Clare

Hi, I'm completely new to unschooling, but have been devouring sites like Sandra Dodd's and Joyfully Rejoicing. I don't really know any unschoolers in real life (I know lots of home educators, but they are nearly all Christian/Classical/Charlotte Mason - we are Christians too) so I'm having a hard time picturing what it actually looks like in practice.

I was wondering if I gave an example of my morning, which unfortunately seemed particularly coercive, whether anyone would be kind enough to give me an idea of what the alternative might look like. (I guess this is more a parenting question than an education one, if that makes sense.)

We needed to all get out somewhere as a family for 10am. Pretty near that time I had to wrestle my daughter (2) away from her game with my son (6 - the eldest) in order to change a dirty nappy - she had come to tell me about it but then ran off again. DS was still not dressed and still trying to play with DD while I was changing her, so I shouted at him :-( and he got cross and upset (but did go and get dressed). I was chivvying all three of them (my other daughter is 4) with socks and shoes and running off etc etc - it was just a very rushed and stressful morning.

Reading that back it seems obvious that there is a lot more I could have done myself to ease the situation - got up earlier, been more prepared so I was not stressed and shouty, explained to them the night before about getting ready earlier. Is that what it's about, or is that just the way it is with getting small children somewhere on time? When we don't have to go anywhere our days are lovely, but getting out of the house early(ish) is a huge stumbling block for me.

(We were also trialling a "relaxed" bedtime the night before, which was lovely and unstressful, but then everyone slept in, lol!)

Thank you for reading - sorry it's so long!

Meredith

"Clare" <cmccaughren@...> wrote:
>> > Reading that back it seems obvious that there is a lot more I could have done myself to ease the situation - got up earlier, been more prepared so I was not stressed and shouty, explained to them the night before about getting ready earlier. Is that what it's about, or is that just the way it is with getting small children somewhere on time?
*************

Planning ahead makes a difference, for sure. Whether or not you decide unschooling is right for your family, learning to think and plan ahead better will help! And a significant part of the work of an unschooling parent involves being thoughtful and proactive to turn issues into non-issues. It's amazing how many "discipline" problems dissolve when you parenting pro-actively rather than re-actively.

Part of being thoughtful and proactive, though, involves remembering what you know about little kids in general and your own kids in particular. Getting three little kids out the door Isn't a quick and easy process! If you keep that in mind - just that one little fact - you're likely to be less stressed because you haven't set yourself up with unrealistic expectations. So Plan for getting out the door to take some time and effort. That may mean getting things done the night before, or earlier in the morning.

Load up the car with whatever car toys, snacks, diaper bag, and extra clothes and shoes. Doing that beforehand means you can relax about kids getting dressed and eating to an extent, because you have another option already available - and snacks and toys in the car can be a source of motivation for little kids, too.

It can also help to sweeten the deal when you need to run errands. No-one likes being stuck running someone else's errands - what a bore! So build in something fun or interesting for the kids, too. That also helps get people out the door - they have a reason to want to go.

> (We were also trialling a "relaxed" bedtime the night before, which was lovely and unstressful, but then everyone slept in, lol!)
************

Plan for that, next time ;)

Something that helps a whole lot with parenting in general and unschooling in particular, is learning to be more adaptable. It's kind of odd that adaptability isn't really promoted as a good parenting value, but kids change and situations change so what works well in one instance may not work so well with a different child, or a different time of day, or different location. It's a good idea to step away from looking for single perfect solutions, as a parent, and instead build up a set of skills and options which lets you adapt to a variety of circumstances thoughtfully.

---Meredith

Clare

"And a significant part of the work of an unschooling parent involves being thoughtful and proactive to turn issues into non-issues. It's amazing how many "discipline" problems dissolve when you parenting pro-actively rather than re-actively."

***********

Thank you for your response. I'm getting an idea of how much "work" unschooling is, lol! Not that it's putting me off - I love the idea of parenting in a way that shows you trust and respect your children, believe them to be people capable of good things (but perhaps without the tools to always get there just yet). But a real "thinking love", working out solutions that meet needs, rather than react to actions and outbursts... Wow. It IS easier to have check boxes, if they do x, you do y, but actually it's not easier because it leads to a lot of confrontation and battles (at least it does in our house!). We are battling over bedtimes (with the 4yo), food (with the 2yo), school (with the 6yo)... It was a 5 minute maths lesson on Monday that ended with us both in tears that led me here! 

And then as soon as you start looking into unschooling as an educational philosophy, you find out about it as a complete way of life, and your whole thinking starts to change, and you wonder if there really is a better way than everything you thought you knew... (but if so, why is it seen as so radical? Why isn't everyone doing it?)

Thanks for bearing with me as I work out my thoughts on this...

[email protected]

Because it's kind of scary. It's different from what most of us have ever been taught. Different from how we were raised. And nobody you know personally is doing it.

OTOH, you can have a difficult day the old way or a "challenging" :) day as an unschooler. Either way you slice it, you are going to be tired by the end of any day with three children, 2, 4 and 6 years old.

So why not be tired from having done positive, loving, kind things that took a lot of thought and effort but made everyone's day a bit nicer if not perfect instead of being tired from fussing at the kids all day to do things in a way that is unpleasant for everyone?

And you may find that, from the outside, your days don't even look all that different. You'll still read together, you'll still want to make those appointments later in the day, you'll still eat, you'll still have endless messes and laundry and toys and projects everywhere, you'll still go for fun walks in the park, you'll still watch TV or take baths or bake cookies. If a stranger walked in, they would see a family having fun together, getting over the not-so-fun bits in the best way they can, growing and learning and loving each other.

There will be books around. And paints. And videos and games and all the rest of it. Blocks and legos and cars and trucks and everything all tumbled together with a big helping of doing things on your own timetable, with kindness toward each other.

It may look just like any other homeschooler's house, to the unsuspecting. :) You may be doing the same or similar things. But the thinking behind it all is different. Your 6-year-old may be building a lego castle because he wants to, not because some curriculum said he should. Your children may love cuddling up with a teddy bear and Mom reading a good book to them because they like stories, not because it was prescribed. Swimming is not to satisfy the PE credit but because it's hot and they enjoy it. Baking isn't to sneak in some math but because everyone likes brownies.

From the outside -- "my, isn't she creative, working all those "lessons" into fun activities for the children." In your actual life -- "damn, I'm having fun with my kids and thank goodness it's my bedtime because I'm exhausted." :)

Enjoy!

Nance


--- In [email protected], "Clare" <cmccaughren@...> wrote:
>
> "And a significant part of the work of an unschooling parent involves being thoughtful and proactive to turn issues into non-issues. It's amazing how many "discipline" problems dissolve when you parenting pro-actively rather than re-actively."
>
> ***********
>
> Thank you for your response. I'm getting an idea of how much "work" unschooling is, lol! Not that it's putting me off - I love the idea of parenting in a way that shows you trust and respect your children, believe them to be people capable of good things (but perhaps without the tools to always get there just yet). But a real "thinking love", working out solutions that meet needs, rather than react to actions and outbursts... Wow. It IS easier to have check boxes, if they do x, you do y, but actually it's not easier because it leads to a lot of confrontation and battles (at least it does in our house!). We are battling over bedtimes (with the 4yo), food (with the 2yo), school (with the 6yo)... It was a 5 minute maths lesson on Monday that ended with us both in tears that led me here! 
>
> And then as soon as you start looking into unschooling as an educational philosophy, you find out about it as a complete way of life, and your whole thinking starts to change, and you wonder if there really is a better way than everything you thought you knew... (but if so, why is it seen as so radical? Why isn't everyone doing it?)
>
> Thanks for bearing with me as I work out my thoughts on this...
>

sharonmbliss

I can really relate to you, I have 3 children, 6 yr old boy, 4 yr old girl and almost 2 yr old daughter. I have been trying to yell less and be calm and happy more but it is a struggle. I've found not setting up many activities that start early (9:30 or 10 am) helps. It can be very freeing sometimes saying there is nothing I "have" to do but there are some choices that you may decide is worth it. I don't really have any unschooling friends either and there are lots of activities for kids my age at 10 am but it's just not worth it to go to many of them, I try to find some afternoon activities or better yet find a friend or 2 to invite here to play. When we do decide it's worth it to go to an early morning activity (like church) I often plan ahead and have what the kids and I will need ready early. I then pick out clothes and help them get dressed while they are still sleeping or still lying down. Then when we are ready to go, I might carry them to the car if they are still sleepy or if they're ready they'll go themselves and eat in the car and maybe brush teeth when we get somewhere. We are far from perfect and still trying to find the right path for each of us but I just wanted to say I understand and see if any of this might help.

Sharon

--- In [email protected], "Clare" <cmccaughren@...> wrote:
>
> "And a significant part of the work of an unschooling parent involves being thoughtful and proactive to turn issues into non-issues. It's amazing how many "discipline" problems dissolve when you parenting pro-actively rather than re-actively."
>
> ***********
>
> Thank you for your response. I'm getting an idea of how much "work" unschooling is, lol! Not that it's putting me off - I love the idea of parenting in a way that shows you trust and respect your children, believe them to be people capable of good things (but perhaps without the tools to always get there just yet). But a real "thinking love", working out solutions that meet needs, rather than react to actions and outbursts... Wow. It IS easier to have check boxes, if they do x, you do y, but actually it's not easier because it leads to a lot of confrontation and battles (at least it does in our house!). We are battling over bedtimes (with the 4yo), food (with the 2yo), school (with the 6yo)... It was a 5 minute maths lesson on Monday that ended with us both in tears that led me here! 
>
> And then as soon as you start looking into unschooling as an educational philosophy, you find out about it as a complete way of life, and your whole thinking starts to change, and you wonder if there really is a better way than everything you thought you knew... (but if so, why is it seen as so radical? Why isn't everyone doing it?)
>
> Thanks for bearing with me as I work out my thoughts on this...
>

Bun

--- In [email protected], "Clare" <cmccaughren@...> wrote:

> We needed to all get out somewhere as a family for 10am.
snip
> Reading that back it seems obvious that there is a lot more I could have done myself to ease the situation - got up earlier, been more prepared so I was not stressed and shouty, explained to them the night before about getting ready earlier. Is that what it's about, or is that just the way it is with getting small children somewhere on time? When we don't have to go anywhere our days are lovely, but getting out of the house early(ish) is a huge stumbling block for me.
>
> (We were also trialling a "relaxed" bedtime the night before, which was lovely and unstressful, but then everyone slept in, lol!)

We have varied ages in our house and because we tend to stay up late and sleep in late, I plan for outings and appointments later in the day, when there is more of a chance of everyone being fed and dressed and ready to go.

Sleep is SO important to me. If I get enough rest, I love getting things organized and ready before others are up. But if I am feeling like I need the rest, I prepare as much as I can the night before and sleep in too. ie. If I know I will need sandwiches made, I do them the evening before and have them ready to throw in a cooler in the morning. Changes of clothes can be ready in bags by the door or in the car. Breakfast can be eaten on the way sometimes. Or I can pick something up to eat on the road if it helps.

Because I can be late, I try to give myself room to show up places not at an exact time, but within a timeframe such as between 1pm and 1:30ish (usually that is fine with whoever we're meeting). And sometimes we go to park days where people show up whenever they want from x time to y time which is nice because I don't feel obligated to be there at any certain time and we know there will likely be others whenever we get there all coming and going at different times.

Something I sometimes think about is that I'd rather get to where we're going late and happy then rushing, upset and stressed.

If we're that late, then maybe it is better to reschedule and better prepare next time. Or maybe it is worth a call to the office/appointment to let them know you will be late and to see if it is alright to still come. If not, apologize, reschedule and better prepare next time.

Laurie

Bun

--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
> It can also help to sweeten the deal when you need to run errands. No-one likes being stuck running someone else's errands - what a bore! So build in something fun or interesting for the kids, too. That also helps get people out the door - they have a reason to want to go.
>

We do things the kids love when we go to appointments that are far away. The kids LOVE going to my younger son's dental appointments even though it is a long drive because they get to see their friends who live near the office afterward.

This week two of the kids have appointments that are also a long drive away. Afterward we usually go to the mall that has a carousel as we don't have a mall close to us and they love to go and browse or shop or sometimes we go to a children's museum or animal park. This week my husband is off and we are going to the amusement park, so they are Really excited.

Laurie

Clare

That's a beautiful picture you paint Nance, thank you. It helps to look at it like that. Those are pretty much our days at the moment, but add in me feeling guilty that I'm not making DS do enough "school". I'm beginning to realize a bit more what mindful parenting and unschooling involves, but what it doesn't involve is the pressure of keeping up with curriculum checklists or academic goals you have in mind, and I can imagine that feels amazing! Perhaps with the stress of everything I think I/we should be doing lifted, I'll have more energy to actually be with my kids!

Sharon, lol, we're the same! Thanks for the advice. I would love to know a bit more about where you are with the whole unschooling thing. Do you extend that to bedtimes, tv, food etc, and if so, what does that look like with kids our ages? Sorry if that's too nosy :-)

Bedtimes are the thing I'm concentrating on first, because that's where a lot of the shouting/conflict was. They've been settling around 10pm the last few nights (the 2yo a bit earlier), and I do think the atmosphere is kinder, calmer and more peaceful, which is lovely. Except I'm exhausted, lol! I guess it will take me longer to adapt to giving more and expending energy on working out what they really need, rather than how to get them to act in a way that is convenient for me (ie in bed by 8pm!). 

Clare

Meredith

"Bun" <alohabun@...> wrote:
>if I am feeling like I need the rest, I prepare as much as I can the night before and sleep in too. ie. If I know I will need sandwiches made, I do them the evening before and have them ready to throw in a cooler in the morning.
****************

I tend to turn into a zombie in the evenings if I'm tired, but I'm almost always fresh and perky first thing in the morning, so I'm more likely to plan the other way around and get up early. When my kids were little, I'd try to get things set up so that by evening I could run on auto-pilot. Zombies are very good at reading stories and *serving* snacks, but not so good at remembering how to make sandwiches ;)

Those are the sorts of differences you figure out along the way - sometimes by trial and error! The key is to see less than perfect times as useful information and go on learning.

---Meredith

Meredith

"Clare" <cmccaughren@...> wrote:
> I guess it will take me longer to adapt to giving more and expending energy on working out what they really need, rather than how to get them to act in a way that is convenient for me (ie in bed by 8pm!). 
*****************

Something that helped me a lot in this regard was to step back from the rightness of whatever solution I'd already chosen. For instance, if getting the kids to bed by 8 is a battle, that's not Really convenient - it's more like wishful thinking: if they'd just go to bed peaceably when you're tired, that would be sooooo nice. So step away from that "solution" and look for the goals and needs which inspired it. People need sleep and rest. Arguing about sleep isn't restful. So you and your kids work together to figure out how you're all going to get enough sleep and rest.

The catch is, "work together" looks very, very different with little kids than with older kids or other adults. Most of the "work" needs to be done by the adult - trying this and that and seeing what helps and what doesn't, building up a set of options which help everyone get what they need. But the kids are still an important part of the process - you're using their responses as information, seeing their behavior as communication rather than relying on them to tell you things with words. That was one of the biggest "aha!" moments for me, realizing that all the experimenting I was doing Was a kind of dialog - it just didn't involve many words.

By trying out different ideas and creating more options, you're bringing the kids into the problem-solving process. That's gold. You're giving them a chance to start learning about problem solving Now, by solving real life problems with them. Sometimes, working together, you and the kids will come up with Exactly The Same Solution that you had envisioned initially - that used to drive me nuts: four days of problem solving and we were back to my original idea! But now the solution made sense from the kids perspective, too, so they weren't resisting it. Other times - most of the time - you'll find there's no one perfect solution and that's a good thing! People change and situations change. It's reasonable and sensible to look at individual situations rather than making sweeping decisions, once and for all.

---Meredith

Clare

Thanks again everyone for your ideas and responses. Meredith, what you wrote was really helpful as a way of looking at it. I've had a few instances recently to put that kind of thinking into practice. Yesterday I had to help 6 children (age 8 and under) decide what DVD they wanted to watch. Instead of pronouncing my judgment on it as I probably would have done previously, I tried to list the options: it's A's turn to choose, but if B chooses then A can choose the next two, but then again C is a guest so maybe we should put him first etc etc. I felt exhausted by the end, like I was at a UN summit lol, but amazingly they all talked about it among themselves and came up with a solution. Of course they then watched it for about half an hour before running off and playing something else, but that's not the point! ;-) I think I can see how that kind of process works in terms of watching for cues and behavioural responses in little ones. Thank you :-)

Clare

--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> By trying out different ideas and creating more options, you're bringing the kids into the problem-solving process. That's gold.
>
> ---Meredith
>

[email protected]

And maybe next time, or the time after that :) , they will be able to sort things out on their own.

Nance

--- In [email protected], "Clare" <cmccaughren@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks again everyone for your ideas and responses. Meredith, what you wrote was really helpful as a way of looking at it. I've had a few instances recently to put that kind of thinking into practice. Yesterday I had to help 6 children (age 8 and under) decide what DVD they wanted to watch. Instead of pronouncing my judgment on it as I probably would have done previously, I tried to list the options: it's A's turn to choose, but if B chooses then A can choose the next two, but then again C is a guest so maybe we should put him first etc etc. I felt exhausted by the end, like I was at a UN summit lol, but amazingly they all talked about it among themselves and came up with a solution. Of course they then watched it for about half an hour before running off and playing something else, but that's not the point! ;-) I think I can see how that kind of process works in terms of watching for cues and behavioural responses in little ones. Thank you :-)
>
> Clare
>
> --- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@> wrote:
> >
> > By trying out different ideas and creating more options, you're bringing the kids into the problem-solving process. That's gold.
> >
> > ---Meredith
> >
>