Interactions with other people
Colienne de Walque
I said in another thread that I was lost regarding the interactions of our son Gilles, who is four years old, with young children. I realized it is more complex than that, I'll try to explain...
When I stopped working to stay
with him (he was in daycare from 7 to 16 months, something I highly regret) I was afraid
to feel alone and organized a mom-child group every two weeks at our home. But he usually asked to nurse soon after their arrival and we would go in our room for a while. Once he let me know (he wasn't talking yet) that he wanted to play upstairs with me. I then decided to stop the group.
At that time, we sometimes invited people or went to other houses. We couldn't pay as
much attention than before to other people because Gilles wanted us to
play/talk with him a lot but it was doable. About one year ago, it
became much more difficult.
It was not possible anymore to invite people with young children (I would say under 6 years old) at our house. He was scared when young children came near us in the street/stores, even if he was in our
arms. Now he is less scared but keep his distances : he will do weird sounds and
threatening looks to intimidate children who come too close. It makes me think about a little gorilla ;-) If we are talking about visiting a family with young children he says he doesn't want us to go. We know by experience that even if we try to make it easier for him (going to a place he likes on the way or offering to take toys with us) he won't enter the house once we arrive there.
We have
tried alternatives. Inviting friends in the evenings so they
would come without their children. It wasn't a good experience : our friends expected a calm meal between adults but we don't have arbitrary bedtimes and Gilles isn't exactly a quiet child. Asking my mother to stay with Gilles while we go to other houses. We did it once this year and it went very well, but the last time (we
had planned a restaurant for my husband's birthday) he began to cry when she arrived. I then suggested to first
take an apéritif together : he was thrilled and enjoyed it. But he cried again when I told him we would soon have to leave. We then decided to cancel the
restaurant and ordered meals.
We asked him if the would prefer another person than my mom, he answered no. Or if he would prefer to go at their house, he answered no. Or that we could meet friends at a playground or make a walk together, he answered no. Something that always work is my husband or I
seeing friends while the other stays at home with Gilles. Maybe there is an alternative we haven't thought of ?
Another thing is events where the three
of us are expected to come. There are a lot of gatherings organized by my husband's family. We don't go to his parents house often because he doesn't like to go there (they were very
controlling parents) but he is willing to go to some of the events organized
by his siblings to keep the link. We invented reasons to not go these last months when Gilles didn't want to but with the summer coming there will be even more things
organized.
I guess explaining them we won't come (or that my husband comes alone) because Gilles doesn't want to is not a good idea. They
already all think we over-protect Gilles and it's our fault if he is more
interested to play with us than with his cousins, or doesn't agree to sit on a sofa near them for a family picture, or doesn't eat anything at their house, or doesn't like to be kissed on the cheeks, or whatever doesn't meet their expectations. They think all would be better if he was in school like all the children they know. It's easier with my family : Gilles likes to visit my parents, my brother doesn't have
children and my sister's family currently live abroad !
To give a complete picture, I will add that Gilles talks all day long, to ask questions or to tell stories. He has a lot of imagination. He is curious about a ton of things. He smiles and laughs a lot. When we are out, he observes a lot. He needs time to warm up in places he doesn't know. If a
grown-up stranger asks him a question he will answer "Nothing !" if he doesn't have a good feeling but will begin to
chat if he has. He races the joggers in the street... and will hold my hand while running ! And when our new little neighbor, who is six, comes near the yard's wall, Gilles talks with him. I guess it is because he knows the wall will prevent the
neighbor to come too close.
Thank you for your reading,
Colienne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When I stopped working to stay
with him (he was in daycare from 7 to 16 months, something I highly regret) I was afraid
to feel alone and organized a mom-child group every two weeks at our home. But he usually asked to nurse soon after their arrival and we would go in our room for a while. Once he let me know (he wasn't talking yet) that he wanted to play upstairs with me. I then decided to stop the group.
At that time, we sometimes invited people or went to other houses. We couldn't pay as
much attention than before to other people because Gilles wanted us to
play/talk with him a lot but it was doable. About one year ago, it
became much more difficult.
It was not possible anymore to invite people with young children (I would say under 6 years old) at our house. He was scared when young children came near us in the street/stores, even if he was in our
arms. Now he is less scared but keep his distances : he will do weird sounds and
threatening looks to intimidate children who come too close. It makes me think about a little gorilla ;-) If we are talking about visiting a family with young children he says he doesn't want us to go. We know by experience that even if we try to make it easier for him (going to a place he likes on the way or offering to take toys with us) he won't enter the house once we arrive there.
We have
tried alternatives. Inviting friends in the evenings so they
would come without their children. It wasn't a good experience : our friends expected a calm meal between adults but we don't have arbitrary bedtimes and Gilles isn't exactly a quiet child. Asking my mother to stay with Gilles while we go to other houses. We did it once this year and it went very well, but the last time (we
had planned a restaurant for my husband's birthday) he began to cry when she arrived. I then suggested to first
take an apéritif together : he was thrilled and enjoyed it. But he cried again when I told him we would soon have to leave. We then decided to cancel the
restaurant and ordered meals.
We asked him if the would prefer another person than my mom, he answered no. Or if he would prefer to go at their house, he answered no. Or that we could meet friends at a playground or make a walk together, he answered no. Something that always work is my husband or I
seeing friends while the other stays at home with Gilles. Maybe there is an alternative we haven't thought of ?
Another thing is events where the three
of us are expected to come. There are a lot of gatherings organized by my husband's family. We don't go to his parents house often because he doesn't like to go there (they were very
controlling parents) but he is willing to go to some of the events organized
by his siblings to keep the link. We invented reasons to not go these last months when Gilles didn't want to but with the summer coming there will be even more things
organized.
I guess explaining them we won't come (or that my husband comes alone) because Gilles doesn't want to is not a good idea. They
already all think we over-protect Gilles and it's our fault if he is more
interested to play with us than with his cousins, or doesn't agree to sit on a sofa near them for a family picture, or doesn't eat anything at their house, or doesn't like to be kissed on the cheeks, or whatever doesn't meet their expectations. They think all would be better if he was in school like all the children they know. It's easier with my family : Gilles likes to visit my parents, my brother doesn't have
children and my sister's family currently live abroad !
To give a complete picture, I will add that Gilles talks all day long, to ask questions or to tell stories. He has a lot of imagination. He is curious about a ton of things. He smiles and laughs a lot. When we are out, he observes a lot. He needs time to warm up in places he doesn't know. If a
grown-up stranger asks him a question he will answer "Nothing !" if he doesn't have a good feeling but will begin to
chat if he has. He races the joggers in the street... and will hold my hand while running ! And when our new little neighbor, who is six, comes near the yard's wall, Gilles talks with him. I guess it is because he knows the wall will prevent the
neighbor to come too close.
Thank you for your reading,
Colienne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rinelle
He sounds a lot like my daughter. She didn't like to play with other kids
when she was younger. I went to a lot of playgroups and sat and played with
her while the other kids ran around and played together! So after a while,
I stopped going to playgroups. Then around 5, she suddenly wanted friends,
and she's been fine with them ever since. She still goes through stages
(couple of months at a time) where she would rather stay home and play with
us, but if it helps, she has no problems relating to kids her own age, or
younger or older.
For her, I think the problem was that kids were so unpredictable. They run
fast, they bump into you, you could get hurt! For her, it was easier to
avoid the other kids than to risk the bumps that went along with playing.
Once kids became slower and more predictable, she coped much better.
Tamara
when she was younger. I went to a lot of playgroups and sat and played with
her while the other kids ran around and played together! So after a while,
I stopped going to playgroups. Then around 5, she suddenly wanted friends,
and she's been fine with them ever since. She still goes through stages
(couple of months at a time) where she would rather stay home and play with
us, but if it helps, she has no problems relating to kids her own age, or
younger or older.
For her, I think the problem was that kids were so unpredictable. They run
fast, they bump into you, you could get hurt! For her, it was easier to
avoid the other kids than to risk the bumps that went along with playing.
Once kids became slower and more predictable, she coped much better.
Tamara
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 4, 2012, at 8:06 PM, Colienne de Walque wrote:
He is who he is right now which is someone who is uncomfortable with little kids -- they *are* unpredictable. And comfortable with only certain people. It's part of his development. He'll be different next year. You can't change him. But you can make life more comfortable or more uncomfortable for him.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I guess explaining them we won't come (or that my husband comes alone)Can you arrange to be elsewhere when family gatherings come up?
> because Gilles doesn't want to is not a good idea.
He is who he is right now which is someone who is uncomfortable with little kids -- they *are* unpredictable. And comfortable with only certain people. It's part of his development. He'll be different next year. You can't change him. But you can make life more comfortable or more uncomfortable for him.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Colienne de Walque
>> Can you arrange to be elsewhere when family gatherings come up?*************
Do you mean doing an overnight trip or something ? When we talked some weeks ago to spend some days in a child-friendly hotel to relax together, Gilles didn't want to. We thought it was because he was afraid not to have his foods so we explained we could choose a bungalow formula and bring them. We showed him pictures on the website : he was thrilled by the swimming pool and the indoors playground. But when we mentioned we would also sleep there, he said he didn't want to sleep out of home.
Plus there are family gatherings every 2-3 weeks. Belgium is a small country (3 hours to go from one end to another by car) and my husband's parents and siblings all live within 30 minutes distance. My husband questioned the way he was parented (as I said they were very controlling parents, just to give an example they would turn off the fuses to be sure he wasn't reading in his room after a given hour) but his siblings didn't. They seem happy to hang out with their parents and see my husband as the bad guy who isn't grateful for all his parents did for him.
There are already three events planned for the period mid-May mid-June : a baptism and two birthdays. What we usually do when Gilles doesn't want to go (8 times out of 10) is telling them we already planned something. But they complain they would like see us more often, that family relationships are important. My husband's mother told once she would need a lawyer to see his grandson. I know she will never do that because keeping appearances intact is very important for them, but still... it crossed her mind.
Colienne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
It seems to me that there are two different issues - he doesn't enjoy the company of other children (some kids don't) and that he really wants to be with his parents.
Kids don't always like to play with other kids! Wait, step back a bit, he's 3? Children under 3 frequently don't even play with other kids - your best case is for them to play Alongside other kids without fighting. Between 3 and 4 kids (in general) start to be able to socialize, but even then, many don't really like to socialize with other children - and even those who do often prefer older kids or younger kids. The absolute hardest social dynamics for kids to navigate occur when you get kids together who are close in age - when there's a big age gap the dynamics are easier. Ray liked other kids, but had a really hard time playing with them for years. Mo has a few friends close in age, but has only recently started to enjoy playing in groups of kids... and then only if the setting and most of the kids are familiar to her. She's 10.
School can be really, really hard for kids who aren't kid-people because they're stuck in the most stressful environment imaginable with Only kids their own age.
You've probably exacerbated the trouble by all your efforts to get your little guy into social situation - not your fault, you've been surrounded by the same old assumptions that kids need to socialize with other kids.
At the same time, little kids often need a lot of time with parents and some are naturally averse to strangers. That's a basic, protective instinct on their part. Putting him in daycare - which you probably couldn't avoid at the time, I get that! - may have set him up to be really anxious and unhappy at the thought of you leaving him for any length of time. That's something he'll eventually grow out of without being pushed, but for him to grow out of it (and not... traumatized into numb acceptance) he needs you to support him and be there for him - literally "there" where he is, not trying to get away and do grown-up things without him. If he's okay being with dad, too, that's a bonus, but it's really common for kids to prefer mom to dad until their older.
Yeah, explaining tends not to work very well. Find other places to be and things to do so you can say "we have another engagement" if you want to be nice about it, or simply let the hostess know "we won't be able to make it" with no explanation.
---Meredith
Kids don't always like to play with other kids! Wait, step back a bit, he's 3? Children under 3 frequently don't even play with other kids - your best case is for them to play Alongside other kids without fighting. Between 3 and 4 kids (in general) start to be able to socialize, but even then, many don't really like to socialize with other children - and even those who do often prefer older kids or younger kids. The absolute hardest social dynamics for kids to navigate occur when you get kids together who are close in age - when there's a big age gap the dynamics are easier. Ray liked other kids, but had a really hard time playing with them for years. Mo has a few friends close in age, but has only recently started to enjoy playing in groups of kids... and then only if the setting and most of the kids are familiar to her. She's 10.
School can be really, really hard for kids who aren't kid-people because they're stuck in the most stressful environment imaginable with Only kids their own age.
You've probably exacerbated the trouble by all your efforts to get your little guy into social situation - not your fault, you've been surrounded by the same old assumptions that kids need to socialize with other kids.
At the same time, little kids often need a lot of time with parents and some are naturally averse to strangers. That's a basic, protective instinct on their part. Putting him in daycare - which you probably couldn't avoid at the time, I get that! - may have set him up to be really anxious and unhappy at the thought of you leaving him for any length of time. That's something he'll eventually grow out of without being pushed, but for him to grow out of it (and not... traumatized into numb acceptance) he needs you to support him and be there for him - literally "there" where he is, not trying to get away and do grown-up things without him. If he's okay being with dad, too, that's a bonus, but it's really common for kids to prefer mom to dad until their older.
> I guess explaining them we won't come (or that my husband comes alone) because Gilles doesn't want to is not a good idea. They*****************
> already all think we over-protect Gilles and it's our fault
Yeah, explaining tends not to work very well. Find other places to be and things to do so you can say "we have another engagement" if you want to be nice about it, or simply let the hostess know "we won't be able to make it" with no explanation.
---Meredith
[email protected]
There is a certain skill in saying no to an invitation without overexplaining or feeling guilty or being made to feel guilty. But once you get the hang of it, you can just say no. "No, thanks." That's all that anyone is owed. Parents or relatives or not. You and your husband have to decide what is best for your family unit and the extended family and friends will just have to get used to it. Or not. But that is their problem. Yours is having a happy household of three. Do as you please and make no apologies. Just say no, thanks. "No. No, really, thanks." Change the subject and keep saying no when the pushy relative asks again and change the subject again and leave or hang up.
Nance
Nance
--- In [email protected], Colienne de Walque <colienne.dewalque@...> wrote:
>
> I said in another thread that I was lost regarding the interactions of our son Gilles, who is four years old, with young children. I realized it is more complex than that, I'll try to explain...
>
Cornelia
This may be a bit redundant given Meredith's post, but in case it is helpful, I do remember first reading the idea in Naomi Aldort's book 'Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves', that putting children together in groups, especially all similarly aged, is a completely arbitrary and fabricated situation. But it has lead to a belief that children *should* want to socialize that way. The idea of putting children of the same age together I think developed out of convenience, and has been translated into a belief. As far as I understand it. That's not to say that it may not suit some kids, of course. But it has become an assumption (and a *should*). Or at least it had in my mind.
It helped me to read that in Naomi Aldort's book, and then once my anxieties were answered, I could focus on practicalities. Like navigating turning down playdates etc.
Cornelia
It helped me to read that in Naomi Aldort's book, and then once my anxieties were answered, I could focus on practicalities. Like navigating turning down playdates etc.
Cornelia
Colienne de Walque
>> Wait, step back a bit, he's 3?*************
He is four.
>> You've probably exacerbated the trouble by all your efforts to get yourlittle guy into social situation...
*************
I was ready to say that after these 4 or 5 meetings of the child-mom
group we stopped activities with other children, but it is not true ! I
remember now we went to a sport group and a musical group...
and Gilles always stayed away from other children. It lasted one year,
and then we really stopped social activities. When he was 2,5 years old.
>> Putting him in daycare - which you probably couldn't avoid at the time...*************
We could have. But we didn't question the way others around us did. You
aren't a whole person if you don't have a job, right ? When I was
pregnant, I never even thought about the possibility to stop working.
Few weeks after his birth, I introduced my demand for a parental leave
because I wasn't ready to put him in daycare at 3 months old, as most of
the people here in Belgium do. And when it ended, I went back to work,
in tears.
The same day -the morning he was expected to start daycare- he was ill
for the first time. So my husband stayed with him, and Gilles started
the following week. I can't even imagine how stressful these 9 months
have been for him. And the worst part is he did try to tell us how hard
it was : he cried when my husband left him there in the morning.
Everybody told us it was normal... I don't know why we have been so
blind.
And one day I have been fired (because I wasn't willing anymore to worofk in the evenings and weekends as I did before Gilles birth !) and
it opened my eyes. When we told people I would stay at home, most of
them predicted me boredom and unhapiness. But these almost three years
(especially since I discovered radical unschooling) at home have been
the most happiest and interesting times of my life.
>> Putting him in daycare - which you probably couldn't avoid at the time, Iget that! - may have set him up to be really anxious and unhappy at the
thought of you leaving him for any length of time. That's something
he'll eventually grow out of without being pushed, but for him to grow
out of it (and not... traumatized into numb acceptance) he needs you to
support him and be there for him - literally "there" where he is, not
trying to get away and do grown-up things without him.
*************
Thank you for reminding me this.
I am glad to have posted my questions. Thank you to all the people who took the time to answer. I now can see how I'm still influenced by traditional parenting's ideas. And how Gilles need us even more than what I thought.
Colienne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Colienne de Walque
>> You can't change him. But you can make life more comfortable or more uncomfortable for him.**********
When we cancelled our restaurant last month, my mom said something like "Gilles can't be the one who decides everything" - it was said out of concern for our couple/social life.
This phrase pops up in my head when we have to give up something (like holidays for example) because of Gilles. I see I have written "we have to" : it is because I feel we don't have the choice. This thought usually leads to resentment.
I would like to get rid of that idea. But I'm not able to articulate why it is not true. A part of me still thinks that yes, Gilles can't be the one who decides everything. Could someone help me ?
Thank you,
Colienne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Colienne de Walque <colienne.dewalque@...> wrote:
He's not deciding everything - he's a little child who needs his parents and is good at expressing that, but realistically, you're the one making these decisions. You can decided to leave him behind, put him in day-care or preschool - and you know that because you've done it.
>> When we cancelled our restaurant last month, my mom said something like "Gilles can't be the one who decides everything"******************
He's not deciding everything - he's a little child who needs his parents and is good at expressing that, but realistically, you're the one making these decisions. You can decided to leave him behind, put him in day-care or preschool - and you know that because you've done it.
> >> You can't change him. But you can make life more comfortable or more uncomfortable for him.- it was said out of concern for our couple/social life.
> **********
>
> When we cancelled our restaurant last month, my mom said something like "Gilles can't be the one who decides everything"
>
> This phrase pops up in my head when we have to give up something (like holidays for example) because of Gilles. I see I have written "we have to" : it is because I feel we don't have the choice. This thought usually leads to resentment.
>
> I would like to get rid of that idea. But I'm not able to articulate why it is not true. A part of me still thinks that yes, Gilles can't be the one who decides everything. Could someone help me ?
>
> Thank you,
> Colienne
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Meredith
Woops, I'm on my laptop today and forgot it's tricks - sorry about the unedited half post.
Anyway, that's something you can say if you want a "come back" - "he's Not deciding, I am" - although it may come across as a bit confrontational. You could also simply agree with the statement "you're right, I can't" and even do it in a sweet voice which lets the other person think they've "won" or made you think. And then do what you're going to do anyway.
I went through this when Ray was little - he had suuuuuch big needs for attention, it was exhausting. But I had also seen what happened when he didn't get enough attention, when he was told to wait for what he needed, when we tried to make it "fair" for adults and other kids. And what happened was that when his needs weren't met we spent just as much time and energy on him, dealing with his outbursts and meltdowns - if anything, it took More energy to deal with all that drama. Being sensitive to his needs reduced all our stress levels and gave all of us more choices - they just weren't the same choices as a family with an easier child.
In that sense, wishing your kid wouldn't cause you such difficulty is like wishing you had a different child. Focus on appreciating the child you have - what's special and wonderful about him? When you're starting to feel resentful, think about those things and find your way back to loving your child for who he is, rather than who you'd like him to be.
---Meredith
>"Gilles can't be the one who decides everything"He's not deciding everything - he's a little child who needs his parents and is good at expressing that, but realistically, you're the one making these decisions. You can decided to leave him behind, put him in day-care or preschool - and you know that because you've done it.
Anyway, that's something you can say if you want a "come back" - "he's Not deciding, I am" - although it may come across as a bit confrontational. You could also simply agree with the statement "you're right, I can't" and even do it in a sweet voice which lets the other person think they've "won" or made you think. And then do what you're going to do anyway.
>>I see I have written "we have to" : it is because I feel we don't have the choice. This thought usually leads to resentment.***********************
I went through this when Ray was little - he had suuuuuch big needs for attention, it was exhausting. But I had also seen what happened when he didn't get enough attention, when he was told to wait for what he needed, when we tried to make it "fair" for adults and other kids. And what happened was that when his needs weren't met we spent just as much time and energy on him, dealing with his outbursts and meltdowns - if anything, it took More energy to deal with all that drama. Being sensitive to his needs reduced all our stress levels and gave all of us more choices - they just weren't the same choices as a family with an easier child.
In that sense, wishing your kid wouldn't cause you such difficulty is like wishing you had a different child. Focus on appreciating the child you have - what's special and wonderful about him? When you're starting to feel resentful, think about those things and find your way back to loving your child for who he is, rather than who you'd like him to be.
---Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 6, 2012, at 5:18 AM, Colienne de Walque wrote:
Every choice in life has pros and cons. When people shut the door to the choices with the cons they don't want to put up with and declares them "not choices", they can end up feeling trapped into one option.
Every day you don't empty the bank account and take off for Tahiti is a day you've chosen to be with your family.
Gilles's choices are limited by being small and powerless. His meeting his needs is dependent on the choices you make.
You have the power to manipulate your schedule and how the day flows. Gilles doesn't. How his day flows depends on your choices.
In 5 years life will be different. You'll be able to go to restaurants happily as a couple or while he happily plays with someone. You will be happier right now if you can let go of wanting what isn't reasonable right now and instead turn to reveling in what you can't have 5 years from now. 5 years from now that 4 yo boy will be gone and replaced by a very different 9 yo. You get to choose whether those days are as happy as your choices can make them, or whether they're peppered with times when you've chosen to make him unhappy.
The more he trusts that his well-being is a priority with you, the more secure of a 9 yo he'll be.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> This phrase pops up in my head when we have to give up somethingYou do have the choice to go or not go.
> (like holidays for example) because of Gilles. I see I have written "we have to" :
> it is because I feel we don't have the choice. This thought usually leads to resentment.
Every choice in life has pros and cons. When people shut the door to the choices with the cons they don't want to put up with and declares them "not choices", they can end up feeling trapped into one option.
Every day you don't empty the bank account and take off for Tahiti is a day you've chosen to be with your family.
Gilles's choices are limited by being small and powerless. His meeting his needs is dependent on the choices you make.
You have the power to manipulate your schedule and how the day flows. Gilles doesn't. How his day flows depends on your choices.
In 5 years life will be different. You'll be able to go to restaurants happily as a couple or while he happily plays with someone. You will be happier right now if you can let go of wanting what isn't reasonable right now and instead turn to reveling in what you can't have 5 years from now. 5 years from now that 4 yo boy will be gone and replaced by a very different 9 yo. You get to choose whether those days are as happy as your choices can make them, or whether they're peppered with times when you've chosen to make him unhappy.
The more he trusts that his well-being is a priority with you, the more secure of a 9 yo he'll be.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
He's not deciding everything. But he has some say. And life with a whole new human being that you brought into the mix isn't the same as life before. No matter what you mom says or thinks.
Nance
Nance
--- In [email protected], Colienne de Walque <colienne.dewalque@...> wrote:
>
> >> You can't change him. But you can make life more comfortable or more uncomfortable for him.
> **********
>
> When we cancelled our restaurant last month, my mom said something like "Gilles can't be the one who decides everything" - it was said out of concern for our couple/social life.
>
> This phrase pops up in my head when we have to give up something (like holidays for example) because of Gilles. I see I have written "we have to" : it is because I feel we don't have the choice. This thought usually leads to resentment.
>
> I would like to get rid of that idea. But I'm not able to articulate why it is not true. A part of me still thinks that yes, Gilles can't be the one who decides everything. Could someone help me ?
>
> Thank you,
> Colienne
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Debra Rossing
> He's not deciding everything. But he has some say. And life with a whole new human being that you brought into the mix isn't the same as life before. No matter what you mom says or thinks.Nance
Exactly! Same as when one is in a relationship with another adult - they have a say in things. Of course, that can be kind of fraught as well, trying to figure out where to spend holidays and such. The difference is, people tend to be more okay (not always all okay) with someone saying "we're going to the in-laws' for X holiday and we'll come over for Y holiday" because it's two adults involved. They're not used to, comfortable with, the situation when a child, especially a small child, is treated as a fully human person with preferences and opinions, likes and dislikes, needs and wants. Children are expected to be simply 'baggage' that gets carted about without a say in the matter and they are to be quiet and behave 'nicely' and deal with it. Any adult who was treated that way would be long gone.
Deb R
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mitrisue
--- In [email protected], Colienne de Walque
-=- This phrase pops up in my head when we have to give up something (like holidays for example) because of Gilles. I see I have written "we have to" : it is because I feel we don't have the choice. This thought usually leads to resentment.
I would like to get rid of that idea. But I'm not able to articulate why it is not true. A part of me still thinks that yes, Gilles can't be the one who decides everything. Could someone help me ? -=-
One of my personal challenges is feeling resentment when I'm defining a situation as me not getting my own way. If I redefine what "my way" is, as in how would I really like things to be, I remember that "my way" is family harmony. I can pursue my own self-interest (and society supports me in doing this) in search of what I think I want right now, but it really never feels good. What I want is for everything to be in balance. When I ignore imbalances, it never pays off. Remembering that helps.
Sometimes it helps me to think of my kids' strong preferences as weather. Am I going to resent the raindrops for coming down? No point, really. Weather comes, and weather changes. The best possible thing for me to do is to make peace with the weather. Does weather run my life? It certainly influences it, but I always have options.
Julie
-=- This phrase pops up in my head when we have to give up something (like holidays for example) because of Gilles. I see I have written "we have to" : it is because I feel we don't have the choice. This thought usually leads to resentment.
I would like to get rid of that idea. But I'm not able to articulate why it is not true. A part of me still thinks that yes, Gilles can't be the one who decides everything. Could someone help me ? -=-
One of my personal challenges is feeling resentment when I'm defining a situation as me not getting my own way. If I redefine what "my way" is, as in how would I really like things to be, I remember that "my way" is family harmony. I can pursue my own self-interest (and society supports me in doing this) in search of what I think I want right now, but it really never feels good. What I want is for everything to be in balance. When I ignore imbalances, it never pays off. Remembering that helps.
Sometimes it helps me to think of my kids' strong preferences as weather. Am I going to resent the raindrops for coming down? No point, really. Weather comes, and weather changes. The best possible thing for me to do is to make peace with the weather. Does weather run my life? It certainly influences it, but I always have options.
Julie
Colienne de Walque
I'm not sure it is OK to say thank you to every person who replied (I don't want to pollute the list !) so I will say it only once. Thank you to all : what you have written helps me so much !
you've chosen to make him unhappy.
***************
What about a sibling ? My husband and I have an argument on this subject every six months since Gilles is 2.
Here is the pattern : my husband asks me when I think we could have a baby - I say I don't know when I will be ready... what I know is that I'm not yet ready, in part because I would be overwhelmed with two young children and in part because I feel Gilles is not ready - he replies that he doesn't want a baby right now but it is hard for him not to know when I will be ready, that he feels powerless because he has no idea if it will be in 3 months or in 3 years, that he doesn't want to be an old dad (he's 34, I'm 32) and that if I'm waiting for Gilles to be ready we will never have a second child.
I do want another child but I have always felt it would be a huge betrayal for Gilles. A few months ago, after one of these arguments with my husband, I thought it would be a good idea to prepare Gilles about siblings and told him he would maybe one day have a little sister/brother. He replied "I don't want a baby" and as I asked why he replied he didn't want a baby to nurse, sleep in our family-bed or play with his toys. During weeks he told me stories where babies were cut into pieces and once in a store with an aisle full of baby dolls he told me we didn't need a baby... we could just buy a doll. After that, I stopped talking about babies with him.
There is another thing. I have big insecurities about my ability to have
another child. When I was anorexic, several people -including doctors-
told me I would never be able to have children. It haunts me... even if
my gynecologist ensured me there was no reason I couldn't have
another baby. So when my husband insists so much I find myself thinking "what if I'm not able to be pregnant again, it's maybe better no to wait too long to be sure we have a baby before it's too late" and I don't know what to think anymore...
Can children be ready for a sibling ? Do people who choose to have an only do so because they don't want to hurt their child ? How can people decide to have another child if they know it will hurt the first one ? Do they think the advantages of having a sibling are worth the hurt and then try to make it as smooth as possible for their first child ?
Colienne
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>> You get to choose whether those days are as happy asyour choices can make them, or whether they're peppered with times when
you've chosen to make him unhappy.
***************
What about a sibling ? My husband and I have an argument on this subject every six months since Gilles is 2.
Here is the pattern : my husband asks me when I think we could have a baby - I say I don't know when I will be ready... what I know is that I'm not yet ready, in part because I would be overwhelmed with two young children and in part because I feel Gilles is not ready - he replies that he doesn't want a baby right now but it is hard for him not to know when I will be ready, that he feels powerless because he has no idea if it will be in 3 months or in 3 years, that he doesn't want to be an old dad (he's 34, I'm 32) and that if I'm waiting for Gilles to be ready we will never have a second child.
I do want another child but I have always felt it would be a huge betrayal for Gilles. A few months ago, after one of these arguments with my husband, I thought it would be a good idea to prepare Gilles about siblings and told him he would maybe one day have a little sister/brother. He replied "I don't want a baby" and as I asked why he replied he didn't want a baby to nurse, sleep in our family-bed or play with his toys. During weeks he told me stories where babies were cut into pieces and once in a store with an aisle full of baby dolls he told me we didn't need a baby... we could just buy a doll. After that, I stopped talking about babies with him.
There is another thing. I have big insecurities about my ability to have
another child. When I was anorexic, several people -including doctors-
told me I would never be able to have children. It haunts me... even if
my gynecologist ensured me there was no reason I couldn't have
another baby. So when my husband insists so much I find myself thinking "what if I'm not able to be pregnant again, it's maybe better no to wait too long to be sure we have a baby before it's too late" and I don't know what to think anymore...
Can children be ready for a sibling ? Do people who choose to have an only do so because they don't want to hurt their child ? How can people decide to have another child if they know it will hurt the first one ? Do they think the advantages of having a sibling are worth the hurt and then try to make it as smooth as possible for their first child ?
Colienne
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[email protected]
If you're not ready, don't. For everyone's sake. If you figure all of this out, then consider it again.
Nance
Nance
--- In [email protected], Colienne de Walque <colienne.dewalque@...> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure it is OK to say thank you to every person who replied (I don't want to pollute the list !) so I will say it only once. Thank you to all : what you have written helps me so much !
>
>
> >> You get to choose whether those days are as happy as
> your choices can make them, or whether they're peppered with times when
> you've chosen to make him unhappy.
> ***************
>
> What about a sibling ? My husband and I have an argument on this subject every six months since Gilles is 2.
>
>
> Here is the pattern : my husband asks me when I think we could have a baby - I say I don't know when I will be ready... what I know is that I'm not yet ready, in part because I would be overwhelmed with two young children and in part because I feel Gilles is not ready - he replies that he doesn't want a baby right now but it is hard for him not to know when I will be ready, that he feels powerless because he has no idea if it will be in 3 months or in 3 years, that he doesn't want to be an old dad (he's 34, I'm 32) and that if I'm waiting for Gilles to be ready we will never have a second child.
>
> I do want another child but I have always felt it would be a huge betrayal for Gilles. A few months ago, after one of these arguments with my husband, I thought it would be a good idea to prepare Gilles about siblings and told him he would maybe one day have a little sister/brother. He replied "I don't want a baby" and as I asked why he replied he didn't want a baby to nurse, sleep in our family-bed or play with his toys. During weeks he told me stories where babies were cut into pieces and once in a store with an aisle full of baby dolls he told me we didn't need a baby... we could just buy a doll. After that, I stopped talking about babies with him.
>
> There is another thing. I have big insecurities about my ability to have
> another child. When I was anorexic, several people -including doctors-
> told me I would never be able to have children. It haunts me... even if
> my gynecologist ensured me there was no reason I couldn't have
> another baby. So when my husband insists so much I find myself thinking "what if I'm not able to be pregnant again, it's maybe better no to wait too long to be sure we have a baby before it's too late" and I don't know what to think anymore...
>
> Can children be ready for a sibling ? Do people who choose to have an only do so because they don't want to hurt their child ? How can people decide to have another child if they know it will hurt the first one ? Do they think the advantages of having a sibling are worth the hurt and then try to make it as smooth as possible for their first child ?
>
> Colienne
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Meredith
Colienne de Walque <colienne.dewalque@...> wrote:
Those sound like pretty good reasons to me. Being overwhelmed doesn't make for good decisions. And when you have a high-needs kid, putting his needs first can make a big, big difference in the peace of the whole family... but that's really hard to do with a new baby on hand. I chose not to have a child at one point when Ray was still pretty volatile, in part because of his needs.
I think it's possible not to realize how much it can hurt. Sometimes it's not obvious beforehand. It's Good that you've had some really clear, direct feedback from your son on the topic! I was lucky to have really clear messages from Ray that he needed a lot of very focused, individual attention when he was younger and would likely have a hard time "sharing" a parent. But I have No Idea how Morgan would have reacted to the idea of a younger sibling - and had I wanted one, I likely wouldn't have known until the baby was in the world.
There's a big, Big developmental shift around age 8 when kids who've been very needy often become a lot more secure - can you wait that long? If you want a hard number to work with, use that. Most likely, he'll be ready then. If that's too long, then rather than playing the "is he ready yet?" game, it might be better to start assuming he Won't be ready and go from there - start asking how people have dealt with high-needs, jealous siblings.
---Meredith
>> Here is the pattern : my husband asks me when I think we could have a baby - I say I don't know when I will be ready... what I know is that I'm not yet ready, in part because I would be overwhelmed with two young children and in part because I feel Gilles is not ready****************
Those sound like pretty good reasons to me. Being overwhelmed doesn't make for good decisions. And when you have a high-needs kid, putting his needs first can make a big, big difference in the peace of the whole family... but that's really hard to do with a new baby on hand. I chose not to have a child at one point when Ray was still pretty volatile, in part because of his needs.
> Can children be ready for a sibling ?I'd never really thought about it in terms of readiness but kids can definitely be a poor fit for home with a baby in it. That's something that will change with age, as your son gains more in terms of empathy and a sense of perspective about the world. Hmm, on another list there's a thread about readiness and being gentle with animals... I think being ready to have a baby in the house is similar to That kind of readiness. If your child isn't ready, he'll need a loooooot of support to handle being around the new baby - maybe more support from you than he needs now because he'll be under a lot of stress.
>Do people who choose to have an only do so because they don't want to hurt their child ?Some people only want one child. There are plenty of parents of onlies who only wanted the one. I really only wanted one, myself. In a sense, I had Mo because Ray's a step-child and not "really" mine - that sounds harsh, maybe, but it's a fact I had rubbed in my face many times over the years. When Mo was born, Ray's mom wanted him to come live with her, so I got to have an only again for a few years, and that was nice in some ways even if it was painful in others.
>>How can people decide to have another child if they know it will hurt the first one ?****************
I think it's possible not to realize how much it can hurt. Sometimes it's not obvious beforehand. It's Good that you've had some really clear, direct feedback from your son on the topic! I was lucky to have really clear messages from Ray that he needed a lot of very focused, individual attention when he was younger and would likely have a hard time "sharing" a parent. But I have No Idea how Morgan would have reacted to the idea of a younger sibling - and had I wanted one, I likely wouldn't have known until the baby was in the world.
>>if I'm waiting for Gilles to be ready we will never have a second child*******************
There's a big, Big developmental shift around age 8 when kids who've been very needy often become a lot more secure - can you wait that long? If you want a hard number to work with, use that. Most likely, he'll be ready then. If that's too long, then rather than playing the "is he ready yet?" game, it might be better to start assuming he Won't be ready and go from there - start asking how people have dealt with high-needs, jealous siblings.
---Meredith
Colienne de Walque
>> Putting him in daycare - which you probably couldn't avoid at the time, I get that! - may have set him up to be really anxious and unhappy at the thought of you leaving him for any length of time. That's somethinghe'll eventually grow out of without being pushed, but for him to grow
out of it (and not... traumatized into numb acceptance) he needs you to
support him and be there for him - literally "there" where he is, not
trying to get away and do grown-up things without him. If he's okay
being with dad, too, that's a bonus, but it's really common for kids to
prefer mom to dad until their older.
****************
Something happened last week that made me think about that.
Gilles and I were alone downstairs and he began to kick me, which is unusual. He said that he didn't want to be with me and that he wanted to hurt me. As he sometimes says the opposite of what he thinks when he is overwhelmed, I asked more questions... and he explained that he didn't want to stay alone with his dad, that he didn't want me to leave him.
I told him that I hadn't realized it was so painful for him, and how much I regretted to have put him in daycare when he was a baby. When I said that he cried a lot : it was heart-breaking. As I began to cry too, he told me he didn't want to talk anymore. It is something I will remember because it is not the first time : if I cry he stops talking.
As I did these (restaurants with friends) only every 2-3 months, and he seemed to play happily with his dad while I was gone, I thought it was OK. Now (thanks to your post) I understand that it reactivated profound fears, and that it was probably worse the few times we left him with another person for an evening out.
Colienne
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Colienne de Walque
>> I think being ready to have a baby in the house is similar toThat kind of readiness. If your child isn't ready, he'll need a loooooot of support to handle being around the new baby - maybe more support
from you than he needs now because he'll be under a lot of stress.
**************
I showed your answer to my husband. We haven't talked about it yet (it is sometimes difficult to find the time with Gilles staying up until midnight and talking a lot !) but I know this phrase made him think.
As he's working full-time out of the home he doesn't always realize how challenging some of my days are. But... I think he is more aware now after his week off : he told me it was more exhausting to stay at home than to go working !
I think the difference between me and my husband is that he would like to plan while I prefer to feel. I mean : if we plan I won't be able to feel I'm ready for a new baby. It is weird because most of the time I prefer planning too...
Colienne
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