because trying to change them is *way* more work, very stressful -- and doesn't work anyway ;-)
If food is getting out of control, have them eat in the kitchen. Don't make it a rule. Rules are ways to remotely control people. Make it a way to help you.
There should be some thoughts on organizing and such on some of the pages linked on Sandra's chores page.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> My kids fight all.the.time. About everything, they can't play games together because they argue about winning,Part of this might be competitive natures. For people who aren't competitive sometimes it's hard to understand.
Part might be rivalry. Have you read "Siblings Without Rivalry"? That will help you see where you may be unintentionally creating some of the conflict with how you're interacting with them. And help you negotiate any rivalry between them.
http://amzn.to/JWGyuM
Sandra Dodd has a good collection of ideas on siblings:
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting
> Every single thing I ask my oldest to do he gets mad at me, even asFor now I'd let it go. At this point it's not only about the showers but about control over what he gets to do to his body. Tell him the only time you'll ask him to take a shower is when you'll be meeting people. At this point, if he does stink, his brothers telling him so will carry more weight than your voice.
> simple as showering, do I just not make him shower? He sweats
> like crazy and stinks if he doesn't shower.
> They never pick up after themselves without me forcing or badgering,If you have something you wish to communicate with your kids -- with anyone really -- the first step is to see from their point of view. Then you'll be able to see that their reactions make perfect sense.
If a chore wasn't important to you, would you do it without being forced and badgered? The cleaning up is important to you, but to them it's as important as a scrubbed garage floor is to you. Would you scrub the garage floor each day if your husband just asked? Or would you need forced.
(They will care more as they get older *because* they're older, not because they've been trained to care.)
From their point of view you're constantly conscripting them to work to keep the house to your standards. And that's why it doesn't work. That's why they react as they do.
From their point of view you're basically saying "I need you to see the world my way, the *right* way, in order for you to do what I say without complaint." Is that likely to work well on any human?
*Instead* take full ownership of keeping the house to your standards. And shift your thinking to how you'd interact with busy friends if you needed help.
Do it sweetly. Right now you're probably turning into someone your kids want to get far away from. It's not a good way to keep them close! Right now you're doing most of the clean up anyway. And you can do it angrily and resentfully in ways that drive them away or you can be sweet. Do it because you love having them in your life. And messes are a sign they're healthy and active and alive.
Draw them in to help. Make cleaning up part of the natural flow. Rather than asking for the vague "clean up" ask them to do something very specific for you to help you out like "Can you put this on the shelf?" Accept no as an answer. Be aware that they are busy people.
At first it won't seem to work. At first, to them, it might feel like a new way to get them to clean up. But persist.
People in general like to know their help is valuable to someone else. And if you can mentally get to the point where you're creating an environment for them, where you're inviting them into your world to do things with you, thanking them sincerely as you would an insanely busy friend who took time out of her life to help you out, then you'll become someone they want to help -- as they're developmentally able.
The radical part of unschooling isn't just a nicer way of making them do stuff. It's a mental shift on the part of the mom to treat them as she would fellow human beings who are new to the world, who have busy lives, who see the world in very different ways. By shifting your attitude you will not only create a more peaceful house, but you'll be showing them more peaceful ways of interacting with people, peaceful ways of resolving situations where needs clash, that will serve them throughout their lives. Yes, all that from changing your attitude about chores :-)
I have several pages gathered about chores. It's one of my favorite topics :-)
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
Down the right hand side.
Sandra Dodd also has several pages:
http://sandradodd.com/chores/
> my youngest can destroy a room in half a minute cuz he gets out one thing after another, they leave food all over, tear up trash and leave it on the floor,It sounds like they're very energetic!
It sounds like you aren't present enough to be there before the messes happen, to orchestrate a bit more.
Or maybe can rethink how things are stored or where they're played with so the messes don't get out of control.
Or probably many smaller steps that can work toward keeping the mess from getting out of control. Rethink how *you* do things because trying to change them is *way* more work, very stressful -- and doesn't work anyway ;-)
If food is getting out of control, have them eat in the kitchen. Don't make it a rule. Rules are ways to remotely control people. Make it a way to help you.
There should be some thoughts on organizing and such on some of the pages linked on Sandra's chores page.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 26, 2012, at 11:12 PM, sara wrote:
THE DAILY GROOVE ~ by Scott Noelle
www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove
He sends out a *short* *practical* bit of wisdom about shifting your vision of your kids that you can work on a little bit each day. :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> but the entirety of it is overwhelmingI meant to also suggest
THE DAILY GROOVE ~ by Scott Noelle
www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove
He sends out a *short* *practical* bit of wisdom about shifting your vision of your kids that you can work on a little bit each day. :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sara
Thanks for the reply I really appreciate the help, in reality I was really just having a bad day and needed a boost. I do have TONS of questions though, about specific situations that I hope I can get help with. I will check the library for the book you suggested.
So the shower situation, we babysit our neighbors after school Mon-Wed, and have a coop on Fri so we are around people almost every day....should I just make him take one Thursday before the coop and not bother him about it when the neighbors are oveer?
I understand what your saying about chores, its something I need to work on because I definitely do not do them joyfully, I pretty much hate cleaning, but I hate living in a mess too... That's also one of the things that really bothers my husband he is kind of a near freak and he gets annoyed if I don't keep up on housework, which is hard for me to do. I will check out the links!
Yes oftentimes my youngest is by himself playing while I am cleaning and that is when the playroom gets destroyed, right now he is really into puzzles but he is only 3 and thinks if he can do a 25 piece puzzle that he should be able to do a 100 piece puzzle too, so he gets out one, notices its too hard and goes to get another and another etc etc.
One more question I have is about the grocery store, I normally have to take them with me because my husband works a lot, and when we go they are constantly begging for everything they see, they really don't even think about what it is they are asking for, I know this because they were once begging me for a watermelon when we had just picked 7 from our garden the day before! I would like to get them some of the things they want from the store but at the same time we are on a strict budget and I can't afford to get them everything they ask for, and get normal food too...
Thanks for the help again it is much appreciated!
So the shower situation, we babysit our neighbors after school Mon-Wed, and have a coop on Fri so we are around people almost every day....should I just make him take one Thursday before the coop and not bother him about it when the neighbors are oveer?
I understand what your saying about chores, its something I need to work on because I definitely do not do them joyfully, I pretty much hate cleaning, but I hate living in a mess too... That's also one of the things that really bothers my husband he is kind of a near freak and he gets annoyed if I don't keep up on housework, which is hard for me to do. I will check out the links!
Yes oftentimes my youngest is by himself playing while I am cleaning and that is when the playroom gets destroyed, right now he is really into puzzles but he is only 3 and thinks if he can do a 25 piece puzzle that he should be able to do a 100 piece puzzle too, so he gets out one, notices its too hard and goes to get another and another etc etc.
One more question I have is about the grocery store, I normally have to take them with me because my husband works a lot, and when we go they are constantly begging for everything they see, they really don't even think about what it is they are asking for, I know this because they were once begging me for a watermelon when we had just picked 7 from our garden the day before! I would like to get them some of the things they want from the store but at the same time we are on a strict budget and I can't afford to get them everything they ask for, and get normal food too...
Thanks for the help again it is much appreciated!
Lyla Wolfenstein
>is there any particular reason you have 100 piece puzzles accessible to a 3
>
> Yes oftentimes my youngest is by himself playing while I am cleaning and
> that is when the playroom gets destroyed, right now he is really into
> puzzles but he is only 3 and thinks if he can do a 25 piece puzzle that he
> should be able to do a 100 piece puzzle too, so he gets out one, notices
> its too hard and goes to get another and another etc etc. >>>
>
year old? you can set the playroom (and house) up for success and easier
maintenance - that can make a big difference!
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marieke Hensel
Hi Sara,
I'm recently home with my boys 7yo, 8yo and 10yo, and I have the same
challenges as you do. Fighting happens way more now than before, and the
continuous request for wanting to get stuff - more than before is also what
I noticed. They are also challenging me a lot more on things that they
never challenged me on before. I see it as a temporary situation, and its
hard as my husband is not always happy with how our lives are so changing.
And sometimes threatens them that they should go back to school to make
life easier for him.
I hope in time and with good spirit it will all pass.
I do notice bedtimes are stretched as we let them make their own choices
because of that, which makes the kids more grumpy during the day and that
does not help.
As far as the mess goes, I would suggest taking a few things out of the
play room that you hate cleaning up the most. Like some puzzles perhaps?
An other option is if youd clean all the puzzle pieces in the same box and
put the other boxes away. It might not be the ideal storage solution for
you, but maybe the way he plays with them is not fixing them but spreading
them out, decorating the floor (one of my kids was like that).
Hope that helps!
:-)
Marieke
--
Marieke Hensel
http://twitter.com/hensel
1-877-747-FAME (3263)
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*
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I'm recently home with my boys 7yo, 8yo and 10yo, and I have the same
challenges as you do. Fighting happens way more now than before, and the
continuous request for wanting to get stuff - more than before is also what
I noticed. They are also challenging me a lot more on things that they
never challenged me on before. I see it as a temporary situation, and its
hard as my husband is not always happy with how our lives are so changing.
And sometimes threatens them that they should go back to school to make
life easier for him.
I hope in time and with good spirit it will all pass.
I do notice bedtimes are stretched as we let them make their own choices
because of that, which makes the kids more grumpy during the day and that
does not help.
As far as the mess goes, I would suggest taking a few things out of the
play room that you hate cleaning up the most. Like some puzzles perhaps?
An other option is if youd clean all the puzzle pieces in the same box and
put the other boxes away. It might not be the ideal storage solution for
you, but maybe the way he plays with them is not fixing them but spreading
them out, decorating the floor (one of my kids was like that).
Hope that helps!
:-)
Marieke
--
Marieke Hensel
http://twitter.com/hensel
1-877-747-FAME (3263)
*
*
*Orange **you ready to improve your sales?* Receive Branding Personality's
newsletter full of juicy social media news, events, and special offers.
http://eepurl.com/o19nP
On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 8:56 AM, sara <sarajoturtle@...> wrote:
> Thanks for the reply I really appreciate the help, in reality I was really
> just having a bad day and needed a boost. I do have TONS of questions
> though, about specific situations that I hope I can get help with. I will
> check the library for the book you suggested.
>
> So the shower situation, we babysit our neighbors after school Mon-Wed,
> and have a coop on Fri so we are around people almost every day....should I
> just make him take one Thursday before the coop and not bother him about it
> when the neighbors are oveer?
>
> I understand what your saying about chores, its something I need to work
> on because I definitely do not do them joyfully, I pretty much hate
> cleaning, but I hate living in a mess too... That's also one of the things
> that really bothers my husband he is kind of a near freak and he gets
> annoyed if I don't keep up on housework, which is hard for me to do. I
> will check out the links!
>
> Yes oftentimes my youngest is by himself playing while I am cleaning and
> that is when the playroom gets destroyed, right now he is really into
> puzzles but he is only 3 and thinks if he can do a 25 piece puzzle that he
> should be able to do a 100 piece puzzle too, so he gets out one, notices
> its too hard and goes to get another and another etc etc.
>
> One more question I have is about the grocery store, I normally have to
> take them with me because my husband works a lot, and when we go they are
> constantly begging for everything they see, they really don't even think
> about what it is they are asking for, I know this because they were once
> begging me for a watermelon when we had just picked 7 from our garden the
> day before! I would like to get them some of the things they want from the
> store but at the same time we are on a strict budget and I can't afford to
> get them everything they ask for, and get normal food too...
>
> Thanks for the help again it is much appreciated!
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Renée Cooper
//the continuous request for wanting to get stuff - more than before//
Our solution to the continuous requests for stuff was to supply them an allowance. They do not need to earn this money, it is given to them freely each week. And that money is theirs to spend however they wish, even on junky items we'd not have chosen to spend it on ourselves. When it's gone, it's gone though. They'll have to wait for next week for more. This works amazingly well for our family. The kids really love that they no longer have to ask all the time for stuff -- they are in control of their own cash. They learn pretty quickly about deciding what to spend it on. We still buy them interesting stuff or bigger ticket items. I wouldn't make my child save up for a new bike if they had outgrown the old one, for example. This is more about not having to deal with the constant stream of requests for stuff, stuff, more stuff! -Renee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Our solution to the continuous requests for stuff was to supply them an allowance. They do not need to earn this money, it is given to them freely each week. And that money is theirs to spend however they wish, even on junky items we'd not have chosen to spend it on ourselves. When it's gone, it's gone though. They'll have to wait for next week for more. This works amazingly well for our family. The kids really love that they no longer have to ask all the time for stuff -- they are in control of their own cash. They learn pretty quickly about deciding what to spend it on. We still buy them interesting stuff or bigger ticket items. I wouldn't make my child save up for a new bike if they had outgrown the old one, for example. This is more about not having to deal with the constant stream of requests for stuff, stuff, more stuff! -Renee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marieke Hensel
Hi Renee,
Thanks, my kids are getting allowance.
They get as many dollars as they are old per week. It doesn't seem enough.
If I may ask how much allowance is reasonable?
:-)
Marieke
--
Marieke Hensel
http://twitter.com/hensel
1-877-747-FAME (3263)
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Thanks, my kids are getting allowance.
They get as many dollars as they are old per week. It doesn't seem enough.
If I may ask how much allowance is reasonable?
:-)
Marieke
--
Marieke Hensel
http://twitter.com/hensel
1-877-747-FAME (3263)
*
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*Orange **you ready to improve your sales?* Receive Branding Personality's
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On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Renée Cooper <rmilller@...> wrote:
> //the continuous request for wanting to get stuff - more than before//
> Our solution to the continuous requests for stuff was to supply them an
> allowance. They do not need to earn this money, it is given to them freely
> each week. And that money is theirs to spend however they wish, even on
> junky items we'd not have chosen to spend it on ourselves. When it's gone,
> it's gone though. They'll have to wait for next week for more. This
> works amazingly well for our family. The kids really love that they no
> longer have to ask all the time for stuff -- they are in control of their
> own cash. They learn pretty quickly about deciding what to spend it on.
> We still buy them interesting stuff or bigger ticket items. I wouldn't
> make my child save up for a new bike if they had outgrown the old one, for
> example. This is more about not having to deal with the constant stream of
> requests for stuff, stuff, more stuff! -Renee
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"sara" <sarajoturtle@...> wrote:
If he's stinky, offer some deodorants as an alternative to showering - don't make it something to fight over. Don't make it a kind of punishment for having friends over. And if he's not happy with having all those people over, look for ways for him to have some privacy and personal space! maybe move the coop somewhere else if it's not something all your kids love.
It seems like the problem is that you can see solutions to things and then try to impose those solutions rather than giving your kids the chance to find their own. That's something I do - I come up with Great solutions! but my kids don't want to be told, they want to figure things out. And as frustrating as it is when they figure out the solution I had originally (grumble) they're more likely to feel good about it because it's something they've considered and weighed, maybe tried some other options, and worked out for themselves. That's an important part of how people learn to make decisions, by doing the work of making them - right and wrong - and then assessing the results and modifying their choices at need.
---Meredith
>> should I just make him take one Thursday before the coop and not bother him about it when the neighbors are oveer?*******************
If he's stinky, offer some deodorants as an alternative to showering - don't make it something to fight over. Don't make it a kind of punishment for having friends over. And if he's not happy with having all those people over, look for ways for him to have some privacy and personal space! maybe move the coop somewhere else if it's not something all your kids love.
It seems like the problem is that you can see solutions to things and then try to impose those solutions rather than giving your kids the chance to find their own. That's something I do - I come up with Great solutions! but my kids don't want to be told, they want to figure things out. And as frustrating as it is when they figure out the solution I had originally (grumble) they're more likely to feel good about it because it's something they've considered and weighed, maybe tried some other options, and worked out for themselves. That's an important part of how people learn to make decisions, by doing the work of making them - right and wrong - and then assessing the results and modifying their choices at need.
---Meredith
Kelly Lovejoy
Yes!
But just make sure it's enough to actually BUY something with.
In today's market, .50 won't buy much of anything. Neither will $5, depending on the age of the child.
Please consider giving them enough money to buy what's important to them.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
-----Original Message-----
From: Renée Cooper <rmilller@...>
//the continuous request for wanting to get stuff - more than before//
Our solution to the continuous requests for stuff was to supply them an
allowance. They do not need to earn this money, it is given to them freely each
week. And that money is theirs to spend however they wish, even on junky items
we'd not have chosen to spend it on ourselves. When it's gone, it's gone
though. They'll have to wait for next week for more. This works amazingly
well for our family. The kids really love that they no longer have to ask all
the time for stuff -- they are in control of their own cash. They learn pretty
quickly about deciding what to spend it on. We still buy them interesting
stuff or bigger ticket items. I wouldn't make my child save up for a new bike
if they had outgrown the old one, for example. This is more about not having to
deal with the constant stream of requests for stuff, stuff, more stuff! -Renee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But just make sure it's enough to actually BUY something with.
In today's market, .50 won't buy much of anything. Neither will $5, depending on the age of the child.
Please consider giving them enough money to buy what's important to them.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
-----Original Message-----
From: Renée Cooper <rmilller@...>
//the continuous request for wanting to get stuff - more than before//
Our solution to the continuous requests for stuff was to supply them an
allowance. They do not need to earn this money, it is given to them freely each
week. And that money is theirs to spend however they wish, even on junky items
we'd not have chosen to spend it on ourselves. When it's gone, it's gone
though. They'll have to wait for next week for more. This works amazingly
well for our family. The kids really love that they no longer have to ask all
the time for stuff -- they are in control of their own cash. They learn pretty
quickly about deciding what to spend it on. We still buy them interesting
stuff or bigger ticket items. I wouldn't make my child save up for a new bike
if they had outgrown the old one, for example. This is more about not having to
deal with the constant stream of requests for stuff, stuff, more stuff! -Renee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marieke Hensel
So whats your suggestion?
We give my 7yo $7 a week, my 8yo $8 a week, and my 10yo $10 a week.
Should they be getting $20 a week?
I think its already quite a stretch for our family, we try to be so frugal
in many fronts. But $60 a week would be out of balance I think. I do love
to hear your feedback.
:-)
Marieke
--
Marieke Hensel
http://twitter.com/hensel
1-877-747-FAME (3263)
*
*
*Orange **you ready to improve your sales?* Receive Branding Personality's
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We give my 7yo $7 a week, my 8yo $8 a week, and my 10yo $10 a week.
Should they be getting $20 a week?
I think its already quite a stretch for our family, we try to be so frugal
in many fronts. But $60 a week would be out of balance I think. I do love
to hear your feedback.
:-)
Marieke
--
Marieke Hensel
http://twitter.com/hensel
1-877-747-FAME (3263)
*
*
*Orange **you ready to improve your sales?* Receive Branding Personality's
newsletter full of juicy social media news, events, and special offers.
http://eepurl.com/o19nP
On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Kelly Lovejoy <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
> Yes!
>
>
> But just make sure it's enough to actually BUY something with.
>
>
>
> In today's market, .50 won't buy much of anything. Neither will $5,
> depending on the age of the child.
>
>
>
>
> Please consider giving them enough money to buy what's important to them.
>
>
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> "There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the
> world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne
> Williamson
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Renée Cooper <rmilller@...>
>
> //the continuous request for wanting to get stuff - more than before//
> Our solution to the continuous requests for stuff was to supply them an
> allowance. They do not need to earn this money, it is given to them
> freely each
> week. And that money is theirs to spend however they wish, even on junky
> items
> we'd not have chosen to spend it on ourselves. When it's gone, it's gone
> though. They'll have to wait for next week for more. This works
> amazingly
> well for our family. The kids really love that they no longer have to ask
> all
> the time for stuff -- they are in control of their own cash. They learn
> pretty
> quickly about deciding what to spend it on. We still buy them interesting
> stuff or bigger ticket items. I wouldn't make my child save up for a new
> bike
> if they had outgrown the old one, for example. This is more about not
> having to
> deal with the constant stream of requests for stuff, stuff, more stuff!
> -Renee
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dena Morrison
Hello everyone,
This is my first post in this group, but have been observing for a couple
weeks to get
a feel.
I just wanted to say, in my humble opinion, and mother of 4 (ages 23, 21,
19 and 5)
I think a dollar for each year they are old is a great system.
Younger children don't require or request as much as older kids, but it
still empowers
everyone to participate in having their own money. Especially for
elementary ages.
I realize it is to provide them a "budget" of their own, but not to a
degree that the
household may be stretched thin.
If you want to offer additional money to add to their budget, perhaps
offering pay for
household needs (age appropriate of course) can be considered. Then those
"jobs"
are available when the parents HAVE the money to offer, rather than a
pre-determined arrangement that may cause financial stress.
Dena
This is my first post in this group, but have been observing for a couple
weeks to get
a feel.
I just wanted to say, in my humble opinion, and mother of 4 (ages 23, 21,
19 and 5)
I think a dollar for each year they are old is a great system.
Younger children don't require or request as much as older kids, but it
still empowers
everyone to participate in having their own money. Especially for
elementary ages.
I realize it is to provide them a "budget" of their own, but not to a
degree that the
household may be stretched thin.
If you want to offer additional money to add to their budget, perhaps
offering pay for
household needs (age appropriate of course) can be considered. Then those
"jobs"
are available when the parents HAVE the money to offer, rather than a
pre-determined arrangement that may cause financial stress.
Dena
On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Marieke Hensel <marieke@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> Hi Renee,
>
> Thanks, my kids are getting allowance.
> They get as many dollars as they are old per week. It doesn't seem enough.
>
> If I may ask how much allowance is reasonable?
>
> :-)
> Marieke
> --
> Marieke Hensel
> http://twitter.com/hensel
>
> 1-877-747-FAME (3263)
> *
> *
> *Orange **you ready to improve your sales?* Receive Branding Personality's
> newsletter full of juicy social media news, events, and special offers.
> http://eepurl.com/o19nP
>
> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Ren�e Cooper <rmilller@...> wrote:
>
> > //the continuous request for wanting to get stuff - more than before//
> > Our solution to the continuous requests for stuff was to supply them an
> > allowance. They do not need to earn this money, it is given to them
> freely
> > each week. And that money is theirs to spend however they wish, even on
> > junky items we'd not have chosen to spend it on ourselves. When it's
> gone,
> > it's gone though. They'll have to wait for next week for more. This
> > works amazingly well for our family. The kids really love that they no
> > longer have to ask all the time for stuff -- they are in control of their
> > own cash. They learn pretty quickly about deciding what to spend it on.
> > We still buy them interesting stuff or bigger ticket items. I wouldn't
> > make my child save up for a new bike if they had outgrown the old one,
> for
> > example. This is more about not having to deal with the constant stream
> of
> > requests for stuff, stuff, more stuff! -Renee
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
--
Embracing His grace,
Dena
*Deuteronomy 28:12*
*"The LORD will open for you His good storehouse, the heavens,*
*to give rain to your land in its season and to bless all the work of your
hand;*
*
*
*
*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Marieke Hensel <marieke@...> wrote:
One of the reasons kids ask-ask-ask-ask to buy-buy-buy is because the ways adults decide when to spend money and on what aren't obvious to them. Often they aren't even obvious to us adults, especially when it comes to "discretionary" purchases. We make a lot of decisions based on a combination of vague financial estimates and pure "ick factor". The benefit of an allowance is it takes away parental "ick factor" from the equation and allows kids to make real financial decisions without trying to sort through Our baggage. But for that to work, kids need enough money to buy what they want on a fairly regular basis. How much that is will depend on your child's interests.
A substantial portion of my family's income has always come from self employment, so that means our "extra" money varies a whole lot from month to month - so much so that giving allowances isn't something we can do consistently. Instead I keep Morgan aprised of how we're doing financially (in a general sense, she doesn't want the gory details) and let her know how much is in the budget for discretionary spending. Having some kind of solid figure - an allowance or budget - makes a big difference. Being generous whenever possible also helps - juggling finances a bit to eke out whatever's in the "kid budget" helps them feel cared for and important to the family. And over time, kids do return that generosity. It's sweet and lovely.
---Meredith
>If you can afford it, then absolutely. But those kinds of decisions are really about your family's income and how much money is "extra".
> So whats your suggestion?
>
> We give my 7yo $7 a week, my 8yo $8 a week, and my 10yo $10 a week.
> Should they be getting $20 a week?
One of the reasons kids ask-ask-ask-ask to buy-buy-buy is because the ways adults decide when to spend money and on what aren't obvious to them. Often they aren't even obvious to us adults, especially when it comes to "discretionary" purchases. We make a lot of decisions based on a combination of vague financial estimates and pure "ick factor". The benefit of an allowance is it takes away parental "ick factor" from the equation and allows kids to make real financial decisions without trying to sort through Our baggage. But for that to work, kids need enough money to buy what they want on a fairly regular basis. How much that is will depend on your child's interests.
A substantial portion of my family's income has always come from self employment, so that means our "extra" money varies a whole lot from month to month - so much so that giving allowances isn't something we can do consistently. Instead I keep Morgan aprised of how we're doing financially (in a general sense, she doesn't want the gory details) and let her know how much is in the budget for discretionary spending. Having some kind of solid figure - an allowance or budget - makes a big difference. Being generous whenever possible also helps - juggling finances a bit to eke out whatever's in the "kid budget" helps them feel cared for and important to the family. And over time, kids do return that generosity. It's sweet and lovely.
---Meredith
Meredith
Marieke Hensel <marieke@...> wrote:
Because of our varied budget we don't do allowances. My daughter saves money she gets from gifts, though. That's her way of spending some and saving some - and it's somewhat like the system I use for putting money away. I don't know if she learned it from me or just uses the same kind of logic I do where saving is concerned.
---Meredith
> They get as many dollars as they are old per week. It doesn't seem enough.If you can afford it, give them enough that they can Reasonably, based on their interests, spend some and save some. They might not do that! But if you can, give them enough they have that option.
>
> If I may ask how much allowance is reasonable?
Because of our varied budget we don't do allowances. My daughter saves money she gets from gifts, though. That's her way of spending some and saving some - and it's somewhat like the system I use for putting money away. I don't know if she learned it from me or just uses the same kind of logic I do where saving is concerned.
---Meredith
Lesley Cross
My kids do not get that much. Not because I don't want to- it's in our long term plan. But we also made the family decision to take a step that delayed that plan. My children feel that their age in dollars per week is a LOT of money....and we look forward to doing something like that as well as expanding the activities we engage in. Actually our plan isn't necessarily based on age...my kids will likely all get the same amount (with younger kids I might base it on how much their stuff tends to cost). And the amount they get is nothing more or less than their own money to spend as they like. We don't say that certain things need to come from allowance and we'll buy them others. When and if I can I am always happy to provide them with the things they need to keep enjoying and exploring interests...craft supplies, games, and yes, even toys and candy (OMG Alethia made the cutest Final Fantasy Chocobo cupcakes...which took more $ than you'd expect for the necessary candies, etc...)
But still my kids get $10 a month, which some months, when unexpected expenses arose, has involved cutting back other places like food or driving places. They are able to save up when they want to buy something more expensive....and they still have SOME money of their own when our budget, like now, doesn't really cover extras. When we have it, we give them more, or get them something they've been saving for, or more of the stuff above....and/or spend it on family activities. When having it is consistent, we'll all get more to play with independently.
I'm primarily sharing this, not to defend a low allowance or focus on limitations, but because I think there is a certain amount of shame for many when we can't give our kids more and I want others in that situation to know that it's not something to be ashamed of. It's the spirit of generosity that counts. There is such a thing as can't. If you spend $100 a month on yourself (sounds like nothing to some and a fortune to others) and give your kids $10, that's being cheap. If you give your kids $10 and put off buying yourself a $10 pack of underwear when you need them....well, you probably can't even afford the $10. We often make trade offs in favor of being with our kids....like a more generous or second income. And sometimes a job is lost, or illness happens. But I think one can be cash poor and still be generous.
I like to think of it in terms of giving them an equal share in the expendable income of the family. In our family some of that is pooled to pay for things we do as a family- meals out, movies, vacations, etc... and the rest roughly divided up. The $10 a month is a minimum I try to keep to...so they have some money of their own. Even if my dh and I don't and even if the family activities aren't happening. But it's all a big picture thing...our kids are represented in all our financial decisions...we choose what we have in our lives based on everyone.
Lesley
http://euphorialifedesignstudio.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But still my kids get $10 a month, which some months, when unexpected expenses arose, has involved cutting back other places like food or driving places. They are able to save up when they want to buy something more expensive....and they still have SOME money of their own when our budget, like now, doesn't really cover extras. When we have it, we give them more, or get them something they've been saving for, or more of the stuff above....and/or spend it on family activities. When having it is consistent, we'll all get more to play with independently.
I'm primarily sharing this, not to defend a low allowance or focus on limitations, but because I think there is a certain amount of shame for many when we can't give our kids more and I want others in that situation to know that it's not something to be ashamed of. It's the spirit of generosity that counts. There is such a thing as can't. If you spend $100 a month on yourself (sounds like nothing to some and a fortune to others) and give your kids $10, that's being cheap. If you give your kids $10 and put off buying yourself a $10 pack of underwear when you need them....well, you probably can't even afford the $10. We often make trade offs in favor of being with our kids....like a more generous or second income. And sometimes a job is lost, or illness happens. But I think one can be cash poor and still be generous.
I like to think of it in terms of giving them an equal share in the expendable income of the family. In our family some of that is pooled to pay for things we do as a family- meals out, movies, vacations, etc... and the rest roughly divided up. The $10 a month is a minimum I try to keep to...so they have some money of their own. Even if my dh and I don't and even if the family activities aren't happening. But it's all a big picture thing...our kids are represented in all our financial decisions...we choose what we have in our lives based on everyone.
Lesley
http://euphorialifedesignstudio.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Dena Morrison <morrjoy2012@...> wrote:
If the family is struggling, it might be a good idea for family members to brainstorm other ways to pull in money - odd jobs or selling things or whatever. That makes sense. It makes sense to offer chances for kids to do things like that if they're interested anyway.
---Meredith
>> If you want to offer additional money to add to their budget, perhapsWhy not just give them more money? It sounds like one of those ideas tied "teaching kids the value of money" - those sorts of arrangements more often set kids up to see adults as selfish and controlling, though.
> offering pay for
> household needs (age appropriate of course) can be considered.
If the family is struggling, it might be a good idea for family members to brainstorm other ways to pull in money - odd jobs or selling things or whatever. That makes sense. It makes sense to offer chances for kids to do things like that if they're interested anyway.
---Meredith
Lesley Cross
There are also jobs that families *might* pay someone from outside the family to do....like lawn care or cleaning. I had an arrangement with my mom as a teen where I got paid as if I was a housekeeper for doing a weekly housecleaning. If we were going to send out dh's shirts to be cleaned/pressed and one of our children wanted the job, we might pay them to do it instead. Actually I got paid to iron my mom's uniforms as a kid too. If we were paying a lawn care service to do our lawn, my kids might decide to do it for the money that would otherwise go there. As it is, my son does the lawn here anyway. I'd love to pay him for it. Right now he does it so his dad has time to take him fishing. He might also simply choose to let us pay the lawn service and NOT do the lawn...if that were an option right now. Frankly I'd love to have someone clean my kitchen on a nightly basis...for now I ask for help and sometimes get it. In the future I might consider hiring someone. My kids will get dibs on the job if they want it.
I don't feel comfortable "making up" jobs for my kids to make money....especially if I can just give them the money. But if there's a job we pay for and one of my children can do it and wants to....they can certainly get paid for it.
Lesley
http://euphorialifedesignstudio.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't feel comfortable "making up" jobs for my kids to make money....especially if I can just give them the money. But if there's a job we pay for and one of my children can do it and wants to....they can certainly get paid for it.
Lesley
http://euphorialifedesignstudio.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dena Morrison
(( I don't feel comfortable "making up" jobs for my kids to make
money....especially if I can just give them the money. But if there's a job
we pay for and one of my children can do it and wants to....they can
certainly get paid for it. ))
This was more like what I was talking about. Being willing and able to pay
for outside jobs that the kids might want to do instead. I give my kids
money whenever I"m able, and do extra things that either they need or have
been waiting for, when I am able, because I want them to have what they
need and want. I enjoy blessing them when I can, and they understand that
is not always a possibility. Like someone else said earlier, our income is
almost entirely self-employment, so it varies greatly through-out the
months.
I was simply agreeing the dollar/year amount for the younger children made
sense to me, seems more than fair at that age, and the need to increase
wasn't there, unless the parents were willing and able to do more.
We 100% agree that you can be cash poor and still be generous! Both in and
out of our family, whenever we see a need we are
able to meet, we do it. Joyfully!
And I"m FAR more concerned about the TIME I have with my children than
anything. I grew up without any money for anything, including often the
necessities, so we invested a lot of energy into finding creative ways to
make the most of our time together.
money....especially if I can just give them the money. But if there's a job
we pay for and one of my children can do it and wants to....they can
certainly get paid for it. ))
This was more like what I was talking about. Being willing and able to pay
for outside jobs that the kids might want to do instead. I give my kids
money whenever I"m able, and do extra things that either they need or have
been waiting for, when I am able, because I want them to have what they
need and want. I enjoy blessing them when I can, and they understand that
is not always a possibility. Like someone else said earlier, our income is
almost entirely self-employment, so it varies greatly through-out the
months.
I was simply agreeing the dollar/year amount for the younger children made
sense to me, seems more than fair at that age, and the need to increase
wasn't there, unless the parents were willing and able to do more.
We 100% agree that you can be cash poor and still be generous! Both in and
out of our family, whenever we see a need we are
able to meet, we do it. Joyfully!
And I"m FAR more concerned about the TIME I have with my children than
anything. I grew up without any money for anything, including often the
necessities, so we invested a lot of energy into finding creative ways to
make the most of our time together.
On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 6:47 PM, Lesley Cross <lesleycross@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> There are also jobs that families *might* pay someone from outside the
> family to do....like lawn care or cleaning. I had an arrangement with my
> mom as a teen where I got paid as if I was a housekeeper for doing a weekly
> housecleaning. If we were going to send out dh's shirts to be
> cleaned/pressed and one of our children wanted the job, we might pay them
> to do it instead. Actually I got paid to iron my mom's uniforms as a kid
> too. If we were paying a lawn care service to do our lawn, my kids might
> decide to do it for the money that would otherwise go there. As it is, my
> son does the lawn here anyway. I'd love to pay him for it. Right now he
> does it so his dad has time to take him fishing. He might also simply
> choose to let us pay the lawn service and NOT do the lawn...if that were an
> option right now. Frankly I'd love to have someone clean my kitchen on a
> nightly basis...for now I ask for help and sometimes get it. In the future
> I might consider hiring someone. My kids will get dibs on the job if they
> want it.
>
> I don't feel comfortable "making up" jobs for my kids to make
> money....especially if I can just give them the money. But if there's a job
> we pay for and one of my children can do it and wants to....they can
> certainly get paid for it.
>
> Lesley
>
> http://euphorialifedesignstudio.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
--
Embracing His grace,
Dena
*Deuteronomy 28:12*
*"The LORD will open for you His good storehouse, the heavens,*
*to give rain to your land in its season and to bless all the work of your
hand;*
*
*
*
*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rinelle
> Younger children don't require or request as much as older kids, but itThis is a generalisation, and one not really based in fact at all. If you're
> still empowers everyone to participate in having their own money.
> Especially for
> elementary ages.
assuming that little kids need less money because mum is buying more
expensive toys for them at other times, then maybe, but to assume that
little kids need less, or that toys for smaller kids are less expensive is
not accurate.
When my daughter was really little, she loved the fisher price little people
series, I think we had them all (at the time, there's new ones out now),
enough to set up a whole little people village! She played with them nearly
every day. A set cost about the same as an equivalent sized lego set. Not
cheaper at all.
And as for request, she asked for pretty much everything she saw as a child.
Now she's older, she's sometimes asking for something, then looking at the
price and deciding for herself that she doesn't actually want it. She's a
little more discerning now.
Why do little kids deserve less money?
Tamara
Amy at Six Flower Mom
Well, I am a little late on replying ... and I have been trying to keep up on what everyone else has posted as to not just repeat ... so please forgive me if it has already been said. I have noticed a lot about allowances and I wanted to throw into the mix our 'way' as it seems different. Disclaimer: I know nothing about you and your children, I am only giving thoughts based on my family life. I am a mom of six children ages 17, 14, 11, 7, 5, and 3!
We do not give allowances ... I have a hard time with just handing money to my children for no reason what so ever on a regular basis. I feel it teaches them that they are entitled to something just because ... not a great sense of reality in my opinion and they might as well learn that from the very beginning. I also do not pay them to do the regular chores around the house ... as a family we all have to contribute to things.
Now having said that I do like to give opportunities for them to earn money ... so there are a few bigger chores that I do pay for when they are in bigger need of being done. Such as mowing the lawn ... normally I would not ask the kids to do this so if they do, then I pay them. For this task I have offered them minimum wage ... they clock their hours and get paid on pay day. It takes about 3 hours to mow our lawn (which is $21.75). This is our highest paying chore! And please note we have a one acre lot and a push mower and it is not all flat ... it is hard work!
So what do I do when my children want something ... they keep a list and save to get it ... yes even big items! And we help them out, offering to match what they have if they get to a certain point, saying hey, we have a little extra this week and I would like to donate to you. Doing odd jobs for neighbors, saving holiday money, etc...
I also try to get things off their list for them at random, when they least expect it and there is extra money. This makes it even more special!
I also bring them to lawn sales, Goodwill and thrift stores and utilizes places like ebay and Craigslist ... there are so many kids things out there that kids are 'bored' with, rarely do we pay for something new!
I guess for me it is important for my children to know that money is earned and that it is not easy always. I also think that it is so important to learn to wait for something. So often after it has been on the list for a week, they have forgotten and no longer want it! We are a society of instant gratification and I think that it makes it hard to stay on a budget so I feel this is a very important lesson to learn!
My kids have a lot and my kids tease sometimes but we talk about it and we share and even my kids help each other out. My 14 year old has been saving money to buy a laptop ... she heard of family that was having a hard time and she asked if she could donate her money to them ... I told her it was her money to do as she pleased and indeed she donated all the money that she has been saving for the last year! My point is that in general my kids know that money just buys things and we really do not need all those things to survive and be happy!
As with any situation, I think talking, talking, talking with your children and really with them and not at them is the most important tool to helping them see where you are coming from.
As for showering ... I think all kids go through that. My son is right now and I make him shower once per week on the day he goes out to something special ... otherwise I am quite easy on it ... he will grow out of it! Again I keep talking with him ... when I see his nails are dirty, I may say eewww ... can you imagine what is under there and really talk about it! Gives him reasons as to why I think it is important and with time he will figure it out.
As for your youngest making messes while you clean ... in our house 'clean up' is a group effort! And so is play. We do these things together ... so if I am cleaning, my kids are with me and cleaning and the jobs get done a lot quicker. Then when it is play time ... I play with them and things get put away better! We are a family of 8 in 750 square foot house ... we can not afford to have big huge messes, there is no space!
I use to be a clean fanatic and I would say to my kids"our house is a disaster?" and my oldest would always say "mom, we do not see it the same as you?" that is when I realized that I was dramatic and they were 'blind'!!! So we talked a lot about what and why I needed certain things in order and I also learned to let go of a few things .... and we all live more pleasantly now!
And just to say ... we do argue and fight and have the same issues as everyone ... I am describing the great days! It is good to remind myself that if I follow my advice it helps too! I forget sometimes!
Peace, love and kindness, Amy
We do not give allowances ... I have a hard time with just handing money to my children for no reason what so ever on a regular basis. I feel it teaches them that they are entitled to something just because ... not a great sense of reality in my opinion and they might as well learn that from the very beginning. I also do not pay them to do the regular chores around the house ... as a family we all have to contribute to things.
Now having said that I do like to give opportunities for them to earn money ... so there are a few bigger chores that I do pay for when they are in bigger need of being done. Such as mowing the lawn ... normally I would not ask the kids to do this so if they do, then I pay them. For this task I have offered them minimum wage ... they clock their hours and get paid on pay day. It takes about 3 hours to mow our lawn (which is $21.75). This is our highest paying chore! And please note we have a one acre lot and a push mower and it is not all flat ... it is hard work!
So what do I do when my children want something ... they keep a list and save to get it ... yes even big items! And we help them out, offering to match what they have if they get to a certain point, saying hey, we have a little extra this week and I would like to donate to you. Doing odd jobs for neighbors, saving holiday money, etc...
I also try to get things off their list for them at random, when they least expect it and there is extra money. This makes it even more special!
I also bring them to lawn sales, Goodwill and thrift stores and utilizes places like ebay and Craigslist ... there are so many kids things out there that kids are 'bored' with, rarely do we pay for something new!
I guess for me it is important for my children to know that money is earned and that it is not easy always. I also think that it is so important to learn to wait for something. So often after it has been on the list for a week, they have forgotten and no longer want it! We are a society of instant gratification and I think that it makes it hard to stay on a budget so I feel this is a very important lesson to learn!
My kids have a lot and my kids tease sometimes but we talk about it and we share and even my kids help each other out. My 14 year old has been saving money to buy a laptop ... she heard of family that was having a hard time and she asked if she could donate her money to them ... I told her it was her money to do as she pleased and indeed she donated all the money that she has been saving for the last year! My point is that in general my kids know that money just buys things and we really do not need all those things to survive and be happy!
As with any situation, I think talking, talking, talking with your children and really with them and not at them is the most important tool to helping them see where you are coming from.
As for showering ... I think all kids go through that. My son is right now and I make him shower once per week on the day he goes out to something special ... otherwise I am quite easy on it ... he will grow out of it! Again I keep talking with him ... when I see his nails are dirty, I may say eewww ... can you imagine what is under there and really talk about it! Gives him reasons as to why I think it is important and with time he will figure it out.
As for your youngest making messes while you clean ... in our house 'clean up' is a group effort! And so is play. We do these things together ... so if I am cleaning, my kids are with me and cleaning and the jobs get done a lot quicker. Then when it is play time ... I play with them and things get put away better! We are a family of 8 in 750 square foot house ... we can not afford to have big huge messes, there is no space!
I use to be a clean fanatic and I would say to my kids"our house is a disaster?" and my oldest would always say "mom, we do not see it the same as you?" that is when I realized that I was dramatic and they were 'blind'!!! So we talked a lot about what and why I needed certain things in order and I also learned to let go of a few things .... and we all live more pleasantly now!
And just to say ... we do argue and fight and have the same issues as everyone ... I am describing the great days! It is good to remind myself that if I follow my advice it helps too! I forget sometimes!
Peace, love and kindness, Amy
--- In [email protected], "sara" <sarajoturtle@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the reply I really appreciate the help, in reality I was really just having a bad day and needed a boost. I do have TONS of questions though, about specific situations that I hope I can get help with. I will check the library for the book you suggested.
>
> So the shower situation, we babysit our neighbors after school Mon-Wed, and have a coop on Fri so we are around people almost every day....should I just make him take one Thursday before the coop and not bother him about it when the neighbors are oveer?
>
> I understand what your saying about chores, its something I need to work on because I definitely do not do them joyfully, I pretty much hate cleaning, but I hate living in a mess too... That's also one of the things that really bothers my husband he is kind of a near freak and he gets annoyed if I don't keep up on housework, which is hard for me to do. I will check out the links!
>
> Yes oftentimes my youngest is by himself playing while I am cleaning and that is when the playroom gets destroyed, right now he is really into puzzles but he is only 3 and thinks if he can do a 25 piece puzzle that he should be able to do a 100 piece puzzle too, so he gets out one, notices its too hard and goes to get another and another etc etc.
>
> One more question I have is about the grocery store, I normally have to take them with me because my husband works a lot, and when we go they are constantly begging for everything they see, they really don't even think about what it is they are asking for, I know this because they were once begging me for a watermelon when we had just picked 7 from our garden the day before! I would like to get them some of the things they want from the store but at the same time we are on a strict budget and I can't afford to get them everything they ask for, and get normal food too...
>
> Thanks for the help again it is much appreciated!
>
sarajoturtle
>Yes I have moved them, part of the problem is I'm not g ood at organizing, I just don't think of things like that until its not working
> is there any particular reason you have 100 piece puzzles accessible to a 3
> year old? you can set the playroom (and house) up for success and easier
> maintenance - that can make a big difference!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
sara
He actually loves the coop, and loves the neighbors coming over he is very social. This is just a whole new way of thinking so its hard for me to know what to do, its less of an armpit thing, more of a dirty underwear thing :\ sorry tmi...maybe reminding him to change his underwear daily??
>
> If he's stinky, offer some deodorants as an alternative to showering - don't make it something to fight over. Don't make it a kind of punishment for having friends over. And if he's not happy with having all those people over, look for ways for him to have some privacy and personal space! maybe move the coop somewhere else if it's not something all your kids love.
>
> It seems like the problem is that you can see solutions to things and then try to impose those solutions rather than giving your kids the chance to find their own. That's something I do - I come up with Great solutions! but my kids don't want to be told, they want to figure things out. And as frustrating as it is when they figure out the solution I had originally (grumble) they're more likely to feel good about it because it's something they've considered and weighed, maybe tried some other options, and worked out for themselves. That's an important part of how people learn to make decisions, by doing the work of making them - right and wrong - and then assessing the results and modifying their choices at need.
>
> ---Meredith
>
sarajoturtle
I'm really liking the allowance idea, I don't know why I didn't think about it. I think in our situation a dollar per year of age each week sounds like it would work, generally the things they ask for are inexpensive they just ask for everything, its usually candy/treat items. We generally stay out of the toy department for that reason, but if they had allowance they would be able to save for toys. We also have a christmas account so they usually get a lot of their requests for toys on christmas...
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 29, 2012, at 9:40 AM, sarajoturtle wrote:
See a mess or a breakdown not as a failure but feedback that something needs changed. It might mean reorganizing. Or planning ahead to prevent a problem that's happened in the past.
I think this society focuses too much on "getting it right". As though there were some huge list of right answers we're supposed to have been born with with our parents making us memorize anything we missed.
Way more important is seeing problems as something that needs a solution rather than having done something wrong.
Life is feedback not failure.
Failure only comes from ignoring the feedback!
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> part of the problem is I'm not g ood at organizingPart of the problem may be that you think you should be able to get the organizing (and perhaps other things?) right the first time?
See a mess or a breakdown not as a failure but feedback that something needs changed. It might mean reorganizing. Or planning ahead to prevent a problem that's happened in the past.
I think this society focuses too much on "getting it right". As though there were some huge list of right answers we're supposed to have been born with with our parents making us memorize anything we missed.
Way more important is seeing problems as something that needs a solution rather than having done something wrong.
Life is feedback not failure.
Failure only comes from ignoring the feedback!
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
These are such classic parenting "truisms" I'm not going to bother quoting the source. Please read all "you" statements as general, rather than specific:
The trouble with focusing on teaching is that it ignores what and how people really learn. There's a grand parenting myth that in order for children to learn what's right and good, you have to be stern and strong, put your foot down, make them work for it, make them prove they're worthy. The marvelous thing about unschooling is you get to see that none of that is really true. You actually Can be sweet and kind and generous and gracious to your kids without "teaching" them to be rotten little monsters who don't give a crap about anyone but themselves. I'll repeat the important part of that:
It's Okay to Be Nice to your Children! It won't ruin them for life.
Why did you have children? If it was to make more workers for your family economy, then your philosophy is perfectly consistent and reasonable (and this is why unschooling doesn't work in some environments - if children are necessary to the financial solvency of a community it is not possible to unschool).
But if you have the luxury of valuing your children other reasons - for their love of life, their fascination with the world, their personalities and uniqueness, then they are already contributing to your family and your life. You don't Have To make them earn anything else - they've already succeeded in enriching your world.
Probably, you're thinking in terms of teaching, though, and getting stuck there. It seems reasonable that you have to teach children to be good workers, because they don't start out that way... except that's not the case. They Do start out motivated and well able to learn what they need... until teaching sabotages their learning, interrupting what they care to learn until mindless, silly tasks are accomplished. Over time, without being taught or required to "contribute" kids do discover the value of some of those mindless, silly tasks and start to take them on - they Voluntarily begin to help. That's a consistent finding across families that don't require "contributions" but are open to them. Openness matters, for sure! Homes where kids are not Permitted to contribute are different matters - and those are often the homes people point to when they say: see these kids weren't made to help and they're helpless. They weren't "not made" they were "not allowed".
But it isn't always earned - and certainly money is not always earned in proportion to work. People receive money from trusts, insurance, investments, inheritance, spouses, grants, and gifts. And there are people who work for no money or very little compared to what they do.
There's no correlation between making kids sing for their supper and a strong work ethic. The laziest, most money-grubbing people I've met were raised doing work for their parents and taught that money had to be earned. Some of the most generous people I've met were raised with no expectations they "contribute to the family". Which isn't to say that chores will necessarily ruin your kids - teaching isn't learning no matter how you slice it. What kids learn from parental expectations is personal - some will learn they are valued as good workers, others will learn that work sucks and it's better to bilk the system for every penny.
And - and! it's impossible to say yes even to all the things which are theoretically possible. Parents aren't always as capable, creative, and have enough energy for everything (although we're often better than we think, especially with practice!). Parents aren't perfect - they're human beings! And that's really fine because so are children. Never, every worry that a child will grow up thinking life is easy.
One of the fascinating aspects of radical unschooling is getting to see the biggest parenting "have tos" proved wrong. You don't have to be stern and hard for their benefit, you don't have to teach them life is hard, you don't have to teach them the benefit of work - you don't have to teach anything at all. You can live with them as friends - you the more together, capable friend who is graciously offering your resources to your less informed, less capable friend who needs a lot of help for awhile. What a great friend to be! What a great friend to have! I didn't get that good of a friend as a child, so I'm finding it a special honor to get to be one. It's marvelous.
What you can do is set kids up to succeed and don't make them wait for things unnecessarily when you can avoid it and help kids wait gracefully - either by helping them find a distraction or commiserating gently and supporting their emotions. Which one is more appropriate will depend on the child and situation.
Yes, kids can learn things like that even in conventional parenting situations, if parents are generous and engaged in other ways. Being generous and engaged are the big things - and that's good to know if you're daunted by these crazy radical ideas that kids can learn grace and thoughtfulness and responsibility without being taught.
This is a piece of advice that works so well for some families and is utterly disastrous for others. What Is important is creating an environment where communication is open and flows both ways, but how that happens Rarely involves lots of talking. When it does, it's a personality thing.
A big part of what makes communication work is actually stepping back from trying to get someone else to see your point of view and considering theirs - and that's all the more important when "they" are children. There is development to consider and the innate power differential between a parent and a child. So it is all the more important that parents can see a child's perspective if they want to open up the lines of communication.
That's a good example of one of the ways communication can flow - notice it starts with mom paying attention to what a child has to say and modifying her standards to fit the needs and perceptions of her kids. Examples like this are important because they put all this la-la-la theory into perspective.
---Meredith
>I have a hard time with just handing money to my children for no reason what so ever on a regular basis. I feel it teaches....***************
The trouble with focusing on teaching is that it ignores what and how people really learn. There's a grand parenting myth that in order for children to learn what's right and good, you have to be stern and strong, put your foot down, make them work for it, make them prove they're worthy. The marvelous thing about unschooling is you get to see that none of that is really true. You actually Can be sweet and kind and generous and gracious to your kids without "teaching" them to be rotten little monsters who don't give a crap about anyone but themselves. I'll repeat the important part of that:
It's Okay to Be Nice to your Children! It won't ruin them for life.
>>just handing money to my children for no reasonGenerosity is a reason and a darned good one. Kids don't become "spoiled" by an abundance of generosity, they grow bitter when attention and care are replaced with things.
>>I also do not pay them to do the regular chores around the house ... as a family we all have to contribute to things.*****************
Why did you have children? If it was to make more workers for your family economy, then your philosophy is perfectly consistent and reasonable (and this is why unschooling doesn't work in some environments - if children are necessary to the financial solvency of a community it is not possible to unschool).
But if you have the luxury of valuing your children other reasons - for their love of life, their fascination with the world, their personalities and uniqueness, then they are already contributing to your family and your life. You don't Have To make them earn anything else - they've already succeeded in enriching your world.
Probably, you're thinking in terms of teaching, though, and getting stuck there. It seems reasonable that you have to teach children to be good workers, because they don't start out that way... except that's not the case. They Do start out motivated and well able to learn what they need... until teaching sabotages their learning, interrupting what they care to learn until mindless, silly tasks are accomplished. Over time, without being taught or required to "contribute" kids do discover the value of some of those mindless, silly tasks and start to take them on - they Voluntarily begin to help. That's a consistent finding across families that don't require "contributions" but are open to them. Openness matters, for sure! Homes where kids are not Permitted to contribute are different matters - and those are often the homes people point to when they say: see these kids weren't made to help and they're helpless. They weren't "not made" they were "not allowed".
> I guess for me it is important for my children to know that money is earned****************
But it isn't always earned - and certainly money is not always earned in proportion to work. People receive money from trusts, insurance, investments, inheritance, spouses, grants, and gifts. And there are people who work for no money or very little compared to what they do.
There's no correlation between making kids sing for their supper and a strong work ethic. The laziest, most money-grubbing people I've met were raised doing work for their parents and taught that money had to be earned. Some of the most generous people I've met were raised with no expectations they "contribute to the family". Which isn't to say that chores will necessarily ruin your kids - teaching isn't learning no matter how you slice it. What kids learn from parental expectations is personal - some will learn they are valued as good workers, others will learn that work sucks and it's better to bilk the system for every penny.
>>and that it is not easy alwaysThis is another fantastically huge parenting myth: that it's somehow possible for kids to learn that life is easy and they can have anything they want. There is not a shred of reality in that myth. Really, you could bend over backwards saying yes to everything all day long and kids would still run into a hundred roadblocks, frustrations and disappointments. The sun will go down no matter how hard you wish otherwise. It rains on picnics. Squirrels eat the tulips, the deer fail to show up not matter how long you wait, and the hummingbirds eventually fly off until next year. People get tired and are uncooperative. Bodies change and old things no longer fit. Beloved toys and blankets wear out and fall apart. Life is so full of hardship and disaster that parents don't need to add a single "no" for kids to figure that out... usually by age 2. It's that obvious.
And - and! it's impossible to say yes even to all the things which are theoretically possible. Parents aren't always as capable, creative, and have enough energy for everything (although we're often better than we think, especially with practice!). Parents aren't perfect - they're human beings! And that's really fine because so are children. Never, every worry that a child will grow up thinking life is easy.
One of the fascinating aspects of radical unschooling is getting to see the biggest parenting "have tos" proved wrong. You don't have to be stern and hard for their benefit, you don't have to teach them life is hard, you don't have to teach them the benefit of work - you don't have to teach anything at all. You can live with them as friends - you the more together, capable friend who is graciously offering your resources to your less informed, less capable friend who needs a lot of help for awhile. What a great friend to be! What a great friend to have! I didn't get that good of a friend as a child, so I'm finding it a special honor to get to be one. It's marvelous.
>I also think that it is so important to learn to wait for something.Delayed gratification is one of the many things adults think comes from teaching which is actually developmental - and like anything developmental that means some people learn it much sooner than others, based on unique qualities. When kids are required to wait too often and for too long, some of them learn to be resigned, some to be resentful, some that they aren't worthy, some that when they grow up it will be their turn to make Others wait. A lot of that will have to do with personality.
What you can do is set kids up to succeed and don't make them wait for things unnecessarily when you can avoid it and help kids wait gracefully - either by helping them find a distraction or commiserating gently and supporting their emotions. Which one is more appropriate will depend on the child and situation.
>>My point is that in general my kids know that money just buys things and we really do not need all those things to survive and be happy!*****************
Yes, kids can learn things like that even in conventional parenting situations, if parents are generous and engaged in other ways. Being generous and engaged are the big things - and that's good to know if you're daunted by these crazy radical ideas that kids can learn grace and thoughtfulness and responsibility without being taught.
> As with any situation, I think talking, talking, talking with your children and really with them and not at them is the most important tool to helping them see where you are coming from.***************
This is a piece of advice that works so well for some families and is utterly disastrous for others. What Is important is creating an environment where communication is open and flows both ways, but how that happens Rarely involves lots of talking. When it does, it's a personality thing.
A big part of what makes communication work is actually stepping back from trying to get someone else to see your point of view and considering theirs - and that's all the more important when "they" are children. There is development to consider and the innate power differential between a parent and a child. So it is all the more important that parents can see a child's perspective if they want to open up the lines of communication.
>>> I use to be a clean fanatic and I would say to my kids"our house is a disaster?" and my oldest would always say "mom, we do not see it the same as you?" that is when I realized that I was dramatic and they were 'blind'!!! So we talked a lot about what and why I needed certain things in order and I also learned to let go of a few things .... and we all live more pleasantly now!**************
That's a good example of one of the ways communication can flow - notice it starts with mom paying attention to what a child has to say and modifying her standards to fit the needs and perceptions of her kids. Examples like this are important because they put all this la-la-la theory into perspective.
---Meredith
plaidpanties666
"sara" <sarajoturtle@...> wrote:
Ta Da! You're coming up with ideas to fit your unique situation! It takes time to get in the habit of this kind of problem solving, so don't despair; you're learning too.
Reminding him to change his underwear is good - does he have plenty that he likes? Make sure he has enough that he's not running out of underthings right when you'd most like him to be fresh.
---Meredith
>****************
> He actually loves the coop, and loves the neighbors coming over he is very social. This is just a whole new way of thinking so its hard for me to know what to do, its less of an armpit thing, more of a dirty underwear thing :\ sorry tmi...maybe reminding him to change his underwear daily??
Ta Da! You're coming up with ideas to fit your unique situation! It takes time to get in the habit of this kind of problem solving, so don't despair; you're learning too.
Reminding him to change his underwear is good - does he have plenty that he likes? Make sure he has enough that he's not running out of underthings right when you'd most like him to be fresh.
---Meredith
Meredith
"sarajoturtle" <sarajoturtle@...> wrote:
That's something to talk about with your kids, maybe, or experiment a little and see what works better for your family. Holidays and birthdays can make convenient ways to save up for big ticket items, or to solicit such things from grandparents (if that's an option in your family). But it can be stressful on all sorts of levels to have that sort of feast-and-famine cycle going with almost no new stuff for months and then a flood. So it might be better to spread out the spending if some of what you're getting for those Big days are really small things you could get any time. Spread the love and generosity, and they'll still enjoy the holidays.
---Meredith
> We also have a christmas account so they usually get a lot of their requests for toys on christmas...**************
That's something to talk about with your kids, maybe, or experiment a little and see what works better for your family. Holidays and birthdays can make convenient ways to save up for big ticket items, or to solicit such things from grandparents (if that's an option in your family). But it can be stressful on all sorts of levels to have that sort of feast-and-famine cycle going with almost no new stuff for months and then a flood. So it might be better to spread out the spending if some of what you're getting for those Big days are really small things you could get any time. Spread the love and generosity, and they'll still enjoy the holidays.
---Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 29, 2012, at 2:02 PM, Meredith wrote:
In addition to being nice, make the values you hope they'll have part of your problem solving toolbox. When you help them with a problem, find ways for it to be kind, respectful, thoughtful, generous, patient, helpful, safe and so on. And those tools won't just make them feel good but they'll see how valuable they are too.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> It's Okay to Be Nice to your Children! It won't ruin them for lifeNot only won't it not ruin them, they'll be nice because they'll be growing up in a home where that's how people are treated.
In addition to being nice, make the values you hope they'll have part of your problem solving toolbox. When you help them with a problem, find ways for it to be kind, respectful, thoughtful, generous, patient, helpful, safe and so on. And those tools won't just make them feel good but they'll see how valuable they are too.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
>>I guess for me it is important for my children to know that money is earned and that it is not easy always. I also think that it is so important to learn to wait for something. So often after it has been on the list for a week, they have forgotten and no longer want it! We are a society of instant gratification and I think that it makes it hard to stay on a budget so I feel this is a very important lesson to learn!<<It's hard when you feel a lesson is important to learn to not try and teach it. This is important, writ large on your brain, doesn't mean that teaching will hand along that message. Teaching is such a lovely exercise in ineffectual process. Sandra has a page on teach versus learn: http://sandradodd.com/teaching/%c2%a0that might help you to see, better, what I'm saying. What I learned from working for my money, which was my natal family's system, was that money had huge value. Money and things were so important that I could measure my worth by how much money or things I was given for Christmas or birthdays. My weekly allowance was my lunch money, so I chose to not eat lunch so that I could use the money for other things. I learned that stealing was often a means to an end. And as the end was what was important, the goods obtained, theft was justifiable. And I learned that my parents weren't generous with me, even if they spent money seemingly frivolously
in their own lives.
So, you don't pay your children money because you feel they need to learn that earning money is the way our society works. I don't earn money. David supports me without me having to clock hours or do a list of pre-approved pay for chores in order to get whatever it is that requires money. It would be a very unpleasant relationship if he required certain tasks of me before I was allowed to go buy a book or a DS game or a pair of binoculars. Presumably you feed and clothe your children, so the money they are earning is to be used for those things you think of as gratuitous, like video games or toys or, gosh, I have such a hard time thinking of anything that Simon or Linnaea might be interested in dismissively, I'm not sure what would be gratuitous. I'm also assuming that you home-educate them, that you are unschooling them? So learning is in everything, video games are intense instructables, gosh, I've learned so much this last week playing Borderlands 2.
Toys are huge tools for learning, soft toys, lego, bionicles, b'damen, nerf guns, kapla blocks, on and on, so much learning involved. Would it help, if rather than seeing the proscribed time to wait as the learning moment, as looking for the learning potential in them engaging with those toys and games that they are interested in?
When Linnaea and Simon were little I didn't want to be the one that stood between them and what they wanted. So I gave them an allowance to help them to have a yes to hand when I was going to struggle to buy that toy. It used to be in cash, in a wallet or in a purse. But over time their allowance has become a tally on the calendar. Often what they have on the calendar is larger than what I have in our discretionary funds budget. Because, oddly, even though they didn't earn the money, even though they didn't have to wait to spend it, they are very discerning in what they buy. And they are generous. Another thing I didn't expect and that wasn't part of the reasoning I went with when I started giving them their own money. They are very generous. They share with each other, they share with friends, they share with me and their father. It isn't because the money doesn't have value, it's because the money doesn't have the most value. Their relationships are
more important than the balance in their calendar bank account. I wasn't teaching that, they just learned.
I buy them things, still. Sometimes I fail to buy them things. Sometimes I offer to buy them this thing or that thing and they don't want it. I can't remember turning down an offer even if it wasn't something I wanted when I was their ages. They do it regularly. Even without having to earn their own money.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lindaguitar
--- In [email protected], Marieke Hensel <marieke@...> wrote:
To a family that has to worry every month about whether they can pay the rent, the electric, water, gas, and phone bills, and has to get some of their food from the local food bank, no amount of allowance is "reasonable", because they just don't have it to give.
To a family that lives in a 5000-foot mansion on the beach, owns a couple of boats, buys iphones and ipads for each of their children, takes trips abroad several times a year, has a full-time housekeeper, and owns more cars than there are drivers, $100/month per child might be reasonable.
Most people in this group are probably somewhere between the two extremes. I suspect that very few of us could afford to give our kids enough money to buy everything they want. And, given that most of us do not have unlimited financial resources, it might always seem that what we give our kids "doesn't seem enough."
The question is, what can you realistically afford to give them?
Linda
>I haven't read any of the replies to this yet, so maybe this has already been said, but - there is no objective, universal standard of "reasonable" when it comes to allowance. It depends on what the family can afford.
> .... my kids are getting allowance.
> They get as many dollars as they are old per week. It doesn't seem
> enough.
>
> If I may ask how much allowance is reasonable?
>
> Marieke
To a family that has to worry every month about whether they can pay the rent, the electric, water, gas, and phone bills, and has to get some of their food from the local food bank, no amount of allowance is "reasonable", because they just don't have it to give.
To a family that lives in a 5000-foot mansion on the beach, owns a couple of boats, buys iphones and ipads for each of their children, takes trips abroad several times a year, has a full-time housekeeper, and owns more cars than there are drivers, $100/month per child might be reasonable.
Most people in this group are probably somewhere between the two extremes. I suspect that very few of us could afford to give our kids enough money to buy everything they want. And, given that most of us do not have unlimited financial resources, it might always seem that what we give our kids "doesn't seem enough."
The question is, what can you realistically afford to give them?
Linda