Re: [unschoolingbasics] New To Group
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 26, 2012, at 5:17 AM, rosemary wrote:
You can just say he was up late with a laugh and a smile. Be polite. Doctors are required to report abuse so they do need to be alert. But they don't need detailed information about homeschooling or parenting. If he's always nosy, find another doctor. You're paying him. He's not your overseer.
Second, if that doctor doesn't have late afternoon appointments, find one who does.
If not, let your son know there's an appointment the next day. Ask him how many hours of sleep he thinks he'll need. And ask him how soon before the appointment he wants to wake up. Then count backwards to what time he'd need to go to bed to get that. But don't make him! See this as information for him to make decisions from. When the hour rolls around, he'll at least be aware. Then he can choose whether to keep doing what he's doing and be sleepy or go to bed so he can be not sleepy.
Third, how often does he need to go to the doctor? Are these well kid visits? Or does he have health issues? Are they necessary?
If it's the dentist you mean, there are some teeth brushing ideas at:
http://tinyurl.com/48lfudp
Would you want to crawl out of bed to go to something you didn't like and didn't see the point of?
Some day, removed from an appointment time, ask him about ways to help him wake up on the days there's something he wants to do in the morning.
Some suggestions are easing him awake. Bring him breakfast in bed and eat together was you read to him. Or turn the TV on for him to watch something he enjoys. (Make sure it ends before you have to leave!) Find sweet ways to get done what he can't do himself.
These are cases of setting him up to fail. Don't do that.
Can you schedule really early before he goes to bed? Very late in the afternoon? How necessary are these appointments?
If you really must go, prepare him in advance. Be aware that you're inconveniencing him. What would you do for a friend if you found it necessary to inconvenience them? Think about why you would do that for a friend and not your son. And think about how you son might feel about being treated differently.
Go some place before or after. Schedule an outing that day that *he* wants to do. Tie it in with buying him something. Don't see it as a bribe but as compensation or a treat for doing something unfun.
Why does he need to interact with other kids? Don't you think if he needed to he would?
The more you lecture, the more he'll shut his ears. And it sounds like the one who needs to be "listening" is you. His actions, and perhaps his words, are saying he doesn't need what you're telling him he needs. One quick way of tearing at a relationship is to tell someone you know what they need better than they do. If you had a friend like that, wouldn't you try to avoid them?
Joyce
> but now I just think he likes staying up at night.It will help to see this not as a like but as how his body is. He's not "just" choosing to stay up all night. He's listening to his body. It may shift with age. It may not.
> I have taken him to the doctor when he hasn't gotten a lot of sleepFirst, there's no reason to get into homeschooling with a doctor. Answer questions as simply as you can.
> and they gave me a hard time on why I shouldn't be homeschooling
> so he can go to school and be like other kids that sleep at night, etc
You can just say he was up late with a laugh and a smile. Be polite. Doctors are required to report abuse so they do need to be alert. But they don't need detailed information about homeschooling or parenting. If he's always nosy, find another doctor. You're paying him. He's not your overseer.
Second, if that doctor doesn't have late afternoon appointments, find one who does.
If not, let your son know there's an appointment the next day. Ask him how many hours of sleep he thinks he'll need. And ask him how soon before the appointment he wants to wake up. Then count backwards to what time he'd need to go to bed to get that. But don't make him! See this as information for him to make decisions from. When the hour rolls around, he'll at least be aware. Then he can choose whether to keep doing what he's doing and be sleepy or go to bed so he can be not sleepy.
Third, how often does he need to go to the doctor? Are these well kid visits? Or does he have health issues? Are they necessary?
If it's the dentist you mean, there are some teeth brushing ideas at:
http://tinyurl.com/48lfudp
> Not to mention canceling appointments because he doesn't want to get up.Would you repeatedly schedule appointments for your husband several hours before he would normally wake? Say at 4 or 5 AM? Would that sound reasonable to do?
Would you want to crawl out of bed to go to something you didn't like and didn't see the point of?
Some day, removed from an appointment time, ask him about ways to help him wake up on the days there's something he wants to do in the morning.
Some suggestions are easing him awake. Bring him breakfast in bed and eat together was you read to him. Or turn the TV on for him to watch something he enjoys. (Make sure it ends before you have to leave!) Find sweet ways to get done what he can't do himself.
> And myself missing appointments because of this too.Would you want him to repeatedly schedule appointments for a time when you're normally asleep and then have him wake you up to drive him? Wouldn't you think that's rude and inconsiderate?
These are cases of setting him up to fail. Don't do that.
Can you schedule really early before he goes to bed? Very late in the afternoon? How necessary are these appointments?
If you really must go, prepare him in advance. Be aware that you're inconveniencing him. What would you do for a friend if you found it necessary to inconvenience them? Think about why you would do that for a friend and not your son. And think about how you son might feel about being treated differently.
> I've tried explaining to him it is important to get check ups, but you know, heNo. It's not up to him to understand. This is something you want for him. So it's up to you to remove as many obstacles and to make it as enjoyable as you can.
> really doesn't think it is important to him. So any advice on trying to get him
> to understand why he needs to go?
Go some place before or after. Schedule an outing that day that *he* wants to do. Tie it in with buying him something. Don't see it as a bribe but as compensation or a treat for doing something unfun.
> Plus the time he sleeps is when our local homeschoolIt's better to listen to your son than to experts or conventional wisdom ;-)
> group meets, no one we know has children, so I am often
> lectured on him needing to interact with other kids.
Why does he need to interact with other kids? Don't you think if he needed to he would?
The more you lecture, the more he'll shut his ears. And it sounds like the one who needs to be "listening" is you. His actions, and perhaps his words, are saying he doesn't need what you're telling him he needs. One quick way of tearing at a relationship is to tell someone you know what they need better than they do. If you had a friend like that, wouldn't you try to avoid them?
Joyce
Debra Rossing
Since he was born, DS has been on a 26 hour 'day'. So, sometimes he's on a 'day shift' where he's awake from dawn until maybe 8 pm. Other times, he falls asleep at dawn and wakes up around 4 pm (depending on how much sleep he's needing). We make sure that we schedule any appointments in consultation with him. I'll remind him a couple days before regarding the appointment/schedule - enough time that we can cancel/reschedule if need be without any penalty. Then, we'll discuss when we need to leave to get there at the appropriate time, when he wants to be awakened if he's still asleep, and any other prep (for example, does he need to eat first or is it short enough that we can go and then get food afterward). I wake him slowly (My mom taught me this stuff) by sitting next to him and quietly begin speaking while I rub his back, legs, feet - "good morning it's 7:59 it's kinda cloudy now but the forecast says sunny and warm today I've got fresh clothing here at the foot of the bed for you we will be leaving in 35 minutes I'm going to go brush my teeth and I'll be back in 5 minutes..." then I go, do my thing, and go back. Repeat. By then I usually add in things like "where are your eyeballs? I don't see them. Okay, how about a big stretch?" and so on. Usually, he'll start laughing as he tries to pretend he's still asleep and I get sillier (but I cut off the silly quickly if that's not what he's wanting just then). I'll usually ask what he wants for food and go prep that while he dresses. When he's awake "all night" he's often asleep from dawn until close to dinner, so that leaves a few late afternoon hours when an appointment is possible (dr, dds, etc).
There have been times (for example, at church on Sunday morning) when he's nodded off on my shoulder. I simply keep us both comfortable and make sure he doesn't start snoring or anything (LOL). If someone comments on it later, I just smile and say "he had a late night. That's a lovely dress/necklace - how are your grandkids/dogs/tomatoes?..." We generally try, as much as possible to kind of see ahead as to when he'll be shifted onto a daytime schedule and make plans for those times (generally, about a week or two, sometimes more, rarely less than a week) if something is a daytime thing. When he was younger (at nigh-14, he can stay home alone more than when he was 6 or 7), if there was a situation that was time-locked (both DH and I had to be somewhere at a specific time), then we'd do whatever we could to make it easier on DS - yes, there were times when he sat in church with his headphones on playing Pokemon on his Nintendo DS (and yes, there were occasional odd looks but I'd just smile back, then pointedly turn back to paying attention to the sermon).
Our dr. doesn't 'get' homeschooling but he's satisfied with what we answer, things like "does he get to be with kids?" "Oh sure, he was just involved in a drama skit with the other teens/pre-teens at church" Not a whole litany of every hour or anything, just a confident "yes" type answer. Never been questioned too closely, really, because DH, DS, and I all see the same dr. - a GP - and he knows us well enough to know there's nothing 'odd' going on (and he knows that I can quote the education statutes from memory LOL).
Oh, and once he was about 7 or 8, he stopped wanting to go to local homeschool activities - that's when they started getting a lot more 'schooly' and he just would get frustrated at the restrictions on the other kids. One family in particular had 3 boys, twins about a year older than DS and a singleton about a year younger, which made for a great 'boy pack'. Kids got along great at park days so we set up a weekly get together at their house (by their preference). Worked great for about 2 years - the kids would roam their property, hubby and the other mom would play Scrabble and drink tea for a couple hours then as dinner time approached they'd say their goodbyes and plan for the following week. But, once it got to where the twins couldn't play because they hadn't finished their 'school' assignments, the 'shiny' kinda wore off for DS.
Deb R
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There have been times (for example, at church on Sunday morning) when he's nodded off on my shoulder. I simply keep us both comfortable and make sure he doesn't start snoring or anything (LOL). If someone comments on it later, I just smile and say "he had a late night. That's a lovely dress/necklace - how are your grandkids/dogs/tomatoes?..." We generally try, as much as possible to kind of see ahead as to when he'll be shifted onto a daytime schedule and make plans for those times (generally, about a week or two, sometimes more, rarely less than a week) if something is a daytime thing. When he was younger (at nigh-14, he can stay home alone more than when he was 6 or 7), if there was a situation that was time-locked (both DH and I had to be somewhere at a specific time), then we'd do whatever we could to make it easier on DS - yes, there were times when he sat in church with his headphones on playing Pokemon on his Nintendo DS (and yes, there were occasional odd looks but I'd just smile back, then pointedly turn back to paying attention to the sermon).
Our dr. doesn't 'get' homeschooling but he's satisfied with what we answer, things like "does he get to be with kids?" "Oh sure, he was just involved in a drama skit with the other teens/pre-teens at church" Not a whole litany of every hour or anything, just a confident "yes" type answer. Never been questioned too closely, really, because DH, DS, and I all see the same dr. - a GP - and he knows us well enough to know there's nothing 'odd' going on (and he knows that I can quote the education statutes from memory LOL).
Oh, and once he was about 7 or 8, he stopped wanting to go to local homeschool activities - that's when they started getting a lot more 'schooly' and he just would get frustrated at the restrictions on the other kids. One family in particular had 3 boys, twins about a year older than DS and a singleton about a year younger, which made for a great 'boy pack'. Kids got along great at park days so we set up a weekly get together at their house (by their preference). Worked great for about 2 years - the kids would roam their property, hubby and the other mom would play Scrabble and drink tea for a couple hours then as dinner time approached they'd say their goodbyes and plan for the following week. But, once it got to where the twins couldn't play because they hadn't finished their 'school' assignments, the 'shiny' kinda wore off for DS.
Deb R
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Meredith
"rosemary" <rosemarytrammell@...> wrote:
If there's a particular reason someone needs to go to the doctor, it could help to schedule some other, fun thing during the day. Give him a reason to get up - or stay up, if he'd rather. Ray kept "vampire hours" in his early teens and would sometimes just stay up round the clock if he wanted to do something during the day. In any case, I wouldn't mention to strangers (like doctors) that your son is up nights. If he's tired, you could say "he was up late" and leave it at that.
If it's just "regular check ups" though, you might want to re-evaluate how and when you do them. Specifically ask the office if they have early or late time-slots open - some offices will have one late evening a week for working parents, for instances. And if it's a regular family doctor, do you really need to go more than once a year? That doesn't seem hard to work into a schedule, especially if you can make a big, fun day of it.
Make the fact that he's a night owl an opportunity to do things at night. Look around for coffee shops and bookstores with evening events, do some exploring of your local community.
---Meredith
>I've tried explaining to him it is important to get check ups, but you know, he really doesn't think it is important to him. So any advice on trying to get him to understand why he needs to go?**************
If there's a particular reason someone needs to go to the doctor, it could help to schedule some other, fun thing during the day. Give him a reason to get up - or stay up, if he'd rather. Ray kept "vampire hours" in his early teens and would sometimes just stay up round the clock if he wanted to do something during the day. In any case, I wouldn't mention to strangers (like doctors) that your son is up nights. If he's tired, you could say "he was up late" and leave it at that.
If it's just "regular check ups" though, you might want to re-evaluate how and when you do them. Specifically ask the office if they have early or late time-slots open - some offices will have one late evening a week for working parents, for instances. And if it's a regular family doctor, do you really need to go more than once a year? That doesn't seem hard to work into a schedule, especially if you can make a big, fun day of it.
> Plus the time he sleeps is when our local homeschool group meetsAre there things he wants to do with the homeschool group? If there's something specific and interesting, that's usually a better incentive than "there will be kids and stuff... you know... playing...". Maybe you can organize or host evening meetings now and then - star gazing, catching fireflies, a "ghost walk" through a graveyard, glow-in-the-dark play, listening to owls, looking for bats... you could have a monthly event organized around doing something in the dark. Or host a movie night or games night. Plenty of homeschoolers are night-owls, not just unschoolers.
Make the fact that he's a night owl an opportunity to do things at night. Look around for coffee shops and bookstores with evening events, do some exploring of your local community.
---Meredith
Cornelia
I'm very interested in this thread, because my son's hours of sleep/waking vary hugely, so I'm always looking for thoughts and advice. One thing that worries me is being out too late in the eyes of other people, who may think its odd for a child. My son is five, significantly younger, and I hold 9.30-10.30pm as a rough cut-off (in general) on week days, to keep our appearances fairly low-key. I do sometimes forget, mind you, especially as we live in New York, so there is often a lot open for a night owl. I wondered what you thought about that issue? Is that too late? How do you figure that out? When he was very little it didn't matter, but I don't want to draw negative attention to us, and don't know how likely that is.
Thanks,
Cornelia
Thanks,
Cornelia
Meredith
"Cornelia" <corneliablik@...> wrote:
It's really something to play by ear, and some of it, I think, depends on how much attention your son is likely to call to himself. If he's a pretty laid-back kid, reasonably polite and not likely to be rambunctious you can probably go out more and later. If he's pretty high-energy, or tends to be loud, that alone calls attention to kids and parents in a negative way.
---Meredith
> Is that too late? How do you figure that out? When he was very little it didn't matter, but I don't want to draw negative attention to us, and don't know how likely that is.***************
It's really something to play by ear, and some of it, I think, depends on how much attention your son is likely to call to himself. If he's a pretty laid-back kid, reasonably polite and not likely to be rambunctious you can probably go out more and later. If he's pretty high-energy, or tends to be loud, that alone calls attention to kids and parents in a negative way.
---Meredith
rosemary
--- In [email protected],
"Cornelia" <corneliablik@...> wrote:
I guess I was trying to find some acceptance somewhere. The posts here did help me see that I was off balance, I was putting my worries of 'what other people thought' before my main goal of what my son needs. That alone made me step back, relax, and think of things around his sleeping time because that is why we kept him out of 'public school' in the first so he could feel free to be himself.
"Cornelia" <corneliablik@...> wrote:
>but I don't want to draw negative attention to us>This was the main reason for my worry and stress, about my son's sleeping times.I get a lot of negative attention and advice from our families about his sleeping times and homeschooling him. Then my mistake on being to 'open' with his doctor, gave me more negative attention. Even when we went to the homeschool group, I got negative attention and advice for his sleeping. And that is why I posted my worries here.
I guess I was trying to find some acceptance somewhere. The posts here did help me see that I was off balance, I was putting my worries of 'what other people thought' before my main goal of what my son needs. That alone made me step back, relax, and think of things around his sleeping time because that is why we kept him out of 'public school' in the first so he could feel free to be himself.
Meredith
"rosemary" <rosemarytrammell@...> wrote:
Sometimes How you talk about home/unschooling can make a big difference. If you're very confident in what you say - forthright, but not over-explaining - it's possible to be a lot more "out" about homeschooling without getting more than some strange looks. I get strange looks, but for the most part, people don't mess with me - I give a very "sure" impression. People might not Agree with what I'm doing, but I clearly Know what I'm doing, if you see what I mean.
---Meredith
>I get a lot of negative attention and advice from our families about his sleeping times and homeschooling him. Then my mistake on being to 'open' with his doctor, gave me more negative attention.*************
Sometimes How you talk about home/unschooling can make a big difference. If you're very confident in what you say - forthright, but not over-explaining - it's possible to be a lot more "out" about homeschooling without getting more than some strange looks. I get strange looks, but for the most part, people don't mess with me - I give a very "sure" impression. People might not Agree with what I'm doing, but I clearly Know what I'm doing, if you see what I mean.
---Meredith
DorothyR
Im sure all kids are not created equal, but I remember being little, being that age and I loved being tucked in all safe at night and I could hear my parents out in the LR watching TV and talking amongst themselves- it felt very safe and I felt "taken care of" like I didn't have anything I had to do but just be snuggly. So, for me that worked. And then part of me wonders if little children are meant to just be somewhere dim and quiet, whether with parents or nearby parents, at a late hour. I also find it interesting, in terms of evolutionary biology or psychology. What did early humans do I wonder? I kind of bet, since the beginning of time, human adults like to have time to talk amongst themselves at night, and looked forward to the kids passing out. Maybe encouraged it...
--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> "Cornelia" <corneliablik@> wrote:
> > Is that too late? How do you figure that out? When he was very little it didn't matter, but I don't want to draw negative attention to us, and don't know how likely that is.
> ***************
>
> It's really something to play by ear, and some of it, I think, depends on how much attention your son is likely to call to himself. If he's a pretty laid-back kid, reasonably polite and not likely to be rambunctious you can probably go out more and later. If he's pretty high-energy, or tends to be loud, that alone calls attention to kids and parents in a negative way.
>
> ---Meredith
>
Meredith
"DorothyR" <npdkr27@...> wrote:
It helps a lot to step away from framing "children" as a homogeneous class and see individual human beings with specific needs and desires. Some people like to stay up later than others - their circadian rhythms run on a later schedule - and as children grow, their natural rhythms often change in unpredictable ways. Add to that the fact that different people need different things to settle into sleep and you really can't create a "one size fits all" picture of "what children need at bedtime".
Some people like to ease down into somnolence with dim lights and soft sounds, and for kids like that, parents can help by creating an evening quiet time. But that's not true of every child - it was for me, but not my brother, for instance, and my daughter is more like my brother in that regard; when she was little she actually needed to ramp Up before bed, do a lot of running around so she could relax and sleep. So we arranged the furniture so there was a nice "runway" in the house to accommodate her evening run. Nowadays (she's 10) if she needs more activity in the evenings she'll go out to her trampoline, but most nights she works on a project until she's tired and then goes to bed.
Actually, I used to live in a commune in the woods with minimal infrastructure, so I have a pretty good picture on what that kind of life was actually like ;) We didn't wait for the kids to go to sleep, the kids were a part of the community. We knew when they tended to get tired and each family figured out what worked for each child. In some families, one or both parents would take the child to the private space to settle cozily into sleep with some bedtime routine. Others, the kids hung out with the adults until they passed out - my stepson, Ray was one of those. We'd carry him to bed or settle him comfortably on a couch in the Main Cabin, cover him up, and be sure to be there when he awoke. There were variations, as some families had their private spaces in the Main Cabin and some in other buildings, but even when all the kids were close in age (and at one point we had three kids with birthdays within a couple months) there was a lot of variation in night time routines.
---Meredith
> part of me wonders if little children are meant to just be somewhere dim and quiet, whether with parents or nearby parents, at a late hour**************
It helps a lot to step away from framing "children" as a homogeneous class and see individual human beings with specific needs and desires. Some people like to stay up later than others - their circadian rhythms run on a later schedule - and as children grow, their natural rhythms often change in unpredictable ways. Add to that the fact that different people need different things to settle into sleep and you really can't create a "one size fits all" picture of "what children need at bedtime".
Some people like to ease down into somnolence with dim lights and soft sounds, and for kids like that, parents can help by creating an evening quiet time. But that's not true of every child - it was for me, but not my brother, for instance, and my daughter is more like my brother in that regard; when she was little she actually needed to ramp Up before bed, do a lot of running around so she could relax and sleep. So we arranged the furniture so there was a nice "runway" in the house to accommodate her evening run. Nowadays (she's 10) if she needs more activity in the evenings she'll go out to her trampoline, but most nights she works on a project until she's tired and then goes to bed.
>>I also find it interesting, in terms of evolutionary biology or psychology. What did early humans do I wonder? I kind of bet, since the beginning of time, human adults like to have time to talk amongst themselves at night, and looked forward to the kids passing out.***************
Actually, I used to live in a commune in the woods with minimal infrastructure, so I have a pretty good picture on what that kind of life was actually like ;) We didn't wait for the kids to go to sleep, the kids were a part of the community. We knew when they tended to get tired and each family figured out what worked for each child. In some families, one or both parents would take the child to the private space to settle cozily into sleep with some bedtime routine. Others, the kids hung out with the adults until they passed out - my stepson, Ray was one of those. We'd carry him to bed or settle him comfortably on a couch in the Main Cabin, cover him up, and be sure to be there when he awoke. There were variations, as some families had their private spaces in the Main Cabin and some in other buildings, but even when all the kids were close in age (and at one point we had three kids with birthdays within a couple months) there was a lot of variation in night time routines.
---Meredith
undermom
--- In [email protected], "DorothyR" <npdkr27@...> wrote:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201110/why-young-children-protest-bedtime-story-evolutionary-mismatch
"Bedtime protest is unique to Western and Westernized cultures. In all other cultures, infants and young children sleep in the same room and usually in the same bed with one or more adult caregivers, and bedtime protest is non-existent.[2]. What infants and young children protest, apparently, is not going to bed per se, but going to bed alone, in the dark, at night. When people in non-Western cultures hear about the Western practice of putting young children to bed in separate rooms from themselves, often without even an older sibling to sleep with, they are shocked. "The poor little kids!" they say. "How could their parents be so cruel?" Those who are most shocked are people in hunter-gatherer societies, for they know very well why young children protest against being left alone in the dark.[3]"
Check it out. :)
Deborah in IL
>Here ya go :)
>
>And then part of me wonders if little children are meant to just be somewhere dim and quiet, whether with parents or nearby parents, at a late hour. I also find it interesting, in terms of evolutionary biology or psychology. What did early humans do I wonder? I kind of bet, since the beginning of time, human adults like to have time to talk amongst themselves at night, and looked forward to the kids passing out. Maybe encouraged it...
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201110/why-young-children-protest-bedtime-story-evolutionary-mismatch
"Bedtime protest is unique to Western and Westernized cultures. In all other cultures, infants and young children sleep in the same room and usually in the same bed with one or more adult caregivers, and bedtime protest is non-existent.[2]. What infants and young children protest, apparently, is not going to bed per se, but going to bed alone, in the dark, at night. When people in non-Western cultures hear about the Western practice of putting young children to bed in separate rooms from themselves, often without even an older sibling to sleep with, they are shocked. "The poor little kids!" they say. "How could their parents be so cruel?" Those who are most shocked are people in hunter-gatherer societies, for they know very well why young children protest against being left alone in the dark.[3]"
Check it out. :)
Deborah in IL
Debra Rossing
> Im sure all kids are not created equal, but I remember being little, being that age and I loved being tucked in all safe at night and I could hear my >parents out in the LR watching TV and talking amongst themselves- it felt very safe and I felt "taken care of" like I didn't have anything I had to do but >just be snuggly.DS is almost 14 (just over a month shy) and we have a little routine for *my* bedtime (since I'm the one who has to get up in the morning and off to work). Doesn't matter if DS is sleepy or planning to sleep on the couch or in his room. We do a big hug and then I tuck him under a blanket on the couch (there's always at least one blanket there for whoever needs a bit of warm). He stretches and sticks his toes back out (did I mention he's maybe an inch and a half shorter than I am, and definitely longer than the slightly oversize loveseats in the living room?) I tuck them in. He sticks them out. I try to corral his feet under the blanket and they keep trying to escape. Eventually I 'catch' both feet, give a little squeeze/hug to them, kiss DS on the forehead and say goodnight. Sometimes he'll snuggle right down, other times he'll say goodnight and then pop back up to his laptop. It's not the staying tucked in or going to sleep then that's important, it's the interaction and connection that's happening.
Deb R
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