How to find a compromise?
messy_boys
I am really struggling with various things, and hoping for some input and experience from you all.
We have been deschooling for a while now. You may or may not remember that I have six children, ages 14 - 2, and that I have recently divorced my alcoholic husband. Many of you suggested that our deschooling would simply look like vacation and that is pretty much what we've done. In many ways it has been great and I see improvements in our relationships and more joy in our home.
My ex-husband is not on board with unschooling. He has been putting pressure on me to come up with a plan for their school this year, so I tried to put together something as loose as possible, but it is not unschooling. It's minimal...but it still requires us to get certain things done each day. I've started to try and start shifting everyone towards bedtimes so that when we begin, we can get our stuff done in the morning...and so my household is now dissolving into the same old stress and battleground it used to be.
I keep trying to figure out if there are more options that I'm not seeing. Maybe a compromise. If we didn't do school until after lunch, then my 11 yo would still be able to stay up pretty late (he likes to play Minecraft/skype at night). But that's another thing my ex is unhappy about. He doesn't think it's good for them to not have a bedtime and to be on the computer so much. He wants me to limit their time. I tried to talk to him about all they've learned and how much they enjoy it, but he basically just laughed in my face. He insinuates that I am a neglectful mother and that he wants to see me stick to this plan. He said, "I want to be able to talk to them and see that they're getting some smarts." ??? What the heck does that mean? That they can memorize???
I find myself feeling that I want to swing the pendulum back...to no video games/computer/tv at all...because trying to find the middle and enforce limits is exhausting!!! I hate it!!!
Please help me figure this out.
Thanks,
Kristie
We have been deschooling for a while now. You may or may not remember that I have six children, ages 14 - 2, and that I have recently divorced my alcoholic husband. Many of you suggested that our deschooling would simply look like vacation and that is pretty much what we've done. In many ways it has been great and I see improvements in our relationships and more joy in our home.
My ex-husband is not on board with unschooling. He has been putting pressure on me to come up with a plan for their school this year, so I tried to put together something as loose as possible, but it is not unschooling. It's minimal...but it still requires us to get certain things done each day. I've started to try and start shifting everyone towards bedtimes so that when we begin, we can get our stuff done in the morning...and so my household is now dissolving into the same old stress and battleground it used to be.
I keep trying to figure out if there are more options that I'm not seeing. Maybe a compromise. If we didn't do school until after lunch, then my 11 yo would still be able to stay up pretty late (he likes to play Minecraft/skype at night). But that's another thing my ex is unhappy about. He doesn't think it's good for them to not have a bedtime and to be on the computer so much. He wants me to limit their time. I tried to talk to him about all they've learned and how much they enjoy it, but he basically just laughed in my face. He insinuates that I am a neglectful mother and that he wants to see me stick to this plan. He said, "I want to be able to talk to them and see that they're getting some smarts." ??? What the heck does that mean? That they can memorize???
I find myself feeling that I want to swing the pendulum back...to no video games/computer/tv at all...because trying to find the middle and enforce limits is exhausting!!! I hate it!!!
Please help me figure this out.
Thanks,
Kristie
lindaguitar
Kristie,
What kind of custody arrangement do you have with your ex?
What kind of plan is he demanding? Did he specifically stipulate that this plan must include daily written assignments? Are you at risk of losing custody if he rejects a plan that suits the needs and learning styles of your kids, which might not include any tangible proof of "schooling" (i.e., written work)?
Unless he is specifically checking that written assignments have been completed, as public school teachers do, and has a judge backing up this sort of demand, learning does not have to look like school at all, and does not have to follow a schedule that conflicts with the kids' own natural schedules. Learning happens through conversations, games, going places, collecting things, exploring nature, watching TV and other electronic media, reading and being read to, listening to and playing music, cooking and gardening and helping around the house, and pretty much everything the kids do. Everything the kids learn can be put into school-ish categories, if you must.
If you can make some notes about what your kids have done each day or week, you will probably be able to retroactively list their activities in school-subject categories. Keeping a journal of what they have done and what kinds of conversations you've had with them should be enough to show that you're following some kind of educational plan. It's usually just a matter of being mindful of little things that might otherwise have gone unnoticed (like when one of the children asks how to spell a word or what a word means, or notices a bird outside and you tell him what kind of bird it is, or showing the kids state quarters and collecting them in a folder with a map of the U.S., or playing with a talking globe or puzzle-map or magnets, or putting together a model of a dinosaur skeleton, or you and the kids catching a news headline together, or measuring with fractions to follow a recipe ... etc).
Photos of the kids doing "educational" things (like visiting a museum, going to the library, reading or being read to, spelling out words with alphabet magnets, watching science and nature shows, looking at a bug through a magnifying glass, etc) are also good for record-keeping and "proof" of their education. What you may have to "prove" to your ex-husband, for whatever reason, is not likely to exceed what you have to "prove" to the state, to comply with whatever homeschool laws your state may have. And in most states, journals and photo/video collections are usually enough for that.
Also, I would think that he wouldn't need to know everything that goes on in your home, in terms of bedtimes or "schoolwork" or video game playing. You can run your household the way you see fit, and he can run his household the way he sees fit. You can allow the children to learn the things they choose to learn, in the ways that work for them, and he can drill them on trivia facts of his choice, as if they were preparing to be contestants on Jeopardy. You just need to let the kids know that their father's insistence that they must know a, b, or c does not invalidate the fact that they have learned x, y, or z on their own, in fun ways.
Linda
What kind of custody arrangement do you have with your ex?
What kind of plan is he demanding? Did he specifically stipulate that this plan must include daily written assignments? Are you at risk of losing custody if he rejects a plan that suits the needs and learning styles of your kids, which might not include any tangible proof of "schooling" (i.e., written work)?
Unless he is specifically checking that written assignments have been completed, as public school teachers do, and has a judge backing up this sort of demand, learning does not have to look like school at all, and does not have to follow a schedule that conflicts with the kids' own natural schedules. Learning happens through conversations, games, going places, collecting things, exploring nature, watching TV and other electronic media, reading and being read to, listening to and playing music, cooking and gardening and helping around the house, and pretty much everything the kids do. Everything the kids learn can be put into school-ish categories, if you must.
If you can make some notes about what your kids have done each day or week, you will probably be able to retroactively list their activities in school-subject categories. Keeping a journal of what they have done and what kinds of conversations you've had with them should be enough to show that you're following some kind of educational plan. It's usually just a matter of being mindful of little things that might otherwise have gone unnoticed (like when one of the children asks how to spell a word or what a word means, or notices a bird outside and you tell him what kind of bird it is, or showing the kids state quarters and collecting them in a folder with a map of the U.S., or playing with a talking globe or puzzle-map or magnets, or putting together a model of a dinosaur skeleton, or you and the kids catching a news headline together, or measuring with fractions to follow a recipe ... etc).
Photos of the kids doing "educational" things (like visiting a museum, going to the library, reading or being read to, spelling out words with alphabet magnets, watching science and nature shows, looking at a bug through a magnifying glass, etc) are also good for record-keeping and "proof" of their education. What you may have to "prove" to your ex-husband, for whatever reason, is not likely to exceed what you have to "prove" to the state, to comply with whatever homeschool laws your state may have. And in most states, journals and photo/video collections are usually enough for that.
Also, I would think that he wouldn't need to know everything that goes on in your home, in terms of bedtimes or "schoolwork" or video game playing. You can run your household the way you see fit, and he can run his household the way he sees fit. You can allow the children to learn the things they choose to learn, in the ways that work for them, and he can drill them on trivia facts of his choice, as if they were preparing to be contestants on Jeopardy. You just need to let the kids know that their father's insistence that they must know a, b, or c does not invalidate the fact that they have learned x, y, or z on their own, in fun ways.
Linda
Melissa Jones
I'm sorry that things are going this way for you.
I have to say, growing up with an addicted father, that he sounds like he is playing the blame game again. That's what addicts do best, other than drink or _____. I don't have anything more to give, but to help you recognize that fact. Is he actively drinking? Can you carry on a conversation with him? It sounds like he is not coherent, though to you it stings because you feel there is an ounce of truth. Just guessing based on your remarks. I'm sure you know, it can take a looong while for the constant barrage of blame to cease, and that only happens when they want it to. And at that, it is a constant up-hill battle. To me, and others on the list may differ, it sounds like while you may or may not be able to get him help, you should concider, if you haven't already, changing the way you let him control you. Certain things can be done to give you some mental peace. There are some great books and sites out there. Al-Anon meetings. I'm happy to email them to you directly if you don't know of them. Addictions tremendously and subtly effect everything that involves him in some way. With a divorce, it makes it even trickier...
This is a really hard place to navigate though. My heart goes out to you. I'm sure you will get some excellent advice.
Melissa in AL
I have to say, growing up with an addicted father, that he sounds like he is playing the blame game again. That's what addicts do best, other than drink or _____. I don't have anything more to give, but to help you recognize that fact. Is he actively drinking? Can you carry on a conversation with him? It sounds like he is not coherent, though to you it stings because you feel there is an ounce of truth. Just guessing based on your remarks. I'm sure you know, it can take a looong while for the constant barrage of blame to cease, and that only happens when they want it to. And at that, it is a constant up-hill battle. To me, and others on the list may differ, it sounds like while you may or may not be able to get him help, you should concider, if you haven't already, changing the way you let him control you. Certain things can be done to give you some mental peace. There are some great books and sites out there. Al-Anon meetings. I'm happy to email them to you directly if you don't know of them. Addictions tremendously and subtly effect everything that involves him in some way. With a divorce, it makes it even trickier...
This is a really hard place to navigate though. My heart goes out to you. I'm sure you will get some excellent advice.
Melissa in AL
On Jul 30, 2012, at 3:06 PM, messy_boys wrote:
> I am really struggling with various things, and hoping for some input and experience from you all.
>
> We have been deschooling for a while now. You may or may not remember that I have six children, ages 14 - 2, and that I have recently divorced my alcoholic husband. Many of you suggested that our deschooling would simply look like vacation and that is pretty much what we've done. In many ways it has been great and I see improvements in our relationships and more joy in our home.
>
> My ex-husband is not on board with unschooling. He has been putting pressure on me to come up with a plan for their school this year, so I tried to put together something as loose as possible, but it is not unschooling. It's minimal...but it still requires us to get certain things done each day. I've started to try and start shifting everyone towards bedtimes so that when we begin, we can get our stuff done in the morning...and so my household is now dissolving into the same old stress and battleground it used to be.
>
> I keep trying to figure out if there are more options that I'm not seeing. Maybe a compromise. If we didn't do school until after lunch, then my 11 yo would still be able to stay up pretty late (he likes to play Minecraft/skype at night). But that's another thing my ex is unhappy about. He doesn't think it's good for them to not have a bedtime and to be on the computer so much. He wants me to limit their time. I tried to talk to him about all they've learned and how much they enjoy it, but he basically just laughed in my face. He insinuates that I am a neglectful mother and that he wants to see me stick to this plan. He said, "I want to be able to talk to them and see that they're getting some smarts." ??? What the heck does that mean? That they can memorize???
>
> I find myself feeling that I want to swing the pendulum back...to no video games/computer/tv at all...because trying to find the middle and enforce limits is exhausting!!! I hate it!!!
>
> Please help me figure this out.
>
> Thanks,
> Kristie
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Debra Rossing
> and he can drill them on trivia facts of his choice, as if they were preparing to be contestants on JeopardyHad to LOL slightly at this Jeopardy reference for several reasons. I grew up watching Jeopardy (the original old school version with Art James - I think that was his name). So, when I got married, I'd settle in to watch Jeopardy in the evenings. DH gradually got drawn into it, simply by being in the same room (ditto for crossword puzzles but that's a whole other topic lol). When he chose to start college, he took the whole lot of CLEP exams - and came out saying "that was a lot like playing Jeopardy - especially the fine arts and history." Fast forward to now - I still like to watch Jeopardy when I can and now both DH and DS (who is now 14) watch along with me. Sometimes DS will ask me to not say the answer out loud until he has a chance first - and he's gradually getting some of the answers simply by watching more Jeopardy (and discussing interesting answers and categories). And sometimes he's okay with me answering and then laughs at how I know some of the weirdest bits LOL
--Deb R
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messy_boys
--- In [email protected], "lindaguitar" <lindaguitar@...> wrote:
This is after he has NEVER had any interest or part in their education for the last nine years of homeschooling. He is all about power and being in control and I think this is just a part of that.
No, I do not believe I am in any danger of losing custody, however I feel like I should try to compromise since he is still their father.
The plan I came up with was very loose. The two older boys were to be doing an online math program (Monarch) at their levels, whatever those may be. I do not plan on pushing them to 'catch up' or anything like that. Just doing a lesson a day to appease their dad, which should only take 15-30 minutes tops.
For Science/History I was planning on us all to sit down together in the living room, snuggle-style, and let the kids pick a topic out of the Kingfisher Science or Kingfisher History Encyclopedias. Just reading on that for five minutes or so.
For Writing/Spelling/Handwriting, I had purchased an inexpensive simple workbook for each. I thought I would have them spend no more than 15 minutes a day practicing in those or maybe copying a sentence from a favorite book or magazine.
That's about it, other than practicing their names, phone number, etc, since that's what they are quizzed on most by family and my ex.
Trying to keep it low pressure and still give them lots of time for themselves and their interests!!!
He wasn't happy with this plan because he said it was too "vague." But I stood my ground on it being enough. I do plan to keep a daily log of our happenings, just as I would for the state, so IF any trouble comes up, I will have the records I need.
But even this little bit has me stressed out just thinking about it, and I'm feeling like I have to get "order" in the house by going back to bedtimes, etc., so we can make sure to get this done every day.
There's so much on my plate...being a single homeschooling mom of six, working a part-time job, and trying to start my own business, too.
Maybe it is really more about me being organized and structured, not them. ???
Kristie
>>> What kind of custody arrangement do you have with your ex?<<<I have sole physical custody, but we have joint legal custody.
>>> What kind of plan is he demanding?<<<He wants an outline showing that we will be doing structured daily work and moving towards the goal of having them prepared for college. He feels they should be on 'grade level' and that we should follow the public school's scope and sequence.
This is after he has NEVER had any interest or part in their education for the last nine years of homeschooling. He is all about power and being in control and I think this is just a part of that.
No, I do not believe I am in any danger of losing custody, however I feel like I should try to compromise since he is still their father.
The plan I came up with was very loose. The two older boys were to be doing an online math program (Monarch) at their levels, whatever those may be. I do not plan on pushing them to 'catch up' or anything like that. Just doing a lesson a day to appease their dad, which should only take 15-30 minutes tops.
For Science/History I was planning on us all to sit down together in the living room, snuggle-style, and let the kids pick a topic out of the Kingfisher Science or Kingfisher History Encyclopedias. Just reading on that for five minutes or so.
For Writing/Spelling/Handwriting, I had purchased an inexpensive simple workbook for each. I thought I would have them spend no more than 15 minutes a day practicing in those or maybe copying a sentence from a favorite book or magazine.
That's about it, other than practicing their names, phone number, etc, since that's what they are quizzed on most by family and my ex.
Trying to keep it low pressure and still give them lots of time for themselves and their interests!!!
He wasn't happy with this plan because he said it was too "vague." But I stood my ground on it being enough. I do plan to keep a daily log of our happenings, just as I would for the state, so IF any trouble comes up, I will have the records I need.
But even this little bit has me stressed out just thinking about it, and I'm feeling like I have to get "order" in the house by going back to bedtimes, etc., so we can make sure to get this done every day.
There's so much on my plate...being a single homeschooling mom of six, working a part-time job, and trying to start my own business, too.
Maybe it is really more about me being organized and structured, not them. ???
>>> Also, I would think that he wouldn't need to know everything that goes on in your home, in terms of bedtimes or "schoolwork" or video game playing. You can run your household the way you see fit, and he can run his household the way he sees fit.<<<This is really where my problem lies...I let him still manipulate me too much. He is not a reasonable person (he is actively drinking) and we are divorced. I need to live my life and let him worry about himself.
Kristie
messy_boys
--- In [email protected], Melissa Jones <momnerd@...> wrote:
Thanks for your support!
Kristie
>>>he sounds like he is playing the blame game again.<<<Yes, he is all about continually pointing out my faults and shortcomings...real or imagined. It is tiring, even though I am not around it much anymore.
>>>Can you carry on a conversation with him? It sounds like he is not coherent, though to you it stings because you feel there is an ounce of truth.<<<No, I cannot carry a conversation with him because he is still actively drinking and most of what he says does not make sense. I have learned (from AL-Anon and private counseling) that these remarks/criticism are not true, and it's like I know that in my head, but yes, it does still hurt me. I tend to always feel like I need to do more, and he knows that and plays on that. It is something I am working on in myself.
>>>you should consider, if you haven't already, changing the way you let him control you. Certain things can be done to give you some mental peace.<<<Thank you...I am slowly but surely setting up some boundaries with him. He is such a strong personality and I do not like conflict, it is often hard, but I continue to get better, happier, and healthier.
Thanks for your support!
Kristie
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 31, 2012, at 2:57 PM, messy_boys wrote:
What you're going through isn't that unusual for spouses of alcoholics. You can probably find the tools there to help you respond to his manipulations so you don't have to reinvent them.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I let him still manipulate me too much. He is not a reasonable person (he is activelyHave you been to any Al-Anon meetings or visited their site? Read their literature?
> drinking) and we are divorced. I need to live my life and let him worry about himself.
What you're going through isn't that unusual for spouses of alcoholics. You can probably find the tools there to help you respond to his manipulations so you don't have to reinvent them.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lovejoy
I think that, while it's wonderful to NOT to be answerable the state, it *can* be very helpful (especially with divorce or difficult grandparents) when you do have to keep track of a child's learning.
In SC we have to document "subjects covered and activities engaged in." While NOT having to is great, when you DO have to, you really get to see what's happening and can share it. I think it's a great idea too for new-to-unschoolers who think the kids aren't learning anything.
In SC you can choose to use a daytimer, a teacher's logbook, the free download "Homeschool Tracker,' or even a blog to document. If I had a spouse or concerned grandparents I wanted to share with, I'd use a blog---and I often suggest that SC homeschoolers use a blog as their documentation. Just write down daily/weekly what's being learned, where you go, what you do, conversations you have, people you meet. If a child writes a poem, include it. Photos are wonderful. "Field trips." Living histories, science centers, museums, zoos. Kitchen experiments, baking/cooking. Just Document It.
If it would make an ex-spouse feel better, use some educationese to explain what's happening already.
You could also give him a curriculum: http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum Just insert *your* child's name and revise the locations/activities to suit your area/life. It can also give you some ideas for a rainy day.
Dads and grands don't always get it. Help them in a way they're familiar with.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
-----Original Message-----
From: messy_boys <messy_boys@...>
My ex-husband is not on board with unschooling. He has been putting pressure on
me to come up with a plan for their school this year, so I tried to put together
something as loose as possible, but it is not unschooling. It's minimal...but
it still requires us to get certain things done each day. I've started to try
and start shifting everyone towards bedtimes so that when we begin, we can get
our stuff done in the morning...and so my household is now dissolving into the
same old stress and battleground it used to be.
I keep trying to figure out if there are more options that I'm not seeing.
Maybe a compromise. If we didn't do school until after lunch, then my 11 yo
would still be able to stay up pretty late (he likes to play Minecraft/skype at
night). But that's another thing my ex is unhappy about. He doesn't think it's
good for them to not have a bedtime and to be on the computer so much. He wants
me to limit their time. I tried to talk to him about all they've learned and
how much they enjoy it, but he basically just laughed in my face. He insinuates
that I am a neglectful mother and that he wants to see me stick to this plan.
He said, "I want to be able to talk to them and see that they're getting some
smarts." ??? What the heck does that mean? That they can memorize???
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In SC we have to document "subjects covered and activities engaged in." While NOT having to is great, when you DO have to, you really get to see what's happening and can share it. I think it's a great idea too for new-to-unschoolers who think the kids aren't learning anything.
In SC you can choose to use a daytimer, a teacher's logbook, the free download "Homeschool Tracker,' or even a blog to document. If I had a spouse or concerned grandparents I wanted to share with, I'd use a blog---and I often suggest that SC homeschoolers use a blog as their documentation. Just write down daily/weekly what's being learned, where you go, what you do, conversations you have, people you meet. If a child writes a poem, include it. Photos are wonderful. "Field trips." Living histories, science centers, museums, zoos. Kitchen experiments, baking/cooking. Just Document It.
If it would make an ex-spouse feel better, use some educationese to explain what's happening already.
You could also give him a curriculum: http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum Just insert *your* child's name and revise the locations/activities to suit your area/life. It can also give you some ideas for a rainy day.
Dads and grands don't always get it. Help them in a way they're familiar with.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
-----Original Message-----
From: messy_boys <messy_boys@...>
My ex-husband is not on board with unschooling. He has been putting pressure on
me to come up with a plan for their school this year, so I tried to put together
something as loose as possible, but it is not unschooling. It's minimal...but
it still requires us to get certain things done each day. I've started to try
and start shifting everyone towards bedtimes so that when we begin, we can get
our stuff done in the morning...and so my household is now dissolving into the
same old stress and battleground it used to be.
I keep trying to figure out if there are more options that I'm not seeing.
Maybe a compromise. If we didn't do school until after lunch, then my 11 yo
would still be able to stay up pretty late (he likes to play Minecraft/skype at
night). But that's another thing my ex is unhappy about. He doesn't think it's
good for them to not have a bedtime and to be on the computer so much. He wants
me to limit their time. I tried to talk to him about all they've learned and
how much they enjoy it, but he basically just laughed in my face. He insinuates
that I am a neglectful mother and that he wants to see me stick to this plan.
He said, "I want to be able to talk to them and see that they're getting some
smarts." ??? What the heck does that mean? That they can memorize???
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
messy_boys
Thanks, Joyce...yes, I have been in Al-Anon for 4 years now. It's a life-saver for me. I don't know how I would have kept my sanity otherwise.
Kristie
Kristie
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>>> Have you been to any Al-Anon meetings or visited their site? Read their literature?<<<
messy_boys
--- In [email protected], Kelly Lovejoy <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
Kristie
>>> I think that, while it's wonderful to NOT to be answerable the state, it *can* be very helpful (especially with divorce or difficult grandparents) when you do have to keep track of a child's learning.<<<We live in OK where there is not much, if any, requirements on homeschoolers. I have never kept records before.
Kristie